XSF Discussion - 2017-09-14

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  56. Guus

    peter: Raja hi's you back. ;)

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  82. Guus

    Can someone verify that we formally disbanded the Communiations Team and the Review Team?

  83. Guus

    dwd seems to think so - lacking any documentation, it'd be good to have a second person weighing in.

  84. Guus

    ah, I forgot that there was a discussion on a mailing list. I'll continue it there.

  85. jonasw

    is there an archive of board meeting minutes aside from the mailing list?

  86. Guus

    the website has them, but not after 2015

  87. Guus

    ah, no

  88. Guus

    those are council votes and member vote meeting minutes

  89. Guus

    not board

  90. Guus

    jonasw: you might know: can we configure the mailing list daemon to have mailing list archives, without accepting new messages? Close the list down, without removing the archive?

  91. jonasw

    Guus, yes

  92. jonasw

    there are a few ways. one would be to remove all members, another would be to set all members to moderated and add a matching moderation/rejection message

  93. jonasw

    that way the list formally continues to exist, anyone (who has permission) can read the archives, and if needed you can resume list operation at some ponit

  94. jonasw

    downside: the moderation/rejection notice thing can turn into backscatter quickly, but if simply discarding all messages is ok, that’d work too

  95. Guus


  96. jonasw

    all of this can be done via the webinterface

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  98. jonasw

    my two cents is that removing the supposedly inactive teams from the website after two rather experienced members mentioned that they have shut down is probably fine

  99. jonasw

    if someone complains, git revert isn’t hard

  100. jonasw

    but I would probably wait it out too, if I was in your position ;-)

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  103. Guus

    jonasw: I'm modifying the PR as we type, and pointing to that PR in a mail reply.

  104. Guus

    people can weigh in on that, and if they don't, we'll eventually merge the PR

  105. Guus

    (but the PR doesn't take care of the MUC/Mailinglist entities, if they're there, so a bit more work might be needed)

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  107. Guus

    done / mailed.

  108. Guus

    also, I'm out for now

  109. Guus


  110. jonasw


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  114. jonasw

    now I’m wondering whether it’d make sense to have loosly defined groups of occupants in MUCs which can be addressed with @foo, like @iteam. possible implementation: people who want to belong to a group publish <member xmlns="...">iteam</member> in their presence. their client will highlight on @iteam. other clients can show that @iteam refers to a specific group of people.

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  116. Ge0rG

    jonasw: ITYM MIX.

  117. jonasw


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  120. jonasw

    this is entirely independent of the relay as long as it publishes presence

  121. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I think that the idea has merit, but I'd rather use the affiliation mechanism for that.

  122. jonasw

    meh, probably breaks horribly with MSN

  123. jonasw

    but a JID can only have one affiliation, and affiliations also have influence on the permissions

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  125. Ge0rG

    Damn. We can't have nice things.

  126. Ge0rG

    jonasw: [xep 317] is there.

  127. jonasw

    (publishing this in presence has the advantage that things like CSI can act on that)

  128. Ge0rG

    Sigh. Bots?! https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0317.html

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  130. jonasw


  131. Ge0rG

    Is there an XEP to require bots to respond with a link to [xep FOO]?

  132. jonasw

    that looks much like what I proposed

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  135. dwd

    jonasw, Hats were intended as ad-hoc role based access control (sorta).

  136. jonasw

    syntactically anyways

  137. dwd

    jonasw, You're after self-selecting groups, right?

  138. jonasw


  139. dwd

    jonasw, Self-selecting groups sound like an interesting concept.

  140. jonasw

    (that XEP needs some wording on "MUC service supporting hats MUST NOT forward <hats/> payload in presences sent by clients"

  141. jonasw


  142. jonasw

    dwd, thanks ☺

  143. jonasw

    essentially it’d be publishing a list of words your client highlights on

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  145. dwd

    jonasw, I think XEP-0317 might need killing with fire, if it weren't an amusing bit of XSF lore.

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  147. dwd

    jonasw, Hmmm. Well. It's codifying a <reference/> system, that's for sure. Not so sure it'd be a simple text match, but maybe it would be in MUC.

  148. jonasw

    mmm, using reference for that is appealing

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  151. SouL

    jonasw, I would love that feature. I miss it at work, for example. But it is really useful I think.

  152. dwd

    jonasw, But anyway, it's a "publish a list in presence" thing, I think, if they're self-selecting, for MUC. For MIX, we could do something more formalised.

  153. jonasw

    dwd, MIX could simply gather that from presence into a pubsub node

  154. jonasw

    then clients don’t have to worry about things

  155. jonasw

    hm, then again, you probably don’t want to have the list to be the same in all rooms

  156. jonasw

    this would be a nice XEP to build on top of MUC, MIX and references.

  157. dwd

    jonasw, MIX occupants might not have any presence, though.

  158. jonasw

    dwd, yes, and there are other issues with that, so MIX indeed needs a different mechanism for this

  159. dwd

    jonasw, Oh, and yeah, MIX presence is just broadcast presence, isn't it?

  160. Ge0rG

    dwd: while we are on reference systems, were you able to get a grip on the reactions mechanism author?

  161. tux

    Good morning!

  162. jonasw


  163. jonasw

    tux, good morning and congrats :)

  164. dwd

    Ge0rG, Sort of. Doesn't work as cleverly as I'd thought.

  165. tux

    jonasw: thanks :)

  166. dwd

    Ge0rG, But also our internal document describing it is 0 bytes. :-)

  167. tux

    I tried to find out what "SCAM" means in the XSF context, but could not really find anything. (Mostly a resources page on the XMPP wiki; Google is not really helpful here.) Could anybody please enlighten me? Or the newbies via members list? Am I just blind to the relevant paragraph/link?

  168. dwd

    tux, Summits Conferences And Meet-ups.

  169. jonasw

    tux, it is Summits, Conferences And Meetups team

  170. Ge0rG

    I think there are two important issues with hats/notify-strings/whatever in presence: 1. it helps a MUC service / user's server to determine "important" messages and to push them to CSI-inactive / Push enabled clients. 2. this is another data leak in E2EE scenarios

  171. tux

    Ah, thanks :D

  172. dwd

    tux, Outreach work team, basically.

  173. Ge0rG

    tux: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XSF_Summits_Conferences_And_Meetups_workgroup

  174. jonasw

    Ge0rG, don’t do it with E2EE unless you can encrypt whole stanzas *shrug*

  175. Ge0rG

    jonasw: you know my position on E2EE :P

  176. jonasw


  177. jonasw

    I indeed do

  178. tux

    That page even mentions "SCAM", but Wiki search for SCAM only returns this page: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SCAM/Material

  179. Ge0rG

    so, "jonasw> Ge0rG, don’t do it with E2EE" - full stop.

  180. jonasw

    Ge0rG, E2EE in MUC contexts is not my department

  181. Ge0rG

    tux: there is also a wiki category "SCAM". Somebody should add a descriptive text to it.

  182. tux

    Ge0rG: if its fine with you I'd just add the link for now

  183. dwd

    Ge0rG, Thanks for volunteering, Somebody.

  184. tux

    (link to scam team page)

  185. jonasw

    Ge0rG, can you rename and redirect the "XSF_Summits_Conferences_And_Meetups_workgroup" page to "Summits, Conferences And Meetups (SCAM) workgroup" or something?

  186. jonasw

    then it’d turn up in the search more reliably

  187. jonasw

    (I heard you have wiki powers)

  188. Ge0rG

    dwd: I was trying to motivate our new member, actually

  189. dwd

    Also, it's a "Work Team", which has a formal meaning within our bylaws.

  190. jonasw

    Ge0rG, ah, then while renaming fix it to Work Team too :)

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  194. dwd

    We should probably create a parallel "Special Interest Group", too, in order to have an open group without executive powers.

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  197. Ge0rG

    dwd: we should watch out that we don't end up with more groups than we have active members.

  198. tux

    I've just done this for now: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SCAM/

  199. jonasw

    tux, good start, but trailing slashes are uncommon in wiki URLs

  200. jonasw

    also, try a #REDIRECT instead (<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Redirects>)

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  202. tux

    (Why does the wiki engine not remove the trailing slash from the URI? -.-)

  203. Ge0rG

    tux: because you added one?

  204. Ge0rG

    /es are kind of funny in mediawiki

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  206. jonasw

    / is just another character to mediawiki

  207. jonasw

    it doesn’t care

  208. jonasw

    while it cares way too much about capitalisation

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  211. tux

    I see.

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  217. tux

    Okay ,I should have moved the SCAM/ page instead of creating another one

  218. tux

    the SCAM redirect is done, but I cannot get rid of SCAM/

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  220. jonasw

    you might need Ge0rGs superpowers to remove SCAM/

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  222. jonasw

    yes, &action=delete gives a permissions error

  223. tux

    Ge0rG: can you please remove SCAM/ ?

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  225. tux is off to a meeting

  226. Ge0rG

    tux: done as requested

  227. tux

    Ge0rG: thanks :)

  228. edhelas

    would it be possible to add https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/T-DOSE_2017 to SCAM ?

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  233. Ge0rG

    edhelas: at your service

  234. edhelas

    Guus, you just got a mail from Jean-Paul Saman to know what is the status

  235. edhelas

    if there is people that lives in Belgium, NL or Europe in general and are interested about a nice little event in Eindhoven in November please have a look at the T-DOSE 2017 page on the wiki :)

  236. SouL

    Guus, regarding the logo, if you check this: https://xmpp.org/images/promo/xmpp_server_guide_2017.pdf it looks OK there. Are there two versions of the logo or the author of that PDF updated the logo himself?

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  241. Guus

    SouL: unsure

  242. SouL

    I was sure that I saw the logo like you say on Github, but didn't want to say anything until I could find a proof

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  249. Guus

    SouL: I'm traveling. Please comment in github

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  267. edhelas

    hi, I'm working on my PR for pubsub#multi-items in the 0060

  268. edhelas

    what do you think of "The service supports the storage of multiple items per node and requires the pubsub#max_items configuration item to be exposed to the user, and allow sensible values."

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  273. goffi

    edhelas: I don't see how max_items can indicate that there is no maximum (unlimited items)

  274. goffi

    I think it's missing

  275. edhelas

    should we add that feature as well ?

  276. edhelas

    what about setting it to zero ?

  277. goffi

    it it's made mandatory with multi-items, it should be there for sure

  278. goffi

    also max_items use underscore (_) while multi-items uses dash (-), should be made coherent

  279. goffi

    hum it's max_items which is not coherent with others, too late to change probably

  280. goffi

    max_items is not even in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#features with others :(

  281. edhelas

    should I add it ?

  282. edhelas

    I'll add it

  283. goffi

    edhelas: max_items is not enough by the way ? If I have max_items > 1 I have multi-items right?

  284. goffi

    I guess you should yes

  285. goffi

    it will be reviewed by council anyway

  286. edhelas

    yes but it's a feature exposure

  287. edhelas

    if you have max-items exposed, I don't know if you can support more than 1

  288. edhelas

    multi-items ensure that

  289. goffi

    edhelas: if max-items = 10 we know that we can support 10, and we should have a value for unlimited

  290. edhelas

    or basically we change max-items and we say that it should be here if the server doesn't support more than one

  291. goffi

    looks like redundant to me, but I may be missing something

  292. edhelas

    goffi, what if the node is not even configured, or not existant ?

  293. edhelas

    how can I know if the service can handle more than one ?

  294. goffi

    edhelas: oh you want this to be exposed by the service, not the node, OK

  295. goffi

    max_items don't make sense for a service indeed

  296. goffi

    or maybe it does, not sure actually

  297. edhelas

    ralphm, here ?

  298. edhelas

    goffi, afaik, max-items is not a feature exposed by the service, but just a configuration variable

  299. edhelas

    that's why it's max_items and not max-items

  300. edhelas

    multi-items actually tell that info to the user and force max_items to be set above 1

  301. goffi

    edhelas: but we need to know how many items, if it's multi-items but with 2 items max, it's not useful for e.g. a blog

  302. edhelas

    this is something different, I'm talking about the service features again here

  303. goffi

    that doesn't change the point

  304. jonasw

    Guus, your logo thing is a cannot unsee

  305. edhelas

    what you are requestion is exposing max_items to the node metadata, like the title or the number of subscribers

  306. edhelas


  307. edhelas

    goffi, I'll add that in the metadata

  308. goffi

    edhelas: it's also a service thing, if I create a new node, I need to know if I can store more that 5 items for instance

  309. edhelas

    this all "authorisation" thing is quite buggy in the 0060

  310. edhelas

    "if I create a new node" => there's no way to know if you are even allowed to create a new node, or publish in it

  311. edhelas

    0060 is based on a "fail to try" pattern

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  314. edhelas

    this would require to expose the access model

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  317. goffi

    I don't see harm in that

  318. edhelas


  319. goffi

    edhelas: it's missing a way to indicate "no limit"

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  321. edhelas

    goffi, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/500#issuecomment-329440142

  322. goffi

    edhelas: OK good

  323. Guus

    jonasw: welcome in my world of cannot unsee.

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  325. Link Mauve

    “16:08:43 SamWhited> Because we have a lot of different clients and servers and enough interoperability problems without denying every element that has some clients proprietary extension in it.”, funny you say that, I’ve found a bunch of bugs in various implementations by doing exactly that. ^^

  326. Link Mauve

    Not that I would use it in release mode, but for debug it’s a fantastic tool.

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  339. goffi

    Link Mauve: what are you talking about? Looks interesting (I have not message from SamWhited in my logs, but I may be missing a part)

  340. Holger

    goffi: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2017-09-12/#15:05:02

  341. Link Mauve

    goffi, it was about making a strict XMPP parser, which checks that no foreign element or attribute is set on known elements.

  342. Link Mauve


  343. Link Mauve

    I already found many issues in many different implementations, both clients and servers.

  344. jonasw


  345. jonasw

    the world’s small

  346. jonasw

    Link Mauve, do you do your DNS yourself?

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  348. Link Mauve

    jonasw, no, I use the domain crate.

  349. jonasw

    I see, anyways, I PM’d you with some issues I found, you may want to raise them with your provider

  350. Link Mauve

    Also, xmpp-parsers itself doesn’t handle any connection, it only parses XML into Rust structures.

  351. jonasw


  352. jonasw

    different thing

  353. jonasw

    I was talking about DNS for linkmauve.fr

  354. Link Mauve

    Oh, then yes I do. ^^

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  358. Ge0rG

    The author of https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/this-spam-service-will-charge-25-to-stop-spamming-you/ seems to be very interested in XMPP <https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/author/catalin-cimpanu/> I wonder if we should contact him and involve him a bit in SPAM.

  359. Link Mauve

    Fixed, I forgot to bump my SOA, so my secondary didn’t receive the newer revision.

  360. SouL

    Ge0rG, sounds like a very great idea! Nice to read this also "the easiest way to reach Catalin is via his XMPP/Jabber address at campuscodi@xmpp.is."

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  364. Ge0rG

    SouL: yeah, I was positively impressed.

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  366. stefandxm

    Iam making a protocol for time series data. I am seeking feedback to see if I should make an XEP of it. It is available at http://opensource.clayster.com/lwtsd/Communications/lwtsd/

  367. jonasw

    Ge0rG, yes we should

  368. jonasw

    will you do it?

  369. stefandxm

    (it is work under progress)

  370. stefandxm

    or in progress :-)

  371. dwd

    stefandxm, The best way to seek such feedback is to submit it to the XSF as a protoXEP.

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  373. stefandxm

    dwd, yeah. but its quite a lot of work to rewrite it to xep format so I'd like some comments before committing to that

  374. intosi

    stefandxm: I note you added an element starting with xml (xmlschema), which is generally reserved for the XML spec itself (see XML 1.0 §3)

  375. stefandxm

    ty. ill fix that

  376. intosi


  377. stefandxm

    iam also struggling with my xml schema expertise in specifying "type" information. i tried to use xs:facet as xsd itself is doing but i couldnt get it through the parser

  378. Link Mauve

    stefandxm, ugh, your server (opensource.clayster.com) doesn’t support HTTPS. :/

  379. stefandxm

    but the parser seems broken in mono so it might be valid

  380. stefandxm

    link mauve, i know.

  381. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I will after reading all his articles

  382. jonasw

    stefandxm, I’m having a hard time to figure out what the specifciation does and how it works in the end. A few examples would be useful

  383. stefandxm

    jonasw, did you check the graphs in http://opensource.clayster.com/lwtsd/Communications/lwtsd/#operations-overview ?

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  386. jonasw

    yes, but those don’t show me why you’d use that specification for what

  387. stefandxm

    but yes, examples are coming

  388. jonasw

    and what those resources are etc.

  389. stefandxm

    they are abstract so it may be that ;-)

  390. jonasw

    possibly :)

  391. jonasw

    examples would be great

  392. stefandxm

    yeah. coming

  393. intosi

    Work in progress, thanks for sharing this early!

  394. stefandxm

    also, in the protocol definition it doesnt make sense to "sell in" the protocol itself. but its a bit tough to read from scratch i know that

  395. stefandxm

    in the commercial side we make tutorials and stuff for the protocols but it doesnt make sense to add to the protocol itself

  396. jonasw

    generally it sounds like something I could use myself, but I’m having a hard time to get a quick grasp on what it does

  397. stefandxm

    but xml examples is coming

  398. stefandxm

    its a generic data manipulation for time series data ie data that has a originated time. like sensor data

  399. stefandxm

    it has operations for write and read and subscriptions

  400. stefandxm

    the subscriptions work with triggers (and filters to be in another namespace). but it doesnt push the data it only informs new data is available

  401. stefandxm

    then the consumer needs to re-subscribe within a read to get new notifications

  402. jonasw

    in general, it may be sensible to look at RSM (<https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html>), maybe you can re-use some syntax from there

  403. stefandxm

    i dont see how i can apply it in a generic sense

  404. stefandxm

    i want to support paginating in both total data set and within resource data set

  405. stefandxm

    since each resource may include n points

  406. intosi

    That's where RSM is generally useful, provided you have stable ids for every data point within a set.

  407. stefandxm

    it wont

  408. stefandxm

    you may also consider the data as being volatile

  409. intosi

    Then how will you do pagination?

  410. stefandxm

    by seeking and time frames

  411. intosi

    Time range?

  412. jonasw

    stefandxm, if you treat the exact timestamp as ID, you have what you need for RSM, afaict

  413. stefandxm

    but there may be many points on exact same timestamp

  414. intosi

    ^ what jonasw said

  415. intosi

    Not inherently ordered then?

  416. stefandxm

    so the source will have to store them as unique. which is not impossible but then you get modification/upsert hell

  417. intosi

    (within the same timestamp)

  418. stefandxm

    so the id will most likely not be an id in real life scenario

  419. stefandxm

    for me an id should be an id and not a seek index

  420. stefandxm

    so for say a schema where the schema has not changed the id solution makes sense to me

  421. stefandxm

    but not for the data points were ids are not required

  422. intosi

    Fair enough, which is also why MAM has separate start / end timestamps to be used in conjection with RSM

  423. intosi


  424. stefandxm

    the "volatileness" of the data in the data source makes it imo impossible to make seeking/pagination 100% without overhead. but in an application that can be addressed

  425. stefandxm

    but ive never seen a generic approach that works for all applications

  426. stefandxm

    unless you want to remove the "volatileness". which is often doable but not always (demands a lot more resources/memory in the data source)

  427. stefandxm

    btw. this is a moving forward from our side to replace the retracted xeps by peter waher named sensor data, control and the numberless iot events

  428. stefandxm

    and make it more generic and suitable for applications not using "iot"

  429. stefandxm

    the biggest challenge i see with this protocol is making the schema for resources easy to be implement but still extendable. thats why there is a simplified schema and a xmlschema (the element i will rename)

  430. Flow

    If i'm not mistaken the major concern with peter's IoT XEPs was them not being very XMPP idiomatic

  431. stefandxm

    personally i have many concerns with them

  432. stefandxm

    but since they are history its no point to argue about them imo

  433. Flow

    course, that's more a thing of preventing history repeating itself

  434. Valerian has left

  435. Flow

    stefandxm: what is a "schema for resources"?

  436. stefandxm

    yeah and thats why we are not sure if going via xsf is the perfect fit. but as long as we try to do it generic and xmpp-ish iam willing to give it a try :)

  437. stefandxm

    flow, describing data types and capabilities

  438. stefandxm

    ie if a resource is an int or a string and if you can read it, write to it and what filters it supports to reduce noise in subscriptions

  439. Flow

    I don't see the challenge exchanging data without prior knowledge about the structure, amount and type of the data

  440. Flow

    And I assume by "capabilities" you mean something like "remote control"? If so, that's also mostly solved by ad-hoc commands I'd guess

  441. stefandxm

    nah, just the stuff i wrote above really

  442. stefandxm

    but they may be done by writes with user specified types

  443. stefandxm

    for me data schematics is always a challenge :-)

  444. stefandxm

    but imo i managed to get it rather neat. but i am not sure everyone will agree hehe

  445. Martin has joined

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  447. stefandxm

    ok. i believe i updated the xml* thing with new names (now extended schema)

  448. Zash has left

  449. Zash has left

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  451. tux has left

  452. moparisthebest

    are there security concerns with loading up unknown/untrusted schemas that you get sent?

  453. moparisthebest

    I don't really know anything about it, but I'm wondering if you could maliciously replace some XMPP schemas or something

  454. Ge0rG

    jonasw: "Consistent Color Generation" --> "Consistent Nickname Color Generation"

  455. Ge0rG

    or "User"

  456. jonasw

    Ge0rG, there are other use cases for that, such as roster groups

  457. Ge0rG

    jonasw: as it is, the name lacks context.

  458. Valerian has joined

  459. jonasw

    Ge0rG, comment on that on-list, so I don’t forget when I prepare an update

  460. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I think that having a too-specific qualifier beats no qualifier.

  461. moparisthebest

    I saw it as more generic, like you said, roster entries, bookmarks, etc

  462. moparisthebest

    but yea name doesn't matter

  463. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: names DO matter.

  464. moparisthebest

    xep names don't matter that much to me

  465. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: they matter to client devs

  466. moparisthebest

    just curious now, why?

  467. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: it is already hard enough to find relevant XEPs

  468. stefandxm

    mop: there are concerns with dtd schemas

  469. stefandxm

    mop, so they are defaultly prohibited by most parsers

  470. moparisthebest

    stefandxm, are those the type of schemas you are talking about sending or not?

  471. stefandxm

    these are not

  472. stefandxm

    these are XML Schemas (xsd)

  473. stefandxm

    but if you chose to follow dtds then you may have problems

  474. moparisthebest

    what if I send a schema for, uh, MAM or something but that I maliciously changed, would that overwrite the correct MAM schema?

  475. stefandxm

    i guess that should be a topic yes

  476. stefandxm

    how to properly localize the namespace to the session

  477. moparisthebest

    and that might even be specific to XML libraries or whatever

  478. stefandxm

    or rather just not allow it to replace any existing schemas known to the client

  479. stefandxm

    and only use them for the session

  480. moparisthebest

    just might need to be considered

  481. stefandxm


  482. stefandxm

    very good suggestion

  483. stefandxm

    i shall fix

  484. moparisthebest

    I guess the only danger is if there is not a safe way to do this with any library or XML in general, then the design is inherently insecure and you can't be sending schemas around

  485. moparisthebest

    I would think there is a safe way but I just don't know at all

  486. stefandxm

    there is secure ways

  487. stefandxm

    tbh i never considered someone would do it an non-secure way

  488. stefandxm

    but i think it should be clarified

  489. stefandxm

    in any way this is a more secure way than following URIs

  490. stefandxm

    as long as the xmpp server is secured

  491. stefandxm

    and you only use the schema in the entity to entity session

  492. tux has left

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  494. SamWhited has joined

  495. Wiktor has joined

  496. Tobias

    jonasw, you know about http://tools.medialab.sciences-po.fr/iwanthue/ ?

  497. jonasw

    Tobias, you linked that, yes

  498. Tobias

    ah..k :)

  499. daniel has left

  500. Ge0rG

    Yay, it looks like the psi and psi+ devs got resurrected and released a new version last month!

  501. stefandxm

    moparisthebest: ive added a note on it now

  502. moparisthebest

    Excellent :)

  503. stefandxm

    problem with xml schemas are basically the same as the xml itself. its vulnerable to parse it and its vulnerable not to use it hehe

  504. uc has left

  505. daniel has joined

  506. stefandxm

    another thing along these lines; ive been thinking about the maxOccours in the schemas

  507. stefandxm

    it would make sense to add a sensible max rather than having unbounded

  508. stefandxm

    esp in the requests

  509. jere has left

  510. jere has joined

  511. stefandxm

    this way its possible for the server to protect the receiver. but it also would mean that basically the clients should tell the server what namespaces they want to filter

  512. stefandxm

    today for instance ejabberd has a max stanza size but its impractical to have it statically defined

  513. stefandxm

    having it defined on say namespace level and client would be a solution

  514. stefandxm

    or namespace, entity (jid) and namespace

  515. dwd

    jonasw, That's weird. I was talking about the existence of this algorithm about an hour and a half before you submitted that.

  516. Ge0rG

    the coloring algorithm?

  517. Ge0rG

    It was discussed in here several times over the last months

  518. dwd

    Yes, I know.

  519. dwd

    I was demonstrating the difference between Gajim and another XMPP client, and Gajim colourizes - I mentioned there was this algorithm knocking about as well.

  520. Ge0rG

    I hope that the proto-XEP will ignite discussion. Hope dies last.

  521. Ge0rG

    I think that jonasw is aiming at a Ph.D. in sensible XMPP client design.

  522. stefandxm

    iam missing the [] Compensate for f.lux on the site

  523. jonasw

    stefandxm, compensating for flux/redshift is definitely out of scope ;-)

  524. jonasw

    (a) that’s time dependent and (b) tricky

  525. daniel has left

  526. Ge0rG

    I think that f.lux compensation should be done display-wide, not in an XMPP client.

  527. jonasw

    dwd, ha, so I can count on your +1 ;)

  528. Ge0rG

    Unless there is an XMPP client that can go back into 1955.

  529. stefandxm

    am i the only one finding it confusing to talk about IM UIs as "xmpp clients"? :)

  530. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: those are different things!

  531. mimi89999 has left

  532. Ge0rG

    Jabber client is the right term, of course.

  533. stefandxm

    i remember the discussion from the summit this spring. i still find it confusing to have a protocol organ for a message bus discussing/voting on UI matters

  534. jonasw

    re-instate the JSF to discuss IM-specific matters for maximum confusion!!!k

  535. emxp has joined

  536. mimi89999 has left

  537. stefandxm

    and i cannot see how the expertise can be shared between systems protocols and ui design

  538. stefandxm

    so far ivent met a single proffesional ui designer than can do system protocols and vice versa

  539. Guus has left

  540. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: which is a very pointed explanations of why all Jabber clients suck.

  541. stefandxm

    i think the clients can be good but not all uis

  542. stefandxm

    adium has a great ui but sucky xmpp client

  543. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: I'm not a professional UI designer, but I know a little bit about UX and I am pondering about jabber client design a great deal of time

  544. uc has joined

  545. daniel has joined

  546. Ge0rG

    jonasw: "Jabber Software Alliance" or "Business Jabber Alliance" or some such.

  547. stefandxm

    swift im has a horrid ui but a great xmpp client

  548. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: now you made me curious, what's wrong with swift?

  549. stefandxm

    it only supports one account and its ugly :)

  550. Zash

    Incorrect and subjective.

  551. stefandxm

    incorrect in what way?

  552. Zash

    It supports multiple accounts

  553. stefandxm


  554. Zash

    Hidden away tho

  555. stefandxm


  556. stefandxm

    haha speaking of uis

  557. Zash

    Command line flag iirc

  558. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: I think that "ugly" is highly subjective and only a very small influence on the UX

  559. stefandxm

    it doesnt have a "help" either

  560. jonasw

    I’m confident that JabberCat will be awesome ;-)

  561. stefandxm

    georg, an ui that doesnt follow the native look will always be ugly in my book

  562. jonasw

    +1 stefandxm

  563. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: web is the new native.

  564. Zash

    stefandxm: no --help ? whats this then https://q.zash.se/f445feffd14b.txt

  565. stefandxm

    zash was talking about the ui

  566. jonasw

    Ge0rG, noooo

  567. Zash

    stefandxm: I think the goal is to be simple enough to not need a built in help

  568. Ge0rG

    my point is: the look of widgets is secondary to proper usability.

  569. stefandxm

    Number of accounts to open windows for (unsupported)

  570. stefandxm

    multiple windows?

  571. stefandxm

    not a shared contact list?

  572. jonasw

    Ge0rG, the look yes, but the feel not

  573. Ge0rG

    jonasw: true.

  574. Ge0rG

    But I'd rather have a Qt-based client on windows that doesn't drop messages than a native one that can't fulfil basic IM expectations

  575. jonasw

    Qt is close to native on any platform

  576. jonasw

    closer than any web client at least

  577. Zash

    jonasw: Always close, but always feeling slightly off

  578. jonasw

    Zash, but over the uncanny valley, I thnik

  579. daniel has left

  580. Zash

    As someone who grew up with GTK+, all Qt apps look off to me

  581. stefandxm

    on linux iam ok with Qt looking app. on osx its horrid

  582. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: I also think that multi-account support is a power user feature only needed by 1% of Zimpies.

  583. stefandxm

    georg, i dont think tahts true :)

  584. Wiktor has left

  585. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: but having support for multiple accounts makes the UI much more complex

  586. moparisthebest

    if you really need it you can always use a xmpp->xmpp transport right? :)

  587. stefandxm

    i dont know anyone that has only one im account

  588. jonasw

    Ge0rG, multi-account is tricky, but I think I found a reasonable UX solution for jabbercat

  589. stefandxm

    Ge0rG, sure. but adium does it neatly

  590. jonasw

    stefandxm, I know a lot, all my non-nerd friends

  591. daniel has joined

  592. lovetox has joined

  593. stefandxm

    jonasw, they dont have google etc?

  594. SouL

    What? I feel I'm a normie now, with just one XMPP account.

  595. jonasw

    stefandxm, google doesn’t have any usable XMPP anymore

  596. stefandxm

    i run google hangout, work jid, private jid and icq through one im client

  597. stefandxm

    jonasw, yes they do

  598. SouL

    All my gmail contacts appear as offline

  599. stefandxm

    not mine

  600. stefandxm

    i use it daily

  601. SouL

    How? Is still usable on the gmail page?

  602. Ge0rG

    SouL: gmail f***ed xmpp.

  603. stefandxm

    SouL, yes and with hangout app (included in android)

  604. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: you are the power user.

  605. SouL

    Whaat? That's new to me.

  606. stefandxm

    its been like this since ever

  607. SouL

    Your contacts had to do something, or what, stefandxm?

  608. stefandxm

    they never removed xmpp support

  609. jonasw

    SouL, don’t let yourself be fooled, gmail federation is broken-ish

  610. stefandxm

    SouL, no

  611. stefandxm

    federation is not working no

  612. Ge0rG

    I need a gmail-xmpp using volunteer please, for testing https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim/issues/201

  613. stefandxm

    but its still xmpp and works great for chatting

  614. Zash

    I may have a multilple accounts, but I only use one, the rest are for testing and stuff.

  615. Zash

    Most of my friends only have one too.

  616. SouL

    Ah man, there's no federation... Then there's nothing new :)

  617. stefandxm

    Ge0rG, you may add me if you want. stefan@skogome.net

  618. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: is that gmail-hosted?

  619. stefandxm


  620. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: thanks, give me a minute to boot my other android.

  621. stefandxm

    but you need to be friends

  622. stefandxm

    so its traditional xmpp

  623. Ge0rG

    stefandxm: I don't have a mac unfortunately, so I can't check adium.

  624. stefandxm

    pidgin also works

  625. stefandxm

    i run pidgin on linux for same reasons as i run adium on mac

  626. Ge0rG

    but pidgin!

  627. stefandxm

    pidgin is great ui. but sucky xmpp client =)

  628. Ge0rG

    all xmpp clients suck. Especially the Jabber ones.

  629. Zash

    Which one(s) suck less?

  630. Ge0rG

    mutt. Oh, wait.

  631. stefandxm

    i havent been able to start swift im on linux

  632. stefandxm

    dependency hell

  633. jonasw

    Ge0rG, mutt with that french xmpp<->imap gateway?

  634. stefandxm

    (and it didnt compile)

  635. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I don't even want to imagine _that_.

  636. jonasw


  637. jonasw

    Ge0rG, heard of deltachat?

  638. jonasw

    .oO(deltachat in front of imap<->xmpp gateway :-O)

  639. Holger

    stefandxm: https://github.com/swift/swift/blob/master/BuildTools/InstallSwiftDependencies.sh

  640. Zash

    IMAP is pretty cool, why else would they be trying to kill and replace it with some JSON garbage?

  641. Holger

    ... works for me.

  642. jonasw

    for extra fun

  643. stefandxm

    Holger, i dont use any of those distros

  644. stefandxm

    so would give Unsupported system if i tried

  645. daniel has left

  646. stefandxm

    or wait, it had a || there

  647. jonasw

    I always find it odd when people who use interesting exotic distributions complain about difficulties building and installing software :)

  648. stefandxm

    it might work now then

  649. stefandxm

    but last time it didnt

  650. stefandxm

    jonasw, why?

  651. moparisthebest

    wait there is an imap/xmpp gateway?

  652. stefandxm

    jonasw, i think the more you know about linux the more problem you will have with dependencies

  653. Zash

    I must know nothing then.

  654. moparisthebest

    stefandxm, just curious, which distro?

  655. stefandxm

    linux mint kde on this one

  656. stefandxm

    quite horrible tbh

  657. moparisthebest

    that's just ubuntu with some extra repos pretty sure?

  658. stefandxm

    but i gave up on debian experimental after the third broken upgrade in a year >D

  659. stefandxm

    moparisthebest, true and not true

  660. moparisthebest

    oh, actualy, Holger 's script has a LinuxMint entry, same as Ubuntu

  661. stefandxm

    i know

  662. stefandxm

    i commentented on it above :)

  663. stefandxm

    but linux mint versions are not interchangeable

  664. stefandxm

    same as with debian of course

  665. Zash

    Isn't the purpose of Debian experimental to be horribly broken?

  666. tux


  667. stefandxm

    sure is

  668. stefandxm

    but only way to get updated packages

  669. tux has relatively good experience with debian unstable, if you know what you are doing

  670. moparisthebest

    yea, I used Kubuntu for about 10 years but 16.04 broke everything so bad I switched to Arch and have been rather happy with that for a year

  671. moparisthebest

    breaks less than debian unstable from what I gather, but still newest everything

  672. stefandxm

    tux, me too.. for a long while =)

  673. Ge0rG

    there are three flavors of debian: rusty, stale and broken.

  674. daniel has joined

  675. SouL

    Did you consider KDE Neon, moparisthebest?

  676. tux

    by the way: I just verified that a current PSI+ can be built with Debian Stable. I'll do a backport pacakge in the near future.

  677. jonasw

    tux, you’re a debian developer?

  678. moparisthebest

    SouL, ah KDE neon, I tried it and it was still a bit too broken, and that was before they discovered they didn't enable PGP package signing and also left their package repo open for anyone to upload files to... :)

  679. moparisthebest

    SouL, that would be https://www.kde.org/info/security/advisory-20161114-1.txt

  680. tux

    jonasw: nope, never really got around to do that, but I know how to build debian packages

  681. SouL

    moparisthebest, I downloaded it two months ago and it is what I'm using, since I was using Kubuntu too, before.

  682. moparisthebest

    did they start signing packages with PGP yet?

  683. moparisthebest

    otherwise I'd stay far away just for security reasons

  684. moparisthebest

    glad it works well now though, I tried around July 2016

  685. emxp has joined

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  689. intosi has joined

  690. Ge0rG

    Gmail is weird. it reflects my own presence to me.

  691. daniel has left

  692. daniel has joined

  693. Holger

    Isn't that standard behavior?

  694. Ge0rG

    Holger: I mean the presence of my own full JID, not of my other sessions

  695. tim@boese-ban.de has left

  696. Holger

    Ge0rG: "The user's server MUST also send the presence stanza to all of the user's available resources (including the resource that generated the presence notification in the first place)."

  697. Martin has left

  698. Holger

    Or am I missing something?

  699. Ge0rG

    Holger: whoops. Then it's just the first time I notice this. Thanks for clarifying

  700. nyco

    hey SCAM team members, we have a booth at the POSS, Paris Open Source Summit

  701. nyco


  702. nyco

    the stand will be on V29

  703. nyco

    Guus, Daniel...

  704. nyco

    europeans, join!

  705. jjrh has left

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  713. tux

    Interesting, this afternoon I thought about how nowadays one must also take the hash colour into account when creating a nick name, then I thought about how to ensure that every colouring scheme is identical and now there is this: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/colors.html

  714. tux

    Though I have mixed feelings about the color inversion - maybe have to try this out on a demonstrator.

  715. Flow has joined

  716. tux

    Or maybe the luminosity (Y) should be adapted instead.

  717. tux

    Is it customary to reply to the XMPP extension proposals?

  718. jonasw

    tux, sure, feel free

  719. jonasw

    adapting luminosity would be more a heuristic, mixing with the inverse does work, I have sapmles

  720. tux


  721. jonasw

    (esp. adapting Y doesn’t work for coloured backgrounds)

  722. tux

    I just felt more natural to do these conversions in the YCbCr colour space

  723. jonasw

    that’s quite tricky I’m afraid

  724. jonasw

    because YCbCr is not additive

  725. jonasw

    RGB is, which is why the inversion-and-mixing thing works

  726. tux


  727. intosi has left

  728. intosi has joined

  729. tux

    jonasw: in 5.4 the formulas don't give values for KR and KB

  730. jonasw

    tux, no mixing: https://sotecware.net/files/persistent/colors-xep/unmixed-bg.svg mixing: https://sotecware.net/files/persistent/colors-xep/mixed-bg.svg

  731. stefandxm

    i am curious when this is wanted at all?

  732. stefandxm

    does people want nick name colorization in chats?

  733. jonasw

    stefandxm, yes, they do

  734. tux uses that feature

  735. jonasw

    and also for avatars its great

  736. Zash

    Are there any algorithms for identifying words with similar 'shape'?

  737. stefandxm

    wont it just be a huge christmas tree?

  738. tux

    jonasw: I see, thanks for the sample :)

  739. stefandxm

    i remember i tried it on irc back in the days and it was dreadful

  740. jonasw

    Zash, I doubt it

  741. jonasw

    stefandxm, the xep also specifies that there MUST be a switch to turn it off, so...

  742. moparisthebest

    stefandxm, well persistence and standardization would help, all my clients color nicks, but differently across clients and even in the same chat, sometimes

  743. jonasw

    tux, you can mention the missing constants on-list

  744. tux

    stefandxm: Setting a good luminosity is key.

  745. jonasw

    they’re easy to find anywhere on the internet though

  746. tux

    jonasw: ack

  747. Zash

    stefandxm: looks fine to me: https://www.zash.se/upload/28QwkNpsRR5s.png

  748. stefandxm

    thats horrible to me :)

  749. tux

    maybe, but in a "we want to ensure everybody does the same thing" specification they should be mentioned.

  750. stefandxm

    because when you apply highlights and notifications they get drowned our have to be even more shouty (as in your example)

  751. moparisthebest

    so yesterday, to avoid highlighting them needlessly I'll change the name, gajim set both Buus and Be0rG to the same color and on glance I was confusing them

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  754. jonasw

    moparisthebest, with XEP-XXXX, you can at least be sure that it will always happen, if it happens ;)

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  756. jonasw

    doesn’t happen though, they have very different xorred crc32 values

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  766. moparisthebest

    jonasw, that might be interesting, have sample color lists for say, this muc?

  767. moparisthebest

    or maybe #archlinux on freenode, some concrete real-life examples

  768. jonasw

    moparisthebest, can do

  769. jonasw

    may do soon

  770. jonasw

    I have it implemented for avatar surrogates in my client, but I obviously can’t easily show you a screenshot of my roster ...

  771. Ge0rG

    We really need some easy-to-setup test account with fake roster entries and fake presence.

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  773. tux

    The discussion on whether there should be nick coloring is not really relevant, though. The thing is happening and the best reaction is IMHO to give it a good direction early on. (As with the proposed XEP.)

  774. moparisthebest

    also I'm a little colorblind so I hesitate to comment on actual colors, but I'll be able to tell if they look different enough for me, and others can look as well

  775. tux

    The decision is only if there should be a common scheme or if things just go wild.

  776. moparisthebest

    well, things are going wild right now

  777. jonasw

    moparisthebest, uuuuh

  778. moparisthebest

    this optionally adds a common scheme :)

  779. jonasw

    if you’d be willing to see how the color blind profiles work, let me know

  780. jonasw

    if you’d be willing to see how well the color blind profiles work, let me know

  781. jonasw

    until now I only have one sample (with a red/green blind person)

  782. moparisthebest

    sure jonasw , I'm not sure what I have is exactly called, but I see like, certain browns as army green, not positive

  783. jonasw

    that could be a light red/green defiency

  784. jonasw

    we should talk later, I’ll be off for half an our or something

  785. moparisthebest

    yep, I looked up the exact word one day but have forgotten :)

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  830. jonasw

    moparisthebest, https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/users.svg

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  834. jonasw

    moparisthebest, refreshed with three color columns, which are: plain, red/green-blindness corrected, blue-blindness corrected

  835. pep.

    I'm blue/purple-ish!

  836. pep.

    jonasw, how many colors is this?

  837. mimi89999

    jonasw: I don't get that thing...

  838. pep.

    jonasw, why do you care for color-blindness? It's just to quickly identify people right? you don't care if color-blind people don't see the same color as others?

  839. pep.

    It's not like people were going to compare colors

  840. pep.

    Or am I missing something?

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  842. intosi

    Colour rotating nickname sets, that will be a thing.

  843. mimi89999

    intosi: 👍

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  849. jonasw

    pep., the issue is that the deficiencies affect different ranges of the color space differently, so we can do better by avoiding those ranges

  850. jonasw

    pep., I don’t understand the question "how many colors"

  851. jonasw

    it’s as many colors as there are names

  852. jonasw

    up to 2^16 (due to folding crc32 into an unsigned 16 bit integer)

  853. pep.


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  859. jonasw

    mimi89999, what’s your question?

  860. mimi89999

    jonasw: What is that svg about?

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  862. jonasw

    mimi89999, it shows the colors the ProtoXEP which was announced on standards@ generates for the nicknames in this room

  863. jonasw

    in three variants, from left to right: "normal", "corrected for red/green-deficiency", "corrected for blue-deficiency"

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  878. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I agree. I already thought about how to set that up. maybe some prosody docker image with pre-configured accounts

  879. jonasw

    I have a testbed, but it’s rather small, not large enough to effectively test the coloring things

  880. tux

    How about scraping sth like Twitter for a nickname set?

  881. SouL

    Aren't there libraries like faker for python? For stuff like that

  882. moparisthebest

    jonasw, thanks so, those columns, and again, I don't know if I'm seeing what you are seeing

  883. jonasw

    SouL, you still need to set up accounts etc.

  884. moparisthebest

    the middle column, is mostly pink/orange

  885. jonasw

    and add clients

  886. moparisthebest

    jonasw, you, kev, la|r|ma have *identical* orange colors, in the middle column

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  888. moparisthebest

    is that what you see or no

  889. jonasw

    yes, that’s in all columns the case

  890. moparisthebest

    oh, right

  891. jonasw

    doesn’t matter that much really

  892. moparisthebest

    the middle seems the worst to me though, almost everyone is pink

  893. jonasw

    moparisthebest, interesting, and possibly bad

  894. moparisthebest

    is that what you see or not? :)

  895. jonasw


  896. jonasw

    there are some oranges in there

  897. moparisthebest

    it's subtely different shades of pink, but, mostly pink

  898. jonasw

    moparisthebest, reload

  899. moparisthebest

    maybe better, I was going to say all shades of green, but that's mostly at top

  900. moparisthebest

    no actually I think that is far better

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  902. jonasw

    I think too

  903. moparisthebest

    again just for my eyes might be worse for everyone else who knows

  904. jonasw

    no, I think that makes sense

  905. jonasw

    in case of doubt is green easier on the eyes compared to pink

  906. jonasw

    simply because one is evolutionary more used to green tones and we can distinguish more shades of green

  907. moparisthebest

    above my head, seems to make sense though

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  909. moparisthebest

    out of those 3 profiles I prefer middle for sure, I preferred left before

  910. jonasw

    moparisthebest, prefer it visually, or from being able to distinguish colors?

  911. moparisthebest

    seems more distinguishable yes

  912. jonasw

    moparisthebest, great :-)

  913. jonasw


  914. moparisthebest

    the left has a bunch of 2 or 3 in a row of almost identical shades

  915. jonasw

    can you reload once more?

  916. moparisthebest

    more blue-ish than green-ish ?

  917. jonasw

    maybe, not sure

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  919. jonasw

    anyways, thanks for your input

  920. moparisthebest

    Bunneh, and next two, I hate highlighting random people

  921. moparisthebest

    the green sticks out more there, to me

  922. jonasw

    more than the shades on the left?

  923. moparisthebest

    no not in that case

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  925. moparisthebest

    it does seem to have groups of the same color in a row, like groups of 2 and sometimes 3

  926. moparisthebest

    for alphabetical names that's bad, not sure if there is a solution though

  927. jonasw

    moparisthebest, I thnik that may be a property of CRC32 :/

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  929. moparisthebest

    jonasw, what if you used something else, md5, Adler-32, Fletcher-32 ?

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  931. jonasw

    adler32 is worse on those short inputs

  932. jonasw

    (tried it)

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  934. jonasw

    18:43:19 jonasw> crytographic hash functinos are generally a bit better 18:44:36 jonasw> but people complain that those are hard to implement / have high overhead 18:44:50 jonasw> and even in those cases there are still close nicknames which aren’t ideal

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  939. jonasw

    ahh, salting the CRC32 with 256 bits does something good

  940. jonasw

    moparisthebest, care to reload?

  941. moparisthebest

    I'm not sure md5 is hard or has high overhead :/

  942. moparisthebest

    yea hang on

  943. moparisthebest

    I think that's worse, look at tu-x and next 3

  944. moparisthebest

    next 2 I mean, also it still has the every few being the same

  945. Zash

    That graph says otherwise ;)

  946. jonasw

    moparisthebest, I don’t think that’s a bad thing in that special case. they differ by their first letter, so your brain generally can distinguish them well

  947. jonasw

    moparisthebest, re performance: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/9n701UwrIuU2NFuTexy7rFpu3Auf7zbQlVsEyFTVqAM.png

  948. jonasw

    so md5/sha1 are an order of magnitude slower than CRC32 on those input sizes

  949. moparisthebest

    are we talking about the difference in 0.01s and 0.02s for all participants in a typically sized muc ?

  950. moparisthebest

    because, who cares

  951. jonasw

    moparisthebest, first, implementations may not always be able to cache the colors (daniel brought that up)

  952. moparisthebest

    I think it might even be less than that?

  953. jonasw

    it’s a factor of three in that region

  954. jonasw

    lowering slowly to 2.5 at the right edge of the reasonable range for nicknames and such

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  956. moparisthebest

    3 times slower than a millionth of a second?

  957. Guus

    Link Mauve, you here?

  958. daniel

    Well maybe we should try md5. If it looks better we might want to live with it

  959. jonasw

    daniel, it does, but salting CRC32 with 64 bytes does the trick

  960. jonasw

    and is still fast

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  962. moparisthebest

    unless I'm reading the graph wrong, 3/1,000,000s is technically 3x slower than 1/1,000,000s, but still well within the no one cares range

  963. jonasw

    moparisthebest, reload for md5-based colors

  964. jonasw

    I don’t think it does a lot of good

  965. moparisthebest

    hmm disappointing I agree it's basically the same issue

  966. moparisthebest

    sha1 doesn't do better either?

  967. moparisthebest

    is it not fixable based on low bytecount or can we just throw algorithms at it until one sticks :)

  968. jonasw

    moparisthebest, I think it’s not fixable due to the low amount of colours we can distinguish

  969. jonasw

    but indeed, we need to specify a salt input for CRC32, that improves things massively

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  1030. tux

    jonasw: is there a reason you're using crc instead of sha?

  1031. tux

    Ah, nvw. Just read your answer to the question.

  1032. tux

    Though I think that the processing time is not relevant here.

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  1038. moparisthebest

    tux: I don't think processing speed matters either here but md5 also wasn't any better so :(

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  1048. Link Mauve

    Guus, now I am.

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