jonasw(re 21:44:26 Ge0rG> "The "S" in IoT stands for Security." just has become my quote of the year.)
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nycohuh... is there a board meeting?
ZashNever ending board meeting, yes
nycooh right
nycoso is the gavel continuously banging? I don't hear it
SamWhited(I keep meaning to ask RE the never ending board meeting jokes: is there a subject or something set that mcabber doesn't show? IDGI)
Zash/topic
mathieuiSamWhited, the topic
Zash> The room subject is now: Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
SamWhitedHuh, I don't see that; maybe mcabber never updates the subject
SamWhitedI see
SamWhited> XSF discussion room | Logs:…
ZashHa
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SamWhitedoh no, I had this discussion with someone; that's the title of the bookmark (set by Mcabber or Conversations or whatever I added it with) which I guess was the title at the time; mcabber shows whatever the bookmark contains
SamWhitedThese jokes are lost on me :)
Ge0rGThe subject that is the topic, but not the description?
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ZashThat's ... sorta sensible I guess
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Ge0rGSamWhited: why should it set the subject as the name?
SamWhitedShowing the bookmark title seems sensible, not sure about setting the bookmark title to the subject (but I'm also not sure what I created this bookmark with in the first place, so no idea where that came from)
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Ge0rGEasy XMPP clients will show the disco#info name. I'm sure they will.
SamWhitedGe0rG: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I think it's probably Conversations that does this, so ask there
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Ge0rGUnfortunately, the name of this MUC is "xsf".
SamWhitedmaybe we should have a name, a pretty name, a description, a subject, and a bookmark name. *pokerface*
ralphmHi all
nycohi
Ge0rGSamWhited: so the first item would be the "ugly name"?
SamWhitedGe0rG: yup, the never-changing single-word-no-spaces-no-special-chars name (no idea why, just 'cause). Maybe it's the local part of the JID.
Ge0rGSamWhited: see you in the SgmLxqI+A0tOdwPfVXNdd1H4 chat room.
archoly crap.
arcGoogle can't even federate their own chat apps.
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm1. Welcome
Ge0rGthe board meeting goes into its third week
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ralphmWho's there, any agenda items?
Martin*wave*
dwdtakes some minutes.
arcPresent
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ralphmI assume nyco, too.
nycoyep
ralphmDo we have MattJ?
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nycohttps://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
ralphmAs a note upfront, I've been swamped with work and haven't kept tabs on anything XMPP for the last two weeks.
ralphmOne item for me is IEEE
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ralphmanything else?
nycoDiscourse, Board priorities
ralphmOK
ralphm2. IEEE
ralphmWe
arcWhat happened to a decision on software listed on the site?
arcThat's old business
ralphm've received a message from William Miller on IEEE IoT efforts and their desire to incorporate our IoT specs in more of their work.
arcBut they're not our specs. The XEPs they are referring to are expired and defunct
ralphmAsking to move them to Active
ralphmI don't want to go into the details in this meeting.
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ralphmI think we should ask Council to provide guidance on how to move forward, and possibly appoint a liason to the IEEE for this work.
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arc+1
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arcthird party people implementing defunct XEPs and pushing them as standards to other standards groups is a situation we need council to get on top of
SamWhitedWith my council hat on (though I can't speak for everyone else of course) I think this is a matter for the IoT SIG to decide; if they want to improve the current XEPs, they will be reopened, if not, they can create new ones (possibly while working with the IEEE group)
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SamWhitedBut I do agree that if we *don't* want to improve the existing ones (and I think the consensus at the summit was that we don't), then we should definitely be careful to try and stop people from implementing them if there are known issues or we're not going to push them as official standards.
ralphmI'm not sure if they really need these specs per se, but rather just XMPP-based ones.
MattJHey, sorry, another meeting overran
arcI'd like someone from board to reach out to Mr Miller re: XSF membership, they should have at least one person from their firm if they're implementing
dwdWith my Council hat on, the IoT SIG is subject to Council, so if Board asks the Council to Do Something, then I imagine Council will ask the IoT SIG and make a decision based on that input. But a Liaison as a first step seems sensible.
SamWhitednods
ralphmAnd even though there is an IoT SIG, this is exactly why I wanted a Council person to be heading the IoT SIG
arche appears to be in Washington DC given his phone number. I'd be happy to reach out to him, have coffee with him, etc
ralphmSure thing.
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ralphmSamWhited: can council at least work with Rikard and the IoT SIG to come up with a strategy?
ralphmI don't think "we're throwing away the current specs" is a sensible approach to start interacting with IEEE
SamWhitedralphm: That sounds sensible; I didn't mean to suggest that we shouldn't be involved. I'll add an agenda item for next week
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SamWhitedhttps://trello.com/c/5SHoH80M
SamWhitedDone; comments can go there if you want us to discuss anything in particular next week.
ralphmWho wants to formulate a response to William to kick off interaction with the IEEE?
ralphmI'd like that to not wait until next week
dwdIs that not Arc's coffee meeting?
ralphmMaybe yes
arcim not going to meet with him about IEEE as much as to understand what his firm is doing and explain what XSF is, encourage membership, etc
arcleaving council issues aside, the part of the email that stuck out is he's speak from outside the XSF. and we really want implementors in the XSF.
dwdI'd have thought that's a reasonable first response.
ralphmarc: sure, we can to the actual IEEE liasoning or whatever later.
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arcI think council does need to come up with a strategy for the iot stuff besides this
dwdarc, Agreed.
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ralphmYes, so that's part of what SamWhited's agenda item
ralphmAny other comments on this?
MattJNone here, sounds like a plan
ralphm3. Discourse
MartinYep, sounds good to me
ralphmnyco?
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nycoyes, the thread on the mailing list
nycoalso: Je pense
SamWhitedRE Discourse: If this is seriously being considered, I would like to have a(nother?) public comment period so that I can complain about what a terrible experience it is a lot. I won't waste time in the council meeting with it though.
ralphmI haven't read the discussion in great detail, but don't feel we have problem that needs resolving here
ralphmon a technical level
nycowe indeed have issues, that are worth admitting
nycoDiscourse is a great solution
arcI'm not so hot on Discourse too, and agree with the sentiment that we should aim for an XMPP based solution
MattJI haven't used it, so can't really comment
arcadding a new discussion media is a long term burden to the XSF that shouldn't be done lightly
nycowe discussed quite extensively at the Summit around modernism
we lack this, like very badly
also, we should lower the barrier of entry
ralphmI'm happy for people to play with this, but I'd hate to use this as a main thing for any of our current mailing lists before gaining significant experience.
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nycoralphm, mailing list is still there
MattJMaybe we could trial it for some discussion venues, but not others?
nycoMattJ, IoT WG
ralphmnyco: but not the mailman archives, right?
nycoMattJ, also maybe if we wake the CommTeam back from the dead?
dwdnyco, No, thanks. I'd rather it was used for jdev, or something else that's not a SIG.
nycoralphm, better archives, with real search that brings actual results, and tagging
SamWhitedWorth answering (but not necessarily right now): If we trial it for a WG, can we be sure that we can get to the archives later or move back to a mailing list if we decide not to use it long term?
ralphmI a trial can be done without any changes in the current setup, as an add-on, I'm ok
SamWhited(or anywhere really, but especially if it's an official function of the XSF like a WG)
ralphmif
Flowlikes to point out that the IoT SIG would want to use discourse
ralphmnyco: I'm sure everything is nicer, better, awesomer. I'd like to not have an disruption to the current setup.
ralphmany
nycoralphm, agree
ralphmFlow: I know, but I also don't want IoT to not be on an island. Especially not IoT.
nycomailman 2 is an island
nycowe're all on it... :'(
dwdHow about setting up an entirely new discussion venue?
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ralphmdwd: hm?
MattJThat's kinda what I meant
nycodwd, yeah on Slack!
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dwdCreate, say, a UX "list", but make it Discourse (or something) instead.
ralphmOh. In that case, something like SCAM would be appropriate
MattJSome measurement of success would be to ensure not just that the new system was used, but also that existing XSF members participated in it
ralphmRight
arcto quote the Zen of Python, "Now is better than never, Although never is often better than *right* now."
nycoor not
MattJWe don't want to throw out our existing community in an attempt to appear shiny to other groups of people
nycoity uccess, right?
arcI want to reraise the issue that Discourse is not in any way XMPP based.
MattJI'd wager most of our existing community is just fine with the current setup (except searchable archives would be nice)
arcthis was a concern raised on the thread.
FlowLook at Discourse as you would look at an upgrade from Mailman2 to Mailman3
ralphmSo the question becomes, who is doing it?
MattJarc, for that matter, mailman is in no way XMPP based :)
FlowNobody is throwing out the existing community by using Discourse
nycoarc, so it mailman
nycois
arcmailman is simply email. It doesn't use fancy realtime features more suitable to XMPP
MattJFlow, that sounds great - though I've heard conflicting opinions on whether that's true (I can't say myself as I haven't used it)
ralphmWe're in overtime.
nycowe will attract non-members, which is good(tm)
ralphmSo, again, who's taking this on, and do what?
Flowralphm: I already volunteered
SamWhitedI've been using it for the past few weeks since this came up; I resubscribed to the rust-users list (which I unsubscribed from before a few weeks after they moved to Discourse) to see if things had changed. I turned on mailing list mode, and used it from my client. It was not a plesant experience.
nycolet's just start to install it for IoT SIG
MattJSamWhited, concrete issues would be helpful to know (but not necessarily right here right now)
arcI'm -1 on implementing this. I don't think a strong enough argument has been made for its need, and it could add a signifigant future burden to migration in the future
nycothe current experience is less than pleasant
nycostuck in the past
nycowe need that wave of modernism
nycowell contemporarism
SamWhitedI think I outlined them on the list last time, but if this discussion starts up I'll go through and write out the individual pain points again.
ralphmI'm -1 on implementing this for an existing group, and specifically for IoT
nycothey want it
ralphmThey also wanted Skype for Business
MattJLet's (someone?) set up a new venue for starters, that's an actual first step
nycoso you're saying what they want is irrelevant?
arcnyco: I don't disagree with you that this would be good, the arguments against Discourse are on the merits of Discourse itself, not against innovative solutions
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ralphmnyco: no, I'm saying that we as an organisation are responsible for it working properly
MattJThen after it's up, we can discuss moving venues to it at a later date
SamWhitedNot irrelevant, but also not the top concern; they may want it, but the rest of the XSF has to read this stuff too, and having archives will be important later. There are just more considerations than "they want it and it's shiny"
ralphmand I think IoT has other, bigger issues
arcnyco: I am not joining the IoT SIG exactly because of their choices of non-XMPP mediums for discussion.
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Flowarc: We use Jitsi Meet since months
MattJI have no idea what work is currently being done in the IoT SIG, nor how to find out
MattJI didn't know it was still active
arcexactly, MattJ
nycoDiscourse will make that visible... ;-)
MattJMmmmhm
FlowThe visibility of Mailman2 mailing lists
ZashCan you all pretend that I asked "Why?" to every statement in here?
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FlowI'm sure you can easily follow what happened in iot@ by reading the mailman2 archive
Flow, not.
SamWhitedWhy would Discourse make that any easier to follow?
ralphmnyco: it wouldn't make it more visible. The last message before today was January 8
nycoralphm, yes, it would, that's one of the points
ralphmhttps://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/iot/
FlowSamWhited: No subpages per months, as starter.
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ralphmI can follow my e-mail client archives just fine, and I agree with MattJ
MattJDidn't the IETF have a nicer browser for mailman archives, if this is the issue?
SamWhitedOh, I see, you're assuming the web interface. Yah, that's pretty bad, however, Discourse's non-web interface is pretty bad, so we're just trading one bad interface for another.
FlowMattJ: That's one of the issues
MattJi.e. I'm sure existing work has been done in this area
nycoralphm, so can you with Discourse
ralphmnyco: my point is that I don't believe non-movement in IoT is going to be solved by new technology for discussion
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nycoralphm, true, but non-movement on our discussion means are killing
Flowralphm: As Guus what he thought about moving Openfire to github years ago. And read what he now writes in the ignite realtime blog
Ge0rGCan't we just ask politely to add the list of affected xeps into the subject when posting to our lists?
ZashThere are prettier web frontends to mailing lists around, like Nabble, http://lua.2524044.n2.nabble.com/
ZashSo it's doable
SamWhitedThat's different; GitHub is a central community with network effect. A Discourse instance isn't.
arcI think the correct way forward on this is to have a discussion session for future-comms where multiple solutions can be discussed. Not simply a "I think we should move to X solution".
nycoZash, still ugly and old style, frightening
ralphmarc: form?
nycoSamWhited, to achieve network effect thanks to its value, then do lower the barrier of entry
SamWhitednyco: However, for many it reduces value
arcmailing list or a MUC chat
FlowNo, correct way to move forward is to do something. But within the XSF you will always find someone who is opposing that is why nothing happens ever.
nycoSamWhited, I'm saying network value, Metcalfe's Law
nycoFlow, agree, non-action hurts so badly
FlowIt was similar with the new xmpp.org homepage
nycodon't give me the problem of resources
FlowSimon also got yelled at for trying to move forward
nycothe non-members, the external communities than we need so badly, will welcome that move
ralphmFlow: ok, if you can set up Discourse in such a way that we *also* keep having archives in Mailman as we have now, you have my blessing.
ralphmIs that possible?
arcI'm ok with that, too.
nycowhy not disrupt?
nycoare you doing nothing, to keep the comfort of a few?
Flowralphm: My idea was roughly to start with a test setup, and then switch one ML after another ot discourse and then eventually make mailman2 read-only.
dwdnyco, You know that disruption isn't a means to an end?
nycodwd, ;-)
ralphmFlow: ok, but can you run in hybrid mode?
arcFlow: enough concerns have been raised to that, its not going to happen
FlowWe can always try to find someone to migrate the old posts to discourse if we want
Flowarc: Concerns like?
nycoarc, enough concerns have been raised to stay that way
arcthis isn't one person objecting. several people have concerns over the proposal
Flowralphm: hybrid mode?
nycoarc, several people are all for it
nycoif we want actual numbers, we can call for a survey
arcsomething as fundamental as our communication medium affects everyone. for that, there should be rough consensus to change.
SamWhitedThis isn't about numbers or a vote, it's about the people who are for it assuming that the burden of proof to show that this is a good idea is on everyone else and not addressing the valid concerns brought up by others on the list.
Flowyeah, a members vote would be great thing to get a feeling what the XSF members think
SamWhited(although I'm not against gathering numbers or data, of course, why not? Sounds nice.)
nycoarc, the state of our current infra is affecting everyone, including the ones who don't join, because...
FlowSamWhited: I think I've addressed most, if not all, concerns raised on the ML thread
dwdFlow, I think running up a discourse instance with a real - but not critical - workload would be a sensible step.
dwdFlow, We could also then try other options (Movim, maybe?).
ralphmFlow: what I said before: if you can run it such that messages go to both Discourse and Mailman's archive, then please go ahead
ralphmSame with other platforms
nycodwd, why Movim?
dwdnyco, Why not?
ralphmI want to stop this discussion as part of this meeting now.
nycodwd, because mailing list?
nycook
arcFlow: If I'm not mistaken, what you want is a more modern communications medium. Your chosen solution to that is Discourse. But other solutions could meet your needs. That is why we should discuss this in a new-comms meeting
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nycoarc, I have not seen any equivalent, please enlighten us
ralphmplease stop
arcralphm is right, we're way over time.
Flowralphm: Well I suppose you could do that with the help of your MTA. But I'm not sure if it's a good idea. What would be the advantage?
nycoso, we end the meeting? or address the last agenda item?
ralphmFlow: I want to either have a setup that doesn't involve current workgroups so we can test, evaluate, *or* something that doesn't affect the current infra
ralphm(so that Discourse would just be an alternative interface)
nycoI propose we put an end to that meeting
MattJSeconded
ralphmnyco: I'm still at the office with a 2 hour commute ahead. I'm going to end this meeting
nycothe neverending meeting may have a one-week pause
ralphmI'm happy for people to keep discussing this afterwards
nycook then thanks all! it was a great discussion!
ralphm4. Date of next
ralphm+1W
nyco+1
ralphm5. Close
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphmThanks all!
MattJThanks
nycothx, see yah
arcThanks ralph
MartinThanks ralphm,
SamWhitedFlow: Yah, sorry, went back and looked, I never did send my concerns about it, so obviously you didn't reply to them :) will do that next time this comes up on the mailing list or whenever arc's comms meeting happens.
FlowIt's interesting how our experience divergates. Discourse has major traction within the open-source forum software. I find it very enjoyable on mobile and on my workstation, and I really like that I can use it just like mailman
ralphmFlow: please don't feel discouraged. I am really curious about new things, but worried about inertia and continuity.
ZashMattJ: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/
MattJZash, I know. Source doesn't appear to be available?
MattJCan't find it
SamWhitedI'm pretty sure the disagreement is going to be starkly divided down the line of how it's used: If you use the web/mobile apps, it's very nice. If you use it as a mailing list, it's terrible.
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FlowWell I already decreased my investment in XSF stuff, because it is nearly impossible to change something. Discourse on the other hand is something that I really think the XSF needs most right now. So it's the only thing I currently pursue
FlowSamWhited: Did they run a version which included https://github.com/discourse/discourse/commit/74b6fe8739d86dc2284707e8507ac732420a1b8c ?
SamWhitedI still don't understand what benefit it gives us that a search box and a slightly nicer interface wouldn't
FlowJust hat you can tag threads with the xep numbers is a huge win IMHO
SamWhitedFlow: That was one of the changes between last time and this time when I tried it, they did, and it was *much* better. But still a pretty terrible experience.
FlowLooking forward to your elaboration what made it so terrible on members@ thread
SamWhited(or at least, I assume that was one of the changes; that would explain a lot of the improvements around replying)
MattJZash, well done
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FlowOur Mailing List, especially standards@, is a huge pile of valuable information, yet it's not really accessible
SamWhitedIt sends a bunch of garbage HTML, doesn't use conventions in the plain text version (and leaks some form of [bbcode] or something into the plain text), it sends different "topics" from different email addresses so it's hard to write filters (though admittedly, this sounds like it could be how the rust-users and rust-internal instances were configured), off the top of my head. There were others; replies were broken somehow still, but I don't recall now, I'd have to go look.
MattJFlow, Discourse won't fix that unless it can import the archives (can it?)
FlowSure you can. You just probably need to write the code doing so
FlowBut I think 1. that there are many mailman2 instances upgrading to discourse, so it's only a matter of time until someone does write that code
SamWhitedWhat's wrong with this IETF thing? It looks nice and would fix the accessibility problem (assuming we can get the source from them, which I'm sure we could)
arcFlow: again, I think decoupling the specific solution you've chosen to champion from the needs to be addresed is a good first step
Flowand 2. we can always do the import later
SamWhitedWhat arc said
Flowyeah, i'm already sold on discourse for various reasons
Flowso I don't need to decouple that
SamWhitedYou do if you want to convince anyone else
Flowtrue, but not everyone
FlowIMHO Discourse is without alternatives and the best horse to bet on
arcthat's not a great position to bring to a discussion like this.
Flowwhy not? I try to back my claims with arguments. And I'm happy if you convince me of an different alternative
ZashFlow: Take this: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6778 s/IETF/XSF/ and call it a day ;)
arcI haven't made a decision yet. What you're feeling as push-back is against the "right now" aspect to your drive. XSF has used MUC and email forever. The board, council, and most WGs use these.
arcThe first part of the push-back is the expediency, people have said that the case hasn't been made to why these things have to change right now.
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MattJWell to be fair, if not "right now" then it'll be never, based on experience :)
arc"Now is better than never, although never is often better than *right* now"
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arcthat comes from the python-dev list. very (very) often people comes through saying that X or Y or Z is mission critical, that Python is driving away potential new users because it doesn't have a feature, or a change to the C-API is absolutely necessary or they couldn't use Python, etc
arcin almost every case decisions made "right now" are regretted.
SamWhitedMaybe someone (don't really care who, but it probably shouldn't be someone who's completely against Discourse like me, or completely for it like Flow) should evaluate several options and report back instead of us just making it an argument about "discourse or nothing". Other options have been thrown out, but the gist of the argument has mostly been about moving to discourse, not about improving in general.
arcMattJ is right, we need to act on it or it'll be forgotten. So Flow and nyco have ruffled feathers, people are activated, lets sit down like engineers and sort out what we want to do
arcI have questions as to MIX - in 2 years when we're all using MIX instead of MUC, will it be possible to merge our chat conversations with mailing list conversations in a meaningful way
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nycoThe timeline may be of a lesser importance here
ZashMerging slow, long form communications with quick, short form comms is probably not very easy in non-technical ways.