XSF Discussion - 2017-03-02

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00:03:11 Ge0rG Damn, you've got me. I type my gpg password rather often. I can look up the other things for mutt tomorrow if you are interested
00:03:33 Zash I'd rather know how to not quit mutt by accident all the time
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00:04:59 Ge0rG Unbind the Q key
00:05:25 Zash Whos brilliant idea was it to put quit and 'go back' on the same key anyways?
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00:07:59 Ge0rG Zash: it's a sensible idea in general. Except when you want to "leave" a limit filter
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03:42:55 SamWhited I have my password saved in a GPG'ed file; mutt unlocks GPG on start to get the password, which also keeps the GPG agent unlocked for 15 minutes or whatever, which works pretty well.
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04:04:52 Ge0rG Zash: for incoming mail, you can set pop_pass and imap_pass in imap, or even bind a key to a macro like "cimaps://user@domain:password@server/INBOX\n"
04:08:33 Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6778 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7017
04:09:22 Ge0rG That's so meta.
04:10:44 Zash https://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/tools/trac/wiki/Imap
04:11:46 Ge0rG Zash: you might want to tell the XSF why you are pasting all the URLs in here.
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04:16:23 Zash Ge0rG: I'm sleep-pasting URLs I think
04:17:09 Ge0rG Zash: time to get coffee, then.
04:17:28 Ge0rG I've had my first coffee of the day at 0430 local time.
04:18:42 Zash Anyways, the IETF seems to have gone through the process of figuring out better ways to access mailing list archives, so I'm trying to nudge people towards looking at the work they did.
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04:32:53 Ge0rG Zash: I'm not sure how IMAP is going to help in that regard. It sounds to me like a mix of NNTP nostalgia and nerd cred.
04:33:17 Ge0rG Zash: I'd like to have a feature where you can search the ML by affected XEPs. So a kind of tagging.
04:33:40 Ge0rG And people write the craziest things into the Subject:, so you can't just /~s XEP-0123
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04:33:59 Ge0rG if we could add XEP-xxxx tags post-factum, it would be great.
04:37:33 Zash Makes archives predating your subscription accessible.
04:38:29 Ge0rG Zash: last time I needed that (and it was to correctly reply-to to a mail), I just downloaded the .mbox. I think that the number of people who care about that, outside the IETF, is small.
04:39:10 Ge0rG Zash: and the set of people who fail to import an .mbox into their MUA, but manage to connect to an anon IMAP is probably very small.
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04:44:48 Zash The underlying point is to look at what a similar organization did about pretty much the same problem.
04:46:43 Ge0rG Okay, I can buy into that
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04:48:07 Zash They did end up with a pretty nice search thingy.
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05:02:10 Ge0rG Zash: I hope you don't mean "connect with imap, use your MUA search" approach
05:05:04 Zash Ge0rG: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/
05:06:06 Ge0rG Zash: it looks like a web MUA to me. I searched for "xmpp" and wasn't impressed with the results too much
05:06:12 Ge0rG OTOH, it looks like a MUA.
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05:12:32 Ge0rG Oh Android. If you register your app as an Intent handler, older versions use "{handler_title}" as the display text, and newer versions use "Open with {handler_title}". I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to find "Open with Add contact" a strange wording.
05:14:52 Ge0rG isn't awake either, yet. Just misread the last members@ thread as "XSF Bored Meeting Minutes".
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07:32:11 jonasw ah, that ietf-mailarchive-thing is nice
07:32:22 jonasw seen it a couple of times
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08:09:53 jonasw I’m starting the writeup of the XEP-115 (Entity Capabilities) replacement. I have a few questions: 1. I would like to acknowledge waqas work and the work of the authors of XEP-115. How do I do that appropriately? The XEP-Template doesn’t have an acknowledgements section, but seeing that XEP-115 (and others) have one, I assume that’s an appropriate way to do it. Correct? 2. In the examples I will need a namespace. Where will I source it from? Should I use a namespace under my own control and the editor will choose a different one when the XEP is accepted as experimental?
08:10:36 Kev Is this a replacement of 115, or an update to 115?
08:11:52 daniel jonasw: there is no formal way for acknowledgements. Most authors just dedicate an entire section to it
08:12:42 jonasw Kev: replacement, you can probably work your way from http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2017-02-28/#19:49:01 upwards to see the discussion around that.
08:13:43 Kev Just re-using 115 seems appropriate to me, you're not in need of drastically changing the protocol, are you?
08:15:04 Kev (I note that other things like pubsub have dependencies on 115, so if you write a whole new XEP you're looking at patching a *lot* of XEPs to update those dependencies)
08:16:21 daniel That's probably true
08:16:42 jonasw interesting point, noone seems to have thought about that the other day
08:17:00 jonasw a namespace bump for 115 would be less intrusive probably
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08:17:52 Kev A namespace bump, if needed, or maybe a backwards-compatible update (if possible) seem reasonable to me. But keep in mind it's not coffee-o'clock yet, and I don't even drink coffee.
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08:18:32 jonasw backwards-compatible won’t happen. the algorithm (and I’m not talking about sha1 or something) is broken and in need of fixing for eight years.
08:18:59 Kev I'm not utterly convinced that means it can't happen (forwards-compatible can't happen, certainly), but I'm not convinced it can, either.
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08:19:59 jonasw i should probably announce coffee-o-clock now.
08:21:48 jonasw in my opinion, xep 60 doesn’t have a dependency on 115, but on 30. it’s just worded badly.
08:22:44 jonasw or rather, "in my reading" than "in my opinion"
08:24:22 jonasw from the amount new work I’m doing for it, an update to 115 feels more appropriate than a new xep, too
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08:29:47 Flow Kev, Steve Kille: Would MIX be interested in an atomic CAS for PubSub. For example to race-free replace the subject/topic/... of a node. I'm considering writing a CAS add-on XEP for PubSub.
08:30:21 jonasw what is CAS?
08:30:25 Flow always wonders why there is no CAS for PubSub
08:30:33 jonasw (I only know Computer Algebra System, which I assume you don’t mean)
08:30:39 Flow jonasw: compare-and-swap
08:30:42 jonasw ah!
08:30:45 jonasw makes sense.
08:30:54 jonasw officially announces coffee-o-clock!
08:31:14 jonasw (or rather, tea-o-clock)
08:31:54 Ge0rG had two cups of coffee yet. Time to get a new one.
08:32:17 jonasw Flow: I feel that CAS will be hard to implement server-side. when do two XML subtrees compare equal?
08:32:28 Flow jonasw: by node id
08:32:34 Flow err item id
08:32:38 Tobias CAS?
08:32:39 jonasw okay
08:32:44 Tobias ah..nvm
08:33:24 jonasw Flow: CAS would be useful for data storage in PEP nodes, too
08:33:40 Flow jonasw: It would be useful everywhere where PubSub/PEP is used
08:33:51 jonasw mostly everywhere :)
08:33:54 jonasw but yes.
08:34:15 Flow and where you want to avoid accidentially deleting existing data because of a race condition
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08:37:00 jonasw there are usecases where you add data instead of replacing by item id :)
08:37:31 Tobias I wonder why 115 didn't just use Canonical XML standard for c14n of disco to later hash it https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-c14n11-20080502/
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08:38:19 jonasw Tobias: I was wondering about that, too, but I think canonical XML is strict with the relative ordering of elements
08:40:39 jonasw also I‘m not sure how many xml libs support c14n; considering that there are *still* some in use which don’t do namespaces properly
08:40:56 Tobias could be, yeah
08:42:42 Tobias jonasw, you're aware of this thread, right? https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-August/025011.html
08:44:26 jonasw not yet
08:44:37 Flow jonasw: which usecases are that?
08:44:58 jonasw Flow: microblogging-ish :)
08:45:24 Flow ahh right
08:45:29 Tobias jonasw, it discusses a lot issues with current XEP-0115, that should be solved in a new version
08:45:34 jonasw Tobias: thanks!
08:45:37 jonasw I’m looking into it
08:45:48 Flow jonasw: Also https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0115:_Entity_Capabilities
08:46:00 jonasw I was also planning to ask standards@ for input when I have a first draft
08:47:01 Tobias Flow, what? the IANA has two registries for hash names?
08:47:40 Flow Tobias: Yep
08:47:50 jonasw that’s a good point; the one we currently use doesn’t list sha3 for example
08:48:05 Flow I discovered that when searching for a registry for ISR-SASL2
08:48:11 Tobias Flow, einmal mit profis :P
08:48:37 Flow Tobias: Hehe, to be fair, that could happen to the XSF too :)
08:48:56 Tobias Flow, nah...we'll only ever have XEP-0300, which can be updated relatively easy
08:49:07 Tobias i think IANA stuff requires lots of time and process
08:49:20 Flow If someone knows if and whom we should tell about this within the IETF/IANA, then please do so/tell me.
08:49:46 Flow Link Mauve: BTW, SASL2?
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09:03:07 jonasw does anyone know the rationale for querying a specific disco-node containing the hash in the verification procedure xep 115?
09:05:15 Tobias jonasw, what exactly do you mean?
09:05:45 jonasw example 3 here: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0115.html#discover
09:06:06 jonasw node='http://code.google.com/p/exodus#QgayPKawpkPSDYmwT/WM94uAlu0=' instead of simply querying without node. is the idea to avoid races with changing capabilities?
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09:06:35 jonasw hm, it mentions "backwards-compatibility"
09:06:49 jonasw for avoiding races it seems helpful, why was it abandoned?
09:06:58 jonasw (even though races wouldn’t be harmful here)
09:08:02 Flow jonasw: so that you get the result of that very same hash?
09:08:10 jonasw yes
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09:08:14 Flow that approach seems sensible to me
09:08:15 Tobias could also help with server side caching i suppose
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09:08:36 jonasw Flow: I don’t like the approach though, from an implementers point of view
09:08:39 Flow e.g. Smack also responds to the last 10 hashes
09:09:01 Flow jonasw: I do like the approach from an implementers point of view
09:09:14 Tobias Flow, you keep a history what sets of features the last 10 smack releases supported?
09:09:36 Flow Tobias: No, disco features are dynamic, not tied to a smack release
09:09:50 jonasw Flow: there is no harm in a race here, because if you get a race with an unknown hash (if you know the hash, you don’t care) you simply get the updated disco#info and discard the hash.
09:09:52 Flow so the last 10 features of the connection
09:09:55 Tobias that yoo, yeah
09:10:47 Flow jonasw: true, no race here, but it helps with other things, like tobias said, server side caching, and I think it's the cleaner approach
09:10:54 jonasw how does it help with server-side caching?
09:11:08 Flow jonasw: The server can cache the response
09:11:27 jonasw hm okay
09:11:31 Flow and send it instead of forwarding the request to the queried client
09:11:35 Tobias jonasw, the server doesn't need to forward the IQ to the to-JID if it knows the from-JID just wants the disco#info for a hash
09:11:39 jonasw makes sense
09:11:43 Tobias it could reply directly
09:12:29 jonasw seems like using a different format for these nodes would be great though: '{ecaps2-namespace}#{hash-algo}.{hash-value}' or something along those lines to make it easily recognizable
09:13:26 jonasw right now a server needs to track the 'node' exported in <{caps}c/> to know whether a disco-node is a caps hash
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09:13:30 jonasw *belongs to a caps hash
09:27:10 jonasw is there an element I can use to link to another section in a XEP?
09:27:21 jonasw except <link url='#anchor'/>
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09:28:59 dwd IANA has *no* registry for hash names. IANA has several protocol registries to cover parameters for hashes, some of these are strings.
09:29:51 jonasw dwd: that makes sense and explains the odd titles for those registries.
09:30:26 Flow like "Named Information Hash Algorithm Registry"
09:30:38 dwd We co-opted one for our purposes in XEP-0300, but it's originally for PKIX, so it contains OIDs as well.
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09:31:00 dwd Maybe we should also allow urn:oid:2.16.840.1.101.3.4.2.1 for SHA-256?
09:31:09 jonasw no
09:31:12 jonasw no no no no
09:31:13 Tobias dwd, although that one hasn't been updated since 2000something
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09:31:20 jonasw oids are a mess.
09:32:03 dwd jonasw, How can you say that? They're terribly convenient stable identifiers. Even if Surevine only has one OID arc (Isode has two - snazzy).
09:32:05 jonasw ugh, the names in xep-0300 are longer than some base64-encoded hash values themselves…
09:32:28 Tobias jonasw, what names?
09:32:31 jonasw dwd: as long as you don’t need to parse them semantically, it’s fine probably, like urns
09:32:37 jonasw Tobias: <var> <name>urn:xmpp:hash-function-text-names:md5</name> <desc>Support for the MD5 hashing algorithm</desc> <doc>XEP-0300</doc> </var>
09:32:53 Tobias yeah...that's so people don't used md5 :P
09:33:10 dwd jonasw, Oh, the feature names.
09:33:12 Tobias jokingly
09:33:34 jonasw well, close. >>> len(base64.b64encode(hashlib.sha256().digest()).decode("ascii")) 44 >>> len("urn:xmpp:hash-function-text-names:sha-256") 41
09:34:02 dwd jonasw, Well, that's a reason to use SHA3-512, then.
09:34:35 jonasw my python cannot into sha3
09:34:58 jonasw hm, 3.6 can’t either…
09:35:20 Tobias #sad
09:35:34 jonasw but that looks like a configuration problem; it also doesn’t have BLAKE2b512 which is available in 3.5 here
09:36:26 mathieui jonasw, 3.6 can do sha3 just fine
09:36:29 jonasw Tobias: did you mean <sad/>?
09:36:41 jonasw mathieui: yes, it appears to be a problem with my python3.6.0a3 probably sourced from debian/experimental
09:36:43 Tobias jonasw, nah..i mean the trumpish hashtag sad ;)
09:37:10 Tobias jonasw, so 3.6 doesn't have blake2 but 3.5 has?
09:37:13 jonasw Tobias: or rather xep-14 <x xmlns="jabber:x:tone">sad</x>? :>
09:37:25 jonasw Tobias: as I said: it’s most likely an issue with my local setup, the documentation says it is there:
09:37:28 jonasw https://docs.python.org/3/library/hashlib.html
09:37:47 mathieui Tobias, 3.6 has blake2 as well
09:38:03 Tobias nice
09:38:29 jonasw meh, short names for the functions in xep-0300 would be great
09:38:33 jonasw or am I just missing those?
09:38:46 dwd jonasw, The long names are only used in the disco#info, right?
09:38:51 jonasw dwd: it apperas so
09:39:04 dwd jonasw, The actual use in protocol are short names, like "md5".
09:39:26 jonasw dwd: but there doesn’t seem to be a registry or source to refer to on which short name to use for which function.
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09:39:36 Tobias jonasw, table 1 has short hash function names
09:39:50 jonasw for some, yes.
09:40:08 Tobias see the sentence before the table
09:40:11 jonasw it is lacking sha3-{224,384} for example
09:40:15 jonasw even including that sentence
09:40:35 Tobias well yeah..didn't see much sense in those intermediate values
09:41:15 jonasw fair point
09:41:27 jonasw re-using 0300 makes a lot of sense
09:41:47 Tobias the standard should probably be 256bit ones, and if you need more security, might as well go to 512 bit then
09:43:07 jonasw hm, would making new hash functions mandatory trigger a bump on the <hash/> element…?
09:43:11 jonasw that sounds like a *lot* of fallout.
09:44:52 Flow jonasw: why should it trigger a (namespace?) bump?
09:45:26 jonasw Flow: I don’t know. I’m asking.
09:47:48 Guus *couch*Flow logo*couch*
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10:52:32 jonasw Kev: out of curiousity, what software are you talking about in your mail from 09:57+01:00?
10:53:27 Tobias i just assumed that mail was some weird welsh humor :)
10:56:17 dwd jonasw, I suspect it's mailman...
10:56:46 Guus as we're all here: Does any more need to be discussed regarding https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/269 ?
10:56:54 Guus or rather: my merging of it?
10:56:54 Tobias dwd, a new version of mailmain you mean?
10:57:10 Tobias or the current mailman?
10:57:25 dwd Tobias, No, I think it's just whatever we're using now. I suspect there might - might - be sarcasm at play here.
10:57:50 jonasw Guus: FWIW, github has a review feature, and it may make sense to have one or two eyes confirm that they took a close look on the changes, possibly leaving comments.
10:58:04 Tobias dwd, never seen him use that before though
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10:58:22 dwd Tobias, No, it's unusual in those who are cursed by not being English.
10:58:58 Tobias dwd, you misspelled 'blessed' there
10:59:19 jonasw I had to change my editors dictionary to en_US (from en_GB) to write XEPs :<
10:59:35 dwd What? Why?
10:59:45 jonasw because XEP-0134 (or -0001?) says so.
11:00:00 dwd Sounds like a candidate for a PR, then. :-)
11:00:07 jonasw https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#nt-idp1712848
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11:01:49 Guus jonasw: I don't disagree, but as far as I know, that feature is not used by XSF. We could, sure. I don't feel that there's a need for it here (the consequences of missing something in a PR review are very unlikely to be catastrophic for our website, and I prefer a continuous release cycle), but I accept that others think differently.
11:02:24 jonasw Guus: it’s really low-entrance-barrier though (if you’re a github user), and I don’t mean that it should be *mandatory*.
11:03:09 Guus jonasw: I'm using it for other projects. Not knowing when to use it appears to be my problem. :) I thought your PR was fine.
11:03:56 jonasw have you checked I didn’t slip in a try: shutil.rmtree("/") except: pass in? :)
11:03:56 Guus I am assuming that you thought so, because you PR'ed it in the first place.
11:04:20 jonasw I’m new in the XSF, my word shouldn’t count a thing when I add code to servers.
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11:05:34 Guus Oh, you could have slipped in things. I recognized your name, I glanced at the code, I ran it locally, it had the desired effect and did not delete my root partition. That combined made merging the PR an acceptible risk for me.
11:05:47 jonasw :-)
11:07:12 jonasw I’m just saying that I completely understand the point of people asking for thorough reviews. I would do the same if it was my infrastructure.
11:07:46 Guus Who am I to object to thorough reviews?
11:08:21 Guus I think mine was thorough enough by my standards, but I am fully aware that others have different standards.
11:08:31 Kev I think there's a significant difference between 'updating text on the website', which I'm fine with people generally having access to do. And "running code on our servers", for which most people don't have rights.
11:08:47 Tobias Guus, i agree though that i should probably have left a note in the PR that I was planning to review it soonish
11:09:14 Kev Running code that people thought was fine, but wasn't sensibly vetted caused us to not take part in GSoC last year, and huge amounts of wasted effort for me in the process, not to mention the downtime of the server so the XSF couldn't fulfil its primary purpose for a day.
11:09:31 dwd FWIW, the pelicanconf.py file (the only one, as I understand it, that is executed on the server) looks perfectly safe to me and adequately simple.
11:10:05 dwd It also looks clearly bounded, in as much as I can solve the halting problem in my head.
11:10:23 Tobias dwd, as far as I know https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/buildCompleteWebsite.sh is run to build the whole website on the server
11:10:32 Kev I think the more crises someone has been through with production servers, the less blazé they get about deployment :)
11:10:36 Tobias because pelican has very limited capabilities
11:11:09 Kev Anyway, I don't object to the PR based on the description, I just don't want any code deployed on XSF servers that hasn't been reviewed by iteam.
11:11:09 jonasw Tobias: it can do anything python can if you put it in the pelicanconf :>
11:11:12 Guus Kev: I've been a production herding developer, professionally, for 10+ years.
11:11:39 Kev Guus: And how many times has pushing something without checking it caused a day's worth of downtime for you? ;)
11:11:50 Tobias jonasw, probably
11:11:55 Guus including websites that have significant amount of views (millions, monthly)
11:12:15 Guus Kev: I did check.
11:12:18 dwd Kev, I think you may mean blasé, rather than blazé.
11:12:32 Kev dwd: I very much do.
11:12:52 dwd Although there's an argument for either.
11:12:54 Kev Guus: Then I have no objection. Your original comment didn't mention that you'd reviewed the code, just run it locally.
11:13:33 dwd jonasw, So, not threading, then? :-)
11:13:35 Kev Well, I still have an objection in principle, because I think the server admins should get to review the code too, but I'm happy in this instance if you've reviewed the code.
11:14:53 Guus Kev: I'm pretty sure I did not review it up to your standards. I'm also not worried by that.
11:15:04 jonasw dwd: depends on the specific python implementation and the specific task. Python can very much thread in the sense that C extensions which are called from python code from different threads may in fact run in parallel. It is just pure python code which, on CPython at least, isn’t run in parallel. :)
11:15:28 dwd Kev, This is build-time code, incidentally, not runtime code. So I'd hold it to lower standards.
11:15:43 Kev jonasw: "Python can totally thread, as long as you code in C instead of Python"? :)
11:15:48 dwd jonasw, Yeah, I'm only too aware...
11:16:01 jonasw Kev: pretty much
11:16:42 Kev dwd: When it's run on the server, I'm not sure the standards need to be much lower. If it's malicious, same effect, if it manages to resource-starve and bring down the server, same effect. There are some runtime cases (resource-heavy, but not resource-starving) that don't apply, but the standard's still pretty high.
11:17:46 jonasw actually, this is why in the organisations I use pelican, the build system and the contents are separate repositories. The build system repository has strict review requirements, content lesser so.
11:18:00 jonasw (although, fun fact: pelican lets you write to arbitrary files from the content files alone :-))
11:18:10 jonasw (well, the current master branch doesn’t anymore)
11:19:24 Tobias jonasw, templates probably still can though, right?
11:19:47 jonasw not sure about that, but I don’t consider templates content.
11:19:50 Kev Anyway, my opinion isn't going to matter for long. My new games PC has just arrived, and Cath is going to kill me as soon as she gets home and sees the den.
11:20:32 Tobias heh :)
11:22:04 Guus You have time for a games PC? *envy*
11:23:39 Kev Sure. It just sits there, it doesn't need much time.
11:23:46 Kev Now playing games, that would take more time...
11:24:17 jonasw I would like to re-ask my question now that more people are active. When writing a new XEP, in the examples and specification I will need a namespace. Where will I source it from? Should I use a namespace under my own control and the editor will choose a different one when the XEP is accepted as experimental?
11:24:42 Guus which of both is what will get you killed later today?
11:25:03 Kev jonasw: It's easiest for the Editors if you use an appropriate NS from the start, although technically IIRC the Editors should pick one.
11:25:13 jonasw okay
11:25:34 Kev Stripping out your NS to replace it with an xmpp one at publication time is mostly busy-work.
11:25:47 Kev And while the other Editors are much less lazy than me, stil ... :)
11:25:50 jonasw ack
11:26:08 jonasw just wanted to make sure that I don’t overstep any boundaries by suggesting a namespace from the xmpp-urn-namespace
11:29:30 Kev jonasw: It's slightly tweaking the process, but it's the sensible thing to do, and what everyone else does.
11:30:07 Kev Guus: The mess, and that I'm not intending getting rid of my old games PC, but running both in parallel both run the risk of death-by-spouse.
11:32:16 Guus Kev: in which case, I am glad I had the chance to meet you in person at FOSDEM, before your premature death.
11:33:40 jonasw is there any precendent to form arbitrary (i.e. entity controlled) disco#info nodes from an urn:xmpp:-namespace? so for http://… namespaces it’s obvious to use # as a separator, is there any precedent what to use with urn:xmpp:-namespaces?
11:34:29 Kev I'm afraid I'm too stupid to understand the question.
11:35:29 Tobias jonasw, so you want to have dynamic namespaces, not previously defined in a XEP or registry?
11:35:41 jonasw not namespaces, but disco#info node names
11:35:52 jonasw nah, I’m too stupid to formulate it clearly. see in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0115.html#discover <query xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info' node='http://code.google.com/p/exodus#QgayPKawpkPSDYmwT/WM94uAlu0='/> the node there is composed of a URL base and a hash value.
11:36:53 jonasw I don’t see the point of using some client-provided string as a prefix so I would like to use the namespace of the XEP as prefix. what kind of separator makes sense between the prefix and the hash info? Is there a precedent for that?
11:38:13 jonasw ah yes, it appears so
11:38:22 jonasw xep 290 also uses #
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15:13:09 arc the argument that won me over on not allowing clients to dictate their resource was that of distributed hosting routing
15:14:08 Tobias you mean clustering?
15:16:00 arc sure, whatever term you want to have for a @server hosted by multiple servers. and sorry i completely misread the conversation above, so that statement was kinda out of the blue
15:17:05 Ge0rG I'm still not convinced of that clustering use case. "Google does it this way" doesn't cut it for me.
15:17:19 arc Ge0rG: we're going to need it for IoT
15:17:35 Kev Ge0rG: Well, I guess it'd be interesting if you could explain how you solved it in your clustered server, to persuade the other clustered server vendors that it's easy?
15:18:02 Ge0rG Kev: wait, let me fire up a bunch of dockers.
15:18:37 arc right now prosody can effectively handle 40k concurrent users on an average AWS instance last i ran the brute force test. in order to scale to the size that some of these IoT manufacturers want you need multiple servers, ideally geographically distributed
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15:19:22 Ge0rG arc: what about running different per-region domains?
15:19:51 arc the last sit-down I had with an IoT manufacturer they said 10m units is what they consider base level, and any solution they consider should be able to scale to ten times that
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15:20:58 Ge0rG are there any xmpp installations handling north of 1m connections? I only remember WhatsApp's we-are-awesome post in that regard.
15:21:15 Tobias really wonder if all those IoT devices need permanent connections
15:21:21 SamWhited per-region domains is changing the security model. Also, it means if I live in the US, but I travel to China, I'm still connecting to my server in the US (or whatever domain I registered on). We were talking about single domains, multiple-domains is a completely different thing.
15:21:25 Ge0rG Tobias: of course they do!
15:21:33 arc Tobias: for receiving input, yes. though they're not very active.
15:21:40 SamWhited Ge0rG: I can't give exact figures (and don't know them anyways), but I'm pretty sure we (HipChat) are.
15:21:56 SamWhited (and we also use the server-assigned-resource-part-for-routing solution, FWIW)
15:21:56 MattJ FWIW Prosody's clustering will use the resource for internal routing purposes
15:21:57 arc in one case a device wanted to send a "heartbeat" with 12 bytes of data every 6 seconds (1/10th of a minute)
15:22:14 Ge0rG arc: that's a very intensive use case
15:22:32 arc Ge0rG: yes, and each device having a retail price of around $15
15:22:45 arc that's the future we face and have to plan for
15:22:50 Kev I like that Arc has such a high opinion of our maths that he had to explain that 6 seconds was 1/10 of a minute :D
15:23:13 arc Kev: sorry i haven't had my tea yet lol
15:24:10 jonasw tea <3
15:24:23 Guus I for one wonder how many seconds 2/10 of a minute is.
15:24:32 arc I will readily admit that a 100m service blitzed my brain out. I mean, sure we can toss around big numbers like its nothing, but that's actually some significant engineering challenges.
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15:24:55 Kev arc: It undoubtedly is.
15:25:20 arc at that rate you need dedicated S2S routers. and questions like where are the heartbeats routing to
15:25:22 Ge0rG I could also imagine that a 100m IoT deployment has different requirements than a public chat service
15:26:15 Ge0rG (and also probably different sysop challenges, where having a resource string as a debug tag is less useful)
15:27:30 arc absolutely. from the EXI side those stanzas are extremely small. as long as the 12 bytes of data are encoded in int or float attributes within their custom schema, the whole stanza could be around 16 bytes. and since the devices will be communicating with a finite number of other devices, mostly on the same LAN..
15:28:32 arc my recommendation was embed their XMPP server in their 802.15.4 to wifi gateway module, to keep a majority of the traffic local and reduce their service end traffic as a first point. which i think is what they're doing
15:28:34 MattJ Ge0rG, client-provided debug tags aren't guaranteed to be unique, I'm really unconvinced by your argument
15:29:31 SamWhited I've also come to the conclusion that agreeing to compromise on that basis was a mistake… if you were using the resource part as a debug tag you were using a quick hack; if that's a thing we want, we need a real solution, we don't need to make a part of the JID more complicated just so someone can see sometihng in existing logs.
15:30:01 SamWhited Adding stuff to the JID that isn't related to routing is changing the purpose of JIDs, and that feels like a bad idea.
15:31:15 Ge0rG MattJ: a properly implemented client can provide sufficient uniqueness.
15:31:36 MattJ Ge0rG, you're not a server developer, clearly :)
15:31:54 SamWhited As a general rule of thumb I don't think we should ever have to rely on a "properly implemented" client.
15:31:58 MattJ Indeed
15:31:58 arc SamWhited: from the EXI side it doesn't matter. the entire JID is one string in the string table. i think having a human readable (aka designed for the UI) resource after the # makes some sense. though, that could also be done through pep
15:32:12 Ge0rG MattJ: but I know a little bit about client development
15:32:20 jonasw at this point I tend to agree with SamWhited. for debugging, there really should be something else, like an additional optional stream header which can be used for debugging, or a stream feature to attach a debug identifier to a stream or use <identity/> as soon as it’s available.
15:32:39 MattJ Ge0rG, it's a nice idea, for you, with your client. But in the real world, on a real server, we can't depend on every client being Yaxim
15:32:50 arc wouldn't this make sense to attach to PEP?
15:32:55 MattJ I totally get why you want a debug tag, and let's do that. But I think it's separate to the resource
15:33:01 SamWhited Or just some form of fingerprint the server constructs (so that the client doesn't have to do anythihng), eg. maybe it queries the client for its disco#info, and then hashes that along with the JID and any other info it can get and uses that to track sessions
15:33:05 MattJ arc, no, because PEP is per user, not per client
15:33:38 arc MattJ: couldn't the PEP .. sorry still early .. list a resource to human readable lookup?
15:33:40 jonasw SamWhited: for a single session, a server can just roll a random number.
15:33:44 Ge0rG MattJ: let me rephrase your suggestion: let's create a nice perfect future debug tag sometime in the remote future, and remove the existing and working debug tag right now.
15:33:56 SamWhited jonasw: ah, yah, I guess this is about tracking clients, not sessions. oops.
15:34:18 SamWhited The existing and working debug tag that breaks more critical parts of the system and makes everything more complicated.
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15:34:37 jonasw for clients use <identity/> as soon as its available and log it to associate the identity with the session nonce in the logs.
15:34:46 jonasw identity + bare jid probably
15:34:47 SamWhited And requires that clients do a specific thing which they may or may not actually do.
15:34:47 MattJ Ge0rG, given that you're currently the only person I've seen suggesting that the resource string can and should be used this way, I don't think we're anywhere near your ideal being reality either
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15:35:40 MattJ i.e. other clients don't use the resource this way, you do. You'll update to use the debug tag, they won't
15:35:49 SamWhited I remember at summit people complained that identity couldn't be used for this, but I don't remember why? What jonasw suggested sounds sensible, and works today.
15:35:58 jonasw I see that the resource is *currently* a nice way to track a client in debug logs; but BIND 2.0 won’t be there tomorrow. There’s plenty of time for server devs to adapt. This could easily be part of the UX considerations for sysops in BIND 2.0
15:36:06 jonasw (s/BIND/Bind/?)
15:36:43 MattJ I'd be fine (and glad) to include some kind of unique client identifier in bind2
15:36:44 Ge0rG MattJ: I don't know how many sysops of public servers are active in this MUC
15:36:49 jonasw or even include a "debug identifier" in Bind 2.0 which is never ever exposed to anything but server logs. although I think a stream header would be nicer because it allows tracking even before authentication succeeded.
15:37:03 jonasw ha, MattJ beat me to it
15:37:05 MattJ and with bind1 clients, use their provided resource as a cookie, and then use something else for the actual resource
15:37:24 Zash What is it with you and writing lots of text while I'm out on a walk?
15:37:26 MattJ (sorry, cookie == debug tag in my mind)
15:37:39 jonasw MattJ: makes sense
15:37:45 SamWhited nods
15:37:49 jonasw sounds like a very useful way forward
15:37:49 MattJ Zash, you should take your phone, to make sure you never miss a message!
15:38:09 Zash I did, for photos of all the snsow
15:38:13 Zash I did, for photos of all the snow
15:38:16 Ge0rG MattJ: I want to be able to easily grep my logs for certain things, and to get all traffic exchanged with a given client instance (including re-auth and 0198 resumption)
15:38:23 jonasw (this discussion also pins me to a chair in a waiting room where I wanted to leave 20 minutes ago, but whatever)
15:38:28 arc phone? he should have always wear Glass so this room is constantly flowing above his eyeball
15:38:42 Ge0rG MattJ: or to get all traffic exchanged with a certain client software.
15:38:54 Tobias Zash, how much ❄?
15:38:54 jonasw Ge0rG: I think you actually want structured logs
15:39:17 MattJ I want to submit pull requests to all other clients to change their default resource string to "yaximXYZ"
15:39:18 jonasw cramming all those criteria in a single string isn’t doing any good
15:39:19 Zash My position on resource selection is that the rules in xmpp-core are fine and don't need changing.
15:39:54 Zash I agree with SamWhited that something else ought to be used for this kind of tracking and debugging.
15:40:30 Zash Ge0rG: Would it satisfy you if we returned the log tag in the handshake somehow?
15:40:33 Ge0rG Zash: the rules in xmpp-core are sufficient indeed. As long as the server doesn't override what the client sends ;)
15:41:05 arc the more i think about it, the less i think about this as an issue of debugging, but more of the use case where you want your contacts to be able to specifically reach you on your laptop vs phone vs whatever
15:41:23 arc that was brought up at the summit, i dont remember by who
15:41:24 SamWhited The rules in xmpp-core would be fine, except that if you let clients "set" a thing, they're going to stop reading the RFC at that point and assume that's the JID they get. In my mind the rules should be "the server sets the resource part, it's opaque to clients, and the clients get no say in it"
15:41:24 Zash arc: That is doable via disco#info
15:41:34 jonasw Ge0rG: what about the following: 1. bind 2.0 allows for a "debug tag" 2. servers are strongly encouraged (via UX considerations in the bind 2.0 xep) to include that debug tag to every log message related to that client ?
15:42:01 Zash SamWhited: The client gets to make a suggestion, but the server decides. Similar to how extensions and stuff work in TLS.
15:42:03 SamWhited Because it's for *routing* which is strictly a server concern.
15:42:31 SamWhited Zash: Yah, I wouldn't mind that, except it seems to be a source of bugs because clients don't actually pay attention to the servers decision
15:42:43 SamWhited Or at least, that's what it sounded like at summit.
15:42:48 arc SamWhited: most client authors AFAICT don't write to the rfc, they use it as a rough guide and really write to a server
15:42:51 Ge0rG SamWhited: there is still no consensus on whether that _routing_ info should be persistent for a given client instance or not.
15:43:11 Zash arc: And that's how we get "but it works in Internet Explorer".
15:43:12 SamWhited Ge0rG: Sure, but that's orthogonal (and probably up to the server / service)
15:43:21 SamWhited arc: Indeed :(
15:43:37 Ge0rG SamWhited: actually it's related, because the client is the only one that knows its identity on a reconnect
15:43:39 jonasw there should be a way to pain to those who do that, arc
15:44:16 Zash Ge0rG: Have you thought about my suggestion of including a namespaced attribute on the stream header? That's greppable in logs, which gives you the sessions log tag, which you can then grep for.
15:44:34 arc jonasw: a network testing script which tests a client or service for compliance
15:44:54 arc starting with "fun" things like sending <stream:stream version="2.0">
15:45:09 Zash Are there any security issues with using the stream ID as tag in logging?
15:45:10 SamWhited Ge0rG: Ah, yah, fair enough, I guess you can't really separate that from the clients control.
15:45:28 arc and using custom prefixes.
15:45:35 Ge0rG Zash: I want to reduce the number of IDs, not increase it.
15:46:36 arc just basically go through the RFC for every MUST and SHOULD, write a test for that case, and MUSTs show up as red, while SHOULD appears in yellow - any client failing to (eg) accept a different resource than requested by the server would show up this way
15:46:55 arc and if you provide it, and its something client authors can find, they will almost certainly use it.
15:46:55 Ge0rG Sorry, I'm in a meeting currently, and I'm heavily sleep-deprived. Can't focus on the discussion here.
15:47:16 Zash arc: FWIW I don't think the client needs to know its own resource in that many cases.
15:47:59 arc sure but can you think of a case where a client not understanding its resource correctly would cause a fault that you could test for on the server side?
15:49:17 Zash Strip out the 'to' attribute on everything you send, see how the client reacts.
15:49:42 jonasw as a client, I don’t care about the to a server sends me
15:49:56 arc yea isnt it legal to do that?
15:50:27 Zash No 'to' attribute is supposed to be semantically equivalent to to=full JID
15:50:36 arc i mean i guess you could test an iq ping addressed to nobody, to the client by a random resource, to the client's requested resource, and to the client's given resource
15:50:43 Zash Or the bare JID in the other direction
15:52:34 arc replying to a ping that's misaddressed should at least be a warning, tho in that case it'd often be hard to say whether it was understanding its resource correctly or not
15:52:53 arc but if it only replied to its requested resource but not its given resource..
15:52:58 Zash Isn't that an error on the servers part?
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15:53:23 arc Zash: test servers must send bad data. thats the point.
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15:53:57 Zash There's been a bunch of security issues related to not validating the 'from' on certain stanzas, like roster requests and such.
15:54:32 arc the point of a test suite isnt to test whether a client behaves correctly with typical data to a properly functioning xmpp server. the point is to test whether it behaves according to the RFC, so in many cases the client would - i assume - need to close the connection and reconnect.
15:54:37 jonasw yeah, but from is not to
15:55:02 arc or send an <iq type='error'> or etc
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15:56:04 arc i mean i above proposed one of the first tests would be <stream:stream version='2.0'> to check that the client is actually parsing the stream version according to the RFC. it should reject the connection, right there
15:58:13 Zash arc: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_conformance_restricted.html may be of interest to you
16:00:48 arc Zash: i'll look at it
16:00:57 arc but does it send intentionally bad data to test?
16:01:19 arc I have a utf8 test suite I'd *love* to see how both clients and servers respond to
16:01:24 Zash Yes, sends XML things forbidden by the RFC
16:01:24 jonasw sending PIs is bad data i guess :-)
16:02:21 jonasw damn i need tobunload csi
16:02:36 jonasw *to unload
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16:02:57 arc Zash: have you tested for UTF-8? what happens when NULL is in the middle of a stanza, say in the <message><body>? or ending a <message><body> with a chr(148) followed by </body>
16:03:00 Zash arc: Have we had the conversation about IDNA versions and PRECIS and how the only reasonable thing to do is crawl down under ones desk and cry?
16:03:21 arc Zash: no but it sounds like a conversation id love to have ;-)
16:03:42 SamWhited Heh, this is true.
16:04:02 Ge0rG arc: yay! please tell me if Unicode Robot Face (🤖 U+1F916) is a legal resource character
16:04:04 SamWhited and Unicode, and UTF-8, and natural languages
16:04:30 arc Ge0rG: I don't know but i'd love to find out!
16:04:41 SamWhited I'm almost certain it is; I can go check if you really want.
16:05:02 arc i discovered that GNU Screen has some deep UTF8 issues, as does Synergy
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16:05:15 arc I started digging in and found lower level libraries were at fault
16:05:39 arc GNU Screen only handles 1 and 2 byte unicode
16:05:51 arc internally it was using UCS2
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16:06:38 Zash Like how MySQL has something called "utf8" which only supports up to 3 byte UTF-8 sequences?
16:08:03 arc heh
16:08:04 SamWhited Yup, it's valid
16:08:24 arc i think SamWhited cheated
16:08:34 Zash arc: GNU libidn and IBM ICU behave differently when given Unicode outside of Unicode 3.something or whatever was state of the art at the time. One accepts. One rejects. Much fun.
16:08:45 SamWhited https://gist.github.com/SamWhited/cc6fd0a9c0a1559c71f828f6b6c8b729#file-validjid-go
16:09:04 SamWhited That JID implementation is using a very well tested PRECIS implementation that's built with Unicode 9
16:09:21 arc Mr Miller *IS* in the DC area, we're setting up a time for coffee
16:10:13 MattJ ^5
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16:22:59 Ge0rG Now I wish I could have Robot Face as a sRVname SAN in a LE cert
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16:26:28 Zash Ge0rG: Nice things, they are unobtainable.
16:27:21 Ge0rG Zash: like Unobtainium?
16:28:21 SamWhited Oh no, Unobtanium is much more attainable than nice things.
16:28:30 Ge0rG Bummer.
16:28:43 Ge0rG BTW, why is the Board Meeting over now?
16:29:01 Zash It was the board meeting to end all board meetings
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16:30:08 Ge0rG Zash: I think it only ended three of them.
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16:50:46 arc lol
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16:51:40 arc so today's joy on the FLOSS Foundations mailing list is the announcement of the new Open Fashion Foundation, quote, "to disrupt fashion industry with lessons learned from computing industry."
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16:52:19 Zash Aaaawhat who let this override browser shortcuts?!
16:52:19 SamWhited So they're going to spend all their time adding new features to cloths and ignoring the fact that the cloths are unraveling and falling off?
16:52:38 Zash throws things at LE's discuss thing
16:52:56 arc SamWhited: lol
16:54:00 arc this is one I won't even be synical about. Its just a pure bundle of joy that someone out there has made FOSS licensed fashion a personal mission in their life
16:54:22 SamWhited ahem, yes, sorry about that. I mean, "good for them" :)
16:54:54 arc can you imagine a fashion show hosted by this organization?
16:55:58 Zash The latest in beard and ribs fashion?
16:57:19 arc "This piece by Manuel Debrough, available under the Apache 2.0 license from github..."
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16:58:02 arc Zash: oh no, dollars to donuts I'm willing to bet a fabulous gay man is behind this.
16:58:29 SamWhited heh, I have a bit of a guilty pleasure in that I really enjoy fashion stuff (even though I know nothing about it, which is probably obvious if you've ever seen the way I dress), so that actually sounds pretty nifty
16:58:41 SamWhited But I do enjoy seeing the things people come up with
16:58:56 arc actually I can see them trying to QueerEye geek's tshirt and jeans
16:59:13 SamWhited aww yeah, I'm gonna be fashionable for once
17:00:06 arc the rugby club I started 4 years ago in DC just raised over $2500 in one night hosting a drag show.
17:01:18 arc https://goo.gl/photos/XEKE5peqYG2b4gfb7
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17:03:37 arc when I mentioned this on IRC, one of my friends with the Gnome foundation immediately said they needed to run a drag show, and had people volunteering. The thought of that alone is priceless.
17:04:11 arc so yea I can see a geek fashion show, especially in san francisco
17:04:32 arc they could raise thousands for charity too
17:05:42 dwd I can see "designer-stained t-shirts" and "artful crumpling" becoming a thing.
17:06:27 SamWhited Hah, indeed. I'm going to start a new line: "morning coffee spill"
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17:07:37 dwd "Bob wears jeans (model's own) and a t-shirt (free from some conference)"
17:07:58 arc dwd: have you ever watched queer eye?
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17:10:39 dwd arc, Can't say I have.
17:11:02 moparisthebest gah I hate that, I have jeans with holes worn in them by myself by working before that was in fashion, and now I don't want to wear them for fear of people thinking I'm trying to be fashionable...
17:11:54 arc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5dZ4QG7dW0 most of the men they makeover are shaggy geeks. they turn them metro. in almost every case the man starts with tshirt and jeans, and they end up posh with a new haircut, product, etc - also with their house/office made over.
17:11:57 SamWhited hipster moparisthebest was into jeans and t-shirt's before they got all popular
17:12:15 moparisthebest :(
17:12:22 dwd moparisthebest, You're way older than I thought, then. I recall holes in jeans being fashionable, and that was when my mum bought me clothes.
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17:12:54 moparisthebest I seriously still wear the same jeans and t-shirts I wore when I was 18 and stuff, my wife tries to throw them away all the time lol
17:13:01 dwd arc, See, I don't need that. I *can* dress up. I just usually *don't*.
17:13:11 moparisthebest dwd, oh maybe it went out of style and back in, or I just didn't know about it, I'm 31 :P
17:13:15 arc https://youtu.be/g5dZ4QG7dW0?t=11m25s is where they bring this one guy to buy fashonable denim to replace his "jeans"
17:14:38 arc dwd: nor I. but its a great visual
17:15:26 arc this is more like my husband and I: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbf_nFtA8YQ
17:16:05 dwd moparisthebest, Yeah, I'll be 43 soon, and I suspect my mother was telling me ripped jeans should just be replaced at about the time you were born, then...
17:19:38 arc its funny, i have a tshirt and jeans policy - and have gotten a lot more traction with it than otherwise.
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17:20:00 arc also the beard. the bigger the beard, the more they think you know. John "Maddog" Hall taught me that trick
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17:46:46 jonasw that’s some unexpected backlog
17:48:22 Ge0rG so much text, so laggy connection.
17:48:48 jonasw Ge0rG: barely worth it if you’re not into fashion. most likely not worth it on your 30% loss link there.
17:49:34 Ge0rG the link already feels like 20%. Looks like it's improving. I even have sub-second latency.
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17:51:34 Ge0rG Maybe I should fire up Gajim to see how it behaves with MSN and high-latency links.
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18:27:17 arc heh
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18:27:34 arc If I have the joy of reading about Open Fashion Foundation today so should all of you ;-)
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18:30:23 jonasw is there a section in a usual XEP where I can put notes on alternative variants I considered but eventually decided against? much like PEPs have, for example here: <https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0448/#variations>? otherwise I might add a Design Considerations section…
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18:31:27 Ge0rG jonasw: +1 for Design Considerations
18:31:32 moparisthebest that sounds right to me
18:32:22 Zash # requirements it needs to do the thing # discussion we could do something, but that has these problems we colud do something else, which seems pretty good, so the rest of the spec is about this
18:32:31 Ge0rG I think that every XEP should contain its rationale.
18:32:35 Zash +1
18:32:38 jonasw yESSSSss
18:33:34 jonasw Zash: hm, PEPs do it differently: requirements, then spec, then other variants. I actually like that, because when I implement something, I don’t need to read the other variants. If I want to know why the other variants were rejected, I can skip to that section. thoughts?
18:34:22 Zash No it should start with the schema! :)
18:34:44 jonasw ah, I wish one could rely on schemas in XEPs.
18:34:59 moparisthebest my ideal documentation would just start with already written code :)
18:35:09 jonasw moparisthebest: no.
18:35:17 moparisthebest in the language I'm using
18:35:25 moparisthebest and it has to magically know that beforehand
18:35:31 moparisthebest yea I'm joking sorry :)
18:35:36 jonasw :-)
18:35:45 moparisthebest I agree with you about that PEP order jonasw
18:35:54 Zash Language Specification: What the code does is correct. EOF
18:36:09 moparisthebest right :)
18:36:10 jonasw :D
18:36:29 moparisthebest if you think you found a bug you are mistaken, it's actually a feature
18:36:41 jonasw #php
18:37:18 moparisthebest and it's apparantly worked for xep115 for 10 years right?
18:37:32 Zash Is fine, don't worry
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18:38:04 moparisthebest ... why did I automatically read what Zash just said with a russian accent?
18:38:31 jonasw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp8hvyjZWHs (Trust me, i’m an engineer !)
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18:41:03 Ge0rG Hm. I need to youtube-dl that so I can watch it. ETA: 12:51
18:41:33 jonasw don’t.
18:41:39 moparisthebest some of those things are actually awesome
18:41:46 moparisthebest the backhoe rowing the boat for example
18:42:59 Ge0rG jonasw: alternatively, you could stream it to the MUC with libcaca and LMC.
18:43:15 jonasw Ge0rG: my client cannot into LMC
18:43:53 Ge0rG I'm sure mathieui would be glad to provide a video streaming plugin for poezio :D
18:44:51 jonasw Tobias: you mentioned earlier that a server could cache xep115 responses for those specific disco#info nodes.
18:44:58 jonasw I wonder whether that’s a great idea after all.
18:45:18 jonasw I was wondering whether it has any privacy implications for a client.
18:45:29 jonasw (on behalf of whom the server is answering)
18:46:09 Zash jonasw: You may be able to guess that the server has seen a disco#info before through timing
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18:46:40 jonasw Zash: well, yes, but lets assume that a server has seen that disco isn’t revealing anything, for example because all servers use the capsdb.
18:47:59 jonasw I wonder whether it would be okay for a server to reply on behalf of a client if the client is not actually online. While that would prevent any unintended presence leaks if the server answers for a resource which would by itself not have answered to that specific asker, it has the downside that stuff may be confused if a server answers a request for a resource which isn’t even online.
18:48:50 Tobias jonasw, as long as you have not an extremely user specific client feature set, that shouldn't be a an issue
18:49:27 SamWhited I don't think it's a problem because it's generally up to the server to enforce permissions / decide who can query what anyways, not the client.
18:49:44 SamWhited So your server SHOULD be taking precautions to prevent presence from leaking anyhow
18:49:50 SamWhited (or whatever is being queried)
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19:08:25 jonasw what are the criteria for an xsd to appear here? <https://xmpp.org/schemas/>
19:08:34 Ge0rG NoooOooOOOooo! [download] 87.6% of 3.35MiB at 45.18KiB/s ETA 00:09ERROR: unable to download video data: [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer
19:08:41 jonasw Ge0rG: youtube-dl can resume :)
19:08:45 MattJ Ge0rG, it supports resum...
19:08:47 MattJ :)
19:09:02 MattJ I should know. Are you using my wifi by any chance? :)
19:09:19 Zash MattJ: You have wifi?!
19:09:40 MattJ Too many complaints from "smart"phone users in the house to resist any longer
19:09:50 Ge0rG MattJ: free WiFi on a rowded train, moving at 200km/h
19:09:58 Ge0rG MattJ: free WiFi on a crowded train, moving at 200km/h
19:13:12 moparisthebest kind of amazing that works at all
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19:22:43 arc jonasw: https://youtu.be/rp8hvyjZWHs?t=2m37s has got to be the best hack I've seen in a long time
19:23:31 jonasw :D
19:24:17 moparisthebest arc, the rowing backhoe? yea that impressed me the most
19:24:35 arc yea..
19:25:01 moparisthebest there is no arguing with that one, boat motor breaks, have a backhoe on board, it's ingenious
19:25:52 arc i thought my use of a toilet fill valve in a bucket for plant watering was good
19:25:53 Zash I don't usually have a backhoe on board
19:26:04 arc this is a whole new level
19:26:16 dwd Zash, So what do you do if your motor breaks?
19:26:48 moparisthebest probably something boring like an oar
19:27:47 Zash I guess I would have to convert it into a putt putt boat
19:28:37 Zash I would also have to get a boat and a motor...
19:28:51 arc what if you had a car onboard and could get it up on jacks
19:29:26 moparisthebest change out the wheels for paddles like an old river boat?
19:29:28 dwd arc, If he doesn't even have a boat he's got worse problems.
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19:32:31 SamWhited arc: Like this (sort of)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyBl9vf8Td0
19:32:49 arc thats true. Zash how will you hack up a boat to start with?
19:34:04 Zash But why would I have a boat? Not really a water person.
19:34:52 Zash I'd rather have cabin in the woods and some potatoes. Backhoe would come in handy then.
19:35:14 arc Oh, I *really* doubt that you want to have cabin in the woods
19:37:00 arc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsIilFNNmkY
19:37:03 ThurahT true, there are nicer things than a portal to a demi-god-demon
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19:40:25 Zash Can't be worse than the mosquitoes
19:41:02 arc i'll take mosquitos over the horrific monsters they send to kill you
19:41:17 arc and what rises if EVERYONE fails
19:41:37 moparisthebest I think I'd prefer the things I could kill with guns
19:42:14 arc I think the scene of the japanese school children circling around and dispelling the demon is the best
19:44:21 arc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIE8Fq4Zm1E
19:45:10 arc "The spirit of the demon will now live in the happy frog!" ... "How hard is it to kill a group of 9 year olds?"
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19:45:18 moparisthebest this has been an odd day in the xsf, went from talking about fashion, to boats rowed by backhoes, to demons in cabins in the woods
19:45:32 arc blame me.
19:45:37 moparisthebest with some xmpp sprinkled in :)
19:45:59 arc yea there's XMPP involved, that's all that matters. That means we can charge lunch to the corporate card right?
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19:47:21 Ge0rG blames arc.
19:47:24 arc after all the work I did I realized this morning that the hash function isnt likely all that useful for embedded systems, and in 95%+ of the cases won't even get included in the binary
19:47:40 arc embedded xmpp is unlikely to include text xml.
19:47:47 Ge0rG It ain't no fun with the lags.
19:48:42 arc the hash function is used pretty much, if not entirely exclusively for hashing text strings in order to find a cooresponding match on the string table
19:49:11 arc anyone else have a problem that you dig too deep into a problem that you lose sight of the big picture?
19:49:28 SamWhited oh yes… frequently.
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19:51:37 Ge0rG When I dig too deep into a problem I always encounter sub problems to which there is no documented solution on the Internets, but often many people having the same issue.
19:51:55 MattJ Don't get me started, today has been one of those
19:51:56 arc i hate that.
19:52:25 Zash I still got some glibc in my eye from yesterday.
19:52:26 arc or you dig deep enough that you realize its a problem caused by the language you're using that can't be fixed, just.. worked around
19:52:31 MattJ e.g. the moment when I realised (after putting log statements all over the place) that the testing tool I was using was broken, and connecting to the wrong server
19:52:42 MattJ (in production)
19:52:55 Zash Why isn't getrandom() in glibc until like the latest bleeding edge version nobody has?
19:53:02 MattJ and the rabbit hole just goes deeper
19:53:39 MattJ and now I'm just looking for some utility that will read lines from stdin and send them somewhere as UDP packets
19:54:00 MattJ and trying to pretend I don't need to write my own
19:54:09 Zash netcat
19:54:28 MattJ netcat failed on the "line" part
19:54:29 arc my first "in office" job had two charming things; 1) a ban on coffee in the office (only green tea, because of management philosophy hogwash), and 2) "Eat Me" cookies in a sealed container in the break room for when you get trapped too deep in a rabbit hole
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19:56:28 arc it took me far too long to realize the reference
19:56:42 Zash hah
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19:58:46 arc a also found that for every schema i could think of, bitpacked EXI is better, faster, and smaller binary than compressed EXI
19:59:24 arc i didnt expect that.
19:59:32 moparisthebest that's just a type of compression though isn't it?
19:59:47 Zash What's compressed EXI?
19:59:48 moparisthebest like it'd probably be equally susceptible to CRIME / BREACH type attacks?
19:59:49 arc I guess you could call bitpacking a form ofcompression..
20:00:06 arc Zash: so there's 4 modes for EXI; bitpacked, simple byte-aligned, pre-compression, and compression.
20:00:34 arc byte-aligned is essentially the same as bitpacked but always padded to byte alignment, obviously
20:00:34 Zash Can you explain them in terms of ASN.1 encoding schemes? :)
20:00:57 arc compression is pre-compression plus DEFLATE
20:00:57 Zash (that was a fun rabbit hole too)
20:01:30 moparisthebest so which ones are secure under encryption? only pre-compression?
20:01:49 arc pre-compression is byte-aligned, but with similar types of data grouped together on the stream. so eg all int values are together, all string values together, etc
20:02:04 arc i wouldn't propose to know the answer to that moparisthebest
20:02:04 jonasw MattJ: socat READLINE: UDP:?
20:02:34 moparisthebest arc, probably should have someone figure it out before starting to use/promote it though?
20:02:36 arc but the idea with pre-compression is that some form of compression will be applied on, eg, the TLS layer
20:02:39 MattJ jonasw, I saw that, but READLINE seems to actually involve the readline library, i.e. it's intended for human input, not piping from another program
20:02:50 jonasw MattJ: and STDIN doesn’t do the trick? :/
20:02:58 jonasw *STDIO
20:03:10 moparisthebest arc, I think most if not all TLS libs removed support for TLS level compression because it's woefully insecure
20:03:25 arc moparisthebest: i can *barely* hold enough of the EXI specification in my head to work on it. i don't have room for encryption on top of it.
20:03:37 Ge0rG New personal record. Sigh: 64 bytes from 141.44.1.1: icmp_seq=9 ttl=53 time=377539 ms
20:03:40 MattJ jonasw, only if they split on lines (which I see no indication of)
20:03:46 jonasw meh
20:04:02 moparisthebest arc, and you shouldn't have to consider it at all as long as you don't do anything that makes it insecure, compression being one of those things
20:04:03 Ge0rG MattJ: I'd write a small loop with scapy.py
20:04:10 MattJ I found a utility, it just needs the correct command-line arguments
20:04:11 arc but i would assume if you consider compression insecure, eg DEFLATE, Brotli, etc, then you would prefer bitpacked over all options
20:04:13 MattJ lua -e'u=require"socket".udp() for line in io.lines() do u:sendto(line, os.getenv"HOST",os.getenv"PORT") end'
20:04:27 jonasw python3 -c 'import socket; s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_DGRAM); while True: s.write(s.stdin.readline().rstrip("\n"))'?
20:04:30 jonasw heh
20:04:34 MattJ Lua wints ;)
20:04:39 MattJ Lua wins ;)
20:05:07 arc at this point my primary concerns are the size of the embedded image. cutting text-domain XML out reduces the binary size of the library in about half. removing compression library is a pretty big win too.
20:05:14 jonasw moparisthebest: CRIME and BEAST are based on the fact that the packet size changes depending on previously sent content, I doubt that this is the case with bit-packed, from the sound of the name :)
20:05:19 jonasw but I haven’t looked into it, at all
20:05:29 arc wolfssl is pretty small
20:05:50 jonasw soo… now I have that xep-ecaps2.xml here, let’s check out xep-0001.xml on what I need to do next.
20:05:53 moparisthebest arc, well compression is insecure because if an attacker can add the string "ar" to the payload and the size doesn't increase, then add the string "arc" and it still doesn't change, and build up from there, it can figure out what's under the encryption
20:06:02 moparisthebest so if bit packing works in a similar way, it's equally insecure
20:06:22 Zash jonasw: Print it on paper, fold a paper airplane and aim for SamWhited :)
20:06:31 moparisthebest right jonasw I don't know either, just saying it's probably something that should be determined
20:06:46 arc moparisthebest: hmm. no i don't think so. so the only way you could reverse engineer it would be exploiting the string table.
20:06:52 moparisthebest like it'd be another useless thing to work on if it was proven as insecure as compression arc , idk
20:06:59 jonasw moparisthebest: it also probably does not matter much for IoT-thing <-> gatewaything.
20:07:22 moparisthebest yea it's pretty obvious security doesn't matter when it comes to IoT haha
20:07:35 jonasw like Ge0rG quoted yesterday: "The S in IoT is for security"
20:07:47 SamWhited It would actually be pretty awesome if XEPs were submitted that way…
20:08:23 arc moparisthebest: ok, so string values are stored in the string table. this refers to whole strings only, but eg a JID you're communicating with would be added to the string table and referenced by id.
20:08:25 SamWhited Please change the font to OCR-A or something first so I can scan it back in though.
20:08:26 jonasw SamWhited: because you would not have to do any work, as paper planes don’t travel several thousand km?
20:08:43 SamWhited jonasw: Says you; that just means you're not building a big enough paper airplane!
20:08:55 jonasw SamWhited: we could also try XMPP over RFC 1149
20:09:07 SamWhited heh, indeed
20:09:33 SamWhited My favorite part is that there are Errata for that one.
20:09:40 jonasw there was an actual implementation
20:09:50 moparisthebest ok arc so the full payload size would increase with the strings you added, say "arc" would increase it 3 bytes, *unless* that FULL string was already in there, then it wouldn't decrease at all? if I understood you correctly
20:10:22 moparisthebest that at least would not let you incrementally guess strings like 'a' then 'ar' then 'arc' etc etc
20:10:32 arc moparisthebest: so if you can send a string value containing a 3rd party JID that you want to know if that agent is already communicating with, AND you know the schema being used, then you can determine whether that agent has communicated with that JID already.
20:10:45 moparisthebest like you I don't know enough to say without a doubt that makes BREACH or CRIME not a problem, but it seems better to me...
20:10:53 arc moparisthebest: yes. I do not recall a method for partial or combined strings
20:10:57 jonasw assuming you can observe the network traffic between those entities, which may only be within the local wifi
20:11:02 Ge0rG RFC1149 would be faster than my current link.
20:11:08 arc i'm still loading the spec back into my head. but i remember that as a fault.
20:11:33 arc one of my criticisms of EXI actually is the lack of a "list" type
20:11:39 moparisthebest I'd feel better if someone like xnyhps said they'd reviewed it and it looked good to them :)
20:12:02 SamWhited eeew, I just decided I should actually print EXI and read it… but it goes on forever.
20:12:37 arc this comes up in some XML schemas such as SVG, where paths are made of collections of floats, ints, and characters separated by spaces
20:13:08 Zash Hm, I should look at what a printer costs
20:13:11 arc SamWhited: yea its not light reading. I recommend https://www.w3.org/TR/exi-primer/ to start with
20:13:18 SamWhited arc: Thanks
20:13:25 jonasw is there an email-adress where XEPs are supposed to go? the http://xmpp.org/xmpp-protocols/xmpp-extensions/submitting-a-xep/ page linked in XEP-1 404s
20:13:36 arc that gives a very nice overview without sucking you into the details
20:13:47 SamWhited jonasw: You can submit a PR on GitHub
20:13:49 jonasw Zash: nothing, just "google" for one and ask the owner kindly to send you the printouts :)
20:14:06 Ge0rG jonasw: you can make a PR of the XEP in inbox/
20:14:08 jonasw SamWhited: which puts my xep in the inbox/ dir?
20:14:09 jonasw right
20:14:13 SamWhited jonasw: Yup
20:14:20 arc you're younger than me, you might be able to handle it better, but ive had to segmentize the details so i dont get overwhelmed. its a lot to hold in your head at once
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20:14:38 SamWhited oh I doubt that; if you can't hold the entire spec in your head I doubt I have any chance
20:14:54 arc that's flattering but I doubt its true. age wears down your memory
20:15:08 SamWhited jonasw: See the other XEPs in there for naming, I *think* you don't want it to start with xep- for reasons that I can't remember… something, something tooling.
20:15:11 arc I'm turning 38.
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20:15:39 jonasw yeah, figured that much
20:16:04 moparisthebest speaking of the inbox, some of those things are *ancient*, does or should it ever be cleaned out?
20:17:06 jonasw am I the only one *always* falling for the delay github has with showing the "you have pushed to branch X n minutes ago, do you want to pull request?", hitting F5, seeing it appear before the page has reloaded, click compare & pull request and then the page reloads and you’re back to square one?
20:17:10 SamWhited I think the editor readme says it never gets cleaned out. We don't want to break old pages.
20:17:28 SamWhited Oh yah, I do that all the time
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20:17:54 moparisthebest break pages? do they get rendered?
20:18:16 moparisthebest or you just mean links to the xml ?
20:18:37 SamWhited moparisthebest: they get rendered on the site, just like actual XEPs
20:19:00 moparisthebest I didn't know that
20:19:26 jonasw SamWhited: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/440 consider yourself paperplaned also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co452wJ-3Lg (Long Distance Calling - Black Paper Planes) (Music)
20:19:34 moparisthebest https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/
20:19:36 moparisthebest awesome
20:19:51 SamWhited moparisthebest: Also, ¿Porque no los dos?
20:20:08 SamWhited (I couldn't find the adorable little girl gif to send, so you just get text)
20:20:44 arc given the current status of IoT I think I might actually focus for a few weeks on *just* the schema compiler and get a XEP out for it. the one thing im missing for the XEP is a definition for the schema of the schema
20:21:00 SamWhited > the schema of the schema
20:21:03 SamWhited I'm so sorry…
20:21:07 jonasw that meta
20:21:15 jonasw arc: schemas like in XML Schemas for XEPs?
20:21:27 jonasw how are you going to deal with the mostly incorrect or inaccurate schemas out here in XEPs?
20:21:40 jonasw well, probably not mostly.
20:21:50 jonasw but they’re not normative, I’ve been told once.
20:21:56 arc yea, in order for a client to transfer to the server the schema that it wants to use, which the server doesnt already have, it needs to be able to dump the EXI-encoded schema to the server. and that needs to be defined since every client and server needs to be able to understand it
20:23:08 arc so the EXI schema for the EXI schema needs to be defined in the XEP
20:23:15 jonasw that’s meta.
20:23:25 arc its why I havent touched the XEP yet.
20:23:36 arc but it needs to happen, and sooner the better
20:23:39 jonasw hands arc a large bag of tea.
20:24:53 moparisthebest sounds like he needs something harder to me
20:25:13 arc i havent written a line of code in a month. i'm up for it.
20:25:15 moparisthebest maybe 160+ proof
20:25:19 jonasw there are too many movies showing that coke doesn’t end well.
20:25:20 jonasw oh
20:25:22 jonasw nevermind.
20:25:23 Zash 160+ proof tea?
20:25:28 arc oh I have a copeous amount of cannabis
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20:25:57 arc there's a "Balmer limit" to cannabis too, though.
20:26:18 jonasw heh
20:26:49 arc er "Ballmer Peak" https://xkcd.com/323/
20:26:53 jonasw :D
20:26:56 dwd jonasw, That your protoxep? ecaps2?
20:27:04 jonasw dwd yes
20:27:20 arc though its more a cliff. more is better, to a point, and then rapid degeneration. its around the point that you start feeling like time is on a bungee chord
20:27:30 dwd jonasw, I think you win the prize for using every obscure separator character in the ASCII subset.
20:27:38 jonasw dwd: thanks :D
20:28:11 jonasw they were barely enough, I was worried I’d also need EOT
20:28:15 dwd jonasw, Can those appear in XML?
20:28:22 jonasw dwd: no.
20:28:36 jonasw XML forbids control characters except htab, newline and carriage return
20:28:47 jonasw (those between 0x00 and 0x20 at least)
20:28:57 Ge0rG Hm. Thereis an IoT thread going on with me in Cc. I wonder who deemed me so important and why.
20:29:22 dwd jonasw, Perfect. Nicely done.
20:29:30 jonasw dwd: thanks! :)
20:29:34 arc Ge0rG: you are the chosen one for IoT. you must lead the way, because everyone knows nobody else knows it
20:29:51 dwd arc, IoT is different and special from everything else.
20:30:19 Ge0rG arc: this must be a SCAM.
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20:31:16 arc I'm humored by these IoT "Meetups" full of VCs who think IoT means a standalone device that communicates solely with their service, like a modern wifi-connected thermometer that you can control with your phone through their online service
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20:32:48 Zash jonasw: "Cabability"
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20:33:04 arc in that ideology things like protocol standards don't matter. they mostly use a HTTP ReST API between the device an their service
20:33:06 dwd arc, The sad thing is that most of these devices are going that way.
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20:33:19 jonasw Zash: that’s only because you cannot use entities in <dt>! thanks, fixed locally, waiting for more of these stupid typos before I push another commit.
20:33:43 arc dwd: only because of the novelty of it. we need to catch up to steer course
20:33:46 dwd arc, And worse, those that aren't suffer - my iKettle, for instance, is controlled locally, but people want to integrate - and they have to integrate via cloud services now.
20:34:07 Zash dwd: Like the e-reader thing requiring an account with some online service to display text?
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20:34:18 arc why does your .. what i assume is a water kettle.. need remote access?
20:35:05 arc that's my other IoT rant that I won't get into. not everything needs a chip in it. bloody Target selling basketballs with a chip in it to count bounces and report them to your phone via bluetooth
20:35:11 dwd arc, So I can set it to boil from my desk, and - more importantly - so I get a notification on my smartwatch when it does.
20:35:14 arc my basketball does not need bluetooth.
20:35:38 dwd arc, I understand. You're wanting it to use zigbee instead?
20:35:48 arc dwd: lol
20:35:54 jonasw +1
20:36:03 arc dwd: you're doing well roleplaying an IoT VC!
20:36:28 dwd arc, I'm just like a VC, except without the money.
20:36:40 arc oh so you're homeless? ;-)
20:36:42 Zash dwd: My water boiler has this amazing wireless notification protocol called "loud click and the sound of boiling water slowly fading away"
20:36:55 moparisthebest a basketball with a bounce counting chip?
20:37:02 SamWhited mine makes a sort of loud whistling noise when the water is ready
20:37:04 dwd Zash, Well. I can actually hear the kettle from my desk, in fairness.
20:37:08 moparisthebest I'd think you were joking if I didn't know better
20:37:09 xnyhps moparisthebest: I didn't read much of the backlog, but the DEFLATE option for EXI very likely is vulnerable, without, probably.
20:37:13 Zash Weren't there baseballs with accelerometers in them to measure how hard they got hit?
20:37:15 SamWhited it sounds vaguely like air being forced through a small round opening
20:37:17 moparisthebest maybe I will move to a cabin in the woods like Zash :)
20:37:30 jonasw Zash: uh, I once had an oven which had the protocol of "if you don’t take care the water boils over the pots edge and flows down the sides into the oven tripping the RCA and thus cutting of your power"
20:37:32 arc we have a bluetooth enabled pressure cooker. it has a bluetooth range of maybe 8 feet, 10 if you're lucky. the app you need to communicate with it has basically a clone of the physical interface on the machine
20:37:51 moparisthebest xnyhps, yea any compression like deflate/brotli/etc would be, the question was whether the 'bitpacking' optimization without compression would be
20:38:09 moparisthebest or, without what we normally call compression
20:38:13 moparisthebest I suck at wording
20:38:39 Zash moparisthebest: Call it PER
20:39:18 arc xnyhps: DEFLATE only or newer methods like Brotli too
20:39:20 dwd moparisthebest, EXI in bitpacking mode doesn't have back-references, which is the basic issue.
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20:39:52 arc but there is the string table, which I think would argue could have issues, and that's in all modes.
20:40:54 arc your own JID, for example, will be on the string table. so if someone could send you a jid as an attribute value, i believe it could under specific conditions, confirm if that is your JID or not.
20:41:09 Zash jonasw: 'the i;octet' intentional or typo?
20:41:29 arc or if your device is communicating with a server, and they know which IP you're communicating with but not the specific hostname..
20:41:31 dwd Zash, ACAP Comparator. Not a typo.
20:41:58 jonasw Zash: that’s how it’s called. not my idea :/
20:42:00 dwd got his ACAP server compiling again the other day because someone actually wanted to use it.
20:42:21 Lance jonasw: ^5 on the XEP, this looks awesome
20:42:27 jonasw Lance: thanks
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20:42:58 arc but given what moparisthebest described earlier I think that's a lot less of a security risk, since you couldn't pull out substrings to progressively reverse engineer, and the specific conditions are more difficult to otherwise achieve
20:43:16 Zash jonasw, dwd: Well it could also have been an artifact of the conversion to epub I did
20:43:30 moparisthebest right I think you couldn't progressivly build up by guessing 1 character at a time that way arc
20:43:35 dwd Zash, RFC 4790, now, extracted from ACAP. My mistake, I'm behind the times.
20:43:47 xnyhps If you're not compressing the password anyway, the thread model becomes rather vague.
20:43:55 moparisthebest which again sounds better/more secure to me, but probably not as secure as not being able to guess at all? I'm sure someone could come up with an attack
20:44:18 xnyhps Finding out someone's JID requires quite a lot of access for not that much information.
20:44:22 arc yea no the string table refers to whole qnames and string values
20:44:43 xnyhps Or who someone is talking to, etc.
20:45:00 arc yea its not exposing, say, integer values coming from a sensor
20:45:16 dwd Surely you'd need to address things to them? So at best, you're able to try to guess if someone who you already know by IP address, who is also in a chatroom with you, is the Jid you think they are?
20:46:09 xnyhps dwd: Yeah, and you probably have much easier ways to do that.
20:46:10 arc well it only confirms that they're a JID in your string table. it wouldnt expose, necessarily, if they were that JID vs had talked to that JID
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20:46:48 arc EXI doesn't "understand" XMPP beyond the schema you provide it.
20:47:26 arc i think it might be possible under certain conditions for an IoT vendor to craft an insecure schema tho
20:47:40 arc for example sensor data should be fixed length
20:48:05 dwd TBH, I don't think that the use of deflate in XMPP is a general problem anyway. In extremely high-risk cases, perhaps, and if you're dumb enough to use PLAIN and TLS compression.
20:48:12 arc in that way EXI is more secure than text xml in that integer should be a fixed length, where a string representing an integer is not
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20:49:07 jonasw Zash: do you have a diff of xep 369 from 0.8 to 0.8.1 from your fancy difftool at hand?
20:49:23 arc for security any XEP for sensor data, it should be actually put in the security section that float and integer values should be zero-padded to their maximum value to decrease risk of data leakage
20:49:48 jonasw zero-padded to their maximum value? how does zero-padding to maximum value work?
20:50:32 arc if all the stanzas from a device are the same except being X length, X+1, X+2, X+3, etc based on the scale of a specific integer value, you can determine whether that value is 0-9, 10-99, 100-999, etc
20:50:38 Zash Don't EXI basically work like if you were to generate optimal C structs for all the things, then send that down the wire?
20:50:49 arc so if the maximum value is, say, 255, it should send as '001' '002' etc
20:51:09 jonasw arc: wait, leading zeros are encoded?
20:51:26 arc jonasw: for text xml
20:51:29 moparisthebest if it's a string it has to be
20:51:43 arc what i was saying is this is a weakness in text XML that EXI doesn't have
20:51:43 moparisthebest but even if not most things send integers in a set number of bytes
20:52:13 arc sure, but eg, a light sensor could flip between 0 and 100, and that would make it obvious what the state was
20:52:26 jonasw ah I thought you were talking about EXI already, of which I assumed that it encodes it as binary integer
20:52:38 arc people do not generally encode 0 as <light value="000"/>
20:52:51 arc yea it encodes as a binary integer
20:53:03 jonasw is it a variable-width encoding?
20:53:20 arc i would have to look that up again, i havent touched that part in awhile
20:53:34 arc i know you can constrain the range of most values
20:53:34 jonasw that would have the same issue then, and it cannot be worked around with leading zeros
20:54:42 arc well i don't believe its variable width per value, i think its only variable width by schema. if the schema says the integer value of a given attribute is 0 to 127, it'll do the right thing.
20:55:04 arc i havent touched that since november tho, id have to read up on it again
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20:55:17 jonasw no worries
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20:55:46 arc but im like 98% certain that an integer, float, etc value is fixed width from stanza to stanza
20:55:55 moparisthebest the question is if an integer can be 0 to 65535, it obviously encodes 60000 as 2 bytes, but does it encode 120 as 1 byte or 2 ?
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20:56:06 moparisthebest that'd be a type of compression too
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20:56:12 arc i believe that if an integer is a short it will always be a short.
20:56:18 moparisthebest could leak something, idk
20:56:28 arc you're right it could. but i dont think it does that.
20:56:33 moparisthebest that's how everything I can remember seeing works yea
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20:57:03 arc and when we draft EXI 2.0 that is something that should be definitely put on the table as a concern
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20:57:50 moparisthebest in general it seems like most things pre-2013 kind of took security as an after thought and might need to be revisted today
20:58:31 arc so far the only thing I would like to add to EXI is being able to encode a delineator-separated sequence like is used in SVG
20:58:38 arc if we had that, the SVG world would be all over it
20:59:00 arc being able to encode paths more efficiently would be a major breakthrough.
20:59:06 Zash jonasw: You happen to know which revisions that correspond to?
20:59:45 jonasw Zash: nevermind, I diffed it locally
20:59:56 arc my initial interest in EXI came from getting tired of hearing about why X chat system doesn't use XMPP, but a binary protocol, for efficiency on mobile / etc
21:00:08 arc and the same is true for SVG vs proprietary vector formats
21:00:15 jonasw I’m going to bring up the <feature xmlns="…" /> stuff on standards@ again.
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21:01:23 moparisthebest my complaint about SVG is that most things just arbitrarily execute javascript from them
21:01:28 moparisthebest not a great security feature
21:02:24 Ge0rG I wish I'd get some more insight from The Elders on carbonated body-less normal messages...
21:02:33 arc moparisthebest: the same is true for XHTML-IM
21:02:52 moparisthebest yep arc
21:03:23 jonasw script content is not allowed in XHTML-IM…
21:03:39 moparisthebest but like on my discourse instance I enabled common image format uploads, for example png, jpg, gif, and svg
21:03:48 jonasw (reminds me, I wanted to polish up my XSLT which strips off anything not allowed as per xep 71)
21:03:57 moparisthebest then, luckily it was a friend, uploaded an svg with some XSS javascript to steal cookies and showed me :)
21:04:20 jonasw are there any xslt/xhtml wizards here?
21:04:43 moparisthebest I'd assume this is where the xslt wizards live :) not me though
21:05:10 Lance jonasw: stuff like <a href="javascript:alert(1)"> can still exist even without allowing <script> elements
21:05:24 jonasw Lance: haven’t thought of hrefs, good point
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21:05:49 jonasw but that is usually easily filtered depending on the webview used
21:05:52 dwd Lance, Dependsing on CSP.
21:05:55 moparisthebest a blacklist would be a never ending hole
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21:06:06 jonasw moparisthebest: that’s why I’m using the whitelist from the XEP.
21:06:28 dwd moparisthebest, No, I mean Content Security Policy stuff would prevent inline javascript from working.
21:06:30 moparisthebest I'm not positive you can do that kind of thing with xslt
21:07:07 moparisthebest yea dwd, not sure how you get/set that with something like xhtml-im
21:07:19 moparisthebest surely if there was a handy .noJavascript() method they would have called it
21:07:46 arc XSLT could do it. You shouldn't do this with XSLT.
21:07:59 arc no matter how hard you try it will always leave a hole
21:08:02 jonasw arc: what exactly?
21:08:11 arc jonasw: filtering XML/HTML
21:08:17 jonasw hm
21:08:23 jonasw how else are you going to do it?
21:08:44 jonasw also, I think that this should be pretty sound: https://github.com/horazont/aioxmpp/blob/devel/data/xhtml-im-sanitise.xsl (leaving aside the @href issue)
21:09:01 arc I'm in the camp for saying XHTML-IM shouldn't be supported
21:09:07 arc I wasn't. now I am.
21:09:12 moparisthebest I agree
21:09:15 jonasw arc: I also do not like XHTML-IM.
21:09:28 jonasw but then again, there are people who want rich text in their IM clients.
21:09:39 Zash BBcode
21:09:41 moparisthebest you can have rich text without html
21:09:49 jonasw moparisthebest: is there a XEP for that?
21:09:57 moparisthebest not that I know of :)
21:09:58 arc https://plus.google.com/+ArcRiley/posts/BXpPxYRcRim
21:10:09 moparisthebest someone was advocating markdown somewhat recently
21:10:16 jonasw (actually, a body type="text/markdown" or type="text/rst" would be great; just make sure your markdown/rst doesn’t pass through HTML…)
21:10:59 moparisthebest right :) or it starts all over
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21:11:08 Zash Wasn't Markdown is defined as a HTML superset?
21:11:13 jonasw yes, Zash
21:11:19 arc i dont think thats still a complete solution.
21:11:25 Zash Nice things, you can't have them
21:11:35 arc the <a href="javascript:"> links will leak through
21:11:40 moparisthebest well as Zash said bbcode it is then
21:11:43 Lance plus the issues with multiple flavors of markdown, etc
21:11:47 moparisthebest I'm sure there are plenty of libraries already ready to use
21:11:49 moparisthebest in php...
21:11:56 jonasw gah, bbcode is annoying too.
21:12:00 Zash There can be only one! (And it is pandoc)
21:12:03 Zash <3 pandoc
21:12:24 moparisthebest as the saying goes annoying or insecure pick one
21:12:32 moparisthebest I probably just made that saying up
21:12:39 arc Lance: btw one thing i love is the stream framing from websockets? the added overhead for jabber:client namespaces is completely eliminated in EXI
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21:13:06 Lance yes!
21:13:30 arc if back then when that was being vexed over, if someone had said "in 5 years that won't be an issue anyway because EXI" it would have made the decision much easier
21:13:39 Flow jonasw: I do think that xep115 has hash agility, and signalling the caps using a second hash algo wouldn't require a ns bump
21:13:50 moparisthebest re: markdown only one markdown I know has a defined spec, http://commonmark.org/
21:14:06 arc good lord, i cant even use libxml2 anymore. its just painful.
21:14:18 jonasw Flow: there was some mailing list post where people discussed otherwise, in the thread Tobias linked I think
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21:15:09 arc schema-based xml coding makes so much more sense
21:15:49 moparisthebest so I think if you mandated commonmark with the exception of no support for http://spec.commonmark.org/0.27/#html-blocks it might be easier, would need more thought
21:15:50 Flow nothing prevents clients from using a second hash mech, as long as they still send the mandatory to implement one
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21:16:20 Zash Flow: You mean sending multiple <c> elements?
21:16:50 Flow Zash: yep
21:17:39 Zash Flow: Doesn't fix the algorithm for producing the hash tho
21:17:50 Flow Zash: Right
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21:19:03 Flow But I don't aggree with the statement that the change of the hash function of xep115 requires a namespace bump in ecaps2
21:19:31 Flow jonasw: Any particular reason for going with a new xep instead of updating xep115?
21:19:54 jonasw Flow: I asked here, and people suggested that a clean new xep is the better way to go.
21:20:48 Flow jonasw: i see
21:20:50 Lance IIRC, it was so we could flag 115 as obsoleted by the new one
21:21:11 Kev jonasw: Well, I think I suggested that a new XEP was the wrong way to go, and updating 115 was preferable :)
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21:21:14 Lance as an encouragement to devs to upgrade
21:21:18 jonasw Flow: to be clear, I’m happy to drop -xxxx and merge the changes into 115 if council prefers that.
21:21:31 Ge0rG also to prevent people from doing some compat with the old stuff badly.
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21:22:18 jonasw but considering that it were council people who suggested to go with a new xep, I followed that suggestion.
21:23:46 Flow pfff, council people are not always right ;)
21:24:04 Lance not even close :)
21:24:28 jonasw Flow: they’re, from my understanding, those who decide whether a patch to XEP-115 will be accepted though.
21:24:29 Kev I think it led to the wrong outcome in this case, but I can't fault the logic of taking advice from Council in general.
21:25:45 Flow Sure, asking for feedback is always a good idea.
21:26:07 SamWhited It seems like a good idea to me to go with a new XEP in this case just to encourage people not to try and have backwards compatibility with the old one (which rather defeats the purpose of having a new one), but I don't feel strongly about it and could be convinced either way.
21:26:37 jonasw in any case, I’m off for tonight. may read the backlog if highlighted
21:26:40 SamWhited defeats the purpose in this case, I mean, since it's a security issue. Backwards compatibility is sometimes a good idea.
21:26:46 Kev SamWhited: 115 is a core dependency of a *lot* of XEPs. I don't think replacing it is warranted in this case.
21:27:23 SamWhited yah, that is tricky, not sure what to do about that. Either way tough we'd have to solve that problem and I suspect the two will have to coexist for a while.
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21:27:33 Flow Kev: The question is: Is xep115 is dependency or xep115 *and* the current namespace of xep115?
21:27:47 Kev Well, at least for the dependency, it's straightforward, as the dependency is just on the latest version of 115.
21:28:01 Kev Whether it should be or not is another matter, of course.
21:29:09 Flow This is a fundamental question as we will find ourselves in the situation more and more in the future. For example with the XEPs depending on xep300
21:29:19 Lance Yeah, aside from PEP, most of the "dependency" for these XEPs is just the fact that it optimizes the true dependency on disco#info
21:29:30 Zash Do we need a BCP kind of thing?
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21:29:50 Flow Do we want to update all consumers of xep300 if it receives an incompatible update?
21:30:25 Flow Or do we want to sepcify a dependency as xep number *and* "namespace", and update the consumers one after another?
21:31:45 Flow Lance: Well said. I hate that some XEPs give you the impression that xep115 is an alternative to xep30
21:32:06 Flow Zash: BCP?
21:32:26 Zash Flow: IETF thing, like a pointer to the latest RFC on some specific topic.
21:32:37 Lance Best Current Practices
21:32:41 Flow ahh berst current practice
21:32:52 Zash Flow: RFCs never change, but a BCP may be changed to point to a new RFC
21:33:06 Flow isn't the the opposite what XEP do?
21:33:29 Flow i.e., they do change, so we need a pointer to a fixed revision of a xep
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21:33:48 Flow (which we have in our attic btw)
21:34:20 Zash Final XEPs are probably the closest to how RFCs work
21:34:29 Flow true
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21:35:27 Flow ahh, enough DNSSEC fun for today. I follow jonasw to the realm of sweet dreams where everthing is like it should be
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21:36:00 arc its too bad SRV records don't allow additional information
21:36:02 Ge0rG Flow: and dreem of jumping and colliding SHA1eep?
21:37:11 Lance arc: what kind of additional info?
21:37:30 arc i havent touch DNS resolution in awhile, can you send a single request for multiple SRV records?
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21:37:41 arc Lance: for example, the server capability, protocol version, etc
21:37:54 Zash arc: Multiple how?
21:37:55 moparisthebest with the same name sure
21:37:56 Lance arc: whether or not to start with EXI, hrm?
21:38:07 arc Lance: yes, or TLS, or etc
21:38:13 moparisthebest I suppose that'd be what TXT records are for arc
21:38:15 arc yes I know there's a XEP for TLS
21:38:22 moparisthebest or encode TLS or not TLS in the name like I did haha
21:38:34 moparisthebest that would easily explode though if you try to encode more
21:38:47 arc moparisthebest: yes, but doesnt that require multiple lookups? or can the two alternative names be requested at once?
21:39:08 moparisthebest now we have _xmpp-client, and _xmpps-client, we don't want _xmppse-client and _xmppe-client for exi for example too, probably
21:39:11 Zash _xmpp{s,}-{client-server}{,-exi}._tcp
21:39:22 arc yea. so.. part of EXI is the first byte of an EXI stream is never a valid text unicode string by any enconding
21:39:26 moparisthebest yea arc that's 2 seperate lookups
21:40:02 arc one way is SRV records. the other way is to just punch EXI at the server, and it either responds with EXI or not
21:40:09 moparisthebest arc, uh what about ALPN I think that neatly solves your problem?
21:40:16 arc ALPN?
21:40:31 moparisthebest tls extension, tells it the protocol(s) you'd like to speak
21:40:38 moparisthebest Application Layer Protocol Negotiation ?
21:40:43 moparisthebest http2 uses it
21:40:52 arc oh, yes that could work
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21:41:10 arc ive seen this before, just forgot about it
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21:41:24 moparisthebest xep-0368 uses it too, but optionally
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21:42:37 arc yea i saw this mentioned somewhere about http2 awhile ago. so, what does the payload look like
21:43:04 Zash A text string in a TLS extension
21:43:21 Ge0rG a byte array.
21:43:44 Ge0rG because text strings are imPRECISe
21:44:08 arc ok so we could define a meaning for that which is extensible to other things
21:44:13 moparisthebest yea Ge0rG is more correct it's a precisely defined sequence of bytes
21:44:32 arc the key is it must be possible to use EXI without support for text XML
21:44:50 moparisthebest so basically an EXI xep could depend on xmpps-* records from xep-0368, and send it's own custom ALPN protocol sequence
21:45:09 moparisthebest or optionally, both xmpp-client and xmpp-exi-client or whatever
21:45:17 moparisthebest and server would say I can speak X
21:45:31 moparisthebest at which point you'd proceed or try next SRV record
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21:46:04 arc i *hope* that server support would be well deployed before its an issue
21:47:07 arc oh interesting. it doesnt look like Contiki OS supports ALPN
21:47:08 Lance arc: also, once the EXI XEP is decent, I'd be happy to help with making a proper xmpp-exi websocket binary subprotocol
21:47:37 arc Lance: absolutely. but lets get a javascript library for it first ;-)
21:48:21 arc from the times its been brought up i think the right path is to kill 0322 and start fresh. the one up there is utter nonsense from an implementers point of view
21:49:21 arc 50% of the document is re-implementing EXI header format in a less compact form
21:50:07 arc and it doesn't even really get into how to handle a "pure" EXI stream (not starting with text XML)
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21:52:41 arc the mechanism I think is best is this: 1) Client sends EXI header with <open> framing. in the header, the schemaId field contains a hash identifier for the schema it wants to use, generally in sha256: URI format, but this allows future hash values to be used
21:53:32 arc 2) if server doesn't already have that schema, it responds with EXI header for a "default" stream using the schema-schema, and gives an error that the requested schema must be provided
21:55:36 arc 3) if client receives such an error, it will restart its EXI stream with the same schema and transfer that schema 4) server responds with the hash as it understands it wishes the client to use in the future (generally, sha256: URI) 5) stream restarts (or continues after step 1, if server responded with the EXI header for the same schema) normally
21:56:41 arc the error-restart method should only be needed after a server is wiped, upgraded, or the first time a client of a specific version connects to it. sha256 is suggested to minimize this (large servers will already have the schema on file) but can be boosted in the future
21:57:53 arc it otherwise uses the same framing as websocket.
22:00:10 arc vs XEP 0322 it removes the issues with asking the server to download schemas from a HTTP resource (eg, using XMPP servers to multiply ddos attacks on webservices), removes the need for a text XML parser, reduces handshakes to initiate a typical connection, and removes redundant negotiation
22:01:59 moparisthebest so it just sends a hash of the schema it wants to use?
22:02:08 moparisthebest no other info about it?
22:02:33 arc yes in the EXI header field for schemaId. i believe the hash URI standard allows for length too
22:03:18 moparisthebest I was going to ask what stops a malicious client from uploading a 10gb schema
22:03:30 arc if the hash isnt known by the server, it asks the client to transfer the whole thing, and then the server gives the client a URI to refer to that schema in the future - which might be a newer hash
22:03:52 arc moparisthebest: the server should cut it off at some point obviously. schema should never be anywhere near that big, especially EXI encoded.
22:04:20 arc i mean you could make the same claim for what stops a client from sending a 10g <stream:stream opening element with a gazillion attributes
22:04:26 moparisthebest that is true
22:04:55 moparisthebest I wonder what current servers do with that hehe
22:05:02 moparisthebest or clients
22:05:26 arc with EXI? the few experimental ones use XEP 0322
22:05:42 arc i am not aware of EXI being used in production anywhere tho
22:05:53 arc the only complete implementation of EXI I'm aware of is written in Java
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22:06:08 arc my libexi will be #2.
22:06:11 moparisthebest oh I meant I wonder what current servers or clients do with 10 gigabyte <stream:stream xml
22:06:20 arc oh, that's a good question
22:06:30 moparisthebest evil me wants to try it out
22:06:36 arc I'm willing to bet at least one will catch on fire
22:06:38 moparisthebest not at a production server of course other than mine :)
22:07:23 moparisthebest I'm guessing some are protected by a naive "no xml will contain > 10m so that's my buffer size"
22:07:34 moparisthebest or similar, but yea, testing time
22:08:05 arc well id bet actually that expat or libxml2 will dutifully attempt to parse it regardless.
22:08:14 SamWhited What is realistically the biggest packet size a server should expect? Not more than a couple of kilobytes surely?
22:08:39 arc SamWhited: with HTTP over XMPP it could be more. isnt there a way for a MTU to be set?
22:08:45 Kev Given the minimum maximum stanza size is 10k, no, a bit more than that.
22:08:51 Kev Depending what you mean by 'packet'.
22:09:07 arc i assume stanza
22:10:11 SamWhited yah, I don't know what I meant by packet… "start stream tag or any second level element" I suppose
22:10:51 arc amount of data in the XML parser which is not yet returned to the client?
22:10:51 arc er, application
22:11:13 arc moparisthebest: this is a good secure case to note
22:12:44 arc another issue servers might want to look out for is flooding it with new schemas. an LRU cache should be used to keep the number of schema from being pushed out of control by an attacker
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22:13:38 moparisthebest it might or might not matter, but it could be a bit racy
22:13:53 moparisthebest like if 10000 iot devices all connect at the same time, request the same hash, server doesn't have it
22:13:54 arc yea disk size. but you can flood that with logs too
22:13:59 moparisthebest I guess they all simultaneously upload it?
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22:14:31 arc that sounds like a crazy race condition
22:14:53 arc actually no, that'd almost never happen because each one has to be provisioned right?
22:15:21 moparisthebest it seems like it'd happen when you reboot the server or something though
22:15:24 arc i mean almost never happen that two try to send in the same schema at once. and one would hope the server can handle that well
22:15:40 arc oh, true. or upgrade it such that it wants to wipe the cache
22:15:56 moparisthebest maybe something like that
22:16:18 moparisthebest maybe you block the others while a few are uploading or something?
22:16:25 moparisthebest servers might be able to do something smartly
22:16:39 arc if a server policy is to, eg, use a SHA512 for added security because the operator considers SHA256 weak, even if it "has" the schema on disk it would need clients to transmit it in order to give it the hash that it wants
22:17:02 arc the schema shouldnt be large. thats why EXI encoding too.
22:17:10 moparisthebest I kind of assumed once a schema is uploaded the server would store it along with *all* the hashes
22:17:21 arc it could do that too.
22:17:33 moparisthebest anyway I'm off here for the day :) have a good one
22:18:04 arc so if a newer client asks for a sha512: right off the bat the server can respond "correctly"
22:19:24 arc all the server MUST do is return the schemaId it would like the client to refer to this schema with in the future. it SHOULD return with a hash URL, and it SHOULD record and handle any hash URL by any method the server considers secure
22:20:10 arc so that clients connecting to the server for the first time using the same schema as another client of the same model, can do so without having to send the schema first.
22:20:34 moparisthebest any reason it just wouldn't always use the hash?
22:20:46 arc #futurehash
22:20:46 moparisthebest that seems like the only way you could be safe knowing you were both talking about the same thing
22:21:25 arc allow the server to support future hash mechanisms without clients needing to understand them
22:22:54 arc a client sends a sha256: URI. the server responds to uploading it with a sha512: uri. client records and uses what the server gave it. the sha256: URI the client started with a guess. if sha512: were to become a new standard every client could use it.
22:23:33 arc otherwise a client connecting to a server for the first time would just start with the default schema and send the schema in order to get the identifier. which could become a bit much.
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22:24:00 arc in 2017 i think we all consider sha256 strong. 2020 who knows
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22:24:34 arc this is just me spitballing though.
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22:25:14 moparisthebest so maybe a server MUST respond with a hash, it MUST respond with the hash in the same algorithm the client sent unless it doesn't understand that algorithm, in which case it MUST respond with the hash in the 'strongest' algorithm the server supports as decided by the server
22:27:01 arc that has some odd implications too. the hash itself is added weight for every connection. if 256 is considered enough, it should use 256.
22:28:27 arc 802.15.4 devices have an effective MTU of around 100 bytes, and over 6lowpan packet fragmentation can cause real connectivity issues. its best to keep the EXI-encoded stanza payload under 100 bytes
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22:29:59 arc the exi header with a sha256 uri consumes almost 100 bytes by itself, iirc
22:30:10 arc if its just <open> though its fine
22:31:10 arc i imagine #futurehash is more likely to be used over 802.11ah or similar newer, low-power protocol though which isnt necessarily subjected to the same constraints
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22:38:04 arc in some cities right now, every bus is driving around with a 802.15.4 transceiver in a weather-proof plastic shell and a tiny solar cell glued to the top of the bus, rechargable battery, recording and sending realtime air quality data through a makeshift mesh network using, IIRC, some MQTT-based protocol
22:40:09 arc since they use 2.4ghz the buses are regularly delinked from the mesh network due to excessive frame collisions and inability to return pings, so restarting a stream on reconnect while under pressure is a real thing
22:40:42 arc fragmentation multiplies the problem in those cases.
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