XSF Discussion - 2017-01-18

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  70. Steve Kille Putting notes within notes does not seem vital
  71. Steve Kille In the notes list, it would be ideal to sort XEPs in order, so you can quickly check if a given XEP is referenced
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  154. Flow Holger: Is that you: https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/User:Holger ?
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  179. Holger Flow: Nope, that's someone else.
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  189. goffi Hey, I'm checking python-omemo which use - if I'm not mistaken -, the old oloxotl based method for OMEMO: https://python-omemo.readthedocs.io/en/latest/xep-omemo.html
  190. goffi And I'm really surprised to see that the same namespace is used in current XEP: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0384.html
  191. dwd Axoilotl-based OMEMO was never submitted; but the namespace should probably have been bumped anyway.
  192. dwd Sorry - was submitted, but rejected.
  193. daniel goffi: I think this is actually just the docs that refer to that namespace
  194. daniel The actual implementation uses siacs namespace
  195. daniel As it should if it's using the signal protocol
  196. daniel Someone just blindly copied the xep into the docs
  197. goffi daniel: ah ok, that's good then, because if we do an implementation in SàT it will be with the current method (olm), and that will be a big issue with gajim or other using python-omemo
  198. goffi I'll open a ticket
  199. Zash Blindly copying the examples? :)
  200. intosi Examples Considered Harmful
  201. mathieui Zash, nobody does that!
  202. Zash "Considered Harmful" Considered Harmful
  203. intosi Moderated +1, It's True
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  208. Ge0rG daniel, you really should move forward with conversations to use the XEP namespace to get rid of the confusion. You'll need to support both anyway for the time being
  209. daniel Ge0rG: we can't just sed the namespace
  210. daniel There is no confusion. Siacs namespace means axolotl. Official namespace means olm
  211. Ge0rG daniel, siacs namespace isn't documented in the XEP, but widely deployed. Now you have created a de-facto standard, which other developers are following.
  212. Tobias Ge0rG, it's documented in the protoxep on the omemo website, not?
  213. Flow still, the current situation is suboptimal
  214. Ge0rG daniel, it's not easy, but it is only going to get harder from here
  215. Flow we have a xep, which either no one is going to implement because it is not what conversations does, or if somebody implements it, he/she would find out that it doesn't work with conversations
  216. Flow what georg said
  217. Zash These things are messy.
  218. Tobias Ge0rG, the thing is, there isn't a java lib for Olm yeta
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  220. Ge0rG Tobias, I can't imagine how that is not a de-facto standard.
  221. daniel Ge0rG: get me a Java implementation of olm and I can switch pretty quickly. I can also get the majority of the other clients to switch at roughly the same time. I'm in contact with all of them all their libraries are designed with modularity with a switch to olm already in mind
  222. daniel The olm/signal switch is extremly easy from an implementation standpoint
  223. Ge0rG daniel, being a developer myself, I tend not to believe this claim
  224. Flow Is there still a reason to use OLM, now that Moxie put double ratchet into the public domain?
  225. daniel Flow: this is one of the things I'd like to figure out before I do the switch
  226. Flow Why not have OMEMO use https://whispersystems.org/docs/specifications/doubleratchet/ ?
  227. daniel Flow: that's what we are currently checking
  228. daniel If that's feasible
  229. Flow daniel: I hope we can sort this things out at the summit
  230. Ge0rG daniel, you'll need to support both namespaces in order not to break older versions of the code. You can't just "flip the switch"
  231. daniel Ge0rG: hard switch and tell your user to update or gtfo
  232. Zash Someone say Flag Day? :)
  233. daniel I have absolutely no problem doing that
  234. Ge0rG daniel, but your users will. You are going to alternate your core audience.
  235. goffi it would be nice to sort is out yes, if we do an implemention it will be XEP version regardless of existing implementations
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  237. daniel Ge0rG: when did I ever care about my users
  238. Ge0rG *alienate
  239. Ge0rG daniel, I don't know. But I do care about the users of XMPP.
  240. daniel As long as the other clients are available they can simply upgrade
  241. daniel It's not like upgrading is hard
  242. Zash daniel: I hear you live in a world without long term support releases.
  243. Tobias there's no problem for Conversations to support axolotl OMEMO and olm OMEMO for a year or so and then dropping the axolotl one...it already supports OMEMO and OTR in parallel
  244. Tobias and GPG IIRC
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  246. daniel Zash: if someone pays me to do lts I'll happily do that. For now very few people even pay to provide any support at all
  247. Kev ISTM if daniel is happy for a hard-upgrade, then given this is switching from a 'non-standard' to 'standard' version, that's actually a good thing.
  248. Ge0rG Kev, so your position is standardization over UX? 😛
  249. ralphm Dear summiteers. I just sent an e-mail to the summit@xmpp.org mailinglist about the Summit/FOSDEM hotel. Please read and act on it ASAP.
  250. daniel Do I have to sign up for the list again if I have been subscribed last year?
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  252. Tobias it's the same as last year
  253. Zash I assume nobody went and removed all subscriptions
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  261. Kev Interesting. I should be subscribed to that list, but there's no mail come through.
  262. daniel Kev: that's what triggered me asking that question
  263. Kev Ge0rG: No. My position is that if daniel says that his users can and will trivially upgrade, along with other users of that namespace, I'm going to trust he knows what he's talking about.
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  265. Ge0rG daniel, Kev: maybe. But when I look at it from the user perspective, I see three issues: - how is user A supposed to figure out that he can't chat with B any more because of the upgrade? - how can A tell B to upgrade as well if they can't talk to each other? - who's going to delete the old pre-keys from PEP?
  266. mathieui Ge0rG, disco?
  267. Ge0rG mathieui, how is that going to solve any of the three? Maybe just a bit of #1.
  268. daniel Ge0rG: we can un-annouce the old devices. So messages won't just get discarded
  269. daniel It'll look like that contact doesn't have support for omemo
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  271. Ge0rG daniel, un-announce on upgrade? That might work. You could also add discovery for the new namespace already, and show a message to upgrade the client if it is encountered on a contract.
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  273. daniel Ge0rG: see. No problem
  274. Ge0rG daniel, see, you need to do advance planning!
  275. Ge0rG daniel, and you need to convince all the others to do the same planning.
  276. Ge0rG daniel, you can't just sed out the namespace on day X.
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  279. daniel Ge0rG: convincing the others is not a problem. We are all besties
  280. Ge0rG daniel, it's getting harder and harder with each non standard implementation.
  281. daniel Ge0rG: I'm not doubting that it gets relatively harder
  282. Ge0rG I'm just saying...
  283. daniel Ge0rG: in any case there are a couple of things that have to happen first. Assess if a switch is still necessary with ows releasing specs
  284. daniel Write a olm java library
  285. daniel Fix bugs in olm
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  289. Ge0rG Maybe the OWS spec is something that should be discussed in Brussels.
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  291. daniel I'm happy to discuss it if people have enough background information to make that assessment.
  292. daniel Note that this far I dont have that level of background information either
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  296. Ge0rG daniel, I think it would be awesome if you could prepare it then and add a discussion point to the agenda. Unfortunately I'm not going to attend.
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  304. ralphm Kev: so did the e-mail just come in delayed?
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  306. Kev I had it on my other account. I thought both accounts were subbed, but presumably either I'm wrong, or it got spamtrapped at work.
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  350. Link Mauve “17:30:58 SamWhited> I wouldn't mind writing an XMPP implementation ontop of [tokio].”, oh nice, I’ll have a look, I remember wanting to try it before but it was very immature a few months ago (especially due to futures) so I went for mio instead.
  351. Link Mauve “17:36:10 Zash> lua::lua_setfield(L, -2, CString::new("foo").unwrap());”, you are just using raw bindings that don’t have a higher-level wraper, it won’t provide you any better safety than writing plain C either, it’s not the level at which you want to be using Rust.
  352. Zash Link Mauve: I imagined that it'd be possible to do Safe™ things in Rust and have a relatively small area of unsafe code that moves stuff between that and the C / Lua world.
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  354. Zash Which should be true, but then I reached my tolerance of telling a computer how to turn a string into a string.
  355. SamWhited > Welcome to our room, I'm going to add you to my roster, if you accept, please reply with Yes or 1 to accept, or you can reply with No or 0 if you don't want to. مـرحـبآ بك في رومنا , سأقوم بإضافتك, لو سمحت أجب بنعم او 1 ان كنت موافقآ, او لا او 0 ان كنت لا تريد اضافتي.
  356. SamWhited Whisper in jdev or somewhere
  357. Link Mauve Zash, :)
  358. SamWhited That's a new one
  359. Link Mauve SamWhited, from who?
  360. SamWhited discuss@, rather; if anyone here has a ban hammer…
  361. Zash A kind of thing highlighting the continued need for JID privacy in public rooms?
  362. SamWhited That wouldn't stop a pm would it?
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  364. Tobias SamWhited, a fix for the duplicated note numbers https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/374
  365. SamWhited "Avril Lavinge" if anyone has op rights there
  366. SamWhited Tobias: nice, thanks!
  367. Zash SamWhited: Makes it harder for whatever that was to actually add you to their roster and/or send direct spam.
  368. SamWhited Fair
  369. intosi It would be nice if clients would render PM's outside of the chat room context, IMO ;) Avoids a bit of confusion.
  370. SamWhited Agreed
  371. intosi I'm generally always confused by how Conversations handles this.
  372. Zash Still need to write that server module to limit PMs in the MUC itself.
  373. SamWhited It would also prevent a lot of "me sending private messages to the whole room by mistake"
  374. intosi SamWhited, and that :)
  375. Link Mauve I only know of two clients doing that, imo you should report to their bugtracker.
  376. Link Mauve It’s indeed a terrible UX.
  377. mathieui that’s conversations and mcabber?
  378. Link Mauve Yeah.
  379. moparisthebest I talked to daniel about that before and it was a deliberate design decision
  380. Zash Yay trade offs
  381. moparisthebest if I recall correctly, because it'd be confusing that people they were chatting with just disappeared and quit working etc
  382. moparisthebest which is fair I guess
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  384. moparisthebest I also hate it, coding it up as an advanced option has been on my todo list for too long
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  386. daniel The target audience (tm) is also discouraged to use PMs at all
  387. daniel They usually dont hang around anonymous conferences
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  389. SamWhited Oh huh, the person sending that spam *is* an admin. Compromised account, maybe.
  390. mathieui maybe they just want to make friends :-(
  391. moparisthebest yea I have a feeling hardcore xmpp or irc users are the only one bothered by that behavior daniel :)
  392. Zash The nickname does seem familiar somehow
  393. moparisthebest yea I have a feeling hardcore xmpp or irc users are the only ones bothered by that behavior daniel :)
  394. intosi daniel: perhaps in your client, but that doesn't stop other clients from doing do.
  395. daniel intosi: yeah sure. I was just talking about the reasoning Conversations doesn't do it this way
  396. intosi Discouraging its use is fine (I know I rather receive normal chats instead), but rendering it such that it's easy to broadcast things meant to be said in private might not be the best choice for random users ;) They might also assume the thing was said in publiuc in the first place.
  397. intosi The incoming message, that is.
  398. intosi If a techie is confused about the whispers, imagine how non-techies would perceive it ;)
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  400. daniel Mix to the rescue
  401. ralphm daniel: how would you handle it differently for MIX?
  402. daniel ralphm: the private conversation doesn't randomly drop out and can be persistent over longer periods
  403. ralphm sure
  404. ralphm so would press-hold on a participant then bring you to another conversation?
  405. daniel ralphm: it can be a different conversation. How exactly you'd open one I haven't thought about yet
  406. daniel But in essence yes
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  423. ralphm Zash, Flow, and other participants of the XMPP Summit and/or FOSDEM, please join summit@muc.xmpp.org
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  443. Ge0rG A coworker just clicked my nickname in gajim's MUC window to chat to me. He was utterly confused when I tried to explain to him that this is not the same as a direct message. Oh the woes of XMPP
  444. Ge0rG Normal people would be best served by MUC light.
  445. intosi Why did you try to explain that? He probably did so because he had a question, and an answer would've made him close the window again ;)
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  448. Ge0rG Also, I've recently fixed yaxim to put MUC PMs into separate windows, even though they lack presence info yet. It vastly improved the UX
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  451. Arc im a bit confused by something; why is MIX split into two services with the special proxy service?
  452. Kev Because some things can only happen on your own server.
  453. Steve Kille Arc: Will talk about this at the summit. Need to make this clearer. MIX has requirements on the User's server, and these requirements are currently reference as MIX Proxy
  454. Kev The 'special proxy service' is bad terminology for 'things your server does'.
  455. Ge0rG Arc, it requires support from your server, and the MIX proxy is the part of your server that implements this support
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  457. Ge0rG I'm still in favor of "MIX agent"
  458. dwd MIX Master?
  459. Ge0rG dwd, nice sound but technically misleading
  460. dwd Well, it has to be MIX something or else Steve Kille won't write the spec. See RFC 2156.
  461. intosi MIX Connector, or MC for short.
  462. Zash MIX Blender
  463. Tobias or MIX Bender (futurama style)
  464. Ge0rG dwd, that problem can be solved. I remember you offered to kill people who come to Brussels... :P
  465. Ge0rG Tobias, +1
  466. intosi Bite my shiny mixing affiliation.
  467. Ge0rG Why not just as short as possible? "mixer" or "MIXer"
  468. Zash MIXing Server
  469. Zash MIX Inclusion eXtension
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  473. Arc hmm
  474. Arc ok
  475. Arc it doesnt sit quite right, does it? requiring special server support for a remote service?
  476. Zash I believe it started as "what if the server kept track of your pubsub subscriptions?" combined with "what if muc was pubsub based?"
  477. Zash Currently, pubsub state is between a client (resource) and the pubsub service. Moving the tracking into the account (on the server) enables magic.
  478. Tobias maybe the MIX XEP should make that explicit, so that we don't have someone stubling about that fact every month
  479. Zash Having not kept up with MIX, I'm not sure how much magic is expected of the server now.
  480. Tobias *explicit in the introduction
  481. Arc meeting time
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  483. Arc and starting today, I'm FREE!
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  485. Arc Google Code-in is officially over. all student work submitted, all reviews complete, only thing left is choosing grand prize winners and the awards ceremony sometime this spring
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  487. Arc ralphm: nyco:
  488. mathieui Arc, congratulations
  489. MattJ waves
  490. nyco hey
  491. ralphm I'm here
  492. Arc https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Joshua_Pan_Application_2017 is a great result from google code-in
  493. ralphm start in 40 s
  494. nyco hey Arc, can/should we write a blog post about XMPP-related work on Google Code-In?
  495. Arc Zash: if you want to follow up with one of the students, that's the big one
  496. ralphm intosi: but will it MIX?
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  498. Arc nyco: we could? im not huge into press release style posts tho
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  500. ralphm bangs gavel
  501. ralphm 1. Welcome + Agenda
  502. nyco Arc, rather tech content?
  503. Arc Martin: you here?
  504. ralphm Who do we have today?
  505. nyco Welcome ;-)
  506. Arc Here
  507. ralphm MattJ?
  508. MattJ Here
  509. ralphm (despite your presence)
  510. ralphm Good. Any agenda items, besides Summit/FOSDEM?
  511. nyco Agenda: all for the summit?
  512. Arc I added 2 to the board
  513. nyco IMHO we should focus on Brussels
  514. nyco ah ok
  515. ralphm 2. Minute taker
  516. ralphm dwd around?
  517. dwd I'm not going to be around the entire time, but I'll get to minutes.
  518. ralphm ok
  519. ralphm 3. Summit / FOSDEM
  520. Martin has left
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  522. Arc Thank you ralph for getting the hotel stuff together
  523. ralphm As you might have seen, I've got the quote from Thon Hotel, and sent out some details on the Summit ML
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  525. nyco thx
  526. Martin (apologies, I'm here, but on a train, so my connection is ropey)
  527. ralphm I still need to sign the document, and dwd suggested we could simply put in the bank details to cover their requirement for non-paying individuals
  528. ralphm If that's ok with y'all
  529. Arc thats ok so long as everyone in the block is known and reliable
  530. ralphm aye, that's also why I put up the Google Docs form
  531. xyz has joined
  532. Arc and there's a clear understanding that the XSF will hold people responsible for paying anything charged to the XSF on their behalf
  533. Arc which I think you've covered.
  534. dwd Hence the phrasing on the Google Docs form, indeed.
  535. ralphm It has a checkbox stating 'I understand that I will be personally responsible for the payment to Thon Hotel EU and will be required to make good any expense incurred by the XMPP Standards Foundation in relation to my stay.̈́
  536. Arc quick question - why is wednesday twice the price for weekend nights?
  537. dwd arc, Because Hotels.
  538. ralphm I'm assuming that's also because of EU
  539. Valerian has left
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  541. ralphm It's always been like this at Aloft, too
  542. intosi They had few rooms available on that date.
  543. Arc thats bizarre, but moving on.
  544. ralphm yeah
  545. Tobias payments to the hotel okay, but why to the XSF?
  546. Arc unfortunetly there's not a lot of other options; the eariest eurostar from london (for example) arrives after 10am, over 30 minutes from summit
  547. ralphm So, other than that, I got word that Chris Deering won't be at the Summit, and neither will M&M, but Chris is in talks with Jerome Poisson on the summit venue
  548. ralphm tobias: you don't pay the XSF for the hotel, this is just to make sure that if you don't pay the hotel, we will need to cover it and come haunt you
  549. Tobias ralphm, ahh
  550. Arc has left
  551. ralphm To be clear, the venue being Cisco Diegem
  552. ralphm I trust we can work that out again
  553. Arc has joined
  554. SamWhited In case Cisco doesn't work out, maybe it's worth inquiring if the hotel has a conference room we can use?
  555. intosi We'll squat all of the Poechenellekelder if not .
  556. Arc is that not locked down yet?
  557. ralphm it does, dwd said it was expensive
  558. ralphm Arc: please don't worry so much
  559. SamWhited Ah weird, I'd assume it would be free to people bringing in a big group paying them tons of money
  560. dwd The XSF can, if needs be, afford the hotel's conference room.
  561. intosi SamWhited: that's not how bistromath works.
  562. dwd SamWhited, That's a US thing. EU hotels don't operate in that way.
  563. SamWhited Huh, interesting.
  564. ralphm dwd: yeah
  565. SamWhited I thought that was the point of conference rooms in hotels, to attract big groups :)
  566. ralphm SamWhited: well, in the case of hotels in the EU district in Brussels, there appear to be plenty of venues offered by the EU
  567. ralphm Moving on
  568. Arc SamWhited: and in the US, wednesdays are usually the cheapest day.
  569. ralphm Other thing on the list is the XSF dinner. We just need to contact the same old restaurant and setup a new Google Form afterwards
  570. Arc what restaurant is it?
  571. ralphm dwd: let's get that check list done today
  572. ralphm http://www.aubergebretonne.be/
  573. ralphm We've been going there for years. Good venue.
  574. dwd ralphm, Yes. Mea culpa and all that.
  575. ralphm That brings me to the next point, sponsors
  576. Lance has joined
  577. ralphm we need to chase those. Who wants to take that on
  578. ralphm ?
  579. ralphm if needed dwd can help with tips
  580. Arc i have a bad feeling that im going to lose so much weight on this trip lol
  581. dwd arc, You'll lose many negative pounds.
  582. ralphm dwd :-)
  583. Arc dwd: you might. lol
  584. ralphm not seeing any volunteers
  585. ralphm :-(
  586. ralphm come on guys, I can't do it all
  587. MattJ I'll volunteer, if someone gives me pointers
  588. dwd ralphm, This is for Dinner etc?
  589. ralphm yeah
  590. Martin has left
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  592. MattJ Not convinced I'm the best person for the job, but hey :)
  593. ralphm last year we had Dinner and Lunch sponsors, as well as Cisco for the Summit venue
  594. dwd I'll give MattJ some tips.
  595. Zash MattJ: You can arrange for all vegan and cheese free dinner for everyone
  596. ralphm MattJ: you'll be fine, just don't get lost in the woods
  597. MattJ I won't be there :)
  598. dwd ralphm, That's how lost he'll be.
  599. Arc Zash: I don't think its possible, looking at this one restaurant's menu. even the fish has dairy on it
  600. dwd Arc, Vegan isn't really a thing in Belgium. Vegetarian isn't much of a thing either.
  601. ralphm Arc: I'm sure they can do specials, we've always had a veggie option, too
  602. Arc dwd: yes I'm getting that impression.
  603. intosi ralphm: vegan is probably more complex for them.
  604. Arc I'm vegan plus fish and eggs. strong dairy allergy.
  605. ralphm intosi: hm. I'll ask them anyway
  606. ralphm (or whoever calls them)
  607. dwd Arc, Ah... Yes, you may have some problems.
  608. xyz has left
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  610. dwd Arc, You can always live off beer. It's practically a meal in itself there.
  611. Arc things like butter can lead to a hospital visit, you can understand hesitation eating in non-english countries
  612. daniel has left
  613. intosi I'm sure native speakers can help out at the Auberge here.
  614. Arc I ate exactly two meals in paris over 4 days.
  615. MattJ Arc, it's fine, once the infamous "ribs place" made up a vegetarian dish for me
  616. Steve Kille has left
  617. MattJ Consisting 100% of tomatoes
  618. intosi MattJ: the plate full of tomatoes?
  619. ralphm Yeah, I'm sure people in Paris think you're from another planet
  620. MattJ That's the one
  621. Arc MattJ: tomatos are great for electrolites lol
  622. Steve Kille has left
  623. MattJ I think there was some parsley on the top
  624. Arc anyway we can discuss that on summit@
  625. waqas What has the typical cost of the dinner been? i.e., what's the baseline funding goal?
  626. dwd I'd have to check previous years' figures.
  627. ralphm meanwhile, let's spend the last 5 minutes on Marketing
  628. ralphm I relatedly asked if my company could provide a projector, and I think that's shouldn't be a problem
  629. Martin I asked if Surevine could, and nobody seemed to know where the projector was, so that's good to hear
  630. ralphm We do need to get things printed soonish
  631. ralphm Martin: the more the better
  632. MattJ Martin, :)
  633. Arc ralphm: yes, do you have quotes on that?
  634. Martin ralphm: OK, I'll chase
  635. Arc ralphm: full color front and back A4
  636. xyz has left
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  639. ralphm Arc: I'll get you a quote on that.
  640. Steve Kille has joined
  641. ralphm anything else specifically?
  642. Arc well you mentioned a banner
  643. Arc I'm focusing my attention on flyers, which i should have a pdf by friday
  644. ralphm Arc: right. Roll op banners are around €35
  645. ralphm (going from, of course you can get more expensive)
  646. ralphm I've also eyed this: https://www.dvc.nl/beurs-presentatie/beurs-en-wanden
  647. Arc ralphm: want me to do layout for the banner too?
  648. ralphm The soft image wand (wall), for example
  649. ralphm and https://www.dvc.nl/beurs-presentatie/balies
  650. ralphm Arc: yes please
  651. Arc ok get me DPI and size. my schedule is pretty open this week
  652. ralphm nods
  653. ralphm time's up
  654. Arc I added tshirts for decision
  655. ralphm anything else?
  656. ralphm Arc: I'm +1 on them, we just need to get a nice design
  657. Arc no problem. full color on one side, one color on the other?
  658. Arc are we doing free shirts for summit participants (they'll cost under $20/ea I expect) or taking online orders to pay for them?
  659. Kev has left
  660. ralphm Martin, nyco?
  661. nyco not sure
  662. ralphm Arc: I don't know
  663. Martin has left
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  665. ralphm I would pay for it
  666. Arc it'd cost under $400 to print them. the issue here is the price goes up in smaller quantity
  667. Arc assuming similar pricing US to EU, good tshirt material around $8, and around $15 setup per screen, plus a nominal amount per shirt to print. but the screens are the key there
  668. ralphm does different sizes affect that?
  669. Arc not typically, until you get to XXL or higher
  670. Arc with full color on one side (for xmpp logo) it'll cost $75-$100 USD for setup and printing regardless of quantity
  671. ralphm I have no idea on this
  672. SamWhited has left
  673. ralphm I'm going to close this meeting, but we can chat some more afterwards
  674. Ge0rG Would it be possible to get summit-neutral t shirts for non-participants?
  675. ralphm Arc: thanks for the PyCon thing
  676. nyco ok, I need to go, sorry... I've not been useful :'(
  677. ralphm Ge0rG: the idea this time around is participant-only shirts, if I remember correctly.
  678. Arc so being conservative it'll cost under $400 for qty 36.
  679. ralphm 4. Date of Next
  680. ralphm +1W
  681. ralphm 5. Close
  682. ralphm Thanks all
  683. nyco thx
  684. ralphm bangs gavel
  685. MattJ Thanks ralphm
  686. Martin has left
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  688. ralphm By the way, I think we'll skip Feb 1.
  689. jubalh has left
  690. Arc what, no in-person board meeting?
  691. ralphm Not on Feb 1
  692. ralphm I'll still be in Veldhoven
  693. ralphm But I'm all up for the in-person board drink
  694. ralphm (on one of the other nights)
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  699. Arc ralphm: i'm suggesting we use up to $400 of the $1500 for promo material budget for tshirts
  700. ralphm right
  701. Arc so, you ended the meeting a bit abruptly there. are we making those decisions on the list?
  702. moparisthebest has left
  703. ralphm Arc: well, yeah, because it's been mostly a conversation between us two. I think that's a reasonable course of action
  704. ralphm I am curious about how to find proper shirt material
  705. Arc the printer will have options.
  706. ralphm Most of my shirts are American Apparel, but I'm not sure if you can get those here
  707. jubalh has joined
  708. moparisthebest 'MIX Proxy' should be renamed 'MIX User Connector', or MUC for short, that'll fix all the confusion surely
  709. Arc a third of my closet are tshirts ive designed or run the orders on, mostly rugby shirts
  710. Sonny has left
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  712. ralphm I know good vendors for flags and for paper printing, but not so much for clothes
  713. ralphm Guus, intosi, any idea?
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  715. Arc would amsterdam be easy for you to pick up from ralphm?
  716. Arc I can ask the rugby team in amsterdam, all rugby teams make shirts like crazy
  717. Arc btw ralphm you've got an invite to Bingham Cup 2018 in Amsterdam ;-)
  718. ralphm I'm in A'dam three days a week
  719. ralphm But I'd guess that all printers would do cheap shipping
  720. ralphm .nl is small
  721. ralphm Hah.
  722. Sonny has left
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  726. Arc i asked the amsterdam lowlanders
  727. goffi has joined
  728. Ge0rG "I'm in A'dam three days a week" this is a surprising coming out.
  729. Arc Ge0rG: especially when replying to an invite to a gay rugby tournament lol
  730. lonerz has joined
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  732. ralphm Yeah, I found it hard to admit, too.
  733. arc has left
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  735. Arc largest rugby tournament in the world, pretty big deal.
  736. waqas has left
  737. Arc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulSPA_Enh2A was Sydney 3 years ago.
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  751. Guus Some one mentioned me?
  752. Guus Clothing vendors, no idea
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  769. Ge0rG Has anybody ever considered that JIDs reflected by a MUC or MIX are not trustworthy, as the component could fake everything?
  770. Arc thats an interesting point
  771. xnyhps has joined
  772. Arc currently tho you can confirm their server at least if they use http upload to send a photo
  773. Ge0rG http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#invite-mediated writes "The <room@service> itself MUST then add a 'from' address to the <invite/> element whose value is the bare JID, full JID, or occupant JID of the inviter" which all have interesting security implications
  774. Arc ive retreated to my safe EXI level work, theres just too many privacy exploits to close them all
  775. xyz has left
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  777. Arc besides, many of those problems *we* can't solve.
  778. Arc i think i found the bottom of the rabbit hole, and it puts everything else in perspective
  779. Arc all I need to do to uncover your IP address is send you a custom link to a server I manage.
  780. Ge0rG Arc: and make me click it
  781. Arc thats easy. i just have to provoke you with an emotional discussion and make it look like a url shortener service
  782. Arc I started running this as a proof of concept on alt-right forums, im getting over 50% click-through rate
  783. Arc it works most reliably with DMs
  784. Arc usually after forum visibility posts
  785. xyz has left
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  787. Ge0rG Arc: I hope you aren't doing unethical things with the IP data
  788. Arc not unless profiting from humans being terrible to each other is unethical
  789. Ge0rG Arc: in not sure. "profiting" can be anything or nothing
  790. Ge0rG I'm
  791. Arc i got the idea when I first noticed this problem a few weeks ago at the same time a transwoman friend was being harassed online to the point of closing her facebook account. using this method we were able to uncover that they were using RCN from the DC area, meaning its likely someone she knows
  792. Arc but we lacked data.
  793. Arc so I identified other places online where this person might be posting, and started running automated agents there to see if we could find a match. we haven't yet.
  794. Arc if we could ever link the person to a real identity, they would face criminal charges for repeatedly threatening to kill her
  795. Arc the latest is after she left facebook, her harrasser created a spoof profile with her name and started sending friend requests to people she knows. its been pretty scary
  796. Ge0rG Arc: interesting op-sec finding
  797. Guus (RCN?)
  798. Arc RCN is a cable company. unfortunetly RCN doesnt have ipv6
  799. daniel Does somebody have a deep link to the summits mailing list sign-up page / archive. (basically to the mailman page). I'm on mobile with horrible Internet and googleing that is a pain
  800. Guus https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/summit
  801. Arc anyway im considering turning it into a business. the data archived exclusively from "biggot sites" that trolls tend to use frequently. advertisers are already using your IP address to track you
  802. Ge0rG Arc: such a business would be illegal wir where I live
  803. Guus when is the next board meeting?
  804. Arc Ge0rG: thats entirely possible.
  805. Arc Ge0rG: Jan 25.
  806. Arc we are skipping Feb 1
  807. Guus ah, today was one?
  808. Arc yes, and we really only got through one item. its unlikely we'll be able to touch non-summit next week either
  809. Arc the big one we need to attack now is GSoC. if XSF is going to put in a decent application this year we need someone to step up, I'm happy to serve as backup admin (I've been a GSoC mentor every year since 2005), and need to start getting the ideas page going like yesterday
  810. Guus Board should probably have a say in the desirability of something like, which is why I was asking: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/246
  811. ralphm has joined
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  813. Guus ah, GSoC, good thought. Not sure if I can commit to put in effort there though. I can try to coordinate with IgniteRealtime projects, if that'd be helpful
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  817. Arc Ge0rG: just curious, what part specifically would be illegal where you are? the recording of IP addresses? sending bots to engage in social sites? allowing paid subscribers to use our data to narrow down who their harassers are?
  818. Arc Guus: well GCI just ended, which means GSoC is starting.
  819. Arc please note, and this is very important, if XSF isnt accepted there are other projects that will umbrella
  820. Arc we can, Python may, even Apache
  821. bjc has left
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  823. Flow GSOC, yes please :)
  824. Arc the difference is who gets the money. umbrellas usually keep most or all of the per-student funds
  825. Flow so does the XSF ;)
  826. daniel Guus: thank you
  827. dwd Arc, I don't think we do it for the monety.
  828. Arc dwd: no, but it helps
  829. Flow helps how?
  830. Flow I'm not sure if I want mentors who wouldn't mentor if there was no money
  831. Arc we had Wesnoth under us as an umbrella a few years ago, they threw a nuclear hissy fit over the org payment from google even when they were a very small part of the overall org
  832. Ge0rG Arc: recording of addresses is borderline, selling them without user consent illegal
  833. Arc Ge0rG: would love to see that law, because advertisers do this all the time.
  834. dwd Ge0rG, Germany's a little over-inclusive about what they treat as PII, mind.
  835. Guus Arc: Germa...what Dave said.
  836. Valerian has left
  837. Arc ah, gotcha.
  838. Arc well if i do this i plan to incorporate as an LLC in nevada anyway
  839. Ge0rG dwd: it's good to err on the safe side
  840. dwd Arc, You could probably have a query service over whether a particular user visiting a site may frequent alt-right groups. Having a flat out IP blacklist might be problematic.
  841. xyz has joined
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  843. Arc dwd: not a blacklist. we're not blocking anyone, just attempting to link up what they've said on different sites to identify who they are
  844. Arc once we get into facebook it might become very easy.
  845. dwd Arc, If you do it via advertising - or via a mechanism that's substantially similar - you're perfectly fine.
  846. dwd Arc, Depending on what "identify" might mean here.
  847. Arc the IP address is easy. the question is who's posting hate from that IP address.
  848. dwd On another note - pubsub events and retracts - type='headline' a sensible default?
  849. Arc so the MIX "proxy" isnt MIX-specific, its your own server tracking pubsub subscriptions
  850. Kev It *is* MIX specific, because MIX does a special type of pubsub.
  851. Ge0rG And because the proxy also filters / redirects messages and possibly presence
  852. Arc could it be mare more generic, tracking pubsub subscriptions would be a nice feature
  853. Kev Yes, that's PAM.
  854. dwd Arc, See PAM.
  855. Kev But PAM wasn't specced out sufficiently when MIX was being done to use PAM.
  856. dwd Arc, And that does need work, but I think I've got a reasonable spec for the actual tracking bit.
  857. Kev So what's needed is specced out in MIX more explicitly, with the understanding it may well be rephrased in terms of PAM when PAM is more fully baked.
  858. Arc ok
  859. Ge0rG Kev: why haven't we progressed PAM then?
  860. Arc clearly i have a lot of reading to do
  861. Arc easier to retreat back to EXI and let the rest wash over for now
  862. Kev Arc: Sure. We're basically building XMPP2 at this point.
  863. dwd Ge0rG, Cycles. I'm always blocked when thinking how PEP ought to work with PAM.
  864. Arc that is long since overdue
  865. Kev We're just doing it in a way that still works on top of 6120/6121 and allows interop with XMPP1.
  866. Arc TLS mandatory, EXI detection mandatory, SASL mandatory, fully framed and no restarts
  867. waqas has left
  868. Kev Which is obviously a good thing, but makes it hard to break the mindset of 'well, why should entity X have to support Y in order for entity Z to ...', when the answer is 'because this is how the new world needs to work'.
  869. Ge0rG XMPP2 you say? Is that why bind2 is called as it is? I found the name rather uncreative
  870. daniel Let's duplicate all xeps and add a 2.0 to the name
  871. Kev daniel: Resource binding 1 not being a XEP, of course ;)
  872. Ge0rG daniel: just bump the steam namespace version
  873. Ge0rG And replace XML with http2
  874. Kev And I'm out again.
  875. Arc and then replace http2 with telnet
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  879. Flow hmm, yesterday gave a +1 for removing the ability of the client to suggest a resource, and today I look at stanza traces of integration tests I wrote which use that feature to make it clear which role the involved full JIDs perform in the test.
  880. Holger has left
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  882. Holger Yes, custum resource names can be really convenient during debugging.
  883. Flow exactly, so I'm not sure if we should get rid of them on protocol level again
  884. Flow (and that, of course, includes bind2)
  885. Tobias it's just one indirection more
  886. Flow tobias: hmm?
  887. Flow instead of looking at the localpart?
  888. Tobias in your logs, just find the resource you interested in and then look at all debugs things related to it
  889. Tobias you just skip the "find the resource you're interested in"
  890. Flow tobias: in case of integration tests, i'm interested in multiple resources
  891. Flow of course, I could highlight them in different colors
  892. daniel Debugging is a good usecase. Maybe the only one. Not sure if this justifies keeping them
  893. Tobias sure..but you can just have them handle them being dynamic, not?
  894. Flow and then try to remember somehow that blue is the address doing to the read out from the red resource
  895. Tobias if you have asserts that are resource dependent, just do a lookup for the resource after you log in, and use the resource in the asserts of your integration tests
  896. Flow tobias: ahh i'm not sure if we talk about the same thing
  897. Tobias i'm neither
  898. Flow Right now I've a stanza trace in front of me, which involves three different entities
  899. Tobias what's the integration test you have that requires static hardcoded resources?
  900. Flow which somehow interact with each other
  901. Flow tobias: it does not *require* it
  902. Flow it makes the trace much easier to read
  903. Tobias so, highlight them differently based on resoruce
  904. Tobias *resource
  905. Flow i may not always have emacs in front of me
  906. Flow i.e. I could have an editor in front of me which doesn't have this feature
  907. Flow like google docs
  908. Flow which is actually the case right now
  909. Tobias google docs can colour text
  910. SamWhited has left
  911. Flow ahh ok, didn't knew
  912. Flow let's see
  913. Flow but the point still stands
  914. Flow tobias: can color text, or can color search results in different colors?
  915. Tobias i don't know...i rarely use google docs
  916. bjc it's useful for debugging, but it's hard to use that as a strong motivation to keep the feature, imho
  917. bjc i do the same thing with my resources in tests
  918. Tobias and you can still use static resources, just not when doing login using bind2
  919. Flow If the only motiviation for removing it is that it makes clustering easier, then I tend to say "keep it", because it's already possible to generate the resources on the local cluster node with the current RFC
  920. Ge0rG +1 for keeping client generated resources.
  921. bjc it removes a round trip when you don't have to negotiate resources
  922. Flow tobias: right, but what if bind2 becomes XMPP 2.0?
  923. Ge0rG My motivation is debugging as well, and really, we shouldn't make server operator lives even more complicated
  924. bjc honestly, not sure if i care about that, either, but there you go
  925. Flow bjc: no it does not
  926. Arc it could be streamlined
  927. bjc no? i haven't read bind2 yet
  928. Tobias it's the XEP with no external references :p
  929. Ge0rG There is no extra round-trip. The client politely asks, the server either approves or reassigns
  930. bjc it's a round trip if you have to ask, as opposed to just being assigned one
  931. Ge0rG Besides, we need some way to tell the server to kill the stale session anyway on a reconnect
  932. Flow I sometimes wish the bind element would be more explicit about the "politely asks" aspect
  933. Flow Ge0rG, why do we need that?
  934. Flow The only party which has an advantage by removing the old stale session is the server, no?
  935. Ge0rG Flow: because I just killed and restarted my client, and I want to replace the previous session
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  937. Flow because? I mean with carbons and such?
  938. bjc what flow said
  939. Flow hmm, probably stale presence, not sure
  940. daniel Ge0rG: the kill stale sessions can be done differently
  941. daniel It doesn't require custom resources
  942. Flow true
  943. bjc may be an issue with directed presence
  944. Ge0rG daniel: eg with 0198,which has its own session identifier
  945. Flow isn't directed presence send to bare JIDs?
  946. bjc full or bare
  947. bjc but for, eg, muc, it's full
  948. Flow ahh ok
  949. Ge0rG Flow: because of OMEMO for example, which talks to a given resource
  950. bjc not sure if it matters, at the end of the day, though
  951. Flow doesn't OMEMO talk to devices?
  952. Ge0rG (in mixed support situations)
  953. daniel What?
  954. daniel Omemo doesn't need resources
  955. Tobias Ge0rG, carbons?
  956. Flow But I don't see a problem extending <bind2/> with an optional <kill-previous-session resource='foo'/> element
  957. daniel Flow: yeah that's what I suggested yesterday
  958. daniel Or if bind 2 requires sm when can use sm for that
  959. Flow brrr "requires"
  960. Ge0rG Flow: that and <attempt-stream-resume id=bar>
  961. Flow I'd avoid hard dependencies when possible
  962. Flow hmm stream-resume doesn't make sense for bind2
  963. Flow stream-enable may does
  964. bjc why would you use sm over bosh instead of just using acks?
  965. Ge0rG Flow: if we want to clean up the mess, we need to make bold steps
  966. Kev has left
  967. daniel Flow: I don't have an opinion on that. But I said *if* it requires sm. Either that or do the kill-prevois element
  968. Flow right, but still, stream-resume doesn't make sense when using bind2
  969. Ge0rG Flow: stream-resume does make sense because it spares a round-trip and moves more logic into the server
  970. Flow if you do SASL auth followed by xep198 stream resume, then you don't need bind2
  971. daniel Flow: but in case it fails
  972. daniel It spares you a round trip
  973. Flow then you do bind2 with stream-enable
  974. daniel Flow: yes. And that's the extra round trip
  975. daniel That you have to do the bind
  976. Ge0rG Flow: or you just do bind2 with attempt-resume and the server does all the magic
  977. Flow ahh, got ya, fair point
  978. daniel (I'm not necessarily agreeing just explaining that it does save a round trip)
  979. Ge0rG Ideally, as a client, I'd put (my last MAM id, resource, sm session) into the bind2 request and let the server do everything else
  980. Flow BTW: I did some related art yesterday. Ladies and Gentleman, I present you, the XMPP client session establishment state machine: https://goo.gl/photos/xg2yECoACUscsj6Z6
  981. Flow Ge0rg, the last MAM ID, so the server also sends you the missing messages?
  982. Ge0rG Flow: exactly
  983. Flow hmm, not sure if that's really required
  984. Flow I mean bind2 is there to solve a race condition
  985. Flow and not to make everything super optimized
  986. Flow at least that's how I see it
  987. SamWhited Flow: nice; I've got a few chunks of that drawn up in some details, and I've been meaning to complete the picture and try to get the full diagram drawn out. Good job
  988. daniel Sending the mam id would be a very bold move
  989. Flow SamWhited: I'm tikz'ing it and plan to put the tex into a public git
  990. Ge0rG Expected result: either stream resume, or: - kill old session - update old sm state according to delivered counter - send all I missed from MAM - bind new session - enable carbons
  991. daniel Not sure if bind 2 wants to take that on
  992. SamWhited Flow: I'e got a few graphs here, feel free to borrow from them: https://bitbucket.org/SamWhited/xmppdocs/overview
  993. Ge0rG daniel: why not make bind2 explicitly support extension elements for MAM, sm etc
  994. daniel Ge0rG: I didn't say bold aren't good moves. I'm just not sure if this is something that Kev would be willing to do
  995. Flow SamWhited: will certainly have a look. thanks!
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  997. Ge0rG daniel: im not sure if Kev is the ultimate authority or if we want to make something that's good and future proof
  998. Ge0rG (not implying that we can't with Kev)
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  1000. daniel Ge0rG: sure. But you can't hijack kevs xep is what I'm saying.
  1001. daniel 'hijack' and 'kevs'
  1002. Ge0rG daniel: this is a shortcoming of the XEP process.
  1003. Ge0rG If I had more time, I'd hijack a bunch of them.
  1004. daniel Maybe it is...
  1005. Ge0rG We can make bind2 something awesome and remove some cruft from the graph Flow shared.
  1006. Ge0rG And not just a hot fix for a race condition.
  1007. Ge0rG I wouldn't mind it becoming XMPP2. There are many problems in XMPP 1
  1008. SamWhited I've been thinking about that a lot lately actually; redoing the login flow and calling it XMPP 1.1 or 2 or whatever; maybe fixing some of the erratas, or merging in XEPs that are now seen as necessary, etc.
  1009. SamWhited Almost certainly not worth the effort though.
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  1011. Ge0rG SamWhited: why not?
  1012. SamWhited Because everything would break, and most of the problems probably aren't bad enough that anyone would bother implementing it. Just a hunch though.
  1013. Ge0rG Besides of the MAM carbon SM mess we could also get 2fa and one-time / per device passwords
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  1015. SamWhited And the IETF-WG process is a big deal, and would take a massive amount of effort.
  1016. SamWhited We can get that now without rewriting the whole RFC.
  1017. Kev What I want to do with the bind2 spec is not to do anything complicated without a clear consensus.
  1018. Kev Dave has possibly reasonable things he wants to do, including redoing all of SASL I think.
  1019. Kev If that happens, it'd probably bin any work done on complicated things in bind2, which is why I'm not keen on boiling the ocean at this stage.
  1020. Ge0rG Kev: I want to redo the things after SASL, and I have controversial ideas about it. Will post to the ML after my holiday (next week)
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  1022. Ge0rG Kev: how does one thing bin the other?
  1023. Kev My approach is "Do the simple things right now in bind2 so we can solve the real problems that need solving, then let someone write an elegant and future-proof reworking of the entire stream setup, and then rephrase bind2 in terms of that".
  1024. SamWhited SASL itself is a pain to implement in a generic way; I haven't seen anything better, but I'm not sure the problems with it are just XMPP problems…
  1025. Kev SamWhited: And then you start ratholing.
  1026. Kev SamWhited: And then bind2 gets held up. And then we don't solve the immediate problems.
  1027. SamWhited Exactly
  1028. Kev Thus my approach of doing the simple thing first, and adapting once the complicated thing is done (if ever)
  1029. Kev Maybe my simple thing is *too* simple, even for that plan, but that is my motivation.
  1030. SamWhited Kevs approach ++; there are places where I think it's necessary to do a radical redesign, but in this case I suspect it's simpler and cleaner to do it incrementally. Especially since even the "simple" approach is a pretty big step.
  1031. Ge0rG Just make bind2 extensible with additional elements for SM and MAM
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