XSF Discussion - 2017-03-21

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  51. jonasw Kev, dwd, FWIW, I think the use of namespaced attributes there is very elegant and in the spirit of XML.
  52. jonasw dwd: re 'It's useful to have a device-specific token which can then be managed and/or revoked, independent of ISR': that kind of thing exists, it’s used with SASL EXTERNAL and called a Client Certificate ;-)
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  67. Kev It might be in the spirit of XML, but it's not in the spirit of XMPP, and I'd say that's more important in this case.
  68. jonasw what’s the spirit of XMPP in that regard?
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  74. Kev Not to use namespaced attributes.
  75. Kev And to use namespaced child elements instead.
  76. jonasw would probably work equally well
  77. Guus I don't think that I've ever seen a namespaced attribute being used in the wild. xml:ns, if that counts, perhaps.
  78. jonasw Guus: there are XML-based templating which use namespaced attributes to do magic
  79. jonasw think <ul><li engine:loop-over="some expression" engine:loop-var="x"><engine:insert expr="x" /></li></ul>
  80. Guus oh, I'm not arguing that you _can_ use them. i'm just observing that I don't recall ever working with them.
  81. Guus ah, yeah, good old JSTL does use some.
  82. Guus (actually, no, it doesn't I think - what I was thinking of are all namespaced elements)
  83. Guus point being: we can use them, but if there's no urgent need, why break a familiar pattern of not having them?
  84. jonasw I also still wonder which XML implementations there are out there which do not support XML Namespaces and which are actually used for XMPP.
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  86. jonasw the ejabberd implementation was one of them (at least three years ago)
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  89. Zash All the regex ones you don't wanna know about.
  90. jonasw right, nginx is probably one
  91. Zash That's not even regex
  92. jonasw it’s a finite state machine IIRC
  93. jonasw pretty much regex
  94. Zash http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3907
  95. jonasw ;P
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  138. dwd Our security guy is telling me there's a vulnerability in libpurple, for any folks using Adium or Pidgin.
  139. jonasw jus tone?
  140. jonasw *just one?
  141. Zash What else is new?
  142. dwd Well, this one has been fixed.
  143. Zash CVE?
  144. intosi I'm sure a new release of Adium will happen in about a year.
  145. Zash Is it CVE-2017-2640? Or something newer?
  146. dwd intosi, Aparently there is an update already.
  147. Ge0rG https://twitter.com/bbhorne/status/681832517096370176 "Libpurple is basically a flock a zero days flying in formation." - @ioerror #32c3
  148. Bunneh Ge0rG: Minor clarifications to XEP-0198 #32 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/32
  149. Ge0rG Bunneh: no!
  150. Zash lol Bunneh
  151. Guus harharhar
  152. intosi Bad Bunneh!
  153. jonasw hrhr
  154. jonasw seriously though, CVE?
  155. dwd It wasn't on our internal thing. I've asked.
  156. intosi dwd: don't seen anything newer than (03/09/2016 [sic])
  157. jonasw can’t find anything on oss-security :/
  158. dwd (Internal thing: custom UI on top of Buddycloud which acts as our internal social network. Given we're ditching it at some point, I should suggest this gets put out as Open Source as thrown-over-the-wall).
  159. dwd It is indeed CVE-2017-2640
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  161. jonasw why the heck do they decode entities at all?!
  162. mimi89999 What apps are vulnerable? Only Pidgin and Adium?
  163. jonasw mimi89999: anything using libpurple probably.
  164. jonasw this notably includes spectrum
  165. dwd jonasw, Most XML libraries decode entities as a matter of course.
  166. jonasw yes but why do they have their own entity decoding code then?
  167. jonasw (also, not if you’re using SAX, which makes sense for XMPP anyways)
  168. dwd jonasw, Oh, I've not read the CVE. It's obviously more stupid than I thought.
  169. jonasw that’s the fix: https://bitbucket.org/pidgin/main/commits/b2fc9e774cb9
  170. jonasw I haven’t looked deeply into it, but it contains entity processing.
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  173. dwd That's weird.
  174. jonasw erm
  175. jonasw another question
  176. jonasw nevermind
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  178. MattJ jonasw, we use expat (SAX) and it decodes entities for us
  179. jonasw MattJ: with expat + sax I get a callback on entities which I use to raise an exception to kill the stream.
  180. jonasw maybe that’s optional
  181. dwd jonasw, Even &#xabcd; stuff?
  182. dwd jonasw, Or &apos;
  183. Zash <stream:error><not-well-formed xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams'/></stream:error>
  184. jonasw ah, not those
  185. jonasw no, yes, it calls startEntity for those; I explicitly white-listed those
  186. Zash Wha
  187. Kev Even in attributes?
  188. jonasw let me write at test for that!
  189. Kev I'm surprised that e.g. &amp; in an attribute would generate a callback, but it's not impossible.
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  191. jonasw expat actually does that
  192. jonasw but the callback only fires when the entity is known to expat
  193. jonasw so if you try to use &uuml;, it will reject that before startEntity is called
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  197. dwd More importantly than all of this, my children have informed me that "Woof" in Welsh is "Wŵff", which fills me with unaccountable glee.
  198. jonasw I haven’t even the slightest idea how to pronounce that.
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  200. Kev jonasw: "woof". Basically.
  201. Ge0rG dwd: because it allows one to use Combining Diacritical Marks?
  202. Guus vowels are overrated.
  203. Kev Guus: Welsh loves vowels. It loves them so much it invented more.
  204. Guus classic overcompensation.
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  279. Guus Alex: is there / can you create an ics that I can subscribe to, with relevant XSF events (membership meetings primarily, but perhaps board and council meetings too)? I'm always struggling to get the time zone correct in Google's Calendar
  280. dwd Guus, I think Tobias did something. It might even work again.
  281. Guus Tobias: is there / can you create an ics that I can subscribe to, with relevant XSF events (membership meetings primarily, but perhaps board and council meetings too)? I'm always struggling to get the time zone correct in Google's Calendar
  282. Guus (upcoming DST for Europe is going to be yet another source of pain...)
  283. Tobias i see if i can revive that
  284. Guus Thanks
  285. Alex Guus: I have suggested something like Google CAL a while ago. I don't know who has access and manages the current calendars right now. I don't think I have write access to them right now.
  286. Guus Alex: that'd also work for me. I was not aware that we have any calendars in the first place.
  287. jonasw speaking of which, when’s the next council meeting?
  288. Ge0rG tomorrow afternoon?
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  291. Alex there are ICS cals, not sure where the URIs for them are listed
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  293. jonasw isn’t that when board meeting takes place, Ge0rG?
  294. Ge0rG jonasw: could update-entry.py provide a diff view instead of a 2x raw view?
  295. jonasw Ge0rG: can do
  296. Ge0rG jonasw: no, those are on Wed evenings
  297. jonasw isn’t today tuesday?
  298. Ge0rG jonasw: yes?
  299. jonasw so council and board meetings are on the same day-of-week?
  300. Ge0rG jonasw: as far as I understood, yes.
  301. Ge0rG the council meeting is before the board meeting
  302. jonasw fascinating
  303. Guus There are some ICS files under http://xmpp.org/calendar/
  304. Ge0rG 2017-03-08, 2017-03-15, I think there's a pattern
  305. Guus but those appear outdated
  306. Alex Guus: gives me a 404
  307. Guus http://xmpp.org/calendar/xsf-council.ics
  308. Guus (there's no listing)
  309. Alex yes, on the old website they were lined from a page
  310. Guus Tobias: where these the ones that you referred to?
  311. Tobias yes
  312. Tobias they used to be generated from XML. probably not the most user friendly
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  315. Guus given that they appear to stop working in 2014 ... perhaps explicitly delete them, and replace them by something else?
  316. Guus a Google Cal, as suggested by Alex, would do just fine for me
  317. Ge0rG dwd: it'd be nice if you could set your mark on https://trello.com/c/wF37u9DJ/169-vote-on-approve-xep-0045-changes-proposed-by-georg
  318. Tobias google calendar wfm
  319. Guus want me to create one?
  320. Alex +1
  321. Guus is there a XSF google account?
  322. Tobias Guus, good..question...i don't know
  323. dwd There was. I think we dropped it, but we used to have th XSF calendar on a Google account.
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  325. dwd Ge0rG, I did.
  326. Zash Pretend that you see the obligatory anti-google rant here.
  327. Ge0rG dwd: oh, sorry. You did it on the ML, it just wasn't updated in trello.
  328. dwd Ge0rG, Yes. FWIW, I'd love it if we formally voted on a webapp for the purpose, I don't think it's fair on the Editors to expect them to track the mailing list in this way.
  329. Ge0rG dwd: I'm not sure what is lacking to achieve that. Write access to trello?
  330. dwd Ge0rG, I'd prefer more than that, something like the IETF's datatracker.
  331. Zash What's the source of truth here?
  332. dwd Zash, The mailing list and/or council chatroom. Depending.
  333. Ge0rG Zash: there is no need in an authoritative source of truth if we assume that council members are well-behaving
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  335. Ge0rG dwd: it should be XMPP based!
  336. Ge0rG SCNR
  337. jonasw Ge0rG: will do when my update-manual feature branch is merged
  338. Guus I created a public calendar here: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com
  339. Guus ical: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
  340. Guus could someone verify that it's behaving correctly please? This is the first time that I create a public calendar
  341. Ge0rG BTW, where are the rules codified how (and if) other people can participate in board/council meetings?
  342. Guus there's one event on it, on May 2nd (the member appl. meeting)
  343. dwd Ge0rG, They're not codified, but we have held both meetings in public by default for years now, and - while ultimately up to the chair - comments from the floor are normally welcomed.
  344. Ge0rG dwd: I've ran into a situation where I had the feeling of misbehaving multiple times already, when I only wanted to contribute to a (board) meeting.
  345. Guus I might have already messed up the time of that first meet, btw.
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  351. Ge0rG jonasw: I'd also suggest making the README a .md and not an .rst
  352. jonasw why, Ge0rG?
  353. Ge0rG jonasw: my gut feeling is that markdown has become more common among developers
  354. mathieui it’s also the worst markup language
  355. mathieui worse*
  356. Zash "worse is better"
  357. jonasw Ge0rG: does it matter?
  358. SamWhited It's fine except for the two spaces at the end of a line being a line break… that drives me nuts.
  359. jonasw it is readable in plain text, it renders fine on github; for me, rst is easier to write because I do it every day.
  360. Zash SamWhited: Thou shallt not have line breaks
  361. jonasw and thou shalt not have trailing spaces
  362. jonasw :-)
  363. SamWhited I would not mind getting rid of both of those, yah.
  364. Ge0rG jonasw: in .md, you could get syntax highlighting of the json in the readme by using ```json quotes
  365. SamWhited That's only a GitHub thing, FWIW
  366. dwd I may be the only person who doesn't care here. It's a wonderful feeling.
  367. Ge0rG jonasw: personally, I don't care much, just wondered about your choice being anti-popular
  368. intosi grabs popcorn
  369. mathieui dwd, you’re not joining the holy war? heretic.
  370. jonasw Ge0rG: it’s because ~all docs for python are written in reStructuredText – and that’s what I do for most of my time.
  371. Ge0rG jonasw: I feel with you, a little bit.
  372. jonasw not sure what that’s supposed to mean :)
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  374. Ge0rG SamWhited: there are other markdown parsers that support syntax highlighting of quotes
  375. Zash SamWhited: No pandoc can do syntax highlighting too with that syntax.
  376. Zash Pandoc is the best
  377. Ge0rG Pandoc FTW!
  378. Zash SamWhited: A, comma also.
  379. SamWhited Pandoc is the best; it also supports several flavors of Markdown (yey no proper standard), including GitHub flavored MD, IIRC
  380. dwd SamWhited, "Flavoured".
  381. dwd finds a Holy War to join.
  382. Ge0rG I'm actually writing my CVEs in Pandoc and converting them to .doc for our "corporate" "processing pipeline".
  383. SamWhited dwd: Why don't you go drink some tea or something?
  384. Zash Coffee!
  385. dwd SamWhited, Marvellous ida.
  386. dwd SamWhited, Marvellous idea.
  387. SamWhited (I saw even though I have a cup of tea in front of me at this very moment :) )
  388. SamWhited say, even.
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  390. dwd SamWhited, If only you had a biscuit, you could apply to UK citizenship right away.
  391. Ge0rG Zash: we can't win the coffee-vs-tea war, it seems
  392. intosi nroff ftw
  393. jonasw dwd: if you want to fight *that* (gb vs. us) holy war, fix xep 143 (<https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#nt-idp1712848>) ;P
  394. Ge0rG dwd: what about the "flavor" thing above? re SamWhited's citizenship
  395. Zash pandoc can output troff, pandoc win again
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  398. dwd jonasw, The irony of that example is: http://grammarist.com/spelling/authorise-authorize/
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  400. Zash Whatever that page says is wrong.
  401. jonasw dwd: I fail to see the irony
  402. dwd jonasw, The Oxford English Dictionary, which usually favors British spellings, still lists authorize as the primary spelling
  403. jonasw ah, haven’t read that far :)
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  406. Guus board, council, could you volunteer at least one from yourself to have access to the shared calendar (and add your meetings there?)
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  409. Guus Tobias: might be good to explicitly delete the old ICS files.
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  411. Tobias it might, yes
  412. Tobias will do that in a moment
  413. Guus Tobias: please delete the old ICS files? :)
  414. Kev Guus: And I'd like admin on anything XSFish, please.
  415. Guus ok :)
  416. Guus Kev: gladly
  417. Guus I only need a google account for you, I think
  418. Kev Assuming PMs are enabled in here (I forget), I think I just sent you one :)
  419. Guus you did
  420. Kev \o/
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  449. ralphm Guus, the great thing about the old ICS files was that we had separate ones. I.e. one for board meetings, one for council, etc.
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  452. Kev Yes, but they're not updated now, so I'm fine with Guus trying to start something simpler that works instead of the previous better system that isn't used :)
  453. Kev (I prefer the old system in principle, too)
  454. Guus ralphm: if that's of value, we can split them up - I have no issue with that. But so far, we had many, many, unused calendars. :)
  455. ralphm Oh, fully agree, Kev. The terrible thing about the ICS files was that they were not being updated.
  456. Tobias and it's not comfortable to make a commit every week to update a simple date
  457. Guus Google should give you an easier interface for that
  458. Tobias maybe we can tag them in google and have a script that creates filtered ICS based on the one google outputs
  459. Guus I've just added a recurring weekly Council meeting (16:00 - 16:30 Reykjavik time, right?)
  460. Tobias it's 17:00 Berlin time
  461. Guus when is the board meeting?
  462. Guus Iceland does not do DST and is therefor UTC. :)
  463. intosi Guus: board meetings follow European UTC usually.
  464. intosi * DST
  465. Tobias Guus, ahh
  466. SamWhited Guus: That's too good; are you sure Iceland is a real place?
  467. ralphm Is that why Iceland is not joining the EU?
  468. intosi Iceland is a chain of stores.
  469. Alex has joined
  470. Guus SamWhited: I think I recall a story from Arc in which he was locked up in its airport? :)
  471. Zash It's a trap?
  472. Guus Intosi: I'm happy to add the board and council meetings, but board and council should administer these meets themselves, ideally - if only to apply changes.
  473. ralphm Guus: what intosi said: peg the meetings to WE(S)T or CE(S)T
  474. jonasw "script" and "ics" doesn’t sound like a good combination
  475. Kev ralphm: Or London time, which is what they were traditionally pinned to :)
  476. ralphm WE(S)T is London time
  477. Guus guys, please give me a Google account so that you can do that yourselves :)
  478. ralphm ralphm.net
  479. moparisthebest What about a caldav server like nextcloud?
  480. Kev ralphm: I stand educated. Marginally :)
  481. SamWhited Guus: Can you add me so I can add editor meetings (not that those actually happen with any regularity)?
  482. SamWhited Google Account is the same as my JID
  483. ralphm Kev: that's rare. I'm savouring the moment.
  484. jonasw moparisthebest: nextcloud is *slightly* more than a caldav server.
  485. ralphm moparisthebest: seriously, caldav or any hope of functional interop between clients and servers is a lost cause at this point.
  486. Kev ralphm: I know. Im unteachable :)
  487. ralphm also, if this works, I don't see any reason to do yet another thing. Thanks Guus
  488. Guus Sam: you should have access now.
  489. ralphm Guus: ralphm.net@gmail.com
  490. Kev Indeed, thanks to Guus.
  491. Guus ralphm: you should have access now
  492. moparisthebest jonasw: doesn't have to be pretty sure it's all plugins now
  493. moparisthebest I just don't like relying on Google meh
  494. Guus happy to help
  495. jonasw moparisthebest: If I had to run the server, I wouldn’t like to rely on the bunch of PHP nextcloud is :-)
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  497. Zash CalDAV is non-trivial to do.
  498. SamWhited If I had to have an account on the server and give it a password or any details at all, I wouldn't like to rely on the bunch of PHP nextcloud is…
  499. Guus all of you (+Alex) also have administrative powers - use them as you see fit.
  500. moparisthebest jonasw: there is a python one
  501. SamWhited cancels all the meetings!
  502. Guus takes screenshot for eternal blaming purposes.
  503. Zash Especially compared to hosting static .ics files
  504. jonasw Zash: writing static ICS files per hand or even with software is a non-trivial thing to do too though
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  506. ralphm moparisthebest: seriously, you have no idea how terrible this stuff is in practice. You are free to create your own calendar, though.
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  509. Tobias jonasw, that's why we used a python script to do that
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  512. ralphm Kev: FWIW, it has only been since 2002 synchronized DST switchover dates with the EU.
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  514. SamWhited Wait, so does the council meeting move with DST? I didn't actually realize that
  515. moparisthebest ralphm, I mean I use caldav all the time with my stuff, it seems to work pretty well, I can't say ics is better
  516. Guus Sam: I don't know, I changed that by popular demand here (and to avoid a scheduling conflict next week)
  517. moparisthebest I actually don't care caldav vs ics, I'd just prefer not to rely on google
  518. jonasw isn’t caldav just ics over http?
  519. jonasw + a few extra methods for querying
  520. ralphm SamWhited: it does, so does Board
  521. Zash jonasw: Not even close
  522. SamWhited That's confusing
  523. moparisthebest no jonasw , totally different
  524. Zash It's WebDAV with support for advanced queries into the calendar data.
  525. jonasw I don’t know. It just works™ for me
  526. ralphm SamWhited: start a support group with Arc
  527. SamWhited is going to just make the editors meeting fixed UTC, then I only have to figure out if I'm in DST and not if others are in DST to figure out the difference
  528. arc +1
  529. Guus dst is evil.
  530. moparisthebest right jonasw works great! :) what server do you use for it?
  531. jonasw radicale.
  532. moparisthebest nextcloud works good enough for me for now, I need contacts and calendar
  533. moparisthebest I don't love the php, but meh
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  546. Flow > ‎SamWhited‎: That's only a GitHub thing, FWIW Certainly not: http://spec.commonmark.org/0.26/#example-110
  547. SamWhited Huh, didn't realize commonmark was based on GitHub flavored markdown.
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  551. Flow github and stackexchange together with some other companies formed CCommonMark: see "Who are you?" at http://commonmark.org/
  552. Flow SamWhited: ^
  553. moparisthebest the funnier part was it originally had a different name and the markdown creator guy chewed them a new one, so they changed it :)
  554. Flow moparisthebest: yeah, that was one nice popcorn show
  555. SamWhited I guess it's good that they develop it to a spec, but creating something called commonmark just makes me think of that standards XKCD that people post into this room every few days
  556. Flow I'd also like to point out that John MacFarlane is behind CommonMark *and* pandoc
  557. Ge0rG The apocalypse call-out has started: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/717076/4c3593aa4cad8e66/ (Y2K38)
  558. moparisthebest iirc they explicitly mentioned that xkcd comic when they released it, so I'm fine with it :)
  559. Zash So it begins
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  564. moparisthebest Ge0rG, so all us programmers are totally screwed but also have job security, a bit of a double edged sword :P
  565. Zash carefully makes sure to leave Y10k bugs everywhere
  566. Ge0rG Zash: that won't make for a good retirement plan, unless you intend to live forever.
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  584. Zash Retirement, like that's going to be a thing in the future.
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  611. bear hmm, is this old news or something we should talk about as XSF http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2017/Mar/57
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  614. Guus bear, I think that was discussed earlier today
  615. Guus or perhaps your yesterday
  616. bear ah - thanks Guus
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  618. Guus but, you likely are not the only one that has not been part of that discussion :)
  619. Guus so fire away :)
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  622. Guus http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2017-03-21/#09:32:56
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  643. lovetox should the new mam id inject on messages give the actual message a different mamid then the carbon copy of it? https://paste.gajim.org/view/157752b2
  644. lovetox or im missing something here, is this actually archived two times?
  645. lovetox is this again some self messaging corner case
  646. lovetox Holger
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  648. lovetox or is this not even the new inject, was the archiv id always added to self messages
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  659. Flow lovetox: it should be <origin-id/> for the outgoing stanzas
  660. Flow see xep359 § 2.2
  661. Flow ahh I'm confused
  662. Flow lovetox: why do you get a carbon *and* the stanza to the same resource?
  663. lovetox the question is why has the same message two different mam ids
  664. lovetox this happens when you adress a message to your own bare jid
  665. lovetox but this is viewed from the other side
  666. lovetox we get the actual message
  667. Flow ahh ok, I think you may want to add a <origin-id/>
  668. lovetox but then a sent carbon because we are not the sending resource
  669. Flow or dedup by the message-stanza-id
  670. lovetox i do this already, but the question is not why i get the messages i get, this was discussed at length and its ok for me
  671. Flow I think nothing in the MAM/stanza-id XEP prevents the involved parties from assigning multiple IDs to the same stanza
  672. lovetox the question is why does the server attribute two differen mam ids to the same message
  673. Flow (not saying that this is good)
  674. lovetox i would understand if the message was received twice by the server
  675. lovetox but it wasnt, we sent out one message
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