Did I get this right: Psi(+) does not support OMEMO because this kind of encryption is forbitten in Russia?
tux
https://github.com/psi-im/plugins/issues/10
tux
*forbidden
zinid
no
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mimi89999
What?
zinid
rion is full of shit there
tux
So the real reason is more the lack of willing developers ...
zinid
yes
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ack
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ralphm
hi
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Guus
Board meeting?
Ge0rG
ETA -5 min?
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Guus
I got Ralphs "hi" after my last message, but according to Conversations, it was sent more minutes ago?
moparisthebest
Guus, according to gajim his "hi' was 5 seconds before your "Board meeting?" message
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Guus
My client said 5 minutes
ralphm
Weird
ralphm
I sent it at 18:05:06
Zash
This week on the XSF Board; time travel.
ralphm
(CEST)
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Ge0rG
Guus: your message was delayed, so probably you were not properly synced to the MUC at that time.
moparisthebest
my conversations and gajim both agree with ralphm's time, I think your client is messed up Guus :)
Martin
I'm here, not sure who else is…? Also, yeah my client's doing something odd
Ge0rG
Still, board meeting?
ralphm
I haven't detected quorum yet
MattJ
I'm here
ralphm
17 minutes in
ralphm
Are there any pressing matters this week?
MattJ
I don't know how pressing it is - Guus requested approval of his logo fix
Ge0rG
My issues don't have a deadline, so feel free to skip board meetings until the next re-election.
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ralphm
Ge0rG: thanks for that
Ge0rG
ralphm: I'm sorry. Venting at the present board members about the absence of the non-present ones is highly inappropriate.
ralphm
Ge0rG: Well, I've been absent quite a few times, too. Doing volunteer work is hard some times, and so is attending (weekly) meetings. That said, I don't feel that we are doing a bad job in general. Most of the work in this organisation is around protocols and that's why we have Editors and Council.
MattJ
FWIW, I feel like we're doing a bad job
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Ge0rG
ralphm: I think I'm repeating another person's point, but it's up to the board to decide how often to meet, and at which time.
Guus
I've written at length about this, without response. Cannot elaborate again now, driving.
ralphm
MattJ: ok
SamWhited
There have been several times where people have needed things from the board and the board did not show up for several weeks in a row. That feels like a problem to me.
SamWhited
(or rather, where a small subset of the board didn't show up; the people in this room tend to be the ones that are on top of things I think)
Ge0rG
The last board meeting was very intense and very productive, though. It didn't cover all the points, but still.
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Guus
Agreed
ralphm
SamWhited: sure, attendance can be a bit spotty, and from experience especially around summer leading into the autumn.
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ralphm
Last week was indeed nicely productive
Guus
Theta now is quorum, please meet?
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ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
0. Welcome + Agenda
ralphm
Hi all
MattJ
Hi ralphm
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Martin
Ahoy
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ralphm
I understand one of the topics is Guus' request to change the XMPP logo.
ralphm
anything else pressing?
Guus
See trello
ralphm
Guus: thank you, but that's not what I asked
Martin
There is a trademark question on Trello we didn't get to last week
ralphm
Ok
Ge0rG
and the SPAM WG question
ralphm
Let's see how far we get.
ralphm
1. XMPP Logo
MattJ
+1 to Guus's changes
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ralphm
I know there's been some differing opinions on this and if Board can decide on this.
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Guus
Kev is -1, most others that expressef opinion +1
Martin
I'm OK with Guus' changes
ralphm
Wasn't the logo initially voted upon by the membership?
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Guus
I'm suggesting a small improvement, not a new logo.
ralphm
Guus: I don't see the difference, to be honest, procedurally, I mean
ralphm
I don't see a need to change the logo myself, but I'd like to make sure that we do it right.
Guus
ralphm: original vote if any was between different styles
moparisthebest
the email went out to the membership, presumably everyone who cared already commented?
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ralphm
moparisthebest: that's not the way things work in foundations in general. Either Board can decide, or the membership in a general meeting.
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ralphm
In the mean time, I've been trying to find background in how this logo came to be, but haven't yet found the details.
Guus
ralphm: it is in my pr
Guus
Including feedback of original designer
moparisthebest
if you don't know the right way to do it, just do it, and if anyone complains worry about it then?
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ralphm
Guus: yes, I saw that
ralphm
I meant that some of the links in the e-mail threads there are dead and I couldn't get all the context.
ralphm
I'm +0 on this change and I would like to request the two other directors to vote on this, too.
ralphm
2. Trademark Policy Fees
ralphm
I read the card on Trello. My question is: for which application is this a problem that we need to fix?
ralphm
Is this about the fee for last week's approved application?
Ge0rG
ralphm: no, it's about potential applications that are scared away by the Trademark
ralphm
So there are no concrete cases about people not applying because of this fee?
Ge0rG
ralphm: not as far as I know.
Ge0rG
ralphm: obviously, there is no way to know about all the people who haven't applied because they got scared away.
ralphm
MattJ, Martin do you see this as a problem we need to fix?
ralphm
Ge0rG: to be honest, if I saw a fee that was inhibiting, I'd try to ask what's up with that
Ge0rG
ralphm: I've heard from many people, mainly from the OSS movement, that Trademarks Are Evil and that Jabber Is Evil etc. and I want to streamline the process as far as possible.
ralphm
It is not that we *need* the fee itself, but one of its (initial) functions was deterring frivolous applications, i think.
MattJ
To be honest this still seems reasonable to me
Ge0rG
We have effectively deterred most applications.
ralphm
I'm not sure if people that think that Trademarks are evil and by extension the Jabber mark, will start using the name if the fee is $0
Ge0rG
ralphm: I'm not sure about that either. I only have a slight hope.
ralphm
It is still a trade mark
Ge0rG
Yes :(
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ralphm
I have seen two out of three present directors not seeing a need to change this, so I have to decline the request for change at this time.
ralphm
Martin?
Ge0rG
ralphm: is your position that there is nothing we can do to revive the Jabber term?
ralphm
not at all
Martin
I agree with you ralphm: it's still a trademark, and we can always approach/waive it on a per-case basis
Ge0rG
Martin: the board has to decide about applications on a per-case basis anyway.
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ralphm
Ge0rG: I fact, I strongly believe it is possible to start using the Jabber mark for a marketing effort to attract people using XMPP-based chat. I do think, though, it would be good for such an effort to include the people managing the jabber.org service, and it also doesn't necessarily need to happen through the XSF.
Ge0rG
ralphm: I believe that as a prerequisite, we need to simplify the trademark usage guidelines as far as possible, and that removing the fee is a useful step in that direction
ralphm
I disagree
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Ge0rG
ralphm: with which parts of my statement?
ralphm
all of it
ralphm
in the interest of time, moving on
ralphm
3. SPAM working group
ralphm
Was this meant as a request to form a SIG?
ralphm
Martin: I see you added this, so I assume you know. But I think what should happen is that somebody writes a XEP for this.
Ge0rG
I'm not sure what the formal type of group is. I'm looking for a closed-membership group that can coordinate and devise a strategy before going public.
Martin
Dangerous assumption. Given most don't have access to add cards in Trello, I added it on request.
MattJ
I'll note that there was some concern (I don't remember who from) about the group being closed
ralphm
yeah, that bugs me too
jonasw
I think discussing anti-spam techniques publicly is not necessarily a good idea
ralphm
sure
MattJ
The problem is that if they aren't open, they can't be implemented by operators
ralphm
Right
MattJ
Unless we form a small "special" federation of operators
moparisthebest
it's just an arms race, discussing in private will at best delay them a bit, at least in public you can come up with things that can't be evaded
MattJ
If that's going to happen, operators are free to do that, but I don't know if that's something that should/needs to involve the XSF resources
ralphm
which doesn't require any XSF involvement (same as the operators list doesn't)
Ge0rG
I'd like to have a small closed group for testing and strategy, that communicates and provides hints to other operators in a semi-public way
moparisthebest
doesn't sound very federated
ralphm
Ge0rG: right, so I don't think you need the XSF for doing that
Ge0rG
ralphm: I hoped to get XSF blessing at least ;)
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ralphm
Ge0rG: like XMPP, the community is federated, we don't need the XSF to be at the nexus of it all
SamWhited
If this group is using XSF infrastructure (servers, mailing lists, etc.) I would personally like it to be public. I would want to follow along.
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ralphm
Ge0rG: you seem to assume this in all of the things you talk about, but I think a better approach is to find like-minded people and just start doing things
ralphm
The operators list is a great place to start this
MattJ
I agree with Ralph. And count me in as a like-minded person (who has some non-public anti-spam projects)
ralphm
yay
MattJ
I just don't think the XSF being involved in such a group is necessary or a good thing
ralphm
So looking at the clock, I'm going to close this
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MattJ
But if that group ever needed something from the XSF, we can discuss that
ralphm
4. Next Meeting
ralphm
+1W?
Martin
+1W is ok with me
ralphm
MattJ: indeed
ralphm
5. Close
ralphm
Thanks all, sorry about starting late.
Ge0rG
Thanks very much for the feedback.
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MattJ
Thanks ralphm :)
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ralphm
I also forgot to ask someone to write minutes :-(
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MattJ
I can go over the log and send some out
ralphm
MattJ: ☺
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Guus
Tx for extended meeting
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jonasw
+1
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Zash
MattJ: Can you explain what the deal is with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#example-23 ?
It returns the actually applied preferences, which may be different. that’s less racy and less RTT than requiring the client to query it again after setting
Zash
There's still the race of another resource changing stuff between your iq-get and -set
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MattJ
Zash, we have that race all over XMPP
Zash
MattJ: Rosters and blocking would like to have a word with you
MattJ
You think there's no race there? What?
Zash
It'll tell you if something changes
MattJ
I agree that a push method for preferences may be (have been?) nice
Zash
And those also deal in deltas, not the complete things.
MattJ
But that doesn't solve the race in any way
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Zash
What exact race?
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MattJ
You'll never know if another resource has a conflicting change in flight, or a push is already in-flight to you
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Zash
MattJ: The mam-prefs fixes that?
MattJ
No, I'm saying that it's no worse
Zash
And you'll notice eventually if there was a roster or blocking thing in flight.
Zash
You *could* fix that by having a reference to the current version (as you see it)
Zash
And then you can build a blockchain on that!
MattJ
That's why I said push would potentially be nice
MattJ
But it doesn't solve a real problem in any way
Zash
It's already an established pattern
MattJ
There's little difference between push vs. pull
MattJ
I agree, in hindsight maybe adopting the same model would have been better
MattJ
It's a little more complex, but clients are used to it (well, they should be)
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Zash
MattJ: Was that in the very earliest drafts? Or, how could I have missed it all this time?
Zash
I remember asking why it wasn't using the common push pattern at some point, but not having seen that it reflected the data back in iq-set.
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MattJ
afaik it's always been this way
moparisthebest
It's almost as if the various xeps were written by different people :)
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Zash
jonasw: found the thing that originally produced xeps.xml: https://q.zash.se/ef274a7e18fc.txt (grep for botsFile)