Kev, dwd, FWIW, I think the use of namespaced attributes there is very elegant and in the spirit of XML.
jonasw
dwd: re 'It's useful to have a device-specific token which can then be managed and/or revoked, independent of ISR':
that kind of thing exists, it’s used with SASL EXTERNAL and called a Client Certificate ;-)
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Kev
It might be in the spirit of XML, but it's not in the spirit of XMPP, and I'd say that's more important in this case.
jonasw
what’s the spirit of XMPP in that regard?
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Kev
Not to use namespaced attributes.
Kev
And to use namespaced child elements instead.
jonasw
would probably work equally well
Guus
I don't think that I've ever seen a namespaced attribute being used in the wild. xml:ns, if that counts, perhaps.
jonasw
Guus: there are XML-based templating which use namespaced attributes to do magic
oh, I'm not arguing that you _can_ use them. i'm just observing that I don't recall ever working with them.
Guus
ah, yeah, good old JSTL does use some.
Guus
(actually, no, it doesn't I think - what I was thinking of are all namespaced elements)
Guus
point being: we can use them, but if there's no urgent need, why break a familiar pattern of not having them?
jonasw
I also still wonder which XML implementations there are out there which do not support XML Namespaces and which are actually used for XMPP.
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jonasw
the ejabberd implementation was one of them (at least three years ago)
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Zash
All the regex ones you don't wanna know about.
jonasw
right, nginx is probably one
Zash
That's not even regex
jonasw
it’s a finite state machine IIRC
jonasw
pretty much regex
Zash
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3907
jonasw
;P
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dwd
Our security guy is telling me there's a vulnerability in libpurple, for any folks using Adium or Pidgin.
jonasw
jus tone?
jonasw
*just one?
Zash
What else is new?
dwd
Well, this one has been fixed.
Zash
CVE?
intosi
I'm sure a new release of Adium will happen in about a year.
Zash
Is it CVE-2017-2640? Or something newer?
dwd
intosi, Aparently there is an update already.
Ge0rG
https://twitter.com/bbhorne/status/681832517096370176 "Libpurple is basically a flock a zero days flying in formation." - @ioerror #32c3
Bunneh
Ge0rG: Minor clarifications to XEP-0198 #32
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/32
Ge0rG
Bunneh: no!
Zash
lol Bunneh
Guus
harharhar
intosi
Bad Bunneh!
jonasw
hrhr
jonasw
seriously though, CVE?
dwd
It wasn't on our internal thing. I've asked.
intosi
dwd: don't seen anything newer than 1.5.10.2 (03/09/2016 [sic])
jonasw
can’t find anything on oss-security :/
dwd
(Internal thing: custom UI on top of Buddycloud which acts as our internal social network. Given we're ditching it at some point, I should suggest this gets put out as Open Source as thrown-over-the-wall).
dwd
It is indeed CVE-2017-2640
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jonasw
why the heck do they decode entities at all?!
mimi89999
What apps are vulnerable? Only Pidgin and Adium?
jonasw
mimi89999: anything using libpurple probably.
jonasw
this notably includes spectrum
dwd
jonasw, Most XML libraries decode entities as a matter of course.
jonasw
yes but why do they have their own entity decoding code then?
jonasw
(also, not if you’re using SAX, which makes sense for XMPP anyways)
dwd
jonasw, Oh, I've not read the CVE. It's obviously more stupid than I thought.
jonasw
that’s the fix: https://bitbucket.org/pidgin/main/commits/b2fc9e774cb9
jonasw
I haven’t looked deeply into it, but it contains entity processing.
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dwd
That's weird.
jonasw
erm
jonasw
another question
jonasw
nevermind
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MattJ
jonasw, we use expat (SAX) and it decodes entities for us
jonasw
MattJ: with expat + sax I get a callback on entities which I use to raise an exception to kill the stream.
no, yes, it calls startEntity for those; I explicitly white-listed those
Zash
Wha
Kev
Even in attributes?
jonasw
let me write at test for that!
Kev
I'm surprised that e.g. & in an attribute would generate a callback, but it's not impossible.
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jonasw
expat actually does that
jonasw
but the callback only fires when the entity is known to expat
jonasw
so if you try to use ü, it will reject that before startEntity is called
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dwd
More importantly than all of this, my children have informed me that "Woof" in Welsh is "Wŵff", which fills me with unaccountable glee.
jonasw
I haven’t even the slightest idea how to pronounce that.
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Kev
jonasw: "woof". Basically.
Ge0rG
dwd: because it allows one to use Combining Diacritical Marks?
Guus
vowels are overrated.
Kev
Guus: Welsh loves vowels. It loves them so much it invented more.
Guus
classic overcompensation.
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Guus
Alex: is there / can you create an ics that I can subscribe to, with relevant XSF events (membership meetings primarily, but perhaps board and council meetings too)? I'm always struggling to get the time zone correct in Google's Calendar
dwd
Guus, I think Tobias did something. It might even work again.
Guus
Tobias: is there / can you create an ics that I can subscribe to, with relevant XSF events (membership meetings primarily, but perhaps board and council meetings too)? I'm always struggling to get the time zone correct in Google's Calendar
Guus
(upcoming DST for Europe is going to be yet another source of pain...)
Tobias
i see if i can revive that
Guus
Thanks
Alex
Guus: I have suggested something like Google CAL a while ago. I don't know who has access and manages the current calendars right now. I don't think I have write access to them right now.
Guus
Alex: that'd also work for me. I was not aware that we have any calendars in the first place.
jonasw
speaking of which, when’s the next council meeting?
Ge0rG
tomorrow afternoon?
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Alex
there are ICS cals, not sure where the URIs for them are listed
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jonasw
isn’t that when board meeting takes place, Ge0rG?
Ge0rG
jonasw: could update-entry.py provide a diff view instead of a 2x raw view?
jonasw
Ge0rG: can do
Ge0rG
jonasw: no, those are on Wed evenings
jonasw
isn’t today tuesday?
Ge0rG
jonasw: yes?
jonasw
so council and board meetings are on the same day-of-week?
Ge0rG
jonasw: as far as I understood, yes.
Ge0rG
the council meeting is before the board meeting
jonasw
fascinating
Guus
There are some ICS files under http://xmpp.org/calendar/
Ge0rG
2017-03-08, 2017-03-15, I think there's a pattern
Guus
but those appear outdated
Alex
Guus: gives me a 404
Guus
http://xmpp.org/calendar/xsf-council.ics
Guus
(there's no listing)
Alex
yes, on the old website they were lined from a page
Guus
Tobias: where these the ones that you referred to?
Tobias
yes
Tobias
they used to be generated from XML. probably not the most user friendly
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Guus
given that they appear to stop working in 2014 ... perhaps explicitly delete them, and replace them by something else?
Guus
a Google Cal, as suggested by Alex, would do just fine for me
Ge0rG
dwd: it'd be nice if you could set your mark on https://trello.com/c/wF37u9DJ/169-vote-on-approve-xep-0045-changes-proposed-by-georg
Tobias
google calendar wfm
Guus
want me to create one?
Alex
+1
Guus
is there a XSF google account?
Tobias
Guus, good..question...i don't know
dwd
There was. I think we dropped it, but we used to have th XSF calendar on a Google account.
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dwd
Ge0rG, I did.
Zash
Pretend that you see the obligatory anti-google rant here.
Ge0rG
dwd: oh, sorry. You did it on the ML, it just wasn't updated in trello.
dwd
Ge0rG, Yes. FWIW, I'd love it if we formally voted on a webapp for the purpose, I don't think it's fair on the Editors to expect them to track the mailing list in this way.
Ge0rG
dwd: I'm not sure what is lacking to achieve that. Write access to trello?
dwd
Ge0rG, I'd prefer more than that, something like the IETF's datatracker.
Zash
What's the source of truth here?
dwd
Zash, The mailing list and/or council chatroom. Depending.
Ge0rG
Zash: there is no need in an authoritative source of truth if we assume that council members are well-behaving
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Ge0rG
dwd: it should be XMPP based!
Ge0rG
SCNR
jonasw
Ge0rG: will do when my update-manual feature branch is merged
Guus
I created a public calendar here: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com
could someone verify that it's behaving correctly please? This is the first time that I create a public calendar
Ge0rG
BTW, where are the rules codified how (and if) other people can participate in board/council meetings?
Guus
there's one event on it, on May 2nd (the member appl. meeting)
dwd
Ge0rG, They're not codified, but we have held both meetings in public by default for years now, and - while ultimately up to the chair - comments from the floor are normally welcomed.
Ge0rG
dwd: I've ran into a situation where I had the feeling of misbehaving multiple times already, when I only wanted to contribute to a (board) meeting.
Guus
I might have already messed up the time of that first meet, btw.
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Ge0rG
jonasw: I'd also suggest making the README a .md and not an .rst
jonasw
why, Ge0rG?
Ge0rG
jonasw: my gut feeling is that markdown has become more common among developers
mathieui
it’s also the worst markup language
mathieui
worse*
Zash
"worse is better"
jonasw
Ge0rG: does it matter?
SamWhited
It's fine except for the two spaces at the end of a line being a line break… that drives me nuts.
jonasw
it is readable in plain text, it renders fine on github; for me, rst is easier to write because I do it every day.
Zash
SamWhited: Thou shallt not have line breaks
jonasw
and thou shalt not have trailing spaces
jonasw
:-)
SamWhited
I would not mind getting rid of both of those, yah.
Ge0rG
jonasw: in .md, you could get syntax highlighting of the json in the readme by using ```json quotes
SamWhited
That's only a GitHub thing, FWIW
dwd
I may be the only person who doesn't care here. It's a wonderful feeling.
Ge0rG
jonasw: personally, I don't care much, just wondered about your choice being anti-popular
intosigrabs popcorn
mathieui
dwd, you’re not joining the holy war? heretic.
jonasw
Ge0rG: it’s because ~all docs for python are written in reStructuredText – and that’s what I do for most of my time.
Ge0rG
jonasw: I feel with you, a little bit.
jonasw
not sure what that’s supposed to mean :)
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Ge0rG
SamWhited: there are other markdown parsers that support syntax highlighting of quotes
Zash
SamWhited: No pandoc can do syntax highlighting too with that syntax.
Zash
Pandoc is the best
Ge0rG
Pandoc FTW!
Zash
SamWhited: A, comma also.
SamWhited
Pandoc is the best; it also supports several flavors of Markdown (yey no proper standard), including GitHub flavored MD, IIRC
dwd
SamWhited, "Flavoured".
dwdfinds a Holy War to join.
Ge0rG
I'm actually writing my CVEs in Pandoc and converting them to .doc for our "corporate" "processing pipeline".
SamWhited
dwd: Why don't you go drink some tea or something?
(I saw even though I have a cup of tea in front of me at this very moment :) )
SamWhited
say, even.
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dwd
SamWhited, If only you had a biscuit, you could apply to UK citizenship right away.
Ge0rG
Zash: we can't win the coffee-vs-tea war, it seems
intosi
nroff ftw
jonasw
dwd: if you want to fight *that* (gb vs. us) holy war, fix xep 143 (<https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#nt-idp1712848>) ;P
Ge0rG
dwd: what about the "flavor" thing above? re SamWhited's citizenship
Zash
pandoc can output troff, pandoc win again
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dwd
jonasw, The irony of that example is: http://grammarist.com/spelling/authorise-authorize/
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Zash
Whatever that page says is wrong.
jonasw
dwd: I fail to see the irony
dwd
jonasw, The Oxford English Dictionary, which usually favors British spellings, still lists authorize as the primary spelling
jonasw
ah, haven’t read that far :)
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Guus
board, council, could you volunteer at least one from yourself to have access to the shared calendar (and add your meetings there?)
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Guus
Tobias: might be good to explicitly delete the old ICS files.
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Tobias
it might, yes
Tobias
will do that in a moment
Guus
Tobias: please delete the old ICS files? :)
Kev
Guus: And I'd like admin on anything XSFish, please.
Guus
ok :)
Guus
Kev: gladly
Guus
I only need a google account for you, I think
Kev
Assuming PMs are enabled in here (I forget), I think I just sent you one :)
Guus
you did
Kev
\o/
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ralphm
Guus, the great thing about the old ICS files was that we had separate ones. I.e. one for board meetings, one for council, etc.
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Kev
Yes, but they're not updated now, so I'm fine with Guus trying to start something simpler that works instead of the previous better system that isn't used :)
Kev
(I prefer the old system in principle, too)
Guus
ralphm: if that's of value, we can split them up - I have no issue with that. But so far, we had many, many, unused calendars. :)
ralphm
Oh, fully agree, Kev. The terrible thing about the ICS files was that they were not being updated.
Tobias
and it's not comfortable to make a commit every week to update a simple date
Guus
Google should give you an easier interface for that
Tobias
maybe we can tag them in google and have a script that creates filtered ICS based on the one google outputs
Guus
I've just added a recurring weekly Council meeting (16:00 - 16:30 Reykjavik time, right?)
Tobias
it's 17:00 Berlin time
Guus
when is the board meeting?
Guus
Iceland does not do DST and is therefor UTC. :)
intosi
Guus: board meetings follow European UTC usually.
intosi
* DST
Tobias
Guus, ahh
SamWhited
Guus: That's too good; are you sure Iceland is a real place?
ralphm
Is that why Iceland is not joining the EU?
intosi
Iceland is a chain of stores.
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Guus
SamWhited: I think I recall a story from Arc in which he was locked up in its airport? :)
Zash
It's a trap?
Guus
Intosi: I'm happy to add the board and council meetings, but board and council should administer these meets themselves, ideally - if only to apply changes.
ralphm
Guus: what intosi said: peg the meetings to WE(S)T or CE(S)T
jonasw
"script" and "ics" doesn’t sound like a good combination
Kev
ralphm: Or London time, which is what they were traditionally pinned to :)
ralphm
WE(S)T is London time
Guus
guys, please give me a Google account so that you can do that yourselves :)
ralphm
ralphm.net
moparisthebest
What about a caldav server like nextcloud?
Kev
ralphm: I stand educated. Marginally :)
SamWhited
Guus: Can you add me so I can add editor meetings (not that those actually happen with any regularity)?
SamWhited
Google Account is the same as my JID
ralphm
Kev: that's rare. I'm savouring the moment.
jonasw
moparisthebest: nextcloud is *slightly* more than a caldav server.
ralphm
moparisthebest: seriously, caldav or any hope of functional interop between clients and servers is a lost cause at this point.
Kev
ralphm: I know. Im unteachable :)
ralphm
also, if this works, I don't see any reason to do yet another thing. Thanks Guus
Guus
Sam: you should have access now.
ralphm
Guus: ralphm.net@gmail.com
Kev
Indeed, thanks to Guus.
Guus
ralphm: you should have access now
moparisthebest
jonasw: doesn't have to be pretty sure it's all plugins now
moparisthebest
I just don't like relying on Google meh
Guus
happy to help
jonasw
moparisthebest: If I had to run the server, I wouldn’t like to rely on the bunch of PHP nextcloud is :-)
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Zash
CalDAV is non-trivial to do.
SamWhited
If I had to have an account on the server and give it a password or any details at all, I wouldn't like to rely on the bunch of PHP nextcloud is…
Guus
all of you (+Alex) also have administrative powers - use them as you see fit.
moparisthebest
jonasw: there is a python one
SamWhitedcancels all the meetings!
Guustakes screenshot for eternal blaming purposes.
Zash
Especially compared to hosting static .ics files
jonasw
Zash: writing static ICS files per hand or even with software is a non-trivial thing to do too though
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ralphm
moparisthebest: seriously, you have no idea how terrible this stuff is in practice. You are free to create your own calendar, though.
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Tobias
jonasw, that's why we used a python script to do that
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ralphm
Kev: FWIW, it has only been since 2002 synchronized DST switchover dates with the EU.
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SamWhited
Wait, so does the council meeting move with DST? I didn't actually realize that
moparisthebest
ralphm, I mean I use caldav all the time with my stuff, it seems to work pretty well, I can't say ics is better
Guus
Sam: I don't know, I changed that by popular demand here (and to avoid a scheduling conflict next week)
moparisthebest
I actually don't care caldav vs ics, I'd just prefer not to rely on google
jonasw
isn’t caldav just ics over http?
jonasw
+ a few extra methods for querying
ralphm
SamWhited: it does, so does Board
Zash
jonasw: Not even close
SamWhited
That's confusing
moparisthebest
no jonasw , totally different
Zash
It's WebDAV with support for advanced queries into the calendar data.
jonasw
I don’t know. It just works™ for me
ralphm
SamWhited: start a support group with Arc
SamWhitedis going to just make the editors meeting fixed UTC, then I only have to figure out if I'm in DST and not if others are in DST to figure out the difference
arc
+1
Guus
dst is evil.
moparisthebest
right jonasw works great! :) what server do you use for it?
jonasw
radicale.
moparisthebest
nextcloud works good enough for me for now, I need contacts and calendar
moparisthebest
I don't love the php, but meh
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Flow
> SamWhited: That's only a GitHub thing, FWIW
Certainly not: http://spec.commonmark.org/0.26/#example-110
SamWhited
Huh, didn't realize commonmark was based on GitHub flavored markdown.
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Flow
github and stackexchange together with some other companies formed CCommonMark: see "Who are you?" at http://commonmark.org/
Flow
SamWhited: ^
moparisthebest
the funnier part was it originally had a different name and the markdown creator guy chewed them a new one, so they changed it :)
Flow
moparisthebest: yeah, that was one nice popcorn show
SamWhited
I guess it's good that they develop it to a spec, but creating something called commonmark just makes me think of that standards XKCD that people post into this room every few days
Flow
I'd also like to point out that John MacFarlane is behind CommonMark *and* pandoc
Ge0rG
The apocalypse call-out has started: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/717076/4c3593aa4cad8e66/ (Y2K38)
moparisthebest
iirc they explicitly mentioned that xkcd comic when they released it, so I'm fine with it :)
Zash
So it begins
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moparisthebest
Ge0rG, so all us programmers are totally screwed but also have job security, a bit of a double edged sword :P
Zashcarefully makes sure to leave Y10k bugs everywhere
Ge0rG
Zash: that won't make for a good retirement plan, unless you intend to live forever.
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Zash
Retirement, like that's going to be a thing in the future.
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bear
hmm, is this old news or something we should talk about as XSF http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2017/Mar/57
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Guus
bear, I think that was discussed earlier today
Guus
or perhaps your yesterday
bear
ah - thanks Guus
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Guus
but, you likely are not the only one that has not been part of that discussion :)
Guus
so fire away :)
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Guus
http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2017-03-21/#09:32:56
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lovetox
should the new mam id inject on messages give the actual message a different mamid then the carbon copy of it? https://paste.gajim.org/view/157752b2
lovetox
or im missing something here, is this actually archived two times?
lovetox
is this again some self messaging corner case
lovetox
Holger
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lovetox
or is this not even the new inject, was the archiv id always added to self messages
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Flow
lovetox: it should be <origin-id/> for the outgoing stanzas
Flow
see xep359 § 2.2
Flow
ahh I'm confused
Flow
lovetox: why do you get a carbon *and* the stanza to the same resource?
lovetox
the question is why has the same message two different mam ids
lovetox
this happens when you adress a message to your own bare jid
lovetox
but this is viewed from the other side
lovetox
we get the actual message
Flow
ahh ok, I think you may want to add a <origin-id/>
lovetox
but then a sent carbon because we are not the sending resource
Flow
or dedup by the message-stanza-id
lovetox
i do this already, but the question is not why i get the messages i get, this was discussed at length and its ok for me
Flow
I think nothing in the MAM/stanza-id XEP prevents the involved parties from assigning multiple IDs to the same stanza
lovetox
the question is why does the server attribute two differen mam ids to the same message
Flow
(not saying that this is good)
lovetox
i would understand if the message was received twice by the server