XSF Discussion - 2017-02-28

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  52. daniel I wonder if it's too much to ask from gsoc students to join the muc
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  65. MattJ I don't think it's too much to ask
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  76. Zash Newspeak?
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  78. jonasw or Zeitungsenten ("newspaper ducks") in german
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  84. Ge0rG which is probably translated as "hoax"
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  86. Tobias nah... 📰🦆 sounds way better
  87. jonasw that’s even outside unicode 8.x. you’re unfair. ;P
  88. Tobias jonasw, it just shows the effort :)
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  91. Zash Over U+9000?
  92. dwd daniel, There's a gsoc@ MUC specifically for them to join, and we ask them to.
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  94. Tobias so we don't interrupt the ongoing board meeting here
  95. Ge0rG This board meeting is the best one. The longest board meeting. It's awesome.
  96. dwd Tobias, Alright for you. I've been taking minuites for the past six months.
  97. Ge0rG My Android won't show that secod glyph either, what is it?
  98. Tobias those minutes will probably blow up mailman when the meeing concludes
  99. Guus to be fair, I think that the subject has only been set like two weeks ago...
  100. daniel Ge0rG: time to get a new phone
  101. Ge0rG daniel: time to get a new OS update.
  102. Tobias Ge0rG, it's one of the ducks, obviously
  103. Ge0rG but maybe I'll get me a Nokia.
  104. dwd The subject was indeed set only in response to my assertion that nobody uses the subject.
  105. dwd And then left as-is, because nobody uses the subject...
  106. Tobias which kind of shows this UX inconsistency definilty needs to be fixed with MIX :)
  107. dwd Tobias, I'd honestly prefer we built a feature people actually wanted to use. But not a hill to die on, etc.
  108. dwd is just a grumpy old man on this - haha - subject.
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  112. Guus ghee, who knew that there was content under that 'recent events' list on the wiki? :)
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  181. Zash what the
  182. Guus ?
  183. Zash Looking at https://xmpp.org/software/libraries.html and noticed that the link for Verse points to the older unsupported version I never used, instead of the new one that's basically a subset of Prosody libraries.
  184. Guus I am looking forward to your PR :)
  185. Zash MattJ: Do you have a web page for the new verse, other than the source repo?
  186. Guus http://code.matthewwild.co.uk/verse ?
  187. Guus ah, that's the repo
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  189. Guus http://www.matthewwild.co.uk/projects/verse/home
  190. Zash Guus: PR'd
  191. Guus merged
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  193. uc Zash: hi, looking at babbler, it too points to old version.
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  195. Zash uc: Your turn to write a PR :)
  196. MattJ Thanks Zash
  197. uc Ok sorry, I think I forgot I clicked on something, it looks ok.
  198. Zash MattJ: You can thank me by writing docs for Verse :)
  199. Zash Guus: The in-Github editors syntax highlighting seemed upset about the unescaped * in "IP*Works Internet Toolkit". Is whatever does the rendering fine with \* ?
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  202. Ge0rG Can we please-pretty-please announce a sunset period for old clients, servers and libraries to jdev@ and kick out everything that didn't react within a month?
  203. Guus Zash - i don't know. Try and find out? I've added Vagrant-based instructions that should make it pretty easy to run a virtual machine with the website
  204. Guus Ge0rG: sure.
  205. Tobias Ge0rG, blablabla
  206. Ge0rG unfortunately, the according discussion in [board|council] dissipated into bikeshedding.
  207. Tobias Ge0rG, we need have an implementation ready first for our website publishing
  208. jonasw Tobias: have you worked on the jinja thing?
  209. Tobias jonasw, haven't gotten around doing that yet
  210. jonasw Tobias: need help? :)
  211. Zash Guus: Vawhatnow?
  212. jonasw I can into pelican and jinja2
  213. Tobias jonasw, if you have the time, feel free to do a PR on the xmpp.org repo that does this kind of thing. I'll be happy to review it
  214. Guus ash: https://www.vagrantup.com/
  215. Guus Zash: https://www.vagrantup.com/
  216. jonasw Tobias: okay :)
  217. Zash Website too flashy, I'm skeptical.
  218. Tobias if we have this ready in PR form and tested that it works, we can announce the new process on jdev, and merge the PR a week later and done
  219. Guus Zash: it predates stuff like docker, I think
  220. Ge0rG Tobias: how is website publishing happening now? I read Guus' #246 PR merge mail and wondered why I can't find the "getting started" page
  221. Bunneh Ge0rG: Mix #246 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/246
  222. Ge0rG Bunneh: no. wrong repository!
  223. Zash Ge0rG: How is Bunneh supposed to know?
  224. Guus Ge0rG: Yeah, I've been wondering about that too
  225. Ge0rG Zash: dunno. How am I supposed to tell it?
  226. Guus not sure what happened there - Locally, it worked fine.
  227. Guus I am *assuming* that the website gets periodically updated from github, automatically. If there's an actual person involved, then someone is now blocking that change and I'm not aware :)
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  229. Tobias Ge0rG, it's three parts, pelican building HTML files, and sed replacing a longish string in one HTML file with the list of XEPs
  230. Ge0rG Tobias: that was only two parts.
  231. Tobias the list of XEPs is generated on demand by the XEP editor, while the website is automatically rebuilt from master 3-4 times a day i think
  232. Tobias Ge0rG, don't tell me how to count my thoughts :P
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  234. Guus Tobias: Ge0rG is referring to a page that I added in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/246 - which was merged two days ago, but is not available on the website.
  235. Ge0rG Tobias: the two biggest problems in Computer Science: 2. Event Ordering; 1. Naming Things; and 3. Off-by-one errors
  236. Guus I assume I messed up somewhere, but I haven't spent the time to figure out what went wrong.
  237. jonasw FYI, starting to work on the overhaul of library pages with magic expiry
  238. Guus \o/
  239. Tobias jonasw, thx...if that works nicely, we can extend that to client and server pages too
  240. jonasw well, yes, I’m doing that all in one rush.
  241. jonasw or at least in a way which is easily extensible
  242. Ge0rG jonasw: sounds interesting
  243. Guus Ge0rG: I'd be grateful if you can figure out what went wrong with my merge though.
  244. Zash Is there like a manifest of pages cached somewhere?
  245. Ge0rG Guus: I'm sorry, I have no idea about how the website works internally
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  247. Guus Ge0rG: neither do I, but that's not stopping me :)
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  253. jonasw I’m going to spread the word on the XSF-GSOC, do any other projects have a nice overview page like this? https://conversations.im/gsoc.html
  254. Tobias jonasw, there is https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summer_of_Code_2017 but with less nice CSS on top of it
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  256. jonasw thanks!
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  285. jonasw Tobias: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/269
  286. jonasw worksforme locally, let’s see what travis thinks of it :)
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  288. Tobias jonasw, thx...will five that a review soon
  289. Kev That looks interesting, thanks.
  290. Tobias jonasw, thx...will give that a review soon
  291. Ge0rG jonasw: you could replace `last_renewed` with a bit of git-blame magic :P
  292. jonasw Ge0rG: what if someone fixes a typo or converts URLs to https without interacting with the project?
  293. Tobias right
  294. Ge0rG jonasw: and there is the opposite problem of a project that is maintained but where the record doesn't change ;)
  295. Tobias the idea is that the authors can issue PRs, that update the last_renew timestamp to a time in the past.
  296. Kev It's not much fun to issue PRs just for updating a timestamp, but it's also low-maintenance for the XSF and that seems like a good thing. And it's not too onerous.
  297. Kev It's certainly a not-very-contentious thing to get done Right Now.
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  299. jonasw as mentioned in the PR, updating a timestamp is done by .
  300. Ge0rG Kev: +1
  301. jonasw as mentioned in the PR, updating a timestamp is done by ./data/update-entry.py data/libraries.json $libraryname && git commit -avm "Update timestamp of $library" && git push
  302. jonasw that’s low maintenance even without PRs.
  303. jonasw gah, there are obvious bugs in that line, but you get the idea
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  305. Link Mauve I haven’t yet sent a formal proposal about a format for developers to describe their software, but I have worked on it and am planning on sending that soon-ish.
  306. Link Mauve It would remove the need to do a PR against every website listing their software.
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  308. Link Mauve https://linkmauve.fr/files/client-sample.xml for a WIP of which I’m very not satisfied yet, but trying to include the information I want to have available.
  309. jonasw Link Mauve: please make your server send a content-type for xml. firefox probably tries to render this as html because there’s no Content-Type header.
  310. Zash y u no disco#info
  311. Link Mauve As discussed at the summit, I also want it to be usable like on the w3c specification pages, where they list implementations directly on the page.
  312. Link Mauve Zash, because it’s highly incomplete, requires an instance of it to be online and reachable through s2s, requires this software to be a client or a server, etc.
  313. jonasw Link Mauve: looking at the XML: logo maybe as favicon?
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  315. Link Mauve jonasw, “Content-Type: text/xml; charset=utf-8”
  316. Zash Link Mauve: I mean the format, not the method
  317. Link Mauve Firefox is probably trying to be smart with the xmlns:xhtml.
  318. jonasw Link Mauve: why did firebug lie to me.
  319. Link Mauve Zash, and extend it with all of the informations we need?
  320. jonasw agh, looked at the wrong header because it came out of the cache :(
  321. Link Mauve Zash, and extend it with all of the information we need?
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  323. jonasw firefox bug then, I have never said a thing, Link Mauve
  324. jonasw Zash: Link Mauves XML even contains disco:identity
  325. Zash Link Mauve: Maybe, what info is required?
  326. Link Mauve jonasw, the final thing would probably be a RDF-like format, but I don’t know enough about RDF or the semantic web yet to design it like that immediately.
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  328. Zash Link Mauve: Sounds overkill
  329. Link Mauve Zash, have a look at the sample I posted.
  330. Link Mauve Zash, maybe, as I said I don’t know enough about it to make an informed decision.
  331. jonasw Zash: not neccessarily: using established formats makes it easy to parse with existing tooling
  332. jonasw og:image etc. are well-established tags, I’d be interested how tools like facebook react if you simply link that thing (and make the webserver pretend it’s XHTML… just to fool them)
  333. jonasw although, facebook etc. are notoriously bad with XHTML, especially when namespace prefixes are used :(
  334. Link Mauve jonasw, I would guess you don’t even need to pretend it’s XHTML, text/xml is already a valid XHTML content-type.
  335. jonasw it’ll probably still break on namespace prefixes :/
  336. SamWhited Everything is bad when namespace prefixes are used :) I'm always half tempted to suggest we write XMPP 2.0 with the only change being that namespace prefixes aren't allowed.
  337. Link Mauve I originally wanted to use these og: properties, but there was e.g. no way to specify the licence, or to specify what is a logo and what is a screenshot, so I gave up on that idea.
  338. jonasw SamWhited: with a proper XML parser, namespace prefixes are irrelevant to the application.
  339. Zash SamWhited: <stream xmlns="urn:xmpp:stanzas"> yeeeeaaaah
  340. SamWhited Zash: yes please!
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  342. Zash or just urn:xmpp?
  343. jonasw SamWhited: <iq xmlns="jabber:client"> for each stanza? :)
  344. SamWhited jonasw: No, default namespaces are still a thing, just not prefixes.
  345. Zash jonasw: jabber:client and jabber:server ought to go away completely
  346. jonasw right
  347. SamWhited Half the XML parsers out there aren't proper, or are buggy… it's just needless complexity that makes implementing XML difficult (which in theory I don't have to care about, but if <language-of-choice>'s built in XML parser is broken, I do)
  348. Zash SamWhited: This means no namespaced attributes.
  349. SamWhited Zash: Sounds good to me
  350. Zash SamWhited: You can start by getting Pidgin to get rid of {http://www.google.com/talk/protocol/auth}client-uses-full-bind-result='true' :)
  351. jonasw SamWhited: the instant stream resumption xep would break then :)
  352. Zash Redesign it
  353. SamWhited jonasw: Yah, it would be a backwards incompatible change; I'm pretty okay with that for a 2.0 version (not that I actually expect this to happen, it's just fun to think about; I have RFC modifications floating about for this somewhere :) )
  354. SamWhited Also, RE Pidgin: … wat?
  355. jonasw SamWhited: if you get rid of namespace prefixes altogether, why not go with JSON right away :)
  356. SamWhited jonasw: Because JSON doesn't have namespaces, and isn't really streamable.
  357. jonasw Link Mauve: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287 might be interesting for your usecase
  358. Zash SamWhited: GTalk compat stuff that annoys me because to no end as it shows up in logs all the time.
  359. SamWhited Zash: That hurts me :)
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  361. Link Mauve jonasw, Atom would be fine as a container format, to notify subscribers of new releases, but it doesn’t define any of the elements we will need in there.
  362. jonasw Link Mauve: atom:rights, atom:logo, atom:published, atom:updated, atom:title seem all like very relevant things; and it explicitly allows extensions in foreign namespaces
  363. Link Mauve jonasw, indeed, maybe I’ll use that as a container format, especially since I plan on requiring it to be hosted as a PubSub feed, so multiple websites can get notified of new versions.
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  366. jonasw Link Mauve: https://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml#link-relations-1 those may also be interesting (cf. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988 )
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  370. Link Mauve jonasw, thanks.
  371. jonasw (I once wrote a blog/static webpage framework before I came across pelican, I spent quite some time figuring out how to put metadata correctly into websites so that they produce nice snippets in social media)
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  376. Kev ralphm: Could you please add me to and make me an admin of https://trello.com/xmppstandardsfoundation/members ?
  377. Kev 'kevinsmith', I believe. The avatar is pretty obviously me.
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  411. SamWhited Do we already have a gsoc MUC somewhere? (eg. where should we point people who ask about XSF gsoc?)
  412. Zash gsoc@muc.xmpp.org ?
  413. SamWhited oh hey, yup, that worked. Thanks.
  414. SamWhited I should get a client that allows me to actually list rooms one day.
  415. SamWhited (although I suppose I should have just guessed that one)
  416. dwd SamWhited, Instead you have a conversational UI to search rooms with full natural language support, called "asking Zash".
  417. SamWhited dwd: It works pretty well in Conversations and Mcabber!
  418. dwd SamWhited, Cross-platform server-side, FTW.
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  440. jonasw @council: could you put https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-February/032328.html on your agenda for the next meeting?
  441. SamWhited jonasw: What would the actual discussion be about?
  442. jonasw whether a modification of XEP-115 is worth the trouble
  443. Zash Clarifying is always good
  444. SamWhited nods
  445. jonasw it’s more than clarifying
  446. SamWhited I'll add it as soon as us-east-1 comes back and the entire internet stops being broken.
  447. jonasw I can write up what I’m thinking about; it would re-do the concatenation of the disco information because as it currently stands it’s weird and it’s been discussed a few years back.
  448. SamWhited (or maybe Trello having trouble is unrelated, but I just got an alarm from Amazon and now nothing works, so I'm making the assumption that they're related…)
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  450. jonasw SamWhited: to be clear, I specifically include the suggestion by Florian: > And after we decided a successor of SHA-1 for XEP-0115 we could also fix the existing flaws of XEP-0115 like [1], because this would require a namespace bump anyway.
  451. Zash What requires a namespace bump?
  452. jonasw Zash: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-February/032324.html > But it may be sensible to change the mandatory hash algorithm of XEP-0155. And after we decided a successor of SHA-1 for XEP-0115 we could also fix the existing flaws of XEP-0115 like [1], because this would require a namespace bump anyway.
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  456. Zash Are there any clients using features such that their caps hash would change if the special characters were escaped?
  457. SamWhited Changing a new thing to be mandatory would require a bump, I think
  458. Zash What if we pretend that the algorithm was always like that?
  459. Zash Just, poorly documented
  460. Zash And put some text into an implementation note
  461. jonasw what escaping are you talking about?
  462. Zash Hrm, I lost my caps compression experiment :(
  463. Zash > Joe Hildebrand (one of the authors of the XEP) mentioned that his intention was that you would escape any "<" to "&lt;" in feature names. But this isn't specified in the XEP and isn't obvious.
  464. Zash jonasw: The [1]
  465. jonasw right, that wouldn’t help with Attack 3 and 4 outlined in [1]
  466. Zash poke waqas
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  469. Ge0rG Let's bump all the namespaces at once. It even better. Let's bump the namespace of XMPP to XMPP2!
  470. jonasw Ge0rG: you’re late to the party, SamWhited outlined XMPP 2.0 above
  471. SamWhited Ge0rG: That's part of my evil plan, *shhh*
  472. moparisthebest is it going to be json over http?
  473. moparisthebest cause then I'm out >:)
  474. Ge0rG With a DAG based storage backend?
  475. jonasw moparisthebest: https://i.imgur.com/cT3NEdI.gif ;-)
  476. moparisthebest I mean we might as well re-invent it right, why not, NIH syndrome is cool
  477. Zash Globally distributed DAG in MongoDB with extra blockchain on top?
  478. jonasw I am torn between existential despair and laughter.
  479. SamWhited Zash: You forgot the Docker; gotta use some Docker.
  480. SamWhited Otherwise it's not webscale.
  481. jonasw oh and Cloud
  482. moparisthebest right, and obviously the only choice for language is javascript running in node.js
  483. Zash http://howfuckedismydatabase.com/nosql/fault-tolerance.png
  484. moparisthebest yea that is my favorite one from that site
  485. moparisthebest maybe my favorite cartoon of all time
  486. jonasw now I need to watch Erlang The Movie again.
  487. moparisthebest especially the sick erlang burn (sorry ejabberd guys)
  488. SamWhited Erlang is one of the coolest languages ever made, and concepts from it (and other similar CSP style languages) should have become part of mainstream programming 20 years ago… and I still can't stand to write anything in it just because I hate reading it.
  489. jonasw disclaimer: I never knowingly saw a bit of erlang code.
  490. moparisthebest same jonasw I'm kind of ashamed to admit I've never looked at it at all :)
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  502. SamWhited Just for fun, if you're interested, watch this and spot the Erlang reference :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pTEmbeENF4
  503. SamWhited (and then still don't go write Erlang, because it will make your eyes bleed)
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  506. jonasw I wonder whether it’s worse than Cortex-M0 ASM
  507. moparisthebest I guess arc would be the only one that would know :)
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  509. Ge0rG Some years ago, when I still was running ejabberd, a student approached me for inspiration. I told him that erlang is awesome and totally different, and now he's working at a telco development company.
  510. moparisthebest using erlang?
  511. jonasw :D
  512. Ge0rG Yes
  513. moparisthebest my favorite dig at erlang is this: https://www.erlang-solutions.com/blog/mongooseim-2-0-0beta2-the-power-of-an-xmpp-platform-with-the-simplicity-of-a-rest-api.html
  514. Ge0rG Developing tr069 equipment and Hotspot login things
  515. moparisthebest knocks XML for being 'not trendy', uses erlang...
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  517. waqas Zash?
  518. Zash waqas: there was mention of the caps issue earlier
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  520. waqas I haven't read the backlog, but did it start with sha1?
  521. Zash I guess
  522. jonasw waqas: context is this: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-February/032324.html it appears that now is a good chance to fix xep 115
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  524. waqas Caps is completely broken. Updating the XEP to suggest XML escaping isn't going to fix it. Please read old threads for why. The caps algorithm is bad. sha-1 to sha-2/3 is meaningless given how broken the algorithm is.
  525. xnyhps has left
  526. jonasw waqas: yes, i mean actually fixing
  527. Ge0rG Wasn't there a workaround for clients to recalculate the checksum?
  528. waqas Not a working one Ge0rG. The simple workaround is to not share caps cache across JIDs.
  529. waqas And no server side implementation does that for PEP
  530. MattJ The "old thread" is https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-August/025011.html
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  532. waqas Which links to my older thread: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/security/2009-July/000812.html
  533. waqas Wow, it was 8 years ago
  534. MattJ Feel old? :)
  535. Ge0rG That ejabberd story made me feel old as well. Sigh.
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  538. Ge0rG Also that I'm using this nickname for over 20 years already.
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  547. daniel Security awareness doesn't seem to run very strong among in the xsf
  548. Zash That's what the IETF is for
  549. daniel That xep should be retracted
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  551. SamWhited It could use some pretty serious work…
  552. Zash It could use xep-300
  553. daniel SamWhited: just retract it. Copy past the xml over in a new xep with a new namespace and do the nul thing with sha2 Dave suggested 8 years ago
  554. daniel If you don't retract it it get forgotten for another 8 years
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  557. SamWhited oh, yah, it's draft, so maybe that would be the more practical course of action
  558. Valerian has left
  559. jonasw daniel: +1
  560. jonasw although it might be wise to not use NUL but the field separators in the last control characters up to U+0020
  561. jonasw that allows to convey the structure
  562. jonasw and they’re still disallowed in XML
  563. jonasw I’d be happy to write that up.
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  565. Zash Are you sure that they are disallowed?
  566. waqas Note that the null thing isn't sufficient. The data model is nested, and you need at least two delimiters, if not more.
  567. waqas \0 and \1 would work. Both are disallowed in XML.
  568. jonasw waqas: that’s why I suggest to use FS DS etc. from ASCII
  569. jonasw Zash: https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#charsets characters does not cover 0x00 through 0x1f, except for 0x09 (tab), 0x0a (newline), 0x0d (carriage return)
  570. Ge0rG There are field and record separator characters in ASCII. I'm even using those in my xmpp client
  571. jonasw this includes CDATA sections as well as normal text and attribute data
  572. jonasw Ge0rG: +1
  573. lskdjf has left
  574. Ge0rG But I felt dirty for implementing them.
  575. jonasw why? :)
  576. SamWhited has left
  577. Ge0rG Because I was abusing Android's key value XML storage to contain a table of ASCII separated key value pairs
  578. jonasw :D
  579. waqas Ge0rG: Was the hack really that dirty? I don't know what you did, but I'm reminded of the story of Mel. Read that one? :)
  580. lskdjf has joined
  581. Ge0rG waqas: nope
  582. waqas Ge0rG: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/mel.html
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  584. Ge0rG https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim/blob/master/src/org/yaxim/androidclient/data/YaximConfiguration.java#L195-L202
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  588. Ge0rG waqas: ah, that story!
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  592. waqas Zash, jonasw, Ge0rG: This is the important email in the thread, explaining the problem: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-August/025035.html
  593. waqas daniel: ^
  594. jonasw waqas: thanks
  595. jonasw that’s why I’m in favour of using the ASCII control codes for structural information. there are four control codepoints for that.
  596. waqas Sigh, that thread is painful to read. I was being such a pain :P
  597. kalkin has left
  598. jonasw you are right though :)
  599. waqas Always
  600. SamWhited Being a pain about security issues is a good thing.
  601. SamWhited Please keep doing it :)
  602. waqas Unfortunately it wasn't effective. Things went nowhere :)
  603. Zash Talking didn't help? How unusual :)
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  605. jonasw SamWhited: being in council (other council members may of course chime in) what do you think is more sensible? (a) write up a fresh XEP based on the idea of XEP-115 with new hash function and new algorithm to generate the input for the hash function, based on waqas thoughts (b) write up a patch for XEP-115 with new mandatory hash function and new algorithm to generate the input for the hash function, based on waqas thoughts (c) wait for the next council meeting before doing anything. (d) none of the above, please fill in here: _____________
  606. jonasw XEP-115 was hurting my eyes ever since I started implementing it, and I want to see it fixed.
  607. SamWhited jonasw: I'm with daniel; (a) makes the most sense to me. Actually doing it is a whole different matter though :)
  608. jonasw then I’m starting to do it right now.
  609. Zash <{newcaps}c node=''><{hashes}hash algo='sha-wesome'>ASDF</hash>{<hash/>...}</c>
  610. SamWhited
  611. Zash jonasw: do it
  612. Zash Do things and talk about them.
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  617. waqas I think we should just have a new XEP with a new namespace and a super simple algorithm.
  618. waqas Trying to patch XEP-115… I'm sure many would like to do that, but I've said my piece on my that's a bad idea.
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  625. SamWhited Does anyone happen to know where the canonical version of rfc2629.dtd lives (as an actual file so that I don't have to go through and remove all the page breaks and headers that get injected if I try to copy / paste from the RFC)?
  626. SamWhited Or does it live anywhere? All I can find are old draft copies on random non-IETF websites
  627. SamWhited or 7991 or whatever we're on now
  628. jonasw good night everyone
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  630. SamWhited aha! Found a tiny ihdden link on the xml2rfc page
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  636. SamWhited Trello just deployed some stuff to not-aws so it's back now; pretty sure someone wanted something on the agenda, but I don't remember what now… something about SHA-1.
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  638. Zash jonasw 18:51 @council: could you put https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-February/032328.html on your agenda for the next meeting?
  639. SamWhited Another thing I wish either of my clients had so that Zash wouldn't have to take the features place: Search.
  640. SamWhited (thanks)
  641. moparisthebest I'd be more concerned as to how Zash got access to your MAM archive SamWhited
  642. moparisthebest prosody backdoor? someone call the guardian!!!!!
  643. Zash By the use of a magical device called a scroll wheel.
  644. Zash It can see into the past
  645. daniel has left
  646. SamWhited I'm not actually sure there is a way to scroll in mcabber; I assume there is. I should probably figure out the shortcut for that.
  647. daniel has joined
  648. Zash Wild guess: Pg Up
  649. moparisthebest I can see the headline now "Popular chat server has backdoor, developer codname "ScrollWheel""
  650. moparisthebest I can see the headline now "Popular chat server has backdoor, developer codename "ScrollWheel""
  651. SamWhited nah, that changes to the previous/next chat.
  652. Zash ScrollWheel. SamWhited. Coincidence? I think not.
  653. SamWhited looks like Ctrl+P
  654. SamWhited TIL
  655. SamWhited I feel like I knew that at one point
  656. waqas That's for printing...
  657. Zash SamWhited: Hah. So, exact opposite to irssi.
  658. SamWhited yah, the keyboard shortcuts aren't the most consistent thing; some of them are random, some are irssi style, some are vim style
  659. SamWhited mostly I just use the vim style ones and don't know any of the others
  660. vurpo has left
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  662. arc what the bloody hell
  663. arc refering to the email that was just sent
  664. Guus has left
  665. SamWhited heh, yah, I wonder where he got that random list of people to send it too
  666. daniel has joined
  667. arc is he refering to the old defunct and should be removed XEPs or something new?
  668. SamWhited ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ one possible outcome of the IoT SIG's work would be to replace the existing stuff (or improve it before we consider advancing them) like we discussed at summit, so I guess he meant the old ones?
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  678. daniel The idea to throw 115 away came primarily from the desire to act now and deal with a replacement later
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  684. Ge0rG "The "S" in IoT stands for Security." just has become my quote of the year.
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  686. daniel SamWhited: /buffer up.
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  688. SamWhited oh hey, that too; thanks
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  690. moparisthebest another question because I'm curious, some members of council and board are up for membership renewal this time
  691. moparisthebest what happens if they don't get renewed?
  692. SamWhited There's only one way to find out! :)
  693. moparisthebest :)
  694. moparisthebest ok everyone vote no for Link Mauve so we can find out!
  695. Ge0rG moparisthebest: what incentives are you going to offer? Should I PM you my Bitcoin address?
  696. moparisthebest I'm curious, I'm not paying money curious :)
  697. Guus I for one shall follow Link Mauve in the to be created real XSF. The other XSFses are fake. #sad
  698. Ge0rG Guus: you will create the best xsf. An awesome xsf. There is no other xsf than yours?
  699. Guus Believe me. I create the GREATEST XSF. Be careful of the other ones. Full with bad hombres.
  700. Guus But I am sleepy. Anarchy is postponed until tomorrow. Goodnight.
  701. moparisthebest still waiting on a joke about a wall
  702. SamWhited moparisthebest: Guus' probably going to turn off federation with the other XSFs (and make them pay for it)
  703. moparisthebest thanks
  704. Guus I see that my work here is done.
  705. Zash Something something we're going to build a mod_firewall ... oh wait
  706. Ge0rG Zash: and forbid the Russians to send us messages?
  707. SamWhited ooh yah, that one's better
  708. Ge0rG You meant "bitter"?
  709. SamWhited Too true
  710. Zash We need a joke about proof of work things too
  711. waqas Pow!
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  713. Ge0rG Zash: the xsf has proven to work by holding its longest board meeting yet. We don't know how long it is, but it's going on for two weeks already, and it's the best board meeting. It's an awesome board meeting
  714. Ge0rG How much Bitcoin can you make with cheap jokes?
  715. Ge0rG How many xsf members does it take to replace a lightb^W cryptographic hash function?
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  731. Tobias waqas, you mean kung pow?
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  733. Ge0rG Tobias: really awesome movie!
  734. lskdjf has joined
  735. Tobias indeed
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