XSF Discussion - 2017-03-07

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  371. SamWhited This is kind of nifty if true: https://twitter.com/Midar3/status/839059229289943041
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  374. SamWhited (TL;DR — libstrophe is listed in the Nintendo Switch's open source license credits)
  375. jonasw libstrophe. nice :)
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  378. Ge0rG and somebody didn't bother enough to rotate that picture.
  379. Tobias heh
  380. jonasw Ge0rG: you can rotate your screen, can’t you :P
  381. Ge0rG jonasw: I tried, but it turned out to be attached to the laptop body.
  382. jonasw xrandr --output $OUTPUT --rotate left
  383. Ge0rG alternative version: I did rotate it, but then the desktop manager autorotated it back.
  384. SamWhited Tangentially related: I didn't realize Jack Moffitt worked for Mozilla or was in charge of Servo these days; that's fantastic. I wish he'd revamp libstrophe in Rust.
  385. SamWhited or maybe I did realize that, since I apparently follow him on a bunch of Rust stuff, but didn't realize he was the same person who wrote libstrophe.
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  387. Tobias SamWhited, similar thing with some of Cisco's original jabber devs :)
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  389. Zash I wouldn't really expect Mozilla to do anything with XMPP.
  390. Tobias they probably went there for non-XMPP related things
  391. SamWhited yah, I once got asked at a conference by someone on the Hello team (or whatever that short lived firefox messenger was) what the point of XMPP or using standards was; I dunno about the rest of Mozilla, but I more or less gave up on the Firefox team then and there.
  392. Tobias Zash, although they should do more with it
  393. jonasw SamWhited: wtf
  394. SamWhited I think his exact words were "why would anyone bother using standards?"
  395. jonasw wtf
  396. jonasw have they even SEEN internet explorer?
  397. SamWhited Granted, I doubt he's representative of the rest of the Firefox people given their involvement with all things web-standards related; maybe that was just the Hello team.
  398. Tobias jonasw, come on...with web assembler you can finnally render your IE6 pages they way they are supposed to look on every platform :)
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  400. jonasw Tobias: you make me sad.
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  404. Zash I wonder if they still remember that "The Internet" does not equal "The Web"
  405. Zash SamWhited: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/#principle-06
  406. SamWhited Zash: Hah, I should have just pointed him at that; thanks.
  407. jonasw gahaha
  408. jonasw slap ’em in the face with that manifesto
  409. Tobias Zash, nah...just use Hello
  410. jonasw those are the same people who didn’t fight (enough) against WebDRM
  411. SamWhited They fought a lot, they just didn't win.
  412. Tobias Zash, or allo https://twitter.com/burnflare/status/838966485011685376 :)
  413. SamWhited I don't think it's fair to say they didn't fight enough; they were against it all the way through.
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  417. jonasw SamWhited: okay
  418. jonasw I admit I haven’t followed it in detail, but what I saw from news coverage it didn’t seem too great.
  419. arc wow, i am just now realizing how much work there is to be done
  420. arc anyone here touched xml regex?
  421. Tobias XML regex?
  422. arc yes
  423. Zash arc: Wait for it
  424. jonasw what the heck is XML regex
  425. Zash prepares for the obligatory Zalgo reference
  426. SamWhited I'm about to have to flip my table, aren't I?
  427. arc http://www.xmlschemareference.com/regularExpression.html
  428. jonasw https://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454/1248008
  429. Tobias SamWhited, oh you have some of those new flipping desks
  430. jonasw SamWhited: relevant for tableflip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob7V_WtAVg
  431. arc its a method to constrain acceptable string values within xml
  432. SamWhited Tobias: Nah, they went for the sit-stand ones, but wouldn't spring for the flipping ones
  433. jonasw arc: seems like a regex variant used by XML?
  434. arc im still reading into it, but yes. thankfully its a simplified variant
  435. arc EXI uses it for strings.
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  437. Zash Why and where?
  438. arc all strings.
  439. arc CH notably
  440. arc without it, an unconstrained string in the schema is transmitted as an unsigned int per char representing the unicode codepoint. no UTF-8
  441. Zash Shouldn't most strings fit in either enums or user-provided strings with no restrictions?
  442. arc oh yes. but you'd be insane to do so
  443. Zash Whta
  444. Zash No UTF-8?
  445. arc no UTF-8
  447. arc not as far as ive found. admittedly ive just started
  448. arc that was my gut reaction too. however the more i read into this, the more i understand why.
  449. jonasw why would one want to do that?
  450. SamWhited > representing the unicode codepoint
  451. SamWhited Yup, now my desk and things are all over the floor. Saw it coming.
  452. Zash So, UTF-32
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  454. jonasw SamWhited: did you do it with the excellent stare of Alan Rickman?
  455. arc ... yes. but as i said, you'd be insane to not use the regex to restrict the character map
  456. SamWhited jonasw: No, I am nowhere near that fantastic; that was amazing.
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  458. jonasw arc: so assuming this is used for standard desktop clients, I either have to restrict what codepoints users can use or the text is blown up to factor two to four of the bytes needed with UTF-8?
  459. arc unfortunetly the EXI spec doesn't go into deep detail on this, it refers to other documentation on xml regex, but it appears with bitpacked encoding you can compress it down a lot better than UTF-8
  460. arc jonasw: nope. you can craft a method to support the entire breadth of unicode in a much tighter format than UTF-8 because you're no longer constrained to byte boundaries.
  461. jonasw mhm
  462. Zash Like, huffman code
  463. arc i wouldn't go that far with it.
  464. arc im trying to track down whether a codepoint can represent multi-character sequences now.
  465. arc i would not be suprised.
  466. arc unlike using DEFLATE tho, this would not be dynamic, but encoded as part of the schema.
  467. SamWhited Define "multi-character sequences?"
  468. arc i mean, you could allocate the values 128-255 to represent the 127 most common words in the english language
  469. arc i do not know if this is true yet or not.
  470. Zash Well, Hangul?
  471. SamWhited You could probably do that, you won't be able to do that for all languages though
  472. arc ive only been reading into this for the past 2 hours.
  473. SamWhited Not without canonicalizing inputs first
  474. jonasw SamWhited: but as far as I understand it, your client could choose a schema specialised for the locale you’re using
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  476. arc SamWhited: since the client dictates the schema, the client could adjust this per selected language for the user
  477. jonasw wee, I understood EXI \o/
  478. arc also, there's nothing stopping you from using 9 bits
  479. arc im just commenting that we have a shortcoming in the XEP schemas. strings can and should be validated
  480. arc also this could be extremely useful for client-side data forms validation
  481. SamWhited But let's say one of those words is "café"; is that caf + Unicode character LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE (U+00E9) or cafe + Unicode character COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT (U+0301)?
  482. Zash Are there really strings that are not logically enums, while being user controlled?
  483. arc before 8:30am this morning i wasnt aware that XML regex even existed, so my understanding is still very crude, and further what subset of this applies to EXI
  484. SamWhited Unicode provides ways to do canonicalization of things like that, you'd just have to make sure you were doing it before building the string table and to any words you compare against the string table
  485. arc SamWhited: *IF* this supports multi-character sequences, and not simply constraining which unicode codepoints are acceptable in regex format, then its whatever is defined in the schema. but this is entirely separate from the string table provided by EXI.
  486. Zash That way lies madness
  487. Zash points in the general direction of Unicode
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  491. SamWhited Oh, I thought this had something to do with the string table. Either way, if you're searching for things, you'll need to do canonicalization too if you want to actually find things (since the same thing may be encoded differently on different machines, but be the same as far as the user is concerned)
  492. arc SamWhited: yes, on the machine side this is evaluated to a unicode codepoint per character in any case.
  493. arc goodbye char*
  494. arc goodbye stdlib
  495. arc goodnight #import "string.h"
  496. jonasw hey, were will I get my memset from, arc? ;)
  497. arc jonasw: heh
  498. Zash jonasw: dd in=/dev/mem of=/dev/mem start=x count=y
  499. Zash or was it seek=
  500. jonasw *blink*
  501. jonasw I’m done for today.
  502. arc LOL
  503. jonasw Zash: also, that’s memcpy, not memset.
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  518. arc Ok I'm now officially over G+
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  521. arc having the alert bubble show a new message while on a google search, and see people arguing implied consent for sexual penetration by the TSA by their choice to fly... break time.
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  523. jonasw wat
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  528. arc https://plus.google.com/+JohnWarthog9Hawley/posts/LEvErfQnajc
  529. Zash off topic much?
  530. arc that's the problem with G+
  531. arc it shows up in google searches for unrelated things.
  532. Tobias i'm sure that's not standard behavior
  533. arc anyway. yes im starting to suspect that the way this works, multi-character sequences can be implied, but it might be even more devious. more like a smartphone dictionary predictor
  534. arc if you have both the letter "c" and a number of whole words that "c" could be grouped properly, you could resolve whole words in a minimum number of bits. and that can be optimized by the client in the chosen schema
  535. jonasw arc: so basically the string is encoded by the states of a regex automaton which gets the string fed as input?
  536. arc I think so.
  537. arc actually i should go back to what i did in the early days with this work, grab the reference implementation and try some things on it, then read the bits
  538. jonasw clever and devious at the same time
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  540. arc you might even be able to, if you are very clever, recreate UTF-8 using an XML regex.
  541. arc that's not even work, that'd be pure joy for some weekend.
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  543. Zash Wat
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  547. arc well remember that the top bit of UTF-8 determines whether its a 1-byte or multi-byte sequence. and if the first byte has bit 128 set, then the next byte will have the top two bits set appropriately to show a continuation, etc
  548. arc if you are very very clever, and if this works the way im starting to understand, then you could build a regex that recreates UTF-8 precisely such that the string value encoded by EXI would be precisely UTF-8
  549. arc such that if you encoded EXI byte-aligned, and you read the raw stream, you would find the UTF-8 encoded strings within
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  560. arc it might not be possible but im fairly certain it is, because the bits in UTF-8 are always meaningful, you would just have to nest your atoms appropriately.
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  564. arc but UTF-8 encoding is a hack for ascii backwards compatibility, i believe in almost every case you could craft a better one. which is kind of cool if you think about it, even with a limited dictionary, Zipf's Law will ensure extremely tight compression, and without the encryption concerns
  565. arc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCn8zs912OE
  566. Zash Out of all Unicode related things, UTF-8 is the last thing I'd complain about
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  569. arc oh im not complaining about UTF-8. i love UTF-8. but I can see now why UTF-32 was acceptable.
  570. Zash Why not UTF-64? Surely it'll be more efficient on modern machines ;)
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  572. arc heh
  573. arc i think actually most uses of this would be about as fast as UTF-8 decoding
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  607. arc a very simple regex could be something like """[\p{BasicLatin}|(he)|(se)|(re)|(hat)|.]*"""
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  609. arc EXI usually follows schema semantics literally, so i would assume 3 bits would be used to determine whether its a chr(0:127), one of the four provided common word segments, or a full unicode character
  610. arc "The" would be then be encoded as "000 1010100 001"
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