jonaswthat at least gave me an idea why the heck you’d want to do that, aside from pure evilness
moparisthebesthmm arc didn't you say nginx was in california? if that article is to be believed they have a law against that
SamWhitedCalifornia definitely has a law against that; doesn't stop people from doing it unless someone challenges them though.
moparisthebestright, that'd be enough to at least make me feel comfortable they couldn't steal my unrelated work
Ge0rGwhere I live, nobody can steal my copyright.
moparisthebestGe0rG, your employer doesn't own what you write for them?
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: copyright is a personal right in Germany. You can't give it away, you can merely grant exclusive distribution rights
ZashGe0rG: Here that applies to all works of art, except code.
Ge0rGZash: this is because most code is not art.
SamWhitedCode is just zeros and ones, so obviously it's not a work of art. It just happens.
mathieuiin most countries the fact that your employer can’t deprive you of your copyright doesn’t mean that they can’t lawyer you into oblivion for this anyway
moparisthebestso Ge0rG what stops you from working at a company, writing some critical code, quitting or being fired, then 'revoking distribution rights' ?
mathieui(also I found the joel article really bad)
moparisthebestthe first non-self-employed programming job I had was contracting, they had a clause like this, when I asked about it they said "oh you mean like writing code for the linux kernel?" I said "something like that" they said "oh we use linux all the time so that's fine" I really needed the job so I didn't argue
moparisthebestmy current job is just in-house software for a medical company, they don't produce software, so they don't have any clause like this
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: there are bounds to what is admissible in contracts between employers and employees, and if either side bends the contract too much, there are courts
moparisthebestI got a job offer in between that had a clause like this, I said it wasn't acceptable, they said people say that all the time and removed it no questions asked...
jonaswmoparisthebest: I don’t think you can revoke those rights after you signed to pass them.
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: I'm pretty sure that "all your code belong to us" is illegal in DE, and thus that clause will have no effect
SamWhitedIt doesn't matter if it has an effect or not if you get sued and don't have the time or money to deal with lawyers.
moparisthebestI think laws kind of protect you some ways, I'd still much rather have a clear contract without that bad clause though
moparisthebestbecause like SamWhited said I don't have lawyers or time or money to fight lawsuits against huge companies
jonaswmoparisthebest: if it isn’t legal in $country, reasonable employers won’t have such a clause :-)
jonasw(and if they have and insist on having it, I would worry about other things wrong in that company)
moparisthebestjonasw, it's not legal in california apparantly and they still do
Ge0rGI have a clause in my contract that I need permission from my boss to do other jobs (which is illegal, I only need to inform them), and he spoiled my christmas party because my photo gallery is on a .pro domain and it might be a side business.
moparisthebesthow did he spoil it?
Ge0rGnot sure if he tried to be funny or just mean, but he proposed paying me photographer wage instead of itsec wage if this is what I want to do.
moparisthebestsounds like an asshole haha
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: my contractual obligations forbid me to comment on that .P
moparisthebestyea I'd encourage you not to either way :)
arcmoparisthebest: there isn't a law in California against an employer stopping you from working on things on your own time. The law is that your employer cannot claim ownership of IP you develop while employed, worked on in your own time and on your own equipment.
Ge0rGyou better not respond to github tickets from your business-owned phone
arcsome employers such as Google go so far as purchasing special pens with chemically doped inks so that any documents written with their pens can be challeged later to be Google's IP, since their equipment was used
moparisthebestseriously? that sounds like a joke
moparisthebestI hope it's a joke...
Ge0rGjoke day is next week
arcits not a joke, ive had 3 googlers warning me about the gift pens
arcim not and will never be an employee
arcthere was apparently a court case where this was disclosed; two former employees who left to do a startup doing something similar to what they were doing at Google, and Google claimed they developed it with company property.
intosiIf they're gifting the pens, doesn't that undermine their claim that anything written with them might be Google IP?
arcthe key part is Google demanded original documents, not copies
arc"gifting" is the question here. they're office supplies freely available.
Ge0rGmaybe they are only doing that to prevent Googlers from stealing office supplies?
arcin any case, these are the kind of bullshit talked about in the bay area. bigger than this tho, Google's employment contract forbids it and violating it is terms for immediate firing
arci dont think any google needs to steal pens. they're not even that nice of pens.
Ge0rGI also like the other explanation, it totally fits the "don't be evil" stance.
Ge0rGarc: any chance you can dig up the court case?
arci was just looknig for it but all im finding at the moment is the case for the "stolen IP" cases with apple and uber
arcgoogle is constantly in these kind of lawsuits
moparisthebestthis is part of the reason I haven't looked for a new better paying job
moparisthebestno way I'm writing healthcare industry software in my spare time, so I'm pretty much good no matter what
Ge0rGI just wanted to say "we are hiring" but that christmas party story probably spoiled it now.
moparisthebestGe0rG, do you hire remote workers from USA ? hehe
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: haven't tried yet. I'm a remote worker 450km away, and I'm working from home 90% of the time, and visting customers for the other 10%
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: no idea if we can compete with west coast wages though.
moparisthebestI'm in the middle so I don't nearly compete with west coast wages either :)
arcgeesus, google quietly ended their 20% policy in 2013?
moparisthebestbut it works out because my housing/living expenses is 1/4 of west coast costs too
Ge0rGOTOH I can imagine some logistical challenges. 100% of our customers are German.
moparisthebestI know how to count to 10 in german... :)
mathieuiI managed to survive three CCCongresses and two CCCamps, does it count towards knowing german?
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: that won't suffice. you need to be able to count at least to our daily rate.
Ge0rGremembers a bunch of New Yorkers, visting CCCongress in Berlin, waiting at a red traffic light at 3AM... it was very bizarre
arccompletely off topic, any tips for cooking eggs in cast iron, beside seasoning it obsessively?
arcGe0rG: in the US, cops sit with their lights off in the middle of the night waiting for people to run red lights. that's why.
Ge0rGarc: the next-best idea that comes to my mind is to make omelette by breaking the eggs into a zipper bag and cooking it
Ge0rGarc: in NYC?
moparisthebestI once set a frozen porkchop on fire in a cast iron skillet, frozen porkchops are very flammable fyi
arcGe0rG: everywhere. cops in the US have quotas for tickets.
Ge0rGI've experienced both NYC and Berlin as cities where nobody looks for the lights
SamWhitedarc: I don't think that's true, lots of my Google friends still have 20% time. Maybe a specific team got rid of it or something
arcthey're left to their own devices to come up with ways to ticket people.
mathieuiGe0rG, last time I jaywalked in switzerland people were looking at me like they wanted to murder me
mathieuiI am now careful of doing so in foreign countries
arci actually do kindof remember this, employees talking about "120% time". now managers have to approve, rather than it being a right everyone had (usually every friday), and most managers set goals to 100% of your time so you can only work on your personal projects if you're ahead of schedule
Zashmathieui: I found that it's fine in Brussels as long as you appear confident enough while walking
arcone of my friends who works as a SRE said his manager uses the 20% time as a "reward" for being on schedule, but then increases your workload after you do it since you've clearly demonstrated that you can.
ZashMore work as reward for working?
arcyea, why I put it in quotes.
arcwhen Google went public, a lot of things changed. Growth demanded managers started getting hired from other industries, and the corporate culture changed drastically.
ZashBetter than getting fired because there's not enough work to do I suppose.
mathieuithe niceties of corporate culture
arcgoogler are smarter than that. they create more work for themselves by constantly throwing away old projects and creating new, incompatible products
arcwhy do you think they've gone through 4 IM standards in 7 years
ZashReinventing the wheel and NIH is so much fun!
SamWhitedMaybe that's just what happens when you go public; I have seen other companies engineering culture go to shit as soon as they went public (although it was not clear if that was actually the cause)… will not name names for… reasons.
arcthis was the central point of the "right to repair" bills
ZashThat's completely alien to me
moparisthebestyea that's some ridiculous stuff
intosiAll cars have firmware these days, too.
moparisthebestcars are the same
arcJohn Deere is spending millions on lobbying to stop these bills because they dont want farmers to be able to hack their own tractors
Ge0rGis driving a 2016 car, it's full of electronics... and has a GPL license hidden in the radio menu
moparisthebestcars don't even just have computers now, they have computer networks, an engine computer (sometimes multiple), a transmission computer, a computer for everything else, networked across an insecure network, which is fine, until some moron plugs an internet connected radio into it...
arcive been reading tons of complaints by farmers claiming their tractors have a software-based kill switch that cause them to shut down if regular maintenance isnt performed in time or if they've surpassed their lifespan
archow much of that is paranoia, vs how much is a conspiracy by the corporation, is anyone's guess.
arcbut on a political side its *just enough* of an edge to get broad popular support
Ge0rGarc: dongling of tractor components is less far-fetched than chemical marking of ink
Ge0rGprinter manufacturers are doing it for decades now
arcyea that's true, but about the "kill switch"
moparisthebestthis is why I'm keeping my 1952 tractor and never buying a newer car, I've even just recently convinced my wife :)
arcfarmers claiming their regular service lights go on, and they have 30 days before the tractors simple won't start anymore. some left stranded in the field.
Ge0rGarc: I expect this to happen from a company that requires farmers to sign license contracts on sold tractors.
ralphmI remember when this channel was more on topic.
arcfarmers complaints are being treated as backwoods hicks conspiracy theories tho
ralphmNo, it seems there's more and more of these discussion in this room, and I want it gone.
ralphmBut maybe that's just me
moparisthebestralphm, the tractors probably use xmpp for the company to remotely shut them down?
moparisthebestpersonally I don't see it interrupting actual on-topic discussion, if it did then I'd agree it's a problem
archey *IM* working on xmpp stuff right now ;-)
Kevralphm: It's not just you. This window flashes and I try to read it (now or later) to catch up on important XMPP discussions. People talking about tractors and Christmas parties is just wasting my time.
KevI'm happy to make another room on the server for people to have OT chats if they want them.
ralphmmoparisthebest: I do. When I scroll back in this channel, I don't want to search XSF or XMPP related stuff with a magnifying glass. I am also not interested in philosophical debates about the evilness of Google services or licensing choices. In this venue.
ZashHave we come to the point where we need an OT room?
KevZash: I don't care one way or the other, I'd just like in here to be less woefully offtopic.
mathieui(can agree on the OT thing, even if I am sometimes actively contributing to it)
jonaswproposes xsf-leisure@, if we really need it
mathieuiZash, well, it *does* make backlogging more of a pain when you want to focus on XMPP stuff
Ge0rGsplitting out off-topic discussions won't work. Forbidding them probably will, but it might not be a good idea nevertheless.
jonaswI am running out of horizontal space for conversation tabs, so -1 ;-)
ZashFigure out how to to smarter threading
ralphmGe0rG: I'd be happy to mandate and enforce this.
moparisthebestI find it easy to scroll through, I don't care either way, I'd suggest making the topic clearer on the subject though, ie offtopic conversations forbidden or whatever
mathieuiGe0rG, I have seen a few communities where splitting out off-topic discussions work quite well
Zashralphm: You /are/ the moderator, you have the power. :)
jonaswI’ve seen it work more-or-less okay-ish
ralphmThe topic in this room is very clear. Most clients display it: "XSF Discussion"
SamWhitedOoh, relevant XMPP UI consideration: horizontal tabs are a bad idea, because scroll doesn't work or doesn't feel as natural. New IM products mostly have a vertical room/chat selection thing for a reason.
jonaswif moderators throw "ECHAN" at anyone going off-topic
moparisthebestit doesn't say "Only XSF Discussion"
jonaswSamWhited: tell that to pidgin.
Ge0rGmathieui: it would require everybody interested in off-topic discussions to join a different MUC, which nobody will do voluntarily
ZashSamWhited: Tell Kev & Tobias :)
mathieuimoparisthebest, it’s less "offtopic conversations are forbidden" than "when we feel we are drifting offtopic, the conversation should move"
SamWhitedKev and Tobias! ⤴
SamWhited(but yah, this is one reason I stopped using Gajim and Swift)
arcwhat could be done MIX-wise to manage discussions with threads?
KevZash: Swift does have a vertical list as well, and it predates most other people starting to do that thing ;)
mathieuiSamWhited, gajim has vertical tabs
Ge0rGmIRC had an option to make a vertical list.
SamWhitedOh, nifty, I'll have to try and find it and see
Tobiasvertical tabs? with rotated label text?
mathieui(it’s hidden in the ACE)
SamWhitedHeh, oops, I mean a list, of course, not "vertical tabs"
KevSamWhited: Look at the "Chats" list in Swift.
ralphmHmm, does Conversation shows people being kicked?
Ge0rGWould it make sense to show kicked people, but not other presence changes?
SamWhitedKev: Ah, I see; I didn't actually understand that I could use that to switch between existing chats in my huge tabs that all start with a single letter and then '…'
Ge0rGralphm: but then you also need to show when that evil person comes back
SamWhitedIt also shows every other random room I have bookmarked though, even stuff I don't actually have open, so it's not all that useful unless I dig to find things
jonaswSamWhited: pidgin at least has scrolling, which is slightly useful; it only makes you miss anything from tabs which are currently not visible >.>
KevSamWhited: It shows things with recent activity on top, which does the job for me most of the time, combined with M-a.
SamWhitedKev: Oh, I see, I was still confused; it shows bookmarked rooms separate from recent chats
Ge0rGI wish I could try out swift...
Tobiaswe need to make these shortcuts more discoverable
TobiasGe0rG, you could if you wouldn't use sid :P
SamWhitedI was looking at the bottom thinking that was rooms, and the top thinkin that was chats (not noticing that the first thing was this room)
Ge0rGTobias: I tried to install the ubuntu .deb, but it also depends on boost 1.58 from half a year ago
Tobiasi tested installing on 16.04 and Jessie...what ubuntu did you try?
SamWhitedEither way, having the horizontal tabs list is rather useless and confusing; I have no idea what room "m…" is.
Ge0rGTobias: the funniest thing is, I have half of the boost packages installed on my machine. but only half of them
Ge0rGTobias: none. I just added the ubuntu repo to sid
ralphmGe0rG: I don't care that much about that. But I'm sure it is an interesting UX concept on how to deal with occupants being kicked.
ralphmAlso curious about what that looks like in MIX
TobiasGe0rG, and expected that to work?
Ge0rGTobias: yes, it often works.
SamWhitedwonders why he gets booted from all IETF rooms any time he joins with a second client
Ge0rGralphm: MIX will probably have much more static participant lists, as opposed to MUC
ralphmBut that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to kick people.
Ge0rGralphm: most of the MUCs I'm in contain pages and pages of presence changes.
ralphmIf only as a gesture.
ralphmSee. So satisfying
ZashDoes kicking even make sense in MIX?
Ge0rGralphm: sure it is.
Steve KilleIn MIX you change participation, so there is no longer a need for an explicit Kick
TobiasSamWhited, because it runs an old ejabberd version?
Ge0rGSteve Kille: but people will want to have an explicit kick, because it's satisfying
ralphmSteve Kille: from a techical standpoint, maybe.
SamWhitedoh boy, sounds like fun; I keep meaning to see what they're sending me or what's actually going wrong.
Ge0rGI've been kicking people for over 20 years now, we can't simply remove that from MIX. Nobody will use it without kicks!1!
SamWhitedgajim only actually joined a handful of my bookmarks with auto join set, so I guess that's one way to make sure there aren't too many tabs open…
ralphmSamWhited: works for me
arcwho's here for the meeting
SamWhitedhuh; gajim also freezes for ~3 seconds any time I do almost anyting (eg. hit "ok" on adding a new account), so I'm assuming something about my system is just borked
Ge0rGSamWhited: do you have gpg installed?
arcdo we have any items for the meeting this week?
archours is only when the meeting runs over 120 minutes.
dwdnyco, I'm hoping it won't take that long.
ralphmI see we should clean up our Trello Board
ralphmLet's spell out what we want to discuss today here.
arcI don't have any items for today.
arcUnless we want to discuss PyCon
Ge0rGI'd like to remind the Board of the removal of deprecated software process.
ralphmarc: sure we can
MattJI'd like to (re)raise the boring task of collecting money from sponsors
arcGuus's calendar, yea
ralphm1. Sponsors and FOSDEM financial resolution
nycoGe0rG, is it a Board task? I feel we agree we should "do something", but is it a Board duty?
ralphmI have a big todo on this for my expenses and money we got from the sales at FOSDEM
arcI still need to get reimbursed for the dinner
arcdoes that get sent to PSA?
ralphmI haven't collected or filed my expenses
ralphmSo let's all send that PSA
Ge0rGnyco: I've sent a proposal mail to board@ last week, as was asked in the last board meeting. And I think there is also the issue of iteam-vs-website
ralphmI'll hit up stpeter on this and the Executive Director stuff hopefully this week
ralphmGe0rG: ah. So your message was probably killed, as it is automoderated.
nycook, we got the agenda?
ralphmnyco: we already started
ralphmWe're at Sponsors and FOSDEM
ralphmI also have a message from MattJ in my inbox
ralphmSo I'll try to get this all resolved Real Soon Now™
MattJGreat. If you need help with stuff, shout
ralphmCan everyone else with expenses send his information to stpeter?
ralphmSo Ge0rG, I think your message got lost in moderation
ralphmCan you resend it to the Members list instead?
Ge0rGhttps://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt is the draft
Ge0rGThere are two "TODO"s in it, one is to have a fallback contact (the
iteam vs. website debate from Board meeting), the other is changing the
example URL after https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278 is merged.
Ge0rGThe reference commit was rewritten since, new URL is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278/commits/ca54e6846163d69ded7cb5f2d20bedc649b1fbd0
ralphmI'd like the signoff to be personal. Otherwise, it looks fine to me.
Ge0rGralphm: obviously, I can't sign it with any official role (except for "XSF member")
ralphmYou can sign it with your name, we asked you to do this
Ge0rGralphm: I wasn't sure if I was the one to send it. If I am, I'll sign it as "Georg Lukas, on behalf of the XSF Board"
ralphmKev: would you be ok with iteam as manually performing these updates?
ralphmMattJ, nyco, Martin agreed, too?
nycoyeah, sure, let's do this
MartinSounds fine to me +1
MattJYes, sounds good
Ge0rGis there an official way to approach iteam?
ralphmGreat. So let
Ge0rGask in jdev@
Ge0rG"ask in jdev@"?
nycoI guess it is not enough, but that's just me, can't argue, I don't see the future, at least that will have some effect
ralphm's asynchronously wait on Kev's response and then send it off afterwards
dwdnyco, Already has been created, technically - it was in the minutes and everything.
nycoI was not even aware of that...
nycoI mean I did not realise we decided
Ge0rGGuus: good to see you back, could you please merge https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278
nycoI assumed it was still "under thoughts"
GuusI have just updated both the upcoming Council and Board meetings to UTC (they were fixed on London time) in the sparklin' new shared Calendar.
nycogood, anyway, I'll start collecting the slidedecks from all the recent meetups, so that we put them everywhere for the world to see, like SlideShare, LinkedIn, etc. and of course, our blog, and the authors blog(s)
Ge0rGokay, so https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/8724430ff702bab98865ef2338cd392c277a71ee is the final commit hash? jonasw?
jonaswGe0rG: if you don’t want me to change the commit-id to reflect potential future diff-ish output of the tool (which I haven’t done yet), and nobody rebases the branch instead of merging, I think so.
GuusI rebase/merged it.
Ge0rGjonasw: it's in the master commit now.
Ge0rGjonasw: it's in the master branch now.
jonaswthen it is fixed ;-)
Guus(not sure what commit Ge0rG was referring to)
Ge0rGGuus: I need a reference to the example commit for https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt
jonaswGe0rG: if it is in the master branch, I cannot change the commitid anyways, so I’m not sure why you’re asking :)
Ge0rGjonasw: I'm double-checking.
GuusGe0rG: I'd simply refer to the README at https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/data
jonaswGe0rG: Type upper-case yes: YES
jonaswGuus: it’s for the example commit which shows how a change looks
Ge0rGyes, that's the intent
jonaswGe0rG: in your current draft,  points to master
jonaswnot to the readme
Ge0rGjonasw:  is the repository
Guusso the README has two pages of instructions, but still, we need something else? Either that's untrue, or we need to update the README :)
Ge0rGjonasw: just clarified the wording
jonaswhm, I’d rather link the readme instead of the commit
jonaswmaybe we can link the commit in the readme
Ge0rGand the readme in the commit.
jonaswthat commit doesn’t contain any readme
jonasw(and we cannot change the commit message anymore)
Ge0rGhttps://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt - there, I changed it:
> If you have an entry in one of the lists, please create a pull request as desribed in  before the 1st of May 2017. An example commit can be found in . Software that is not updated until that date will be automatically removed from the listing.
Ge0rGI'm waiting on a green light from Kev and send the mail tomorrow
ZashWait, that better not require github interaction
jonaswZash: github or jdev@ interaction
jonaswso just like before to get your software added to the list