XSF Discussion - 2017-09-13

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  53. Guus That was my first thought
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  72. jonasw good morning :)
  73. jonasw edhelas, wait what, pizzas?
  74. edhelas jonasw, yup, but you have to finish MIX before :(
  75. jonasw damn
  76. jonasw I hope MIX doesn’t become our Duke Nukem Forever
  77. SouL Haha :D
  78. jonasw even though I’m lucky that I don’t have contact to the people from ten years ago to whom I jokefully made promises based on "when Duke Nukem Forever gets released"
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  80. Ge0rG haha, I remember the bets on which comes first - DNF, PS3 or DM8000 (a highly anticipated Linux-driven HDTV set-top-box)
  81. jonasw which of those lost?
  82. Ge0rG the release order was PS3 -> DM8000 -> DNF
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  136. emxp moparisthebest, Guus: yes, an article about this said this too, but it's about the 'health of a community". but what do you think. would this be interesting for XMPP?
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  139. Guus emxp: i have not looked closely enough to formulate an opinion.
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  145. emxp Im gonna search for an article in english about it
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  177. edhelas the deadline to submit a talk to T-DOSE (in NL) is at the end of the month
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  183. SouL edhelas, I hope we can get recordings :)
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  193. edhelas the on_sub_and_presence config for PEP start to be a massive souce of stanza spam on login on my side
  194. edhelas I'm wondering if we could not put it by default and use MAM to handle that properly ?
  195. edhelas basically change that part in the XEP
  196. goffi edhelas: why you don't filter it (removing +notify) ?
  197. edhelas > A server MAY include messages of type 'headline', but this is not generally suggested. to > A server MUST include messages of type 'headline', but this is not generally suggested.
  198. edhelas goffi, because I still want to be notified when an item is pushed/changed
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  200. goffi right, I was thinking about explicit subscription, but it doesn't change anything about on_sub_and_presence
  201. goffi edhelas: were do you find "A server MAY include messages of type 'headline', but this is not generally suggested." ? do you have a link ?
  202. Holger goffi: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sect-idm139061241577408
  203. goffi oh in MAM, OK
  204. Holger Very XMPP-like. "It might work this way but maybe not, you never know!"
  205. edhelas by puting headlines in MAM we could simply forget "on_sub_and_presence" and set pubsub#send_last_published_item to "never"
  206. goffi edhelas: headline are not supposed to be stored offline, I would change it for MUST NOT
  207. Holger The question is whether that rule makes sense.
  208. goffi and pubsub notifications should not be headline IMHO
  209. Holger And if it does, maybe we want to find a different solution to do what edhelas suggests.
  210. Holger I think the basic idea makes a lot of sense.
  211. goffi at least not by default
  212. daniel Well this forces clients to do MAM
  213. Holger The obvious problem is that this won't work for clients that don't support MAM.
  214. Holger Yes.
  215. daniel And MAM is a lot harder than just parsing incoming notifications
  216. daniel This doesn't only effect legacy clients
  217. daniel And MAM is experimental
  218. edhelas well we can still put headlines in MAM and progressively deprecate that in Pubsub
  219. goffi again, headline should not be stored offline
  220. Holger daniel: Because you might not fetch all history since your last session from MAM?
  221. Holger I see the issues. But I totally agree that resending unmodified PEP nodes on each and every login is stupid and can become a scalability issue.
  222. daniel Holger: well I'm thinking about someone implementing a new client from scratch wanting to support avatars or omemo and they would also have to implement mam from the very beginning
  223. daniel It will just make it more complicated to write clients
  224. moparisthebest that's a different broader topic, but we need to start advancing XEPs
  225. edhelas daniel, We can have both, still have on_sub_and_presence and MAM. But knowing that the server handle the headlines, I'd just drop the incoming PEP stanzas and handle only the MAM ones.
  226. daniel moparisthebest: yes
  227. moparisthebest xeps everyone has to implement for 'modern' chat experiences currently range from experimental to deferred and everything in between
  228. moparisthebest even 'draft' doesn't sound that great, and, apparantly, nothing EVER gets moved to final :)
  229. Holger If we put stanzas in MAM we'll also put them in offline storage so testing single-client usage should work without depending on MAM. Multi-client UX is bad without MAM anyway.
  230. daniel And there was some backlash when I tried to add more features to pep from people who want to keep pep really simple.
  231. Holger But I see how we don't want to require clients to always retrieve *all* MAM history.
  232. daniel I imagine those people won't be happy when we depend pep on mam
  233. jonasw I don’t have a strong opinion on your other pep suggestions, but depending pep on mam sounds horrifying.
  234. jonasw but ... it kind of makes sense :/
  235. edhelas and MAM is part of the 2017 compliance suites
  236. mimi89999 What is it all about?
  237. edhelas well this is about finding links and coherence between the existing XEPs
  238. goffi I don't see the issue, 1) on_sub_and_presence is the default but can be disabled, 2) pubsub notification should be normal messages, not headline, so they will be in MAM 3) and again headline should not be stored offline
  239. jonasw edhelas, sure, but avatars are Core Client, MAM is Advanced Client
  240. Zash Weren't there something where you'd include a timestamp of your last notification and things would avoid sending notifications unless they have newer data
  241. goffi Zash: pubsub since ?
  242. goffi XEP-0312
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  244. daniel But in general; the amount of bootstrapping and the resulting traffic I have to do on a full connect is enormous
  245. goffi Nyco already talked about this in a summit, but no action has been taken.
  246. edhelas daniel, +1
  247. moparisthebest and you can tell even in conversations which tries to hide it (if you disconnect an account, then toggle it back on, the 'Connecting...' phase takes FOREVER)
  248. edhelas for my account, I have ~5/6MB to download from the server
  249. Holger goffi: type=normal will only go into MAM if it has a body, according to the rules.
  250. goffi Holger: oh I see, then this should be changed. But keeping headline is really bad idea IMO
  251. Holger goffi: And I think it's desirable to agree on a single way for syncing PEP items. If one client depends on on_sub_and_presence and another one disables it, that won't help UX.
  252. goffi Holger: the fact is that it can be disabled already now
  253. daniel goffi: about the amount of data on connect? That was the summit two years ago even
  254. goffi daniel: yes
  255. jonasw aaand we’re back to persistent/transient messages :)
  256. Holger goffi: I was not arguing it can't :-) I was wondering about what's desirable.
  257. daniel Yes. I would really like to have a recursive disco caps hash thing that also hashes items
  258. goffi Holger: I generaly like the fact that you can adapt to your special case, but the trick is as it is done now, we can't be sure that we have the desired bahaviour without checking node config
  259. jonasw daniel, just the list of disco items or whole pubsub items?
  260. daniel Or rewrite Conversations to hold state across restarts and just resume all the time
  261. daniel jonasw: disco items mainly
  262. jonasw just disco items isn’t difficult
  263. jonasw we could add this to XEP-0390
  264. daniel (and their caps hashes of course)
  265. jonasw daniel, I’m not sure how that helps though
  266. goffi I'm not sure it would help to hash items, it's working well with feature because it's a quite static data, but items can change a lot and often (think about MUC rooms)
  267. daniel So I don't have to refetch all items' features on every connection
  268. jonasw what kind of items?
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  270. daniel jonasw: when trying to figure out where the conference server or http upload server is
  271. Holger goffi: Our specs can be adapted to many use cases, but we're sometimes bad at specifying a single solution for a given use case, which results in bad interop. This would be another such case, IMO.
  272. jonasw daniel, ah, right
  273. jonasw daniel, do servers really have that many items that it matters?
  274. daniel jonasw: yes
  275. goffi Holger: I agree
  276. jonasw interesting, examples please?
  277. jonasw I wonder what’d be in there aside of a conference and an upload domain maybe
  278. daniel 3 or 4 at least. Http upload, conference, pubsub
  279. daniel Echo sometimes
  280. daniel Proxy65
  281. goffi gateways
  282. daniel Gateways on old and stupid servers 😊
  283. jonasw daniel, I wonder whether we could expand the disco#items response to include hashes if servers support it
  284. jonasw that is a reasonable extension, and perfectly backwards compatbile
  285. daniel jonasw: yes I should probably raise this on the list again
  286. jonasw I’m all in for adding this to XEP-0390 if nobody finds a notable issues with it.
  287. daniel Two step process. Include the hashes in the items response. And then do a hash over the items
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  289. daniel *the items hashes
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  291. daniel I have a few ideas regarding Syntax but I'm on my phone right now. Can type them out tomorrow or so for the list
  292. jonasw daniel, I was thinking <item ...><caps xmlns="..."><hash>...</hash>...</caps></item>
  293. edhelas so regarding my proposal ?
  294. daniel There were also concerns from server items regarding how the server should know the caps hash of the item
  295. daniel (I think I brought this up before)
  296. daniel *from server developers
  297. daniel Thank God mailman offers a convenient way to search the archive and Flows offer to setup discord way rejected
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  299. Holger Discourse even :-)
  300. goffi daniel: why "on old and stupid servers" ?
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  302. daniel goffi: because 2005 just called and wants their broken transports into networks nobody uses back
  303. edhelas https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0312.html , looks like MAM to me
  304. daniel A call our friends at matrix never received by the way
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  306. goffi daniel: there are gateways for IRC, mattermost, Skype, etc. I would not say nobody use those
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  308. edhelas gateways that are implementing 20% of the features, buggy, breaks after weeks/months
  309. edhelas maybe except for IRC
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  311. goffi thats for bad gateways
  312. edhelas because it's a quite stable protocol
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  315. goffi Is there any spec to resend message by a server when destinee server is offline? Something like SMTP which retry after a delay?
  316. Ge0rG goffi: one could use 0198 on s2s links
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  321. goffi GeOrG: that works for short outage in existing server, but I'm thinking more about first message to offline server.
  322. Ge0rG goffi: it might be a better UX to reject the message immediately. How are you supposed to know if that server exists at all?
  323. goffi you're not, but would be nice to try for a little while like email.
  324. Zash Some servers do
  325. jonasw goffi, I think trying for a while isn’t a good idea for IM
  326. jonasw (for certain definitions of "while")
  327. jonasw a few minutes may be ok
  328. Zash That's great when it's spam they are trying to send, and you end up with one billion connection attempts
  329. goffi Zash: same for email, and it works quite OK
  330. Zash Email isn't Instant Messaging
  331. Ge0rG But Jabber is the Email of IM!
  332. Holger goffi: I'm about to implement just that. I think it's horrible that we don't survive remote server reboots.
  333. Holger goffi: But I don't think we need any spec for that.
  334. Ge0rG isn't "survive" very relative?
  335. Ge0rG I think it would be a better UX, in a federated IM network, to have a "send again" button on failed messages.
  336. Zash Fail early, fail often!
  337. Holger Users love errors.
  338. Ge0rG Holger: yeah, silent failure is much better.
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  340. Holger Did I suggest that?
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  342. Holger Of course you return an error if retrying fails for n minutes.
  343. Ge0rG I think that having N>1 wouldn't be wise.
  344. Holger Ge0rG: IIRC I can submit a message from Yaxim while I'm offline? Why don't you return an error?
  345. fippo goffi: servers would have a hard time keeping track of order requirements. so this is probably a responsibility of clients.
  346. Holger Ge0rG: Why not? Because INSTANT?
  347. Holger Ge0rG: Why do we accept pending 0198 sessions for N minutes where N>1 then?
  348. Ge0rG Holger: because instant, yes.
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  350. Ge0rG Holger: yaxim has a clear UI indication for offline messages.
  351. moparisthebest just make sure you have appropriate backoff set up, otherwise a server gets DOS'd, then good servers trying to reconnect and send messages end up DDOS'ing it
  352. Ge0rG Holger: do you have the same on s2s?
  353. goffi Holger: the issue is as a client I want to know if I can rely on this behaviour or not
  354. Holger Ge0rG: No. Just like I don't for the last hop from the recipient's server to the recipient's client.
  355. Holger goffi: You should rely on the message either being delivered or an error being bounced, IMO.
  356. goffi fippo: order would be hard to keep indeed
  357. Ge0rG Holger: but that server at least knows if the client exists.
  358. goffi Ge0rG: XMPP is not only about instant messaging
  359. jonasw Ge0rG, Holger, you could return a type="continue" error while retrying :)
  360. Holger Ge0rG: So we must return an error immediately because you can't wait 5 minutes for the error if you sent a message to a non-existent contact? Seriously?
  361. Ge0rG jonasw: a what?
  362. jonasw Ge0rG, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120#section-8.3.2
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  364. Ge0rG Oh god. I wonder if there are any clients implementing that.
  365. Holger Might be a good idea.
  366. jonasw Holger, write a XEP which specifies that behaviour for any intermediary and also adds an element which indicates until when delivery will be re-tried
  367. Zash Something like the "We're still trying to deliver your email" notifications?
  368. jonasw Zash, yupp, but with more easily available semantics
  369. Holger Please hold the line!
  370. Zash Is there anything saying how many type=error replies you can get?
  371. jonasw not that I recall
  372. Zash Except for <iq>
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  374. Ge0rG jonasw: what kind of stanza do you send to revert a type="continue" condition?
  375. jonasw Ge0rG, any other?
  376. Ge0rG jonasw: any other what?
  377. Ge0rG any other error?
  378. jonasw I see
  379. jonasw hrm
  380. jonasw things are getting interesting again
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  383. jonasw Ge0rG, maybe an opt-in is better for this type of stuff
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  385. jonasw in which case another type="continue" "error" (meh) could be sent which indicates that the delivery has continued to the next hop
  386. Ge0rG we need a new error type "continued"
  387. jonasw that requires a change to RFC 6120 ;-)
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  389. Ge0rG isn't this about EXTENSIBLE?
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  391. moparisthebest also as an email client you have no idea if your email is delivered ever, or whether you will get a delivery failure notification or not either
  392. Holger I think just retrying a few times instead of giving up immediately will make everyone else happy :-P
  393. moparisthebest so it's a pretty bad comparison
  394. Holger moparisthebest: You'll get a bounce a few days later.
  395. moparisthebest you *might*
  396. goffi it's not because email doen't do it that we can't
  397. goffi we have discovery for that
  398. moparisthebest also we know (I think) we are only going through 2 hops max, client1 -> server1 -> server2 -> client2
  399. moparisthebest email can travel through unlimited server hops, each of which can have their own policy where they just scrap your email and notify you or not
  400. moparisthebest the original argument was 'email retries so we should retry too' but that's not actually the case is my only point, in reality maybe your email server retries, but you can't count on anything
  401. Holger Dunno whether I said that, but my main point is "users want retries to happen automagically rather than having to cope with temporary issues themselves".
  402. goffi moparisthebest: no, the original question was "Is there any spec to resend message by a server when destinee server is offline?", and SMTP was just given as an example
  403. goffi and if a server implement that, I would be able to know it with disco, so I can display it properly in UI
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  405. moparisthebest fair enough, I think I agree with Holger though, that there really doesn't need to be a spec, the server should optionally retry once or twice over a short time, and send back an error if unsuccesful
  406. goffi I was hoping for something on a long time (e.g. personal server offline for the week-end because of maintenance), on a short time a spec is probably not needed indeed.
  407. moparisthebest so I send a message to someone@conversation.im and don't get an error message for a week because I missed the ending s ?
  408. goffi moparisthebest: no, I think more about "your message has not been delivered, we'll try to continue sending it for 2 days before giving up"
  409. moparisthebest I still think a user tends to wait instead of double checking their spelling though
  410. Ge0rG Holger: how many attempts do you want to make? and what exactly are you going to attempt?
  411. Ge0rG Holger: I think it is valid for a server to cache a stanza and attempt all the SRVs, direct DNS entries, IPs etc before giving up, but no more than that.
  412. moparisthebest what if the DNS server is being rebooted ? :)
  413. Ge0rG I really think that it's better to expose an error in the first <60s and to allow the user to resend with one click.
  414. moparisthebest also you really aren't supposed to do that with SRV or DNS records
  415. moparisthebest yea I agree
  416. moparisthebest I mean, give or take a few seconds
  417. Holger Ge0rG: Well I would make this configurable, but my initial idea would be to retry for 5 minutes by default, as that's a typical 0198 timeout which seems to work for most people.
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  420. goffi we were talking about using MAM for notification before, delivery would be important there: if a notification is sent while destinee server is offline, it will not get it, and the pubsub item may be missed. This would not be the case with a pure PEP notification.
  421. Holger Good point.
  422. Holger Maybe 0312 is not a bad solution for edhelas' issue.
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  485. Arc board meeting in 3 minutes
  486. Arc ralphm: nyco: Martin: MattJ: here?
  487. MattJ Here
  488. Martin Here
  489. Arc So, the classic Bside board this week
  490. Zash 3/?
  491. nyco here
  492. Arc 3/5 but mattj, martin, and myself are a classic combo
  493. nyco go
  494. Arc ah nyco ruins it
  495. nyco sorrry
  496. efrit has joined
  497. nyco I can go
  498. Arc who's chairing this week?
  499. Arc nyco: its a joke
  500. nyco I am joking too
  501. nyco sorry for the misunderanding ;-)
  502. Arc humor subroutines confirmed
  503. nyco hehehe
  504. Arc so who's chairing this week?
  505. waqas has joined
  506. Ge0rG has joined
  507. Steve Kille has left
  508. Martin I can chair, if just to break the silence...
  509. nyco thx
  510. Martin Ok, *bangs gavel in traditional fashion*
  511. Martin 1) Roll call
  512. Arc here
  513. nyco o/
  514. MattJ Here
  515. Martin Splendid
  516. Martin 2) Minutes, volunteers?
  517. stefandxm has joined
  518. dwd o/
  519. Martin Lovely
  520. Martin 3) Topics for decisions
  521. Martin Running from Trello here: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  522. nyco SCAM: blog post on hold POSS booth meetup in Krakow
  523. Martin 3.1) SCAM. Where did we end up with this?
  524. nyco if my agenda is related to the board
  525. Martin The agenda comes from Trello. If it's not on Trello, it doesn't get in.
  526. goffi has left
  527. Guus https://trello.com/c/0Flwsyqs/278-scam
  528. Ge0rG has left
  529. Guus I've left a lot of questions for the board
  530. goffi has left
  531. Martin OK, lets try and rattle through them then
  532. Martin 3.1.1) Can SCAM have a budget for things like stickers and folders?
  533. Arc I thought we already approved that
  534. Guus nope - board approved a one-time reimbursement.
  535. Arc what kind of budget were you thinking?
  536. nyco sure, how much budget?
  537. lumi has joined
  538. Arc Guus: ?
  539. nyco that is below 1k
  540. Ge0rG maybe it would be useful to define per-purchase and per-month caps, and to require individual board approval for higher budgets?
  541. Guus 500~1000 USD / year
  542. Guus sorry, I'm in a building that's being closed down, after which I've got a 2h commute - might be unresponsive.
  543. jubalh has joined
  544. nyco yeah, that corresponds to our capacity, roughly
  545. nyco I'll have to go at :30
  546. MattJ That seems reasonable to me, though I realise that I don't have any idea how the XSF currently stands financially
  547. Arc we're doing good
  548. Martin ^ What MattJ said
  549. edhelas has left
  550. dwd Roughly $10k balance, as I recall.
  551. Arc I'm good with $1k/year
  552. MattJ +1
  553. daniel has left
  554. Guus has left
  555. Martin Ditto, +1
  556. daniel has joined
  557. Martin nyco?
  558. nyco we vote on what?
  559. Martin $1k/year for SCAM
  560. nyco +1
  561. Martin Good, moving on
  562. Martin 3.1.2)Can SCAM get access to the social media account(s) (for event announcement purposes). Notably: Twitter. The blog is accessible enough via PRs on the website project.
  563. ralphm has left
  564. MattJ How is Twitter currently handled? Who else has access to it?
  565. stefandxm is there a meeting going on?
  566. dwd stefandxm, Yes, XSF Board.
  567. stefandxm ty, then i will back off :)
  568. nyco we could use tools such as HootSuite or Buffer, so that everyone has its own account/password
  569. edhelas has left
  570. Guus (back, now from a parking lot with crappy reception)
  571. nyco so that the SM accounts passwds are not shared
  572. Arc or write a twitter-xmpp bot that does the same :-P
  573. Arc that was a joke
  574. Guus I'm less interested in the how, as in the approval itself.
  575. ralphm has joined
  576. Martin So, we need to find out who has access, and hook them up with Guus, agreed?
  577. nyco is it a board duty to approve that?
  578. Ge0rG Arc: that bot would then post a dozen of russian spam messages a day, just to make a point.
  579. dwd nyco, In as much as it has not been devolved elsewhere.
  580. Guus I'd be happy to find the person(s) with access myself, btw.
  581. nyco SCAM should be responsible for SM accounts
  582. Zash Wasn't there a social media team or such before?
  583. Guus nyco: unsure, but topic for another meeting. SCAM is not commteam.
  584. Guus (yet?)
  585. Ge0rG has left
  586. nyco ah good point
  587. jonasw given the time is nearly up, are we still discussing technical details or is this on-topic?
  588. nyco I guess commTeam could merge in SCAM
  589. jonasw cause I’d like to have my trademark application discussed
  590. nyco for what it does...
  591. Guus nyco. please, first the questions at hand
  592. Guus I've been waiting for weeks on feedback
  593. Guus given the time limitation: your votes please?
  594. Ge0rG can't you just approve that SCAM team shall get access to SM?
  595. Martin OK, so, we're happy for SCAM to have access to SM?
  596. Martin +1 for me
  597. Steve Kille has joined
  598. nyco +1 of course, I add the SCAM should be responsible for those accounts
  599. Martin Arc, MattJ, votes?
  600. MattJ +1
  601. Guus Martin, in the interest of time: could you quickly do the member confirmation, for the record?
  602. Martin Sure
  603. Guus should be a formality
  604. Guus tx
  605. Martin 3.1.3) Does board approve Daniel Gultsch as a member of SCAM?
  606. Martin +1
  607. nyco +1
  608. Arc +1
  609. Martin MattJ?
  610. Martin OK, approved. Next:
  611. Martin 3.1.4) Does board approve Nicolas Vérité as a member of the SCAM?
  612. Martin +1
  613. nyco +1 ;-)
  614. MattJ +1
  615. nyco it hurts, voting for myself
  616. Martin Arc?
  617. tux has left
  618. Arc +1
  619. Martin OK, approved. NExt:
  620. Martin 3.1.5) Does board approve Guus der Kinderen as the team leader of SCAM?
  621. Martin +1
  622. nyco https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summits_Conferences_And_Meetups_team
  623. Arc +1
  624. nyco +1
  625. Martin MattJ?
  626. MattJ +1
  627. Martin OK, approved. Next:
  628. Martin 3.1.6) Setting up MUC and mailinglist for SCAM
  629. Martin +1
  630. Arc +1
  631. nyco is it needed?
  632. nyco we should create stuff when it is needed, because that's one more thing to manage and maintain
  633. Guus I've suggested to take over the summit-ones
  634. edhelas doing it here would we enough no ?
  635. Guus but could create new ones if desired
  636. Guus I don't have a strong preference either way.
  637. Guus nyco: I'd prefer the team to be addressable by people seeking assistence.
  638. Arc ive gtg
  639. nyco I see
  640. nyco +1
  641. Arc +1
  642. Martin OK, approved, next:
  643. Martin 3.2) Apply for trademark sublicense for JabberCat
  644. Arc has left
  645. Martin Relevant GitHub PR here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/358
  646. nyco +1
  647. Martin +1 from me
  648. MattJ I think a mailing list is ok (because we don't have one suitable already), but probably this MUC would suffice (and has more people active in it)
  649. Guus (Thank you for pushing all my questions through. The SCAM trello card can be archived now)
  650. Martin Sorry it took so long Guus, glad we got there in the end.
  651. nyco gotta go as well
  652. Martin MattJ: Do you have an opinion on the trademark license? Just needs your +1 to get it done.
  653. jubalh has left
  654. MattJ +1
  655. dwd As a point of order, it looks like the Board may not be quorate anymore. Although I cannot recall its quorum rules. (Also, if ralphm is actually about that'd solve the issue).
  656. Guus (nyco voted on the last item, but is now gone)
  657. Martin Nyco did his +1 before disappeareing
  658. Martin And we're not quorate any more, so I guess we should disband
  659. nyco sorry, bye! ;-)
  660. dwd Yes, indeed. Just noting this might curtail the meeting.
  661. nyco thx all!
  662. Ge0rG has left
  663. Ge0rG I'm okay with postponing my questions to next week.
  664. Guus sorry Ge0rG - mine are now out of the way though.
  665. Ge0rG This was a very intense and productive board meeting, so thanks to everybody
  666. Martin Ge0rG: If you send them to the members list, I can put them in Trello so they're ready, or are they in there somewhere already?
  667. Ge0rG Martin: all in trello already
  668. Martin Skipping 4) and 5) due to no people. And 6). 7) +1W
  669. Martin Done. Phew.
  670. Ge0rG SPAM and trademark fees
  671. Guus Martin: regular folk like us can add comments to cards, but not create cards. So, if board creates cards, others can fill in the blanks (not sure if everyone knows that). Could be helpful.
  672. Martin Ge0rG: Righto, yup, they're in there.
  673. Martin Guus: Good call, dwd, can you mention that at the end of the minutes?
  674. Guus there might be some cards that can now be removed, by the way. I've left housekeeping comments.
  675. dwd Ge0rG, FWIW, I'd be rather against a SPAM team/SIG. I think it can be, and should be, conducted in an existing venue (operators?)
  676. Guus ok, I'm going to drive home now. Thanks again for pressing things through.
  677. Guus has left
  678. moparisthebest just generally curious, is there anything stopping cisco from just changing their mind and revoking the license to use jabber to the xsf and any sublicensees ?
  679. efrit has left
  680. Guus has left
  681. efrit has joined
  682. Martin has left
  683. stefandxm i've a generic xml/xmpp question. about xml:lang; how is it suggested to use in iq stanzas. should the receiver respond with the same xml:lang or should if you make a "requested language" attribute have it explicitly added?
  684. Guus has joined
  685. SamWhited xml:lang is inherited, so you should just use whatever xml:lang they specified (probably on the stream, but maybe in the individual payload)
  686. Guus has left
  687. Guus has joined
  688. stefandxm yes, but what about the response
  689. stefandxm ie; "i want information about xyz and i want the information in language nnn"
  690. stefandxm should that be implicitly understood by the language used in the request or should it be added in the payload as a specific attribute/request ?
  691. SamWhited It should be added in the payload or on the IQ itself if the one they sent doesn't match the stream.
  692. SamWhited XMPP is a bit odd in that there are two streams going on, one for input and one for output. xml:lang won't be shared between the two
  693. stefandxm exactly
  694. stefandxm so should i add a "requested-lang" to the payload in the iq 'get'
  695. Valerian has joined
  696. stefandxm or should i make it implicitly / recommended that the responder uses the same lang as the request is marked
  697. SamWhited So the flow is that you decode the IQ they sent you, check the xml:lang (which is probably inherited from the input stream, but might also be set on the IQ or payload itself), then check your output encoders xml:lang (probably set on the initial stream) and if it doesn't match set xml:lang on the IQ or payload before you send it
  698. SamWhited No, the "requested lang" *is* the input's xml:lang value
  699. SamWhited yes, the second one
  700. stefandxm great
  701. stefandxm makes it easier for me :)
  702. SamWhited (someone who actually knows XML should double check me on that, but I'm pretty sure everything in the http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace namespace gets inherited)
  703. Ge0rG has left
  704. ralphm has left
  705. jonasw SamWhited, not sure about the namespace, but xml:lang for sure gets inherited
  706. Ge0rG dwd: I don't care much where SPAM is handled, but there might be value in making it invite only
  707. moparisthebest the non-response is kind of what worries me, almost as if no one here knows anything about the jabber licensing scheme ... :)
  708. moparisthebest the point of xmpp for me is not to rely on the ongoing goodwill of some huge company, if we are indeed relying on the ongoing goodwill of cisco to use jabber, well, then I should just go back to google, hangouts?, or whatever it's called nowadays
  709. Zash has left
  710. SamWhited moparisthebest: I don't know anything about the jabber licensing scheme, but the question also didn't make sense to me. A license *is* the thing that stops Cisco from changing their mind, no? Isn't the whole point of having a license or an agreement or whatever so that it's not just their word?
  711. SamWhited Also, it has nothing to do with using XMPP as that last thing suggests; it's just the term "Jabber".
  712. moparisthebest SamWhited, the only document I ever saw was a vague promise with a big NOT A LEGAL OR BINDING DOCUMENT prefix, from jabber inc to xsf before cisco bought them
  713. moparisthebest this is what I'm asking about, *is* there a license, and what does it look like, what are the terms
  714. jonasw moparisthebest, maybe you should try to get a hold of stpeter
  715. jonasw I think he’s most likely to have details and possibly even the related paperwork
  716. moparisthebest the license might say "cisco reserves the right to terminate this license at it's whim" for instance
  717. moparisthebest and that's fine, but if only stpeter has it, that's a problem too
  718. jonasw we just need to get large enough that Cisco wouldn’t dare to because we can generate enough negative press for them by whining publicly about it :>
  719. moparisthebest then if stpeter gets hit by a bus and cisco decides to revoke it (or sue everyone), then what? :P
  720. jonasw the bus factor thing has been discussed in one of last months board meetings btw
  721. moparisthebest SamWhited, true except there has been a push recently to standardize client language etc on the term 'jabber'
  722. SamWhited moparisthebest: https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf, https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_License_Agreement.pdf, https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Letter_Of_Intent.pdf
  723. Zash has left
  724. jonasw SamWhited, nice find
  725. SamWhited See also: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/background
  726. moparisthebest ah yea all I saw before was the letter of intent
  727. SamWhited which was the first result in a Google search for "Jabber license agreement" or something to that effect.
  728. Ge0rG has left
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  731. jonasw anyone have a URL to the "Jabber Trademark Position Statement"?
  732. jonasw ah, it’s attached to the letter of intetn
  733. Yagiza has left
  734. edhelas does a pubsub node should return <feature var='http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#publish'/> if the JID is not authorized to publish an item in that node (applies for all the other stuff in the disco#info) ?
  735. moparisthebest jonasw, SamWhited do I read that wrong? https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf is expired because it's only good for 12 months from 2003 and if it terminates in any other way than transferring trademark to JSF, trademark goes back to JINC ?
  736. moparisthebest I am not a lawyer and hate legal things grr
  737. jonasw moparisthebest, that document is only about enforcement of the trademark things I think
  738. Zash has left
  739. moparisthebest so we probably just care about https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_License_Agreement.pdf now, I guess
  740. Ge0rG has left
  741. moparisthebest a couple questions about that, does it change anything legally that neither Jabber Inc nor JSF are a thing anymore (former purchased by cisco, latter now XSF) ?
  742. jonasw no, it doesn’t
  743. jonasw with the purchase Jabber Inc merged into Cisco, which is why everybody is talking about Cisco instead of JINC now
  744. jonasw the XSF is simply a renamer of JSF afaict, so legally the XSF has fully inherited whatever the JSF did
  745. jonasw IANAL though
  746. moparisthebest What does point 5. mean? "No Right to Assign or Sublicense" ?
  747. jonasw I don’t know.
  748. ralphm has joined
  749. jonasw I wonder whether there’s a follow-up document to that enforcement thing
  750. moparisthebest and lastly after we answer that about #5
  751. moparisthebest cisco can terminate this within 30 days if xsf doesn't enforce something
  752. moparisthebest what are the chances of the xsf being able to enforce anything ever, let alone within 30 days?
  753. moparisthebest there is no lawyer on staff for sure, right?
  754. jonasw moparisthebest, take action and enforcing are two different things
  755. jonasw but yeah
  756. jonasw good job, gandi. searching for jabbercat.org domain name, it suggests gibberish.cat >.>
  757. daniel has left
  758. SouL Are you going to use jabbercat.org, jonasw?
  759. daniel has joined
  760. jonasw SouL, I plan to
  761. Ge0rG has left
  762. moparisthebest sounds like you should use jabber.cat instead jonasw :)
  763. jonasw moparisthebest, gone
  764. jonasw and cat has terms I don’t want to have to adhere to
  765. moparisthebest sounds like the XSF needs to get to enforcing
  766. moparisthebest oh really like what?
  767. jonasw domain names are fair use something
  768. jonasw moparisthebest, with .cat, you need to support the catalan culture/language in some way
  769. jonasw people apparently simply put a google-translate-ed version of their page up
  770. moparisthebest ah ok, well, you'd support instant messaging in catalan right? :)
  771. tux has joined
  772. moparisthebest jonasw, are domain names fair use? because https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/usage-guidelines.html 1.3 has a whole section about when they are not allowed
  773. lskdjf has left
  774. lskdjf has left
  775. jonasw yeah, it describes what falls under "fair use" and what doesn’t ;)
  776. SouL jonasw, as I said, if you want to use .cat I can really help with that! And they don't really care, so...
  777. jonasw jabber.cat is also a jabber service apparently: https://jabber.cat/
  778. jonasw so I don’t want to fight them :)
  779. moparisthebest jonasw, did you notice the first word haha, funny
  780. moparisthebest Això
  781. jonasw hm?
  782. moparisthebest isn't that your library name-ish?
  783. lskdjf has joined
  784. lskdjf has left
  785. SouL Això means "this" :)
  786. jonasw hm, not really (aioxmpp vs Això)
  787. SouL well, "that"
  788. moparisthebest close
  789. lskdjf has joined
  790. lskdjf has left
  791. moparisthebest shift it around a little aixòmpp and now you can register a .cat, no one will even notice
  792. jonasw vanitasvitae, firefox refuses to connect to geekplace.eu (you linked that in your protoxep thread on standards@) with HTTPS due to SEC_ERROR_CERT_SIGNATURE_ALGORITHM_DISABLED
  793. vanitasvitae Hm, thats Flows site.
  794. moparisthebest my firefox is fine
  795. SouL I wanted to get xmpp.cat but it was taken already
  796. jonasw maybe those are my facist cipher settings ... I think I disabled RC4 or something
  797. moparisthebest see what ssllabs says shortly, it's scanning
  798. peter has joined
  799. moparisthebest ah it's using CAcert
  800. jonasw ah, maybe it’s the 1024 RSA thing then?
  801. jonasw ah, maybe it’s the 1024-bit RSA or the MD5 signature thing then?
  802. moparisthebest tell flow 2015 called and wants him to use letsencrypt
  803. moparisthebest no CAcert isn't a trusted CA
  804. jonasw I imported it once
  805. Zash Everyone must use Let's Encrypt!
  806. jonasw since I used it myself extensively
  807. jonasw Zash, *Everyone MUST use Let's Encrypt!
  808. moparisthebest jonasw, probably Signature algorithm SHA512withRSA
  809. moparisthebest that's, not exactly standard
  810. moparisthebest https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=geekplace.eu
  811. lskdjf has joined
  812. jonasw meh, that link re-analyzes
  813. moparisthebest oh I didn't think it did, that's annoying
  814. lskdjf has left
  815. moparisthebest your problem from your error message is you disabled SHA512withRSA as a cert algorithm, or, if you don't have CACert as trusted, it's root cert is signed with MD5withRSA
  816. jonasw whatever it is
  817. moparisthebest I hate to say it, but the site works with http too...
  818. la|r|ma has left
  819. la|r|ma has joined
  820. peter jonasw: To answer your question from the editor@ room, there is no successor to the trademark license enforcement agreement of May 2003. That's when we were transitioning from JSF/Jabber to XSF/XMPP (read the list archives, someone called me Hitler!), and interest in registering anything with the word JABBER™ in it had already waned. It's fascinating to me that this issue is still alive 14 years later. :-)
  821. Ge0rG has left
  822. lskdjf has left
  823. moparisthebest peter, also from https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_License_Agreement.pdf what does point 5. mean "No Right to Assign or Sublicense" ?
  824. Valerian has left
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  828. moparisthebest I'm not a lawyer which is why I'd universally prefer something not trademarked like 'xmpp' than something I have to ask questions about like 'jabber' :(
  829. jonasw peter, I’m confused then. on what basis does the XSF operate according to the Exhibit A of the Letter of Intent, the text which has now become the usage guidelines on the website?
  830. peter moparisthebest: that means the XSF can't assign its right to sublicense the mark to another organization.
  831. moparisthebest that makes sense I guess
  832. peter jonasw: what's the URL for the letter of intent?
  833. moparisthebest and hopefully it wasn't an 'assignment' to go JSF -> XSF ? :)
  834. jabberatdemo has joined
  835. jonasw peter, https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Letter_Of_Intent.pdf
  836. peter moparisthebest: no, that wasn't assignment, just a legal name change for the organization
  837. jonasw (that text I am talking about (Exhibit A there) is the Jabber Trademark Position Statement, which I couldn’t find elsewhere; it is referenced as basis in the Enforcement Agreement)
  838. jonasw also, wtf, that mailing list thread from back then
  839. peter jonasw: I'm confused by your confusion. :-) Could you explain your concern a bit more?
  840. jonasw peter, I’m still trying to find the legal documents which give the XSF the permission to sublicense Jabber, as we were wondering if and under which circumstances Cisco could terminate our (the XSF’) right to sublicense
  841. peter OK.
  842. jonasw I can’t read that from the License Agreement, because the terms the XSF seems to be operating on (the part of the Exhibit A / Jabber Trademark Position Statement / Usage Guidelines on the website) is not referenced there
  843. jonasw but IANAL, you have been there back then and may know more
  844. Steve Kille has left
  845. jonasw also, to lighten things up (quoting from that mail thread): > He is an extremely patient and tireless driving force > who deserves a great deal of recognition. Shame on you for your lack of > support. That is my perception, and I’ll use this opportunity to say Thanks for that.
  846. peter Aw, thanks. :-)
  847. peter jonasw: BTW are you a native speaker of English? If not (and even if you are!), these legal documents can be difficult to understand.
  848. moparisthebest I'm a native english speaker and still have problems groking lawyer-speak :)
  849. jonasw peter, no I’m not :(
  850. emxp has joined
  851. jonasw (the issue with legalese in any language is of course that you often don’t know you didn’t understand it :()
  852. jonasw still I’d expect some document which defines the guidelines under which the XSF can sublicense (but I may be wrong), but there doesn’t seem to be one if the Enforcement Agreement didn’t have a successor and expired (like I read it) after 12 months.
  853. Wiktor has joined
  854. moparisthebest the enforcement agreement he is talking about is https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf
  855. jonasw thanks, moparisthebest
  856. moparisthebest and I also read that it expired after 12 months
  857. peter So, a letter of intent is just that - a statement of principles and intention to work together toward something (in this case, an actual agreement regarding the trademark). At that time, there was quite a bit of controversy in the community about Jabber Inc., a drive to change the name to XMPP, and so on. The letter of intent was communicated to the community in late 2002, and as a result we developed the actual license agreement in March of 2003, and following that the enforcement agreement in May of 2003, see http://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf
  858. peter Ah, yes.
  859. moparisthebest but that expired in may of 2004 right?
  860. peter There was supposed to be a 12-month "trial period" and then a discussion about potentially transferring the trademark to the XSF. Everyone got busy with standardization of XMPP at the IETF and with business as usual at Jabber Inc. I seem to recall that we addressed this a bit later on. Let me go AFK for a few minutes and look in the physical files, which are in my home office here. brb
  861. Guus has left
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  863. jonasw thank you for your effort, peter :)
  864. moparisthebest man he really is the best, no one else would get up from a desk and thumb through files :)
  865. jabberatdemo has left
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  867. lumi has joined
  868. peter haha
  869. peter OK, so I don't see it in my physical files. I'll need to check the email history.
  870. Lance has joined
  871. peter My personal email history does not reveal anything, either. I do have a recollection that we addressed this 12-month topic at one point, but it was a long time ago. I might need to look at the archives of the board@ list.
  872. Valerian has joined
  873. peter Oh, but we decided not to have archives for the board@ list. :(
  874. jonasw sure? the mailman claims it is members only
  875. Guus Don't we have any at all, or perhaps no public ones?
  876. jonasw you don’t find them at /pipermail/board, but at /mailman/private/board
  877. Zash has left
  878. jonasw here: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/private/board
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  882. peter I have admin privs on all the lists and I just checked.
  883. jonasw ugh
  884. Guus To bad
  885. peter The Board Archives Currently, there are no archives.
  886. jonasw so for all we know the XSF currently does not have any authority over the Jabber™ whatsoever?
  887. Zash has joined
  888. peter I can ssh to the machine and poke around.
  889. peter jonasw: the XSF has authority, just not completely *documented* authority.
  890. jonasw okay :)
  891. peter I've been in communication about various trademark issues with JINC legal counsel and Cisco legal departments before JINC was acquired, after JINC was acquired, and after I left Cisco. There has never been any question that the XSF has continued authority to sublicense use of the JABBER mark.
  892. peter And I made sure that this was specifically re-affirmed when Jabber Inc. was acquired by Cisco in 2008.
  893. peter We just don't have a good paper trail on things after 2003.
  894. Guus Alex perhaps?
  895. moparisthebest peter, just recently there has been a bit of a push to revive 'jabber', and I'm more concerned if you get hit by a bus and cisco turns evil, they could probably just pull it?
  896. moparisthebest at least if there is no paperwork
  897. peter I can ask my contacts at Cisco legal if they have any additional paperwork.
  898. moparisthebest even now I'd guess recollections wouldn't hold up in court
  899. peter Guus: I've always been the keeper of the paperwork.
  900. Guus K
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  902. peter I'd be more worried about the bus factor than "just pulling it".
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  905. peter After all, Cisco's (and before that Jabber Inc.'s) actual *behavior* since 2003 shows a continuous recognition that the JSF/XSF has the right to sublicense use of the mark.
  906. peter However, it would be a good thing for me to reach out to my contacts in Cisco legal because (a) people come and go (b) the new people don't necessarily know (c) maybe they have copies of something I don't have.
  907. moparisthebest that's true I think they do heavily consider past, uh, actions/behavior
  908. Ge0rG I'm slightly worried that Cisco legal will contact "the XSF" with a 30 day deadline to handle some specific case of trademark misuse, and that letter won't arrive in time (or board won't meet in time) and we will lose our sub-license.
  909. stefandxm has joined
  910. peter Ge0rG: Thanks for your concern. When I reach out to Cisco legal, I will mention the desirability of having a backup person to contact in case I get hit by a bus.
  911. Guus (also, we'd be bummed for other than trademark reasons, Peter)
  912. moparisthebest thanks for clarifying Guus :)
  913. Guus trying to spread the love ;)
  914. peter Guus: :-)
  915. Guus peter, if you have time for another, although more trivial, issue: according to Raja, you and someone else were involved with creating the xmpp logo.
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  917. Guus I've asked him about that weird orange bit that continues to bug me. He is going to check his original designs, but was confident that it wasn't him that designed it like that. But, from what I gather, the design was a team effort of sorts
  918. Guus context: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/363
  919. Guus so, as a potential co-designer of that logo: what's your take on it?
  920. ralphm has joined
  921. peter I have a graphics idiot and would not have been involved with that level of design. :-)
  922. peter s/have/am/
  923. peter Guus: you contacted Raja Sandhu about it?
  924. peter I don't recall anyone else being involved.
  925. Guus yup
  926. peter He's a nice guy, say hi for me. :-)
  927. Guus he mentioned you and someone else that he couldn't name.
  928. peter huh
  929. peter I never weigh in on graphics stuff because I know nothing.
  930. peter It was probably Matt Tucker.
  931. peter I think Matt introduced us to Raja.
  932. Guus fair enough. It's a long time ago
  933. Guus ah, I wondered about that. I saw Jive's logo in his portfolio :)
  934. peter Matt was CTO of Jive Software back in the day.
  935. peter He's started something new recently, I should check in with him.
  936. dwd peter, Igniterealtime FOundation, for one thing. :-)
  937. Guus Matt and me talk on occasion - he joined the Ignite Realtime Foundation board
  938. peter nods
  939. Guus but he started a new business too
  940. peter not igniterealtime, something more recent
  941. peter yeah
  942. Guus Koan, iirc
  943. peter https://koan.co
  944. Guus that's it
  945. jonasw peter, thanks for all the clarifications :)
  946. peter So says LinkedIn, anyway. ;-)
  947. peter jonasw: sure thing!
  948. peter I have a phone call here in a few minutes, bbiab.
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  958. Ge0rG peter: my concern wasn't even the bus factor but just potential practical issues with a process that's not exercised but has grave consequences when it fails....
  959. Guus who's controlling our website? As in: do we have a work team?
  960. jonasw Guus, thanks for adding that commit, I totally forgot
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  962. Guus no worries. My grand plan is to give you access to modify the website yourself.
  963. Guus we could use some additional merge-button-pushers
  964. Guus and you're effectively doing most of it anyway :)
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  966. jonasw don’t count on it now that I’m editor
  967. Guus meh, it's just about you having the ability to press 'merge'
  968. jonasw yeah, hitting merge is responsibility ;-)
  969. Guus so that someone active, other than me, can apply changes if I fall of the edge of the world for a bit.
  970. Guus jonasw: no more than providing the PR itself :)
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  973. Ge0rG People could inject evil things into their PRs, like matrix propaganda. We need to watch out!
  974. Ge0rG 😀
  975. jonasw The Matrix was a great movie
  976. jonasw so nothing wrong with that
  977. moparisthebest what about the sequals though
  978. jonasw which sequels?
  979. moparisthebest good answer
  980. Guus but, my original question: who gets to say who gets access?
  981. jonasw holds baseball bat threateningly
  982. jonasw Guus, interesting question :)
  983. jonasw is website a subset of social media? ;-)
  984. Guus has left
  985. moparisthebest gajim has decided to color Guus and Ge0rG the same and between that and the G I can no longer tell the difference :'(
  986. Zash Guu0rG
  987. moparisthebest didn't you guys have a proposal for fancy coloring?
  988. moparisthebest or, consistant coloring
  989. jonasw moparisthebest, yeh
  990. jonasw I have a pre-proto-xep in my xeps dir
  991. jonasw I should add some finishing touches for ProtoXEPing it
  992. moparisthebest yes please
  993. Ge0rG It turned out to require fancy floating point math
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  995. jonasw not *that* fancy
  996. Ge0rG Like my last proposal for MUC limiting.
  997. jonasw muc limiting does FPM anyways
  998. jonasw (as does anything in lua)
  999. Ge0rG In LUA
  1000. moparisthebest for a super optional client-side coloring xep I think a floating point requirement is acceptable
  1001. Guus do we still have a technical review team?
  1002. Guus it's purpose apparently is to find out how we can help stPeter more. :)
  1003. Ge0rG Least Usable Algorithms.
  1004. Guus https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Review_team (I recognize but a few of the member names - possibly due to out-of-date content after the crash recovery)
  1005. Ge0rG This page was last modified on 26 August 2011
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  1009. Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/365
  1010. Guus I was going to add just SCAM, but I tried to make it consistent by adding all teams.
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  1014. dwd As noted against the PR, I think two of those teams are dead (and one is not a team, but a SIG, but lives yet).
  1015. dwd The two are Comms, Review, and UPnP. Let's start again. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Our three defunct teams are...
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  1017. Guus You lost me. 😁
  1018. Guus Ah, three defunct teams, according to you, are Comms, Review and UPnP.
  1019. Guus Do we have members of those teams here to confirm?
  1020. Guus Peter, Kev, Nyco, from memory...
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  1022. jonasw moparisthebest, I took a look at my draft for the color protoxep. there were a few edges to polish, unfortunately I’ll head to bed now. hopefully I get around to publish it tomorrow.
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  1024. moparisthebest sweet, no rush
  1025. dwd Guus, No, Kev wasn't ever on the Review team, as he was on Council throughout its existence (as was I, I think).
  1026. dwd Guus, I'm not sure anyone who was on it is still even a member.
  1027. fippo let me check when upnp was done (aka: spec published)
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  1030. fippo the upnp spec was published in february 2015 @ http://upnp.org/specs/arch/UPnP-arch-DeviceArchitecture-v2.0.pdf
  1031. Guus fippo: what does that mean in regards to the teams existence?
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  1035. fippo guus: "job done" i'd say
  1036. fippo and upnp.org seems not to exist anymore
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  1040. moparisthebest still registered though Open Connectivity Foundation, Inc.
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  1046. fippo well, didn't notify the XSF about the change in name so... :-)
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