TobiasGithub doesn't have a way to diff between the old version of a PR and the new version, does it?
MattJYou can diff between arbitrary revisions if you figure out the URL format
GuusNot sure exactly what you mean
FlowTobias: it does but is very well hidden
TobiasGuus, a student did a PR, i provided feedback, he updated the PR based on the feedback. now i want a diff between the changes he made
Tobiasi remember some people working around by only adding commits and squashing them in the end after the review
FlowTobias: that is my prefered workflow
Guusah, he already squashed? Not sure if you can look at the previous commit - didn't that disappear after the history got rewritten by the squash?
Tobiasi'm just more used to the gerrit work flow
Guusnote that i'm somehwat of a git novice. Listen to Flow.
TobiasGuus, not really...the feedback changes basically were amended to the original commit
MattJbacks away slowly
GuusMattJ don't make eye-contact, and remain calm. Do not run.
intosiMattJ: it's safe here. We have reflog.
jonaswGuus: you could try https://github.com/$user/$repository/compare/$commitA..$commitB
jonaswif you still have the commit IDs somewhere
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Guusjonasw: i will not, but perhaps Tobias would like to.
jonaswuh, I accidentally killed my muc history, sorry :)
Tobiasjonasw, ta...will give that a shot :)
Tobiasjonasw, sadly..the old commit is gone
jonaswTobias: :(
jonaswthen I’m afraid there’s no way
Tobiasluckily the PR isn't that large
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dwdOrphaned commits aren't pushed, but if you pulled it before you should still have it.
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Flowhmm i just noticed that https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/ link to a XSF feed at http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/rss.xml which doesn't appear to get updated any more
Flowsame for http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/refs/, although I'm not sure what is supposed to be at this location
Flowcan we create a github issue, trello card, $note-somewhere, reminding us to fix this so that we can forget about it? :)
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goffiHi, small pubsub question: can an entity with "publish-only" affiliation retrieve its own items? It can for other ones, but it's not clear for its own. It seems this affiliation can fulfil a feature I need.
goffiit *can't* for other ones
GuusFlow: please create a new issue here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues
GuusI eventually start annoying people to fix those
goffiralphm: hi, you probably can answer my question ^ :)
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intosigoffi: I would say it would not be allowed to retrieve any items.
intosiThat would include its own.
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Guusintosi: It has been a couple of weeks - https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/243
intosiIndeed.
intosi:)
GuusTobias, can https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/204 be closed?
GuusSo, who has anything nice to say about Ryan Eatmon, Jeremie Miller, Julian Missig, Thomas Muldowney and/or Dave Smith? In particular, why they're emeritus members of the XMPP Standards Foundation?
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GuusI don't know any of them, but feel that we should give them a bit more credit
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Tobiaswell, Jeremie Miller started the whole mess IIRC
ZashI recognize one of those names.
ZashAre the others from before my time?
GuusI'd love that for Jeremie. "Jeremie Miller - he started this whole mess."
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TobiasZash, who of them isn't before from your time?
TobiasGuus, yeha..don't quote me on that ;)
Guusbut, if anyone can write a paragraph on any one of them, please add it here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/275
ZashTobias: right
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Ge0rGKev: with your iteam hat on, are you okay with the maintenance burden imposed by https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt ?
Ge0rGOr is the handling of such PRs something that Guus can take care of until the website situation has been clarified?
TobiasGe0rG, i don't see any maintainance burden for the iteam in there
Guus(why me?)
Tobiasbecause you've been most active on github from all...that's the reward you receive for that ;)
Ge0rGGuus: you are the only one I know who's actively maintaining the website. But this is probably due to my ignorance of all the others doing hard work, sorry.
Guuswe need more naming and shaming!
Guushttps://github.com/orgs/xsf/people
Guusthere
Guusthose all have access, i think.
Ge0rGBasically I need a volunteer to merge the PRs, I can take care of preparing / reviewing them
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GuusI shall be happy to push the bright green button
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Ge0rGGuus: thanks very much!
Guusalso: where's the blog post(s)?!
Ge0rGGuus: I'll make one with the contents of
Ge0rGhttps://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt
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Guusworks for me :)
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nycoto make it even more "official": https://linuxfr.org/news/rencontre-xmpp-jabber-par-jabberfr-mardi-28-mars-2017-a-19-h-a-paris
nycosorry, not English
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Guusah, cool
Guusnyco, can I tempt you to maintain the list that is now on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meetups on our website instead?
GuusThe alternative is that we delete the existing but outdated event page: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/276
Guus(which I already did, but the PR has not been merged yet)
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nycoGuus, what's wrong with the maintenance? I did that page, and it looks good to me, so please guide me ;-)
Guusnyco, You are referring to the wiki page, I assume?
Guusthis page lists old information: https://xmpp.org/community/events.html
Guus"Summit 19 will be held once again in Brussels in February 2016"
GuusWe should either update it, or remove it.
Guusthe wiki page is pretty similar - so, I was thinking that instead of having both pages, we'd combine everything on https://xmpp.org/community/events.html
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Guusthat, or delete that page.
Guus(the Lanyrd link shows feb 1st, 2013, as the most uptodate entry)
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nycowhatever is best...
nycoI guess the website has more visibility?
nycohey, can I blog on xmpp.org about the French/Paris meetup?
Guusyes to all
nycogenerally, you may want to go to Reddit website and find the XMPP subreddit, and there you might wanna upvote some articles and comments, and add your positive/insightful comments
(not linking directly, because don't wanna generate fake traffic that will be penalised)
GuusI think the title might be to long for comfort
Ge0rGGuus: negative.
Ge0rGGuus: haven't looked into rendering xmpp.org locally yet, merely pandocced it once
Ge0rGGuus: do you have ideas for a catchier title?
Ge0rG"XMPP Software Developers: Action Required" is the mail subject
Ge0rGmaybe "Change to XMPP Software Listing Rules"?
Ge0rGmaybe "New XMPP Software Listing Rules"?
ZashNever going to give you up .. oh wait yes we are
Guusfyi: vagrant up && vagrant ssh then: cd /vagrant && make devserver website on http://localhost:8000
ZashBut ... a static site...
GuusZash: try and see.
Zashbash: vagrant: command not found
Ge0rGit looks like `./develop_server.sh start` launches that server
Guusapt-get install vagrant ?
ZashGuus: Permission denied
ZashI'm not someone who's going to install things like that
jonaswworks fine without vagrant :)
jonasw(assuming you install pelican and its dependencies…)
Ge0rGGuus: changed title
GuusGe0rG: I added screenshots pre title-change
Guussee comment
Guusjonasw: obviously, but I'm not someone that's going to install all tools for each project on my laptop without some virtualization. Keeps me sane. :)
jonaswit’s not a trivial trade-off
GuusZash: the entire point of installing that is that you can then install other stuff in virtual machines, instead of directly on your laptop :)
Guusjonasw: true, but it works for me.
GuusI'm a freelancer, dancing around several customers, each with their own projects and project dependencies.
Guusat some point, 3 different versions of the same database software gets annoying :)
jonaswI’m frequently running out of disk space. The only thing I find which is reclaimable are the dozens of vagrant-based VMs.
Guushah :)
Guusyeah, but I gladly pay for some extra disk space. That's the cheapest of resources
jonasw(which is the trade-off: isolation vs. disk space)
Guus(docker might actually be a better solution for many of my problems, but I've not looked into that good enough)
jonaswit may be, but it’s still expensive…
jonaswdocker doesn’t help much with that
Ge0rGGuus: commented on your comments :P
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Ge0rG"I'm calling you to tell you that I sent you an email"
Guusthe new title fits nicely, btw
GuusGe0rg: you removed a blank line in your second commit, was that intentional?
jonaswGuus: > and merged the first two paragraphs to improve the preview.
jonaswprobably yes
Guusah, sorry
Guuskk
Ge0rGGuus: yes, it moves "the XSF Board has decided that all implementations have to reapply once per year" into the preview
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Guusnew screenshots
jonaswdo we have a more fitting category than "misc"?
Ge0rGjonasw: pondered that as well
Guusyou can simply make one up
Guusbut make one that's re-usable
GuusXSF Organisational exists, but I'm not sure if it's fitting
Ge0rGGuus: nope
Ge0rGI pondered about that as well. Maybe "Software"?
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Ge0rGBut it would be the first one.
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Ge0rGI'd also like to have something to file "Easy XMPP" under
GuusI don't have a preference
jonasw"State of the Union"
Zash"Federation" is a nice word
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ZashWe need to steal it back from the OStatus people
jonasw"State of the Federation"?
Ge0rGFederation of the State?
GuusSounds like Star Trek.
Ge0rGState of the State?
ZashFederated State of the Union?
nycohttps://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/283
nycoplease someone to review?
Ge0rGGuus: I'd like to get the mail out, and I proclaim that 282 is now good enough[tm]
jonasw+1
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GuusGe0rG: merged. It should pop up on the website anywhere in the next few weeks.
Guus(hours, likely)
Guusnyco, reviewing
Ge0rGGuus: thanks very much! :)
nycoGuus, thx
Guusnyco: title is just a tad to long
Ge0rGMail sent. Another day well spent.
FlowThanks Ge0rg
Ge0rGI can't even imagine how some entries landed on that list... like Apple Messages.
Ge0rGFlow: rush to the githubs! Your library is in danger!
FlowGe0rG, shall I do the trial run?
intosiGe0rG: you might not like it, but it supports XMPP, and I know folks who actually prefer it.
Ge0rGjonasw: your README is b0rked:
$ ./update-entry clients.json yaxim
zsh: no such file or directory: ./update-entry
Flowhmm json
jonaswGe0rG: meh.
Flowdoes the timestamp require a hour and minute, and if so, why?
Ge0rGFlow: now is too late to complain
Flownot complaining, just asking
Floware there plans to add a "last release" column?
Ge0rGintosi: is it the default iOS app? How do you add XMPP to it?
GuusFlow: that was discussed, but it was noted that that might be a false classifier: some software that has not been released in ages is pretty stable.
Flowor how about adding an mail address field, which will receive mails a month before expirey
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GuusFlow: I like the email idea.
Ge0rGFlow: naaah
Ge0rGFlow: we want active entries, not people who barely care enough.
GuusGe0rG: I shall forget to update my entries, even if I'm one of the people managing the site where they're listed.
intosiGe0rG: it's default on OS X. And you add an account by going to the Messages menu, then Add Account, then select Jabber.
intosi* select Other, then select Jabber.
intosiHaven't checked on iOS.
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Ge0rGI'd like to see more info on that page, but "last release date" might not be the most important one.
Guushttps://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/284 is correct, jonasw?
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GuusFlow, you might as well drop the 'SE' ?
FlowGuus: why?
Guusit's hardly relevant? Hey, keep it if you want :)
Flowit don't think Smack would work on Java ME (if that's still a thing)
dwdWhat about EE, does that still exist?
Guusjigsaw ftw!
Flowexists, sure, is it a thing, don't care
Ge0rGGuus: what would be better? collect all the software renewals in one PR or make individual PRs per app?
Guusdon't really care.
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GuusFlow: not sure if your timestamp needs a zone?
Guusjonasw?
Flowexample didn't had one IIRC
Guuskk
GuusI'll squash and merge
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jonaswsorry, was AFK
GuusCan we make Travis check the format of those JSON files?
jonaswGuus: if it builds the website, it checks the JSON files
Guuswhich would safeguard against typo's?
jonaswhmm, entries with malformatted timestamps are simply omitted and do not raise a hard error currently
jonaswFlow: didn’t give it much thought which information to include in the timestamp. it is in UTC though (without the explicit Z) because I didn’t want to open the timezone can of worms
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Ge0rGjonasw: "Use the tool as described in the previous section to perform a renewal (this will sort the list correctly to minimize future diffs)" is a lie, it doesn't sort :(
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jonaswit does sort the keys
jonaswit doesn’t sort the applications, that’s true
Ge0rGjonasw: that's the opposite of what I'd like to have actually ;)
Ge0rGI'd rather have "name" first
Ge0rGand the applications sorted
jonaswGe0rG: I can’t force the json module to do a specific key sorting
jonaswwhich means that without sorted keys, we would end up with random sorts on each save
jonaswwhich is very bad
Ge0rGYay for python json
jonaswit’s based on a security feature
Ge0rGjonasw: but you could sort the applications in the array by name, couldn't you? :D
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jonaswyes, that’s possible
mathieuijonasw, can’t you use PYTHONHASHSEED?
mathieuito fix the dict key order
jonaswmathieui: and find a hash seed which happens to do what we want?
jonaswinteresting hack.
mathieui:D
jonaswrequries everyone to set PYTHONHASHSEED though ;-)
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jonasw(you can’t set it from within python)
jonaswGe0rG: I’ll make a PR which will make a nasty diff and sorts the entries, and then we can discuss there if we want to do that
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Ge0rGjonasw: +1
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Ge0rGdamn, I was too slow in adding Bruno, now it's a new PR
jonaswah, nice, it doesn’t even produce a diff
GuusYou snooze, you loose, Ge0rG
Ge0rGGuus: jonasw is at fault, I was following the README and got confused about the non-sorting
jonaswblame shifting!
Ge0rGjonasw: incorrect documentation :P
GuusI have a hard time having a serious discussion with someone that just added a software entry named "bruno the jabber bear"
Guusjonasw: Ge0rg appears to be making up info categories, is that ocrrect?
Ge0rGGuus: what about the person that is maintaining Bruno the Jabber Bear for over four years now?
Guusjonasw: you need to change that newline in data/libraries.json?
jonaswGuus: it is what happens when you run the tool on the file
Guusk
Ge0rGGuus: you mean the ones in clients.json? I think we need to rework them all, categorically
jonaswthe tool doesn’t put a newline on the end, I ran it to canonicalise
jonaswack, Ge0rG
jonaswideally, we would have them worked out in such a way that we can automatically split the tables on them as has been proposed in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/193
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Ge0rGjonasw: yes please. We can work together on a canonic list of platforms
jonaswsplitting for common mobile OSes probably makes sense
Tobiasjust allow multiple OS categories
jonaswwe do
Ge0rGMy special favorite is the unterminated "("
dwdGe0rG, That had my OCD kick in.
jonaswsorry, my fault
Guus")"
jonaswthat was my code foolishly splitting on / when creating the entries. the "Mobile (Android, Blackberry (BBOS), Nokia Symbian S40" belongs to the "S60 and Asha)" one later
dwdbreathes.
jonaswI’m preparing a cleanup now
Ge0rGjonasw: good dea to properly refactor it now.
jonaswand then have a keen eye on the PRs
Tobiasdwd, just open your scheme handbook for medication
Guusjonasw: we ideally have some sort of script that checks for this, which we can hook up on travis or another github check.
jonaswcan do
Ge0rGwhat's the current name of OS X? "macOS"?
TobiasmacOS
jonaswcan we agree on the list of platforms first though?
Tobiasjonasw, happy to...if new platform comes up we can always issue another PR
Tobiasthat's macOS with small m..otherwise looks fine
jonaswalthough, there are those blackberries
GuusI'd go with "Mobile", and "Mobile (iOS only)" "Mobile (Android only)"
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TobiasMobile is implicit with Android and iOS
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jonaswGuus: I’m doing this with prospect that we might at some point automatically split the table by platform. Having Mobile (iOS) and Mobile (Android) is annoying there.
jonasw(and another Mobile which implies both)
Ge0rGjonasw: "MacOS" -> "macOS"
Ge0rGGuus: -1
Ge0rGjonasw: maybe "Browser" instead of "Web"?
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jonaswdiscuss!
Ge0rGand what to do with "Console" and "Text-Mode"?
nycolet's keep it simple?
nycoconsole, web, ios, android
jonaswconsole isn’t a platform
jonaswit’s a frontend
Guus"misc"
Guus"other"
nycono
jonaswnyco: is your console stuff on MS-DOS, Windows, Linux or whatever runs on my router?
intosijonasw: all UI is a front-end.
nyco"unrelevent"
Ge0rGjonasw: "Windows" is a frontend to NTOSKRNL
nycoKISS
Tobiasjust allow free tagging for OS values and we try to normalize it on demand as a community?
jonaswanother question, do we want this also for servers? if so, we need to add "*BSD" and "Solaris" to the list :)
dwdjonasw, "POSIX", and a massive argument as to whether that strictly covers Linux or not.
Ge0rGLinux is a Unix, so maybe we need a generic Unix?
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jonaswfun!
TobiasGe0rG, not so fast there
Tobias:P
Ge0rGjonasw: also rename 'info' into 'platform'
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Ge0rGit will conviniently move it below 'name'
jonaswGe0rG: in the tooling? that’s complicated, it doesn’t apply to libraries
SamWhitedIs Linux a Unix? I don't think that it is; maybe some individual distros pass the Unix specification?
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GuusYou guys made Kev run.
intosimacOS is a certified UNIX.
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jonaswseriously though, what to do about Console / Text-Mode?
dwdjonasw, Nothing?
jonaswdwd: Nothing as in "keep it" or Nothing as in "drop it"?
Flowwhat about non-IM clients?
Ge0rGI'm slightly for "drop"
dwdjonasw, It's not a platform, certainly.
dwdjonasw, So drop it.
jonaswthen we end up with some clients without platformbs
jonaswbecause they only specified "Console / Text-Mode" (e.g. Finch and GNU Freetalk"
Flowlike bots and such
jonasws/"/)/
jonaswugh
Ge0rGjonasw: remove non-matching items from non-renewed software, let authors sort out
Guuswanders off
jonaswclever
jonaswGe0rG: I’d rather leave it as it is and we sort them out when the software is getting renewed
jonaswbut I’m going to canonicalise those for which it makes sense now
Ge0rGjonasw: I'm still for renaming "info" into "platform", because programming languages are platforms as well
jonaswGe0rG: you could’ve brought that up before it was merged
Ge0rGjonasw: Guus is too fast.
jonaswthe PR was hanging there for weeks
jonaswwell, at least one
jonasw(I think)
GuusI WANDERED OFF!
jonaswhm, maybe only two days
Ge0rGjonasw: I'm not in the habit of opening and reading random PRs
jonasw"the plans were there in the local planning department on Alpha Centauri"
Ge0rGjonasw: neither "Blackberry" nor "Nokia Symbian" make sense.
jonaswi have no idea
Flowhmm I wonder if kontalk and conversations.im got a similar letter
jonaswit was written there in Mobile (…)
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Guusjonasw: I will definately forget to do the manual checks at some point. Please make travis fail when desired.
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Ge0rGjonasw: it's slightly similar to writing "Unix"
jonaswGuus: the issue is that we cannot agree on what is desired
Ge0rGjonasw: I propose "other mobile" for platforms that lost the mobile platform war
Guusjonasw: that does not take away the fact that travis should fail on a to-be-determined list
jonaswokay
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Guuscan you do linting of the json files too?
jonaswwill do
Guus💕
goffiintosi: it seems you're right, thanks for the reply. That's unfortunate, I would like that an entity can write/retrieve or or more item(s) without being able to get any other one
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Ge0rGjonasw: "info" -> "platform"? :D
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jonaswGe0rG: it’s on the way… I only have two hands
jonaswone step after the other
Ge0rGjonasw: yay! :)
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moparisthebestwait Ge0rG you have to let the german govt know if you start a server on your machine there? or I read it wrong?
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: if you are running a commercial public service
ZashDon't forget to register your blog with the ministry of truth.
moparisthebestso, I ran forums (with private messaging?) and still an IRC server on a hetzner server in germany since 2006, I'm breaking german law since I never contacted anyone?
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: only if you have ads on it, or advertise yourself as a professional somethingsomething
moparisthebestthe forum had ads, the irc server does not
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: the forum qualifies then
moparisthebestwhat's the purpose for this anyway? requiring backdoors or?
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: I'll let the authorities know, expect an extradition request soon.
moparisthebestha I guess so :)
danielJust put up a sign that says it's verboten for Germans to use your service
moparisthebestmaybe huge german hosting companies like hetzner might let foreigners know this...
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: the reason is to have a list of companies providing telecommunication services to the public, to better protect people's privacy and to allow for lawful interception
moparisthebestthose last 2 items are completely contradictory, but whatever :)
moparisthebestadd some doublethink in there and it's fine
ZashGe0rG: Is this new?
ZashOr is this the data retention thing resurfacing?
danielNot new. We have always bin at war with Eurasia
moparisthebestseriously with this definition what *doesn't* constitute as a 'telecommunication service' ?
Ge0rGZash: not sure, maybe ten years or so. Not much to do with data retention.
moparisthebestI think a static html page without javascript might, but that's communication in one direction to multiple people even
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Ge0rGthere is also a public directory of such telco providers, with proper postal addresses given (probably so you can sue them)
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Flowdaniel: did you already saw the Android O preview?
moparisthebestcreepy, so where could you properly host an xmpp server? sealand?
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Zashdefine properly
Zashdefine your threat model
danielFlow, i saw the announcment. https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/844257001668513793
Flowyep exaclty, note that they also did something similar in the Android M preview
moparisthebestZash, properly as being able to just start a server and not register with the ministry of truth first
Flowand later added the whitelist for battery optimizations
Flowin the final release
danieli'm still a bit unsure if the permission to ignore battery optimizations might not include that as well
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danielotherwise how are the playservices supposed to run?
Zashmoparisthebest: I'm not aware of any such requirement in .se. Also pretty sure that anything self-hosted is fine.
Flowdaniel: I hope so, but I also wouldn't be suprised if google made it an system-app exclusive feature
Ge0rGAndroid O looks like Android 0.
ZashAndroid Zero
danielabwarten und tee trinken
Ge0rGdaniel: do you know from your head what is needed to make a foreground notification that's slightly greyed out and not displayed together with actual message notifications? (I don't even know how to properly word what I mean, sigh)
danielGe0rG, low priority
Ge0rGdaniel: thanks!
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Ge0rGdaniel: you could create a Conversations wallpaper service!
jonaswGe0rG: really? let’s see how it plays out without that.
jonaswwould be okay with replacing "Other Mobile" with "Other" though
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Ge0rGjonasw: might work well enough as well
Ge0rGjonasw: are those platforms.json for clients only or also for servers and libs?
jonaswnot intended to be used for libs, may be used for servers in the future
jonaswbut currently that’s not enforced
Ge0rGjonasw: I imagine a common platforms json for server and client is okay, and a separate one for libs
Ge0rGOTOH, you don't really often need to filter libs by platform.
jonaswI don’t think we need one for libs, right
Ge0rGfor clients, there is immediate benefit.
Ge0rGIs the clients.json also hosted somewhere on xmpp.org? I could use it to automatically generate the list in easy-xmpp-invitation
jonaswit is not, afaik
jonaswbut should be possible
Ge0rGBTW, it would be nice to also have a description field in the json, though it should be named differently, to be after "name""
GuusGe0rG: it obviously is hosted here: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/xsf/xmpp.org/master/data/clients.json
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Ge0rGGuus: thanks
jonaswGe0rG: updated
jonaswGe0rG: it wouldn’t be shown on the website then though, right?
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jonaswGuus: I’m not that good with travis, also I don’t know the environment. However, running
./data/lint-list.py clients.json
./data/lint-list.py servers.json
./data/lint-list.py libraries.json
is what you wanted me to make possible. Those will fail with non-zero exit codes when there are errors.
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Guusjonasw: travis executes: make html
Guusdoes it make sense to hook it into that?
jonaswGuus: I’d rather add additional commands
Ge0rGjonasw: "it"?
jonaswGe0rG: the description
Ge0rGjonasw: would it be hard to add?
jonaswGe0rG: no, not particularly, but I wonder if that’s the right place.
jonaswand if it will be well maintained if it isn’t shown on the website, and what’s next
jonaswalso, wasn’t someone else working on a registry of software?
jonaswor rather, a way for software to publish their manifests
jonaswthen we could simply add a url_manifest or something like that
Guusjonasw: if I read https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/customizing-the-build/ correctly, you can simply add items to the script directive in .travis
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jonaswGuus: do you know if python3 is available in the travis build?
jonaswGuus: this will make different builds with different versions of python.
jonaswthe default appears to be 2.7
jonaswI have to adapt the linter to work with that
jonaswwhich is not trivial because the .casefold() method used for sorting requires python 3.3+
Guusit is all chinese to me. What happens if we make the entire thing run in python 3.3?
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jonaswGuus: not sure if pelican survives that. at least it probably makes the environment on the server more different from the environment in travis
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jonaswI’ll try to figure out a way to make travis run the linting with python 3.3+ and the website build with 2.7
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GuusI'm not sure what version of python is running on the server in the first place?
jonaswI don’t know either, but pelican still defaults to 2.7 afaik
intosiIt's a Debian system, so 2.7.
intosiBy default, that is.
intosiI didn't dare run Pelican with anything else.
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moparisthebestdoes anyone know if dino has a muc? or like, any way to find out what xeps it supports than source code spelunking? https://github.com/dino/dino
moparisthebestdoes anyone know if dino has a muc? or like, any way to find out what xeps it supports other than source code spelunking? https://github.com/dino/dino
intosiA muc, or muc support?
lskdjfmoparistthebest: we don't have a muc yet, but setting one up is on the todo. And for the supported xeps, they are roughly "listed" here https://github.com/dino/dino/tree/master/xmpp-vala/src/module/xep , although some are only partially implemented
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jonaswno stream management?
Ge0rGhi lskdjf, you are one of the devs?
moparisthebestyea I actually meant 'do they have a muc' but I would have also been interested in if they had xep support
lskdjfjonasw: no, not yet
moparisthebestthanks much lskdjf
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: star https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/13 :P
lskdjfmoparisthebest: muc xep support exists, yes
lskdjfGe0rG, yes I am
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moparisthebeststar or thumbs up? I only see thumbs up
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: star up and thumb it!
moparisthebestI thumbed it
Ge0rGlskdjf: I wanted to pitch https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_XMPP to you :D
moparisthebestnever heard of vala before, looks kind of java-y which I like, will watch closely :)
Holgermoparisthebest: The point of Vala is avoiding C in the GObject/GTK+/GNOME world. The syntax is built around the GObject model and it compiles to C code.
lskdjfmoparisthebest: As far as I read, vala is mainly ment to be c#-like (which again is similar to java...). But it's really nice. I always thought of UI-development being a horror, but I started liking it, vala integrates GTK really nicely.
Holgermoparisthebest: Other than that it's really just yet another totally boring Java/C#-like language yes :-)
moparisthebestI absolutely *love* the idea of languages compiling to C, I've seen a couple like that
Ge0rGa totally boring C#-like GTK-only language.
moparisthebestit's pretty ingenious, then you get compiler and great optimization for free
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dwdmoparisthebest, No, you don't.
dwdmoparisthebest, You get a compiler, sure, but you could have got that by writing an LLVM frontend.
ZashDoesn't GCC still have better optimizations than LLVM & co?
dwdmoparisthebest, You don't get as good optimization, because you have to have machine generated C in the middle, and that loses both semantics and probably injects a lot of boilerplate.
moparisthebestit seems like when a new archictecture comes out a C compiler comes with it at minimum, not necessarily llvm output
ZashBut who cares, the CPU will just re-optimize the machine code anyways.
dwdZash, Different level. It's not like you can run badly written C and it'll miraculously recompile it.
dwdZash, It's more that some of the ASM hand-optimization is done by the CPU these days.
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moparisthebestdwd, I'm not convinced a compiler author could output good llvm but not good C
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dwdmoparisthebest, More scope, I think, for optimization at the transcoding stage.
moparisthebestI'm not sure how llvm handles that, if you can have 'optimal' llvm code, how is it optimal across platforms where there are different optimal ways to do things?
moparisthebestbut also it locks you to llvm which doesn't support everything, idk, I still think in theory I like the C idea better, practice may be different
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edhelashello everyone, I'm planning to work on some XEPs in the upcoming days. I've already done some work on the OMEMO XEP based on the discussions that we had during the FOSDEM Summit of this year.
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edhelaswhat is the best way to submit it, should I do a PR ?
SamWhitededhelas: Yes please!
edhelasperfect :) I'll do that asap
edhelasalso I'm (finally) planning to work on the Bookmark XEP
jonaswSamWhited: are you watching the xeps repo or shall one notify the editors team directly when one issues a PR?
SamWhitedjonasw: It will email me when someone opens a PR
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jonaswokay thanks
SamWhited(yes, watching, what you said)
Flowlskdjf: small patch incoming :)
edhelasSamWhited, because I'm changing how OMEMO bundles are published and retrieved, should I bump the urn:xmpp:omemo to :1 ?
edhelasit seems that no clients is currently using urn:xmpp:omemo:0 for now
Flowmoparisthebest: source-to-source is often worse than source-to-IR
SamWhitededhelas: Sounds like that's a breaking change, so I'd think so, but I'm not sure. You could chat with daniel about the change maybe
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danielafaik andy is going to bump to omemo:1 pretty soon anyway
Flowedhelas: I think you should have coordinated your changes with the authors
edhelasit's not done yet :)
edhelasjust wondering so I can actually coordinate
Flowbut if they are small enough, just issuing an PR may be also without that mutch overhead
Flowi've heard that there is a secret MUC where all the OMEMO devs idle around
Flowbut maybe it's just a rumor
edhelasthey are all encrypted :(
lovetoxso how far is the movim implementation of omemo?
edhelasfor now on pause, that's why I'd like to work on the XEP first
edhelasI think that I'll work on it in a month of two (got some other things to implement first)
lovetoxok but if i remember the thing right about bundles, this was only a cosmetic change, nothing which would you hold back in an implementation
lovetoxor is there more you want to change?
edhelasmostly how the bundles are published for no
edhelashttps://edhelas.movim.eu/0384.xml
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nycoSamWhited, I propose this as a starting point: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/294
nycoarc, please add PyCon stuff, sorry...
jonaswnyco: did you mean to ping Guus?
nycooh, as well, you're right... and you jonasw as well ;-)
nycoping all, in fact ;-)
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lovetoxhow do i find out if im still in a room?
jonaswlovetox: MUCs? I think Ge0rG knows a bit about that.
lovetoxif i send a ping to the muc it answers with service unavailable, but im in it and it works
Ge0rGlovetox: you need to send a ping to your nickname
lovetoxahh
lovetoxnice idea ^^
Ge0rGlovetox: and then wait for the ping response, not for a reflection of the request
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Ge0rGlovetox: you need to ping periodically, and have a sufficiently high timeout (maybe 30-60s?)
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lovetoxhm why though? i have only the problem that gajim doesnt rejoin a channel if the stream management resume fails for some reason
lovetoxso i intending only on reconnect to send a ping
jonaswlovetox: if resume fails, you can know for sure that you’re not in the muc anymore
Ge0rGOld yaxim used to ignore IQs when too many were received, which tripped on a series of self pings from poezio
jonasw(the server should’ve sent unavailable presence for you)
lovetoxjonasw, yeah right ...
Ge0rGlovetox: what jonasw said
lovetoxok thanks for the help
jonaswif you *had* stream management before. If you didn’t, you cannot know really (unless you managed to replace your old resource, but this is trickerlyand).
jonasw*trickeryland
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lovetoxlets assume everyone has streammanagement :D
Ge0rGlovetox: you can't rely on unavailable presence, and some servers don't properly synchronize you if you send a join to an "already joined" MUC. Best workaround is to send presence unavailable right before the join
jonaswGe0rG: you’re saying we can’t rely on "if the stream resumption fails, the server has sent unavailable presence and we can re-join"?
jonasw*re-join without trickery
Ge0rGAnd then you need to perform a magic mushroom rain dance and sacrifice a goat
jonaswor wait it out until MIX sweeps away all that tricky state :)
Ge0rGjonasw: I'm sure MIX will have its fair share of tricky state
jonaswGe0rG: prevent it by reading the standard closely and fixing it before it becomes Draft :)
Ge0rGjonasw: let's see when I find another two hours
jonasw#iliketrains
edhelasI'm currently working on the Bookmark 2.0 XEP here https://lite5.framapad.org/p/OlHwr5GBlY (go to the bottom of the page)
jonasw"CAN" is not an RFC 2119 word
edhelasthanks :)
jonaswalso, since you’re asking inline, MIX doesn’t need that anymore, MIXes are in the roster and annotated as MIXes
Ge0rGjonasw [20:08]:
> Ge0rG: you’re saying we can’t rely on "if the stream resumption fails, the server has sent unavailable presence and we can re-join"?
No, I'm saying that if you were in the MUC before, and aren't any more, it's better to send presence unavailable
edhelasjonasw, ok perfect
edhelasso maybe I should simply remove this part
jonaswGe0rG: like, always, even if I left intentionally?
jonaswGe0rG: why sending unavailable twice?
Ge0rGjonasw: no, in that case you'll be fine probably. Unless there was an s2s interruption while you tried to leave
jonaswedhelas: I am not deeply familiar with PEP and such, does PEP work well if different xeps building on it use pubsub collections?
jonaswGe0rG: the s2s link hopefully uses SM as well.
edhelaswell that where the definition of PEP is unclear
Ge0rGjonasw: I'm not aware of any s2s links with SM enabled
jonaswedhelas: at least, the node names are shared between different PEP usecases, so I’d worry about conflicts there
edhelasfor me PEP can be a Pubsub node created under a user JID
edhelasjonasw, good remark
jonaswedhelas: another thing: I’m not sure if PEP allows multiple items per node. I think Zash mentioned that it’s not necessarily given that having multiple items is possible.
jonasw(well, it might *allow* it, but may not guarantee it)
ZashPersisting multiple items, or persisting at all isn't guaranteed
edhelasjonasw, then 0277, 0330 and the proposal of OMEMO that I'm doing are broken :)
ZashI don't remember if there were distinct features advertised for all types
jonaswedhelas: reference for roster-stuff: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing
edhelasjonasw, yup found it, thanks
jonaswedhelas: have you considered <group/> for consistency with the roster itself instead of <tag/>?
edhelasjonasw, I do
jonasw(not saying that <group/> is a good name)
edhelasthe thing is that I'm even wondering if this <tag> thing should maybe be moved to another XEP
jonaswwhy?
edhelasthen we can actually tags Pubsub items
edhelasin general
jonaswhm
edhelasalso i'd really like to be able to tag Pubsub nodes, is it possible to tag MIX as well ?
jonaswI sure hope that it’s possible to add <group/>s to MIX roster entries
jonaswwe should ping steve about that
edhelasactually now I'm simply wondering if the Bookmarks 2.0 will not be useless with MIX
jonaswit may very well be
jonaswif it’s primary use case is MUCs
edhelasactually I was also dreaming about having browsers bookmarks sync over XMPP :D
jonaswedhelas: maybe ask steve about the <group/> thing for MIX roster entries on-list, i.e. if it’s possible to modify the groups of MIX roster entries like normal roster entries
edhelasI'll :)
edhelasthanks for all the tips !
jonaswyou’re welcome!
edhelasI'll also continue to review the MIX XEP, I already made some comments and remarks on it
edhelasI'd really like to clarify everything to be sure that we cover all the use cases
jonaswyes
jonaswalthough at this point I think I need to implement it before I can further comment on it
edhelaspersonnally I don't see it directly as a MUC remplaceant
edhelasI'm planning to publish Atom items on it to really have a social network usage of it
jonaswI think it’ll serve as a muc replacement for many of the mundane uses
edhelasso now I'm wondering how we will be able to handle comments :D
edhelasor "threads" in MUC discussions
jonaswedhelas: re comments: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html
jonaswre threads: there is the <thread/> element from RFC 6121, but nobody has come up with a good UI for it yet
edhelasmhhh
jonasw(you could also use the <thread/> thing for comments in fact, if you control the participating clients and UI)
edhelasI think that this need to be clarified
edhelasI'll try to read on it
jonaswthere is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0201.html
edhelasare you planning to work on an implementation, in which client/server ?
jonaswI’m planning to work on MIX in aioxmpp
jonasw(client library)
edhelasok
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SamWhitedjonasw: not immediately necessary, but if you're going to make some changes to ecaps2 is there any chance I could get you to also add registry submissions to it? Eg. in the XEP that defines the registry it should have a little snippet of XML to include in the XEP (which is also what goes in the registry). Eg. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html#registrar-reg-features
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jonaswSamWhited: ah, yes
SamWhitedIf not I can make something up, but I figured you'd have more context and could write a better description.
SamWhitedthanks!
jonaswfor some odd reason I haven’t seen those when I was looking at examples
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jonaswbtw, is anyone here using emacs to edit XEPs?
jonaswor spacemacs rather?
SamWhitedyah, they probably don't all have them
SamWhitedI need to update the disco-features registry to support provisional entries too; I just really hate looking at XML / XSLT so I haven't gotten around to trying to figure it out.
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jonaswI like XSLT
jonaswlet me know what you need.
jonaswis there a stream features registry?
SamWhitedooh, if you really want too, the registries are located here: https://github.com/xsf/registrar
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SamWhitedFor the namespaces registry, I updated the vars.xsl and vars-xml.xsl file (which generate the HTML and the actual XML registry, respectively) to support a <status/> element on each entry, which would create a separate "Provisional" table for things that are still experimental (when things go to draft the provisional label goes away and they go into the actual registry)
SamWhitedthe same needs to be done for features.xsl and features-xml.xsl
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jonaswwill do one I figured out how a stream feature registration shall look like
SamWhitedI'm not actually sure if there's a stream features registry
jonaswthere is an XML file at least
SamWhitedoh yah, sure enough
SamWhitedI guess that one probably needs its XSLT files updated too
jonaswI also see from xep 53 that I should’ve appended :0 to the namespace
jonaswshall I do that now, while I’m at it, to have it consistent?
SamWhitedjonasw: You can if you want, but you could also wait until there was a breaking change and it would be fine; it's just a convention, but not having it (and then adding it) is the same as having it and bumping the version, it just changes the string :)
jonaswyeah
jonaswwas just wondering.
Ge0rGjonasw: you like XML meta stuff? PARS still needs a schema, and I'd appreciate some support with that
jonaswGe0rG: unfortunately, I’m not good at schemas
jonaswI only understand the very basics
jonaswSamWhited: added a commit to my PR, let me know if that’s the format that’s needed
SamWhitedThanks! Works for me
jonaswSamWhited: I may be wrong, but I think Disco features already get a provisional table
SamWhitedjonasw: I don't see it, but maybe I forgot how this works
jonaswwhen I generate the HTML locally, I see this: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/vZytdqh1MtbxSWpbTeSj9FZRULo_RCjCdudkVoN8rzY.png
SamWhitedoh, maybe I'm looking at the wrong xsl file
jonaswI think so. features.xsl is for stream features if I’m not mistaken.
SamWhitedyah, I'm looking at the stream features one
Guusjonasw, I'm going to hijack your travis commit, k?
jonaswGuus: feel free
jonaswI totally forgot about it in the meantime
jonaswthe build took more than a few seconds to start and then I forgot about it
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jonaswit’s missing ; fi on those if lines
Guusnot any more...
jonaswah cool :)
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jonaswthanks!
Guusdon't thank me just yet...
Guusooh, green
jonaswbut it didn’t run with two versions
Guusso... if I now break one of the json files, it should fail again, right?
jonaswno, it’s:
matrix:
- python: 2.7
- python: 3.3
if I read the diff correctly
jonaswbuidls with different python versions should look like this: https://travis-ci.org/horazont/aioxmpp/builds/213925500 (there should be sub-builds for each version)
jonaswGuus: we need to talk what to do about those three or four pull requests for renewals which already came in in the mean time
jonaswI’m fine if you merge them, then I’ll rebase my updates to the tooling on top of them
jonaswand then we can merge the tooling updates. Even though I’d like to mention that this touches the template files and iteam may want to take a quick look at the diffs as due diligence
Guusjonasw: that might be best
Guustobias, kev, intosi ^
jonasweven though the diff is very trivial this time: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/290/files#diff-01d6617e31aefee1df9589f998afb6de
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GuusI like how already, people are modifying their entries
jonaswindeed
Guuslots of bigger and smaller website updates
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Guusheh, sco0ter links to http://xmpp.rocks which he redirects :)
jonaswlet me know when you’re done merging
GuusDone
Guusare you addressing https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/193 too, btw
Guus(make the list sortable/filterable?)
jonaswI‘m not
Guuscould you? :)
jonaswhaven’t looked into the magic done for the xep list
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jonaswthat’s verging into the space of javascript, which I try to avoid
SamWhitedjonasw: Awesome; thanks!
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GuusI know the feeling
jonaswGuus: updated my PR with new data
jonaswGuus: let us take that issue up when the renewal deadline is over.
jonaswthen we’ll have a clear list of platforms
jonaswthen we may decide how to present them
jonaswI have different ideas in mind, but they won’t work if we have a mess of platforms
Guuswhatever works
GuusI don't care to much either way
Guusheh, there's another client update :)
Guusfeel like rebasing once more, jonasw?
jonaswsure
jonaswalthough I‘d rather wait to a point where someone can merge the updates afterwards
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Guus?
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jonaswwell, it’s easier to rebase them in a large batch
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jonaswless overhead
Guusstill not sure what you mean
Guusbut, if you rebase once more, I'll merge
jonaswah!
jonaswthen it’s fine :)
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jonaswGuus: done!
GuusI'm assuming you didn't sneak in anything nasty in this last commit... :)
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jonaswyou could grep over the touched files and see if anything outside data has been touched and take a quick look
jonaswgit will even show it to you when you do the merge I think
jonaswtravis passed
moparisthebestaw total missed chance to rootkit the server jonasw
jonaswtips his white hat to moparisthebest
moparisthebestjonasw, I clicked on your image earlier, do you run your own dnssec capable dns servers or what?
moparisthebestI rarely see the lock in my browser except on my own sites and debian.org...
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jonaswmoparisthebest: yes
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jonaswalthough I wonder what image you’re talking about :)
jonaswI guessed that this was the lock you were talking about, but not which image ;-)
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jonaswoh it has DANE, but not for HTTPS
jonaswwas more trouble than worth it
moparisthebestoh you rotate keys with letsencrypt too?
moparisthebestI keep the same key, just get new certs, and DANE pins my key
jonaswwith the amount of HTTPS domains, it doesn’t scale to maintain the TLSAs. the gain is virtually zero compared to XMPP and SMTP (where I *do* maintain TLSA)
jonaswI don’t rotate keys, but still.
moparisthebestyea the gain is 0 because only the 4 people running that plugin validate them :)
moparisthebestbut if you don't rotate keys it should be easy to add one record per domain
moparisthebestone day when I add DANE support to conversations it'll check it for https too
jonaswthose are a lot of domains though.
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Guusif someone else could merge my renewals... (feels wrong to do it myself)
jonaswI can’t ;-)
moparisthebestjonasw, what server(s) are you using for dns? are they geographically seperated and such?
jonaswmoparisthebest: pdns on a host in .de, I have backups in .at and in another facility in .de
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Guusallrighty
Guusthanks for the had work jonasw
GuusI'm off to watch some tv
jonaswyou’re welcome
jonaswgood luck
GuusI'll need it
Guusmy wife promised me 'trash tv' :S
jonaswstay away from the news.
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Guusohh, the trainwreck that's the US vote
Guusthat'd be good
Guusgrabs popcorn
moparisthebestjonasw, thanks I'm always curious about other's dnssec setups since it's such a pain :)
jonaswwith powerdns it’s very trivial really. at least if you don’t mind keeping the keys online
jonaswit takes care of ZSK rollovers by itself
jonasw(and you can of course keep a backup KSK offline if you want to)
moparisthebestI run bind9 at my house as a hidden primary, then use https://freedns.afraid.org/secondary/, https://puck.nether.net/dns/dnsinfo, https://acc.rollernet.us/dns/secondary.php (2 servers) as 'free secondaries' to actually publically host it
Guuscould a couple of you +/- https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/275 please?
moparisthebestso 4 different NS server locations, 3 different organizations, I feel fairly confident they won't all go down at once
GuusI don't mind much not doing it either (although I think it'd be nice), but I'd like to know the general feeling
GuusSamWhited: is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/279 this something that you can fix?
jonaswI feel too new to the whole thing to comment on that on the issue, but I don’t have any strong opinion one way or the other either.
jonaswmoparisthebest: that sounds reasonable ;-)
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moparisthebestjonasw, bind9 rolls over ZSKs by itself too, still have never rolled over my KSKs yet, but if it's good enough for IANA with .com and .org and such then it's good enough for me :)
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SamWhitedGuus: I don't know how any of the website stuff is generated or where the refs come from, sorry
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bearSamWhited Guus -- if those links are broken then we need to add them to the nginx redirect list to fix them
Guusbear: yes please! i have more redirect candidates, but just went to bed.
bearit's ok - I didn't realize it would auto-expand, now i'll be more careful
ZashI can turn it off
bearnope - I don't think that's needed - again, it's just me not having been in channel recently to know better
bearIMO it's more helpful to default to XEPs than web stuff
ZashThe way it's written, the repo and the room JID are tied together. ( https://code.zash.se/riddim/file/tip/plugins/github.lua if anyone wanna poke around )
XSF Discussion - 2017-03-23