XSF Discussion - 2017-03-23

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  121. Tobias

    Github doesn't have a way to diff between the old version of a PR and the new version, does it?

  122. MattJ

    You can diff between arbitrary revisions if you figure out the URL format

  123. Guus

    Not sure exactly what you mean

  124. Flow

    Tobias: it does but is very well hidden

  125. Tobias

    Guus, a student did a PR, i provided feedback, he updated the PR based on the feedback. now i want a diff between the changes he made

  126. Tobias

    i remember some people working around by only adding commits and squashing them in the end after the review

  127. Flow

    Tobias: that is my prefered workflow

  128. Guus

    ah, he already squashed? Not sure if you can look at the previous commit - didn't that disappear after the history got rewritten by the squash?

  129. Tobias

    i'm just more used to the gerrit work flow

  130. Guus

    note that i'm somehwat of a git novice. Listen to Flow.

  131. Tobias

    Guus, not really...the feedback changes basically were amended to the original commit

  132. MattJ backs away slowly

  133. Guus

    MattJ don't make eye-contact, and remain calm. Do not run.

  134. intosi

    MattJ: it's safe here. We have reflog.

  135. jonasw

    Guus: you could try https://github.com/$user/$repository/compare/$commitA..$commitB

  136. jonasw

    if you still have the commit IDs somewhere

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  138. Guus

    jonasw: i will not, but perhaps Tobias would like to.

  139. jonasw

    uh, I accidentally killed my muc history, sorry :)

  140. Tobias

    jonasw, ta...will give that a shot :)

  141. Tobias

    jonasw, sadly..the old commit is gone

  142. jonasw

    Tobias: :(

  143. jonasw

    then I’m afraid there’s no way

  144. Tobias

    luckily the PR isn't that large

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  146. dwd

    Orphaned commits aren't pushed, but if you pulled it before you should still have it.

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  148. Flow

    hmm i just noticed that https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/ link to a XSF feed at http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/rss.xml which doesn't appear to get updated any more

  149. Flow

    same for http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/refs/, although I'm not sure what is supposed to be at this location

  150. Flow

    can we create a github issue, trello card, $note-somewhere, reminding us to fix this so that we can forget about it? :)

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  153. goffi

    Hi, small pubsub question: can an entity with "publish-only" affiliation retrieve its own items? It can for other ones, but it's not clear for its own. It seems this affiliation can fulfil a feature I need.

  154. goffi

    it *can't* for other ones

  155. Guus

    Flow: please create a new issue here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues

  156. Guus

    I eventually start annoying people to fix those

  157. goffi

    ralphm: hi, you probably can answer my question ^ :)

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  163. intosi

    goffi: I would say it would not be allowed to retrieve any items.

  164. intosi

    That would include its own.

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  171. Guus

    intosi: It has been a couple of weeks - https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/243

  172. intosi


  173. intosi


  174. Guus

    Tobias, can https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/204 be closed?

  175. Tobias


  176. Guus


  177. intosi


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  179. Guus


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  181. Guus

    So, who has anything nice to say about Ryan Eatmon, Jeremie Miller, Julian Missig, Thomas Muldowney and/or Dave Smith? In particular, why they're emeritus members of the XMPP Standards Foundation?

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  185. Guus

    I don't know any of them, but feel that we should give them a bit more credit

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  188. Tobias

    well, Jeremie Miller started the whole mess IIRC

  189. Zash

    I recognize one of those names.

  190. Zash

    Are the others from before my time?

  191. Guus

    I'd love that for Jeremie. "Jeremie Miller - he started this whole mess."

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  193. Tobias

    Zash, who of them isn't before from your time?

  194. Tobias

    Guus, yeha..don't quote me on that ;)

  195. Guus

    but, if anyone can write a paragraph on any one of them, please add it here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/275

  196. Zash

    Tobias: right

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  205. Ge0rG

    Kev: with your iteam hat on, are you okay with the maintenance burden imposed by https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt ?

  206. Ge0rG

    Or is the handling of such PRs something that Guus can take care of until the website situation has been clarified?

  207. Tobias

    Ge0rG, i don't see any maintainance burden for the iteam in there

  208. Guus

    (why me?)

  209. Tobias

    because you've been most active on github from all...that's the reward you receive for that ;)

  210. Ge0rG

    Guus: you are the only one I know who's actively maintaining the website. But this is probably due to my ignorance of all the others doing hard work, sorry.

  211. Guus

    we need more naming and shaming!

  212. Guus


  213. Guus


  214. Guus

    those all have access, i think.

  215. Ge0rG

    Basically I need a volunteer to merge the PRs, I can take care of preparing / reviewing them

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  217. Guus

    I shall be happy to push the bright green button

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  219. Ge0rG

    Guus: thanks very much!

  220. Guus

    also: where's the blog post(s)?!

  221. Ge0rG

    Guus: I'll make one with the contents of

  222. Ge0rG


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  224. Guus

    works for me :)

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  234. nyco

    to make it even more "official": https://linuxfr.org/news/rencontre-xmpp-jabber-par-jabberfr-mardi-28-mars-2017-a-19-h-a-paris

  235. nyco

    sorry, not English

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  237. Guus

    ah, cool

  238. Guus

    nyco, can I tempt you to maintain the list that is now on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meetups on our website instead?

  239. Guus

    The alternative is that we delete the existing but outdated event page: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/276

  240. Guus

    (which I already did, but the PR has not been merged yet)

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  268. nyco

    Guus, what's wrong with the maintenance? I did that page, and it looks good to me, so please guide me ;-)

  269. Guus

    nyco, You are referring to the wiki page, I assume?

  270. Guus

    this page lists old information: https://xmpp.org/community/events.html

  271. Guus

    "Summit 19 will be held once again in Brussels in February 2016"

  272. Guus

    We should either update it, or remove it.

  273. Guus

    the wiki page is pretty similar - so, I was thinking that instead of having both pages, we'd combine everything on https://xmpp.org/community/events.html

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  275. Guus

    that, or delete that page.

  276. Guus

    (the Lanyrd link shows feb 1st, 2013, as the most uptodate entry)

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  287. nyco

    whatever is best...

  288. nyco

    I guess the website has more visibility?

  289. nyco

    hey, can I blog on xmpp.org about the French/Paris meetup?

  290. Guus

    yes to all

  291. nyco

    generally, you may want to go to Reddit website and find the XMPP subreddit, and there you might wanna upvote some articles and comments, and add your positive/insightful comments (not linking directly, because don't wanna generate fake traffic that will be penalised)

  292. Ge0rG

    Guus: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/282

  293. Ge0rG is also ready to "send" the mail out

  294. Guus

    Ge0rg: did you testrun this?

  295. Guus

    I think the title might be to long for comfort

  296. Ge0rG

    Guus: negative.

  297. Ge0rG

    Guus: haven't looked into rendering xmpp.org locally yet, merely pandocced it once

  298. Ge0rG

    Guus: do you have ideas for a catchier title?

  299. Ge0rG

    "XMPP Software Developers: Action Required" is the mail subject

  300. Ge0rG

    maybe "Change to XMPP Software Listing Rules"?

  301. Ge0rG

    maybe "New XMPP Software Listing Rules"?

  302. Zash

    Never going to give you up .. oh wait yes we are

  303. Guus

    fyi: vagrant up && vagrant ssh then: cd /vagrant && make devserver website on http://localhost:8000

  304. Zash

    But ... a static site...

  305. Guus

    Zash: try and see.

  306. Zash

    bash: vagrant: command not found

  307. Ge0rG

    it looks like `./develop_server.sh start` launches that server

  308. Guus

    apt-get install vagrant ?

  309. Zash

    Guus: Permission denied

  310. Zash

    I'm not someone who's going to install things like that

  311. jonasw

    works fine without vagrant :)

  312. jonasw

    (assuming you install pelican and its dependencies…)

  313. Ge0rG

    Guus: changed title

  314. Guus

    Ge0rG: I added screenshots pre title-change

  315. Guus

    see comment

  316. Guus

    jonasw: obviously, but I'm not someone that's going to install all tools for each project on my laptop without some virtualization. Keeps me sane. :)

  317. jonasw

    it’s not a trivial trade-off

  318. Guus

    Zash: the entire point of installing that is that you can then install other stuff in virtual machines, instead of directly on your laptop :)

  319. Guus

    jonasw: true, but it works for me.

  320. Guus

    I'm a freelancer, dancing around several customers, each with their own projects and project dependencies.

  321. Guus

    at some point, 3 different versions of the same database software gets annoying :)

  322. jonasw

    I’m frequently running out of disk space. The only thing I find which is reclaimable are the dozens of vagrant-based VMs.

  323. Guus

    hah :)

  324. Guus

    yeah, but I gladly pay for some extra disk space. That's the cheapest of resources

  325. jonasw

    (which is the trade-off: isolation vs. disk space)

  326. Guus

    (docker might actually be a better solution for many of my problems, but I've not looked into that good enough)

  327. jonasw

    it may be, but it’s still expensive…

  328. jonasw

    docker doesn’t help much with that

  329. Ge0rG

    Guus: commented on your comments :P

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  331. Ge0rG

    "I'm calling you to tell you that I sent you an email"

  332. Guus

    the new title fits nicely, btw

  333. Guus

    Ge0rg: you removed a blank line in your second commit, was that intentional?

  334. jonasw

    Guus: > and merged the first two paragraphs to improve the preview.

  335. jonasw

    probably yes

  336. Guus

    ah, sorry

  337. Guus


  338. Ge0rG

    Guus: yes, it moves "the XSF Board has decided that all implementations have to reapply once per year" into the preview

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  341. Guus

    new screenshots

  342. jonasw

    do we have a more fitting category than "misc"?

  343. Ge0rG

    jonasw: pondered that as well

  344. Guus

    you can simply make one up

  345. Guus

    but make one that's re-usable

  346. Guus

    XSF Organisational exists, but I'm not sure if it's fitting

  347. Ge0rG

    Guus: nope

  348. Ge0rG

    I pondered about that as well. Maybe "Software"?

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  350. Ge0rG

    But it would be the first one.

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  352. Ge0rG

    I'd also like to have something to file "Easy XMPP" under

  353. Guus

    I don't have a preference

  354. jonasw

    "State of the Union"

  355. Zash

    "Federation" is a nice word

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  357. Zash

    We need to steal it back from the OStatus people

  358. jonasw

    "State of the Federation"?

  359. Ge0rG

    Federation of the State?

  360. Guus

    Sounds like Star Trek.

  361. Ge0rG

    State of the State?

  362. Zash

    Federated State of the Union?

  363. nyco


  364. nyco

    please someone to review?

  365. Ge0rG

    Guus: I'd like to get the mail out, and I proclaim that 282 is now good enough[tm]

  366. jonasw


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  371. Guus

    Ge0rG: merged. It should pop up on the website anywhere in the next few weeks.

  372. Guus

    (hours, likely)

  373. Guus

    nyco, reviewing

  374. Ge0rG

    Guus: thanks very much! :)

  375. nyco

    Guus, thx

  376. Guus

    nyco: title is just a tad to long

  377. Ge0rG

    Mail sent. Another day well spent.

  378. Flow

    Thanks Ge0rg

  379. Ge0rG

    I can't even imagine how some entries landed on that list... like Apple Messages.

  380. Ge0rG

    Flow: rush to the githubs! Your library is in danger!

  381. Flow

    Ge0rG, shall I do the trial run?

  382. intosi

    Ge0rG: you might not like it, but it supports XMPP, and I know folks who actually prefer it.

  383. Ge0rG

    jonasw: your README is b0rked: $ ./update-entry clients.json yaxim zsh: no such file or directory: ./update-entry

  384. Flow

    hmm json

  385. jonasw

    Ge0rG: meh.

  386. Flow

    does the timestamp require a hour and minute, and if so, why?

  387. Ge0rG

    Flow: now is too late to complain

  388. Flow

    not complaining, just asking

  389. Flow

    are there plans to add a "last release" column?

  390. Ge0rG

    intosi: is it the default iOS app? How do you add XMPP to it?

  391. Guus

    Flow: that was discussed, but it was noted that that might be a false classifier: some software that has not been released in ages is pretty stable.

  392. Flow

    or how about adding an mail address field, which will receive mails a month before expirey

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  394. Guus

    Flow: I like the email idea.

  395. Ge0rG

    Flow: naaah

  396. Ge0rG

    Flow: we want active entries, not people who barely care enough.

  397. Guus

    Ge0rG: I shall forget to update my entries, even if I'm one of the people managing the site where they're listed.

  398. intosi

    Ge0rG: it's default on OS X. And you add an account by going to the Messages menu, then Add Account, then select Jabber.

  399. intosi

    * select Other, then select Jabber.

  400. intosi

    Haven't checked on iOS.

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  403. Ge0rG

    I'd like to see more info on that page, but "last release date" might not be the most important one.

  404. Guus

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/284 is correct, jonasw?

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  406. Guus

    Flow, you might as well drop the 'SE' ?

  407. Flow

    Guus: why?

  408. Guus

    it's hardly relevant? Hey, keep it if you want :)

  409. Flow

    it don't think Smack would work on Java ME (if that's still a thing)

  410. dwd

    What about EE, does that still exist?

  411. Guus

    jigsaw ftw!

  412. Flow

    exists, sure, is it a thing, don't care

  413. Ge0rG

    Guus: what would be better? collect all the software renewals in one PR or make individual PRs per app?

  414. Guus

    don't really care.

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  416. Guus

    Flow: not sure if your timestamp needs a zone?

  417. Guus


  418. Flow

    example didn't had one IIRC

  419. Guus


  420. Guus

    I'll squash and merge

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  422. jonasw

    sorry, was AFK

  423. Guus

    Can we make Travis check the format of those JSON files?

  424. jonasw

    Guus: if it builds the website, it checks the JSON files

  425. Guus

    which would safeguard against typo's?

  426. jonasw

    hmm, entries with malformatted timestamps are simply omitted and do not raise a hard error currently

  427. jonasw

    Flow: didn’t give it much thought which information to include in the timestamp. it is in UTC though (without the explicit Z) because I didn’t want to open the timezone can of worms

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  429. Ge0rG

    jonasw: "Use the tool as described in the previous section to perform a renewal (this will sort the list correctly to minimize future diffs)" is a lie, it doesn't sort :(

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  431. jonasw

    it does sort the keys

  432. jonasw

    it doesn’t sort the applications, that’s true

  433. Ge0rG

    jonasw: that's the opposite of what I'd like to have actually ;)

  434. Ge0rG

    I'd rather have "name" first

  435. Ge0rG

    and the applications sorted

  436. jonasw

    Ge0rG: I can’t force the json module to do a specific key sorting

  437. jonasw

    which means that without sorted keys, we would end up with random sorts on each save

  438. jonasw

    which is very bad

  439. Ge0rG

    Yay for python json

  440. jonasw

    it’s based on a security feature

  441. Ge0rG

    jonasw: but you could sort the applications in the array by name, couldn't you? :D

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  443. jonasw

    yes, that’s possible

  444. mathieui

    jonasw, can’t you use PYTHONHASHSEED?

  445. mathieui

    to fix the dict key order

  446. jonasw

    mathieui: and find a hash seed which happens to do what we want?

  447. jonasw

    interesting hack.

  448. mathieui


  449. jonasw

    requries everyone to set PYTHONHASHSEED though ;-)

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  451. jonasw

    (you can’t set it from within python)

  452. jonasw

    Ge0rG: I’ll make a PR which will make a nasty diff and sorts the entries, and then we can discuss there if we want to do that

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  454. Ge0rG

    jonasw: +1

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  459. Ge0rG

    damn, I was too slow in adding Bruno, now it's a new PR

  460. jonasw

    ah, nice, it doesn’t even produce a diff

  461. Guus

    You snooze, you loose, Ge0rG

  462. Ge0rG

    Guus: jonasw is at fault, I was following the README and got confused about the non-sorting

  463. jonasw

    blame shifting!

  464. Ge0rG

    jonasw: incorrect documentation :P

  465. Guus

    I have a hard time having a serious discussion with someone that just added a software entry named "bruno the jabber bear"

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  467. jonasw

    Ge0rG, Guus: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/288

  468. Guus

    jonasw: Ge0rg appears to be making up info categories, is that ocrrect?

  469. Ge0rG

    Guus: what about the person that is maintaining Bruno the Jabber Bear for over four years now?

  470. Guus

    jonasw: you need to change that newline in data/libraries.json?

  471. jonasw

    Guus: it is what happens when you run the tool on the file

  472. Guus


  473. Ge0rG

    Guus: you mean the ones in clients.json? I think we need to rework them all, categorically

  474. jonasw

    the tool doesn’t put a newline on the end, I ran it to canonicalise

  475. jonasw

    ack, Ge0rG

  476. jonasw

    ideally, we would have them worked out in such a way that we can automatically split the tables on them as has been proposed in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/193

  477. Steve Kille has left

  478. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes please. We can work together on a canonic list of platforms

  479. jonasw

    Android, iOS, Linux, Windows, MacOS

  480. jonasw

    anything else?

  481. Guus

    heh. No love for windows phones :P

  482. jonasw

    "Browser" "Console" "IBM i" "Linux" "Mobile" "Mobile (Android)" "Mobile (Android, Blackberry (BBOS), Nokia Symbian S40" "Mobile (Android, iOS)" "Mobile (BlackBerry)" "Mobile (iOS)" "OSX" "S60 and Asha)" "Text-Mode" "Web" "Windows"

  483. Guus


  484. jonasw

    right, browsers probably make sense

  485. Tobias

    do we have to have mobile permutations?

  486. jonasw

    splitting for common mobile OSes probably makes sense

  487. Tobias

    just allow multiple OS categories

  488. jonasw

    we do

  489. Ge0rG

    My special favorite is the unterminated "("

  490. dwd

    Ge0rG, That had my OCD kick in.

  491. jonasw

    sorry, my fault

  492. Guus


  493. jonasw

    that was my code foolishly splitting on / when creating the entries. the "Mobile (Android, Blackberry (BBOS), Nokia Symbian S40" belongs to the "S60 and Asha)" one later

  494. dwd breathes.

  495. jonasw

    I’m preparing a cleanup now

  496. Ge0rG

    jonasw: good dea to properly refactor it now.

  497. jonasw

    and then have a keen eye on the PRs

  498. Tobias

    dwd, just open your scheme handbook for medication

  499. Guus

    jonasw: we ideally have some sort of script that checks for this, which we can hook up on travis or another github check.

  500. jonasw

    can do

  501. Ge0rG

    what's the current name of OS X? "macOS"?

  502. Tobias


  503. jonasw

    can we agree on the list of platforms first though?

  504. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes please

  505. Alex has left

  506. jonasw

    suggestion: [ "Android", "iOS", "MacOS", "Linux", "Windows", "Web", ]

  507. Tobias

    jonasw, happy to...if new platform comes up we can always issue another PR

  508. Tobias

    that's macOS with small m..otherwise looks fine

  509. jonasw

    although, there are those blackberries

  510. Guus

    I'd go with "Mobile", and "Mobile (iOS only)" "Mobile (Android only)"

  511. nicolas.verite has joined

  512. Tobias

    Mobile is implicit with Android and iOS

  513. nicolas.verite has left

  514. jonasw

    Guus: I’m doing this with prospect that we might at some point automatically split the table by platform. Having Mobile (iOS) and Mobile (Android) is annoying there.

  515. jonasw

    (and another Mobile which implies both)

  516. Ge0rG

    jonasw: "MacOS" -> "macOS"

  517. Ge0rG

    Guus: -1

  518. Ge0rG

    jonasw: maybe "Browser" instead of "Web"?

  519. nicolas.verite has joined

  520. nicolas.verite has left

  521. jonasw


  522. Ge0rG

    and what to do with "Console" and "Text-Mode"?

  523. nyco

    let's keep it simple?

  524. nyco

    console, web, ios, android

  525. jonasw

    console isn’t a platform

  526. jonasw

    it’s a frontend

  527. Guus


  528. Guus


  529. nyco


  530. jonasw

    nyco: is your console stuff on MS-DOS, Windows, Linux or whatever runs on my router?

  531. intosi

    jonasw: all UI is a front-end.

  532. nyco


  533. Ge0rG

    jonasw: "Windows" is a frontend to NTOSKRNL

  534. nyco


  535. Tobias

    just allow free tagging for OS values and we try to normalize it on demand as a community?

  536. jonasw

    another question, do we want this also for servers? if so, we need to add "*BSD" and "Solaris" to the list :)

  537. dwd

    jonasw, "POSIX", and a massive argument as to whether that strictly covers Linux or not.

  538. Ge0rG

    Linux is a Unix, so maybe we need a generic Unix?

  539. blabla has joined

  540. jonasw


  541. Tobias

    Ge0rG, not so fast there

  542. Tobias


  543. Ge0rG

    jonasw: also rename 'info' into 'platform'

  544. vurpo has left

  545. Ge0rG

    it will conviniently move it below 'name'

  546. jonasw

    Ge0rG: in the tooling? that’s complicated, it doesn’t apply to libraries

  547. SamWhited

    Is Linux a Unix? I don't think that it is; maybe some individual distros pass the Unix specification?

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  552. Guus

    You guys made Kev run.

  553. intosi

    macOS is a certified UNIX.

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  555. jonasw

    seriously though, what to do about Console / Text-Mode?

  556. dwd

    jonasw, Nothing?

  557. jonasw

    dwd: Nothing as in "keep it" or Nothing as in "drop it"?

  558. Flow

    what about non-IM clients?

  559. Ge0rG

    I'm slightly for "drop"

  560. dwd

    jonasw, It's not a platform, certainly.

  561. dwd

    jonasw, So drop it.

  562. jonasw

    then we end up with some clients without platformbs

  563. jonasw

    because they only specified "Console / Text-Mode" (e.g. Finch and GNU Freetalk"

  564. Flow

    like bots and such

  565. jonasw


  566. jonasw


  567. Ge0rG

    jonasw: remove non-matching items from non-renewed software, let authors sort out

  568. Guus wanders off

  569. jonasw


  570. jonasw

    Ge0rG: I’d rather leave it as it is and we sort them out when the software is getting renewed

  571. jonasw

    but I’m going to canonicalise those for which it makes sense now

  572. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'm still for renaming "info" into "platform", because programming languages are platforms as well

  573. jonasw

    Ge0rG: you could’ve brought that up before it was merged

  574. Ge0rG

    jonasw: Guus is too fast.

  575. jonasw

    the PR was hanging there for weeks

  576. jonasw

    well, at least one

  577. jonasw

    (I think)

  578. Guus


  579. jonasw

    hm, maybe only two days

  580. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'm not in the habit of opening and reading random PRs

  581. jonasw

    "the plans were there in the local planning department on Alpha Centauri"

  582. lskdjf has left

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  585. Ge0rG

    https://twitter.com/Xabber_XMPP/status/844865634672435200 - awesome!

  586. lskdjf has joined

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  590. jonasw

    I wonder whether daniel knows about that

  591. waqas has joined

  592. Ge0rG

    Holger, daniel: engage your lawyers! https://twitter.com/Xabber_XMPP/status/844865634672435200

  593. Yagiza has left

  594. jonasw

    Guus: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/289

  595. bjc has left

  596. Ge0rG

    jonasw: neither "Blackberry" nor "Nokia Symbian" make sense.

  597. jonasw

    i have no idea

  598. Flow

    hmm I wonder if kontalk and conversations.im got a similar letter

  599. jonasw

    it was written there in Mobile (…)

  600. bjc has joined

  601. Guus

    jonasw: I will definately forget to do the manual checks at some point. Please make travis fail when desired.

  602. vurpo has left

  603. Ge0rG

    jonasw: it's slightly similar to writing "Unix"

  604. jonasw

    Guus: the issue is that we cannot agree on what is desired

  605. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I propose "other mobile" for platforms that lost the mobile platform war

  606. Guus

    jonasw: that does not take away the fact that travis should fail on a to-be-determined list

  607. jonasw


  608. Alex has joined

  609. Guus

    can you do linting of the json files too?

  610. jonasw

    will do

  611. Guus


  612. goffi

    intosi: it seems you're right, thanks for the reply. That's unfortunate, I would like that an entity can write/retrieve or or more item(s) without being able to get any other one

  613. vurpo has left

  614. Ge0rG

    jonasw: "info" -> "platform"? :D

  615. vurpo has joined

  616. jonasw

    Ge0rG: it’s on the way… I only have two hands

  617. jonasw

    one step after the other

  618. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yay! :)

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  641. moparisthebest

    wait Ge0rG you have to let the german govt know if you start a server on your machine there? or I read it wrong?

  642. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: if you are running a commercial public service

  643. Zash

    Don't forget to register your blog with the ministry of truth.

  644. moparisthebest

    so, I ran forums (with private messaging?) and still an IRC server on a hetzner server in germany since 2006, I'm breaking german law since I never contacted anyone?

  645. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: only if you have ads on it, or advertise yourself as a professional somethingsomething

  646. moparisthebest

    the forum had ads, the irc server does not

  647. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: the forum qualifies then

  648. moparisthebest

    what's the purpose for this anyway? requiring backdoors or?

  649. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: I'll let the authorities know, expect an extradition request soon.

  650. moparisthebest

    ha I guess so :)

  651. daniel

    Just put up a sign that says it's verboten for Germans to use your service

  652. moparisthebest

    maybe huge german hosting companies like hetzner might let foreigners know this...

  653. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: the reason is to have a list of companies providing telecommunication services to the public, to better protect people's privacy and to allow for lawful interception

  654. moparisthebest

    those last 2 items are completely contradictory, but whatever :)

  655. moparisthebest

    add some doublethink in there and it's fine

  656. Zash

    Ge0rG: Is this new?

  657. Zash

    Or is this the data retention thing resurfacing?

  658. daniel

    Not new. We have always bin at war with Eurasia

  659. moparisthebest

    seriously with this definition what *doesn't* constitute as a 'telecommunication service' ?

  660. Ge0rG

    Zash: not sure, maybe ten years or so. Not much to do with data retention.

  661. moparisthebest

    I think a static html page without javascript might, but that's communication in one direction to multiple people even

  662. moparisthebest has joined

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  666. Ge0rG

    there is also a public directory of such telco providers, with proper postal addresses given (probably so you can sue them)

  667. lskdjf has left

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  669. Flow

    daniel: did you already saw the Android O preview?

  670. moparisthebest

    creepy, so where could you properly host an xmpp server? sealand?

  671. lskdjf has left

  672. lskdjf has joined

  673. Zash

    define properly

  674. Zash

    define your threat model

  675. daniel

    Flow, i saw the announcment. https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/844257001668513793

  676. Flow

    yep exaclty, note that they also did something similar in the Android M preview

  677. moparisthebest

    Zash, properly as being able to just start a server and not register with the ministry of truth first

  678. Flow

    and later added the whitelist for battery optimizations

  679. Flow

    in the final release

  680. daniel

    i'm still a bit unsure if the permission to ignore battery optimizations might not include that as well

  681. sonny has joined

  682. daniel

    otherwise how are the playservices supposed to run?

  683. Zash

    moparisthebest: I'm not aware of any such requirement in .se. Also pretty sure that anything self-hosted is fine.

  684. Flow

    daniel: I hope so, but I also wouldn't be suprised if google made it an system-app exclusive feature

  685. Ge0rG

    Android O looks like Android 0.

  686. Zash

    Android Zero

  687. daniel

    abwarten und tee trinken

  688. Ge0rG

    daniel: do you know from your head what is needed to make a foreground notification that's slightly greyed out and not displayed together with actual message notifications? (I don't even know how to properly word what I mean, sigh)

  689. daniel

    Ge0rG, low priority

  690. Ge0rG

    daniel: thanks!

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  694. Ge0rG

    daniel: you could create a Conversations wallpaper service!

  695. jonasw

    Guus, Ge0rG: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/290

  696. vurpo has left

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  701. Ge0rG

    jonasw: platforms += ["Other"]?

  702. jonasw

    Ge0rG: really? let’s see how it plays out without that.

  703. jonasw

    would be okay with replacing "Other Mobile" with "Other" though

  704. kaboom has left

  705. Ge0rG

    jonasw: might work well enough as well

  706. Ge0rG

    jonasw: are those platforms.json for clients only or also for servers and libs?

  707. jonasw

    not intended to be used for libs, may be used for servers in the future

  708. jonasw

    but currently that’s not enforced

  709. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I imagine a common platforms json for server and client is okay, and a separate one for libs

  710. Ge0rG

    OTOH, you don't really often need to filter libs by platform.

  711. jonasw

    I don’t think we need one for libs, right

  712. Ge0rG

    for clients, there is immediate benefit.

  713. Ge0rG

    Is the clients.json also hosted somewhere on xmpp.org? I could use it to automatically generate the list in easy-xmpp-invitation

  714. jonasw

    it is not, afaik

  715. jonasw

    but should be possible

  716. Ge0rG

    BTW, it would be nice to also have a description field in the json, though it should be named differently, to be after "name""

  717. Guus

    Ge0rG: it obviously is hosted here: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/xsf/xmpp.org/master/data/clients.json

  718. kaboom has left

  719. Ge0rG

    Guus: thanks

  720. jonasw

    Ge0rG: updated

  721. jonasw

    Ge0rG: it wouldn’t be shown on the website then though, right?

  722. Holger has left

  723. jonasw

    Guus: I’m not that good with travis, also I don’t know the environment. However, running ./data/lint-list.py clients.json ./data/lint-list.py servers.json ./data/lint-list.py libraries.json is what you wanted me to make possible. Those will fail with non-zero exit codes when there are errors.

  724. vurpo has left

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  726. Guus

    jonasw: travis executes: make html

  727. Guus

    does it make sense to hook it into that?

  728. jonasw

    Guus: I’d rather add additional commands

  729. Ge0rG

    jonasw: "it"?

  730. jonasw

    Ge0rG: the description

  731. Ge0rG

    jonasw: would it be hard to add?

  732. jonasw

    Ge0rG: no, not particularly, but I wonder if that’s the right place.

  733. jonasw

    and if it will be well maintained if it isn’t shown on the website, and what’s next

  734. jonasw

    also, wasn’t someone else working on a registry of software?

  735. jonasw

    or rather, a way for software to publish their manifests

  736. jonasw

    then we could simply add a url_manifest or something like that

  737. Guus

    jonasw: if I read https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/customizing-the-build/ correctly, you can simply add items to the script directive in .travis

  738. Zash has left

  739. jonasw

    Guus: do you know if python3 is available in the travis build?

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  744. Guus


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  747. jonasw

    Guus: this will make different builds with different versions of python.

  748. jonasw

    the default appears to be 2.7

  749. jonasw

    I have to adapt the linter to work with that

  750. jonasw

    which is not trivial because the .casefold() method used for sorting requires python 3.3+

  751. Guus

    it is all chinese to me. What happens if we make the entire thing run in python 3.3?

  752. goffi has joined

  753. jonasw

    Guus: not sure if pelican survives that. at least it probably makes the environment on the server more different from the environment in travis

  754. lovetox has joined

  755. jonasw

    I’ll try to figure out a way to make travis run the linting with python 3.3+ and the website build with 2.7

  756. blabla has joined

  757. Guus

    I'm not sure what version of python is running on the server in the first place?

  758. jonasw

    I don’t know either, but pelican still defaults to 2.7 afaik

  759. intosi

    It's a Debian system, so 2.7.

  760. intosi

    By default, that is.

  761. intosi

    I didn't dare run Pelican with anything else.

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  774. moparisthebest

    does anyone know if dino has a muc? or like, any way to find out what xeps it supports than source code spelunking? https://github.com/dino/dino

  775. moparisthebest

    does anyone know if dino has a muc? or like, any way to find out what xeps it supports other than source code spelunking? https://github.com/dino/dino

  776. intosi

    A muc, or muc support?

  777. lskdjf

    moparistthebest: we don't have a muc yet, but setting one up is on the todo. And for the supported xeps, they are roughly "listed" here https://github.com/dino/dino/tree/master/xmpp-vala/src/module/xep , although some are only partially implemented

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  783. jonasw

    no stream management?

  784. Ge0rG

    hi lskdjf, you are one of the devs?

  785. moparisthebest

    yea I actually meant 'do they have a muc' but I would have also been interested in if they had xep support

  786. lskdjf

    jonasw: no, not yet

  787. moparisthebest

    thanks much lskdjf

  788. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: star https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/13 :P

  789. lskdjf

    moparisthebest: muc xep support exists, yes

  790. lskdjf

    Ge0rG, yes I am

  791. Valerian has joined

  792. moparisthebest

    star or thumbs up? I only see thumbs up

  793. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: star up and thumb it!

  794. moparisthebest

    I thumbed it

  795. Ge0rG

    lskdjf: I wanted to pitch https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_XMPP to you :D

  796. moparisthebest

    never heard of vala before, looks kind of java-y which I like, will watch closely :)

  797. Holger

    moparisthebest: The point of Vala is avoiding C in the GObject/GTK+/GNOME world. The syntax is built around the GObject model and it compiles to C code.

  798. lskdjf

    moparisthebest: As far as I read, vala is mainly ment to be c#-like (which again is similar to java...). But it's really nice. I always thought of UI-development being a horror, but I started liking it, vala integrates GTK really nicely.

  799. Holger

    moparisthebest: Other than that it's really just yet another totally boring Java/C#-like language yes :-)

  800. moparisthebest

    I absolutely *love* the idea of languages compiling to C, I've seen a couple like that

  801. Ge0rG

    a totally boring C#-like GTK-only language.

  802. moparisthebest

    it's pretty ingenious, then you get compiler and great optimization for free

  803. jere has joined

  804. dwd

    moparisthebest, No, you don't.

  805. dwd

    moparisthebest, You get a compiler, sure, but you could have got that by writing an LLVM frontend.

  806. Zash

    Doesn't GCC still have better optimizations than LLVM & co?

  807. dwd

    moparisthebest, You don't get as good optimization, because you have to have machine generated C in the middle, and that loses both semantics and probably injects a lot of boilerplate.

  808. moparisthebest

    it seems like when a new archictecture comes out a C compiler comes with it at minimum, not necessarily llvm output

  809. Zash

    But who cares, the CPU will just re-optimize the machine code anyways.

  810. dwd

    Zash, Different level. It's not like you can run badly written C and it'll miraculously recompile it.

  811. dwd

    Zash, It's more that some of the ASM hand-optimization is done by the CPU these days.

  812. daniel has left

  813. moparisthebest

    dwd, I'm not convinced a compiler author could output good llvm but not good C

  814. waqas has left

  815. dwd

    moparisthebest, More scope, I think, for optimization at the transcoding stage.

  816. moparisthebest

    I'm not sure how llvm handles that, if you can have 'optimal' llvm code, how is it optimal across platforms where there are different optimal ways to do things?

  817. moparisthebest

    but also it locks you to llvm which doesn't support everything, idk, I still think in theory I like the C idea better, practice may be different

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  820. edhelas

    hello everyone, I'm planning to work on some XEPs in the upcoming days. I've already done some work on the OMEMO XEP based on the discussions that we had during the FOSDEM Summit of this year.

  821. Flow has joined

  822. edhelas

    what is the best way to submit it, should I do a PR ?

  823. SamWhited

    edhelas: Yes please!

  824. edhelas

    perfect :) I'll do that asap

  825. edhelas

    also I'm (finally) planning to work on the Bookmark XEP

  826. jonasw

    SamWhited: are you watching the xeps repo or shall one notify the editors team directly when one issues a PR?

  827. SamWhited

    jonasw: It will email me when someone opens a PR

  828. daniel has left

  829. jonasw

    okay thanks

  830. SamWhited

    (yes, watching, what you said)

  831. Flow

    lskdjf: small patch incoming :)

  832. edhelas

    SamWhited, because I'm changing how OMEMO bundles are published and retrieved, should I bump the urn:xmpp:omemo to :1 ?

  833. edhelas

    it seems that no clients is currently using urn:xmpp:omemo:0 for now

  834. Flow

    moparisthebest: source-to-source is often worse than source-to-IR

  835. SamWhited

    edhelas: Sounds like that's a breaking change, so I'd think so, but I'm not sure. You could chat with daniel about the change maybe

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  839. daniel

    afaik andy is going to bump to omemo:1 pretty soon anyway

  840. Flow

    edhelas: I think you should have coordinated your changes with the authors

  841. edhelas

    it's not done yet :)

  842. edhelas

    just wondering so I can actually coordinate

  843. Flow

    but if they are small enough, just issuing an PR may be also without that mutch overhead

  844. Flow

    i've heard that there is a secret MUC where all the OMEMO devs idle around

  845. Flow

    but maybe it's just a rumor

  846. edhelas

    they are all encrypted :(

  847. lovetox

    so how far is the movim implementation of omemo?

  848. edhelas

    for now on pause, that's why I'd like to work on the XEP first

  849. edhelas

    I think that I'll work on it in a month of two (got some other things to implement first)

  850. lovetox

    ok but if i remember the thing right about bundles, this was only a cosmetic change, nothing which would you hold back in an implementation

  851. lovetox

    or is there more you want to change?

  852. edhelas

    mostly how the bundles are published for no

  853. edhelas


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  900. nyco

    SamWhited, I propose this as a starting point: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/294

  901. nyco

    arc, please add PyCon stuff, sorry...

  902. jonasw

    nyco: did you mean to ping Guus?

  903. nyco

    oh, as well, you're right... and you jonasw as well ;-)

  904. nyco

    ping all, in fact ;-)

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  909. lovetox

    how do i find out if im still in a room?

  910. jonasw

    lovetox: MUCs? I think Ge0rG knows a bit about that.

  911. lovetox

    if i send a ping to the muc it answers with service unavailable, but im in it and it works

  912. Ge0rG

    lovetox: you need to send a ping to your nickname

  913. lovetox


  914. lovetox

    nice idea ^^

  915. Ge0rG

    lovetox: and then wait for the ping response, not for a reflection of the request

  916. blipp has left

  917. Ge0rG

    lovetox: you need to ping periodically, and have a sufficiently high timeout (maybe 30-60s?)

  918. blipp has joined

  919. lovetox

    hm why though? i have only the problem that gajim doesnt rejoin a channel if the stream management resume fails for some reason

  920. lovetox

    so i intending only on reconnect to send a ping

  921. jonasw

    lovetox: if resume fails, you can know for sure that you’re not in the muc anymore

  922. Ge0rG

    Old yaxim used to ignore IQs when too many were received, which tripped on a series of self pings from poezio

  923. jonasw

    (the server should’ve sent unavailable presence for you)

  924. lovetox

    jonasw, yeah right ...

  925. Ge0rG

    lovetox: what jonasw said

  926. lovetox

    ok thanks for the help

  927. jonasw

    if you *had* stream management before. If you didn’t, you cannot know really (unless you managed to replace your old resource, but this is trickerlyand).

  928. jonasw


  929. Guus has left

  930. lovetox

    lets assume everyone has streammanagement :D

  931. Ge0rG

    lovetox: you can't rely on unavailable presence, and some servers don't properly synchronize you if you send a join to an "already joined" MUC. Best workaround is to send presence unavailable right before the join

  932. jonasw

    Ge0rG: you’re saying we can’t rely on "if the stream resumption fails, the server has sent unavailable presence and we can re-join"?

  933. jonasw

    *re-join without trickery

  934. Ge0rG

    And then you need to perform a magic mushroom rain dance and sacrifice a goat

  935. jonasw

    or wait it out until MIX sweeps away all that tricky state :)

  936. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'm sure MIX will have its fair share of tricky state

  937. jonasw

    Ge0rG: prevent it by reading the standard closely and fixing it before it becomes Draft :)

  938. Ge0rG

    jonasw: let's see when I find another two hours

  939. jonasw


  940. edhelas

    I'm currently working on the Bookmark 2.0 XEP here https://lite5.framapad.org/p/OlHwr5GBlY (go to the bottom of the page)

  941. jonasw

    "CAN" is not an RFC 2119 word

  942. edhelas

    thanks :)

  943. jonasw

    also, since you’re asking inline, MIX doesn’t need that anymore, MIXes are in the roster and annotated as MIXes

  944. Ge0rG

    jonasw [20:08]: > Ge0rG: you’re saying we can’t rely on "if the stream resumption fails, the server has sent unavailable presence and we can re-join"? No, I'm saying that if you were in the MUC before, and aren't any more, it's better to send presence unavailable

  945. edhelas

    jonasw, ok perfect

  946. edhelas

    so maybe I should simply remove this part

  947. jonasw

    Ge0rG: like, always, even if I left intentionally?

  948. jonasw

    Ge0rG: why sending unavailable twice?

  949. Ge0rG

    jonasw: no, in that case you'll be fine probably. Unless there was an s2s interruption while you tried to leave

  950. jonasw

    edhelas: I am not deeply familiar with PEP and such, does PEP work well if different xeps building on it use pubsub collections?

  951. jonasw

    Ge0rG: the s2s link hopefully uses SM as well.

  952. edhelas

    well that where the definition of PEP is unclear

  953. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'm not aware of any s2s links with SM enabled

  954. jonasw

    edhelas: at least, the node names are shared between different PEP usecases, so I’d worry about conflicts there

  955. edhelas

    for me PEP can be a Pubsub node created under a user JID

  956. edhelas

    jonasw, good remark

  957. jonasw

    edhelas: another thing: I’m not sure if PEP allows multiple items per node. I think Zash mentioned that it’s not necessarily given that having multiple items is possible.

  958. jonasw

    (well, it might *allow* it, but may not guarantee it)

  959. Zash

    Persisting multiple items, or persisting at all isn't guaranteed

  960. edhelas

    jonasw, then 0277, 0330 and the proposal of OMEMO that I'm doing are broken :)

  961. Zash

    I don't remember if there were distinct features advertised for all types

  962. jonasw

    edhelas: reference for roster-stuff: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing

  963. edhelas

    jonasw, yup found it, thanks

  964. jonasw

    edhelas: have you considered <group/> for consistency with the roster itself instead of <tag/>?

  965. edhelas

    jonasw, I do

  966. jonasw

    (not saying that <group/> is a good name)

  967. edhelas

    the thing is that I'm even wondering if this <tag> thing should maybe be moved to another XEP

  968. jonasw


  969. edhelas

    then we can actually tags Pubsub items

  970. edhelas

    in general

  971. jonasw


  972. edhelas

    also i'd really like to be able to tag Pubsub nodes, is it possible to tag MIX as well ?

  973. jonasw

    I sure hope that it’s possible to add <group/>s to MIX roster entries

  974. jonasw

    we should ping steve about that

  975. edhelas

    actually now I'm simply wondering if the Bookmarks 2.0 will not be useless with MIX

  976. jonasw

    it may very well be

  977. jonasw

    if it’s primary use case is MUCs

  978. edhelas

    actually I was also dreaming about having browsers bookmarks sync over XMPP :D

  979. jonasw

    edhelas: maybe ask steve about the <group/> thing for MIX roster entries on-list, i.e. if it’s possible to modify the groups of MIX roster entries like normal roster entries

  980. edhelas

    I'll :)

  981. edhelas

    thanks for all the tips !

  982. jonasw

    you’re welcome!

  983. edhelas

    I'll also continue to review the MIX XEP, I already made some comments and remarks on it

  984. edhelas

    I'd really like to clarify everything to be sure that we cover all the use cases

  985. jonasw


  986. jonasw

    although at this point I think I need to implement it before I can further comment on it

  987. edhelas

    personnally I don't see it directly as a MUC remplaceant

  988. edhelas

    I'm planning to publish Atom items on it to really have a social network usage of it

  989. jonasw

    I think it’ll serve as a muc replacement for many of the mundane uses

  990. edhelas

    so now I'm wondering how we will be able to handle comments :D

  991. edhelas

    or "threads" in MUC discussions

  992. jonasw

    edhelas: re comments: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html

  993. jonasw

    re threads: there is the <thread/> element from RFC 6121, but nobody has come up with a good UI for it yet

  994. edhelas


  995. jonasw

    (you could also use the <thread/> thing for comments in fact, if you control the participating clients and UI)

  996. edhelas

    I think that this need to be clarified

  997. edhelas

    I'll try to read on it

  998. jonasw

    there is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0201.html

  999. edhelas

    are you planning to work on an implementation, in which client/server ?

  1000. jonasw

    I’m planning to work on MIX in aioxmpp

  1001. jonasw

    (client library)

  1002. edhelas


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  1005. SamWhited

    jonasw: not immediately necessary, but if you're going to make some changes to ecaps2 is there any chance I could get you to also add registry submissions to it? Eg. in the XEP that defines the registry it should have a little snippet of XML to include in the XEP (which is also what goes in the registry). Eg. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html#registrar-reg-features

  1006. goffi has joined

  1007. jonasw

    SamWhited: ah, yes

  1008. SamWhited

    If not I can make something up, but I figured you'd have more context and could write a better description.

  1009. SamWhited


  1010. jonasw

    for some odd reason I haven’t seen those when I was looking at examples

  1011. sonny has joined

  1012. jonasw

    btw, is anyone here using emacs to edit XEPs?

  1013. jonasw

    or spacemacs rather?

  1014. SamWhited

    yah, they probably don't all have them

  1015. SamWhited

    I need to update the disco-features registry to support provisional entries too; I just really hate looking at XML / XSLT so I haven't gotten around to trying to figure it out.

  1016. waqas has left

  1017. jonasw

    I like XSLT

  1018. jonasw

    let me know what you need.

  1019. jonasw

    is there a stream features registry?

  1020. SamWhited

    ooh, if you really want too, the registries are located here: https://github.com/xsf/registrar

  1021. waqas has joined

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  1023. SamWhited

    For the namespaces registry, I updated the vars.xsl and vars-xml.xsl file (which generate the HTML and the actual XML registry, respectively) to support a <status/> element on each entry, which would create a separate "Provisional" table for things that are still experimental (when things go to draft the provisional label goes away and they go into the actual registry)

  1024. SamWhited

    the same needs to be done for features.xsl and features-xml.xsl

  1025. waqas has joined

  1026. jonasw

    will do one I figured out how a stream feature registration shall look like

  1027. SamWhited

    I'm not actually sure if there's a stream features registry

  1028. jonasw

    there is an XML file at least

  1029. SamWhited

    oh yah, sure enough

  1030. SamWhited

    I guess that one probably needs its XSLT files updated too

  1031. jonasw

    I also see from xep 53 that I should’ve appended :0 to the namespace

  1032. jonasw

    shall I do that now, while I’m at it, to have it consistent?

  1033. SamWhited

    jonasw: You can if you want, but you could also wait until there was a breaking change and it would be fine; it's just a convention, but not having it (and then adding it) is the same as having it and bumping the version, it just changes the string :)

  1034. jonasw


  1035. jonasw

    was just wondering.

  1036. Ge0rG

    jonasw: you like XML meta stuff? PARS still needs a schema, and I'd appreciate some support with that

  1037. jonasw

    Ge0rG: unfortunately, I’m not good at schemas

  1038. jonasw

    I only understand the very basics

  1039. jonasw

    SamWhited: added a commit to my PR, let me know if that’s the format that’s needed

  1040. SamWhited

    Thanks! Works for me

  1041. jonasw

    SamWhited: I may be wrong, but I think Disco features already get a provisional table

  1042. SamWhited

    jonasw: I don't see it, but maybe I forgot how this works

  1043. jonasw

    when I generate the HTML locally, I see this: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/vZytdqh1MtbxSWpbTeSj9FZRULo_RCjCdudkVoN8rzY.png

  1044. SamWhited

    oh, maybe I'm looking at the wrong xsl file

  1045. jonasw

    I think so. features.xsl is for stream features if I’m not mistaken.

  1046. SamWhited

    yah, I'm looking at the stream features one

  1047. Guus

    jonasw, I'm going to hijack your travis commit, k?

  1048. jonasw

    Guus: feel free

  1049. jonasw

    I totally forgot about it in the meantime

  1050. jonasw

    the build took more than a few seconds to start and then I forgot about it

  1051. jere has joined

  1052. jonasw

    it’s missing ; fi on those if lines

  1053. Guus

    not any more...

  1054. jonasw

    ah cool :)

  1055. waqas has left

  1056. jonasw


  1057. Guus

    don't thank me just yet...

  1058. Guus

    ooh, green

  1059. jonasw

    but it didn’t run with two versions

  1060. Guus

    so... if I now break one of the json files, it should fail again, right?

  1061. jonasw

    try replacing the whole matrix: block with: python: - "2.7" - "3.3"

  1062. Guus

    isn't that what I did?

  1063. jonasw

    no, it’s: matrix: - python: 2.7 - python: 3.3 if I read the diff correctly

  1064. jonasw

    buidls with different python versions should look like this: https://travis-ci.org/horazont/aioxmpp/builds/213925500 (there should be sub-builds for each version)

  1065. Guus

    aaah, yeah, sloppy copy/paste

  1066. Guus


  1067. Guus

    that's more like it

  1068. Guus

    linting now fails

  1069. Guus

    is that to be expected?

  1070. jonasw

    ha right

  1071. jonasw

    that’s my fault

  1072. jonasw

    haven’t tested the linting with libraries

  1073. jonasw

    will fix, sec

  1074. Guus


  1075. Guus

    simply proving that it works as intended. Good job.

  1076. Guus

    you should claim that it was intentional.

  1077. jonasw

    right. totally intentional.

  1078. Guus

    perhaps make the error messages a bit more verbose?

  1079. jonasw

    even more verbose?

  1080. Guus

    so that random people understand what they need to fix

  1081. jonasw

    if they use update-entry.py, they won’t encounter that type of error

  1082. Guus

    yeah, clear to people that are most likely to be unaware of the restrictions, but still need to fix the problem.

  1083. Guus

    I'm assuming that most people will simply manually edit the json file instead of running that script. I know I will.

  1084. jonasw

    fair enough

  1085. Guus

    what is the problem? those entries need to be in alphabetic order?

  1086. Guus

    but, good job! this will be very helpful!

  1087. nicolas.verite has joined

  1088. Guus

    jonasw: feel free to squash some of those commits... :)

  1089. jonasw


  1090. jonasw

    squashing will be interesting

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  1094. Guus

    meh, simply fixup of some of the odd travis commits

  1095. jonasw

    ah, cleaned it up a bit more thoroughly

  1096. jonasw

    SamWhited: https://github.com/xsf/registrar/pull/27

  1097. jonasw

    Guus: we need to talk what to do about those three or four pull requests for renewals which already came in in the mean time

  1098. jonasw

    I’m fine if you merge them, then I’ll rebase my updates to the tooling on top of them

  1099. jonasw

    and then we can merge the tooling updates. Even though I’d like to mention that this touches the template files and iteam may want to take a quick look at the diffs as due diligence

  1100. Guus

    jonasw: that might be best

  1101. Guus

    tobias, kev, intosi ^

  1102. jonasw

    even though the diff is very trivial this time: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/290/files#diff-01d6617e31aefee1df9589f998afb6de

  1103. nicolas.verite has joined

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  1105. Guus

    I like how already, people are modifying their entries

  1106. jonasw


  1107. Guus

    lots of bigger and smaller website updates

  1108. lskdjf has left

  1109. Guus

    heh, sco0ter links to http://xmpp.rocks which he redirects :)

  1110. jonasw

    let me know when you’re done merging

  1111. Guus


  1112. Guus

    are you addressing https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/193 too, btw

  1113. Guus

    (make the list sortable/filterable?)

  1114. jonasw

    I‘m not

  1115. Guus

    could you? :)

  1116. jonasw

    haven’t looked into the magic done for the xep list

  1117. nicolas.verite has left

  1118. jonasw

    that’s verging into the space of javascript, which I try to avoid

  1119. SamWhited

    jonasw: Awesome; thanks!

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  1122. Guus

    I know the feeling

  1123. jonasw

    Guus: updated my PR with new data

  1124. jonasw

    Guus: let us take that issue up when the renewal deadline is over.

  1125. jonasw

    then we’ll have a clear list of platforms

  1126. jonasw

    then we may decide how to present them

  1127. jonasw

    I have different ideas in mind, but they won’t work if we have a mess of platforms

  1128. Guus

    whatever works

  1129. Guus

    I don't care to much either way

  1130. Guus

    heh, there's another client update :)

  1131. Guus

    feel like rebasing once more, jonasw?

  1132. jonasw


  1133. jonasw

    although I‘d rather wait to a point where someone can merge the updates afterwards

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  1137. Guus


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  1139. jonasw

    well, it’s easier to rebase them in a large batch

  1140. nicolas.verite has left

  1141. jonasw

    less overhead

  1142. Guus

    still not sure what you mean

  1143. Guus

    but, if you rebase once more, I'll merge

  1144. jonasw


  1145. jonasw

    then it’s fine :)

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  1149. jonasw

    Guus: done!

  1150. Guus

    I'm assuming you didn't sneak in anything nasty in this last commit... :)

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  1153. jonasw

    you could grep over the touched files and see if anything outside data has been touched and take a quick look

  1154. jonasw

    git will even show it to you when you do the merge I think

  1155. jonasw

    travis passed

  1156. moparisthebest

    aw total missed chance to rootkit the server jonasw

  1157. jonasw tips his white hat to moparisthebest

  1158. moparisthebest

    jonasw, I clicked on your image earlier, do you run your own dnssec capable dns servers or what?

  1159. moparisthebest

    I rarely see the lock in my browser except on my own sites and debian.org...

  1160. sonny has joined

  1161. jonasw

    moparisthebest: yes

  1162. nicolas.verite has joined

  1163. jonasw

    although I wonder what image you’re talking about :)

  1164. moparisthebest

    jonasw, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/dnssec-validator/

  1165. moparisthebest

    no DANE set up though :)

  1166. jonasw

    I guessed that this was the lock you were talking about, but not which image ;-)

  1167. nicolas.verite has left

  1168. jonasw

    oh it has DANE, but not for HTTPS

  1169. jonasw

    was more trouble than worth it

  1170. moparisthebest

    oh you rotate keys with letsencrypt too?

  1171. moparisthebest

    I keep the same key, just get new certs, and DANE pins my key

  1172. jonasw

    with the amount of HTTPS domains, it doesn’t scale to maintain the TLSAs. the gain is virtually zero compared to XMPP and SMTP (where I *do* maintain TLSA)

  1173. jonasw

    I don’t rotate keys, but still.

  1174. moparisthebest

    yea the gain is 0 because only the 4 people running that plugin validate them :)

  1175. moparisthebest

    but if you don't rotate keys it should be easy to add one record per domain

  1176. moparisthebest

    one day when I add DANE support to conversations it'll check it for https too

  1177. jonasw

    those are a lot of domains though.

  1178. lovetox has left

  1179. Guus

    if someone else could merge my renewals... (feels wrong to do it myself)

  1180. jonasw

    I can’t ;-)

  1181. moparisthebest

    jonasw, what server(s) are you using for dns? are they geographically seperated and such?

  1182. jonasw

    moparisthebest: pdns on a host in .de, I have backups in .at and in another facility in .de

  1183. waqas has joined

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  1186. Guus


  1187. Guus

    thanks for the had work jonasw

  1188. Guus

    I'm off to watch some tv

  1189. jonasw

    you’re welcome

  1190. jonasw

    good luck

  1191. Guus

    I'll need it

  1192. Guus

    my wife promised me 'trash tv' :S

  1193. jonasw

    stay away from the news.

  1194. nicolas.verite has left

  1195. Guus

    ohh, the trainwreck that's the US vote

  1196. Guus

    that'd be good

  1197. Guus grabs popcorn

  1198. moparisthebest

    jonasw, thanks I'm always curious about other's dnssec setups since it's such a pain :)

  1199. jonasw

    with powerdns it’s very trivial really. at least if you don’t mind keeping the keys online

  1200. jonasw

    it takes care of ZSK rollovers by itself

  1201. jonasw

    (and you can of course keep a backup KSK offline if you want to)

  1202. moparisthebest

    I run bind9 at my house as a hidden primary, then use https://freedns.afraid.org/secondary/, https://puck.nether.net/dns/dnsinfo, https://acc.rollernet.us/dns/secondary.php (2 servers) as 'free secondaries' to actually publically host it

  1203. Guus

    could a couple of you +/- https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/275 please?

  1204. moparisthebest

    so 4 different NS server locations, 3 different organizations, I feel fairly confident they won't all go down at once

  1205. Guus

    I don't mind much not doing it either (although I think it'd be nice), but I'd like to know the general feeling

  1206. Guus

    SamWhited: is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/279 this something that you can fix?

  1207. jonasw

    I feel too new to the whole thing to comment on that on the issue, but I don’t have any strong opinion one way or the other either.

  1208. jonasw

    moparisthebest: that sounds reasonable ;-)

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  1211. moparisthebest

    jonasw, bind9 rolls over ZSKs by itself too, still have never rolled over my KSKs yet, but if it's good enough for IANA with .com and .org and such then it's good enough for me :)

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  1238. SamWhited

    Guus: I don't know how any of the website stuff is generated or where the refs come from, sorry

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  1274. bear

    SamWhited Guus -- if those links are broken then we need to add them to the nginx redirect list to fix them

  1275. Guus

    bear: yes please! i have more redirect candidates, but just went to bed.

  1276. bear

    k, let me see if I can get to that

  1277. Guus


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  1279. Zash


  1280. Zash

    Unicode ...

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  1282. bear

    Guus just add them to Issue #224

  1283. Bunneh

    bear: Mix #224 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/224

  1284. bear

    silly bunneh -- https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/224

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  1287. Zash

    bear: Didn't consider multiple repos.

  1288. bear

    it's ok - I didn't realize it would auto-expand, now i'll be more careful

  1289. Zash

    I can turn it off

  1290. bear

    nope - I don't think that's needed - again, it's just me not having been in channel recently to know better

  1291. bear

    IMO it's more helpful to default to XEPs than web stuff

  1292. Zash

    The way it's written, the repo and the room JID are tied together. ( https://code.zash.se/riddim/file/tip/plugins/github.lua if anyone wanna poke around )

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