GuusCan someone verify that we formally disbanded the Communiations Team and the Review Team?
Guusdwd seems to think so - lacking any documentation, it'd be good to have a second person weighing in.
Guusah, I forgot that there was a discussion on a mailing list. I'll continue it there.
jonaswis there an archive of board meeting minutes aside from the mailing list?
Guusthe website has them, but not after 2015
Guusthose are council votes and member vote meeting minutes
Guusjonasw: you might know: can we configure the mailing list daemon to have mailing list archives, without accepting new messages? Close the list down, without removing the archive?
jonaswthere are a few ways. one would be to remove all members, another would be to set all members to moderated and add a matching moderation/rejection message
jonaswthat way the list formally continues to exist, anyone (who has permission) can read the archives, and if needed you can resume list operation at some ponit
jonaswdownside: the moderation/rejection notice thing can turn into backscatter quickly, but if simply discarding all messages is ok, that’d work too
jonaswall of this can be done via the webinterface
jonaswmy two cents is that removing the supposedly inactive teams from the website after two rather experienced members mentioned that they have shut down is probably fine
jonaswif someone complains, git revert isn’t hard
jonaswbut I would probably wait it out too, if I was in your position ;-)
Guusjonasw: I'm modifying the PR as we type, and pointing to that PR in a mail reply.
Guuspeople can weigh in on that, and if they don't, we'll eventually merge the PR
Guus(but the PR doesn't take care of the MUC/Mailinglist entities, if they're there, so a bit more work might be needed)
Guusdone / mailed.
Guusalso, I'm out for now
jonaswnow I’m wondering whether it’d make sense to have loosly defined groups of occupants in MUCs which can be addressed with @foo, like @iteam. possible implementation: people who want to belong to a group publish <member xmlns="...">iteam</member> in their presence. their client will highlight on @iteam. other clients can show that @iteam refers to a specific group of people.
Ge0rGjonasw: ITYM MIX.
jonaswthis is entirely independent of the relay as long as it publishes presence
Ge0rGjonasw: I think that the idea has merit, but I'd rather use the affiliation mechanism for that.
jonaswmeh, probably breaks horribly with MSN
jonaswbut a JID can only have one affiliation, and affiliations also have influence on the permissions
Ge0rGDamn. We can't have nice things.
Ge0rGjonasw: [xep 317] is there.
jonasw(publishing this in presence has the advantage that things like CSI can act on that)
Ge0rGIs there an XEP to require bots to respond with a link to [xep FOO]?
jonaswthat looks much like what I proposed
dwdjonasw, Hats were intended as ad-hoc role based access control (sorta).
dwdjonasw, You're after self-selecting groups, right?
dwdjonasw, Self-selecting groups sound like an interesting concept.
jonasw(that XEP needs some wording on "MUC service supporting hats MUST NOT forward <hats/> payload in presences sent by clients"
jonaswdwd, thanks ☺
jonaswessentially it’d be publishing a list of words your client highlights on
dwdjonasw, I think XEP-0317 might need killing with fire, if it weren't an amusing bit of XSF lore.
dwdjonasw, Hmmm. Well. It's codifying a <reference/> system, that's for sure. Not so sure it'd be a simple text match, but maybe it would be in MUC.
jonaswmmm, using reference for that is appealing
SouLjonasw, I would love that feature. I miss it at work, for example. But it is really useful I think.
dwdjonasw, But anyway, it's a "publish a list in presence" thing, I think, if they're self-selecting, for MUC. For MIX, we could do something more formalised.
jonaswdwd, MIX could simply gather that from presence into a pubsub node
jonaswthen clients don’t have to worry about things
jonaswhm, then again, you probably don’t want to have the list to be the same in all rooms
jonaswthis would be a nice XEP to build on top of MUC, MIX and references.
dwdjonasw, MIX occupants might not have any presence, though.
jonaswdwd, yes, and there are other issues with that, so MIX indeed needs a different mechanism for this
dwdjonasw, Oh, and yeah, MIX presence is just broadcast presence, isn't it?
Ge0rGdwd: while we are on reference systems, were you able to get a grip on the reactions mechanism author?
jonaswtux, good morning and congrats :)
dwdGe0rG, Sort of. Doesn't work as cleverly as I'd thought.
tuxjonasw: thanks :)
dwdGe0rG, But also our internal document describing it is 0 bytes. :-)
tuxI tried to find out what "SCAM" means in the XSF context, but could not really find anything. (Mostly a resources page on the XMPP wiki; Google is not really helpful here.)
Could anybody please enlighten me? Or the newbies via members list? Am I just blind to the relevant paragraph/link?
dwdtux, Summits Conferences And Meet-ups.
jonaswtux, it is Summits, Conferences And Meetups team
Ge0rGI think there are two important issues with hats/notify-strings/whatever in presence:
1. it helps a MUC service / user's server to determine "important" messages and to push them to CSI-inactive / Push enabled clients.
2. this is another data leak in E2EE scenarios
jonaswGe0rG, don’t do it with E2EE unless you can encrypt whole stanzas *shrug*
Ge0rGjonasw: you know my position on E2EE :P
jonaswI indeed do
tuxThat page even mentions "SCAM", but Wiki search for SCAM only returns this page:
Ge0rGso, "jonasw> Ge0rG, don’t do it with E2EE" - full stop.
jonaswGe0rG, E2EE in MUC contexts is not my department
Ge0rGtux: there is also a wiki category "SCAM". Somebody should add a descriptive text to it.
tuxGe0rG: if its fine with you I'd just add the link for now
dwdGe0rG, Thanks for volunteering, Somebody.
tux(link to scam team page)
jonaswGe0rG, can you rename and redirect the "XSF_Summits_Conferences_And_Meetups_workgroup" page to "Summits, Conferences And Meetups (SCAM) workgroup" or something?
jonaswthen it’d turn up in the search more reliably
jonasw(I heard you have wiki powers)
Ge0rGdwd: I was trying to motivate our new member, actually
dwdAlso, it's a "Work Team", which has a formal meaning within our bylaws.
jonaswGe0rG, ah, then while renaming fix it to Work Team too :)
dwdWe should probably create a parallel "Special Interest Group", too, in order to have an open group without executive powers.
Ge0rGdwd: we should watch out that we don't end up with more groups than we have active members.
tuxI've just done this for now: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SCAM/
jonaswtux, good start, but trailing slashes are uncommon in wiki URLs
jonaswalso, try a #REDIRECT instead (<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Redirects>)
tux(Why does the wiki engine not remove the trailing slash from the URI? -.-)
Ge0rGtux: because you added one?
Ge0rG/es are kind of funny in mediawiki
jonasw/ is just another character to mediawiki
jonaswit doesn’t care
jonaswwhile it cares way too much about capitalisation
tuxOkay ,I should have moved the SCAM/ page instead of creating another one
tuxthe SCAM redirect is done, but I cannot get rid of SCAM/
jonaswyou might need Ge0rGs superpowers to remove SCAM/
jonaswyes, &action=delete gives a permissions error
tuxGe0rG: can you please remove SCAM/ ?
tuxis off to a meeting
Ge0rGtux: done as requested
tuxGe0rG: thanks :)
edhelaswould it be possible to add https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/T-DOSE_2017 to SCAM ?
Ge0rGedhelas: at your service
edhelasGuus, you just got a mail from Jean-Paul Saman to know what is the status
edhelasif there is people that lives in Belgium, NL or Europe in general and are interested about a nice little event in Eindhoven in November please have a look at the T-DOSE 2017 page on the wiki :)
SouLGuus, regarding the logo, if you check this: https://xmpp.org/images/promo/xmpp_server_guide_2017.pdf it looks OK there. Are there two versions of the logo or the author of that PDF updated the logo himself?
SouLI was sure that I saw the logo like you say on Github, but didn't want to say anything until I could find a proof
GuusSouL: I'm traveling. Please comment in github
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edhelashi, I'm working on my PR for pubsub#multi-items in the 0060
edhelaswhat do you think of "The service supports the storage of multiple items per node and requires the pubsub#max_items configuration item to be exposed to the user, and allow sensible values."
goffiedhelas: I don't see how max_items can indicate that there is no maximum (unlimited items)
goffiI think it's missing
edhelasshould we add that feature as well ?
edhelaswhat about setting it to zero ?
goffiit it's made mandatory with multi-items, it should be there for sure
goffialso max_items use underscore (_) while multi-items uses dash (-), should be made coherent
goffihum it's max_items which is not coherent with others, too late to change probably
goffimax_items is not even in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#features with others :(
edhelasshould I add it ?
edhelasI'll add it
goffiedhelas: max_items is not enough by the way ? If I have max_items > 1 I have multi-items right?
goffiI guess you should yes
goffiit will be reviewed by council anyway
edhelasyes but it's a feature exposure
edhelasif you have max-items exposed, I don't know if you can support more than 1
edhelasmulti-items ensure that
goffiedhelas: if max-items = 10 we know that we can support 10, and we should have a value for unlimited
edhelasor basically we change max-items and we say that it should be here if the server doesn't support more than one
goffilooks like redundant to me, but I may be missing something
edhelasgoffi, what if the node is not even configured, or not existant ?
edhelashow can I know if the service can handle more than one ?
goffiedhelas: oh you want this to be exposed by the service, not the node, OK
goffimax_items don't make sense for a service indeed
goffior maybe it does, not sure actually
edhelasralphm, here ?
edhelasgoffi, afaik, max-items is not a feature exposed by the service, but just a configuration variable
edhelasthat's why it's max_items and not max-items
edhelasmulti-items actually tell that info to the user and force max_items to be set above 1
goffiedhelas: but we need to know how many items, if it's multi-items but with 2 items max, it's not useful for e.g. a blog
edhelasthis is something different, I'm talking about the service features again here
goffithat doesn't change the point
jonaswGuus, your logo thing is a cannot unsee
edhelaswhat you are requestion is exposing max_items to the node metadata, like the title or the number of subscribers
edhelasgoffi, I'll add that in the metadata
goffiedhelas: it's also a service thing, if I create a new node, I need to know if I can store more that 5 items for instance
edhelasthis all "authorisation" thing is quite buggy in the 0060
edhelas"if I create a new node" => there's no way to know if you are even allowed to create a new node, or publish in it
edhelas0060 is based on a "fail to try" pattern
edhelasthis would require to expose the access model
goffiI don't see harm in that
goffiedhelas: it's missing a way to indicate "no limit"
Link Mauve“16:08:43 SamWhited> Because we have a lot of different clients and servers and enough interoperability problems without denying every element that has some clients proprietary extension in it.”, funny you say that, I’ve found a bunch of bugs in various implementations by doing exactly that. ^^
Link MauveNot that I would use it in release mode, but for debug it’s a fantastic tool.
goffiLink Mauve: what are you talking about? Looks interesting (I have not message from SamWhited in my logs, but I may be missing a part)
Link Mauvegoffi, it was about making a strict XMPP parser, which checks that no foreign element or attribute is set on known elements.
Link MauveI already found many issues in many different implementations, both clients and servers.
jonaswthe world’s small
jonaswLink Mauve, do you do your DNS yourself?
Link Mauvejonasw, no, I use the domain crate.
jonaswI see, anyways, I PM’d you with some issues I found, you may want to raise them with your provider
Link MauveAlso, xmpp-parsers itself doesn’t handle any connection, it only parses XML into Rust structures.
jonaswI was talking about DNS for linkmauve.fr
Link MauveOh, then yes I do. ^^
Ge0rGThe author of https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/this-spam-service-will-charge-25-to-stop-spamming-you/ seems to be very interested in XMPP <https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/author/catalin-cimpanu/> I wonder if we should contact him and involve him a bit in SPAM.
Link MauveFixed, I forgot to bump my SOA, so my secondary didn’t receive the newer revision.
SouLGe0rG, sounds like a very great idea! Nice to read this also "the easiest way to reach Catalin is via his XMPP/Jabber address at firstname.lastname@example.org."
Ge0rGSouL: yeah, I was positively impressed.
stefandxmIam making a protocol for time series data. I am seeking feedback to see if I should make an XEP of it. It is available at http://opensource.clayster.com/lwtsd/Communications/lwtsd/
jonaswGe0rG, yes we should
jonaswwill you do it?
stefandxm(it is work under progress)
stefandxmor in progress :-)
dwdstefandxm, The best way to seek such feedback is to submit it to the XSF as a protoXEP.
stefandxmdwd, yeah. but its quite a lot of work to rewrite it to xep format so I'd like some comments before committing to that
intosistefandxm: I note you added an element starting with xml (xmlschema), which is generally reserved for the XML spec itself (see XML 1.0 §3)
stefandxmty. ill fix that
stefandxmiam also struggling with my xml schema expertise in specifying "type" information. i tried to use xs:facet as xsd itself is doing but i couldnt get it through the parser
Link Mauvestefandxm, ugh, your server (opensource.clayster.com) doesn’t support HTTPS. :/
stefandxmbut the parser seems broken in mono so it might be valid
stefandxmlink mauve, i know.
Ge0rGjonasw: I will after reading all his articles
jonaswstefandxm, I’m having a hard time to figure out what the specifciation does and how it works in the end. A few examples would be useful
stefandxmjonasw, did you check the graphs in http://opensource.clayster.com/lwtsd/Communications/lwtsd/#operations-overview ?
jonaswyes, but those don’t show me why you’d use that specification for what
stefandxmbut yes, examples are coming
jonaswand what those resources are etc.
stefandxmthey are abstract so it may be that ;-)
jonaswexamples would be great
intosiWork in progress, thanks for sharing this early!
stefandxmalso, in the protocol definition it doesnt make sense to "sell in" the protocol itself. but its a bit tough to read from scratch i know that
stefandxmin the commercial side we make tutorials and stuff for the protocols but it doesnt make sense to add to the protocol itself
jonaswgenerally it sounds like something I could use myself, but I’m having a hard time to get a quick grasp on what it does
stefandxmbut xml examples is coming
stefandxmits a generic data manipulation for time series data ie data that has a originated time. like sensor data
stefandxmit has operations for write and read and subscriptions
stefandxmthe subscriptions work with triggers (and filters to be in another namespace). but it doesnt push the data it only informs new data is available
stefandxmthen the consumer needs to re-subscribe within a read to get new notifications
jonaswin general, it may be sensible to look at RSM (<https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html>), maybe you can re-use some syntax from there
stefandxmi dont see how i can apply it in a generic sense
stefandxmi want to support paginating in both total data set and within resource data set
stefandxmsince each resource may include n points
intosiThat's where RSM is generally useful, provided you have stable ids for every data point within a set.
stefandxmyou may also consider the data as being volatile
intosiThen how will you do pagination?
stefandxmby seeking and time frames
jonaswstefandxm, if you treat the exact timestamp as ID, you have what you need for RSM, afaict
stefandxmbut there may be many points on exact same timestamp
intosi^ what jonasw said
intosiNot inherently ordered then?
stefandxmso the source will have to store them as unique. which is not impossible but then you get modification/upsert hell
intosi(within the same timestamp)
stefandxmso the id will most likely not be an id in real life scenario
stefandxmfor me an id should be an id and not a seek index
stefandxmso for say a schema where the schema has not changed the id solution makes sense to me
stefandxmbut not for the data points were ids are not required
intosiFair enough, which is also why MAM has separate start / end timestamps to be used in conjection with RSM
stefandxmthe "volatileness" of the data in the data source makes it imo impossible to make seeking/pagination 100% without overhead. but in an application that can be addressed
stefandxmbut ive never seen a generic approach that works for all applications
stefandxmunless you want to remove the "volatileness". which is often doable but not always (demands a lot more resources/memory in the data source)
stefandxmbtw. this is a moving forward from our side to replace the retracted xeps by peter waher named sensor data, control and the numberless iot events
stefandxmand make it more generic and suitable for applications not using "iot"
stefandxmthe biggest challenge i see with this protocol is making the schema for resources easy to be implement but still extendable. thats why there is a simplified schema and a xmlschema (the element i will rename)
FlowIf i'm not mistaken the major concern with peter's IoT XEPs was them not being very XMPP idiomatic
stefandxmpersonally i have many concerns with them
stefandxmbut since they are history its no point to argue about them imo
Flowcourse, that's more a thing of preventing history repeating itself
Flowstefandxm: what is a "schema for resources"?
stefandxmyeah and thats why we are not sure if going via xsf is the perfect fit. but as long as we try to do it generic and xmpp-ish iam willing to give it a try :)
stefandxmflow, describing data types and capabilities
stefandxmie if a resource is an int or a string and if you can read it, write to it and what filters it supports to reduce noise in subscriptions
FlowI don't see the challenge exchanging data without prior knowledge about the structure, amount and type of the data
FlowAnd I assume by "capabilities" you mean something like "remote control"? If so, that's also mostly solved by ad-hoc commands I'd guess
stefandxmnah, just the stuff i wrote above really
stefandxmbut they may be done by writes with user specified types
stefandxmfor me data schematics is always a challenge :-)
stefandxmbut imo i managed to get it rather neat. but i am not sure everyone will agree hehe
stefandxmok. i believe i updated the xml* thing with new names (now extended schema)
moparisthebestare there security concerns with loading up unknown/untrusted schemas that you get sent?
moparisthebestI don't really know anything about it, but I'm wondering if you could maliciously replace some XMPP schemas or something
Ge0rGjonasw: "Consistent Color Generation" --> "Consistent Nickname Color Generation"
jonaswGe0rG, there are other use cases for that, such as roster groups
Ge0rGjonasw: as it is, the name lacks context.
jonaswGe0rG, comment on that on-list, so I don’t forget when I prepare an update
Ge0rGjonasw: I think that having a too-specific qualifier beats no qualifier.
moparisthebestI saw it as more generic, like you said, roster entries, bookmarks, etc
moparisthebestbut yea name doesn't matter
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: names DO matter.
moparisthebestxep names don't matter that much to me
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: they matter to client devs
moparisthebestjust curious now, why?
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: it is already hard enough to find relevant XEPs
stefandxmmop: there are concerns with dtd schemas
stefandxmmop, so they are defaultly prohibited by most parsers
moparisthebeststefandxm, are those the type of schemas you are talking about sending or not?
stefandxmthese are not
stefandxmthese are XML Schemas (xsd)
stefandxmbut if you chose to follow dtds then you may have problems
moparisthebestwhat if I send a schema for, uh, MAM or something but that I maliciously changed, would that overwrite the correct MAM schema?
stefandxmi guess that should be a topic yes
stefandxmhow to properly localize the namespace to the session
moparisthebestand that might even be specific to XML libraries or whatever
stefandxmor rather just not allow it to replace any existing schemas known to the client
stefandxmand only use them for the session
moparisthebestjust might need to be considered
stefandxmvery good suggestion
stefandxmi shall fix
moparisthebestI guess the only danger is if there is not a safe way to do this with any library or XML in general, then the design is inherently insecure and you can't be sending schemas around
moparisthebestI would think there is a safe way but I just don't know at all
stefandxmthere is secure ways
stefandxmtbh i never considered someone would do it an non-secure way
stefandxmbut i think it should be clarified
stefandxmin any way this is a more secure way than following URIs
stefandxmas long as the xmpp server is secured
stefandxmand you only use the schema in the entity to entity session
Tobiasjonasw, you know about http://tools.medialab.sciences-po.fr/iwanthue/ ?
jonaswTobias, you linked that, yes
Ge0rGYay, it looks like the psi and psi+ devs got resurrected and released a new version last month!
stefandxmmoparisthebest: ive added a note on it now
stefandxmproblem with xml schemas are basically the same as the xml itself. its vulnerable to parse it and its vulnerable not to use it hehe
stefandxmanother thing along these lines; ive been thinking about the maxOccours in the schemas
stefandxmit would make sense to add a sensible max rather than having unbounded
stefandxmesp in the requests
stefandxmthis way its possible for the server to protect the receiver. but it also would mean that basically the clients should tell the server what namespaces they want to filter
stefandxmtoday for instance ejabberd has a max stanza size but its impractical to have it statically defined
stefandxmhaving it defined on say namespace level and client would be a solution
stefandxmor namespace, entity (jid) and namespace
dwdjonasw, That's weird. I was talking about the existence of this algorithm about an hour and a half before you submitted that.
Ge0rGthe coloring algorithm?
Ge0rGIt was discussed in here several times over the last months
dwdYes, I know.
dwdI was demonstrating the difference between Gajim and another XMPP client, and Gajim colourizes - I mentioned there was this algorithm knocking about as well.
Ge0rGI hope that the proto-XEP will ignite discussion. Hope dies last.
Ge0rGI think that jonasw is aiming at a Ph.D. in sensible XMPP client design.
stefandxmiam missing the  Compensate for f.lux on the site
jonaswstefandxm, compensating for flux/redshift is definitely out of scope ;-)
jonasw(a) that’s time dependent and (b) tricky
Ge0rGI think that f.lux compensation should be done display-wide, not in an XMPP client.
jonaswdwd, ha, so I can count on your +1 ;)
Ge0rGUnless there is an XMPP client that can go back into 1955.
stefandxmam i the only one finding it confusing to talk about IM UIs as "xmpp clients"? :)
Ge0rGstefandxm: those are different things!
Ge0rGJabber client is the right term, of course.
stefandxmi remember the discussion from the summit this spring. i still find it confusing to have a protocol organ for a message bus discussing/voting on UI matters
jonaswre-instate the JSF to discuss IM-specific matters for maximum confusion!!!k
stefandxmand i cannot see how the expertise can be shared between systems protocols and ui design
stefandxmso far ivent met a single proffesional ui designer than can do system protocols and vice versa
Ge0rGstefandxm: which is a very pointed explanations of why all Jabber clients suck.
stefandxmi think the clients can be good but not all uis
stefandxmadium has a great ui but sucky xmpp client
Ge0rGstefandxm: I'm not a professional UI designer, but I know a little bit about UX and I am pondering about jabber client design a great deal of time
Ge0rGjonasw: "Jabber Software Alliance" or "Business Jabber Alliance" or some such.
stefandxmswift im has a horrid ui but a great xmpp client
Ge0rGstefandxm: now you made me curious, what's wrong with swift?
stefandxmit only supports one account and its ugly :)
ZashIncorrect and subjective.
stefandxmincorrect in what way?
ZashIt supports multiple accounts
ZashHidden away tho
stefandxmhaha speaking of uis
ZashCommand line flag iirc
Ge0rGstefandxm: I think that "ugly" is highly subjective and only a very small influence on the UX
stefandxmit doesnt have a "help" either
jonaswI’m confident that JabberCat will be awesome ;-)
stefandxmgeorg, an ui that doesnt follow the native look will always be ugly in my book
Ge0rGstefandxm: web is the new native.
Zashstefandxm: no --help ? whats this then https://q.zash.se/f445feffd14b.txt
stefandxmzash was talking about the ui
Zashstefandxm: I think the goal is to be simple enough to not need a built in help
Ge0rGmy point is: the look of widgets is secondary to proper usability.
stefandxmNumber of accounts to open windows for (unsupported)
stefandxmnot a shared contact list?
jonaswGe0rG, the look yes, but the feel not
Ge0rGBut I'd rather have a Qt-based client on windows that doesn't drop messages than a native one that can't fulfil basic IM expectations
jonaswQt is close to native on any platform
jonaswcloser than any web client at least
Zashjonasw: Always close, but always feeling slightly off
jonaswZash, but over the uncanny valley, I thnik
ZashAs someone who grew up with GTK+, all Qt apps look off to me
stefandxmon linux iam ok with Qt looking app. on osx its horrid
Ge0rGstefandxm: I also think that multi-account support is a power user feature only needed by 1% of Zimpies.
stefandxmgeorg, i dont think tahts true :)
Ge0rGstefandxm: but having support for multiple accounts makes the UI much more complex
moparisthebestif you really need it you can always use a xmpp->xmpp transport right? :)
stefandxmi dont know anyone that has only one im account
jonaswGe0rG, multi-account is tricky, but I think I found a reasonable UX solution for jabbercat
stefandxmGe0rG, sure. but adium does it neatly
jonaswstefandxm, I know a lot, all my non-nerd friends
stefandxmjonasw, they dont have google etc?
SouLWhat? I feel I'm a normie now, with just one XMPP account.
jonaswstefandxm, google doesn’t have any usable XMPP anymore
stefandxmi run google hangout, work jid, private jid and icq through one im client
stefandxmjonasw, yes they do
SouLAll my gmail contacts appear as offline
stefandxmi use it daily
SouLHow? Is still usable on the gmail page?
Ge0rGSouL: gmail f***ed xmpp.
stefandxmSouL, yes and with hangout app (included in android)
Ge0rGstefandxm: you are the power user.
SouLWhaat? That's new to me.
stefandxmits been like this since ever
SouLYour contacts had to do something, or what, stefandxm?
stefandxmthey never removed xmpp support
jonaswSouL, don’t let yourself be fooled, gmail federation is broken-ish
stefandxmfederation is not working no
Ge0rGI need a gmail-xmpp using volunteer please, for testing https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim/issues/201
stefandxmbut its still xmpp and works great for chatting
ZashI may have a multilple accounts, but I only use one, the rest are for testing and stuff.
ZashMost of my friends only have one too.
SouLAh man, there's no federation... Then there's nothing new :)
stefandxmGe0rG, you may add me if you want. email@example.com
Ge0rGstefandxm: is that gmail-hosted?
Ge0rGstefandxm: thanks, give me a minute to boot my other android.
stefandxmbut you need to be friends
stefandxmso its traditional xmpp
Ge0rGstefandxm: I don't have a mac unfortunately, so I can't check adium.
stefandxmpidgin also works
stefandxmi run pidgin on linux for same reasons as i run adium on mac
stefandxmpidgin is great ui. but sucky xmpp client =)
Ge0rGall xmpp clients suck. Especially the Jabber ones.
ZashWhich one(s) suck less?
Ge0rGmutt. Oh, wait.
stefandxmi havent been able to start swift im on linux
jonaswGe0rG, mutt with that french xmpp<->imap gateway?
stefandxm(and it didnt compile)
Ge0rGjonasw: I don't even want to imagine _that_.
jonaswGe0rG, heard of deltachat?
jonasw.oO(deltachat in front of imap<->xmpp gateway :-O)
ZashIMAP is pretty cool, why else would they be trying to kill and replace it with some JSON garbage?
Holger... works for me.
jonaswfor extra fun
stefandxmHolger, i dont use any of those distros
stefandxmso would give Unsupported system if i tried
stefandxmor wait, it had a || there
jonaswI always find it odd when people who use interesting exotic distributions complain about difficulties building and installing software :)
stefandxmit might work now then
stefandxmbut last time it didnt
moparisthebestwait there is an imap/xmpp gateway?
stefandxmjonasw, i think the more you know about linux the more problem you will have with dependencies
ZashI must know nothing then.
moparisthebeststefandxm, just curious, which distro?
stefandxmlinux mint kde on this one
stefandxmquite horrible tbh
moparisthebestthat's just ubuntu with some extra repos pretty sure?
stefandxmbut i gave up on debian experimental after the third broken upgrade in a year >D
stefandxmmoparisthebest, true and not true
moparisthebestoh, actualy, Holger 's script has a LinuxMint entry, same as Ubuntu
stefandxmi commentented on it above :)
stefandxmbut linux mint versions are not interchangeable
stefandxmsame as with debian of course
ZashIsn't the purpose of Debian experimental to be horribly broken?
stefandxmbut only way to get updated packages
tuxhas relatively good experience with debian unstable, if you know what you are doing
moparisthebestyea, I used Kubuntu for about 10 years but 16.04 broke everything so bad I switched to Arch and have been rather happy with that for a year
moparisthebestbreaks less than debian unstable from what I gather, but still newest everything
stefandxmtux, me too.. for a long while =)
Ge0rGthere are three flavors of debian: rusty, stale and broken.
SouLDid you consider KDE Neon, moparisthebest?
tuxby the way: I just verified that a current PSI+ can be built with Debian Stable. I'll do a backport pacakge in the near future.
jonaswtux, you’re a debian developer?
moparisthebestSouL, ah KDE neon, I tried it and it was still a bit too broken, and that was before they discovered they didn't enable PGP package signing and also left their package repo open for anyone to upload files to... :)
moparisthebestSouL, that would be https://www.kde.org/info/security/advisory-20161114-1.txt
tuxjonasw: nope, never really got around to do that, but I know how to build debian packages
SouLmoparisthebest, I downloaded it two months ago and it is what I'm using, since I was using Kubuntu too, before.
moparisthebestdid they start signing packages with PGP yet?
moparisthebestotherwise I'd stay far away just for security reasons
moparisthebestglad it works well now though, I tried around July 2016
Ge0rGGmail is weird. it reflects my own presence to me.
HolgerIsn't that standard behavior?
Ge0rGHolger: I mean the presence of my own full JID, not of my other sessions
HolgerGe0rG: "The user's server MUST also send the presence stanza to all of the user's available resources (including the resource that generated the presence notification in the first place)."
HolgerOr am I missing something?
Ge0rGHolger: whoops. Then it's just the first time I notice this. Thanks for clarifying
nycohey SCAM team members, we have a booth at the POSS, Paris Open Source Summit
nycothe stand will be on V29
tuxInteresting, this afternoon I thought about how nowadays one must also take the hash colour into account when creating a nick name, then I thought about how to ensure that every colouring scheme is identical and now there is this: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/colors.html
tuxThough I have mixed feelings about the color inversion - maybe have to try this out on a demonstrator.
tuxOr maybe the luminosity (Y) should be adapted instead.
tuxIs it customary to reply to the XMPP extension proposals?
jonaswtux, sure, feel free
jonaswadapting luminosity would be more a heuristic, mixing with the inverse does work, I have sapmles
jonasw(esp. adapting Y doesn’t work for coloured backgrounds)
tuxI just felt more natural to do these conversions in the YCbCr colour space
jonaswthat’s quite tricky I’m afraid
jonaswbecause YCbCr is not additive
jonaswRGB is, which is why the inversion-and-mixing thing works
tuxjonasw: in 5.4 the formulas don't give values for KR and KB
no mixing: https://sotecware.net/files/persistent/colors-xep/unmixed-bg.svg
stefandxmi am curious when this is wanted at all?
stefandxmdoes people want nick name colorization in chats?
jonaswstefandxm, yes, they do
tuxuses that feature
jonaswand also for avatars its great
ZashAre there any algorithms for identifying words with similar 'shape'?
stefandxmwont it just be a huge christmas tree?
tuxjonasw: I see, thanks for the sample :)
stefandxmi remember i tried it on irc back in the days and it was dreadful
jonaswZash, I doubt it
jonaswstefandxm, the xep also specifies that there MUST be a switch to turn it off, so...
moparisthebeststefandxm, well persistence and standardization would help, all my clients color nicks, but differently across clients and even in the same chat, sometimes
jonaswtux, you can mention the missing constants on-list
tuxstefandxm: Setting a good luminosity is key.
jonaswthey’re easy to find anywhere on the internet though
Zashstefandxm: looks fine to me: https://www.zash.se/upload/28QwkNpsRR5s.png
stefandxmthats horrible to me :)
tuxmaybe, but in a "we want to ensure everybody does the same thing" specification they should be mentioned.
stefandxmbecause when you apply highlights and notifications they get drowned our have to be even more shouty (as in your example)
moparisthebestso yesterday, to avoid highlighting them needlessly I'll change the name, gajim set both Buus and Be0rG to the same color and on glance I was confusing them
jonaswmoparisthebest, with XEP-XXXX, you can at least be sure that it will always happen, if it happens ;)
jonaswdoesn’t happen though, they have very different xorred crc32 values
moparisthebestjonasw, that might be interesting, have sample color lists for say, this muc?
moparisthebestor maybe #archlinux on freenode, some concrete real-life examples
jonaswmoparisthebest, can do
jonaswmay do soon
jonaswI have it implemented for avatar surrogates in my client, but I obviously can’t easily show you a screenshot of my roster ...
Ge0rGWe really need some easy-to-setup test account with fake roster entries and fake presence.
tuxThe discussion on whether there should be nick coloring is not really relevant, though. The thing is happening and the best reaction is IMHO to give it a good direction early on. (As with the proposed XEP.)
moparisthebestalso I'm a little colorblind so I hesitate to comment on actual colors, but I'll be able to tell if they look different enough for me, and others can look as well
tuxThe decision is only if there should be a common scheme or if things just go wild.
moparisthebestwell, things are going wild right now
moparisthebestthis optionally adds a common scheme :)
jonaswif you’d be willing to see how the color blind profiles work, let me know✎
jonaswif you’d be willing to see how well the color blind profiles work, let me know ✏
jonaswuntil now I only have one sample (with a red/green blind person)
moparisthebestsure jonasw , I'm not sure what I have is exactly called, but I see like, certain browns as army green, not positive
jonaswthat could be a light red/green defiency
jonaswwe should talk later, I’ll be off for half an our or something
moparisthebestyep, I looked up the exact word one day but have forgotten :)
jonaswmoparisthebest, refreshed with three color columns, which are: plain, red/green-blindness corrected, blue-blindness corrected
pep.jonasw, how many colors is this?
mimi89999jonasw: I don't get that thing...
pep.jonasw, why do you care for color-blindness? It's just to quickly identify people right? you don't care if color-blind people don't see the same color as others?
pep.It's not like people were going to compare colors
pep.Or am I missing something?
intosiColour rotating nickname sets, that will be a thing.
jonaswpep., the issue is that the deficiencies affect different ranges of the color space differently, so we can do better by avoiding those ranges
jonaswpep., I don’t understand the question "how many colors"
jonaswit’s as many colors as there are names
jonaswup to 2^16 (due to folding crc32 into an unsigned 16 bit integer)
jonaswmimi89999, what’s your question?
mimi89999jonasw: What is that svg about?
jonaswmimi89999, it shows the colors the ProtoXEP which was announced on standards@ generates for the nicknames in this room
jonaswin three variants, from left to right: "normal", "corrected for red/green-deficiency", "corrected for blue-deficiency"
jonaswGe0rG, I agree. I already thought about how to set that up. maybe some prosody docker image with pre-configured accounts
jonaswI have a testbed, but it’s rather small, not large enough to effectively test the coloring things
tuxHow about scraping sth like Twitter for a nickname set?
SouLAren't there libraries like faker for python? For stuff like that
moparisthebestjonasw, thanks so, those columns, and again, I don't know if I'm seeing what you are seeing
jonaswSouL, you still need to set up accounts etc.
moparisthebestthe middle column, is mostly pink/orange
jonaswand add clients
moparisthebestjonasw, you, kev, la|r|ma have *identical* orange colors, in the middle column
moparisthebestis that what you see or no
jonaswyes, that’s in all columns the case
jonaswdoesn’t matter that much really
moparisthebestthe middle seems the worst to me though, almost everyone is pink
jonaswmoparisthebest, interesting, and possibly bad
moparisthebestis that what you see or not? :)
jonaswthere are some oranges in there
moparisthebestit's subtely different shades of pink, but, mostly pink
moparisthebestmaybe better, I was going to say all shades of green, but that's mostly at top
moparisthebestno actually I think that is far better
jonaswI think too
moparisthebestagain just for my eyes might be worse for everyone else who knows
jonaswno, I think that makes sense
jonaswin case of doubt is green easier on the eyes compared to pink
jonaswsimply because one is evolutionary more used to green tones and we can distinguish more shades of green
moparisthebestabove my head, seems to make sense though
moparisthebestout of those 3 profiles I prefer middle for sure, I preferred left before
jonaswmoparisthebest, prefer it visually, or from being able to distinguish colors?
moparisthebestseems more distinguishable yes
jonaswmoparisthebest, great :-)
moparisthebestthe left has a bunch of 2 or 3 in a row of almost identical shades
jonaswcan you reload once more?
moparisthebestmore blue-ish than green-ish ?
jonaswmaybe, not sure
Steve Killehas left
jonaswanyways, thanks for your input
moparisthebestBunneh, and next two, I hate highlighting random people
moparisthebestthe green sticks out more there, to me
jonaswmore than the shades on the left?
moparisthebestno not in that case
moparisthebestit does seem to have groups of the same color in a row, like groups of 2 and sometimes 3
moparisthebestfor alphabetical names that's bad, not sure if there is a solution though
jonaswmoparisthebest, I thnik that may be a property of CRC32 :/
moparisthebestjonasw, what if you used something else, md5, Adler-32, Fletcher-32 ?
jonaswadler32 is worse on those short inputs
18:43:19 jonasw> crytographic hash functinos are generally a bit better
18:44:36 jonasw> but people complain that those are hard to implement / have high overhead
18:44:50 jonasw> and even in those cases there are still close nicknames which aren’t ideal
jonaswahh, salting the CRC32 with 256 bits does something good
jonaswmoparisthebest, care to reload?
moparisthebestI'm not sure md5 is hard or has high overhead :/
moparisthebestyea hang on
moparisthebestI think that's worse, look at tu-x and next 3
moparisthebestnext 2 I mean, also it still has the every few being the same
ZashThat graph says otherwise ;)
jonaswmoparisthebest, I don’t think that’s a bad thing in that special case. they differ by their first letter, so your brain generally can distinguish them well
jonaswmoparisthebest, re performance: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/9n701UwrIuU2NFuTexy7rFpu3Auf7zbQlVsEyFTVqAM.png
jonaswso md5/sha1 are an order of magnitude slower than CRC32 on those input sizes
moparisthebestare we talking about the difference in 0.01s and 0.02s for all participants in a typically sized muc ?
moparisthebestbecause, who cares
jonaswmoparisthebest, first, implementations may not always be able to cache the colors (daniel brought that up)
moparisthebestI think it might even be less than that?
jonaswit’s a factor of three in that region
jonaswlowering slowly to 2.5 at the right edge of the reasonable range for nicknames and such
moparisthebest3 times slower than a millionth of a second?
GuusLink Mauve, you here?
danielWell maybe we should try md5. If it looks better we might want to live with it
jonaswdaniel, it does, but salting CRC32 with 64 bytes does the trick
jonaswand is still fast
moparisthebestunless I'm reading the graph wrong, 3/1,000,000s is technically 3x slower than 1/1,000,000s, but still well within the no one cares range
jonaswmoparisthebest, reload for md5-based colors
jonaswI don’t think it does a lot of good
moparisthebesthmm disappointing I agree it's basically the same issue
moparisthebestsha1 doesn't do better either?
moparisthebestis it not fixable based on low bytecount or can we just throw algorithms at it until one sticks :)
jonaswmoparisthebest, I think it’s not fixable due to the low amount of colours we can distinguish
jonaswbut indeed, we need to specify a salt input for CRC32, that improves things massively
tuxjonasw: is there a reason you're using crc instead of sha?
tuxAh, nvw. Just read your answer to the question.
tuxThough I think that the processing time is not relevant here.
moparisthebesttux: I don't think processing speed matters either here but md5 also wasn't any better so :(