nycoI upload a picture to the repo? or use an online pic?
Guuslol, I added the screenshot to the wrong PR :P
jonaswnyco: put it in content/images/, maybe in a new blog subdirectroy
Guusnyco: I have no clue.
jonaswthen the only question is how to reference it properly, this varies with pelican versions unfortunately
nycook, we'll try on another blog post
jonaswwhat *should* work is this: |filename|/images/blog/thenameofyourimage.foo
nycosorry no time for today
jonasw(filename is literally filename, see here: http://docs.getpelican.com/en/stable/content.html#deprecated-internal-link-syntax )
Guusnyco, are or are you not going to change anything?
nycoGuus, not this time
GuusThen I"ll merge now.
Guusany concerns about https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/294 ?
Guusjonasw: what concerns?
jonaswmaking a review right now, at least I found a typo
Guusnyco: can we remove https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meetups and use the website instead?
Guusduplicate accounting will only result in problems
jonaswGuus: review done
nycoI'm on it
GuusI'm tempted to make futher improvements in future PRs, if needed
Guuscould you do one last sanity check?
jonaswjust thought the typo needs to be fixed before, the others are merely MAY suggestions
jonaswGuus: works for me
GuusI'm gonna merge my own updates too
jonaswlooks better that way than with three open renewal PRs pending
jonaswthat may evoke bad feeling for some who waited months to have their software listed ;-)
jonaswcan we close website PR # 193?
jonaswthe changes it carries are obsolte anyways
GuusI just closed it
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jonaswgoffi makes a good point here: <https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2017-March/090299.html>
jonaswdo we want that? If so, on a separate page or below the servers listing?
jonaswFinding good components is not trivial to be sure
Ge0rGmy gut feeling is to merge it with the servers lisst✎
jonaswand also it highlights a core feature of XMPP, being able to interface with other protocols by embedding them
Ge0rGmy gut feeling is to merge it with the servers list ✏
jonaswI wouldn’t merge it, because they’re different things, but putting them on the same page might work
Ge0rGgood to me too
Ge0rGsame page, different table
Ge0rGalso we really should have that description field.
jonaswI just now realised you’re not Guus. I got tricked despite colours. (I blame it on the fact that the pidgin colours changed radically when I changed the background color by only a few bits from 99% white to 98% white or something)
jonaswyes, for components it’s definitely needed, otherwise you don’t know what it is.
GuusStop impersonating me Ge0rG!
GuusThere's something to adding server components to a public list. I don't have a preference how that's done.
Ge0rGGuus: I'd change my nickname, but that's impossible because of MSN restrictions.
intosiGe0rG: switch to AIM, and you're done.
jonasw*switch to AIM to reach your goals
Ge0rGbut my aim isn't very good
GuusI think this concludes my round of fixes for today
GuusI'd be greatful if someone *eyes intosi* could help sort out some of the issues that need access to the file system of the webserver
Guus(where did the XEP archives go? Can we add various redirects? Delete the old ical files + related infra, etc)
jonaswit’s reaaallly hard to edit those files while the devserver thing writes over your vim terminal btw :D
GuusI have this handy Vagrant image...
Guus(or you just could use two terminals)
Guusyeah, that's better
jonaswnew commit+screenshot attached
GuusI'm not bothered by the missing green
Guusif anything, it makes it more coherent with the rest of the site
jonaswI liked the touch of colour, and I’ll probably bring it back once I figure out how to use sass
jonaswit makes it less coherent on how the blog article looks after you followed that link
jonaswlast time I tried to use sass I was baffled that it takes 30 seconds to process a few files
Guusyeah, I frequenly work with people that gave Maven flak for downloading a lot of stuff and taking a lot of time. I now get to look at them funny every time they make me do npm install.
GuusThe PR looks good to me. I'll leave it sit for a bit for others to be able to comment
jonaswlooking forward to do apt remove npm grunt; apt autoremove after this
jonaswgrave bugs of npm (→ 1.4.21+ds-2) <Outstanding>
b1 - #857986 - npm: package is 3 years old (consider removal?)
jonaswI cannot into sass, now it’s not finding some included files which also aren’t in the repository.
Guusintosi, anything I can help with?
intosiJust triaged right now. Where I made remarks, consider them and you (or others) provide an answer, and I'll make it so when it's more convenient, and doesn't interfere with my actual job ;)
jonaswah, right, intosi, can you give some details on how the website is built on the server? I’d like to know (a) if it is rebuild completely (i.e. with a fresh output directory) every time and (b) if so, does it do that unconditionally any N hours or does it check if a "change" happened and (c) if the latter, how does it detect a "change"?
jonaswah, darn, too slow
Guusthanks for your help! I'm off to do some work that actually pays bills too :)
GuusI've provided feedback where needed, I think. As far as I'm concerned: just do it. (c)(r)(tm).
Guusthings here are left in limbo way too long for my comfort
Guusan improvement that is later improved upon further is better than having no improvement at all.
Guusbear, can this be closed: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/109 ?
Guushmm: I can't add an "item for discussion" on the Trello board for the Board. Could someone add https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/175 there? It's a relative simple clean-up.
Guusdwd / ralphm / samWhited ?
Ge0rGjonasw: +1 to the blog changes, even with blue instead of green
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on Hacker News: the URL may contain news.ycombinator.com and then /newest
please upvote the meetup entry quickly (before it goes away) if you want/can
and then comment, still if you want
intosinyco: an actual url to the HN article in question might be a few orders of magnitude more efficient...
intosihttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13948527 for instance, that would've helped.
ZashWasn't the theory that they count votes less if you go there directly?
nycoit has the actual opposite effect!
Ge0rGLess is more. War is peace.
nycoefficient for what? so that you click?
Ge0rGwe are already identified by HN as being part of the "xmpp trolls" cluster.
ZashIgnorance is bliss
GuusI am shocked.
jonaswyou broke the pattern
nycoclicking on the URL in a short amount of time by a few people actually decreases the scoring
thus it will be less visible, and visible for a shorter period of time
Ge0rGnyco: by any people or just by logged-in HN members?
Guusso, here's a tought: perhaps we shouldn't try to affect the ranking at all, and let the actual algorithm do its thing? :)
Ge0rGGuus: no, we need a blackhat SEO to make XMPP more prominent.
nycoGuus, exactly, so say to people how they can reach it, do not push the actual URL
jonaswnyco: so by placing a ycombinator-link to, for example, slashdot, I can kill it?
jonaswthat sounds like fun
jonaswhow broken is that?
nycoReddit has that as well, and so forth with Product Hunt, etc.
jonaswand that are probably the same people who complain about facebooks filtering
nycono, no, nooo, it is NOT broken, it is actually FIXING the click shemas!
jonaswno, I don’t get why clicking a link without interacting with the voting would have any effect
jonasweither positive or negative
jonaswthat’s just broken
nycoan enterprise asks all the employees to click "+" in a URL... that's a common practice, that must be fought
jonaswthat’s a different story, I agree
jonaswbut if I don’t vote, I think my click on the link should not have any influence
Guusawesome! and you just told us to go click somewhere :D
nycoGuus, not "told", asked politely... and I have not given the direct URL, that's the point
Ge0rG"go click yourself!"
jonaswnyco: only to trick the system
Guuspotatoes potatoes :D
jonaswyou would’ve given the URL if it wouldn’t affect our score, right?
jonaswGe0rG: click the button?
nycojonasw, no, that's a "if you want/can"
nycojonasw, that was not a "do that"
jonaswI don’t feel that makes a huge difference
jonaswbut then again, I’m allergic to viral marketing
nycothat is a little polite push, not a massive fraud
Guusnyco: we're not discussing the manner in which the question is asked, but the fact that it's an artificial attempt to influence a score.
nycojonasw, it is not about what you feel, it is about the algo behind
jonasw"Die Grenzen sind fließend.", as we say in germany
nycojonasw, which means?
jonasw"the line is blurry", probably
Guusah, that makes more sense :)
nycowow guys... we cannot win...
GuusI don't consider myself to be in a competition
Guus<-- most aweful marketing person *ever*
nycosure, but the other guys will win
jonaswoh, I am.
nycoGuus, that's the point
nycowe massively lack marketing at the XSF
jonaswnyco: I agree that some marketing is important. I disagree with manipulating scores.
nycoso don't slow it down when we attempt to fix a little the awfulll situation that we are in
jonaswI’d like to know what kind of marketing daniel did to make Conversations fly actually.
nycoa little openness guys...
jonaswoh, waqas, you’re around. do you have a minute to take a look at XEP-0390? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html
nycoConversations does not fly, it has 10 to 50k downloads on Play Store
Guusyeah, again - i'm not in an aweful situation. I get to do cool stuff - I could not care less if it's used by 10 or 10,000 people.
nycoalso he gets out of the building quite often: Twitter, blog posts, events/slides
jonaswnyco: that’s pretty flying
Guusbut hey, I won't stop anyone from promoting XMPP either :)
nycojonasw, WhatsApp and FB Messenger are above a billion, a billion
jonaswbut the network effect isn’t linear either
GuusI think that Daniel primarily build a pretty good client.
nycoat 50k you don't get any network effect
Guuswhich made him stand out.
jonaswpromotion won’t fix anything unless we can provide people with software which doesn’t suck though
nyco5 years ago you could reach critical mass at 1 million, now it is rather several millions
nycojonasw, That. Let's do that now.
jonaswI’m on it!
Ge0rGI have a paid amateur radio app on Play Store that's also in the 10k-50k bin. It's the #1 app for its use case though, and people know it.
jonaswI just ditched a class to be able to do some polishing on my client before I hand it in to Prototype Fund. which will also get publicity if it’s accepted.
jonaswGe0rG: you also have a dice app I found out. I actually have that installed :D
Ge0rGjonasw: did you have it installed before you knew me?
Ge0rGyay! I'm famous!
Ge0rGjonasw: I only wrote that app because there was a bunch of dice apps before, and they all sucked.
jonaswthat’s the best reason for writing an app
Guusperhaps we should do that for XMPP clients.
jonaswI’m on it.
Ge0rGI usually need a dice app because I forgot my dice, and not because I want to shake my phone like crazy.
jonaswwhen I’m not busy with website PRs :-)
Guus(obligatory xkcd reference in 3, 2, 1 ...)
Ge0rGGuus: this is also why I got involved with yaxim... back in 2009
jonaswoh-kay, so do those people also write SMS by moving their phone like a pen?
Guuspresumably, yes. If you can write them the app to do that.
Ge0rGI'm sure there is a market for that.
Ge0rGAfer all, ICQ got famous for using a typewriter click sound on each key press
jonaswthere are terminal apps which do the same
waqasjonasw: I'm skimming through XEP-0390, it seems sensible at first glance
jonaswthanks for taking a look!
waqasjonasw: I'll later try to implement this in simple code, which would help think through any edge cases
jonaswthat’d be awesome
Guus"if I didn't find anything I don't think that would be enough to count as evidence that problems don't exist." <-- I think Kev was just dethroned as the king of double negatives :)
jonaswI fail to parse that
ZashI haven't had enough coffee yet to even try
intosiDon't see anything wrong with that sentence.
jonaswmy parsing suggests to add a ", but" behind "anything" to make it readable
HolgerI don't think I would say that I don't see anything wrong with that sentence, but that doesn't mean any problems exist in it.
Zash"I have only proved the sentence correct, I have not tested it"
HolgerDoes it compile?
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nycohey, do we have stats/traffic numbers on the xmpp.org website?
GuusI'm not seeing an obvious tracker in the source of the pages (like google analytics). Unsure if we generate statistics from the access logs.
ZashNothing says "Privacy-focused" like Google Analytics
GuusNothing says "Privacy-focused".
Guussorry. You did. :)
GuusI sit corrected.
jonaswZash: what about embedding ajax.googleapis.com? :-)
jonaswZash: is https://prosody.im/chat/ that chat.tar.gz thing?
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jonaswZash: any comments on https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/101 ?
ZashI'm still sad that Candy isn't as maintained as it should be
SamWhitedI tried the Candy demo again recently, it just said "Connecting" forever so I gave up
SamWhited(where "recently" == "just now")
GuusWe run Candy at www.igniterealtime.org/support/group_chat.jsp
ZashSamWhited: Seen mod_candy?
GuusIt has quircks, but it's usable.
SamWhitednicknames seem to be fixed anyways
ZashHas the issue been fixed where if I join as both "Zash" and "zash", one gets ignored?
SamWhited"username already in use"
Ge0rGthere is an SPA version of Converse.js at https://github.com/jcbrand/inverse.js which is even-more-beta
Guusunsure - there are many oddities. One of my biggest gripes with Candy is that it dies (without letting the user know) on any uncaught error.
Guuswhich gives people the impression that no-one is responding.
waqasMy main gripe with Candy were the XHTML-IM security issues…
Guuswaqas: I disabled XHTML-IM in our instance - it introduces instability
Guusso those might still be in there
SamWhitedthey do appear to be escaping things properly and not sticking stuff in attributes now at least; do they support XHTML-IM? Regardless of how good things are otherwise, as far as I'm concerned that is a security risk in and of itself.
Guusthey support it, but you can disable the support
Guusand/or not enable it - I'm not sure anymore, it was a long time ago
Ge0rGWhat's the use case we are talking about? single-page anonymous access to a MUC?
Ge0rGthen maybe prosody's chat is the way to go, with some fancy CSS around it
Ge0rGjonasw: buggy has a question mark behind it, mainly because it's just a tarball on a web page that hasn't been touched in years
waqasMainly because nothing has really changed in terms of requirements
SamWhitedCandy seems okay now (at least, the way I think I got it last time has been fixed), but I have gotten it to execute arbitrary JS in the past. Prosody's web chat is literally the only one that I don't think I've been able to inject or otherwise break too badly.
SamWhitedonly one out of the ones I've tried, obviously.
waqasSamWhited: Same. And I'd tried many, including ones without xhtml-im and desktop clients...
ZashI'm not sure the tarball reflects what is actually used either
SamWhitedIt's fairly easy to style too; eg. https://muc.mellium.im/ for a project that doesn't actually exist that I will launch one day.
Guusfor the record: i think you guys are overly cautious. I'd rather go with a well maintained project than a dormant one.
Guusbut, if we can pick any one client, i'm happy to go with that.
SamWhitedI'd rather go with simple and low footprint for attack over anything else; but maintained would be nice too.
Ge0rGif the prosody devs would make it a real project, with an issue tracker etc, it would instantly lift off
GuusI think that any client has a decent amount of complexity, and vectors of attack - perhaps not that one that we test for now, but eventually, something will be found.
Ge0rGas it is, one could get the impression it is an unmaintained student project that was dropped on a web page a decade ago
SamWhitedGe0rG: Who would maintain it in that case?
waqasI'm curious how much demand there is
ZashGe0rG: Someone did that, then added tons of broken features and then forgot all about it.
waqasYeah, I think the main concern would be scope creep. It was designed to be one simple thing: provide users with chatrooms anonymously. Stuff like admin-tools, etc were out of scope.
Ge0rGI'm okay with the feature scope, but I need to think of it like an admin: if I install it onto my machine, I need some way to update it, monitor for CVEs etc.
Ge0rGAs it is now, it doesn't even have a name
ZashHave you noticed how our issue tracker is called issue tracker?
Ge0rGZash: "chat.tar.gz" rather?
SamWhited"chat tarball" — good name, I like it!
Ge0rGjonasw> Zash: is https://prosody.im/chat/ that chat.tar.gz thing?