XSF Discussion - 2017-03-06

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  151. jonasw Ge0rG: I think it is pretty clear how to send a message to a MUC.
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  157. Ge0rG jonasw: but there is no way to know that it arrived :P
  158. jonasw indeed :-)
  159. jonasw uh
  160. jonasw we should try to smuggle a <feature var='muc_keeps_ids' /> in your PR
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  163. Ge0rG jonasw: I tried and failed, some two years ago. I think clients that care enough just need to embed a [xep 359] tag
  164. jonasw ah clever
  165. Ge0rG jonasw: I consider it a crude hack.
  166. jonasw depends on the point of view regarding the id uniqueness per stream
  167. Ge0rG I know that XMPP is old, but it's had sufficient time and opportunity to adapt and to make reliable message routing a first class citizen
  168. jonasw will we get that with MIX?
  169. jonasw (.oO(make all <message/>s <iq/>s!)
  170. jonasw )
  171. Ge0rG and instead we've got acks, stream management, carbons, mix, stable-message-ids, which all solve partially overlapping partial problems.
  172. jonasw not sure that anything of acks, SM and Carbons is really overlapping.
  173. Ge0rG I really don't want to get started about this today. I haven't had my coffeine yet, and there is an important meeting in one hour :>
  174. jonasw :D
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  176. Ge0rG jonasw: SM and acks both implement message reliability mechanisms, two faces of the same medal.
  177. jonasw but on a different scope
  178. Ge0rG jonasw: it's absolutely the same logic, just different endpoints.
  179. jonasw yes
  180. Ge0rG except one is a message attribute and the other is a nonza.
  181. jonasw that’s what I mean by differetn scope
  182. jonasw *message child element I hope
  183. Ge0rG right.
  184. Ge0rG and then we have the problem that carbons don't carbonate 0184 acks because those are "normal" messages.
  185. jonasw carbons is a mess
  186. Ge0rG I'm asking for multiple years now to replace carbons and "classic" bind with a MAM subscription mechanism.
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  188. Ge0rG you authenticate, and instead of doing all the crufty "bind session, enable carbons, query MAM, send presence" just do a nice and simple bind2 with MAM subscription.
  189. Ge0rG depending on the order of the above, you'll get crazy side effecs.
  190. jonasw yeah, I got that from the bind2 xep
  191. Ge0rG but bind2 still doesn't give us MAM subscription
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  193. jonasw I was also wondering about a different thing. Assuming I have a MIX in my roster and a client freshly connects to my account. Then right after the connection is established (before the client got a chance to send any disco#info requests), someone writes a message in the MIX and my client thus gets a message from somemix+someuser@mixservice. How is it supposed to know that this is a mix and show the message correctly?
  194. jonasw is MAM subscription a thing?
  195. Ge0rG so we have two different mechanisms for offline and online sync now, with different message retention properties.
  196. Ge0rG jonasw: I suppose your MIX proxy will figure out from the client's caps that it's not MIX enabled
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  198. jonasw well, no, the client *can* do MIX
  199. jonasw but it hasn’t seen the account yet
  200. Ge0rG jonasw: otherwise, you're f***ed.
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  202. Ge0rG jonasw: this is exactly why I'm complaining about MIX-in-roster
  203. jonasw what does this have to do with MIX-in-roster?
  204. Ge0rG jonasw: implicit join on connect.
  205. jonasw I think that’s a feature
  206. Ge0rG jonasw: until you get a message from a MIX.
  207. jonasw yes well, I need to know that it’s a MIX
  208. Ge0rG yes you do
  209. Ge0rG jonasw: you could spawn a thread to process that message, and have the thread query the domain / plus-less JID / something about what it is.
  210. jonasw thanks, but that’s insane
  211. Ge0rG jonasw: you could also just do a blocking query :P
  212. jonasw that’s not better
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  214. Ge0rG jonasw: maybe your client can see that you are in somemix@mixservice from your annotated roster, and thus determine that somemix+someuser@mixservice must be a participant of that mix?
  215. jonasw that could worl
  216. jonasw *work
  217. jonasw if the roster is actually going to be annotated, that could indeed work.
  218. jonasw won’t work for mixes which are not in the roster thoguh
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  294. Ge0rG In the context of auto-generated UUID-JIDs for private MUCs/MIXes, there is an interesting question of how to prevent impersonation attacks.
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  296. jonasw Ge0rG: reject MIXes/MUCs with anonymous settings for that purpose?
  297. jonasw and then look up the JIDs to make sure they match
  298. jonasw uhm, I may not be so sure about your usecase anymore
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  305. Ge0rG jonasw: if the MIX/MUC is on a different server than yours or your inviting contact's, the MIX/MUC can misbehave and feed you "trusted" JIDs
  306. jonasw if you assume that the service is evil, end-to-end is probably the only way out
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  308. Ge0rG jonasw: I assume that my own server is not evil, but an evil third-party server might exist.
  309. jonasw still applies
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  311. Ge0rG jonasw: I think there is room for a security model somewhere between "trust everybody" and "trust nobody, run e2ee everywhere"
  312. Ge0rG jonasw: something like "trust my server to properly handle MUCs and contacts, and not to lie to me about users' JIDs"
  313. Ge0rG jonasw: otherwise we are deep into sign-MUC-invitations-and-participant-lists-with-OMEMO land
  314. jonasw yes, but that’s not a way to prevent impersonation attacks; that’s a way to say "they don’t matter because those who can execute them won’t do that"
  315. Ge0rG jonasw: good point. Then we really need to sign every presence and message.
  316. jonasw indeed
  317. jonasw or use peer-to-peer MUCs :-)
  318. jonasw (although that still needs E2E)
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  320. Ge0rG jonasw: the only secure way to make trusted identities is to route-to-publickeys, like Tor and similar.
  321. jonasw yeah, I do not see that happen with XMPP
  322. Tobias you can perfectly use XMPP with onion domains
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  324. Ge0rG Tobias: that's completely orthogonal.
  325. Ge0rG Tobias: unless you want each user to run their own .onion xmpp server.
  326. Tobias right
  327. jonasw why not! that also gives us client-chosen identifiers in JIDs! :>
  328. Ge0rG jonasw: was it jonasw@6HbHXvQ00HcXJMWYlC5lpeU5.onion or jonasw@hC19YDLyWPC6jAFVQDlH78Lf.onion again?
  329. jonasw distributed name services!
  330. jonasw also, you would know, because your client lets you choose by public key (including meta information), not by .onion address
  331. Ge0rG Zooko called, and he wants his triangle back.
  332. Ge0rG jonasw: so I'd choose by "6HbHXvQ00HcXJMWYlC5lpeU5" vs "hC19YDLyWPC6jAFVQDlH78Lf"?
  333. jonasw no, the key with title "Jonas Wielicki" you signed when we met at CLT 2017 ;-)
  334. Ge0rG meta information can be faked.
  335. Ge0rG jonasw: but we never met at CLT 2017.
  336. jonasw now that’s tricky
  337. jonasw ;-)
  338. Tobias if we get the lookup/bootstrapping problem solved it doesn't matter how cryptic the JID looks :)
  339. Ge0rG exchanging xmpp addresses is hard enough already without routing-by-publickey
  340. Ge0rG Tobias: are we putting a pubkey-routed overlay network on top of xmpp now?
  341. Tobias I'm certainly not
  342. Tobias put you probably could do serverless XMPP via DHT discovered endpoints :)
  343. Tobias everything is supposed to be serverless nowadays anyways ;)
  344. Ge0rG Tobias: right. or serverless xmpp on .onion domains, to reuse existing tech
  345. jonasw i wanted to implement serverless for fun anyways
  346. Tobias still have the bootstrapping/contact lookup problem though
  347. Ge0rG Tobias: QR codes printed with your blood onto calfskin.
  348. Ge0rG the blood provides a strong binding to your identity, via DNA
  349. Ge0rG maybe there is even some way to cryptographically hash your DNA info to make a truly-personal keypair.
  350. Tobias Ge0rG, people get cloned, then what?
  351. Ge0rG Tobias: only a large government service is able to clone people. This attack vector can be safely ignored for normal people.
  352. Tobias they cloned dolly in the 90s, didn't they..must be dead cheap by now
  353. Ge0rG Tobias: I hope you didn't intend to make that a tasteless pun. :D
  354. Tobias at first not, but now that i reread that message :)
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  357. jonasw :D
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  400. Tobias nyco, https://mongoose-os.com/ is not related to mongoose XMPP server, is it?
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  418. nyco Nope ;-)
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