fippospam pointing me to a jid on antispam.im... oh the irony (-:
Tobiastotally makes sense for spamproviders and antispam providers being in the same boat...the same works for cloundflare, who provide DDoS protection for DDoS booter sites ;)
Tobias*booster
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danielIs there a reason muc doesn't force all resources into using the same nick?
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SamWhitedI've honestly never considered that… I kind of want to go try it just to see how things behave.
jonasw"boom"
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danielthe reason i'm asking is because ejabberd now supports merging and parting multi sessions nicks. and Conversations behaves pretty badly when you actually try it
danieland gajim is even worse
danielwhich kinda lets me believe that this is a problem that can not really be fixed
jonaswyou could fix it in conversations, couldn’t you?
SamWhitedWhere "this" == "MUC"
jonaswalso, where can I test how bad pidgin breaks?
SamWhitedI'd be curious to see how other clients behave though; theoretically clients have to accept whatever NIC the server gives them, so I'd *think* this would "just work", but never underestimate client devs ability to ignore the spec :)
SamWhitedNick, even.
danieljonasw, yes and i'm about to. i'm mostly done
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danielhowever that's like soo many edge cases to consider
danieli'm confident that *I* will get that to work somehow. but i'm not sure for like 99% of the other clients out there
danielin that regard forcing a clients into the same nick might actually be the smoother edge case
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SamWhitedOn a similar note, why don't servers let you change to an existing nick if it's also owned by another resource? Every time I try to change my nick in Conversations ot a new room I'm in from the default one it sets I get the dreaded "nick already in use", and then have to part/join to use my own nick.
SamWhitedIt seems like this could work; but most of my intuitions about MUC end up being wrong, so…
jonaswif I understand you correctly, that’s one of the thigs ejabberd now allows and it’s simply because of "we don’t implement that" when it doesn’t work
danielSamWhited: yes I think that's a recent thing that ejabberd allow that now.
danielProsody still prevents this
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SamWhitedExcellent; all MUCs need to switch to ejabberd. That's quite possibly my biggest annoyance when using Conversations, I'd never considered that you could fix it on the server with either of these changes.
jonaswI think Zash mentioned that it’ll be a thing with prosody in 0.10 too
jonaswbut I might be wrong
danielSamWhited: the nick already in use is a server error
danielMeaning you have to fix it on the server side
danielThat's not a Conversations check
SamWhitedYah, I'd always wanted to fix the symptom, not the problem (by having a "default nick" setting in Conversations)
SamWhitedI'd still like that, because I'd still like a default nick on servers that don't force all resources to the same nick, but it would definitely be better if the error were fixed on the server too.
SamWhitedAlthough, even if you force all clients to the same nick, nick changes would still be break things I guess because I don't *think* there's a way to force clients to change their nick if they don't request it.
SamWhitedthinks out loud even though you've probably been through all this reasoning before because MUC is hard…
jonaswSamWhited: xep 45, around example 51:
If the service modifies the user's nickname in accordance with local service policies, it MUST include a MUC status code of 210 in the presence stanza sent to the user. An example follows (here the service changes the nickname to all lowercase).
danieland now that i fixed most of the bugs in conversations i think there is a bug in ejabberd
jonaswnot clear whether that can happen out of the blue
danielHolger, when i'm joined with two clients A and B both using the nick x and client A changes the nick to y client B will see y join (which is correct) but client A wont see x join
danielwhich i think would be the correct behaviour...
danielbut the fact that i'm not even sure about that doesn't speak for MUC
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danielanother thing you wouldn't have to worry about when forcing all clients in the same nick; if you you receive a message from another client with a different nick; does this count as a sent or as a received message?
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jonaswugh
jonaswcan we have MIX please.
danielin Conversations it actually counts as a received message; which totally confused me when testing multi session nicks; but in general this is probably expected behaviour?
kaboomdaniel: it's a received message, and: does forcing nick mean that I can no longer join a MUC with different nicks per resource?
danielkaboom, that whati mean by forcing the nick
kaboombut, why?
kaboomI use that as a feature...
danielkaboom, because it would get rid of *a lot* of problems
danielkaboom, https://xkcd.com/1172/
SamWhitedIs there any other big multi-user chat system that allows different clients using the same account to show up as different nicks? I don't know of any.
kaboomyou can already have multiple resources share a nick optionally, why force it?
SamWhited> kaboom, because it would get rid of *a lot* of problems
kaboomwhat problems?
danielthose i just described
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MattJThere are a lot of corner cases on the server wide with nick sharing
MattJProsody just doesn't let you change nick if you are sharing it with another resource, decided the complexity to implement it correctly wasn't worth it for the one person that might one day need this feature :)
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danielMattJ: I'm sure. However I'm starting to assume that (forced) nick sharing has fewer corner cases than allowing client to merge and split their nicks
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MattJI'd potentially be ok with that (forcing you to use a nick you are already using), but I don't really see a need for it
MattJIt's probably what users want in (almost?) all cases
MattJThe main problem is that from what I've seen, clients haven't traditionally been very good at handling server-forced nick changes
danielMattJ: well I'm kinda starting to assume that this will be easier for clients and maybe even for servers. Gajim for example has completely broken behavior when joining and splitting nicks
MattJI'm not sure why clients should have any issue with it, if the server does it correctly
Ge0rGprosody's current behavior makes it really hard to change your nickname if you are using two clients, already.
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MattJs/hard/impossible/? (unless you rejoin)
Ge0rGMattJ: yes, unless you rejoin with all clients at the same time. it's a PITA
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MattJOh, you want to change nick on all clients
MattJYeah, we could implement it, but again, is it really useful? and then... will clients handle it?
Ge0rGIt might be a good thing to enforce the nick change over all clients as well
Ge0rGI'm sure clients will love to receive a new nickname
MattJExactly
Ge0rGI still don't see how any part of MSN can negatively affect the client-side protocol implementation
MattJNo, I think it can always be transparent to clients if done correctly
danielMy gajim has a different story to tell on that
Ge0rGwhat MattJ said.
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Ge0rGdaniel: it's a received message if it comes from another nickname, and it's a sent message if it comes from another nickname. just ignore the non-anon-MUC JID ;)
MattJThe server has remote code execution on the client for the following operations: nick joined, nick changed, nick left
Ge0rGdaniel: and what you described above sounds like a bug in ejabberd
MattJi.e. it has full control over the nick list
MattJin every client
Ge0rGthe thing with "sent" messages in a MUC is: how do you know if it's the one you sent right now or a message from an MSN client?
MattJTo implement every operation for nick sharing, you have to stop thinking about room state management and code for client state management instead
Ge0rGMattJ: you need to think about both, actually.
Ge0rGStill, I'd love to have prosody either implement nick-split and nick-join, or to enforce a nick-change over all MSN resources
Ge0rGthe current situation is really cumbersome, especially with clients that disallow editing a MUC you are not joined to *cough*conversations*cough*
MattJI think enforcing nick change is likely the easiest, but I don't think many clients handle it
MattJMaybe we should just try that and see
Ge0rGMattJ: +1 to that.
Ge0rGMattJ: I'm sure it affects the same clients that fail to recognize that your nickchange was rejected by the server.
danielMattJ, if a client doesn't handle nick changes; how can you expect them to handle the merging and seperation of nicks properly
Ge0rGdaniel: because merge and separation are join and leave events for a different participant
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Ge0rGdaniel: when you initiate a nick change, you see that change followed by a join of your other client, everybody else (including the other client) will see your new nickname joining
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Zashdaniel: I haven't seen any client handle forced nicknames
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danielZash, conversations certainly does. I haven't check others
danielsure that's not common?
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Zashdaniel: all I tested broke in varying ways
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Ge0rGZash: now I'm surprised. They break on forced nick change, but not when the server denies a change?
ZashNick override on join at least
Ge0rGMy client doesn't even always recognize MUC events.
Ge0rGSomething is leaking presence listeners...
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kaboomJust for the record: because most clients an servers fail to properly implement nick split/join, you want to remove the feature of being present with multiple nicks completely. Ever thought of removing just the split/join and forbid nick changes when being online with multiple resources? Solves the problem without losing a totally unrelated feature...
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Ge0rGkaboom: prosody forbids nick changes for MSN, and it's a usability nightmare
