subscription request rejections are broadcasted to other resources, right?
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jonasw
Tobias: hmm, I cannot find that in RFC 6121. There is only (in section 3.2.3):
The contact's server then MUST send a roster push with the updated
roster item to all of the contact's interested resources, where the
subscription state is now either "none" or "to" (see Appendix A).
CS: <iq id='pw3f2v175b34'
to='juliet@example.com/balcony'
type='set'>
<query xmlns='jabber:iq:roster'>
<item jid='romeo@example.net'
subscription='none'/>
</query>
</iq>
CS: <iq id='zu2y3f571v35'
to='juliet@example.com/chamber'
type='set'>
<query xmlns='jabber:iq:roster'>
<item jid='romeo@example.net'
subscription='none'/>
</query>
</iq>
and that doesn’t apply for un-approved contacts because of:
Security Warning: Until and unless the contact approves the
subscription request as described under Section 3.1.4, the
contact's server MUST NOT add an item for the user to the
contact's roster.
in section 3.1.3
jonasw
I may be overlooking something but it seems as if this isn’t broadcast.
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jonasw
there is nothing about broadcasting the <presence type="unsubscribed"/> to other resources
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Tobias
hmm..feels strange to distribute the request to all resources, but not the response
jonasw
could be an oversight
daniel
Yes this actually leads to undesired effects when I can't dismiss the notification on the other device
daniel
But yes I noticed that before as well
Tobias
wonder what could be a possible workaround for that
Tobias
carbons obviously does only deal with messages
daniel
That's probably something that should just be fixed at one point or another in the protocol
Ge0rG
do we have some kind of tracker for "the RFC needs to be amended in the next revision"?
Ge0rG
Probably PSA used to know.
Tobias
don't we have a wiki page for that?
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Ge0rG
this one? https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP_and_RFC_Remarks/RFC_6121:_XMPP-IM
Ge0rG
the only page with the title containing "6121"
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Ge0rG
Tobias or daniel: can one of you specify what's exactly going wrong and how it can be fixed, in that page?
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Tobias
Ge0rG, i can write the issue down on that page, yes
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Ge0rG
Tobias: thanks
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Arc
ok so lets see who shows up early or late today
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Guus
dst?
Guus
(must die!)
Flow
Tobias, daniel: Isn't the roster push sufficient?
Tobias
Flow, if you add the contact yes, but not if you reject the subscription request
Tobias
there's no way to tell your other resources that one has rejected it
Flow
ahh, the contact is not added as pending to the roster
Tobias
right...the usual subscription spam scenario :)
Flow
so someone should write a xep with a stream future subscription-rejection-broadcasts which clients can negotiate, no?
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Zash
presence-carbons? :)
Flow
or, hmm, not sure, maybe part of bind2?
Flow
or just wait for XMPP 2.0
Zash
bind2 sorta seems like XMPP 2.0
Flow
hmm I thought in XMPP 2.0 we would get rid of priorties
Flow
or is there any current use case for priorities?
Zash
There are probably non-IM use cases
SamWhited
I forgot priorities were a thing… again.
Flow
hmm priority based balanced round-robin fan out
Flow
I think I wrote a xep about that
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dwd
Could do a roster:2 which does all this by storing roster events in a pair of PEP nodes.
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dwd
(We discussed roster:2 in San José a few years back)
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Arc
Guus: well our board meetings are UTC, thankfully. before it was british time, which is different daylight savings than everyone else so we switched 4 times a year.
Arc
it should be 1700 UTC. so its an hour later today than last week, the question is out of the 5 of us who will show up an hour early expecting a meeting ;-)
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Kev
Arc: Well, no, British DST is the same as almost everyone else except the US ;)
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dwd
Kev, For another two years. Then, finally free of the shackles of the EU, we shall be able to select our own DST dates!
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dwd
Surely this is why we voted to take back control.
Arc
Kev: except 2 states in the US that don't do DST like reasonable people
Arc
when I run for house in Oregon, i'll introduce a bill to eliminate DST there too.
dwd
Arc, I didn't think it had managed to be state-wide; I thought there were states were it split along county lines.
Arc
except """Arizona (except for the Navajo, who do observe daylight saving time on tribal lands), Hawaii, and the overseas territories of American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the United States Virgin Islands."""
Arc
there's bills in 3 states right now to kill DST
Arc
its a populist position right now, nobody likes DST.
Arc
auspiciously it was created for farmers or industry workers, but its been shown to hurt productivity for both
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dwd
Arc, no, it's for golfers.
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jonasw
let’s make it UTC everywhere.
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MattJ
+1
jonasw
MattJ: for you it would be like simply abolishing DST, right? people here always complain when I suggest UTC.
MattJ
I used to keep my watch, when I wore one, in UTC year-round
MattJ
I did it a couple of years on my laptop, but it had too many interesting consequences
MattJ
so I don't bother any more
jonasw
hm, I had a UTC clock around me until I figured out that having irssi update the clock once per second via wifi can actually be seen on battery drainage :(
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nyco
hi all
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jonasw
hi nyco
Arc
hey nyco
Arc
nyco arrived on time!
Arc
MattJ: you here?
Arc
ralphm: ?
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ralphm
I will be in 5 minutes :-D
nyco
always here but not really, but still...
Arc
holy crap we have quorum on a DST meeting
Arc
huzzah!
Arc
Martin: you here?
Martin
I am.
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MattJ
Hey
ralphm
Arc: well, I expected no less. Except possibly you :-D
MattJ
I'm going to be semi-here, I have another meeting that *was* unfortunately shifted by US DST
Depreciation of deprecated software on the website
ralphm
I was kinda expecting board members to respond.
nyco
Ge0rG, would be good, we kind of reached a rough consensus on what neutrality means, while at the Summit
Martin
Should we work through the "Items for discussion" on Trello? Or have we deprecated that.
Arc
executive director is a big one. software id like to get a vote on to move forward on it
MattJ
ralphm, the only thing missing afaics is sponsorship follow-up
Martin
Oh, wait, I'm out of sync, ignore me
Arc
and due to PSA's resignation we really need to discuss the other roles he held such as liasons
dwd
I don't *think* he had any roles left aside from ED and Treasurer.
jonasw
Ge0rG: +1
Arc
dwd: some people believe he held liason positions to IETF and ISO, at least.
ralphm
dwd: right
Arc
i'd have to look back through the minutes on those tho
nyco
dwd, hidden/implicit roles, like community leader in the most noble sense?
ralphm
We don't have a liason to IETF, we are the IETF
ralphm
(and other people)
dwd
Arc, we have no formal liaison to the IETF; never had. We do have several XSF members who are active within the IETF too, though.
Arc
ok.
ralphm
Anyway, still at Agenda
Zash
( I believe the IETF to actually be a sort of ongoing event organized by the IAB or ISOC, not an organization )
ralphm
Thanks Zash
Arc
in any case i think those two are more than enough for the next 20 mins
dwd
Zash, It's an "activity" of the ISoC, indeed.
ralphm
Ok, let's go
ralphm
1. XSF Officers
ralphm
So, our bylaws state that the Board will have an Annual Meeting to appoint officers
ralphm
This includes the EO, but also the Secretary and Treasurer.
Arc
and we haven't done that yet this year.
dwd
(And the Chair)
ralphm
dwd: sure, but I guess we did do that already
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dwd
ralphm, Yup. It's daft to try and do the other Officers when you pick a Chair, though.
Arc
ok so we put a call out for volunteers? or does someone have someone in mind? or should we seek an experienced EO from outside the community
Arc
outside the xmpp community i mean
ralphm
So, I think that Alex has to announce this Annual Meeting as per 5.5 of the bylaws
ralphm
And before we do that, we should indeed look for candidates
nyco
what's EO?
Arc
executive officer
ralphm
Executive Officer
nyco
thx
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ralphm
Bylaws call it CEO
Arc
since we only have one, (s)he is by default the CEO ;-)
dwd
(And Executive Director, in equal measure. Hmmmm)
ralphm
Since Peter has been EO for as long as can remember, it will be hard to fill those shoes as he filled them.
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ralphm
As a role, though, we should be able to find someone to take it up
dwd
"Unless provided otherwise by a resolution adopted by the Board of Directors, the Executive Director shall be the Chief Executive Officer of the Corporation" (§6.6) but the position is "Executive Director" normally.
Arc
many foundations go quite awhile without an EO, searching for the right fit
dwd
So "EO" is rather confusing - either ED or CEO, please - and I think you guys mean ED.
ralphm
I don't have a particular preference for in- or outside of the community, but having some knowledge of the technology would be good, I believe
Arc
dwd: CEO.
ralphm
dwd: thanks for that
dwd
Arc, I mean: These two are different positions, though the CEO is normally the ED.
nyco
ok, so who?... ;-)
Arc
If we have a CEO, we should have one with CEO experience - but who at least knows what XMPP is before we approach them. But I also don't feel strongly that we need an officer position at the moment.
ralphm
So let's all think hard on how we want to find a candidate
Arc
a bad or ineffective CEO is worse than none.
jonasw
^
ralphm
In the meanwhile, we should ask the current Officers if they want to resume their position for another year.
dwd
Arc, The bylaws seem to suggest the position of ED must be filled, and that the CEO role must be filled (and by the ED by default), so...
Arc
dwd: lazywebbing, can the ED be the chair?
Kev
I note that Peter suggested he was interested in working with the Board on finding a replacement, didn't he?
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Kev
Perhaps including him in the discussion would not be stupid, as he has a better idea than anyone else what he's done in that role over the yeras.
Kev
And over the years.
ralphm
Indeed
dwd
Arc, Unclear. We have had the same person hold multiple officer positions for some time, though.
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ralphm
I'd be happy to take that up with Peter and see how we can start going about this.
Kev
I believe Peter's had a policy of not being on Board because of his ED role, FWIW.
Arc
+1 to ralph
ralphm
Well, the ED actually is another Director, and will be the deciding voice in case of a tie.
ralphm
(when voting on matters)
Arc
ralphm: that sounds like a way to proceed; discuss this with PSA about how we can start going about this
ralphm
Ok
Arc
6 minutes remain
dwd
I think that when Peter started handing over the Editor role, he wrote up a job description.
dwd
That would seem an excellent start.
ralphm
Then I motion that Board thanks Peter for huge amount of work he has done as ED and inspiration he's brought to community.
Arc
+1
Kev
The peanut gallery wishes to support the motion.
Martin
Hear hear
MattJ
+1
ralphm
Arc: thanks for the reminder
ralphm
2. Deprecation of deprecated software
ralphm
How do we commence this?
Arc
a suggestion has been made by a few members on this
ralphm
There's been a lot of talk already. We just need to have people doing this now.
jonasw
I can comment on what I did to the website.
jonasw
(with respect to that)
Tobias
get lazy folks of the iTeam review the stuff that's already in PR and have it work
Arc
we ask council, by the end of this year, to draft a 2018 recommended list XEP as they've done in previous years to be published early next year
nyco
get a rough consensus on the criteria
nyco
non-binary criteria, as we showed during the summit
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dwd
nyco, I didn't notice your vote on ralphm's motion back there - need something for the mintues.
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nyco
+1
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dwd
nyco, Ta!
nyco
that was implicit
nyco
sorry ;-)
Arc
and that for now, this year, we simply send out an announcement to the project maintainers for software currently on the website to apply, and include that in the Q2 or Q3 vote
Tobias
jonasw, will do a full review of your PR this evening and will try getting it working on the website
nyco
and we should offer him a teddy bear
jonasw
Tobias: that’d be great. that would at least give us semi-automatic expiry.
dwd
nyco, Bruno?
nyco
why not ;-)
Ge0rG
Arc: can we please send out an announcement right now and remove everything that does not reapply in a month?
Arc
or, until we have a more formal process, informally ask the project maintainers to put in a PR like someone suggested, and that be that.
Arc
Ge0rG: that's what I would like to do, yes.
Kev
I think the idea of just requiring a maintainer to 'ping' to keep their project listed each year is pragmatic and non-contentious.
Ge0rG
Arc: that's completely orthogonal to compliance suite 2017 / 2018
Kev
And, crucially, solves the problem at hand without boiling the ocean.
MattJ
+1
ralphm
Ok
Ge0rG
I volunteer to send the mail
Arc
maybe create a branch on the website github for the projects, remove all software from that branch, and ask that the post a PR against that branch, merging it in next month.
Tobias
Ge0rG, i suggest doing that as soon as we know that the implementation works and is deployed on the website
jonasw
Tobias: from what I can tell, it is already merged to master.
jonasw
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/data this at least looks like a lot like what I put in my PR.
Tobias
jonasw, right...but last i heard it wasn't deployed on the live website :)
Tobias
will figure that out today
ralphm
So does Kev's suggestion require that we contact all projects individually, or is a notice on jdev and standards sufficient?
Arc
is this a motion we want to vote on?
nyco
we can keep all mentionend software as a hall of History... or good services in the past centuries... so another page?
Kev
ralphm: I'd say that a post on jdev/standards/members, plus a note on the page about how it's generated would be more than sufficient.
jonasw
nyco: I would not make it easily discoverable. Users have a talent to find the information they’re not supposed to find for their own good.
Ge0rG
ralphm: jdev and the blog, I'd suggest
jonasw
Ge0rG: +standards
ralphm
I like Kev's idea. Who else?
nyco
jonasw, well yeah ok ;-)
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jonasw
(I do, but I don’t have a vote in this meeting :-))
Arc
I think thats a fine idea.
Arc
+1
Kev
I wouldn't mind an AOB on website ownership, at the end (it's quick, I just want to raise a point for future discussion)
nyco
+1
Martin
+1
ralphm
Ok, I see Ge0rG has suggested to draft a message
ralphm
Can you send that draft to board@?
Ge0rG
ralphm: wilco
ralphm
Thanks
ralphm
3. EOB
ralphm
3. AOB
SamWhited
ralphm: Can you create me an "Editor Team" trello under the XSF team?
ralphm
Kev quickly
ralphm
SamWhited: I'll see what I can do
SamWhited
(sort of board AOB, sort of personal; we can chat after)
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Kev
ralphm: And I'd like to have (iteam hat on) some admin over the org please.
Kev
Right, website ownership.
Kev
I'd like to note that the website currently has no clear owner - once upon a time there was a working, although not perfect, website.
Kev
Then there was a Board-led initiative to replace it, which happened, and Board ultimately instructed iteam to deploy it before iteam were comfortable with this.
ralphm
I'd be happy to say that iteam "owns" the website
Tobias
i thought content wise the XSF owns the site
Tobias
*copyright wise
ralphm
Tobias: of course
dwd
"owns" in what sense? Software, content?
dwd
Or "has final say"?
nyco
the latter?
ralphm
I think the board is about content, iteam about the mechanics
Kev
Now, iteam clearly don't own (responsibility for) the content on the website, as that's unrelated to infrastructure, so I think this means it defaults to Board. But at the same time, when there's stuff submitted to the site that actually runs on the server, iteam should have some say, but ... there's a mess here at the moment, brought to light by Tobi saying iteam were being lazy for not fixing stuff that wasn't theirs in the first place.
ralphm
Kev: indeed
dwd
As an aside, it's a bit of a mystery why the website generation needs to run on the webserver. But still, this might be my ignorance at play.
Kev
So 1) I'd like a bit more explicit statement of who is responsible for reviewing and merging content changes to the website. 2) I'd like this to include iteam review where it means running stuff on the server.
ralphm
I think it is fine for iteam to assume control over how the website works, is generated, etc.
Kev
dwd: It shouldn't. This is just an artefact of what's been somewhat thrust upon us :)
jonasw
FWIW, this can be enforced with github I think
Tobias
dwd, it doesn't have to, it can also run in your dockerized blockchain or your blockerized docker
dwd
Tobias, So some PRs etc to do this would alleviate Kev's problems entirely?
jonasw
it’s not that simple.
Tobias
the website consists of many parts, the pelican web content, XEPs, registries, etc.
Tobias
and soon also the auto generated client software lists
Kev
I wasn't looking for answers now, I just wanted to bring it to people's attention for future discussion.
ralphm
Ok. I thought this was an easy topic. But I see we need some more thinking on this.
dwd
Kev, I think there seem to be two issues:
Arc
we are T-11 minutes. shall we table and put this on the agenda for next week?
Kev
dwd: At least.
dwd
Kev, 1) iteam need to have ownership of code running on the servers.
ralphm
Arc: yeah, that was my feeling, too
dwd
Kev, 2) The website should minimize the amount of code running on the servers.
ralphm
Let's continue this discussion after formal close
Kev
Arc: I have no need for further discussion right now.
Arc
Kev: this is important tho, thanks for bringing it to the table
ralphm
4 Date of Next
Arc
+1W
ralphm
5. Close
ralphm
Thanks all!
jonasw
Kev: FWIW, I built a setup for another organisation where content and pelican-stuff for generation was separate.
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jonasw
that would allow to place strict requirements on merges to the generation code and less-strict requirements to merges on the content
jonasw
taking some load off iteam with reviewing stuff
Tobias
jonasw, i'll get back to you later today to ask some questions about that then
bear
running the website generation code on the server was a default thing - the default was that it was already doing it
Kev
jonasw: Yes, that would be the perfect situation.
bear
having it run as part of the build process is easy to implement
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Kev
And a wild bear appears.
Tobias
bear, btw: some people in the XSF asked if they could get access to the twitter credentials
Tobias
i think Kev asked that once
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dwd
jonasw, bear - I think moving the generation off the webserver would alleviate muhc of Kev's concerns, and just seems the Right Thing to do anyway.
Kev
bear: Yes, I'd like (iteam hat) to have the credentials, please.
bear
I can add folks to the twitter group user thingy if they get me a list of IDs and the board nods at me
jonasw
dwd: where would you put the generation then?
ralphmbangs gavel
Kev
(As opposed to tweetdeck access to actually tweet stuff)
jonasw
Kev, Tobias, it’s those two + a non-published build.py web-hook thing which I can also pastebin you somewhere.
https://github.com/fsfw-dresden/homepage-2.0-build
https://github.com/fsfw-dresden/homepage-2.0-content
dwd
jonasw, A docker image? Travis?
ralphm
Wow latency
jonasw
dwd: I wouldn’t like to have travis build my website, but that’s a matter of taste.
bear
the build would be done on circleci as part of the deploy step
dwd
jonasw, I'm demanding solutions, not offering them. ;-)
bear: Thanks muchly. RO in my homedir on perseus or similar seems sensible. Although XMPP between private servers works just as well.
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Tobias
also, did the recent months of increased twittering helped with our number of followers?
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jonasw
Kev, Tobias: re the repositories, one should note that the Makefile is not the default pelican makefile, we made some adjustments to make it work with a non-default "content" directory (so that we could build multiple branches without having to mess with the content submodule)
Tobias
jonasw, one step at a time :) on feel free to create a list of issues :)
jonasw
I can drop an issue with random notes on the subject, sure
ralphm
dwd: why?
dwd
ralphm, Why what?
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ralphm
Why gasp
dwd
ralphm, I didn't notice you'd changed it beforehand. Is this purely to disprove my assertion that nobody remembers to change the subject?