XSF Discussion - 2017-03-05

  1. Yagiza has left
  2. Yagiza has joined
  3. vurpo has left
  4. vurpo has joined
  5. nicolas.verite has left
  6. Mancho has left
  7. Mancho has left
  8. Mancho has left
  9. Mancho has left
  10. Guus has left
  11. kalkin has left
  12. Guus has joined
  13. Guus has left
  14. Guus has joined
  15. Zash has left
  16. nicolas.verite has joined
  17. kaboom has left
  18. Guus has left
  19. Guus has joined
  20. Tobias has joined
  21. Tobias has joined
  22. Guus has left
  23. nicolas.verite has left
  24. nicolas.verite has joined
  25. Guus has joined
  26. Lance has joined
  27. Guus has left
  28. jere has left
  29. jere has joined
  30. Guus has joined
  31. kalkin has left
  32. jere has left
  33. jere has joined
  34. Guus has left
  35. jere has joined
  36. nicolas.verite has left
  37. vurpo has left
  38. vurpo has joined
  39. Guus has joined
  40. SamWhited has left
  41. Lance has left
  42. Guus has left
  43. moparisthebest has left
  44. moparisthebest has left
  45. moparisthebest has joined
  46. moparisthebest has left
  47. moparisthebest has left
  48. Guus has joined
  49. moparisthebest has joined
  50. uc has left
  51. uc has joined
  52. nicolas.verite has joined
  53. nicolas.verite has left
  54. nyco has joined
  55. nyco has joined
  56. bra has left
  57. bra has joined
  58. stefandxm has left
  59. stefandxm has joined
  60. Flow has joined
  61. Flow has left
  62. daniel has left
  63. daniel has joined
  64. blipp has left
  65. blipp has joined
  66. arc has left
  67. intosi has joined
  68. nicolas.verite has joined
  69. daniel has left
  70. daniel has joined
  71. arc has left
  72. arc has joined
  73. intosi has left
  74. goffi has joined
  75. kaboom has joined
  76. goffi has left
  77. goffi has joined
  78. Guus has left
  79. Guus has joined
  80. goffi has left
  81. Guus has left
  82. Guus has joined
  83. Guus has left
  84. suzyo has joined
  85. McKael has left
  86. efrit has joined
  87. daniel has left
  88. daniel has joined
  89. daniel has left
  90. daniel has joined
  91. McKael has joined
  92. Valerian has joined
  93. kalkin has left
  94. Mancho has left
  95. jonasw arc: you should make a talk about that :-)
  96. kalkin has joined
  97. suzyo has left
  98. waqas has joined
  99. jubalh has joined
  100. jubalh has left
  101. suzyo has joined
  102. jubalh has joined
  103. jubalh has left
  104. jubalh has joined
  105. goffi has joined
  106. Zash has joined
  107. daniel has left
  108. daniel has joined
  109. jubalh has left
  110. suzyo has left
  111. nyco has joined
  112. Yagiza has joined
  113. kalkin has left
  114. Guus has joined
  115. Guus has left
  116. kalkin has joined
  117. Guus has joined
  118. sezuan has left
  119. Valerian has left
  120. Guus has left
  121. Guus has joined
  122. nyco has joined
  123. jere has joined
  124. fippo spam pointing me to a jid on antispam.im... oh the irony (-:
  125. Tobias totally makes sense for spamproviders and antispam providers being in the same boat...the same works for cloundflare, who provide DDoS protection for DDoS booter sites ;)
  126. Tobias *booster
  127. Tobias has left
  128. koyu has joined
  129. efrit has joined
  130. daniel has left
  131. daniel has joined
  132. jere has joined
  133. jere has joined
  134. nyco has joined
  135. nyco has joined
  136. nicolas.verite has left
  137. nicolas.verite has joined
  138. suzyo has joined
  139. vurpo has left
  140. vurpo has joined
  141. winfried has left
  142. mimi89999 has left
  143. winfried has joined
  144. daniel has left
  145. daniel has joined
  146. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  147. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  148. Guus has left
  149. Guus has joined
  150. kalkin has left
  151. Yagiza has joined
  152. kalkin has joined
  153. Yagiza has left
  154. Zash has left
  155. Zash has left
  156. Guus has left
  157. Zash has joined
  158. Guus has joined
  159. mimi89999 has joined
  160. koyu has left
  161. koyu has joined
  162. vurpo has left
  163. vurpo has joined
  164. intosi has joined
  165. uc has left
  166. uc has joined
  167. uc has left
  168. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  169. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  170. uc has joined
  171. goffi has left
  172. uc has left
  173. sezuan has left
  174. uc has joined
  175. uc has left
  176. uc has joined
  177. uc has left
  178. uc has joined
  179. Tobias has joined
  180. Tobias has joined
  181. Tobias has joined
  182. uc has left
  183. uc has joined
  184. Tobias has joined
  185. uc has left
  186. uc has joined
  187. Guus has left
  188. Guus has joined
  189. intosi has left
  190. jere has joined
  191. Guus has left
  192. arc has left
  193. Guus has joined
  194. kaboom has left
  195. kaboom has joined
  196. uc has left
  197. uc has joined
  198. Guus has left
  199. intosi has joined
  200. Guus has joined
  201. daniel has left
  202. daniel has joined
  203. Zash has joined
  204. devnull has left
  205. devnull has joined
  206. intosi has left
  207. intosi has joined
  208. intosi has left
  209. vurpo has left
  210. vurpo has joined
  211. daniel has left
  212. jere has joined
  213. vurpo has left
  214. kaboom has left
  215. vurpo has joined
  216. Guus has left
  217. Guus has joined
  218. daniel has left
  219. nyco has left
  220. nyco has joined
  221. nicolas.verite has left
  222. nyco has left
  223. nyco has joined
  224. suzyo has left
  225. daniel has left
  226. suzyo has joined
  227. suzyo has left
  228. suzyo has joined
  229. daniel has left
  230. nicolas.verite has joined
  231. daniel has left
  232. Guus has left
  233. Guus has joined
  234. blipp has left
  235. daniel has left
  236. daniel has left
  237. nicolas.verite has left
  238. Yagiza has joined
  239. nyco has joined
  240. daniel has left
  241. goffi has joined
  242. daniel has left
  243. nyco has joined
  244. daniel has left
  245. kaboom has joined
  246. vurpo has left
  247. vurpo has joined
  248. daniel Is there a reason muc doesn't force all resources into using the same nick?
  249. daniel has left
  250. nicolas.verite has joined
  251. SamWhited I've honestly never considered that… I kind of want to go try it just to see how things behave.
  252. jonasw "boom"
  253. daniel has left
  254. suzyo has left
  255. daniel the reason i'm asking is because ejabberd now supports merging and parting multi sessions nicks. and Conversations behaves pretty badly when you actually try it
  256. daniel and gajim is even worse
  257. daniel which kinda lets me believe that this is a problem that can not really be fixed
  258. jonasw you could fix it in conversations, couldn’t you?
  259. SamWhited Where "this" == "MUC"
  260. jonasw also, where can I test how bad pidgin breaks?
  261. SamWhited I'd be curious to see how other clients behave though; theoretically clients have to accept whatever NIC the server gives them, so I'd *think* this would "just work", but never underestimate client devs ability to ignore the spec :)
  262. SamWhited Nick, even.
  263. daniel jonasw, yes and i'm about to. i'm mostly done
  264. xnyhps has left
  265. daniel however that's like soo many edge cases to consider
  266. daniel i'm confident that *I* will get that to work somehow. but i'm not sure for like 99% of the other clients out there
  267. daniel in that regard forcing a clients into the same nick might actually be the smoother edge case
  268. Zash has joined
  269. SamWhited On a similar note, why don't servers let you change to an existing nick if it's also owned by another resource? Every time I try to change my nick in Conversations ot a new room I'm in from the default one it sets I get the dreaded "nick already in use", and then have to part/join to use my own nick.
  270. SamWhited It seems like this could work; but most of my intuitions about MUC end up being wrong, so…
  271. jonasw if I understand you correctly, that’s one of the thigs ejabberd now allows and it’s simply because of "we don’t implement that" when it doesn’t work
  272. daniel SamWhited: yes I think that's a recent thing that ejabberd allow that now.
  273. daniel Prosody still prevents this
  274. blipp has left
  275. SamWhited Excellent; all MUCs need to switch to ejabberd. That's quite possibly my biggest annoyance when using Conversations, I'd never considered that you could fix it on the server with either of these changes.
  276. jonasw I think Zash mentioned that it’ll be a thing with prosody in 0.10 too
  277. jonasw but I might be wrong
  278. daniel SamWhited: the nick already in use is a server error
  279. daniel Meaning you have to fix it on the server side
  280. daniel That's not a Conversations check
  281. SamWhited Yah, I'd always wanted to fix the symptom, not the problem (by having a "default nick" setting in Conversations)
  282. SamWhited I'd still like that, because I'd still like a default nick on servers that don't force all resources to the same nick, but it would definitely be better if the error were fixed on the server too.
  283. SamWhited Although, even if you force all clients to the same nick, nick changes would still be break things I guess because I don't *think* there's a way to force clients to change their nick if they don't request it.
  284. SamWhited thinks out loud even though you've probably been through all this reasoning before because MUC is hard…
  285. jonasw SamWhited: xep 45, around example 51: If the service modifies the user's nickname in accordance with local service policies, it MUST include a MUC status code of 210 in the presence stanza sent to the user. An example follows (here the service changes the nickname to all lowercase).
  286. daniel and now that i fixed most of the bugs in conversations i think there is a bug in ejabberd
  287. jonasw not clear whether that can happen out of the blue
  288. daniel Holger, when i'm joined with two clients A and B both using the nick x and client A changes the nick to y client B will see y join (which is correct) but client A wont see x join
  289. daniel which i think would be the correct behaviour...
  290. daniel but the fact that i'm not even sure about that doesn't speak for MUC
  291. waqas has left
  292. suzyo has joined
  293. jonasw ugh
  294. koyu has left
  295. devnull has left
  296. devnull has joined
  297. Guus has left
  298. Guus has joined
  299. daniel another thing you wouldn't have to worry about when forcing all clients in the same nick; if you you receive a message from another client with a different nick; does this count as a sent or as a received message?
  300. Guus has left
  301. Guus has joined
  302. jonasw ugh
  303. jonasw can we have MIX please.
  304. daniel in Conversations it actually counts as a received message; which totally confused me when testing multi session nicks; but in general this is probably expected behaviour?
  305. kaboom daniel: it's a received message, and: does forcing nick mean that I can no longer join a MUC with different nicks per resource?
  306. daniel kaboom, that whati mean by forcing the nick
  307. kaboom but, why?
  308. kaboom I use that as a feature...
  309. daniel kaboom, because it would get rid of *a lot* of problems
  310. daniel kaboom, https://xkcd.com/1172/
  311. SamWhited Is there any other big multi-user chat system that allows different clients using the same account to show up as different nicks? I don't know of any.
  312. kaboom you can already have multiple resources share a nick optionally, why force it?
  313. SamWhited > kaboom, because it would get rid of *a lot* of problems
  314. kaboom what problems?
  315. daniel those i just described
  316. kaboom has left
  317. mimi89999 has joined
  318. kaboom has joined
  319. vurpo has left
  320. vurpo has joined
  321. waqas has joined
  322. Mancho has left
  323. daniel has left
  324. daniel has left
  325. Guus has left
  326. moparisthebest has joined
  327. Zash has joined
  328. suzyo has left
  329. suzyo has joined
  330. daniel has left
  331. daniel has left
  332. Yagiza has left
  333. Tobias has joined
  334. waqas has left
  335. uc has left
  336. uc has joined
  337. Zash has joined
  338. kalkin has left
  339. moparisthebest has joined
  340. suzyo has left
  341. Guus has joined
  342. daniel has left
  343. Guus has left
  344. Guus has joined
  345. SouL has left
  346. SouL has joined
  347. Valerian has joined
  348. mimi89999 has joined
  349. MattJ There are a lot of corner cases on the server wide with nick sharing
  350. MattJ Prosody just doesn't let you change nick if you are sharing it with another resource, decided the complexity to implement it correctly wasn't worth it for the one person that might one day need this feature :)
  351. blipp has left
  352. daniel MattJ: I'm sure. However I'm starting to assume that (forced) nick sharing has fewer corner cases than allowing client to merge and split their nicks
  353. pep. has left
  354. MattJ I'd potentially be ok with that (forcing you to use a nick you are already using), but I don't really see a need for it
  355. MattJ It's probably what users want in (almost?) all cases
  356. MattJ The main problem is that from what I've seen, clients haven't traditionally been very good at handling server-forced nick changes
  357. daniel MattJ: well I'm kinda starting to assume that this will be easier for clients and maybe even for servers. Gajim for example has completely broken behavior when joining and splitting nicks
  358. MattJ I'm not sure why clients should have any issue with it, if the server does it correctly
  359. Ge0rG prosody's current behavior makes it really hard to change your nickname if you are using two clients, already.
  360. Guus has left
  361. MattJ s/hard/impossible/? (unless you rejoin)
  362. Ge0rG MattJ: yes, unless you rejoin with all clients at the same time. it's a PITA
  363. Guus has joined
  364. MattJ Oh, you want to change nick on all clients
  365. MattJ Yeah, we could implement it, but again, is it really useful? and then... will clients handle it?
  366. Ge0rG It might be a good thing to enforce the nick change over all clients as well
  367. Ge0rG I'm sure clients will love to receive a new nickname
  368. MattJ Exactly
  369. Ge0rG I still don't see how any part of MSN can negatively affect the client-side protocol implementation
  370. MattJ No, I think it can always be transparent to clients if done correctly
  371. MattJ But it's really hard to do correctly
  372. daniel https://share.gultsch.de/daniel/2QCLUVwufHdGb2xM/7yWOlGliQhCohcZwJlpvdQ.jpg
  373. daniel My gajim has a different story to tell on that
  374. Ge0rG what MattJ said.
  375. nicolas.verite has left
  376. Ge0rG daniel: it's a received message if it comes from another nickname, and it's a sent message if it comes from another nickname. just ignore the non-anon-MUC JID ;)
  377. MattJ The server has remote code execution on the client for the following operations: nick joined, nick changed, nick left
  378. Ge0rG daniel: and what you described above sounds like a bug in ejabberd
  379. MattJ i.e. it has full control over the nick list
  380. MattJ in every client
  381. Ge0rG the thing with "sent" messages in a MUC is: how do you know if it's the one you sent right now or a message from an MSN client?
  382. MattJ To implement every operation for nick sharing, you have to stop thinking about room state management and code for client state management instead
  383. Ge0rG MattJ: you need to think about both, actually.
  384. Ge0rG Still, I'd love to have prosody either implement nick-split and nick-join, or to enforce a nick-change over all MSN resources
  385. Ge0rG the current situation is really cumbersome, especially with clients that disallow editing a MUC you are not joined to *cough*conversations*cough*
  386. MattJ I think enforcing nick change is likely the easiest, but I don't think many clients handle it
  387. MattJ Maybe we should just try that and see
  388. Ge0rG MattJ: +1 to that.
  389. Ge0rG MattJ: I'm sure it affects the same clients that fail to recognize that your nickchange was rejected by the server.
  390. daniel MattJ, if a client doesn't handle nick changes; how can you expect them to handle the merging and seperation of nicks properly
  391. Ge0rG daniel: because merge and separation are join and leave events for a different participant
  392. Valerian has left
  393. Ge0rG daniel: when you initiate a nick change, you see that change followed by a join of your other client, everybody else (including the other client) will see your new nickname joining
  394. jonasw has left
  395. nicolas.verite has joined
  396. nicolas.verite has left
  397. nyco has joined
  398. nyco has joined
  399. daniel has left
  400. ralphm has left
  401. vurpo has left
  402. vurpo has joined
  403. sezuan has left
  404. Zash daniel: I haven't seen any client handle forced nicknames
  405. Valerian has joined
  406. daniel Zash, conversations certainly does. I haven't check others
  407. daniel sure that's not common?
  408. nyco has left
  409. Zash daniel: all I tested broke in varying ways
  410. nicolas.verite has joined
  411. nicolas.verite has left
  412. nyco has joined
  413. jere has left
  414. jere has joined
  415. vurpo has left
  416. vurpo has joined
  417. mimi89999 has joined
  418. SamWhited has joined
  419. moparisthebest has joined
  420. SamWhited has left
  421. Valerian has left
  422. Valerian has joined
  423. Lance has joined
  424. Valerian has left
  425. Valerian has joined
  426. Valerian has left
  427. daniel has left
  428. Valerian has joined
  429. Lance has left
  430. SamWhited has left
  431. Ge0rG has joined
  432. Ge0rG Zash: now I'm surprised. They break on forced nick change, but not when the server denies a change?
  433. Zash Nick override on join at least
  434. Ge0rG My client doesn't even always recognize MUC events.
  435. Ge0rG Something is leaking presence listeners...
  436. goffi has left
  437. sezuan has left
  438. arc has joined
  439. Lance has joined
  440. kaboom Just for the record: because most clients an servers fail to properly implement nick split/join, you want to remove the feature of being present with multiple nicks completely. Ever thought of removing just the split/join and forbid nick changes when being online with multiple resources? Solves the problem without losing a totally unrelated feature...
  441. Valerian has left
  442. goffi has joined
  443. Martin has joined
  444. Ge0rG kaboom: prosody forbids nick changes for MSN, and it's a usability nightmare
  445. Ge0rG Error> xsf@muc.xmpp.org/Zash: modify: Unknown error
  446. Ge0rG Hm. something is wrong
  447. Zash Didn't I disable mod_firewall?
  448. Ge0rG 21:18:06 IN <message type="error" id="3ca0c0b6-3334-45f3-a65d-5d5d4a974adb-8D9B" to="georg@yax.im/9f1e6da6-2e3c-46d5-80ab-e73ac32d4719" from="xsf@muc.xmpp.org/Zash"><error type="modify"><policy-violation xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" /></error></message>
  449. waqas has joined
  450. nicolas.verite has joined
  451. Ge0rG I wonder why Zash isn't kicked for sending errors to the MUC
  452. MattJ Only certain errors are "kickable"
  453. MattJ The list isn't standardized
  454. Ge0rG Yay.
  455. MattJ Don't dig any deeper
  456. nicolas.verite has left
  457. waqas Kicking on error isn't standardized, is it?
  458. MattJ No, I don't think so
  459. Ge0rG is there even one place in XEP 0045 that is properly standardized?
  460. nyco has left
  461. nyco has joined
  462. nicolas.verite has joined
  463. nicolas.verite has left
  464. sezuan has left
  465. Guus has left
  466. Guus has joined
  467. Valerian has joined
  468. nicolas.verite has joined
  469. nicolas.verite has left
  470. Valerian has left
  471. Valerian has joined
  472. Valerian has left
  473. Guus has left
  474. Guus has joined
  475. suzyo has joined
  476. goffi has left
  477. kaboom has joined
  478. kaboom has left
  479. kaboom has joined
  480. Zash has joined
  481. Zash has left
  482. efrit has joined
  483. Martin has left
  484. Mancho has left
  485. jere has joined
  486. jere has joined
  487. moparisthebest has joined
  488. daniel has left
  489. moparisthebest has joined
  490. Lance has left
  491. SamWhited has left
  492. moparisthebest has left
  493. goffi has joined
  494. moparisthebest has joined
  495. Lance has joined
  496. suzyo has left
  497. Valerian has joined
  498. Valerian has left
  499. Lance has left
  500. Lance has joined
  501. Mancho has left
  502. Mancho has left
  503. kalkin has left
  504. vurpo has left
  505. vurpo has joined
  506. vurpo has left
  507. vurpo has joined
  508. goffi has left
  509. daniel has left
  510. daniel has joined
  511. daniel has left
  512. vurpo has left
  513. vurpo has joined
  514. Zash has left