XSF Discussion - 2017-03-01

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05:53:12 jonasw Ge0rG, :D
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05:59:50 jonasw (re 21:44:26 Ge0rG> "The "S" in IoT stands for Security." just has become my quote of the year.)
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16:51:21 nyco huh... is there a board meeting?
16:51:44 Zash Never ending board meeting, yes
16:52:11 nyco oh right
16:52:33 nyco so is the gavel continuously banging? I don't hear it
16:53:07 SamWhited (I keep meaning to ask RE the never ending board meeting jokes: is there a subject or something set that mcabber doesn't show? IDGI)
16:53:18 Zash /topic
16:53:18 mathieui SamWhited, the topic
16:53:35 Zash > The room subject is now: Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
16:53:57 SamWhited Huh, I don't see that; maybe mcabber never updates the subject
16:54:03 SamWhited I see
16:54:06 SamWhited > XSF discussion room | Logs:…
16:54:14 Zash Ha
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16:54:42 SamWhited oh no, I had this discussion with someone; that's the title of the bookmark (set by Mcabber or Conversations or whatever I added it with) which I guess was the title at the time; mcabber shows whatever the bookmark contains
16:54:53 SamWhited These jokes are lost on me :)
16:55:03 Ge0rG The subject that is the topic, but not the description?
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16:55:04 Zash That's ... sorta sensible I guess
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16:55:27 Ge0rG SamWhited: why should it set the subject as the name?
16:55:47 SamWhited Showing the bookmark title seems sensible, not sure about setting the bookmark title to the subject (but I'm also not sure what I created this bookmark with in the first place, so no idea where that came from)
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16:56:18 Ge0rG Easy XMPP clients will show the disco#info name. I'm sure they will.
16:56:23 SamWhited Ge0rG: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I think it's probably Conversations that does this, so ask there
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16:56:25 Ge0rG Unfortunately, the name of this MUC is "xsf".
16:57:01 SamWhited maybe we should have a name, a pretty name, a description, a subject, and a bookmark name. *pokerface*
16:57:04 ralphm Hi all
16:57:12 nyco hi
16:58:05 Ge0rG SamWhited: so the first item would be the "ugly name"?
16:58:55 SamWhited Ge0rG: yup, the never-changing single-word-no-spaces-no-special-chars name (no idea why, just 'cause). Maybe it's the local part of the JID.
16:59:31 Ge0rG SamWhited: see you in the SgmLxqI+A0tOdwPfVXNdd1H4 chat room.
16:59:41 arc holy crap.
16:59:52 arc Google can't even federate their own chat apps.
17:00:21 ralphm bangs gavel
17:00:51 ralphm 1. Welcome
17:00:55 Ge0rG the board meeting goes into its third week
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17:01:07 ralphm Who's there, any agenda items?
17:01:13 Martin *wave*
17:01:22 dwd takes some minutes.
17:01:32 arc Present
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17:02:09 ralphm I assume nyco, too.
17:02:13 nyco yep
17:02:15 ralphm Do we have MattJ?
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17:02:18 nyco https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
17:02:59 ralphm As a note upfront, I've been swamped with work and haven't kept tabs on anything XMPP for the last two weeks.
17:03:58 ralphm One item for me is IEEE
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17:04:32 ralphm anything else?
17:05:12 nyco Discourse, Board priorities
17:05:20 ralphm OK
17:05:54 ralphm 2. IEEE
17:05:55 ralphm We
17:06:21 arc What happened to a decision on software listed on the site?
17:06:41 arc That's old business
17:06:53 ralphm 've received a message from William Miller on IEEE IoT efforts and their desire to incorporate our IoT specs in more of their work.
17:07:33 arc But they're not our specs. The XEPs they are referring to are expired and defunct
17:07:36 ralphm Asking to move them to Active
17:07:56 ralphm I don't want to go into the details in this meeting.
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17:08:21 ralphm I think we should ask Council to provide guidance on how to move forward, and possibly appoint a liason to the IEEE for this work.
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17:08:34 arc +1
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17:09:07 arc third party people implementing defunct XEPs and pushing them as standards to other standards groups is a situation we need council to get on top of
17:09:18 SamWhited With my council hat on (though I can't speak for everyone else of course) I think this is a matter for the IoT SIG to decide; if they want to improve the current XEPs, they will be reopened, if not, they can create new ones (possibly while working with the IEEE group)
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17:10:15 SamWhited But I do agree that if we *don't* want to improve the existing ones (and I think the consensus at the summit was that we don't), then we should definitely be careful to try and stop people from implementing them if there are known issues or we're not going to push them as official standards.
17:11:09 ralphm I'm not sure if they really need these specs per se, but rather just XMPP-based ones.
17:11:19 MattJ Hey, sorry, another meeting overran
17:11:21 arc I'd like someone from board to reach out to Mr Miller re: XSF membership, they should have at least one person from their firm if they're implementing
17:11:41 dwd With my Council hat on, the IoT SIG is subject to Council, so if Board asks the Council to Do Something, then I imagine Council will ask the IoT SIG and make a decision based on that input. But a Liaison as a first step seems sensible.
17:11:55 SamWhited nods
17:12:01 ralphm And even though there is an IoT SIG, this is exactly why I wanted a Council person to be heading the IoT SIG
17:12:12 arc he appears to be in Washington DC given his phone number. I'd be happy to reach out to him, have coffee with him, etc
17:12:58 ralphm Sure thing.
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17:13:36 ralphm SamWhited: can council at least work with Rikard and the IoT SIG to come up with a strategy?
17:14:28 ralphm I don't think "we're throwing away the current specs" is a sensible approach to start interacting with IEEE
17:14:30 SamWhited ralphm: That sounds sensible; I didn't mean to suggest that we shouldn't be involved. I'll add an agenda item for next week
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17:15:55 SamWhited https://trello.com/c/5SHoH80M
17:16:13 SamWhited Done; comments can go there if you want us to discuss anything in particular next week.
17:16:28 ralphm Who wants to formulate a response to William to kick off interaction with the IEEE?
17:16:34 ralphm I'd like that to not wait until next week
17:16:57 dwd Is that not Arc's coffee meeting?
17:17:20 ralphm Maybe yes
17:17:40 arc im not going to meet with him about IEEE as much as to understand what his firm is doing and explain what XSF is, encourage membership, etc
17:18:19 arc leaving council issues aside, the part of the email that stuck out is he's speak from outside the XSF. and we really want implementors in the XSF.
17:18:35 dwd I'd have thought that's a reasonable first response.
17:19:09 ralphm arc: sure, we can to the actual IEEE liasoning or whatever later.
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17:19:28 arc I think council does need to come up with a strategy for the iot stuff besides this
17:19:40 dwd arc, Agreed.
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17:20:12 ralphm Yes, so that's part of what SamWhited's agenda item
17:20:37 ralphm Any other comments on this?
17:20:48 MattJ None here, sounds like a plan
17:21:05 ralphm 3. Discourse
17:21:06 Martin Yep, sounds good to me
17:21:10 ralphm nyco?
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17:21:38 nyco yes, the thread on the mailing list
17:21:51 nyco also: Je pense
17:21:54 SamWhited RE Discourse: If this is seriously being considered, I would like to have a(nother?) public comment period so that I can complain about what a terrible experience it is a lot. I won't waste time in the council meeting with it though.
17:21:55 nyco oops
17:22:02 nyco https://trello.com/c/qcPd55vA/260-use-discourse-on-discuss-xmpp-org
17:22:04 SamWhited s/council/board/
17:22:25 dwd nyco, Donc, je suis?
17:22:32 nyco more or less ;-)
17:22:33 ralphm I haven't read the discussion in great detail, but don't feel we have problem that needs resolving here
17:22:38 ralphm on a technical level
17:23:01 nyco we indeed have issues, that are worth admitting
17:23:09 nyco Discourse is a great solution
17:23:24 arc I'm not so hot on Discourse too, and agree with the sentiment that we should aim for an XMPP based solution
17:23:34 MattJ I haven't used it, so can't really comment
17:24:55 arc adding a new discussion media is a long term burden to the XSF that shouldn't be done lightly
17:24:59 nyco we discussed quite extensively at the Summit around modernism we lack this, like very badly also, we should lower the barrier of entry
17:25:02 ralphm I'm happy for people to play with this, but I'd hate to use this as a main thing for any of our current mailing lists before gaining significant experience.
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17:25:20 nyco ralphm, mailing list is still there
17:25:27 MattJ Maybe we could trial it for some discussion venues, but not others?
17:25:37 nyco MattJ, IoT WG
17:25:45 ralphm nyco: but not the mailman archives, right?
17:25:52 nyco MattJ, also maybe if we wake the CommTeam back from the dead?
17:26:10 dwd nyco, No, thanks. I'd rather it was used for jdev, or something else that's not a SIG.
17:26:13 nyco ralphm, better archives, with real search that brings actual results, and tagging
17:26:20 SamWhited Worth answering (but not necessarily right now): If we trial it for a WG, can we be sure that we can get to the archives later or move back to a mailing list if we decide not to use it long term?
17:26:33 ralphm I a trial can be done without any changes in the current setup, as an add-on, I'm ok
17:26:35 SamWhited (or anywhere really, but especially if it's an official function of the XSF like a WG)
17:26:36 ralphm if
17:26:41 Flow likes to point out that the IoT SIG would want to use discourse
17:27:11 ralphm nyco: I'm sure everything is nicer, better, awesomer. I'd like to not have an disruption to the current setup.
17:27:16 ralphm any
17:27:24 nyco ralphm, agree
17:27:39 ralphm Flow: I know, but I also don't want IoT to not be on an island. Especially not IoT.
17:27:57 nyco mailman 2 is an island
17:28:06 nyco we're all on it... :'(
17:28:10 dwd How about setting up an entirely new discussion venue?
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17:28:25 ralphm dwd: hm?
17:28:26 MattJ That's kinda what I meant
17:28:40 nyco dwd, yeah on Slack!
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17:29:03 dwd Create, say, a UX "list", but make it Discourse (or something) instead.
17:29:30 ralphm Oh. In that case, something like SCAM would be appropriate
17:29:54 MattJ Some measurement of success would be to ensure not just that the new system was used, but also that existing XSF members participated in it
17:30:04 ralphm Right
17:30:08 arc to quote the Zen of Python, "Now is better than never, Although never is often better than *right* now."
17:30:09 nyco or not
17:30:12 MattJ We don't want to throw out our existing community in an attempt to appear shiny to other groups of people
17:30:30 nyco ity uccess, right?
17:30:32 arc I want to reraise the issue that Discourse is not in any way XMPP based.
17:30:36 MattJ I'd wager most of our existing community is just fine with the current setup (except searchable archives would be nice)
17:30:39 arc this was a concern raised on the thread.
17:30:44 Flow Look at Discourse as you would look at an upgrade from Mailman2 to Mailman3
17:30:53 ralphm So the question becomes, who is doing it?
17:30:56 MattJ arc, for that matter, mailman is in no way XMPP based :)
17:30:56 Flow Nobody is throwing out the existing community by using Discourse
17:31:02 nyco arc, so it mailman
17:31:04 nyco is
17:31:24 arc mailman is simply email. It doesn't use fancy realtime features more suitable to XMPP
17:31:31 MattJ Flow, that sounds great - though I've heard conflicting opinions on whether that's true (I can't say myself as I haven't used it)
17:31:38 ralphm We're in overtime.
17:31:48 nyco we will attract non-members, which is good(tm)
17:32:00 ralphm So, again, who's taking this on, and do what?
17:32:10 Flow ralphm: I already volunteered
17:32:16 SamWhited I've been using it for the past few weeks since this came up; I resubscribed to the rust-users list (which I unsubscribed from before a few weeks after they moved to Discourse) to see if things had changed. I turned on mailing list mode, and used it from my client. It was not a plesant experience.
17:32:48 nyco let's just start to install it for IoT SIG
17:32:50 MattJ SamWhited, concrete issues would be helpful to know (but not necessarily right here right now)
17:33:16 arc I'm -1 on implementing this. I don't think a strong enough argument has been made for its need, and it could add a signifigant future burden to migration in the future
17:33:23 nyco the current experience is less than pleasant
17:33:27 nyco stuck in the past
17:33:45 nyco we need that wave of modernism
17:33:52 nyco well contemporarism
17:34:14 SamWhited I think I outlined them on the list last time, but if this discussion starts up I'll go through and write out the individual pain points again.
17:34:18 ralphm I'm -1 on implementing this for an existing group, and specifically for IoT
17:34:30 nyco they want it
17:34:43 ralphm They also wanted Skype for Business
17:34:57 MattJ Let's (someone?) set up a new venue for starters, that's an actual first step
17:35:08 nyco so you're saying what they want is irrelevant?
17:35:19 arc nyco: I don't disagree with you that this would be good, the arguments against Discourse are on the merits of Discourse itself, not against innovative solutions
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17:35:29 ralphm nyco: no, I'm saying that we as an organisation are responsible for it working properly
17:35:35 MattJ Then after it's up, we can discuss moving venues to it at a later date
17:35:40 SamWhited Not irrelevant, but also not the top concern; they may want it, but the rest of the XSF has to read this stuff too, and having archives will be important later. There are just more considerations than "they want it and it's shiny"
17:35:42 ralphm and I think IoT has other, bigger issues
17:35:46 arc nyco: I am not joining the IoT SIG exactly because of their choices of non-XMPP mediums for discussion.
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17:36:04 Flow arc: We use Jitsi Meet since months
17:36:34 MattJ I have no idea what work is currently being done in the IoT SIG, nor how to find out
17:36:41 MattJ I didn't know it was still active
17:36:49 arc exactly, MattJ
17:37:04 nyco Discourse will make that visible... ;-)
17:37:13 MattJ Mmmmhm
17:37:27 Flow The visibility of Mailman2 mailing lists
17:37:37 Zash Can you all pretend that I asked "Why?" to every statement in here?
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17:37:55 Flow I'm sure you can easily follow what happened in iot@ by reading the mailman2 archive
17:38:01 Flow , not.
17:38:16 SamWhited Why would Discourse make that any easier to follow?
17:38:17 ralphm nyco: it wouldn't make it more visible. The last message before today was January 8
17:38:31 nyco ralphm, yes, it would, that's one of the points
17:38:40 ralphm https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/iot/
17:38:41 Flow SamWhited: No subpages per months, as starter.
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17:39:09 ralphm I can follow my e-mail client archives just fine, and I agree with MattJ
17:39:11 MattJ Didn't the IETF have a nicer browser for mailman archives, if this is the issue?
17:39:18 SamWhited Oh, I see, you're assuming the web interface. Yah, that's pretty bad, however, Discourse's non-web interface is pretty bad, so we're just trading one bad interface for another.
17:39:23 Flow MattJ: That's one of the issues
17:39:24 MattJ i.e. I'm sure existing work has been done in this area
17:39:24 nyco ralphm, so can you with Discourse
17:40:05 ralphm nyco: my point is that I don't believe non-movement in IoT is going to be solved by new technology for discussion
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17:40:44 nyco ralphm, true, but non-movement on our discussion means are killing
17:40:45 Flow ralphm: As Guus what he thought about moving Openfire to github years ago. And read what he now writes in the ignite realtime blog
17:40:57 Ge0rG Can't we just ask politely to add the list of affected xeps into the subject when posting to our lists?
17:41:03 Zash There are prettier web frontends to mailing lists around, like Nabble, http://lua.2524044.n2.nabble.com/
17:41:05 Zash So it's doable
17:41:10 SamWhited That's different; GitHub is a central community with network effect. A Discourse instance isn't.
17:41:10 arc I think the correct way forward on this is to have a discussion session for future-comms where multiple solutions can be discussed. Not simply a "I think we should move to X solution".
17:41:34 nyco Zash, still ugly and old style, frightening
17:41:53 ralphm arc: form?
17:42:02 nyco SamWhited, to achieve network effect thanks to its value, then do lower the barrier of entry
17:42:18 SamWhited nyco: However, for many it reduces value
17:42:19 arc mailing list or a MUC chat
17:42:27 Flow No, correct way to move forward is to do something. But within the XSF you will always find someone who is opposing that is why nothing happens ever.
17:42:33 nyco SamWhited, I'm saying network value, Metcalfe's Law
17:42:54 nyco Flow, agree, non-action hurts so badly
17:43:01 Flow It was similar with the new xmpp.org homepage
17:43:05 nyco don't give me the problem of resources
17:43:18 Flow Simon also got yelled at for trying to move forward
17:43:37 nyco the non-members, the external communities than we need so badly, will welcome that move
17:43:43 ralphm Flow: ok, if you can set up Discourse in such a way that we *also* keep having archives in Mailman as we have now, you have my blessing.
17:43:49 ralphm Is that possible?
17:44:01 arc I'm ok with that, too.
17:44:12 nyco why not disrupt?
17:44:24 nyco are you doing nothing, to keep the comfort of a few?
17:44:35 Flow ralphm: My idea was roughly to start with a test setup, and then switch one ML after another ot discourse and then eventually make mailman2 read-only.
17:44:41 dwd nyco, You know that disruption isn't a means to an end?
17:44:54 nyco dwd, ;-)
17:44:54 ralphm Flow: ok, but can you run in hybrid mode?
17:45:05 arc Flow: enough concerns have been raised to that, its not going to happen
17:45:12 Flow We can always try to find someone to migrate the old posts to discourse if we want
17:45:30 Flow arc: Concerns like?
17:45:31 nyco arc, enough concerns have been raised to stay that way
17:45:33 arc this isn't one person objecting. several people have concerns over the proposal
17:45:39 Flow ralphm: hybrid mode?
17:45:53 nyco arc, several people are all for it
17:46:14 nyco if we want actual numbers, we can call for a survey
17:46:36 arc something as fundamental as our communication medium affects everyone. for that, there should be rough consensus to change.
17:46:46 SamWhited This isn't about numbers or a vote, it's about the people who are for it assuming that the burden of proof to show that this is a good idea is on everyone else and not addressing the valid concerns brought up by others on the list.
17:46:46 Flow yeah, a members vote would be great thing to get a feeling what the XSF members think
17:47:09 SamWhited (although I'm not against gathering numbers or data, of course, why not? Sounds nice.)
17:47:12 nyco arc, the state of our current infra is affecting everyone, including the ones who don't join, because...
17:47:13 Flow SamWhited: I think I've addressed most, if not all, concerns raised on the ML thread
17:47:38 dwd Flow, I think running up a discourse instance with a real - but not critical - workload would be a sensible step.
17:47:55 dwd Flow, We could also then try other options (Movim, maybe?).
17:48:02 ralphm Flow: what I said before: if you can run it such that messages go to both Discourse and Mailman's archive, then please go ahead
17:48:09 ralphm Same with other platforms
17:48:13 nyco dwd, why Movim?
17:48:21 dwd nyco, Why not?
17:48:29 ralphm I want to stop this discussion as part of this meeting now.
17:48:33 nyco dwd, because mailing list?
17:48:43 nyco ok
17:48:48 arc Flow: If I'm not mistaken, what you want is a more modern communications medium. Your chosen solution to that is Discourse. But other solutions could meet your needs. That is why we should discuss this in a new-comms meeting
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17:49:15 nyco arc, I have not seen any equivalent, please enlighten us
17:49:23 ralphm please stop
17:49:26 arc ralphm is right, we're way over time.
17:49:27 Flow ralphm: Well I suppose you could do that with the help of your MTA. But I'm not sure if it's a good idea. What would be the advantage?
17:50:15 nyco so, we end the meeting? or address the last agenda item?
17:50:17 ralphm Flow: I want to either have a setup that doesn't involve current workgroups so we can test, evaluate, *or* something that doesn't affect the current infra
17:50:33 ralphm (so that Discourse would just be an alternative interface)
17:51:04 nyco I propose we put an end to that meeting
17:51:14 MattJ Seconded
17:51:17 ralphm nyco: I'm still at the office with a 2 hour commute ahead. I'm going to end this meeting
17:51:18 nyco the neverending meeting may have a one-week pause
17:51:41 ralphm I'm happy for people to keep discussing this afterwards
17:51:44 nyco ok then thanks all! it was a great discussion!
17:51:48 ralphm 4. Date of next
17:51:49 ralphm +1W
17:51:51 nyco +1
17:51:52 ralphm 5. Close
17:51:58 ralphm bangs gavel
17:52:00 ralphm Thanks all!
17:52:04 MattJ Thanks
17:52:06 nyco thx, see yah
17:52:08 arc Thanks ralph
17:52:16 Martin Thanks ralphm,
17:52:29 SamWhited Flow: Yah, sorry, went back and looked, I never did send my concerns about it, so obviously you didn't reply to them :) will do that next time this comes up on the mailing list or whenever arc's comms meeting happens.
17:52:31 ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
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17:53:36 Flow It's interesting how our experience divergates. Discourse has major traction within the open-source forum software. I find it very enjoyable on mobile and on my workstation, and I really like that I can use it just like mailman
17:53:45 ralphm Flow: please don't feel discouraged. I am really curious about new things, but worried about inertia and continuity.
17:54:00 Zash MattJ: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/
17:54:14 MattJ Zash, I know. Source doesn't appear to be available?
17:54:18 MattJ Can't find it
17:54:28 SamWhited I'm pretty sure the disagreement is going to be starkly divided down the line of how it's used: If you use the web/mobile apps, it's very nice. If you use it as a mailing list, it's terrible.
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17:55:00 Flow Well I already decreased my investment in XSF stuff, because it is nearly impossible to change something. Discourse on the other hand is something that I really think the XSF needs most right now. So it's the only thing I currently pursue
17:55:47 Flow SamWhited: Did they run a version which included https://github.com/discourse/discourse/commit/74b6fe8739d86dc2284707e8507ac732420a1b8c ?
17:55:51 SamWhited I still don't understand what benefit it gives us that a search box and a slightly nicer interface wouldn't
17:55:59 Zash MattJ: https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/browser/ maaybe?
17:56:01 Flow It's not only the search box
17:56:19 Flow Just hat you can tag threads with the xep numbers is a huge win IMHO
17:56:20 SamWhited Flow: That was one of the changes between last time and this time when I tried it, they did, and it was *much* better. But still a pretty terrible experience.
17:56:52 Flow Looking forward to your elaboration what made it so terrible on members@ thread
17:57:00 SamWhited (or at least, I assume that was one of the changes; that would explain a lot of the improvements around replying)
17:57:10 MattJ Zash, well done
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17:58:18 Flow Our Mailing List, especially standards@, is a huge pile of valuable information, yet it's not really accessible
17:58:42 SamWhited It sends a bunch of garbage HTML, doesn't use conventions in the plain text version (and leaks some form of [bbcode] or something into the plain text), it sends different "topics" from different email addresses so it's hard to write filters (though admittedly, this sounds like it could be how the rust-users and rust-internal instances were configured), off the top of my head. There were others; replies were broken somehow still, but I don't recall now, I'd have to go look.
17:58:58 MattJ Flow, Discourse won't fix that unless it can import the archives (can it?)
17:59:30 Flow Sure you can. You just probably need to write the code doing so
17:59:52 Flow But I think 1. that there are many mailman2 instances upgrading to discourse, so it's only a matter of time until someone does write that code
18:00:03 SamWhited What's wrong with this IETF thing? It looks nice and would fix the accessibility problem (assuming we can get the source from them, which I'm sure we could)
18:00:06 arc Flow: again, I think decoupling the specific solution you've chosen to champion from the needs to be addresed is a good first step
18:00:14 Flow and 2. we can always do the import later
18:00:14 SamWhited What arc said
18:00:38 Flow yeah, i'm already sold on discourse for various reasons
18:00:47 Flow so I don't need to decouple that
18:00:57 SamWhited You do if you want to convince anyone else
18:01:14 Flow true, but not everyone
18:02:19 Flow IMHO Discourse is without alternatives and the best horse to bet on
18:03:04 arc that's not a great position to bring to a discussion like this.
18:03:46 Flow why not? I try to back my claims with arguments. And I'm happy if you convince me of an different alternative
18:04:36 Zash Flow: Take this: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6778 s/IETF/XSF/ and call it a day ;)
18:05:40 arc I haven't made a decision yet. What you're feeling as push-back is against the "right now" aspect to your drive. XSF has used MUC and email forever. The board, council, and most WGs use these.
18:06:32 arc The first part of the push-back is the expediency, people have said that the case hasn't been made to why these things have to change right now.
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18:07:03 MattJ Well to be fair, if not "right now" then it'll be never, based on experience :)
18:07:17 arc "Now is better than never, although never is often better than *right* now"
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18:08:49 arc that comes from the python-dev list. very (very) often people comes through saying that X or Y or Z is mission critical, that Python is driving away potential new users because it doesn't have a feature, or a change to the C-API is absolutely necessary or they couldn't use Python, etc
18:09:03 arc in almost every case decisions made "right now" are regretted.
18:09:38 SamWhited Maybe someone (don't really care who, but it probably shouldn't be someone who's completely against Discourse like me, or completely for it like Flow) should evaluate several options and report back instead of us just making it an argument about "discourse or nothing". Other options have been thrown out, but the gist of the argument has mostly been about moving to discourse, not about improving in general.
18:10:27 arc MattJ is right, we need to act on it or it'll be forgotten. So Flow and nyco have ruffled feathers, people are activated, lets sit down like engineers and sort out what we want to do
18:12:08 arc I have questions as to MIX - in 2 years when we're all using MIX instead of MUC, will it be possible to merge our chat conversations with mailing list conversations in a meaningful way
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18:12:56 nyco The timeline may be of a lesser importance here
18:13:35 Zash Merging slow, long form communications with quick, short form comms is probably not very easy in non-technical ways.
18:16:02 arc im thinking more in terms of archives
18:17:43 Zash Ha
18:17:48 Zash https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/wiki/ProjectSetup#CheckingouttheSourceCode
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18:20:00 arc Zash: what is this?
18:20:35 MattJ Modern
18:21:08 Zash arc: I don't know. Unless I've gotten lost, it may be the source code to https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/
18:21:40 MattJ I think this is just the archive stuff: https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/browser/mailarch/trunk
18:21:51 SamWhited (if we can find the source, we should try it; this is very nice)
18:22:27 arc its an archive front-end to mailman?
18:22:30 SamWhited Although if you want to post from a web interface, which might be one of the discours peoples desires, it's hard to tell, it won't help
18:22:32 MattJ RabbitMQ dependency... doh
18:22:45 arc lol
18:23:11 arc what is it using rabbitmq for?
18:24:02 MattJ They seem to have some independent processes, maybe for syncing with the mailman archive and indexing
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18:25:06 arc holy crap. its march 1st. I can code again.
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18:28:12 MattJ Go slow, maybe stick with just Lua for a while :)
18:28:41 arc i have a month of ideas for libexi
18:29:04 arc you should see the pages of rubics cube algorithms ive written out
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18:33:00 arc but the month off was good i think. my vocabulary has returned, i should see the doctor again before i start again though
18:33:13 arc get a new baseline to see what the month break resulted in
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18:33:59 arc i'll just read today.
18:34:08 Zash dwd, ny?
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19:32:45 dwd Oh! That's where that went.
19:33:09 dwd So I *entirely* lost that while typing, and had no idea it was actually sent.
19:34:30 Zash heh
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22:23:24 SamWhited Zash: I think this is the mailing list stuff the IETF uses that we were looking for earlier: https://code.google.com/archive/p/ml-archive/
22:23:41 SamWhited It has some similarly named resources anyways…
22:24:04 Zash > 404. That's an error. > The project ml-archive was not found.
22:24:17 Zash SamWhited: I found some svn repo with some Python stuff in it.
22:24:29 SamWhited I just clicked through to the sources and now it says there isn't any… something weird is happening.
22:24:37 Zash Yay Google
22:24:51 Zash /lastlog recent links I've pasted here
22:25:06 SamWhited Zash: Oh, I thought the one you posted Mat or somebody said was just a database or something
22:25:14 SamWhited but yah, looks like it… nevermind, already found.
22:26:24 Zash SamWhited: I don't know for sure what I found, I've stayed too far from python web dev to know how to get whatever it was running.
22:26:33 SamWhited That's a smart plan.
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22:33:09 Zash Worked with a homebrewed Python + MongoDB web framework at my last job.
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22:42:59 Zash Email, sigh.
22:43:45 Zash The thing in XMPP where the same connection is used for incoming and outgoing traffic is pretty nice.
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23:51:12 Ge0rG Zash: like in s2s?
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23:51:52 Zash Ge0rG: {xep 288}
23:51:54 Bunneh Ge0rG: XEP-0288: Bidirectional Server-to-Server Connections (Standards Track, Draft, 2016-10-17) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0288.html
23:52:14 Zash Ge0rG: I mean the feature where I don't have to type my password 3 times to send an email.
23:53:23 Zash Or have 3 different passwords.
23:54:49 Ge0rG I haven't entered my password for email in the last three years. It's stored in a plaintext config file
23:56:06 Zash I haven't figured out how to save my password in mutt yet.
23:56:41 Zash So I get the pleasure of typing a password for IMAP, a password for GPG and a password for submission.
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