Github doesn't have a way to diff between the old version of a PR and the new version, does it?
MattJ
You can diff between arbitrary revisions if you figure out the URL format
Guus
Not sure exactly what you mean
Flow
Tobias: it does but is very well hidden
Tobias
Guus, a student did a PR, i provided feedback, he updated the PR based on the feedback. now i want a diff between the changes he made
Tobias
i remember some people working around by only adding commits and squashing them in the end after the review
Flow
Tobias: that is my prefered workflow
Guus
ah, he already squashed? Not sure if you can look at the previous commit - didn't that disappear after the history got rewritten by the squash?
Tobias
i'm just more used to the gerrit work flow
Guus
note that i'm somehwat of a git novice. Listen to Flow.
Tobias
Guus, not really...the feedback changes basically were amended to the original commit
MattJbacks away slowly
Guus
MattJ don't make eye-contact, and remain calm. Do not run.
intosi
MattJ: it's safe here. We have reflog.
jonasw
Guus: you could try https://github.com/$user/$repository/compare/$commitA..$commitB
jonasw
if you still have the commit IDs somewhere
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Guus
jonasw: i will not, but perhaps Tobias would like to.
jonasw
uh, I accidentally killed my muc history, sorry :)
Tobias
jonasw, ta...will give that a shot :)
Tobias
jonasw, sadly..the old commit is gone
jonasw
Tobias: :(
jonasw
then I’m afraid there’s no way
Tobias
luckily the PR isn't that large
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dwd
Orphaned commits aren't pushed, but if you pulled it before you should still have it.
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Flow
hmm i just noticed that https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/ link to a XSF feed at http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/rss.xml which doesn't appear to get updated any more
Flow
same for http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/refs/, although I'm not sure what is supposed to be at this location
Flow
can we create a github issue, trello card, $note-somewhere, reminding us to fix this so that we can forget about it? :)
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goffi
Hi, small pubsub question: can an entity with "publish-only" affiliation retrieve its own items? It can for other ones, but it's not clear for its own. It seems this affiliation can fulfil a feature I need.
goffi
it *can't* for other ones
Guus
Flow: please create a new issue here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues
Guus
I eventually start annoying people to fix those
goffi
ralphm: hi, you probably can answer my question ^ :)
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intosi
goffi: I would say it would not be allowed to retrieve any items.
intosi
That would include its own.
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Guus
intosi: It has been a couple of weeks - https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/243
intosi
Indeed.
intosi
:)
Guus
Tobias, can https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/204 be closed?
So, who has anything nice to say about Ryan Eatmon, Jeremie Miller, Julian Missig, Thomas Muldowney and/or Dave Smith? In particular, why they're emeritus members of the XMPP Standards Foundation?
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Guus
I don't know any of them, but feel that we should give them a bit more credit
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Tobias
well, Jeremie Miller started the whole mess IIRC
Zash
I recognize one of those names.
Zash
Are the others from before my time?
Guus
I'd love that for Jeremie. "Jeremie Miller - he started this whole mess."
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Tobias
Zash, who of them isn't before from your time?
Tobias
Guus, yeha..don't quote me on that ;)
Guus
but, if anyone can write a paragraph on any one of them, please add it here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/275
Zash
Tobias: right
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Ge0rG
Kev: with your iteam hat on, are you okay with the maintenance burden imposed by https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt ?
Ge0rG
Or is the handling of such PRs something that Guus can take care of until the website situation has been clarified?
Tobias
Ge0rG, i don't see any maintainance burden for the iteam in there
Guus
(why me?)
Tobias
because you've been most active on github from all...that's the reward you receive for that ;)
Ge0rG
Guus: you are the only one I know who's actively maintaining the website. But this is probably due to my ignorance of all the others doing hard work, sorry.
Guus
we need more naming and shaming!
Guus
https://github.com/orgs/xsf/people
Guus
there
Guus
those all have access, i think.
Ge0rG
Basically I need a volunteer to merge the PRs, I can take care of preparing / reviewing them
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Guus
I shall be happy to push the bright green button
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Ge0rG
Guus: thanks very much!
Guus
also: where's the blog post(s)?!
Ge0rG
Guus: I'll make one with the contents of
Ge0rG
https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt
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Guus
works for me :)
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nyco
to make it even more "official": https://linuxfr.org/news/rencontre-xmpp-jabber-par-jabberfr-mardi-28-mars-2017-a-19-h-a-paris
nyco
sorry, not English
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Guus
ah, cool
Guus
nyco, can I tempt you to maintain the list that is now on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meetups on our website instead?
Guus
The alternative is that we delete the existing but outdated event page: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/276
Guus
(which I already did, but the PR has not been merged yet)
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nyco
Guus, what's wrong with the maintenance? I did that page, and it looks good to me, so please guide me ;-)
Guus
nyco, You are referring to the wiki page, I assume?
Guus
this page lists old information: https://xmpp.org/community/events.html
Guus
"Summit 19 will be held once again in Brussels in February 2016"
Guus
We should either update it, or remove it.
Guus
the wiki page is pretty similar - so, I was thinking that instead of having both pages, we'd combine everything on https://xmpp.org/community/events.html
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Guus
that, or delete that page.
Guus
(the Lanyrd link shows feb 1st, 2013, as the most uptodate entry)
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nyco
whatever is best...
nyco
I guess the website has more visibility?
nyco
hey, can I blog on xmpp.org about the French/Paris meetup?
Guus
yes to all
nyco
generally, you may want to go to Reddit website and find the XMPP subreddit, and there you might wanna upvote some articles and comments, and add your positive/insightful comments
(not linking directly, because don't wanna generate fake traffic that will be penalised)
Ge0rG
Guus: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/282
Ge0rGis also ready to "send" the mail out
Guus
Ge0rg: did you testrun this?
Guus
I think the title might be to long for comfort
Ge0rG
Guus: negative.
Ge0rG
Guus: haven't looked into rendering xmpp.org locally yet, merely pandocced it once
Ge0rG
Guus: do you have ideas for a catchier title?
Ge0rG
"XMPP Software Developers: Action Required" is the mail subject
fyi: vagrant up && vagrant ssh then: cd /vagrant && make devserver website on http://localhost:8000
Zash
But ... a static site...
Guus
Zash: try and see.
Zash
bash: vagrant: command not found
Ge0rG
it looks like `./develop_server.sh start` launches that server
Guus
apt-get install vagrant ?
Zash
Guus: Permission denied
Zash
I'm not someone who's going to install things like that
jonasw
works fine without vagrant :)
jonasw
(assuming you install pelican and its dependencies…)
Ge0rG
Guus: changed title
Guus
Ge0rG: I added screenshots pre title-change
Guus
see comment
Guus
jonasw: obviously, but I'm not someone that's going to install all tools for each project on my laptop without some virtualization. Keeps me sane. :)
jonasw
it’s not a trivial trade-off
Guus
Zash: the entire point of installing that is that you can then install other stuff in virtual machines, instead of directly on your laptop :)
Guus
jonasw: true, but it works for me.
Guus
I'm a freelancer, dancing around several customers, each with their own projects and project dependencies.
Guus
at some point, 3 different versions of the same database software gets annoying :)
jonasw
I’m frequently running out of disk space. The only thing I find which is reclaimable are the dozens of vagrant-based VMs.
Guus
hah :)
Guus
yeah, but I gladly pay for some extra disk space. That's the cheapest of resources
jonasw
(which is the trade-off: isolation vs. disk space)
Guus
(docker might actually be a better solution for many of my problems, but I've not looked into that good enough)
jonasw
it may be, but it’s still expensive…
jonasw
docker doesn’t help much with that
Ge0rG
Guus: commented on your comments :P
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Ge0rG
"I'm calling you to tell you that I sent you an email"
Guus
the new title fits nicely, btw
Guus
Ge0rg: you removed a blank line in your second commit, was that intentional?
jonasw
Guus: > and merged the first two paragraphs to improve the preview.
jonasw
probably yes
Guus
ah, sorry
Guus
kk
Ge0rG
Guus: yes, it moves "the XSF Board has decided that all implementations have to reapply once per year" into the preview
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Guus
new screenshots
jonasw
do we have a more fitting category than "misc"?
Ge0rG
jonasw: pondered that as well
Guus
you can simply make one up
Guus
but make one that's re-usable
Guus
XSF Organisational exists, but I'm not sure if it's fitting
Ge0rG
Guus: nope
Ge0rG
I pondered about that as well. Maybe "Software"?
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Ge0rG
But it would be the first one.
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Ge0rG
I'd also like to have something to file "Easy XMPP" under
Guus
I don't have a preference
jonasw
"State of the Union"
Zash
"Federation" is a nice word
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Zash
We need to steal it back from the OStatus people
jonasw
"State of the Federation"?
Ge0rG
Federation of the State?
Guus
Sounds like Star Trek.
Ge0rG
State of the State?
Zash
Federated State of the Union?
nyco
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/283
nyco
please someone to review?
Ge0rG
Guus: I'd like to get the mail out, and I proclaim that 282 is now good enough[tm]
jonasw
+1
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Guus
Ge0rG: merged. It should pop up on the website anywhere in the next few weeks.
Guus
(hours, likely)
Guus
nyco, reviewing
Ge0rG
Guus: thanks very much! :)
nyco
Guus, thx
Guus
nyco: title is just a tad to long
Ge0rG
Mail sent. Another day well spent.
Flow
Thanks Ge0rg
Ge0rG
I can't even imagine how some entries landed on that list... like Apple Messages.
Ge0rG
Flow: rush to the githubs! Your library is in danger!
Flow
Ge0rG, shall I do the trial run?
intosi
Ge0rG: you might not like it, but it supports XMPP, and I know folks who actually prefer it.
Ge0rG
jonasw: your README is b0rked:
$ ./update-entry clients.json yaxim
zsh: no such file or directory: ./update-entry
Flow
hmm json
jonasw
Ge0rG: meh.
Flow
does the timestamp require a hour and minute, and if so, why?
Ge0rG
Flow: now is too late to complain
Flow
not complaining, just asking
Flow
are there plans to add a "last release" column?
Ge0rG
intosi: is it the default iOS app? How do you add XMPP to it?
Guus
Flow: that was discussed, but it was noted that that might be a false classifier: some software that has not been released in ages is pretty stable.
Flow
or how about adding an mail address field, which will receive mails a month before expirey
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Guus
Flow: I like the email idea.
Ge0rG
Flow: naaah
Ge0rG
Flow: we want active entries, not people who barely care enough.
Guus
Ge0rG: I shall forget to update my entries, even if I'm one of the people managing the site where they're listed.
intosi
Ge0rG: it's default on OS X. And you add an account by going to the Messages menu, then Add Account, then select Jabber.
intosi
* select Other, then select Jabber.
intosi
Haven't checked on iOS.
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Ge0rG
I'd like to see more info on that page, but "last release date" might not be the most important one.
Guus
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/284 is correct, jonasw?
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Guus
Flow, you might as well drop the 'SE' ?
Flow
Guus: why?
Guus
it's hardly relevant? Hey, keep it if you want :)
Flow
it don't think Smack would work on Java ME (if that's still a thing)
dwd
What about EE, does that still exist?
Guus
jigsaw ftw!
Flow
exists, sure, is it a thing, don't care
Ge0rG
Guus: what would be better? collect all the software renewals in one PR or make individual PRs per app?
Guus
don't really care.
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Guus
Flow: not sure if your timestamp needs a zone?
Guus
jonasw?
Flow
example didn't had one IIRC
Guus
kk
Guus
I'll squash and merge
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jonasw
sorry, was AFK
Guus
Can we make Travis check the format of those JSON files?
jonasw
Guus: if it builds the website, it checks the JSON files
Guus
which would safeguard against typo's?
jonasw
hmm, entries with malformatted timestamps are simply omitted and do not raise a hard error currently
jonasw
Flow: didn’t give it much thought which information to include in the timestamp. it is in UTC though (without the explicit Z) because I didn’t want to open the timezone can of worms
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Ge0rG
jonasw: "Use the tool as described in the previous section to perform a renewal (this will sort the list correctly to minimize future diffs)" is a lie, it doesn't sort :(
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jonasw
it does sort the keys
jonasw
it doesn’t sort the applications, that’s true
Ge0rG
jonasw: that's the opposite of what I'd like to have actually ;)
Ge0rG
I'd rather have "name" first
Ge0rG
and the applications sorted
jonasw
Ge0rG: I can’t force the json module to do a specific key sorting
jonasw
which means that without sorted keys, we would end up with random sorts on each save
jonasw
which is very bad
Ge0rG
Yay for python json
jonasw
it’s based on a security feature
Ge0rG
jonasw: but you could sort the applications in the array by name, couldn't you? :D
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jonasw
yes, that’s possible
mathieui
jonasw, can’t you use PYTHONHASHSEED?
mathieui
to fix the dict key order
jonasw
mathieui: and find a hash seed which happens to do what we want?
jonasw
interesting hack.
mathieui
:D
jonasw
requries everyone to set PYTHONHASHSEED though ;-)
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jonasw
(you can’t set it from within python)
jonasw
Ge0rG: I’ll make a PR which will make a nasty diff and sorts the entries, and then we can discuss there if we want to do that
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Ge0rG
jonasw: +1
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Ge0rG
damn, I was too slow in adding Bruno, now it's a new PR
jonasw
ah, nice, it doesn’t even produce a diff
Guus
You snooze, you loose, Ge0rG
Ge0rG
Guus: jonasw is at fault, I was following the README and got confused about the non-sorting
jonasw
blame shifting!
Ge0rG
jonasw: incorrect documentation :P
Guus
I have a hard time having a serious discussion with someone that just added a software entry named "bruno the jabber bear"
jonasw: Ge0rg appears to be making up info categories, is that ocrrect?
Ge0rG
Guus: what about the person that is maintaining Bruno the Jabber Bear for over four years now?
Guus
jonasw: you need to change that newline in data/libraries.json?
jonasw
Guus: it is what happens when you run the tool on the file
Guus
k
Ge0rG
Guus: you mean the ones in clients.json? I think we need to rework them all, categorically
jonasw
the tool doesn’t put a newline on the end, I ran it to canonicalise
jonasw
ack, Ge0rG
jonasw
ideally, we would have them worked out in such a way that we can automatically split the tables on them as has been proposed in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/193
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Ge0rG
jonasw: yes please. We can work together on a canonic list of platforms
splitting for common mobile OSes probably makes sense
Tobias
just allow multiple OS categories
jonasw
we do
Ge0rG
My special favorite is the unterminated "("
dwd
Ge0rG, That had my OCD kick in.
jonasw
sorry, my fault
Guus
")"
jonasw
that was my code foolishly splitting on / when creating the entries. the "Mobile (Android, Blackberry (BBOS), Nokia Symbian S40" belongs to the "S60 and Asha)" one later
dwdbreathes.
jonasw
I’m preparing a cleanup now
Ge0rG
jonasw: good dea to properly refactor it now.
jonasw
and then have a keen eye on the PRs
Tobias
dwd, just open your scheme handbook for medication
Guus
jonasw: we ideally have some sort of script that checks for this, which we can hook up on travis or another github check.
jonasw
can do
Ge0rG
what's the current name of OS X? "macOS"?
Tobias
macOS
jonasw
can we agree on the list of platforms first though?
jonasw, happy to...if new platform comes up we can always issue another PR
Tobias
that's macOS with small m..otherwise looks fine
jonasw
although, there are those blackberries
Guus
I'd go with "Mobile", and "Mobile (iOS only)" "Mobile (Android only)"
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Tobias
Mobile is implicit with Android and iOS
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jonasw
Guus: I’m doing this with prospect that we might at some point automatically split the table by platform. Having Mobile (iOS) and Mobile (Android) is annoying there.
jonasw
(and another Mobile which implies both)
Ge0rG
jonasw: "MacOS" -> "macOS"
Ge0rG
Guus: -1
Ge0rG
jonasw: maybe "Browser" instead of "Web"?
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jonasw
discuss!
Ge0rG
and what to do with "Console" and "Text-Mode"?
nyco
let's keep it simple?
nyco
console, web, ios, android
jonasw
console isn’t a platform
jonasw
it’s a frontend
Guus
"misc"
Guus
"other"
nyco
no
jonasw
nyco: is your console stuff on MS-DOS, Windows, Linux or whatever runs on my router?
intosi
jonasw: all UI is a front-end.
nyco
"unrelevent"
Ge0rG
jonasw: "Windows" is a frontend to NTOSKRNL
nyco
KISS
Tobias
just allow free tagging for OS values and we try to normalize it on demand as a community?
jonasw
another question, do we want this also for servers? if so, we need to add "*BSD" and "Solaris" to the list :)
dwd
jonasw, "POSIX", and a massive argument as to whether that strictly covers Linux or not.
Ge0rG
Linux is a Unix, so maybe we need a generic Unix?
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jonasw
fun!
Tobias
Ge0rG, not so fast there
Tobias
:P
Ge0rG
jonasw: also rename 'info' into 'platform'
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Ge0rG
it will conviniently move it below 'name'
jonasw
Ge0rG: in the tooling? that’s complicated, it doesn’t apply to libraries
SamWhited
Is Linux a Unix? I don't think that it is; maybe some individual distros pass the Unix specification?
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Guus
You guys made Kev run.
intosi
macOS is a certified UNIX.
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jonasw
seriously though, what to do about Console / Text-Mode?
dwd
jonasw, Nothing?
jonasw
dwd: Nothing as in "keep it" or Nothing as in "drop it"?
Flow
what about non-IM clients?
Ge0rG
I'm slightly for "drop"
dwd
jonasw, It's not a platform, certainly.
dwd
jonasw, So drop it.
jonasw
then we end up with some clients without platformbs
jonasw
because they only specified "Console / Text-Mode" (e.g. Finch and GNU Freetalk"
Flow
like bots and such
jonasw
s/"/)/
jonasw
ugh
Ge0rG
jonasw: remove non-matching items from non-renewed software, let authors sort out
Guuswanders off
jonasw
clever
jonasw
Ge0rG: I’d rather leave it as it is and we sort them out when the software is getting renewed
jonasw
but I’m going to canonicalise those for which it makes sense now
Ge0rG
jonasw: I'm still for renaming "info" into "platform", because programming languages are platforms as well
jonasw
Ge0rG: you could’ve brought that up before it was merged
Ge0rG
jonasw: Guus is too fast.
jonasw
the PR was hanging there for weeks
jonasw
well, at least one
jonasw
(I think)
Guus
I WANDERED OFF!
jonasw
hm, maybe only two days
Ge0rG
jonasw: I'm not in the habit of opening and reading random PRs
jonasw
"the plans were there in the local planning department on Alpha Centauri"
Holger, daniel: engage your lawyers! https://twitter.com/Xabber_XMPP/status/844865634672435200
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jonasw
Guus: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/289
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Ge0rG
jonasw: neither "Blackberry" nor "Nokia Symbian" make sense.
jonasw
i have no idea
Flow
hmm I wonder if kontalk and conversations.im got a similar letter
jonasw
it was written there in Mobile (…)
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Guus
jonasw: I will definately forget to do the manual checks at some point. Please make travis fail when desired.
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Ge0rG
jonasw: it's slightly similar to writing "Unix"
jonasw
Guus: the issue is that we cannot agree on what is desired
Ge0rG
jonasw: I propose "other mobile" for platforms that lost the mobile platform war
Guus
jonasw: that does not take away the fact that travis should fail on a to-be-determined list
jonasw
okay
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Guus
can you do linting of the json files too?
jonasw
will do
Guus
💕
goffi
intosi: it seems you're right, thanks for the reply. That's unfortunate, I would like that an entity can write/retrieve or or more item(s) without being able to get any other one
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Ge0rG
jonasw: "info" -> "platform"? :D
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jonasw
Ge0rG: it’s on the way… I only have two hands
jonasw
one step after the other
Ge0rG
jonasw: yay! :)
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moparisthebest
wait Ge0rG you have to let the german govt know if you start a server on your machine there? or I read it wrong?
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: if you are running a commercial public service
Zash
Don't forget to register your blog with the ministry of truth.
moparisthebest
so, I ran forums (with private messaging?) and still an IRC server on a hetzner server in germany since 2006, I'm breaking german law since I never contacted anyone?
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: only if you have ads on it, or advertise yourself as a professional somethingsomething
moparisthebest
the forum had ads, the irc server does not
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: the forum qualifies then
moparisthebest
what's the purpose for this anyway? requiring backdoors or?
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: I'll let the authorities know, expect an extradition request soon.
moparisthebest
ha I guess so :)
daniel
Just put up a sign that says it's verboten for Germans to use your service
moparisthebest
maybe huge german hosting companies like hetzner might let foreigners know this...
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: the reason is to have a list of companies providing telecommunication services to the public, to better protect people's privacy and to allow for lawful interception
moparisthebest
those last 2 items are completely contradictory, but whatever :)
moparisthebest
add some doublethink in there and it's fine
Zash
Ge0rG: Is this new?
Zash
Or is this the data retention thing resurfacing?
daniel
Not new. We have always bin at war with Eurasia
moparisthebest
seriously with this definition what *doesn't* constitute as a 'telecommunication service' ?
Ge0rG
Zash: not sure, maybe ten years or so. Not much to do with data retention.
moparisthebest
I think a static html page without javascript might, but that's communication in one direction to multiple people even
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Ge0rG
there is also a public directory of such telco providers, with proper postal addresses given (probably so you can sue them)
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Flow
daniel: did you already saw the Android O preview?
moparisthebest
creepy, so where could you properly host an xmpp server? sealand?
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Zash
define properly
Zash
define your threat model
daniel
Flow, i saw the announcment. https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/844257001668513793
Flow
yep exaclty, note that they also did something similar in the Android M preview
moparisthebest
Zash, properly as being able to just start a server and not register with the ministry of truth first
Flow
and later added the whitelist for battery optimizations
Flow
in the final release
daniel
i'm still a bit unsure if the permission to ignore battery optimizations might not include that as well
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daniel
otherwise how are the playservices supposed to run?
Zash
moparisthebest: I'm not aware of any such requirement in .se. Also pretty sure that anything self-hosted is fine.
Flow
daniel: I hope so, but I also wouldn't be suprised if google made it an system-app exclusive feature
Ge0rG
Android O looks like Android 0.
Zash
Android Zero
daniel
abwarten und tee trinken
Ge0rG
daniel: do you know from your head what is needed to make a foreground notification that's slightly greyed out and not displayed together with actual message notifications? (I don't even know how to properly word what I mean, sigh)
daniel
Ge0rG, low priority
Ge0rG
daniel: thanks!
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Ge0rG
daniel: you could create a Conversations wallpaper service!
Ge0rG: really? let’s see how it plays out without that.
jonasw
would be okay with replacing "Other Mobile" with "Other" though
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Ge0rG
jonasw: might work well enough as well
Ge0rG
jonasw: are those platforms.json for clients only or also for servers and libs?
jonasw
not intended to be used for libs, may be used for servers in the future
jonasw
but currently that’s not enforced
Ge0rG
jonasw: I imagine a common platforms json for server and client is okay, and a separate one for libs
Ge0rG
OTOH, you don't really often need to filter libs by platform.
jonasw
I don’t think we need one for libs, right
Ge0rG
for clients, there is immediate benefit.
Ge0rG
Is the clients.json also hosted somewhere on xmpp.org? I could use it to automatically generate the list in easy-xmpp-invitation
jonasw
it is not, afaik
jonasw
but should be possible
Ge0rG
BTW, it would be nice to also have a description field in the json, though it should be named differently, to be after "name""
Guus
Ge0rG: it obviously is hosted here: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/xsf/xmpp.org/master/data/clients.json
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Ge0rG
Guus: thanks
jonasw
Ge0rG: updated
jonasw
Ge0rG: it wouldn’t be shown on the website then though, right?
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jonasw
Guus: I’m not that good with travis, also I don’t know the environment. However, running
./data/lint-list.py clients.json
./data/lint-list.py servers.json
./data/lint-list.py libraries.json
is what you wanted me to make possible. Those will fail with non-zero exit codes when there are errors.
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Guus
jonasw: travis executes: make html
Guus
does it make sense to hook it into that?
jonasw
Guus: I’d rather add additional commands
Ge0rG
jonasw: "it"?
jonasw
Ge0rG: the description
Ge0rG
jonasw: would it be hard to add?
jonasw
Ge0rG: no, not particularly, but I wonder if that’s the right place.
jonasw
and if it will be well maintained if it isn’t shown on the website, and what’s next
jonasw
also, wasn’t someone else working on a registry of software?
jonasw
or rather, a way for software to publish their manifests
jonasw
then we could simply add a url_manifest or something like that
Guus
jonasw: if I read https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/customizing-the-build/ correctly, you can simply add items to the script directive in .travis
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jonasw
Guus: do you know if python3 is available in the travis build?
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Guus
https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/languages/python/
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jonasw
Guus: this will make different builds with different versions of python.
jonasw
the default appears to be 2.7
jonasw
I have to adapt the linter to work with that
jonasw
which is not trivial because the .casefold() method used for sorting requires python 3.3+
Guus
it is all chinese to me. What happens if we make the entire thing run in python 3.3?
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jonasw
Guus: not sure if pelican survives that. at least it probably makes the environment on the server more different from the environment in travis
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jonasw
I’ll try to figure out a way to make travis run the linting with python 3.3+ and the website build with 2.7
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Guus
I'm not sure what version of python is running on the server in the first place?
jonasw
I don’t know either, but pelican still defaults to 2.7 afaik
intosi
It's a Debian system, so 2.7.
intosi
By default, that is.
intosi
I didn't dare run Pelican with anything else.
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moparisthebest
does anyone know if dino has a muc? or like, any way to find out what xeps it supports than source code spelunking? https://github.com/dino/dino✎
moparisthebest
does anyone know if dino has a muc? or like, any way to find out what xeps it supports other than source code spelunking? https://github.com/dino/dino ✏
intosi
A muc, or muc support?
lskdjf
moparistthebest: we don't have a muc yet, but setting one up is on the todo. And for the supported xeps, they are roughly "listed" here https://github.com/dino/dino/tree/master/xmpp-vala/src/module/xep , although some are only partially implemented
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jonasw
no stream management?
Ge0rG
hi lskdjf, you are one of the devs?
moparisthebest
yea I actually meant 'do they have a muc' but I would have also been interested in if they had xep support
lskdjf
jonasw: no, not yet
moparisthebest
thanks much lskdjf
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: star https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/13 :P
lskdjf
moparisthebest: muc xep support exists, yes
lskdjf
Ge0rG, yes I am
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moparisthebest
star or thumbs up? I only see thumbs up
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: star up and thumb it!
moparisthebest
I thumbed it
Ge0rG
lskdjf: I wanted to pitch https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_XMPP to you :D
moparisthebest
never heard of vala before, looks kind of java-y which I like, will watch closely :)
Holger
moparisthebest: The point of Vala is avoiding C in the GObject/GTK+/GNOME world. The syntax is built around the GObject model and it compiles to C code.
lskdjf
moparisthebest: As far as I read, vala is mainly ment to be c#-like (which again is similar to java...). But it's really nice. I always thought of UI-development being a horror, but I started liking it, vala integrates GTK really nicely.
Holger
moparisthebest: Other than that it's really just yet another totally boring Java/C#-like language yes :-)
moparisthebest
I absolutely *love* the idea of languages compiling to C, I've seen a couple like that
Ge0rG
a totally boring C#-like GTK-only language.
moparisthebest
it's pretty ingenious, then you get compiler and great optimization for free
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dwd
moparisthebest, No, you don't.
dwd
moparisthebest, You get a compiler, sure, but you could have got that by writing an LLVM frontend.
Zash
Doesn't GCC still have better optimizations than LLVM & co?
dwd
moparisthebest, You don't get as good optimization, because you have to have machine generated C in the middle, and that loses both semantics and probably injects a lot of boilerplate.
moparisthebest
it seems like when a new archictecture comes out a C compiler comes with it at minimum, not necessarily llvm output
Zash
But who cares, the CPU will just re-optimize the machine code anyways.
dwd
Zash, Different level. It's not like you can run badly written C and it'll miraculously recompile it.
dwd
Zash, It's more that some of the ASM hand-optimization is done by the CPU these days.
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moparisthebest
dwd, I'm not convinced a compiler author could output good llvm but not good C
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dwd
moparisthebest, More scope, I think, for optimization at the transcoding stage.
moparisthebest
I'm not sure how llvm handles that, if you can have 'optimal' llvm code, how is it optimal across platforms where there are different optimal ways to do things?
moparisthebest
but also it locks you to llvm which doesn't support everything, idk, I still think in theory I like the C idea better, practice may be different
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edhelas
hello everyone, I'm planning to work on some XEPs in the upcoming days. I've already done some work on the OMEMO XEP based on the discussions that we had during the FOSDEM Summit of this year.
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edhelas
what is the best way to submit it, should I do a PR ?
SamWhited
edhelas: Yes please!
edhelas
perfect :) I'll do that asap
edhelas
also I'm (finally) planning to work on the Bookmark XEP
jonasw
SamWhited: are you watching the xeps repo or shall one notify the editors team directly when one issues a PR?
SamWhited
jonasw: It will email me when someone opens a PR
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jonasw
okay thanks
SamWhited
(yes, watching, what you said)
Flow
lskdjf: small patch incoming :)
edhelas
SamWhited, because I'm changing how OMEMO bundles are published and retrieved, should I bump the urn:xmpp:omemo to :1 ?
edhelas
it seems that no clients is currently using urn:xmpp:omemo:0 for now
Flow
moparisthebest: source-to-source is often worse than source-to-IR
SamWhited
edhelas: Sounds like that's a breaking change, so I'd think so, but I'm not sure. You could chat with daniel about the change maybe
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daniel
afaik andy is going to bump to omemo:1 pretty soon anyway
Flow
edhelas: I think you should have coordinated your changes with the authors
edhelas
it's not done yet :)
edhelas
just wondering so I can actually coordinate
Flow
but if they are small enough, just issuing an PR may be also without that mutch overhead
Flow
i've heard that there is a secret MUC where all the OMEMO devs idle around
Flow
but maybe it's just a rumor
edhelas
they are all encrypted :(
lovetox
so how far is the movim implementation of omemo?
edhelas
for now on pause, that's why I'd like to work on the XEP first
edhelas
I think that I'll work on it in a month of two (got some other things to implement first)
lovetox
ok but if i remember the thing right about bundles, this was only a cosmetic change, nothing which would you hold back in an implementation
lovetox
or is there more you want to change?
edhelas
mostly how the bundles are published for no
edhelas
https://edhelas.movim.eu/0384.xml
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nyco
SamWhited, I propose this as a starting point: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/294
nyco
arc, please add PyCon stuff, sorry...
jonasw
nyco: did you mean to ping Guus?
nyco
oh, as well, you're right... and you jonasw as well ;-)
nyco
ping all, in fact ;-)
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lovetox
how do i find out if im still in a room?
jonasw
lovetox: MUCs? I think Ge0rG knows a bit about that.
lovetox
if i send a ping to the muc it answers with service unavailable, but im in it and it works
Ge0rG
lovetox: you need to send a ping to your nickname
lovetox
ahh
lovetox
nice idea ^^
Ge0rG
lovetox: and then wait for the ping response, not for a reflection of the request
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Ge0rG
lovetox: you need to ping periodically, and have a sufficiently high timeout (maybe 30-60s?)
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lovetox
hm why though? i have only the problem that gajim doesnt rejoin a channel if the stream management resume fails for some reason
lovetox
so i intending only on reconnect to send a ping
jonasw
lovetox: if resume fails, you can know for sure that you’re not in the muc anymore
Ge0rG
Old yaxim used to ignore IQs when too many were received, which tripped on a series of self pings from poezio
jonasw
(the server should’ve sent unavailable presence for you)
lovetox
jonasw, yeah right ...
Ge0rG
lovetox: what jonasw said
lovetox
ok thanks for the help
jonasw
if you *had* stream management before. If you didn’t, you cannot know really (unless you managed to replace your old resource, but this is trickerlyand).
jonasw
*trickeryland
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lovetox
lets assume everyone has streammanagement :D
Ge0rG
lovetox: you can't rely on unavailable presence, and some servers don't properly synchronize you if you send a join to an "already joined" MUC. Best workaround is to send presence unavailable right before the join
jonasw
Ge0rG: you’re saying we can’t rely on "if the stream resumption fails, the server has sent unavailable presence and we can re-join"?
jonasw
*re-join without trickery
Ge0rG
And then you need to perform a magic mushroom rain dance and sacrifice a goat
jonasw
or wait it out until MIX sweeps away all that tricky state :)
Ge0rG
jonasw: I'm sure MIX will have its fair share of tricky state
jonasw
Ge0rG: prevent it by reading the standard closely and fixing it before it becomes Draft :)
Ge0rG
jonasw: let's see when I find another two hours
jonasw
#iliketrains
edhelas
I'm currently working on the Bookmark 2.0 XEP here https://lite5.framapad.org/p/OlHwr5GBlY (go to the bottom of the page)
jonasw
"CAN" is not an RFC 2119 word
edhelas
thanks :)
jonasw
also, since you’re asking inline, MIX doesn’t need that anymore, MIXes are in the roster and annotated as MIXes
Ge0rG
jonasw [20:08]:
> Ge0rG: you’re saying we can’t rely on "if the stream resumption fails, the server has sent unavailable presence and we can re-join"?
No, I'm saying that if you were in the MUC before, and aren't any more, it's better to send presence unavailable
edhelas
jonasw, ok perfect
edhelas
so maybe I should simply remove this part
jonasw
Ge0rG: like, always, even if I left intentionally?
jonasw
Ge0rG: why sending unavailable twice?
Ge0rG
jonasw: no, in that case you'll be fine probably. Unless there was an s2s interruption while you tried to leave
jonasw
edhelas: I am not deeply familiar with PEP and such, does PEP work well if different xeps building on it use pubsub collections?
jonasw
Ge0rG: the s2s link hopefully uses SM as well.
edhelas
well that where the definition of PEP is unclear
Ge0rG
jonasw: I'm not aware of any s2s links with SM enabled
jonasw
edhelas: at least, the node names are shared between different PEP usecases, so I’d worry about conflicts there
edhelas
for me PEP can be a Pubsub node created under a user JID
edhelas
jonasw, good remark
jonasw
edhelas: another thing: I’m not sure if PEP allows multiple items per node. I think Zash mentioned that it’s not necessarily given that having multiple items is possible.
jonasw
(well, it might *allow* it, but may not guarantee it)
Zash
Persisting multiple items, or persisting at all isn't guaranteed
edhelas
jonasw, then 0277, 0330 and the proposal of OMEMO that I'm doing are broken :)
Zash
I don't remember if there were distinct features advertised for all types
jonasw
edhelas: reference for roster-stuff: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing
edhelas
jonasw, yup found it, thanks
jonasw
edhelas: have you considered <group/> for consistency with the roster itself instead of <tag/>?
edhelas
jonasw, I do
jonasw
(not saying that <group/> is a good name)
edhelas
the thing is that I'm even wondering if this <tag> thing should maybe be moved to another XEP
jonasw
why?
edhelas
then we can actually tags Pubsub items
edhelas
in general
jonasw
hm
edhelas
also i'd really like to be able to tag Pubsub nodes, is it possible to tag MIX as well ?
jonasw
I sure hope that it’s possible to add <group/>s to MIX roster entries
jonasw
we should ping steve about that
edhelas
actually now I'm simply wondering if the Bookmarks 2.0 will not be useless with MIX
jonasw
it may very well be
jonasw
if it’s primary use case is MUCs
edhelas
actually I was also dreaming about having browsers bookmarks sync over XMPP :D
jonasw
edhelas: maybe ask steve about the <group/> thing for MIX roster entries on-list, i.e. if it’s possible to modify the groups of MIX roster entries like normal roster entries
edhelas
I'll :)
edhelas
thanks for all the tips !
jonasw
you’re welcome!
edhelas
I'll also continue to review the MIX XEP, I already made some comments and remarks on it
edhelas
I'd really like to clarify everything to be sure that we cover all the use cases
jonasw
yes
jonasw
although at this point I think I need to implement it before I can further comment on it
edhelas
personnally I don't see it directly as a MUC remplaceant
edhelas
I'm planning to publish Atom items on it to really have a social network usage of it
jonasw
I think it’ll serve as a muc replacement for many of the mundane uses
edhelas
so now I'm wondering how we will be able to handle comments :D
edhelas
or "threads" in MUC discussions
jonasw
edhelas: re comments: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html
jonasw
re threads: there is the <thread/> element from RFC 6121, but nobody has come up with a good UI for it yet
edhelas
mhhh
jonasw
(you could also use the <thread/> thing for comments in fact, if you control the participating clients and UI)
edhelas
I think that this need to be clarified
edhelas
I'll try to read on it
jonasw
there is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0201.html
edhelas
are you planning to work on an implementation, in which client/server ?
jonasw
I’m planning to work on MIX in aioxmpp
jonasw
(client library)
edhelas
ok
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SamWhited
jonasw: not immediately necessary, but if you're going to make some changes to ecaps2 is there any chance I could get you to also add registry submissions to it? Eg. in the XEP that defines the registry it should have a little snippet of XML to include in the XEP (which is also what goes in the registry). Eg. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html#registrar-reg-features
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jonasw
SamWhited: ah, yes
SamWhited
If not I can make something up, but I figured you'd have more context and could write a better description.
SamWhited
thanks!
jonasw
for some odd reason I haven’t seen those when I was looking at examples
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jonasw
btw, is anyone here using emacs to edit XEPs?
jonasw
or spacemacs rather?
SamWhited
yah, they probably don't all have them
SamWhited
I need to update the disco-features registry to support provisional entries too; I just really hate looking at XML / XSLT so I haven't gotten around to trying to figure it out.
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jonasw
I like XSLT
jonasw
let me know what you need.
jonasw
is there a stream features registry?
SamWhited
ooh, if you really want too, the registries are located here: https://github.com/xsf/registrar
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SamWhited
For the namespaces registry, I updated the vars.xsl and vars-xml.xsl file (which generate the HTML and the actual XML registry, respectively) to support a <status/> element on each entry, which would create a separate "Provisional" table for things that are still experimental (when things go to draft the provisional label goes away and they go into the actual registry)
SamWhited
the same needs to be done for features.xsl and features-xml.xsl
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jonasw
will do one I figured out how a stream feature registration shall look like
SamWhited
I'm not actually sure if there's a stream features registry
jonasw
there is an XML file at least
SamWhited
oh yah, sure enough
SamWhited
I guess that one probably needs its XSLT files updated too
jonasw
I also see from xep 53 that I should’ve appended :0 to the namespace
jonasw
shall I do that now, while I’m at it, to have it consistent?
SamWhited
jonasw: You can if you want, but you could also wait until there was a breaking change and it would be fine; it's just a convention, but not having it (and then adding it) is the same as having it and bumping the version, it just changes the string :)
jonasw
yeah
jonasw
was just wondering.
Ge0rG
jonasw: you like XML meta stuff? PARS still needs a schema, and I'd appreciate some support with that
jonasw
Ge0rG: unfortunately, I’m not good at schemas
jonasw
I only understand the very basics
jonasw
SamWhited: added a commit to my PR, let me know if that’s the format that’s needed
SamWhited
Thanks! Works for me
jonasw
SamWhited: I may be wrong, but I think Disco features already get a provisional table
SamWhited
jonasw: I don't see it, but maybe I forgot how this works
jonasw
when I generate the HTML locally, I see this: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/vZytdqh1MtbxSWpbTeSj9FZRULo_RCjCdudkVoN8rzY.png
SamWhited
oh, maybe I'm looking at the wrong xsl file
jonasw
I think so. features.xsl is for stream features if I’m not mistaken.
SamWhited
yah, I'm looking at the stream features one
Guus
jonasw, I'm going to hijack your travis commit, k?
jonasw
Guus: feel free
jonasw
I totally forgot about it in the meantime
jonasw
the build took more than a few seconds to start and then I forgot about it
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jonasw
it’s missing ; fi on those if lines
Guus
not any more...
jonasw
ah cool :)
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jonasw
thanks!
Guus
don't thank me just yet...
Guus
ooh, green
jonasw
but it didn’t run with two versions
Guus
so... if I now break one of the json files, it should fail again, right?
no, it’s:
matrix:
- python: 2.7
- python: 3.3
if I read the diff correctly
jonasw
buidls with different python versions should look like this: https://travis-ci.org/horazont/aioxmpp/builds/213925500 (there should be sub-builds for each version)
Guus: we need to talk what to do about those three or four pull requests for renewals which already came in in the mean time
jonasw
I’m fine if you merge them, then I’ll rebase my updates to the tooling on top of them
jonasw
and then we can merge the tooling updates. Even though I’d like to mention that this touches the template files and iteam may want to take a quick look at the diffs as due diligence
Guus
jonasw: that might be best
Guus
tobias, kev, intosi ^
jonasw
even though the diff is very trivial this time: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/290/files#diff-01d6617e31aefee1df9589f998afb6de
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Guus
I like how already, people are modifying their entries
jonasw
indeed
Guus
lots of bigger and smaller website updates
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Guus
heh, sco0ter links to http://xmpp.rocks which he redirects :)
jonasw
let me know when you’re done merging
Guus
Done
Guus
are you addressing https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/193 too, btw
Guus
(make the list sortable/filterable?)
jonasw
I‘m not
Guus
could you? :)
jonasw
haven’t looked into the magic done for the xep list
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jonasw
that’s verging into the space of javascript, which I try to avoid
SamWhited
jonasw: Awesome; thanks!
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Guus
I know the feeling
jonasw
Guus: updated my PR with new data
jonasw
Guus: let us take that issue up when the renewal deadline is over.
jonasw
then we’ll have a clear list of platforms
jonasw
then we may decide how to present them
jonasw
I have different ideas in mind, but they won’t work if we have a mess of platforms
Guus
whatever works
Guus
I don't care to much either way
Guus
heh, there's another client update :)
Guus
feel like rebasing once more, jonasw?
jonasw
sure
jonasw
although I‘d rather wait to a point where someone can merge the updates afterwards
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Guus
?
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jonasw
well, it’s easier to rebase them in a large batch
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jonasw
less overhead
Guus
still not sure what you mean
Guus
but, if you rebase once more, I'll merge
jonasw
ah!
jonasw
then it’s fine :)
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jonasw
Guus: done!
Guus
I'm assuming you didn't sneak in anything nasty in this last commit... :)
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jonasw
you could grep over the touched files and see if anything outside data has been touched and take a quick look
jonasw
git will even show it to you when you do the merge I think
jonasw
travis passed
moparisthebest
aw total missed chance to rootkit the server jonasw
jonaswtips his white hat to moparisthebest
moparisthebest
jonasw, I clicked on your image earlier, do you run your own dnssec capable dns servers or what?
moparisthebest
I rarely see the lock in my browser except on my own sites and debian.org...
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jonasw
moparisthebest: yes
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jonasw
although I wonder what image you’re talking about :)
I guessed that this was the lock you were talking about, but not which image ;-)
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jonasw
oh it has DANE, but not for HTTPS
jonasw
was more trouble than worth it
moparisthebest
oh you rotate keys with letsencrypt too?
moparisthebest
I keep the same key, just get new certs, and DANE pins my key
jonasw
with the amount of HTTPS domains, it doesn’t scale to maintain the TLSAs. the gain is virtually zero compared to XMPP and SMTP (where I *do* maintain TLSA)
jonasw
I don’t rotate keys, but still.
moparisthebest
yea the gain is 0 because only the 4 people running that plugin validate them :)
moparisthebest
but if you don't rotate keys it should be easy to add one record per domain
moparisthebest
one day when I add DANE support to conversations it'll check it for https too
jonasw
those are a lot of domains though.
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Guus
if someone else could merge my renewals... (feels wrong to do it myself)
jonasw
I can’t ;-)
moparisthebest
jonasw, what server(s) are you using for dns? are they geographically seperated and such?
jonasw
moparisthebest: pdns on a host in .de, I have backups in .at and in another facility in .de
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Guus
allrighty
Guus
thanks for the had work jonasw
Guus
I'm off to watch some tv
jonasw
you’re welcome
jonasw
good luck
Guus
I'll need it
Guus
my wife promised me 'trash tv' :S
jonasw
stay away from the news.
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Guus
ohh, the trainwreck that's the US vote
Guus
that'd be good
Guusgrabs popcorn
moparisthebest
jonasw, thanks I'm always curious about other's dnssec setups since it's such a pain :)
jonasw
with powerdns it’s very trivial really. at least if you don’t mind keeping the keys online
jonasw
it takes care of ZSK rollovers by itself
jonasw
(and you can of course keep a backup KSK offline if you want to)
moparisthebest
I run bind9 at my house as a hidden primary, then use https://freedns.afraid.org/secondary/, https://puck.nether.net/dns/dnsinfo, https://acc.rollernet.us/dns/secondary.php (2 servers) as 'free secondaries' to actually publically host it
Guus
could a couple of you +/- https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/275 please?
moparisthebest
so 4 different NS server locations, 3 different organizations, I feel fairly confident they won't all go down at once
Guus
I don't mind much not doing it either (although I think it'd be nice), but I'd like to know the general feeling
Guus
SamWhited: is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/279 this something that you can fix?
jonasw
I feel too new to the whole thing to comment on that on the issue, but I don’t have any strong opinion one way or the other either.
jonasw
moparisthebest: that sounds reasonable ;-)
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moparisthebest
jonasw, bind9 rolls over ZSKs by itself too, still have never rolled over my KSKs yet, but if it's good enough for IANA with .com and .org and such then it's good enough for me :)
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SamWhited
Guus: I don't know how any of the website stuff is generated or where the refs come from, sorry
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bear
SamWhited Guus -- if those links are broken then we need to add them to the nginx redirect list to fix them
Guus
bear: yes please! i have more redirect candidates, but just went to bed.
it's ok - I didn't realize it would auto-expand, now i'll be more careful
Zash
I can turn it off
bear
nope - I don't think that's needed - again, it's just me not having been in channel recently to know better
bear
IMO it's more helpful to default to XEPs than web stuff
Zash
The way it's written, the repo and the room JID are tied together. ( https://code.zash.se/riddim/file/tip/plugins/github.lua if anyone wanna poke around )