XSF Discussion - 2017-09-20

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  83. edhelas mathieui thanks!
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  220. tux Did I get this right: Psi(+) does not support OMEMO because this kind of encryption is forbitten in Russia?
  221. tux https://github.com/psi-im/plugins/issues/10
  222. tux *forbidden
  223. zinid no
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  225. mimi89999 What?
  226. zinid rion is full of shit there
  227. tux So the real reason is more the lack of willing developers ...
  228. zinid yes
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  230. tux ack
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  365. ralphm hi
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  367. Guus Board meeting?
  368. Ge0rG ETA -5 min?
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  372. Guus I got Ralphs "hi" after my last message, but according to Conversations, it was sent more minutes ago?
  373. moparisthebest Guus, according to gajim his "hi' was 5 seconds before your "Board meeting?" message
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  375. Guus My client said 5 minutes
  376. ralphm Weird
  377. ralphm I sent it at 18:05:06
  378. Zash This week on the XSF Board; time travel.
  379. ralphm (CEST)
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  382. Ge0rG Guus: your message was delayed, so probably you were not properly synced to the MUC at that time.
  383. moparisthebest my conversations and gajim both agree with ralphm's time, I think your client is messed up Guus :)
  384. Martin I'm here, not sure who else is…? Also, yeah my client's doing something odd
  385. Ge0rG Still, board meeting?
  386. ralphm I haven't detected quorum yet
  387. MattJ I'm here
  388. ralphm 17 minutes in
  389. ralphm Are there any pressing matters this week?
  390. MattJ I don't know how pressing it is - Guus requested approval of his logo fix
  391. Ge0rG My issues don't have a deadline, so feel free to skip board meetings until the next re-election.
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  393. ralphm Ge0rG: thanks for that
  394. Ge0rG ralphm: I'm sorry. Venting at the present board members about the absence of the non-present ones is highly inappropriate.
  395. ralphm Ge0rG: Well, I've been absent quite a few times, too. Doing volunteer work is hard some times, and so is attending (weekly) meetings. That said, I don't feel that we are doing a bad job in general. Most of the work in this organisation is around protocols and that's why we have Editors and Council.
  396. MattJ FWIW, I feel like we're doing a bad job
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  399. Ge0rG ralphm: I think I'm repeating another person's point, but it's up to the board to decide how often to meet, and at which time.
  400. Guus I've written at length about this, without response. Cannot elaborate again now, driving.
  401. ralphm MattJ: ok
  402. SamWhited There have been several times where people have needed things from the board and the board did not show up for several weeks in a row. That feels like a problem to me.
  403. SamWhited (or rather, where a small subset of the board didn't show up; the people in this room tend to be the ones that are on top of things I think)
  404. Ge0rG The last board meeting was very intense and very productive, though. It didn't cover all the points, but still.
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  406. Guus Agreed
  407. ralphm SamWhited: sure, attendance can be a bit spotty, and from experience especially around summer leading into the autumn.
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  409. ralphm Last week was indeed nicely productive
  410. Guus Theta now is quorum, please meet?
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  413. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  414. ralphm Hi all
  415. MattJ Hi ralphm
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  417. Martin Ahoy
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  419. ralphm I understand one of the topics is Guus' request to change the XMPP logo.
  420. ralphm anything else pressing?
  421. Guus See trello
  422. ralphm Guus: thank you, but that's not what I asked
  423. Martin There is a trademark question on Trello we didn't get to last week
  424. ralphm Ok
  425. Ge0rG and the SPAM WG question
  426. ralphm Let's see how far we get.
  427. ralphm 1. XMPP Logo
  428. MattJ +1 to Guus's changes
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  430. ralphm I know there's been some differing opinions on this and if Board can decide on this.
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  435. Guus Kev is -1, most others that expressef opinion +1
  436. Martin I'm OK with Guus' changes
  437. ralphm Wasn't the logo initially voted upon by the membership?
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  439. Guus I'm suggesting a small improvement, not a new logo.
  440. ralphm Guus: I don't see the difference, to be honest, procedurally, I mean
  441. ralphm I don't see a need to change the logo myself, but I'd like to make sure that we do it right.
  442. Guus ralphm: original vote if any was between different styles
  443. moparisthebest the email went out to the membership, presumably everyone who cared already commented?
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  446. ralphm moparisthebest: that's not the way things work in foundations in general. Either Board can decide, or the membership in a general meeting.
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  448. ralphm In the mean time, I've been trying to find background in how this logo came to be, but haven't yet found the details.
  449. Guus ralphm: it is in my pr
  450. Guus Including feedback of original designer
  451. moparisthebest if you don't know the right way to do it, just do it, and if anyone complains worry about it then?
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  453. ralphm Guus: yes, I saw that
  454. ralphm I meant that some of the links in the e-mail threads there are dead and I couldn't get all the context.
  455. ralphm I'm +0 on this change and I would like to request the two other directors to vote on this, too.
  456. ralphm 2. Trademark Policy Fees
  457. ralphm I read the card on Trello. My question is: for which application is this a problem that we need to fix?
  458. ralphm Is this about the fee for last week's approved application?
  459. Ge0rG ralphm: no, it's about potential applications that are scared away by the Trademark
  460. ralphm So there are no concrete cases about people not applying because of this fee?
  461. Ge0rG ralphm: not as far as I know.
  462. Ge0rG ralphm: obviously, there is no way to know about all the people who haven't applied because they got scared away.
  463. ralphm MattJ, Martin do you see this as a problem we need to fix?
  464. ralphm Ge0rG: to be honest, if I saw a fee that was inhibiting, I'd try to ask what's up with that
  465. Ge0rG ralphm: I've heard from many people, mainly from the OSS movement, that Trademarks Are Evil and that Jabber Is Evil etc. and I want to streamline the process as far as possible.
  466. ralphm It is not that we *need* the fee itself, but one of its (initial) functions was deterring frivolous applications, i think.
  467. MattJ To be honest this still seems reasonable to me
  468. Ge0rG We have effectively deterred most applications.
  469. ralphm I'm not sure if people that think that Trademarks are evil and by extension the Jabber mark, will start using the name if the fee is $0
  470. Ge0rG ralphm: I'm not sure about that either. I only have a slight hope.
  471. ralphm It is still a trade mark
  472. Ge0rG Yes :(
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  475. ralphm I have seen two out of three present directors not seeing a need to change this, so I have to decline the request for change at this time.
  476. ralphm Martin?
  477. Ge0rG ralphm: is your position that there is nothing we can do to revive the Jabber term?
  478. ralphm not at all
  479. Martin I agree with you ralphm: it's still a trademark, and we can always approach/waive it on a per-case basis
  480. Ge0rG Martin: the board has to decide about applications on a per-case basis anyway.
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  483. ralphm Ge0rG: I fact, I strongly believe it is possible to start using the Jabber mark for a marketing effort to attract people using XMPP-based chat. I do think, though, it would be good for such an effort to include the people managing the jabber.org service, and it also doesn't necessarily need to happen through the XSF.
  484. Ge0rG ralphm: I believe that as a prerequisite, we need to simplify the trademark usage guidelines as far as possible, and that removing the fee is a useful step in that direction
  485. ralphm I disagree
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  489. Ge0rG ralphm: with which parts of my statement?
  490. ralphm all of it
  491. ralphm in the interest of time, moving on
  492. ralphm 3. SPAM working group
  493. ralphm Was this meant as a request to form a SIG?
  494. ralphm Martin: I see you added this, so I assume you know. But I think what should happen is that somebody writes a XEP for this.
  495. Ge0rG I'm not sure what the formal type of group is. I'm looking for a closed-membership group that can coordinate and devise a strategy before going public.
  496. Martin Dangerous assumption. Given most don't have access to add cards in Trello, I added it on request.
  497. MattJ I'll note that there was some concern (I don't remember who from) about the group being closed
  498. ralphm yeah, that bugs me too
  499. jonasw I think discussing anti-spam techniques publicly is not necessarily a good idea
  500. ralphm sure
  501. MattJ The problem is that if they aren't open, they can't be implemented by operators
  502. ralphm Right
  503. MattJ Unless we form a small "special" federation of operators
  504. moparisthebest it's just an arms race, discussing in private will at best delay them a bit, at least in public you can come up with things that can't be evaded
  505. MattJ If that's going to happen, operators are free to do that, but I don't know if that's something that should/needs to involve the XSF resources
  506. ralphm which doesn't require any XSF involvement (same as the operators list doesn't)
  507. Ge0rG I'd like to have a small closed group for testing and strategy, that communicates and provides hints to other operators in a semi-public way
  508. moparisthebest doesn't sound very federated
  509. ralphm Ge0rG: right, so I don't think you need the XSF for doing that
  510. Ge0rG ralphm: I hoped to get XSF blessing at least ;)
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  513. ralphm Ge0rG: like XMPP, the community is federated, we don't need the XSF to be at the nexus of it all
  514. SamWhited If this group is using XSF infrastructure (servers, mailing lists, etc.) I would personally like it to be public. I would want to follow along.
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  516. ralphm Ge0rG: you seem to assume this in all of the things you talk about, but I think a better approach is to find like-minded people and just start doing things
  517. ralphm The operators list is a great place to start this
  518. MattJ I agree with Ralph. And count me in as a like-minded person (who has some non-public anti-spam projects)
  519. ralphm yay
  520. MattJ I just don't think the XSF being involved in such a group is necessary or a good thing
  521. ralphm So looking at the clock, I'm going to close this
  522. Lance has joined
  523. MattJ But if that group ever needed something from the XSF, we can discuss that
  524. ralphm 4. Next Meeting
  525. ralphm +1W?
  526. Martin +1W is ok with me
  527. ralphm MattJ: indeed
  528. ralphm 5. Close
  529. ralphm Thanks all, sorry about starting late.
  530. Ge0rG Thanks very much for the feedback.
  531. ralphm bangs gavel
  532. MattJ Thanks ralphm :)
  533. Martin has left
  534. ralphm I also forgot to ask someone to write minutes :-(
  535. Lance has left
  536. MattJ I can go over the log and send some out
  537. ralphm MattJ: ☺
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  540. Guus Tx for extended meeting
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  542. jonasw +1
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  551. Zash MattJ: Can you explain what the deal is with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#example-23 ?
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  553. Zash iq-set returning stuff is pretty uncommon
  554. jonasw Zash, I find it logica
  555. jonasw Zash, I find it logical
  556. jonasw It returns the actually applied preferences, which may be different. that’s less racy and less RTT than requiring the client to query it again after setting
  557. Zash There's still the race of another resource changing stuff between your iq-get and -set
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  606. MattJ Zash, we have that race all over XMPP
  607. Zash MattJ: Rosters and blocking would like to have a word with you
  608. MattJ You think there's no race there? What?
  609. Zash It'll tell you if something changes
  610. MattJ I agree that a push method for preferences may be (have been?) nice
  611. Zash And those also deal in deltas, not the complete things.
  612. MattJ But that doesn't solve the race in any way
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  614. Zash What exact race?
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  616. MattJ You'll never know if another resource has a conflicting change in flight, or a push is already in-flight to you
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  618. Zash MattJ: The mam-prefs fixes that?
  619. MattJ No, I'm saying that it's no worse
  620. Zash And you'll notice eventually if there was a roster or blocking thing in flight.
  621. Zash You *could* fix that by having a reference to the current version (as you see it)
  622. Zash And then you can build a blockchain on that!
  623. MattJ That's why I said push would potentially be nice
  624. MattJ But it doesn't solve a real problem in any way
  625. Zash It's already an established pattern
  626. MattJ There's little difference between push vs. pull
  627. MattJ I agree, in hindsight maybe adopting the same model would have been better
  628. MattJ It's a little more complex, but clients are used to it (well, they should be)
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  633. Zash MattJ: Was that in the very earliest drafts? Or, how could I have missed it all this time?
  634. Zash I remember asking why it wasn't using the common push pattern at some point, but not having seen that it reflected the data back in iq-set.
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  637. MattJ afaik it's always been this way
  638. moparisthebest It's almost as if the various xeps were written by different people :)
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  671. Zash jonasw: found the thing that originally produced xeps.xml: https://q.zash.se/ef274a7e18fc.txt (grep for botsFile)
  672. Zash From the old all-in-one repo
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