XSF Discussion - 2017-03-22

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  72. jonasw

    lovetox: once sent and once received, in a twisted, technical, non-UX-oriented way it makes sense.

  73. Zash

    Does the Prosody one do that?

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  80. Ge0rG

    I'm pondering about writing an XEP for clients to properly handle message-to-self situation. I was thinking about using the 'sent' carbon, but with MAM it's getting blurry

  81. Ge0rG

    It's just that I don't have a MAM implementation yet

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  171. nyco

    BING! Meetup in Paris next week!

  172. nyco


  173. nyco


  174. Tobias

    great..will reweet that on the xmpp account

  175. Tobias


  176. nyco

    thx! ;-)

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  184. Tobias

    Flow, when does the IoT SIG usally meet?

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  186. Flow

    Tobias: There is no scheduled next meeting.

  187. nyco

    is there room in all the countries for other XMPP/Jabber Meetups?

  188. nyco

    Netherlands, maybe?

  189. Tobias

    Flow, would be nice to set one up to discuss the IEEE IoT and XMPP IoT strategy, including some council presence

  190. Flow

    Tobias: I suggest contacting Rikard

  191. Tobias


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  203. arc

    any perseus admins here?

  204. Tobias


  205. arc

    just wondering if you know where the observatory frontend code lives on here

  206. Tobias

    uff..no... intosi might know that

  207. arc

    ok how about, how are vdomains configured on here

  208. arc

    im not finding the things id expect in /etc/apache2 or /etc/nginx

  209. intosi

    In the nginx config.

  210. arc

    ah there it is, ok. i was looking in sites-enabled, didnt notice the vdomains

  211. arc

    i havent used nginx for a very long time

  212. intosi

    I think you'll find the observatory code at https://bitbucket.org/xnyhps/xmppoke-frontend

  213. Tobias

    i thought everybody was using it nowadays :)

  214. arc


  215. arc

    Tobias: i might be, if I had not interviewed for a job with them

  216. jonasw

    … until they find that nginx cannot into && or nested ifs

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  219. arc

    their CEO is a former rugby teammate of mine, Gus. I'm not working for them because they don't allow employees to work on FOSS projects outside of work without explicit permission

  220. intosi

    Tobias: depends on the server. I have machines running nginx and lighttpd, but the majority is apache.

  221. arc

    so I don't consider nginx a valid FOSS project anymore.

  222. moparisthebest

    It seems to depend on how long it's been since you've set up the server :)

  223. moparisthebest

    originally I used apache, then changed to lighttpd, now everything runs nginx

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  225. intosi

    Some of these servers go back almost 20 years.

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  229. arc

    i know nginx is just now getting dynamically loaded modules but doesn't have a stable module api; that's another perk of Apache

  230. arc

    though honestly in the end it shouldn't really matter, everything should be containerized anyway

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  234. arc

    apache httpd is falling behind in the area of http/2.0, its implemented through loaded modules but not nearly as well supported as core

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  236. arc

    and apache2's websocket support is still tack-on requiring a bit of a hack with the i/o filters

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  238. moparisthebest

    yea arc at least currently nginx is first with support for everything

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  240. arc

    I'll give you that. But its always easier when your design is primarily monolithic and centralized, employed developers

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  244. moparisthebest

    especially ones banned from writing other code right arc ? :P

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  246. Zash

    How can that be legal?

  247. jonasw

    Zash: freedomland probably

  248. moparisthebest

    Zash, I suppose it's just a regular contract right?

  249. SamWhited

    It's probably not, depending on where they're headquartered.

  250. moparisthebest

    either way no one who wants to keep that job is going to sue them over it

  251. SamWhited

    But yah, what moparisthebest said; doesn't matter if it's unenforceable, chances are most people won't take legal action if they get fired.

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  253. Zash

    Weird and broken

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  255. jonasw


  256. jonasw

    that at least gave me an idea why the heck you’d want to do that, aside from pure evilness

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  259. moparisthebest

    hmm arc didn't you say nginx was in california? if that article is to be believed they have a law against that

  260. SamWhited

    California definitely has a law against that; doesn't stop people from doing it unless someone challenges them though.

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  263. moparisthebest

    right, that'd be enough to at least make me feel comfortable they couldn't steal my unrelated work

  264. Ge0rG

    where I live, nobody can steal my copyright.

  265. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, your employer doesn't own what you write for them?

  266. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: copyright is a personal right in Germany. You can't give it away, you can merely grant exclusive distribution rights

  267. Zash

    Ge0rG: Here that applies to all works of art, except code.

  268. Ge0rG

    Zash: this is because most code is not art.

  269. SamWhited

    Code is just zeros and ones, so obviously it's not a work of art. It just happens.

  270. mathieui

    in most countries the fact that your employer can’t deprive you of your copyright doesn’t mean that they can’t lawyer you into oblivion for this anyway

  271. moparisthebest

    so Ge0rG what stops you from working at a company, writing some critical code, quitting or being fired, then 'revoking distribution rights' ?

  272. mathieui

    (also I found the joel article really bad)

  273. moparisthebest

    the first non-self-employed programming job I had was contracting, they had a clause like this, when I asked about it they said "oh you mean like writing code for the linux kernel?" I said "something like that" they said "oh we use linux all the time so that's fine" I really needed the job so I didn't argue

  274. moparisthebest

    my current job is just in-house software for a medical company, they don't produce software, so they don't have any clause like this

  275. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: there are bounds to what is admissible in contracts between employers and employees, and if either side bends the contract too much, there are courts

  276. moparisthebest

    I got a job offer in between that had a clause like this, I said it wasn't acceptable, they said people say that all the time and removed it no questions asked...

  277. jonasw

    moparisthebest: I don’t think you can revoke those rights after you signed to pass them.

  278. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: I'm pretty sure that "all your code belong to us" is illegal in DE, and thus that clause will have no effect

  279. SamWhited

    It doesn't matter if it has an effect or not if you get sued and don't have the time or money to deal with lawyers.

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  281. moparisthebest

    I think laws kind of protect you some ways, I'd still much rather have a clear contract without that bad clause though

  282. moparisthebest

    because like SamWhited said I don't have lawyers or time or money to fight lawsuits against huge companies

  283. jonasw

    moparisthebest: if it isn’t legal in $country, reasonable employers won’t have such a clause :-)

  284. jonasw

    (and if they have and insist on having it, I would worry about other things wrong in that company)

  285. moparisthebest

    jonasw, it's not legal in california apparantly and they still do

  286. Ge0rG

    I have a clause in my contract that I need permission from my boss to do other jobs (which is illegal, I only need to inform them), and he spoiled my christmas party because my photo gallery is on a .pro domain and it might be a side business.

  287. jonasw

    Ge0rG: ugh

  288. moparisthebest

    how did he spoil it?

  289. Ge0rG

    not sure if he tried to be funny or just mean, but he proposed paying me photographer wage instead of itsec wage if this is what I want to do.

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  291. moparisthebest

    sounds like an asshole haha

  292. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: my contractual obligations forbid me to comment on that .P

  293. moparisthebest

    yea I'd encourage you not to either way :)

  294. arc

    moparisthebest: there isn't a law in California against an employer stopping you from working on things on your own time. The law is that your employer cannot claim ownership of IP you develop while employed, worked on in your own time and on your own equipment.

  295. Ge0rG

    you better not respond to github tickets from your business-owned phone

  296. arc

    some employers such as Google go so far as purchasing special pens with chemically doped inks so that any documents written with their pens can be challeged later to be Google's IP, since their equipment was used

  297. moparisthebest

    seriously? that sounds like a joke

  298. moparisthebest

    I hope it's a joke...

  299. Ge0rG

    joke day is next week

  300. arc

    its not a joke, ive had 3 googlers warning me about the gift pens

  301. arc

    im not and will never be an employee

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  303. arc

    there was apparently a court case where this was disclosed; two former employees who left to do a startup doing something similar to what they were doing at Google, and Google claimed they developed it with company property.

  304. intosi

    If they're gifting the pens, doesn't that undermine their claim that anything written with them might be Google IP?

  305. arc

    the key part is Google demanded original documents, not copies

  306. arc

    "gifting" is the question here. they're office supplies freely available.

  307. Ge0rG

    maybe they are only doing that to prevent Googlers from stealing office supplies?

  308. arc

    in any case, these are the kind of bullshit talked about in the bay area. bigger than this tho, Google's employment contract forbids it and violating it is terms for immediate firing

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  311. arc

    i dont think any google needs to steal pens. they're not even that nice of pens.

  312. Ge0rG

    I also like the other explanation, it totally fits the "don't be evil" stance.

  313. Ge0rG

    arc: any chance you can dig up the court case?

  314. arc

    i was just looknig for it but all im finding at the moment is the case for the "stolen IP" cases with apple and uber

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  316. arc

    google is constantly in these kind of lawsuits

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  318. moparisthebest

    this is part of the reason I haven't looked for a new better paying job

  319. moparisthebest

    no way I'm writing healthcare industry software in my spare time, so I'm pretty much good no matter what

  320. Ge0rG

    I just wanted to say "we are hiring" but that christmas party story probably spoiled it now.

  321. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, do you hire remote workers from USA ? hehe

  322. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: haven't tried yet. I'm a remote worker 450km away, and I'm working from home 90% of the time, and visting customers for the other 10%

  323. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: no idea if we can compete with west coast wages though.

  324. moparisthebest

    I'm in the middle so I don't nearly compete with west coast wages either :)

  325. arc

    geesus, google quietly ended their 20% policy in 2013?

  326. moparisthebest

    but it works out because my housing/living expenses is 1/4 of west coast costs too

  327. Ge0rG

    OTOH I can imagine some logistical challenges. 100% of our customers are German.

  328. moparisthebest

    I know how to count to 10 in german... :)

  329. mathieui

    I managed to survive three CCCongresses and two CCCamps, does it count towards knowing german?

  330. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: that won't suffice. you need to be able to count at least to our daily rate.

  331. Ge0rG remembers a bunch of New Yorkers, visting CCCongress in Berlin, waiting at a red traffic light at 3AM... it was very bizarre

  332. arc

    completely off topic, any tips for cooking eggs in cast iron, beside seasoning it obsessively?

  333. arc

    Ge0rG: in the US, cops sit with their lights off in the middle of the night waiting for people to run red lights. that's why.

  334. Ge0rG

    arc: the next-best idea that comes to my mind is to make omelette by breaking the eggs into a zipper bag and cooking it

  335. Ge0rG

    arc: in NYC?

  336. moparisthebest

    I once set a frozen porkchop on fire in a cast iron skillet, frozen porkchops are very flammable fyi

  337. arc

    Ge0rG: everywhere. cops in the US have quotas for tickets.

  338. Ge0rG

    I've experienced both NYC and Berlin as cities where nobody looks for the lights

  339. SamWhited

    arc: I don't think that's true, lots of my Google friends still have 20% time. Maybe a specific team got rid of it or something

  340. arc

    they're left to their own devices to come up with ways to ticket people.

  341. arc

    SamWhited: https://qz.com/115831/googles-20-time-which-brought-you-gmail-and-adsense-is-now-as-good-as-dead/

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  343. mathieui

    Ge0rG, last time I jaywalked in switzerland people were looking at me like they wanted to murder me

  344. mathieui

    I am now careful of doing so in foreign countries

  345. arc

    i actually do kindof remember this, employees talking about "120% time". now managers have to approve, rather than it being a right everyone had (usually every friday), and most managers set goals to 100% of your time so you can only work on your personal projects if you're ahead of schedule

  346. Zash

    mathieui: I found that it's fine in Brussels as long as you appear confident enough while walking

  347. arc

    one of my friends who works as a SRE said his manager uses the 20% time as a "reward" for being on schedule, but then increases your workload after you do it since you've clearly demonstrated that you can.

  348. Zash

    More work as reward for working?

  349. arc

    yea, why I put it in quotes.

  350. arc

    when Google went public, a lot of things changed. Growth demanded managers started getting hired from other industries, and the corporate culture changed drastically.

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  352. Zash

    Better than getting fired because there's not enough work to do I suppose.

  353. mathieui

    the niceties of corporate culture

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  355. arc

    googler are smarter than that. they create more work for themselves by constantly throwing away old projects and creating new, incompatible products

  356. arc

    why do you think they've gone through 4 IM standards in 7 years

  357. Zash

    Reinventing the wheel and NIH is so much fun!

  358. SamWhited

    Maybe that's just what happens when you go public; I have seen other companies engineering culture go to shit as soon as they went public (although it was not clear if that was actually the cause)… will not name names for… reasons.

  359. arc


  360. arc

    this is making me sad.

  361. Zash

    ... tractors with firmware?

  362. arc

    all tractors have firmware now

  363. arc

    this was the central point of the "right to repair" bills

  364. Zash

    That's completely alien to me

  365. moparisthebest

    yea that's some ridiculous stuff

  366. intosi

    All cars have firmware these days, too.

  367. moparisthebest

    cars are the same

  368. arc

    John Deere is spending millions on lobbying to stop these bills because they dont want farmers to be able to hack their own tractors

  369. Ge0rG is driving a 2016 car, it's full of electronics... and has a GPL license hidden in the radio menu

  370. moparisthebest

    cars don't even just have computers now, they have computer networks, an engine computer (sometimes multiple), a transmission computer, a computer for everything else, networked across an insecure network, which is fine, until some moron plugs an internet connected radio into it...

  371. moparisthebest


  372. arc

    ive been reading tons of complaints by farmers claiming their tractors have a software-based kill switch that cause them to shut down if regular maintenance isnt performed in time or if they've surpassed their lifespan

  373. arc

    how much of that is paranoia, vs how much is a conspiracy by the corporation, is anyone's guess.

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  375. arc

    but on a political side its *just enough* of an edge to get broad popular support

  376. Ge0rG

    arc: dongling of tractor components is less far-fetched than chemical marking of ink

  377. Ge0rG

    printer manufacturers are doing it for decades now

  378. arc

    yea that's true, but about the "kill switch"

  379. moparisthebest

    this is why I'm keeping my 1952 tractor and never buying a newer car, I've even just recently convinced my wife :)

  380. arc

    farmers claiming their regular service lights go on, and they have 30 days before the tractors simple won't start anymore. some left stranded in the field.

  381. Ge0rG

    arc: I expect this to happen from a company that requires farmers to sign license contracts on sold tractors.

  382. ralphm

    I remember when this channel was more on topic.

  383. arc

    farmers complaints are being treated as backwoods hicks conspiracy theories tho

  384. arc

    ralphm: we're... orbiting... the topic.

  385. Zash


  386. ralphm

    No, it seems there's more and more of these discussion in this room, and I want it gone.

  387. ralphm

    But maybe that's just me

  388. moparisthebest

    ralphm, the tractors probably use xmpp for the company to remotely shut them down?

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  390. moparisthebest

    personally I don't see it interrupting actual on-topic discussion, if it did then I'd agree it's a problem

  391. arc

    hey *IM* working on xmpp stuff right now ;-)

  392. Kev

    ralphm: It's not just you. This window flashes and I try to read it (now or later) to catch up on important XMPP discussions. People talking about tractors and Christmas parties is just wasting my time.

  393. Kev

    I'm happy to make another room on the server for people to have OT chats if they want them.

  394. ralphm

    moparisthebest: I do. When I scroll back in this channel, I don't want to search XSF or XMPP related stuff with a magnifying glass. I am also not interested in philosophical debates about the evilness of Google services or licensing choices. In this venue.

  395. dwd

    Kev, +1.

  396. Zash

    Have we come to the point where we need an OT room?

  397. Kev

    Zash: I don't care one way or the other, I'd just like in here to be less woefully offtopic.

  398. mathieui

    (can agree on the OT thing, even if I am sometimes actively contributing to it)

  399. jonasw proposes xsf-leisure@, if we really need it

  400. mathieui

    Zash, well, it *does* make backlogging more of a pain when you want to focus on XMPP stuff

  401. Ge0rG

    splitting out off-topic discussions won't work. Forbidding them probably will, but it might not be a good idea nevertheless.

  402. jonasw

    I am running out of horizontal space for conversation tabs, so -1 ;-)

  403. Zash

    Figure out how to to smarter threading

  404. ralphm

    Ge0rG: I'd be happy to mandate and enforce this.

  405. moparisthebest

    I find it easy to scroll through, I don't care either way, I'd suggest making the topic clearer on the subject though, ie offtopic conversations forbidden or whatever

  406. mathieui

    Ge0rG, I have seen a few communities where splitting out off-topic discussions work quite well

  407. Zash

    ralphm: You /are/ the moderator, you have the power. :)

  408. jonasw

    I’ve seen it work more-or-less okay-ish

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  410. ralphm

    The topic in this room is very clear. Most clients display it: "XSF Discussion"

  411. SamWhited

    Ooh, relevant XMPP UI consideration: horizontal tabs are a bad idea, because scroll doesn't work or doesn't feel as natural. New IM products mostly have a vertical room/chat selection thing for a reason.

  412. jonasw

    if moderators throw "ECHAN" at anyone going off-topic

  413. moparisthebest

    it doesn't say "Only XSF Discussion"

  414. jonasw

    SamWhited: tell that to pidgin.

  415. Ge0rG

    mathieui: it would require everybody interested in off-topic discussions to join a different MUC, which nobody will do voluntarily

  416. Zash

    SamWhited: Tell Kev & Tobias :)

  417. mathieui

    moparisthebest, it’s less "offtopic conversations are forbidden" than "when we feel we are drifting offtopic, the conversation should move"

  418. ralphm

    Like so?

  419. SamWhited

    Kev and Tobias! ⤴

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  421. SamWhited

    (but yah, this is one reason I stopped using Gajim and Swift)

  422. arc

    what could be done MIX-wise to manage discussions with threads?

  423. Kev

    Zash: Swift does have a vertical list as well, and it predates most other people starting to do that thing ;)

  424. mathieui

    SamWhited, gajim has vertical tabs

  425. Ge0rG

    mIRC had an option to make a vertical list.

  426. SamWhited

    Oh, nifty, I'll have to try and find it and see

  427. Tobias

    vertical tabs? with rotated label text?

  428. mathieui

    (it’s hidden in the ACE)

  429. SamWhited

    Heh, oops, I mean a list, of course, not "vertical tabs"

  430. Kev

    SamWhited: Look at the "Chats" list in Swift.

  431. ralphm

    Hmm, does Conversation shows people being kicked?

  432. Ge0rG

    Would it make sense to show kicked people, but not other presence changes?

  433. ralphm


  434. SamWhited

    Kev: Ah, I see; I didn't actually understand that I could use that to switch between existing chats in my huge tabs that all start with a single letter and then '…'

  435. Ge0rG

    ralphm: but then you also need to show when that evil person comes back

  436. SamWhited

    It also shows every other random room I have bookmarked though, even stuff I don't actually have open, so it's not all that useful unless I dig to find things

  437. jonasw

    SamWhited: pidgin at least has scrolling, which is slightly useful; it only makes you miss anything from tabs which are currently not visible >.>

  438. Kev

    SamWhited: It shows things with recent activity on top, which does the job for me most of the time, combined with M-a.

  439. SamWhited

    Kev: Oh, I see, I was still confused; it shows bookmarked rooms separate from recent chats

  440. Ge0rG

    I wish I could try out swift...

  441. Tobias

    we need to make these shortcuts more discoverable

  442. Tobias

    Ge0rG, you could if you wouldn't use sid :P

  443. SamWhited

    I was looking at the bottom thinking that was rooms, and the top thinkin that was chats (not noticing that the first thing was this room)

  444. Ge0rG

    Tobias: I tried to install the ubuntu .deb, but it also depends on boost 1.58 from half a year ago

  445. Tobias

    i tested installing on 16.04 and Jessie...what ubuntu did you try?

  446. SamWhited

    Either way, having the horizontal tabs list is rather useless and confusing; I have no idea what room "m…" is.

  447. jonasw

    sid <3

  448. Ge0rG

    Tobias: the funniest thing is, I have half of the boost packages installed on my machine. but only half of them

  449. Ge0rG

    Tobias: none. I just added the ubuntu repo to sid

  450. ralphm

    Ge0rG: I don't care that much about that. But I'm sure it is an interesting UX concept on how to deal with occupants being kicked.

  451. SamWhited has joined

  452. ralphm

    Also curious about what that looks like in MIX

  453. Tobias

    Ge0rG, and expected that to work?

  454. Ge0rG

    Tobias: yes, it often works.

  455. SamWhited wonders why he gets booted from all IETF rooms any time he joins with a second client

  456. Ge0rG

    ralphm: MIX will probably have much more static participant lists, as opposed to MUC

  457. ralphm

    Not probably

  458. jubalh has joined

  459. ralphm

    But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to kick people.

  460. Ge0rG

    ralphm: most of the MUCs I'm in contain pages and pages of presence changes.

  461. ralphm

    If only as a gesture.

  462. jubalh has left

  463. ralphm kicks Ge0rG

  464. ralphm

    See. So satisfying

  465. Zash

    Does kicking even make sense in MIX?

  466. Ge0rG

    ralphm: sure it is.

  467. Steve Kille

    In MIX you change participation, so there is no longer a need for an explicit Kick

  468. Tobias

    SamWhited, because it runs an old ejabberd version?

  469. Ge0rG

    Steve Kille: but people will want to have an explicit kick, because it's satisfying

  470. ralphm

    Steve Kille: from a techical standpoint, maybe.

  471. SamWhited

    oh boy, sounds like fun; I keep meaning to see what they're sending me or what's actually going wrong.

  472. Holger has left

  473. Ge0rG

    I've been kicking people for over 20 years now, we can't simply remove that from MIX. Nobody will use it without kicks!1!

  474. SamWhited

    gajim only actually joined a handful of my bookmarks with auto join set, so I guess that's one way to make sure there aren't too many tabs open…

  475. ralphm

    SamWhited: works for me

  476. arc

    who's here for the meeting

  477. SamWhited

    huh; gajim also freezes for ~3 seconds any time I do almost anyting (eg. hit "ok" on adding a new account), so I'm assuming something about my system is just borked

  478. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: do you have gpg installed?

  479. arc

    do we have any items for the meeting this week?

  480. nyco

    time for board meeting?

  481. arc


  482. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Board Meeting| Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  483. ralphm bangs gavel

  484. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  485. ralphm

    Hi all. Who do we have?

  486. arc


  487. Martin


  488. ralphm

    dwd: minutes?

  489. dwd

    ralphm, Yes, I'll do them.

  490. nyco

    why not hours?

  491. arc

    hours is only when the meeting runs over 120 minutes.

  492. dwd

    nyco, I'm hoping it won't take that long.

  493. SamWhited has left

  494. ralphm

    MattJ ?

  495. MattJ


  496. ralphm

    I see we should clean up our Trello Board

  497. ralphm

    Let's spell out what we want to discuss today here.

  498. arc

    I don't have any items for today.

  499. arc

    Unless we want to discuss PyCon

  500. Ge0rG

    I'd like to remind the Board of the removal of deprecated software process.

  501. nyco


  502. ralphm

    arc: sure we can

  503. arc

    +1 Ge0rG

  504. MattJ

    I'd like to (re)raise the boring task of collecting money from sponsors

  505. arc

    Guus's calendar, yea

  506. ralphm


  507. ralphm

    1. Sponsors and FOSDEM financial resolution

  508. nyco

    Ge0rG, is it a Board task? I feel we agree we should "do something", but is it a Board duty?

  509. ralphm

    I have a big todo on this for my expenses and money we got from the sales at FOSDEM

  510. arc

    I still need to get reimbursed for the dinner

  511. arc

    does that get sent to PSA?

  512. ralphm

    I haven't collected or filed my expenses

  513. ralphm

    So let's all send that PSA

  514. Ge0rG

    nyco: I've sent a proposal mail to board@ last week, as was asked in the last board meeting. And I think there is also the issue of iteam-vs-website

  515. ralphm

    I'll hit up stpeter on this and the Executive Director stuff hopefully this week

  516. ralphm

    Ge0rG: ah. So your message was probably killed, as it is automoderated.

  517. ralphm


  518. nyco

    ok, we got the agenda?

  519. ralphm

    nyco: we already started

  520. nyco


  521. ralphm

    We're at Sponsors and FOSDEM

  522. nyco

    yep, thx

  523. ralphm

    I also have a message from MattJ in my inbox

  524. ralphm

    So I'll try to get this all resolved Real Soon Now™

  525. MattJ

    Great. If you need help with stuff, shout

  526. ralphm

    Can everyone else with expenses send his information to stpeter?

  527. ralphm

    MattJ: ok

  528. ralphm

    2. Deprecation

  529. ralphm

    So Ge0rG, I think your message got lost in moderation

  530. jubalh has joined

  531. ralphm

    Can you resend it to the Members list instead?

  532. Ge0rG

    https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt is the draft

  533. ralphm


  534. Ge0rG

    There are two "TODO"s in it, one is to have a fallback contact (the iteam vs. website debate from Board meeting), the other is changing the example URL after https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278 is merged.

  535. Ge0rG

    The reference commit was rewritten since, new URL is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278/commits/ca54e6846163d69ded7cb5f2d20bedc649b1fbd0

  536. ralphm

    I'd like the signoff to be personal. Otherwise, it looks fine to me.

  537. jubalh has left

  538. Ge0rG

    ralphm: obviously, I can't sign it with any official role (except for "XSF member")

  539. ralphm

    You can sign it with your name, we asked you to do this

  540. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I wasn't sure if I was the one to send it. If I am, I'll sign it as "Georg Lukas, on behalf of the XSF Board"

  541. ralphm

    Sounds good.

  542. arc


  543. Yagiza has left

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  545. ralphm

    Kev: would you be ok with iteam as manually performing these updates?

  546. vurpo has left

  547. vurpo has joined

  548. ralphm

    MattJ, nyco, Martin agreed, too?

  549. nyco

    yeah, sure, let's do this

  550. Martin

    Sounds fine to me +1

  551. MattJ

    Yes, sounds good

  552. Ge0rG

    is there an official way to approach iteam?

  553. ralphm

    Great. So let

  554. Ge0rG

    ask in jdev@

  555. Ge0rG

    "ask in jdev@"?

  556. nyco

    I guess it is not enough, but that's just me, can't argue, I don't see the future, at least that will have some effect

  557. ralphm

    's asynchronously wait on Kev's response and then send it off afterwards

  558. Ge0rG

    ralphm: it also blocks on #278

  559. Bunneh

    ralphm: Mix #278 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/278

  560. Ge0rG

    sorry, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278

  561. Ge0rG

    I've had a look into the PR and it seems fine with me, but I have no rights to deploy anything on the website.

  562. Ge0rG

    (nor a clue about how to do it)

  563. ralphm

    Since it has been 6 days, I'm sure Guus can merge it now

  564. ralphm

    3. PyCon

  565. ralphm


  566. Guus has left

  567. arc

    so we all know when it is, right?

  568. arc

    we have the booth. we need to start gathering materials to do it well

  569. Guus has joined

  570. vurpo has left

  571. arc

    and any "demo" type stuff. ideally things we can reuse at other conferences, and any larger items like beanbags that we can store state-side

  572. vurpo has joined

  573. ralphm

    Can you make a list at the wiki?

  574. ralphm

    We also need to invoke SCAM for this

  575. arc

    I can put some of my ideas on the wiki, certainly

  576. arc


  577. arc

    ah, yea the new WG

  578. ralphm


  579. nyco

    yeah, is SCAM clearly defined and understood by all?

  580. SamWhited

    I've been meaning to ask what that means for weeks

  581. dwd

    arc, When is PyCon (useful to put in the minutes)

  582. Valerian has left

  583. Valerian has joined

  584. arc

    May 17-25. The booth will only be on May 18, 19, and 20

  585. ralphm

    We probably need to write a charter, read XEP, for SCAM

  586. arc

    21-25 will be the sprints, which I'd like to get enough of us there to run a sprints table

  587. SamWhited

    Sorry, that was me asking: what is SCAM?

  588. arc

    there is still a free PyCon pass available for an XSF member who can make it and is willing to help out with the booth

  589. arc

    SamWhited: Summits, Conferences, And Meetups

  590. ralphm

    Summits, Conferences, And Meetups

  591. SamWhited


  592. nyco

    and is the SCAM WG official?

  593. nyco

    who's on it?

  594. ralphm

    I think we voted for having it. We didn't actually specify it.

  595. arc

    after FOSDEM we talked about needing a WG to help with these, since a majority of the prep workload too often falls on 1-2 people

  596. arc

    This is a great time to get the WG organized, though.

  597. nyco

    I'd rather have it emerge bottom-up, rather that design top-down

  598. arc

    You don't have to actually be going to PyCon to help get stuff ready for it.

  599. ralphm

    So actually, we decided it to be a Work Team, not a SIG

  600. ralphm

    so it doesn't require a XEP

  601. nyco

    personally, I said I could engage and commit some work, given we have a real team, committed as well

  602. nyco

    yeah, the lightweight version good! ;-)

  603. ralphm

    So, I think an action point is to actually put people on it

  604. arc

    Yea that'd be a good start.

  605. arc

    I'll volunteer

  606. arc

    sounds like nyco did as well

  607. nyco

    rather listen to people and see if there is interest... and encourage/coach/push them a little, as a kickoff

  608. nyco

    arc, not without a team

  609. nyco

    the commteam was not really a team

  610. arc

    I think its easier to get a group started when there's a concrete project to start with and non-arbitrary deadlines

  611. ralphm

    I'd be happy to be on it, too.

  612. nyco


  613. nyco


  614. ralphm

    PyCon seems like a good starting project

  615. nyco

    so arc yuo do a meetup in NYC, ralph you do a meetup in Amsterdam, I do Paris and Krakow... next? ;-)

  616. ralphm

    Having non-Board members on it, seems like a good thing

  617. nyco

    ralphm, yep, members, even non-members is fine for me

  618. arc

    nyco: im moving to Portland very soon, where Portland is being hosted this year

  619. ralphm

    nyco: we decided on it being members-only

  620. dwd

    arc, Portland is being hosted in Portland?

  621. mhterres has left

  622. arc

    dwd: PyCon is being hosted in Portland

  623. ralphm

    See minutes of our 2017-02-08 meeting

  624. nyco

    for the Paris meetup next Tuesday, we'll start super lightweight: we have only two subjects of discussion... no presentation/slidedeck, no workshop, no nothing fancy

  625. arc

    dwd: sorry

  626. dwd

    arc, :-)

  627. dwd needs to start arranging another London one.

  628. nyco

    dwd, yep

  629. ralphm

    ok. We need to continue this another time

  630. ralphm

    Let the minutes reflect that member volunteers for this Work Team are welcome

  631. arc

    I'll send a mail out to members@ to solicit volunteres for the WG

  632. ralphm


  633. nyco

    and please, let's sync/centralise/distribute/promote all the content that we produce and present during these meetups

  634. ralphm

    I see that nyco is chairing the Work Team

  635. nyco

    because now, everything is lost on Meetup.com, proprietary platform

  636. Ge0rG

    small FYI: I've updated https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt with the remarks from the meeting, only open thing is the website PR.

  637. nyco

    ralphm, I got a chair, yes... but that's it

  638. ralphm

    4. AOB

  639. daniel has left

  640. ralphm

    I didn't see any

  641. nyco


  642. daniel has joined

  643. ralphm

    5. Date of Next

  644. nyco

    that's another business

  645. nyco


  646. arc


  647. ralphm

    +1W. Note that coming weekend is DST switchover in EU, thus also the meeting time

  648. nyco

    cool, thx all!

  649. ralphm

    6. Close.

  650. ralphm


  651. ralphm bangs gavel

  652. arc

    our DST was a few weeks ago ;-)

  653. arc

    thanks ralphm

  654. dwd

    ralphm, Wait - you saying the next meeting is anchored in UTC or EU local?

  655. arc

    dwd: UTC

  656. arc

    its changing for EU folks next week

  657. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  658. arc

    it changed for US folks a few weeks ago

  659. dwd

    arc, Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what time to write in the minutes.

  660. arc

    last year our meetings were fixed to EU daylight savings, which caused the meeting time to change 4 times a year vs just 2

  661. arc

    dwd: UTC.

  662. ralphm

    That would make us overlap with Council?

  663. Guus

    Council also does UTC, I read in the minutes

  664. dwd


  665. ralphm

    Oh, so we do too

  666. nyco


  667. ralphm has left

  668. dwd

    nyco, Already has been created, technically - it was in the minutes and everything.

  669. nyco

    I was not even aware of that...

  670. nyco

    I mean I did not realise we decided

  671. Martin has left

  672. Ge0rG

    Guus: good to see you back, could you please merge https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278

  673. nyco

    I assumed it was still "under thoughts"

  674. Guus

    I have just updated both the upcoming Council and Board meetings to UTC (they were fixed on London time) in the sparklin' new shared Calendar.

  675. nyco

    good, anyway, I'll start collecting the slidedecks from all the recent meetups, so that we put them everywhere for the world to see, like SlideShare, LinkedIn, etc. and of course, our blog, and the authors blog(s)

  676. Guus

    Ge0rG: done.

  677. Martin has joined

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  679. Ge0rG

    okay, so https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/8724430ff702bab98865ef2338cd392c277a71ee is the final commit hash? jonasw?

  680. jonasw

    Ge0rG: if you don’t want me to change the commit-id to reflect potential future diff-ish output of the tool (which I haven’t done yet), and nobody rebases the branch instead of merging, I think so.

  681. Guus

    I rebase/merged it.

  682. Ge0rG

    jonasw: it's in the master commit now.

  683. Ge0rG

    jonasw: it's in the master branch now.

  684. jonasw


  685. jonasw

    then it is fixed ;-)

  686. Guus

    (not sure what commit Ge0rG was referring to)

  687. Ge0rG

    Guus: I need a reference to the example commit for https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt

  688. Martin has left

  689. Martin has joined

  690. jonasw

    Ge0rG: if it is in the master branch, I cannot change the commitid anyways, so I’m not sure why you’re asking :)

  691. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'm double-checking.

  692. jonasw


  693. Guus

    Ge0rG: I'd simply refer to the README at https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/data

  694. jonasw

    Ge0rG: Type upper-case yes: YES

  695. jonasw

    Guus: it’s for the example commit which shows how a change looks

  696. jonasw

    (I hope)

  697. Ge0rG

    yes, that's the intent

  698. jonasw

    Ge0rG: in your current draft, [2] points to master

  699. jonasw

    not to the readme

  700. Ge0rG

    jonasw: [2] is the repository

  701. Guus

    so the README has two pages of instructions, but still, we need something else? Either that's untrue, or we need to update the README :)

  702. Ge0rG

    jonasw: just clarified the wording

  703. jonasw

    hm, I’d rather link the readme instead of the commit

  704. jonasw

    maybe we can link the commit in the readme

  705. Ge0rG

    and the readme in the commit.

  706. jonasw

    that commit doesn’t contain any readme

  707. jonasw

    (and we cannot change the commit message anymore)

  708. Ge0rG

    https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt - there, I changed it: > If you have an entry in one of the lists, please create a pull request as desribed in [1] before the 1st of May 2017. An example commit can be found in [2]. Software that is not updated until that date will be automatically removed from the listing.

  709. Ge0rG

    I'm waiting on a green light from Kev and send the mail tomorrow

  710. jonasw


  711. Zash

    Wait, that better not require github interaction

  712. jonasw

    Zash: github or jdev@ interaction

  713. jubalh has joined

  714. jonasw

    so just like before to get your software added to the list

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