XSF Discussion - 2017-03-23

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  121. Tobias Github doesn't have a way to diff between the old version of a PR and the new version, does it?
  122. MattJ You can diff between arbitrary revisions if you figure out the URL format
  123. Guus Not sure exactly what you mean
  124. Flow Tobias: it does but is very well hidden
  125. Tobias Guus, a student did a PR, i provided feedback, he updated the PR based on the feedback. now i want a diff between the changes he made
  126. Tobias i remember some people working around by only adding commits and squashing them in the end after the review
  127. Flow Tobias: that is my prefered workflow
  128. Guus ah, he already squashed? Not sure if you can look at the previous commit - didn't that disappear after the history got rewritten by the squash?
  129. Tobias i'm just more used to the gerrit work flow
  130. Guus note that i'm somehwat of a git novice. Listen to Flow.
  131. Tobias Guus, not really...the feedback changes basically were amended to the original commit
  132. MattJ backs away slowly
  133. Guus MattJ don't make eye-contact, and remain calm. Do not run.
  134. intosi MattJ: it's safe here. We have reflog.
  135. jonasw Guus: you could try https://github.com/$user/$repository/compare/$commitA..$commitB
  136. jonasw if you still have the commit IDs somewhere
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  138. Guus jonasw: i will not, but perhaps Tobias would like to.
  139. jonasw uh, I accidentally killed my muc history, sorry :)
  140. Tobias jonasw, ta...will give that a shot :)
  141. Tobias jonasw, sadly..the old commit is gone
  142. jonasw Tobias: :(
  143. jonasw then I’m afraid there’s no way
  144. Tobias luckily the PR isn't that large
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  146. dwd Orphaned commits aren't pushed, but if you pulled it before you should still have it.
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  148. Flow hmm i just noticed that https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/ link to a XSF feed at http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/rss.xml which doesn't appear to get updated any more
  149. Flow same for http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/refs/, although I'm not sure what is supposed to be at this location
  150. Flow can we create a github issue, trello card, $note-somewhere, reminding us to fix this so that we can forget about it? :)
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  153. goffi Hi, small pubsub question: can an entity with "publish-only" affiliation retrieve its own items? It can for other ones, but it's not clear for its own. It seems this affiliation can fulfil a feature I need.
  154. goffi it *can't* for other ones
  155. Guus Flow: please create a new issue here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues
  156. Guus I eventually start annoying people to fix those
  157. goffi ralphm: hi, you probably can answer my question ^ :)
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  163. intosi goffi: I would say it would not be allowed to retrieve any items.
  164. intosi That would include its own.
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  171. Guus intosi: It has been a couple of weeks - https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/243
  172. intosi Indeed.
  173. intosi :)
  174. Guus Tobias, can https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/204 be closed?
  175. Tobias yes
  176. Guus tx
  177. intosi https://dev.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=xmpp.org&s=2001%3a4800%3a7810%3a512%3a14e1%3ab81%3aff05%3a8bb&hideResults=on&latest
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  179. Guus Thanks
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  181. Guus So, who has anything nice to say about Ryan Eatmon, Jeremie Miller, Julian Missig, Thomas Muldowney and/or Dave Smith? In particular, why they're emeritus members of the XMPP Standards Foundation?
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  185. Guus I don't know any of them, but feel that we should give them a bit more credit
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  188. Tobias well, Jeremie Miller started the whole mess IIRC
  189. Zash I recognize one of those names.
  190. Zash Are the others from before my time?
  191. Guus I'd love that for Jeremie. "Jeremie Miller - he started this whole mess."
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  193. Tobias Zash, who of them isn't before from your time?
  194. Tobias Guus, yeha..don't quote me on that ;)
  195. Guus but, if anyone can write a paragraph on any one of them, please add it here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/275
  196. Zash Tobias: right
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  205. Ge0rG Kev: with your iteam hat on, are you okay with the maintenance burden imposed by https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt ?
  206. Ge0rG Or is the handling of such PRs something that Guus can take care of until the website situation has been clarified?
  207. Tobias Ge0rG, i don't see any maintainance burden for the iteam in there
  208. Guus (why me?)
  209. Tobias because you've been most active on github from all...that's the reward you receive for that ;)
  210. Ge0rG Guus: you are the only one I know who's actively maintaining the website. But this is probably due to my ignorance of all the others doing hard work, sorry.
  211. Guus we need more naming and shaming!
  212. Guus https://github.com/orgs/xsf/people
  213. Guus there
  214. Guus those all have access, i think.
  215. Ge0rG Basically I need a volunteer to merge the PRs, I can take care of preparing / reviewing them
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  217. Guus I shall be happy to push the bright green button
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  219. Ge0rG Guus: thanks very much!
  220. Guus also: where's the blog post(s)?!
  221. Ge0rG Guus: I'll make one with the contents of
  222. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt
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  224. Guus works for me :)
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  234. nyco to make it even more "official": https://linuxfr.org/news/rencontre-xmpp-jabber-par-jabberfr-mardi-28-mars-2017-a-19-h-a-paris
  235. nyco sorry, not English
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  237. Guus ah, cool
  238. Guus nyco, can I tempt you to maintain the list that is now on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meetups on our website instead?
  239. Guus The alternative is that we delete the existing but outdated event page: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/276
  240. Guus (which I already did, but the PR has not been merged yet)
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  268. nyco Guus, what's wrong with the maintenance? I did that page, and it looks good to me, so please guide me ;-)
  269. Guus nyco, You are referring to the wiki page, I assume?
  270. Guus this page lists old information: https://xmpp.org/community/events.html
  271. Guus "Summit 19 will be held once again in Brussels in February 2016"
  272. Guus We should either update it, or remove it.
  273. Guus the wiki page is pretty similar - so, I was thinking that instead of having both pages, we'd combine everything on https://xmpp.org/community/events.html
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  275. Guus that, or delete that page.
  276. Guus (the Lanyrd link shows feb 1st, 2013, as the most uptodate entry)
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  287. nyco whatever is best...
  288. nyco I guess the website has more visibility?
  289. nyco hey, can I blog on xmpp.org about the French/Paris meetup?
  290. Guus yes to all
  291. nyco generally, you may want to go to Reddit website and find the XMPP subreddit, and there you might wanna upvote some articles and comments, and add your positive/insightful comments (not linking directly, because don't wanna generate fake traffic that will be penalised)
  292. Ge0rG Guus: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/282
  293. Ge0rG is also ready to "send" the mail out
  294. Guus Ge0rg: did you testrun this?
  295. Guus I think the title might be to long for comfort
  296. Ge0rG Guus: negative.
  297. Ge0rG Guus: haven't looked into rendering xmpp.org locally yet, merely pandocced it once
  298. Ge0rG Guus: do you have ideas for a catchier title?
  299. Ge0rG "XMPP Software Developers: Action Required" is the mail subject
  300. Ge0rG maybe "Change to XMPP Software Listing Rules"?
  301. Ge0rG maybe "New XMPP Software Listing Rules"?
  302. Zash Never going to give you up .. oh wait yes we are
  303. Guus fyi: vagrant up && vagrant ssh then: cd /vagrant && make devserver website on http://localhost:8000
  304. Zash But ... a static site...
  305. Guus Zash: try and see.
  306. Zash bash: vagrant: command not found
  307. Ge0rG it looks like `./develop_server.sh start` launches that server
  308. Guus apt-get install vagrant ?
  309. Zash Guus: Permission denied
  310. Zash I'm not someone who's going to install things like that
  311. jonasw works fine without vagrant :)
  312. jonasw (assuming you install pelican and its dependencies…)
  313. Ge0rG Guus: changed title
  314. Guus Ge0rG: I added screenshots pre title-change
  315. Guus see comment
  316. Guus jonasw: obviously, but I'm not someone that's going to install all tools for each project on my laptop without some virtualization. Keeps me sane. :)
  317. jonasw it’s not a trivial trade-off
  318. Guus Zash: the entire point of installing that is that you can then install other stuff in virtual machines, instead of directly on your laptop :)
  319. Guus jonasw: true, but it works for me.
  320. Guus I'm a freelancer, dancing around several customers, each with their own projects and project dependencies.
  321. Guus at some point, 3 different versions of the same database software gets annoying :)
  322. jonasw I’m frequently running out of disk space. The only thing I find which is reclaimable are the dozens of vagrant-based VMs.
  323. Guus hah :)
  324. Guus yeah, but I gladly pay for some extra disk space. That's the cheapest of resources
  325. jonasw (which is the trade-off: isolation vs. disk space)
  326. Guus (docker might actually be a better solution for many of my problems, but I've not looked into that good enough)
  327. jonasw it may be, but it’s still expensive…
  328. jonasw docker doesn’t help much with that
  329. Ge0rG Guus: commented on your comments :P
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  331. Ge0rG "I'm calling you to tell you that I sent you an email"
  332. Guus the new title fits nicely, btw
  333. Guus Ge0rg: you removed a blank line in your second commit, was that intentional?
  334. jonasw Guus: > and merged the first two paragraphs to improve the preview.
  335. jonasw probably yes
  336. Guus ah, sorry
  337. Guus kk
  338. Ge0rG Guus: yes, it moves "the XSF Board has decided that all implementations have to reapply once per year" into the preview
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  341. Guus new screenshots
  342. jonasw do we have a more fitting category than "misc"?
  343. Ge0rG jonasw: pondered that as well
  344. Guus you can simply make one up
  345. Guus but make one that's re-usable
  346. Guus XSF Organisational exists, but I'm not sure if it's fitting
  347. Ge0rG Guus: nope
  348. Ge0rG I pondered about that as well. Maybe "Software"?
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  350. Ge0rG But it would be the first one.
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  352. Ge0rG I'd also like to have something to file "Easy XMPP" under
  353. Guus I don't have a preference
  354. jonasw "State of the Union"
  355. Zash "Federation" is a nice word
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  357. Zash We need to steal it back from the OStatus people
  358. jonasw "State of the Federation"?
  359. Ge0rG Federation of the State?
  360. Guus Sounds like Star Trek.
  361. Ge0rG State of the State?
  362. Zash Federated State of the Union?
  363. nyco https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/283
  364. nyco please someone to review?
  365. Ge0rG Guus: I'd like to get the mail out, and I proclaim that 282 is now good enough[tm]
  366. jonasw +1
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  371. Guus Ge0rG: merged. It should pop up on the website anywhere in the next few weeks.
  372. Guus (hours, likely)
  373. Guus nyco, reviewing
  374. Ge0rG Guus: thanks very much! :)
  375. nyco Guus, thx
  376. Guus nyco: title is just a tad to long
  377. Ge0rG Mail sent. Another day well spent.
  378. Flow Thanks Ge0rg
  379. Ge0rG I can't even imagine how some entries landed on that list... like Apple Messages.
  380. Ge0rG Flow: rush to the githubs! Your library is in danger!
  381. Flow Ge0rG, shall I do the trial run?
  382. intosi Ge0rG: you might not like it, but it supports XMPP, and I know folks who actually prefer it.
  383. Ge0rG jonasw: your README is b0rked: $ ./update-entry clients.json yaxim zsh: no such file or directory: ./update-entry
  384. Flow hmm json
  385. jonasw Ge0rG: meh.
  386. Flow does the timestamp require a hour and minute, and if so, why?
  387. Ge0rG Flow: now is too late to complain
  388. Flow not complaining, just asking
  389. Flow are there plans to add a "last release" column?
  390. Ge0rG intosi: is it the default iOS app? How do you add XMPP to it?
  391. Guus Flow: that was discussed, but it was noted that that might be a false classifier: some software that has not been released in ages is pretty stable.
  392. Flow or how about adding an mail address field, which will receive mails a month before expirey
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  394. Guus Flow: I like the email idea.
  395. Ge0rG Flow: naaah
  396. Ge0rG Flow: we want active entries, not people who barely care enough.
  397. Guus Ge0rG: I shall forget to update my entries, even if I'm one of the people managing the site where they're listed.
  398. intosi Ge0rG: it's default on OS X. And you add an account by going to the Messages menu, then Add Account, then select Jabber.
  399. intosi * select Other, then select Jabber.
  400. intosi Haven't checked on iOS.
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  403. Ge0rG I'd like to see more info on that page, but "last release date" might not be the most important one.
  404. Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/284 is correct, jonasw?
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  406. Guus Flow, you might as well drop the 'SE' ?
  407. Flow Guus: why?
  408. Guus it's hardly relevant? Hey, keep it if you want :)
  409. Flow it don't think Smack would work on Java ME (if that's still a thing)
  410. dwd What about EE, does that still exist?
  411. Guus jigsaw ftw!
  412. Flow exists, sure, is it a thing, don't care
  413. Ge0rG Guus: what would be better? collect all the software renewals in one PR or make individual PRs per app?
  414. Guus don't really care.
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  416. Guus Flow: not sure if your timestamp needs a zone?
  417. Guus jonasw?
  418. Flow example didn't had one IIRC
  419. Guus kk
  420. Guus I'll squash and merge
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  422. jonasw sorry, was AFK
  423. Guus Can we make Travis check the format of those JSON files?
  424. jonasw Guus: if it builds the website, it checks the JSON files
  425. Guus which would safeguard against typo's?
  426. jonasw hmm, entries with malformatted timestamps are simply omitted and do not raise a hard error currently
  427. jonasw Flow: didn’t give it much thought which information to include in the timestamp. it is in UTC though (without the explicit Z) because I didn’t want to open the timezone can of worms
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  429. Ge0rG jonasw: "Use the tool as described in the previous section to perform a renewal (this will sort the list correctly to minimize future diffs)" is a lie, it doesn't sort :(
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  431. jonasw it does sort the keys
  432. jonasw it doesn’t sort the applications, that’s true
  433. Ge0rG jonasw: that's the opposite of what I'd like to have actually ;)
  434. Ge0rG I'd rather have "name" first
  435. Ge0rG and the applications sorted
  436. jonasw Ge0rG: I can’t force the json module to do a specific key sorting
  437. jonasw which means that without sorted keys, we would end up with random sorts on each save
  438. jonasw which is very bad
  439. Ge0rG Yay for python json
  440. jonasw it’s based on a security feature
  441. Ge0rG jonasw: but you could sort the applications in the array by name, couldn't you? :D
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  443. jonasw yes, that’s possible
  444. mathieui jonasw, can’t you use PYTHONHASHSEED?
  445. mathieui to fix the dict key order
  446. jonasw mathieui: and find a hash seed which happens to do what we want?
  447. jonasw interesting hack.
  448. mathieui :D
  449. jonasw requries everyone to set PYTHONHASHSEED though ;-)
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  451. jonasw (you can’t set it from within python)
  452. jonasw Ge0rG: I’ll make a PR which will make a nasty diff and sorts the entries, and then we can discuss there if we want to do that
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  454. Ge0rG jonasw: +1
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  459. Ge0rG damn, I was too slow in adding Bruno, now it's a new PR
  460. jonasw ah, nice, it doesn’t even produce a diff
  461. Guus You snooze, you loose, Ge0rG
  462. Ge0rG Guus: jonasw is at fault, I was following the README and got confused about the non-sorting
  463. jonasw blame shifting!
  464. Ge0rG jonasw: incorrect documentation :P
  465. Guus I have a hard time having a serious discussion with someone that just added a software entry named "bruno the jabber bear"
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  467. jonasw Ge0rG, Guus: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/288
  468. Guus jonasw: Ge0rg appears to be making up info categories, is that ocrrect?
  469. Ge0rG Guus: what about the person that is maintaining Bruno the Jabber Bear for over four years now?
  470. Guus jonasw: you need to change that newline in data/libraries.json?
  471. jonasw Guus: it is what happens when you run the tool on the file
  472. Guus k
  473. Ge0rG Guus: you mean the ones in clients.json? I think we need to rework them all, categorically
  474. jonasw the tool doesn’t put a newline on the end, I ran it to canonicalise
  475. jonasw ack, Ge0rG
  476. jonasw ideally, we would have them worked out in such a way that we can automatically split the tables on them as has been proposed in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/193
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  478. Ge0rG jonasw: yes please. We can work together on a canonic list of platforms
  479. jonasw Android, iOS, Linux, Windows, MacOS
  480. jonasw anything else?
  481. Guus heh. No love for windows phones :P
  482. jonasw "Browser" "Console" "IBM i" "Linux" "Mobile" "Mobile (Android)" "Mobile (Android, Blackberry (BBOS), Nokia Symbian S40" "Mobile (Android, iOS)" "Mobile (BlackBerry)" "Mobile (iOS)" "OSX" "S60 and Asha)" "Text-Mode" "Web" "Windows"
  483. Guus wow.
  484. jonasw right, browsers probably make sense
  485. Tobias do we have to have mobile permutations?
  486. jonasw splitting for common mobile OSes probably makes sense
  487. Tobias just allow multiple OS categories
  488. jonasw we do
  489. Ge0rG My special favorite is the unterminated "("
  490. dwd Ge0rG, That had my OCD kick in.
  491. jonasw sorry, my fault
  492. Guus ")"
  493. jonasw that was my code foolishly splitting on / when creating the entries. the "Mobile (Android, Blackberry (BBOS), Nokia Symbian S40" belongs to the "S60 and Asha)" one later
  494. dwd breathes.
  495. jonasw I’m preparing a cleanup now
  496. Ge0rG jonasw: good dea to properly refactor it now.
  497. jonasw and then have a keen eye on the PRs
  498. Tobias dwd, just open your scheme handbook for medication
  499. Guus jonasw: we ideally have some sort of script that checks for this, which we can hook up on travis or another github check.
  500. jonasw can do
  501. Ge0rG what's the current name of OS X? "macOS"?
  502. Tobias macOS
  503. jonasw can we agree on the list of platforms first though?
  504. Ge0rG jonasw: yes please
  505. Alex has left
  506. jonasw suggestion: [ "Android", "iOS", "MacOS", "Linux", "Windows", "Web", ]
  507. Tobias jonasw, happy to...if new platform comes up we can always issue another PR
  508. Tobias that's macOS with small m..otherwise looks fine
  509. jonasw although, there are those blackberries
  510. Guus I'd go with "Mobile", and "Mobile (iOS only)" "Mobile (Android only)"
  511. nicolas.verite has joined
  512. Tobias Mobile is implicit with Android and iOS
  513. nicolas.verite has left
  514. jonasw Guus: I’m doing this with prospect that we might at some point automatically split the table by platform. Having Mobile (iOS) and Mobile (Android) is annoying there.
  515. jonasw (and another Mobile which implies both)
  516. Ge0rG jonasw: "MacOS" -> "macOS"
  517. Ge0rG Guus: -1
  518. Ge0rG jonasw: maybe "Browser" instead of "Web"?
  519. nicolas.verite has joined
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  521. jonasw discuss!
  522. Ge0rG and what to do with "Console" and "Text-Mode"?
  523. nyco let's keep it simple?
  524. nyco console, web, ios, android
  525. jonasw console isn’t a platform
  526. jonasw it’s a frontend
  527. Guus "misc"
  528. Guus "other"
  529. nyco no
  530. jonasw nyco: is your console stuff on MS-DOS, Windows, Linux or whatever runs on my router?
  531. intosi jonasw: all UI is a front-end.
  532. nyco "unrelevent"
  533. Ge0rG jonasw: "Windows" is a frontend to NTOSKRNL
  534. nyco KISS
  535. Tobias just allow free tagging for OS values and we try to normalize it on demand as a community?
  536. jonasw another question, do we want this also for servers? if so, we need to add "*BSD" and "Solaris" to the list :)
  537. dwd jonasw, "POSIX", and a massive argument as to whether that strictly covers Linux or not.
  538. Ge0rG Linux is a Unix, so maybe we need a generic Unix?
  539. blabla has joined
  540. jonasw fun!
  541. Tobias Ge0rG, not so fast there
  542. Tobias :P
  543. Ge0rG jonasw: also rename 'info' into 'platform'
  544. vurpo has left
  545. Ge0rG it will conviniently move it below 'name'
  546. jonasw Ge0rG: in the tooling? that’s complicated, it doesn’t apply to libraries
  547. SamWhited Is Linux a Unix? I don't think that it is; maybe some individual distros pass the Unix specification?
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  552. Guus You guys made Kev run.
  553. intosi macOS is a certified UNIX.
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  555. jonasw seriously though, what to do about Console / Text-Mode?
  556. dwd jonasw, Nothing?
  557. jonasw dwd: Nothing as in "keep it" or Nothing as in "drop it"?
  558. Flow what about non-IM clients?
  559. Ge0rG I'm slightly for "drop"
  560. dwd jonasw, It's not a platform, certainly.
  561. dwd jonasw, So drop it.
  562. jonasw then we end up with some clients without platformbs
  563. jonasw because they only specified "Console / Text-Mode" (e.g. Finch and GNU Freetalk"
  564. Flow like bots and such
  565. jonasw s/"/)/
  566. jonasw ugh
  567. Ge0rG jonasw: remove non-matching items from non-renewed software, let authors sort out
  568. Guus wanders off
  569. jonasw clever
  570. jonasw Ge0rG: I’d rather leave it as it is and we sort them out when the software is getting renewed
  571. jonasw but I’m going to canonicalise those for which it makes sense now
  572. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm still for renaming "info" into "platform", because programming languages are platforms as well
  573. jonasw Ge0rG: you could’ve brought that up before it was merged
  574. Ge0rG jonasw: Guus is too fast.
  575. jonasw the PR was hanging there for weeks
  576. jonasw well, at least one
  577. jonasw (I think)
  578. Guus I WANDERED OFF!
  579. jonasw hm, maybe only two days
  580. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm not in the habit of opening and reading random PRs
  581. jonasw "the plans were there in the local planning department on Alpha Centauri"
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  585. Ge0rG https://twitter.com/Xabber_XMPP/status/844865634672435200 - awesome!
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  590. jonasw I wonder whether daniel knows about that
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  592. Ge0rG Holger, daniel: engage your lawyers! https://twitter.com/Xabber_XMPP/status/844865634672435200
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  594. jonasw Guus: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/289
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  596. Ge0rG jonasw: neither "Blackberry" nor "Nokia Symbian" make sense.
  597. jonasw i have no idea
  598. Flow hmm I wonder if kontalk and conversations.im got a similar letter
  599. jonasw it was written there in Mobile (…)
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  601. Guus jonasw: I will definately forget to do the manual checks at some point. Please make travis fail when desired.
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  603. Ge0rG jonasw: it's slightly similar to writing "Unix"
  604. jonasw Guus: the issue is that we cannot agree on what is desired
  605. Ge0rG jonasw: I propose "other mobile" for platforms that lost the mobile platform war
  606. Guus jonasw: that does not take away the fact that travis should fail on a to-be-determined list
  607. jonasw okay
  608. Alex has joined
  609. Guus can you do linting of the json files too?
  610. jonasw will do
  611. Guus 💕
  612. goffi intosi: it seems you're right, thanks for the reply. That's unfortunate, I would like that an entity can write/retrieve or or more item(s) without being able to get any other one
  613. vurpo has left
  614. Ge0rG jonasw: "info" -> "platform"? :D
  615. vurpo has joined
  616. jonasw Ge0rG: it’s on the way… I only have two hands
  617. jonasw one step after the other
  618. Ge0rG jonasw: yay! :)
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  641. moparisthebest wait Ge0rG you have to let the german govt know if you start a server on your machine there? or I read it wrong?
  642. Ge0rG moparisthebest: if you are running a commercial public service
  643. Zash Don't forget to register your blog with the ministry of truth.
  644. moparisthebest so, I ran forums (with private messaging?) and still an IRC server on a hetzner server in germany since 2006, I'm breaking german law since I never contacted anyone?
  645. Ge0rG moparisthebest: only if you have ads on it, or advertise yourself as a professional somethingsomething
  646. moparisthebest the forum had ads, the irc server does not
  647. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the forum qualifies then
  648. moparisthebest what's the purpose for this anyway? requiring backdoors or?
  649. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I'll let the authorities know, expect an extradition request soon.
  650. moparisthebest ha I guess so :)
  651. daniel Just put up a sign that says it's verboten for Germans to use your service
  652. moparisthebest maybe huge german hosting companies like hetzner might let foreigners know this...
  653. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the reason is to have a list of companies providing telecommunication services to the public, to better protect people's privacy and to allow for lawful interception
  654. moparisthebest those last 2 items are completely contradictory, but whatever :)
  655. moparisthebest add some doublethink in there and it's fine
  656. Zash Ge0rG: Is this new?
  657. Zash Or is this the data retention thing resurfacing?
  658. daniel Not new. We have always bin at war with Eurasia
  659. moparisthebest seriously with this definition what *doesn't* constitute as a 'telecommunication service' ?
  660. Ge0rG Zash: not sure, maybe ten years or so. Not much to do with data retention.
  661. moparisthebest I think a static html page without javascript might, but that's communication in one direction to multiple people even
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  666. Ge0rG there is also a public directory of such telco providers, with proper postal addresses given (probably so you can sue them)
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  669. Flow daniel: did you already saw the Android O preview?
  670. moparisthebest creepy, so where could you properly host an xmpp server? sealand?
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  673. Zash define properly
  674. Zash define your threat model
  675. daniel Flow, i saw the announcment. https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/844257001668513793
  676. Flow yep exaclty, note that they also did something similar in the Android M preview
  677. moparisthebest Zash, properly as being able to just start a server and not register with the ministry of truth first
  678. Flow and later added the whitelist for battery optimizations
  679. Flow in the final release
  680. daniel i'm still a bit unsure if the permission to ignore battery optimizations might not include that as well
  681. sonny has joined
  682. daniel otherwise how are the playservices supposed to run?
  683. Zash moparisthebest: I'm not aware of any such requirement in .se. Also pretty sure that anything self-hosted is fine.
  684. Flow daniel: I hope so, but I also wouldn't be suprised if google made it an system-app exclusive feature
  685. Ge0rG Android O looks like Android 0.
  686. Zash Android Zero
  687. daniel abwarten und tee trinken
  688. Ge0rG daniel: do you know from your head what is needed to make a foreground notification that's slightly greyed out and not displayed together with actual message notifications? (I don't even know how to properly word what I mean, sigh)
  689. daniel Ge0rG, low priority
  690. Ge0rG daniel: thanks!
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  694. Ge0rG daniel: you could create a Conversations wallpaper service!
  695. jonasw Guus, Ge0rG: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/290
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  701. Ge0rG jonasw: platforms += ["Other"]?
  702. jonasw Ge0rG: really? let’s see how it plays out without that.
  703. jonasw would be okay with replacing "Other Mobile" with "Other" though
  704. kaboom has left
  705. Ge0rG jonasw: might work well enough as well
  706. Ge0rG jonasw: are those platforms.json for clients only or also for servers and libs?
  707. jonasw not intended to be used for libs, may be used for servers in the future
  708. jonasw but currently that’s not enforced
  709. Ge0rG jonasw: I imagine a common platforms json for server and client is okay, and a separate one for libs
  710. Ge0rG OTOH, you don't really often need to filter libs by platform.
  711. jonasw I don’t think we need one for libs, right
  712. Ge0rG for clients, there is immediate benefit.
  713. Ge0rG Is the clients.json also hosted somewhere on xmpp.org? I could use it to automatically generate the list in easy-xmpp-invitation
  714. jonasw it is not, afaik
  715. jonasw but should be possible
  716. Ge0rG BTW, it would be nice to also have a description field in the json, though it should be named differently, to be after "name""
  717. Guus Ge0rG: it obviously is hosted here: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/xsf/xmpp.org/master/data/clients.json
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  719. Ge0rG Guus: thanks
  720. jonasw Ge0rG: updated
  721. jonasw Ge0rG: it wouldn’t be shown on the website then though, right?
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  723. jonasw Guus: I’m not that good with travis, also I don’t know the environment. However, running ./data/lint-list.py clients.json ./data/lint-list.py servers.json ./data/lint-list.py libraries.json is what you wanted me to make possible. Those will fail with non-zero exit codes when there are errors.
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  726. Guus jonasw: travis executes: make html
  727. Guus does it make sense to hook it into that?
  728. jonasw Guus: I’d rather add additional commands
  729. Ge0rG jonasw: "it"?
  730. jonasw Ge0rG: the description
  731. Ge0rG jonasw: would it be hard to add?
  732. jonasw Ge0rG: no, not particularly, but I wonder if that’s the right place.
  733. jonasw and if it will be well maintained if it isn’t shown on the website, and what’s next
  734. jonasw also, wasn’t someone else working on a registry of software?
  735. jonasw or rather, a way for software to publish their manifests
  736. jonasw then we could simply add a url_manifest or something like that
  737. Guus jonasw: if I read https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/customizing-the-build/ correctly, you can simply add items to the script directive in .travis
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  739. jonasw Guus: do you know if python3 is available in the travis build?
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  744. Guus https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/languages/python/
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  747. jonasw Guus: this will make different builds with different versions of python.
  748. jonasw the default appears to be 2.7
  749. jonasw I have to adapt the linter to work with that
  750. jonasw which is not trivial because the .casefold() method used for sorting requires python 3.3+
  751. Guus it is all chinese to me. What happens if we make the entire thing run in python 3.3?
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  753. jonasw Guus: not sure if pelican survives that. at least it probably makes the environment on the server more different from the environment in travis
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  755. jonasw I’ll try to figure out a way to make travis run the linting with python 3.3+ and the website build with 2.7
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  757. Guus I'm not sure what version of python is running on the server in the first place?
  758. jonasw I don’t know either, but pelican still defaults to 2.7 afaik
  759. intosi It's a Debian system, so 2.7.
  760. intosi By default, that is.
  761. intosi I didn't dare run Pelican with anything else.
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  774. moparisthebest does anyone know if dino has a muc? or like, any way to find out what xeps it supports than source code spelunking? https://github.com/dino/dino
  775. moparisthebest does anyone know if dino has a muc? or like, any way to find out what xeps it supports other than source code spelunking? https://github.com/dino/dino
  776. intosi A muc, or muc support?
  777. lskdjf moparistthebest: we don't have a muc yet, but setting one up is on the todo. And for the supported xeps, they are roughly "listed" here https://github.com/dino/dino/tree/master/xmpp-vala/src/module/xep , although some are only partially implemented
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  783. jonasw no stream management?
  784. Ge0rG hi lskdjf, you are one of the devs?
  785. moparisthebest yea I actually meant 'do they have a muc' but I would have also been interested in if they had xep support
  786. lskdjf jonasw: no, not yet
  787. moparisthebest thanks much lskdjf
  788. Ge0rG moparisthebest: star https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/13 :P
  789. lskdjf moparisthebest: muc xep support exists, yes
  790. lskdjf Ge0rG, yes I am
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  792. moparisthebest star or thumbs up? I only see thumbs up
  793. Ge0rG moparisthebest: star up and thumb it!
  794. moparisthebest I thumbed it
  795. Ge0rG lskdjf: I wanted to pitch https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_XMPP to you :D
  796. moparisthebest never heard of vala before, looks kind of java-y which I like, will watch closely :)
  797. Holger moparisthebest: The point of Vala is avoiding C in the GObject/GTK+/GNOME world. The syntax is built around the GObject model and it compiles to C code.
  798. lskdjf moparisthebest: As far as I read, vala is mainly ment to be c#-like (which again is similar to java...). But it's really nice. I always thought of UI-development being a horror, but I started liking it, vala integrates GTK really nicely.
  799. Holger moparisthebest: Other than that it's really just yet another totally boring Java/C#-like language yes :-)
  800. moparisthebest I absolutely *love* the idea of languages compiling to C, I've seen a couple like that
  801. Ge0rG a totally boring C#-like GTK-only language.
  802. moparisthebest it's pretty ingenious, then you get compiler and great optimization for free
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  804. dwd moparisthebest, No, you don't.
  805. dwd moparisthebest, You get a compiler, sure, but you could have got that by writing an LLVM frontend.
  806. Zash Doesn't GCC still have better optimizations than LLVM & co?
  807. dwd moparisthebest, You don't get as good optimization, because you have to have machine generated C in the middle, and that loses both semantics and probably injects a lot of boilerplate.
  808. moparisthebest it seems like when a new archictecture comes out a C compiler comes with it at minimum, not necessarily llvm output
  809. Zash But who cares, the CPU will just re-optimize the machine code anyways.
  810. dwd Zash, Different level. It's not like you can run badly written C and it'll miraculously recompile it.
  811. dwd Zash, It's more that some of the ASM hand-optimization is done by the CPU these days.
  812. daniel has left
  813. moparisthebest dwd, I'm not convinced a compiler author could output good llvm but not good C
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  815. dwd moparisthebest, More scope, I think, for optimization at the transcoding stage.
  816. moparisthebest I'm not sure how llvm handles that, if you can have 'optimal' llvm code, how is it optimal across platforms where there are different optimal ways to do things?
  817. moparisthebest but also it locks you to llvm which doesn't support everything, idk, I still think in theory I like the C idea better, practice may be different
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  820. edhelas hello everyone, I'm planning to work on some XEPs in the upcoming days. I've already done some work on the OMEMO XEP based on the discussions that we had during the FOSDEM Summit of this year.
  821. Flow has joined
  822. edhelas what is the best way to submit it, should I do a PR ?
  823. SamWhited edhelas: Yes please!
  824. edhelas perfect :) I'll do that asap
  825. edhelas also I'm (finally) planning to work on the Bookmark XEP
  826. jonasw SamWhited: are you watching the xeps repo or shall one notify the editors team directly when one issues a PR?
  827. SamWhited jonasw: It will email me when someone opens a PR
  828. daniel has left
  829. jonasw okay thanks
  830. SamWhited (yes, watching, what you said)
  831. Flow lskdjf: small patch incoming :)
  832. edhelas SamWhited, because I'm changing how OMEMO bundles are published and retrieved, should I bump the urn:xmpp:omemo to :1 ?
  833. edhelas it seems that no clients is currently using urn:xmpp:omemo:0 for now
  834. Flow moparisthebest: source-to-source is often worse than source-to-IR
  835. SamWhited edhelas: Sounds like that's a breaking change, so I'd think so, but I'm not sure. You could chat with daniel about the change maybe
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  839. daniel afaik andy is going to bump to omemo:1 pretty soon anyway
  840. Flow edhelas: I think you should have coordinated your changes with the authors
  841. edhelas it's not done yet :)
  842. edhelas just wondering so I can actually coordinate
  843. Flow but if they are small enough, just issuing an PR may be also without that mutch overhead
  844. Flow i've heard that there is a secret MUC where all the OMEMO devs idle around
  845. Flow but maybe it's just a rumor
  846. edhelas they are all encrypted :(
  847. lovetox so how far is the movim implementation of omemo?
  848. edhelas for now on pause, that's why I'd like to work on the XEP first
  849. edhelas I think that I'll work on it in a month of two (got some other things to implement first)
  850. lovetox ok but if i remember the thing right about bundles, this was only a cosmetic change, nothing which would you hold back in an implementation
  851. lovetox or is there more you want to change?
  852. edhelas mostly how the bundles are published for no
  853. edhelas https://edhelas.movim.eu/0384.xml
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  900. nyco SamWhited, I propose this as a starting point: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/294
  901. nyco arc, please add PyCon stuff, sorry...
  902. jonasw nyco: did you mean to ping Guus?
  903. nyco oh, as well, you're right... and you jonasw as well ;-)
  904. nyco ping all, in fact ;-)
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  909. lovetox how do i find out if im still in a room?
  910. jonasw lovetox: MUCs? I think Ge0rG knows a bit about that.
  911. lovetox if i send a ping to the muc it answers with service unavailable, but im in it and it works
  912. Ge0rG lovetox: you need to send a ping to your nickname
  913. lovetox ahh
  914. lovetox nice idea ^^
  915. Ge0rG lovetox: and then wait for the ping response, not for a reflection of the request
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  917. Ge0rG lovetox: you need to ping periodically, and have a sufficiently high timeout (maybe 30-60s?)
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  919. lovetox hm why though? i have only the problem that gajim doesnt rejoin a channel if the stream management resume fails for some reason
  920. lovetox so i intending only on reconnect to send a ping
  921. jonasw lovetox: if resume fails, you can know for sure that you’re not in the muc anymore
  922. Ge0rG Old yaxim used to ignore IQs when too many were received, which tripped on a series of self pings from poezio
  923. jonasw (the server should’ve sent unavailable presence for you)
  924. lovetox jonasw, yeah right ...
  925. Ge0rG lovetox: what jonasw said
  926. lovetox ok thanks for the help
  927. jonasw if you *had* stream management before. If you didn’t, you cannot know really (unless you managed to replace your old resource, but this is trickerlyand).
  928. jonasw *trickeryland
  929. Guus has left
  930. lovetox lets assume everyone has streammanagement :D
  931. Ge0rG lovetox: you can't rely on unavailable presence, and some servers don't properly synchronize you if you send a join to an "already joined" MUC. Best workaround is to send presence unavailable right before the join
  932. jonasw Ge0rG: you’re saying we can’t rely on "if the stream resumption fails, the server has sent unavailable presence and we can re-join"?
  933. jonasw *re-join without trickery
  934. Ge0rG And then you need to perform a magic mushroom rain dance and sacrifice a goat
  935. jonasw or wait it out until MIX sweeps away all that tricky state :)
  936. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm sure MIX will have its fair share of tricky state
  937. jonasw Ge0rG: prevent it by reading the standard closely and fixing it before it becomes Draft :)
  938. Ge0rG jonasw: let's see when I find another two hours
  939. jonasw #iliketrains
  940. edhelas I'm currently working on the Bookmark 2.0 XEP here https://lite5.framapad.org/p/OlHwr5GBlY (go to the bottom of the page)
  941. jonasw "CAN" is not an RFC 2119 word
  942. edhelas thanks :)
  943. jonasw also, since you’re asking inline, MIX doesn’t need that anymore, MIXes are in the roster and annotated as MIXes
  944. Ge0rG jonasw [20:08]: > Ge0rG: you’re saying we can’t rely on "if the stream resumption fails, the server has sent unavailable presence and we can re-join"? No, I'm saying that if you were in the MUC before, and aren't any more, it's better to send presence unavailable
  945. edhelas jonasw, ok perfect
  946. edhelas so maybe I should simply remove this part
  947. jonasw Ge0rG: like, always, even if I left intentionally?
  948. jonasw Ge0rG: why sending unavailable twice?
  949. Ge0rG jonasw: no, in that case you'll be fine probably. Unless there was an s2s interruption while you tried to leave
  950. jonasw edhelas: I am not deeply familiar with PEP and such, does PEP work well if different xeps building on it use pubsub collections?
  951. jonasw Ge0rG: the s2s link hopefully uses SM as well.
  952. edhelas well that where the definition of PEP is unclear
  953. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm not aware of any s2s links with SM enabled
  954. jonasw edhelas: at least, the node names are shared between different PEP usecases, so I’d worry about conflicts there
  955. edhelas for me PEP can be a Pubsub node created under a user JID
  956. edhelas jonasw, good remark
  957. jonasw edhelas: another thing: I’m not sure if PEP allows multiple items per node. I think Zash mentioned that it’s not necessarily given that having multiple items is possible.
  958. jonasw (well, it might *allow* it, but may not guarantee it)
  959. Zash Persisting multiple items, or persisting at all isn't guaranteed
  960. edhelas jonasw, then 0277, 0330 and the proposal of OMEMO that I'm doing are broken :)
  961. Zash I don't remember if there were distinct features advertised for all types
  962. jonasw edhelas: reference for roster-stuff: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing
  963. edhelas jonasw, yup found it, thanks
  964. jonasw edhelas: have you considered <group/> for consistency with the roster itself instead of <tag/>?
  965. edhelas jonasw, I do
  966. jonasw (not saying that <group/> is a good name)
  967. edhelas the thing is that I'm even wondering if this <tag> thing should maybe be moved to another XEP
  968. jonasw why?
  969. edhelas then we can actually tags Pubsub items
  970. edhelas in general
  971. jonasw hm
  972. edhelas also i'd really like to be able to tag Pubsub nodes, is it possible to tag MIX as well ?
  973. jonasw I sure hope that it’s possible to add <group/>s to MIX roster entries
  974. jonasw we should ping steve about that
  975. edhelas actually now I'm simply wondering if the Bookmarks 2.0 will not be useless with MIX
  976. jonasw it may very well be
  977. jonasw if it’s primary use case is MUCs
  978. edhelas actually I was also dreaming about having browsers bookmarks sync over XMPP :D
  979. jonasw edhelas: maybe ask steve about the <group/> thing for MIX roster entries on-list, i.e. if it’s possible to modify the groups of MIX roster entries like normal roster entries
  980. edhelas I'll :)
  981. edhelas thanks for all the tips !
  982. jonasw you’re welcome!
  983. edhelas I'll also continue to review the MIX XEP, I already made some comments and remarks on it
  984. edhelas I'd really like to clarify everything to be sure that we cover all the use cases
  985. jonasw yes
  986. jonasw although at this point I think I need to implement it before I can further comment on it
  987. edhelas personnally I don't see it directly as a MUC remplaceant
  988. edhelas I'm planning to publish Atom items on it to really have a social network usage of it
  989. jonasw I think it’ll serve as a muc replacement for many of the mundane uses
  990. edhelas so now I'm wondering how we will be able to handle comments :D
  991. edhelas or "threads" in MUC discussions
  992. jonasw edhelas: re comments: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html
  993. jonasw re threads: there is the <thread/> element from RFC 6121, but nobody has come up with a good UI for it yet
  994. edhelas mhhh
  995. jonasw (you could also use the <thread/> thing for comments in fact, if you control the participating clients and UI)
  996. edhelas I think that this need to be clarified
  997. edhelas I'll try to read on it
  998. jonasw there is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0201.html
  999. edhelas are you planning to work on an implementation, in which client/server ?
  1000. jonasw I’m planning to work on MIX in aioxmpp
  1001. jonasw (client library)
  1002. edhelas ok
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  1005. SamWhited jonasw: not immediately necessary, but if you're going to make some changes to ecaps2 is there any chance I could get you to also add registry submissions to it? Eg. in the XEP that defines the registry it should have a little snippet of XML to include in the XEP (which is also what goes in the registry). Eg. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html#registrar-reg-features
  1006. goffi has joined
  1007. jonasw SamWhited: ah, yes
  1008. SamWhited If not I can make something up, but I figured you'd have more context and could write a better description.
  1009. SamWhited thanks!
  1010. jonasw for some odd reason I haven’t seen those when I was looking at examples
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  1012. jonasw btw, is anyone here using emacs to edit XEPs?
  1013. jonasw or spacemacs rather?
  1014. SamWhited yah, they probably don't all have them
  1015. SamWhited I need to update the disco-features registry to support provisional entries too; I just really hate looking at XML / XSLT so I haven't gotten around to trying to figure it out.
  1016. waqas has left
  1017. jonasw I like XSLT
  1018. jonasw let me know what you need.
  1019. jonasw is there a stream features registry?
  1020. SamWhited ooh, if you really want too, the registries are located here: https://github.com/xsf/registrar
  1021. waqas has joined
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  1023. SamWhited For the namespaces registry, I updated the vars.xsl and vars-xml.xsl file (which generate the HTML and the actual XML registry, respectively) to support a <status/> element on each entry, which would create a separate "Provisional" table for things that are still experimental (when things go to draft the provisional label goes away and they go into the actual registry)
  1024. SamWhited the same needs to be done for features.xsl and features-xml.xsl
  1025. waqas has joined
  1026. jonasw will do one I figured out how a stream feature registration shall look like
  1027. SamWhited I'm not actually sure if there's a stream features registry
  1028. jonasw there is an XML file at least
  1029. SamWhited oh yah, sure enough
  1030. SamWhited I guess that one probably needs its XSLT files updated too
  1031. jonasw I also see from xep 53 that I should’ve appended :0 to the namespace
  1032. jonasw shall I do that now, while I’m at it, to have it consistent?
  1033. SamWhited jonasw: You can if you want, but you could also wait until there was a breaking change and it would be fine; it's just a convention, but not having it (and then adding it) is the same as having it and bumping the version, it just changes the string :)
  1034. jonasw yeah
  1035. jonasw was just wondering.
  1036. Ge0rG jonasw: you like XML meta stuff? PARS still needs a schema, and I'd appreciate some support with that
  1037. jonasw Ge0rG: unfortunately, I’m not good at schemas
  1038. jonasw I only understand the very basics
  1039. jonasw SamWhited: added a commit to my PR, let me know if that’s the format that’s needed
  1040. SamWhited Thanks! Works for me
  1041. jonasw SamWhited: I may be wrong, but I think Disco features already get a provisional table
  1042. SamWhited jonasw: I don't see it, but maybe I forgot how this works
  1043. jonasw when I generate the HTML locally, I see this: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/vZytdqh1MtbxSWpbTeSj9FZRULo_RCjCdudkVoN8rzY.png
  1044. SamWhited oh, maybe I'm looking at the wrong xsl file
  1045. jonasw I think so. features.xsl is for stream features if I’m not mistaken.
  1046. SamWhited yah, I'm looking at the stream features one
  1047. Guus jonasw, I'm going to hijack your travis commit, k?
  1048. jonasw Guus: feel free
  1049. jonasw I totally forgot about it in the meantime
  1050. jonasw the build took more than a few seconds to start and then I forgot about it
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  1052. jonasw it’s missing ; fi on those if lines
  1053. Guus not any more...
  1054. jonasw ah cool :)
  1055. waqas has left
  1056. jonasw thanks!
  1057. Guus don't thank me just yet...
  1058. Guus ooh, green
  1059. jonasw but it didn’t run with two versions
  1060. Guus so... if I now break one of the json files, it should fail again, right?
  1061. jonasw try replacing the whole matrix: block with: python: - "2.7" - "3.3"
  1062. Guus isn't that what I did?
  1063. jonasw no, it’s: matrix: - python: 2.7 - python: 3.3 if I read the diff correctly
  1064. jonasw buidls with different python versions should look like this: https://travis-ci.org/horazont/aioxmpp/builds/213925500 (there should be sub-builds for each version)
  1065. Guus aaah, yeah, sloppy copy/paste
  1066. Guus https://travis-ci.org/xsf/xmpp.org/builds/214394838
  1067. Guus that's more like it
  1068. Guus linting now fails
  1069. Guus is that to be expected?
  1070. jonasw ha right
  1071. jonasw that’s my fault
  1072. jonasw haven’t tested the linting with libraries
  1073. jonasw will fix, sec
  1074. Guus harhar
  1075. Guus simply proving that it works as intended. Good job.
  1076. Guus you should claim that it was intentional.
  1077. jonasw right. totally intentional.
  1078. Guus perhaps make the error messages a bit more verbose?
  1079. jonasw even more verbose?
  1080. Guus so that random people understand what they need to fix
  1081. jonasw if they use update-entry.py, they won’t encounter that type of error
  1082. Guus yeah, clear to people that are most likely to be unaware of the restrictions, but still need to fix the problem.
  1083. Guus I'm assuming that most people will simply manually edit the json file instead of running that script. I know I will.
  1084. jonasw fair enough
  1085. Guus what is the problem? those entries need to be in alphabetic order?
  1086. Guus but, good job! this will be very helpful!
  1087. nicolas.verite has joined
  1088. Guus jonasw: feel free to squash some of those commits... :)
  1089. jonasw ugh
  1090. jonasw squashing will be interesting
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  1094. Guus meh, simply fixup of some of the odd travis commits
  1095. jonasw ah, cleaned it up a bit more thoroughly
  1096. jonasw SamWhited: https://github.com/xsf/registrar/pull/27
  1097. jonasw Guus: we need to talk what to do about those three or four pull requests for renewals which already came in in the mean time
  1098. jonasw I’m fine if you merge them, then I’ll rebase my updates to the tooling on top of them
  1099. jonasw and then we can merge the tooling updates. Even though I’d like to mention that this touches the template files and iteam may want to take a quick look at the diffs as due diligence
  1100. Guus jonasw: that might be best
  1101. Guus tobias, kev, intosi ^
  1102. jonasw even though the diff is very trivial this time: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/290/files#diff-01d6617e31aefee1df9589f998afb6de
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  1105. Guus I like how already, people are modifying their entries
  1106. jonasw indeed
  1107. Guus lots of bigger and smaller website updates
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  1109. Guus heh, sco0ter links to http://xmpp.rocks which he redirects :)
  1110. jonasw let me know when you’re done merging
  1111. Guus Done
  1112. Guus are you addressing https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/193 too, btw
  1113. Guus (make the list sortable/filterable?)
  1114. jonasw I‘m not
  1115. Guus could you? :)
  1116. jonasw haven’t looked into the magic done for the xep list
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  1118. jonasw that’s verging into the space of javascript, which I try to avoid
  1119. SamWhited jonasw: Awesome; thanks!
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  1122. Guus I know the feeling
  1123. jonasw Guus: updated my PR with new data
  1124. jonasw Guus: let us take that issue up when the renewal deadline is over.
  1125. jonasw then we’ll have a clear list of platforms
  1126. jonasw then we may decide how to present them
  1127. jonasw I have different ideas in mind, but they won’t work if we have a mess of platforms
  1128. Guus whatever works
  1129. Guus I don't care to much either way
  1130. Guus heh, there's another client update :)
  1131. Guus feel like rebasing once more, jonasw?
  1132. jonasw sure
  1133. jonasw although I‘d rather wait to a point where someone can merge the updates afterwards
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  1137. Guus ?
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  1139. jonasw well, it’s easier to rebase them in a large batch
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  1141. jonasw less overhead
  1142. Guus still not sure what you mean
  1143. Guus but, if you rebase once more, I'll merge
  1144. jonasw ah!
  1145. jonasw then it’s fine :)
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  1149. jonasw Guus: done!
  1150. Guus I'm assuming you didn't sneak in anything nasty in this last commit... :)
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  1153. jonasw you could grep over the touched files and see if anything outside data has been touched and take a quick look
  1154. jonasw git will even show it to you when you do the merge I think
  1155. jonasw travis passed
  1156. moparisthebest aw total missed chance to rootkit the server jonasw
  1157. jonasw tips his white hat to moparisthebest
  1158. moparisthebest jonasw, I clicked on your image earlier, do you run your own dnssec capable dns servers or what?
  1159. moparisthebest I rarely see the lock in my browser except on my own sites and debian.org...
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  1161. jonasw moparisthebest: yes
  1162. nicolas.verite has joined
  1163. jonasw although I wonder what image you’re talking about :)
  1164. moparisthebest jonasw, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/dnssec-validator/
  1165. moparisthebest no DANE set up though :)
  1166. jonasw I guessed that this was the lock you were talking about, but not which image ;-)
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  1168. jonasw oh it has DANE, but not for HTTPS
  1169. jonasw was more trouble than worth it
  1170. moparisthebest oh you rotate keys with letsencrypt too?
  1171. moparisthebest I keep the same key, just get new certs, and DANE pins my key
  1172. jonasw with the amount of HTTPS domains, it doesn’t scale to maintain the TLSAs. the gain is virtually zero compared to XMPP and SMTP (where I *do* maintain TLSA)
  1173. jonasw I don’t rotate keys, but still.
  1174. moparisthebest yea the gain is 0 because only the 4 people running that plugin validate them :)
  1175. moparisthebest but if you don't rotate keys it should be easy to add one record per domain
  1176. moparisthebest one day when I add DANE support to conversations it'll check it for https too
  1177. jonasw those are a lot of domains though.
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  1179. Guus if someone else could merge my renewals... (feels wrong to do it myself)
  1180. jonasw I can’t ;-)
  1181. moparisthebest jonasw, what server(s) are you using for dns? are they geographically seperated and such?
  1182. jonasw moparisthebest: pdns on a host in .de, I have backups in .at and in another facility in .de
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  1186. Guus allrighty
  1187. Guus thanks for the had work jonasw
  1188. Guus I'm off to watch some tv
  1189. jonasw you’re welcome
  1190. jonasw good luck
  1191. Guus I'll need it
  1192. Guus my wife promised me 'trash tv' :S
  1193. jonasw stay away from the news.
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  1195. Guus ohh, the trainwreck that's the US vote
  1196. Guus that'd be good
  1197. Guus grabs popcorn
  1198. moparisthebest jonasw, thanks I'm always curious about other's dnssec setups since it's such a pain :)
  1199. jonasw with powerdns it’s very trivial really. at least if you don’t mind keeping the keys online
  1200. jonasw it takes care of ZSK rollovers by itself
  1201. jonasw (and you can of course keep a backup KSK offline if you want to)
  1202. moparisthebest I run bind9 at my house as a hidden primary, then use https://freedns.afraid.org/secondary/, https://puck.nether.net/dns/dnsinfo, https://acc.rollernet.us/dns/secondary.php (2 servers) as 'free secondaries' to actually publically host it
  1203. Guus could a couple of you +/- https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/275 please?
  1204. moparisthebest so 4 different NS server locations, 3 different organizations, I feel fairly confident they won't all go down at once
  1205. Guus I don't mind much not doing it either (although I think it'd be nice), but I'd like to know the general feeling
  1206. Guus SamWhited: is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/279 this something that you can fix?
  1207. jonasw I feel too new to the whole thing to comment on that on the issue, but I don’t have any strong opinion one way or the other either.
  1208. jonasw moparisthebest: that sounds reasonable ;-)
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  1211. moparisthebest jonasw, bind9 rolls over ZSKs by itself too, still have never rolled over my KSKs yet, but if it's good enough for IANA with .com and .org and such then it's good enough for me :)
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  1238. SamWhited Guus: I don't know how any of the website stuff is generated or where the refs come from, sorry
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  1274. bear SamWhited Guus -- if those links are broken then we need to add them to the nginx redirect list to fix them
  1275. Guus bear: yes please! i have more redirect candidates, but just went to bed.
  1276. bear k, let me see if I can get to that
  1277. Guus 💖
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  1279. Zash U+1F496 SPARKLING HEART
  1280. Zash Unicode ...
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  1282. bear Guus just add them to Issue #224
  1283. Bunneh bear: Mix #224 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/224
  1284. bear silly bunneh -- https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/224
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  1287. Zash bear: Didn't consider multiple repos.
  1288. bear it's ok - I didn't realize it would auto-expand, now i'll be more careful
  1289. Zash I can turn it off
  1290. bear nope - I don't think that's needed - again, it's just me not having been in channel recently to know better
  1291. bear IMO it's more helpful to default to XEPs than web stuff
  1292. Zash The way it's written, the repo and the room JID are tied together. ( https://code.zash.se/riddim/file/tip/plugins/github.lua if anyone wanna poke around )
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