XSF Discussion - 2017-03-24

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  78. Guus nyco?
  79. jonasw we should make a nice graph of at which time of day people make their renewal commits :)
  80. Ge0rG jonasw: yeah, it might be leaking private information.
  81. Guus jonasw: did you account for people setting the renewal date in the future? :)
  82. jonasw Guus, not in the linting, but good idea
  83. edhelas hi guys, once again we are working on a new XEP that will replace Bookmarks in the futur, https://lite5.framapad.org/p/OlHwr5GBlY
  84. jonasw Ge0rG, *shrug*, so does making a commit in your library
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  87. jonasw Guus: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/300
  88. edhelas also https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/458 :)
  89. Guus edhelas: I weild no power in that repo. You'll need SamWhited or friends for that, I think.
  90. edhelas Guus, no problem ;) it was just to drop the link here
  91. nyco Guus, yes?
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  93. Guus nyco: l wanted to discuss with you if I should do something that I now already have done :)
  94. Guus (see github)
  95. Guus we should get your blogpost published!
  96. jonasw it would be great if the website showed the commit used to build it somewhere, even if only somewhere hidden in the source.
  97. Guus jonasw: make it so.
  98. jonasw that’d save us the "has it rebuilt yet or did something obscure fail?" guesswork
  99. nyco Guus, I agree, but we've just published one... this afternoon maybe ?
  100. nyco Guus, category Events, fixed
  101. Guus nyco - there will be a unknown delay between the merge being done, and the change being visible on the website.
  102. nyco like minutes?
  103. Guus unsure. I think there is a process that checks a couple of times per day if the website needs to be updated.
  104. Guus so, possibly, hours.
  105. jonasw I think so, too
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  107. Guus jonasw, I think you're the resident expert: is there value in upgrading pelican from 3.3 to whatever is the latest version?
  108. jonasw I don’t know, actually
  109. jonasw I have started using pelican only a few weeks ago, either ;-)
  110. jonasw (but then spent a few intense days to port two websites to it)
  111. nyco ok, then let's push when we think it's good, and it's updated when it's updated... ;-)
  112. jonasw Guus: in case of doubt, don’t change a running system
  113. Guus which makes you the expert. :)
  114. jonasw I don’t even know which version is recent…
  115. Guus jonasw: agreed. I was actually running locally with 3.7 (which was wat I got with a default install), which gave me errors.
  116. jonasw 3.7 according to my debian…
  117. jonasw huh
  118. jonasw it builds the website fine here
  119. jonasw (3.7.1)
  120. Guus nyco: it looks good to me now. Do you want another screenshot?
  121. nyco yes please, if it takes less than 30 seconds
  122. Guus jonasw: for me, the menu was kaput. Also, 3.7 was more forgiving when I neglected to specify the number of items in a menu correctly.
  123. jonasw Guus: you need to run make devserver or something though instead of simply running pelican for reasons unknown to me
  124. jonasw oh right
  125. jonasw menu
  126. jonasw that explains why I had a hard time finding the software lists when testing :D
  127. jonasw well, that’s one good reason to wait with upgrading
  128. jonasw or at least plan it properly
  129. Guus nyco: 32. I counted. Nost of that was trying to resize the browser window.
  130. nyco toooooo long!!!
  131. Guus jonasw: agreed - but it does suggest that there are important changes, which made me wonder.
  132. jonasw Guus: ctrl+shift+m on firefox (re resizing)
  133. Guus jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/247
  134. nyco yes, cool, I see no glitch... thx Guus! ;-)
  135. nyco also, on our blog, we should insert visuals
  136. nyco can I do that, or it's too late?
  137. Guus go for it
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  139. nyco I upload a picture to the repo? or use an online pic?
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  141. Guus lol, I added the screenshot to the wrong PR :P
  142. jonasw nyco: put it in content/images/, maybe in a new blog subdirectroy
  143. Guus nyco: I have no clue.
  144. jonasw then the only question is how to reference it properly, this varies with pelican versions unfortunately
  145. nyco ok, we'll try on another blog post
  146. jonasw what *should* work is this: |filename|/images/blog/thenameofyourimage.foo
  147. nyco sorry no time for today
  148. nyco ok
  149. jonasw (filename is literally filename, see here: http://docs.getpelican.com/en/stable/content.html#deprecated-internal-link-syntax )
  150. Guus nyco, are or are you not going to change anything?
  151. nyco Guus, not this time
  152. Guus Then I"ll merge now.
  153. Guus done.
  154. Guus any concerns about https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/294 ?
  155. jonasw yes
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  157. Guus jonasw: what concerns?
  158. jonasw making a review right now, at least I found a typo
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  160. Guus nyco: can we remove https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meetups and use the website instead?
  161. Guus duplicate accounting will only result in problems
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  163. jonasw Guus: review done
  164. nyco good catch!
  165. nyco I'm on it
  166. Guus typo fixed
  167. Guus link added
  168. Guus I'm tempted to make futher improvements in future PRs, if needed
  169. jonasw no objections
  170. Guus could you do one last sanity check?
  171. jonasw just thought the typo needs to be fixed before, the others are merely MAY suggestions
  172. Guus absolutely, tx
  173. jonasw Guus: works for me
  174. jonasw +1
  175. Guus done
  176. Guus I'm gonna merge my own updates too
  177. Guus *naughty*
  178. jonasw do it
  179. Guus done it
  180. jonasw looks better that way than with three open renewal PRs pending
  181. jonasw that may evoke bad feeling for some who waited months to have their software listed ;-)
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  183. jonasw *feelings
  184. jonasw (or servers)
  185. jonasw can we close website PR # 193?
  186. jonasw https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/193
  187. jonasw the changes it carries are obsolte anyways
  188. Guus great minds
  189. Guus I just closed it
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  191. jonasw :)
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  195. jonasw goffi makes a good point here: <https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2017-March/090299.html>
  196. jonasw do we want that? If so, on a separate page or below the servers listing?
  197. jonasw Finding good components is not trivial to be sure
  198. Ge0rG my gut feeling is to merge it with the servers lisst
  199. jonasw and also it highlights a core feature of XMPP, being able to interface with other protocols by embedding them
  200. Ge0rG my gut feeling is to merge it with the servers list
  201. jonasw I wouldn’t merge it, because they’re different things, but putting them on the same page might work
  202. Ge0rG good to me too
  203. Ge0rG same page, different table
  204. jonasw right
  205. Ge0rG also we really should have that description field.
  206. jonasw I just now realised you’re not Guus. I got tricked despite colours. (I blame it on the fact that the pidgin colours changed radically when I changed the background color by only a few bits from 99% white to 98% white or something)
  207. jonasw yes, for components it’s definitely needed, otherwise you don’t know what it is.
  208. jonasw *sigh*
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  212. Guus Stop impersonating me Ge0rG!
  213. Guus There's something to adding server components to a public list. I don't have a preference how that's done.
  214. Ge0rG Guus: I'd change my nickname, but that's impossible because of MSN restrictions.
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  216. intosi Ge0rG: switch to AIM, and you're done.
  217. jonasw *switch to AIM to reach your goals
  218. Ge0rG but my aim isn't very good
  219. Guus I think this concludes my round of fixes for today
  220. Guus I'd be greatful if someone *eyes intosi* could help sort out some of the issues that need access to the file system of the webserver
  221. Guus (where did the XEP archives go? Can we add various redirects? Delete the old ical files + related infra, etc)
  222. intosi Guus: tickets?
  223. intosi Or a ticket, at least ;)
  224. Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/280
  225. Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/279
  226. Guus possibly https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/242
  227. Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/241
  228. Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/224 (which is somewhat duplicated by another one)
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  230. Guus also, I don't know what this means: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/152
  231. Guus ... and that's just from a quick glance over the issue list... :)
  232. jonasw of 152, I think most don’t apply to a static website without confidential content or interaction.
  234. intosi ;)
  235. jonasw you asked for it! ;-)
  236. Guus I'm trying to get that fixed intosi, but there's only so much I can do myself
  237. Guus (which i mostly did, afaik)
  238. Guus what do you guys think about https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/212 ? We should either commit to it, or close the issue.
  239. Ge0rG IMO, closing 152 as WONTFIX would be OK
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  241. intosi I fail to see what 279 tries to cover that 224 doesn't.
  242. Guus please comment on the ticket, which makes it less awkward for me to close it.
  243. Ge0rG Guus: +1 to WONTFIXing 212
  244. Guus intosi: yeah, probably duplicates.
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  247. Guus also, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/275 - no one but me really likes that, right?
  248. Guus in which case it should be closed
  249. Ge0rG meh. you can't click on blog post titles on https://xmpp.org/blog.html to read the full version.
  250. intosi 275 is not something I will fix for you ;) It's content anyway, so you can fix it, or not fix it, without help ;)
  251. Guus yes - apart from the annoying bit that I don't know any of those people :D
  252. Ge0rG I think the issue with 275 is to find the right text for the individual persons listed
  253. jonasw Ge0rG: right, that annoyed me too
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  255. jonasw it’s easy-ish to fix though
  256. Guus jonasw: please do
  257. Ge0rG jonasw: +1
  258. jonasw you two are guilty for the dirty kitchen!
  259. jonasw I take it back. the CSS is SASS
  260. jonasw I cannot into sass
  261. Guus jonasw: please note that I am here just slightly longer than you :)
  262. Guus but I like cooking...
  263. Ge0rG jonasw: how is that a CSS issue? Isn't it rather about HTML <a>?
  264. jonasw yes, but it changes the colour of the header then
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  266. Ge0rG jonasw> of 152, I think most don’t apply to a static website without confidential content or interaction. can you add that to the ticket?
  267. jonasw did
  268. Guus intosi, out of curiosity: what is the update frequency of the website (how often does it check for changes in github), and why?
  269. jonasw Guus, Ge0rG: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/301
  270. Guus screenshot?
  271. jonasw on my way
  272. jonasw >.>
  273. jonasw github doesn’t like my screenshots
  274. jonasw "That file is hidden"
  275. jonasw "Something went really wrong"
  276. Guus wow.
  277. Guus I just use 'select file' in the comment box
  278. jonasw yes
  279. jonasw that’s what I do
  280. Guus file permission problem?
  281. jonasw now it works
  282. jonasw screeshot attached
  283. Guus perhaps put quotes around the title in the link?
  284. jonasw I also thought about prefixing it with "about"
  285. Guus Continue reading 'New XMPP Software Listing Rules'
  286. jonasw it’s reaaallly hard to edit those files while the devserver thing writes over your vim terminal btw :D
  287. Guus I have this handy Vagrant image...
  288. Guus (or you just could use two terminals)
  289. Guus yeah, that's better
  290. jonasw new commit+screenshot attached
  291. jonasw agreed
  292. jonasw ping Ge0rG
  293. Guus I'm not bothered by the missing green
  294. Guus if anything, it makes it more coherent with the rest of the site
  295. jonasw I liked the touch of colour, and I’ll probably bring it back once I figure out how to use sass
  296. jonasw it makes it less coherent on how the blog article looks after you followed that link
  297. Guus ah, right.
  298. jonasw last time I tried to use sass I was baffled that it takes 30 seconds to process a few files
  299. jonasw ugh
  300. Guus yeah, I frequenly work with people that gave Maven flak for downloading a lot of stuff and taking a lot of time. I now get to look at them funny every time they make me do npm install.
  301. jonasw :>
  302. Guus The PR looks good to me. I'll leave it sit for a bit for others to be able to comment
  303. jonasw looking forward to do apt remove npm grunt; apt autoremove after this
  304. jonasw grave bugs of npm (→ 1.4.21+ds-2) <Outstanding> b1 - #857986 - npm: package is 3 years old (consider removal?) Summary: npm(1 bug)
  305. jonasw I cannot into sass, now it’s not finding some included files which also aren’t in the repository.
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  310. Guus intosi, anything I can help with?
  311. intosi Just triaged right now. Where I made remarks, consider them and you (or others) provide an answer, and I'll make it so when it's more convenient, and doesn't interfere with my actual job ;)
  312. jonasw ah, right, intosi, can you give some details on how the website is built on the server? I’d like to know (a) if it is rebuild completely (i.e. with a fresh output directory) every time and (b) if so, does it do that unconditionally any N hours or does it check if a "change" happened and (c) if the latter, how does it detect a "change"?
  313. intosi Peace, out.
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  316. jonasw ah, darn, too slow
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  323. Guus thanks for your help! I'm off to do some work that actually pays bills too :)
  324. intosi (Y)
  325. Guus I've provided feedback where needed, I think. As far as I'm concerned: just do it. (c)(r)(tm).
  326. Guus things here are left in limbo way too long for my comfort
  327. Guus an improvement that is later improved upon further is better than having no improvement at all.
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  329. Guus bear, can this be closed: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/109 ?
  330. Guus hmm: I can't add an "item for discussion" on the Trello board for the Board. Could someone add https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/175 there? It's a relative simple clean-up.
  331. Guus dwd / ralphm / samWhited ?
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  334. Ge0rG jonasw: +1 to the blog changes, even with blue instead of green
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  377. nyco OH LOOK... on Hacker News: the URL may contain news.ycombinator.com and then /newest please upvote the meetup entry quickly (before it goes away) if you want/can and then comment, still if you want
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  387. intosi nyco: an actual url to the HN article in question might be a few orders of magnitude more efficient...
  388. intosi https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13948527 for instance, that would've helped.
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  390. Zash Wasn't the theory that they count votes less if you go there directly?
  391. nyco NOOOOOO
  392. nyco it has the actual opposite effect!
  393. Ge0rG Less is more. War is peace.
  394. nyco efficient for what? so that you click?
  395. Ge0rG we are already identified by HN as being part of the "xmpp trolls" cluster.
  396. Zash Ignorance is bliss
  397. Guus I am shocked.
  398. jonasw you broke the pattern
  399. nyco clicking on the URL in a short amount of time by a few people actually decreases the scoring thus it will be less visible, and visible for a shorter period of time
  400. Ge0rG nyco: by any people or just by logged-in HN members?
  401. Guus so, here's a tought: perhaps we shouldn't try to affect the ranking at all, and let the actual algorithm do its thing? :)
  402. Ge0rG Guus: no, we need a blackhat SEO to make XMPP more prominent.
  403. nyco Ge0rG, both
  404. nyco Guus, exactly, so say to people how they can reach it, do not push the actual URL
  405. jonasw nyco: so by placing a ycombinator-link to, for example, slashdot, I can kill it?
  406. jonasw that sounds like fun
  407. nyco yes
  408. jonasw how broken is that?
  409. nyco Reddit has that as well, and so forth with Product Hunt, etc.
  410. jonasw and that are probably the same people who complain about facebooks filtering
  411. nyco no, no, nooo, it is NOT broken, it is actually FIXING the click shemas!
  412. jonasw no, I don’t get why clicking a link without interacting with the voting would have any effect
  413. jonasw either positive or negative
  414. jonasw that’s just broken
  415. nyco an enterprise asks all the employees to click "+" in a URL... that's a common practice, that must be fought
  416. jonasw that’s a different story, I agree
  417. jonasw but if I don’t vote, I think my click on the link should not have any influence
  418. Guus awesome! and you just told us to go click somewhere :D
  419. jonasw +1 Guus
  420. nyco Guus, not "told", asked politely... and I have not given the direct URL, that's the point
  421. Ge0rG "go click yourself!"
  422. nyco jonasw, -1
  423. jonasw nyco: only to trick the system
  424. Guus potatoes potatoes :D
  425. jonasw you would’ve given the URL if it wouldn’t affect our score, right?
  426. jonasw Ge0rG: click the button?
  427. nyco jonasw, no, that's a "if you want/can"
  428. nyco jonasw, that was not a "do that"
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  430. jonasw I don’t feel that makes a huge difference
  431. jonasw but then again, I’m allergic to viral marketing
  432. nyco that is a little polite push, not a massive fraud
  433. Guus nyco: we're not discussing the manner in which the question is asked, but the fact that it's an artificial attempt to influence a score.
  434. nyco jonasw, it is not about what you feel, it is about the algo behind
  435. jonasw "Die Grenzen sind fließend.", as we say in germany
  436. nyco jonasw, which means?
  437. jonasw "the line is blurry", probably
  438. Guus fluent borders
  439. Guus ?
  440. Guus ah, that makes more sense :)
  441. nyco wow guys... we cannot win...
  442. Guus I don't consider myself to be in a competition
  443. Guus <-- most aweful marketing person *ever*
  444. nyco sure, but the other guys will win
  445. jonasw oh, I am.
  446. nyco Guus, that's the point
  447. nyco we massively lack marketing at the XSF
  448. jonasw nyco: I agree that some marketing is important. I disagree with manipulating scores.
  449. nyco so don't slow it down when we attempt to fix a little the awfulll situation that we are in
  450. jonasw I’d like to know what kind of marketing daniel did to make Conversations fly actually.
  451. nyco a little openness guys...
  452. jonasw oh, waqas, you’re around. do you have a minute to take a look at XEP-0390? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html
  453. nyco Conversations does not fly, it has 10 to 50k downloads on Play Store
  454. Guus yeah, again - i'm not in an aweful situation. I get to do cool stuff - I could not care less if it's used by 10 or 10,000 people.
  455. nyco also he gets out of the building quite often: Twitter, blog posts, events/slides
  456. jonasw nyco: that’s pretty flying
  457. Guus but hey, I won't stop anyone from promoting XMPP either :)
  458. nyco jonasw, WhatsApp and FB Messenger are above a billion, a billion
  459. jonasw I know
  460. jonasw but the network effect isn’t linear either
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  462. Guus I think that Daniel primarily build a pretty good client.
  463. nyco at 50k you don't get any network effect
  464. Guus which made him stand out.
  465. jonasw promotion won’t fix anything unless we can provide people with software which doesn’t suck though
  466. nyco 5 years ago you could reach critical mass at 1 million, now it is rather several millions
  467. nyco jonasw, That. Let's do that now.
  468. jonasw I’m on it!
  469. Ge0rG I have a paid amateur radio app on Play Store that's also in the 10k-50k bin. It's the #1 app for its use case though, and people know it.
  470. jonasw I just ditched a class to be able to do some polishing on my client before I hand it in to Prototype Fund. which will also get publicity if it’s accepted.
  471. jonasw Ge0rG: you also have a dice app I found out. I actually have that installed :D
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  473. Ge0rG jonasw: did you have it installed before you knew me?
  474. jonasw ye
  475. jonasw *yes
  476. Ge0rG yay! I'm famous!
  477. Ge0rG jonasw: I only wrote that app because there was a bunch of dice apps before, and they all sucked.
  478. jonasw that’s the best reason for writing an app
  479. Guus perhaps we should do that for XMPP clients.
  480. jonasw I’m on it.
  481. Ge0rG I usually need a dice app because I forgot my dice, and not because I want to shake my phone like crazy.
  482. jonasw when I’m not busy with website PRs :-)
  483. Guus (obligatory xkcd reference in 3, 2, 1 ...)
  484. jonasw Ge0rG: seriously?
  485. Ge0rG Guus: this is also why I got involved with yaxim... back in 2009
  486. Ge0rG jonasw: yeah.
  487. jonasw oh-kay, so do those people also write SMS by moving their phone like a pen?
  488. daniel has left
  489. Guus presumably, yes. If you can write them the app to do that.
  490. Ge0rG I'm sure there is a market for that.
  491. jonasw s/sure/afraid/
  492. Ge0rG Afer all, ICQ got famous for using a typewriter click sound on each key press
  493. jonasw there are terminal apps which do the same
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  498. waqas jonasw: I'm skimming through XEP-0390, it seems sensible at first glance
  499. jonasw thanks for taking a look!
  500. waqas jonasw: I'll later try to implement this in simple code, which would help think through any edge cases
  501. jonasw that’d be awesome
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  511. Guus "if I didn't find anything I don't think that would be enough to count as evidence that problems don't exist." <-- I think Kev was just dethroned as the king of double negatives :)
  512. jonasw I fail to parse that
  513. Zash I haven't had enough coffee yet to even try
  514. intosi Don't see anything wrong with that sentence.
  515. sonny has joined
  516. jonasw my parsing suggests to add a ", but" behind "anything" to make it readable
  517. sonny has joined
  518. Holger I don't think I would say that I don't see anything wrong with that sentence, but that doesn't mean any problems exist in it.
  519. Zash "I have only proved the sentence correct, I have not tested it"
  520. Holger Does it compile?
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  528. nyco hey, do we have stats/traffic numbers on the xmpp.org website?
  529. Guus I'm not seeing an obvious tracker in the source of the pages (like google analytics). Unsure if we generate statistics from the access logs.
  530. Zash Nothing says "Privacy-focused" like Google Analytics
  531. Guus Nothing says "Privacy-focused".
  532. Guus sorry. You did. :)
  533. Zash and https://xmpp.org/
  534. Guus I sit corrected.
  535. jonasw Zash: what about embedding ajax.googleapis.com? :-)
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  538. jonasw Zash: is https://prosody.im/chat/ that chat.tar.gz thing?
  539. Zash yes
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  541. jonasw Zash: any comments on https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/101 ?
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  543. Zash I'm still sad that Candy isn't as maintained as it should be
  544. blabla has joined
  545. SamWhited I tried the Candy demo again recently, it just said "Connecting" forever so I gave up
  546. SamWhited (where "recently" == "just now")
  547. Guus We run Candy at www.igniterealtime.org/support/group_chat.jsp
  548. Zash SamWhited: Seen mod_candy?
  549. Guus It has quircks, but it's usable.
  550. SamWhited nicknames seem to be fixed anyways
  551. Zash Has the issue been fixed where if I join as both "Zash" and "zash", one gets ignored?
  552. SamWhited "username already in use"
  553. Ge0rG there is an SPA version of Converse.js at https://github.com/jcbrand/inverse.js which is even-more-beta
  554. Guus unsure - there are many oddities. One of my biggest gripes with Candy is that it dies (without letting the user know) on any uncaught error.
  555. Guus which gives people the impression that no-one is responding.
  556. waqas My main gripe with Candy were the XHTML-IM security issues…
  557. vurpo has left
  558. Guus waqas: I disabled XHTML-IM in our instance - it introduces instability
  559. waqas Good
  560. Guus so those might still be in there
  561. SamWhited they do appear to be escaping things properly and not sticking stuff in attributes now at least; do they support XHTML-IM? Regardless of how good things are otherwise, as far as I'm concerned that is a security risk in and of itself.
  562. Guus they support it, but you can disable the support
  563. Guus and/or not enable it - I'm not sure anymore, it was a long time ago
  564. bjc has left
  565. Ge0rG What's the use case we are talking about? single-page anonymous access to a MUC?
  566. SamWhited Yup
  567. Ge0rG then maybe prosody's chat is the way to go, with some fancy CSS around it
  568. Ge0rG jonasw: buggy has a question mark behind it, mainly because it's just a tarball on a web page that hasn't been touched in years
  569. waqas Mainly because nothing has really changed in terms of requirements
  570. blabla has joined
  571. SamWhited Candy seems okay now (at least, the way I think I got it last time has been fixed), but I have gotten it to execute arbitrary JS in the past. Prosody's web chat is literally the only one that I don't think I've been able to inject or otherwise break too badly.
  572. SamWhited only one out of the ones I've tried, obviously.
  573. waqas SamWhited: Same. And I'd tried many, including ones without xhtml-im and desktop clients...
  574. SamWhited *nods*
  575. Zash I'm not sure the tarball reflects what is actually used either
  576. bjc has joined
  577. SamWhited It's fairly easy to style too; eg. https://muc.mellium.im/ for a project that doesn't actually exist that I will launch one day.
  578. Guus for the record: i think you guys are overly cautious. I'd rather go with a well maintained project than a dormant one.
  579. Guus but, if we can pick any one client, i'm happy to go with that.
  580. SamWhited I'd rather go with simple and low footprint for attack over anything else; but maintained would be nice too.
  581. Ge0rG if the prosody devs would make it a real project, with an issue tracker etc, it would instantly lift off
  582. Guus I think that any client has a decent amount of complexity, and vectors of attack - perhaps not that one that we test for now, but eventually, something will be found.
  583. Ge0rG as it is, one could get the impression it is an unmaintained student project that was dropped on a web page a decade ago
  584. SamWhited Ge0rG: Who would maintain it in that case?
  585. waqas I'm curious how much demand there is
  586. Zash Ge0rG: Someone did that, then added tons of broken features and then forgot all about it.
  587. waqas Yeah, I think the main concern would be scope creep. It was designed to be one simple thing: provide users with chatrooms anonymously. Stuff like admin-tools, etc were out of scope.
  588. Ge0rG I'm okay with the feature scope, but I need to think of it like an admin: if I install it onto my machine, I need some way to update it, monitor for CVEs etc.
  589. Ge0rG As it is now, it doesn't even have a name
  590. Zash "Chat"
  591. Zash Have you noticed how our issue tracker is called issue tracker?
  592. Ge0rG Zash: "chat.tar.gz" rather?
  593. SamWhited "chat tarball" — good name, I like it!
  594. Ge0rG jonasw> Zash: is https://prosody.im/chat/ that chat.tar.gz thing?
  595. Ge0rG let's call it "that chat.tar.gz thing"
  596. Zash :D
  597. jonasw TCTGZT
  598. jonasw catchy
  599. Guus Chatty McChatface, please.
  600. SamWhited The Client Formerly Known as chat.tar.gz
  601. waqas chat tarball… chatball.. magic chatball! It's perfect!
  602. Ge0rG Guus: +1
  603. Yagiza has left
  604. Guus so... after a year and a half, let's pick a webchat client.
  605. Guus who can create a PR that introduced Chatty McChatface?
  606. Guus introduces*
  607. jonasw *That Chat.tar.gz Thing
  608. Zash Watch out, it's that chat.tar.gz thing!
  609. Guus ... anyone?
  610. MattJ Ge0rG, in your post about Chatball (which I hadn't seen before) maybe mention mod_muc_ban_ip in the Prosody config part as a side note
  611. Ge0rG MattJ: I'm not sure what I should say about mod_muc_ban_ip in there
  612. MattJ Guus, I guess I could
  613. Guus Thanks mattJ!
  614. Guus for reference, we've been tracking the effort in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/101
  615. MattJ BOSH endpoint?
  616. Zash or WEBSOCKETS
  617. MattJ I don't think there's currently one on xmpp.org, unless I'm mistaken
  618. MattJ I possibly still have SSH access there so I could set it up
  619. Zash MattJ: Can I convince you to get rid of mod_muc_log_http?
  620. MattJ and replace with?
  621. Zash mod_http_muc_log :)
  622. Guus MattJ, could you arrange that with the powers-that-be in the infra team (Kev, Intosi, Tobias, others?)
  623. MattJ Unless I was quietly kicked out, I think I'm still a (dormant) member of iteam :)
  624. MattJ Haven't worked on it for at least a year though, I reckon
  625. Guus Could you arrange that with yourself then? :)
  626. MattJ I'll do whatever is necessary to make the web chat work, and I won't stop till I'm done!
  627. MattJ But first, meetings...
  628. intosi Close shave.
  629. SamWhited that reminds me, I need to go to the barber.
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  632. jonasw any opinions on that one? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/302 I didn’t even know that page existed…
  633. Ge0rG am I the only one who can't click on the menu items on xmpp.org?
  634. Valerian has left
  635. jonasw worksforme, but I have 1st party JS enabled
  636. SamWhited you're not the only one; anytime menus are made with javascript bad things happen.
  637. jonasw it also works without though
  638. Flow jonasw: hmm 100k users
  639. Zash Doesn't jabber.org have on the order of 1M users?
  640. Ge0rG I do have JS enabled, the menups properly pop up and show the link, but clicking only makes the menu collapse, on Chromium 57
  641. Guus jonasw: I was somewhat unsure of that one too. I can't find any references to it on wikipedia (english nor italian)
  642. jonasw Ge0rG: all items or only specific ones?
  643. Guus not sure if that proves anything.
  644. Ge0rG jonasw: all items. I can click on the menu itself, and then click through from that category page
  645. SamWhited Maybe the number of users column should go away since it's a thing that will change and probably hard to verify anyways?
  646. Lance has joined
  647. Zash Maybe the page should die in a fire before it becomes used for marketing
  648. Guus SamWhited, sure.
  649. mhterres has left
  650. Guus Zash, sure.
  651. Flow what Zash said
  652. Zash Like how XEP support pages usually end up
  653. Guus Guys - make it so.
  654. jonasw remember to check for links to that page before burninating it
  655. jonasw I’m not available for any website patches anymore today, EBUSY
  656. Guus (perhaps dropping the table instead of the entire page would be a good compromise)
  657. Zash chatme is on the xmpp.net list already, so duplicating it on that page seems weird to me
  658. jubalh has left
  659. Ge0rG Maybe that page should only list XMPP-based services that are not XMPP servers?
  660. Ge0rG but I'm fine with killing it as well
  661. Steve Kille has joined
  662. jonasw it advertises WhatsApp!. kill it with fiiiiireeeeee. (well, okay, it may make people think "uh, whatsapp uses XMPP, maybe it isn’t *that* bad)
  663. Zash A clearly defined purpose / scope would be good
  664. Ge0rG jonasw: "it isn’t *that* bad" - WhatsApp or XMPP? :P
  665. jonasw Ge0rG: your choice
  666. Zash But HN says that WA is no longer XMPP
  667. Lance has left
  668. Ge0rG jonasw: I take "neither".
  669. dwd Zash, It hasn't been in ages, though. Question is whether it's still fundamentally based on XMPP or not.
  670. Zash As in, "they switched to Signal Protocol", which doesn't even make sense
  671. Zash I haven't seen any credible proof that it's not still "FunXMPP"
  672. jonasw I don’t care either.
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  716. fippo https://twitter.com/backlon/status/845327874928238593 -- did i miss the obituary notice?
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  719. Zash fippo: No, you've forgotten about it because it was soooo long ago
  720. Zash https://q.zash.se/86ed5344ab0a.txt .. seems Facebooks XMPP isn't entirely killed yet either
  721. fippo https://twitter.com/markb/status/845328381117956097 ... hrm... brb, I need to ask someone about this...
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  735. lovetox i need help, i tried to read RFC6121
  736. lovetox about IQ stanzas
  737. lovetox when using in band bytestream
  738. lovetox can it make sense to adress the stanzas to a barejid?
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  740. lovetox where does the server route such an iq stanza
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  742. lovetox im terrible with the whole filetransfer thing
  743. fippo that doesn't make sense. you need to figure out the full jid of someone before sending them a file
  744. lovetox thats what i thought
  745. lovetox the xep also has only examples with full jid, but it is never mentioned explicitly that stanzas have to be adressed to full jids
  746. lskdjf has left
  747. lovetox maybe because its obvious
  748. Zash https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#rules-localpart-barejid
  749. Zash > For an IQ stanza, the server itself MUST reply on behalf of the user with either an IQ result or an IQ error, and MUST NOT deliver the IQ stanza to any of the user's available resources.
  750. nyco has joined
  751. lovetox so in an ibb there can never be a iq involved that is not adressed to a fulljid
  752. Valerian has joined
  753. Zash In theory you could send the data in messages, but don't do that.
  754. lovetox no gajim does not do that
  755. Zash Okay?
  756. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0047.html#message
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  765. lovetox thanks zash, but we thats not an issue, gajim does not use messages for ibb
  766. Zash I don't understand
  767. Zash I'm saying that the XEP says you can if you really want.
  768. lovetox my question was about IQ stanzas and ibb, you posting of the rfc was the help i needed
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  839. arc official announcement is out, gtalk will be officially killed off this summer
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  859. moparisthebest arc: it's more akin to a merciful finishing off isn't it? It's better than staying running as broken as it is and giving xmpp a bad name
  860. MattJ Most people think it's already turned off
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