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edhelas
mathieui thanks!
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tux
Did I get this right: Psi(+) does not support OMEMO because this kind of encryption is forbitten in Russia?
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tux
https://github.com/psi-im/plugins/issues/10
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tux
*forbidden
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zinid
no
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mimi89999
What?
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zinid
rion is full of shit there
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tux
So the real reason is more the lack of willing developers ...
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zinid
yes
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tux
ack
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ralphm
hi
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Guus
Board meeting?
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Ge0rG
ETA -5 min?
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Guus
I got Ralphs "hi" after my last message, but according to Conversations, it was sent more minutes ago?
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moparisthebest
Guus, according to gajim his "hi' was 5 seconds before your "Board meeting?" message
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Guus
My client said 5 minutes
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ralphm
Weird
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ralphm
I sent it at 18:05:06
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Zash
This week on the XSF Board; time travel.
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ralphm
(CEST)
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Ge0rG
Guus: your message was delayed, so probably you were not properly synced to the MUC at that time.
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moparisthebest
my conversations and gajim both agree with ralphm's time, I think your client is messed up Guus :)
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Martin
I'm here, not sure who else is…? Also, yeah my client's doing something odd
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Ge0rG
Still, board meeting?
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ralphm
I haven't detected quorum yet
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MattJ
I'm here
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ralphm
17 minutes in
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ralphm
Are there any pressing matters this week?
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MattJ
I don't know how pressing it is - Guus requested approval of his logo fix
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Ge0rG
My issues don't have a deadline, so feel free to skip board meetings until the next re-election.
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ralphm
Ge0rG: thanks for that
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Ge0rG
ralphm: I'm sorry. Venting at the present board members about the absence of the non-present ones is highly inappropriate.
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ralphm
Ge0rG: Well, I've been absent quite a few times, too. Doing volunteer work is hard some times, and so is attending (weekly) meetings. That said, I don't feel that we are doing a bad job in general. Most of the work in this organisation is around protocols and that's why we have Editors and Council.
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MattJ
FWIW, I feel like we're doing a bad job
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Ge0rG
ralphm: I think I'm repeating another person's point, but it's up to the board to decide how often to meet, and at which time.
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Guus
I've written at length about this, without response. Cannot elaborate again now, driving.
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ralphm
MattJ: ok
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SamWhited
There have been several times where people have needed things from the board and the board did not show up for several weeks in a row. That feels like a problem to me.
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SamWhited
(or rather, where a small subset of the board didn't show up; the people in this room tend to be the ones that are on top of things I think)
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Ge0rG
The last board meeting was very intense and very productive, though. It didn't cover all the points, but still.
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Guus
Agreed
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ralphm
SamWhited: sure, attendance can be a bit spotty, and from experience especially around summer leading into the autumn.
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ralphm
Last week was indeed nicely productive
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Guus
Theta now is quorum, please meet?
- ralphm bangs gavel
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ralphm
0. Welcome + Agenda
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ralphm
Hi all
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MattJ
Hi ralphm
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Martin
Ahoy
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ralphm
I understand one of the topics is Guus' request to change the XMPP logo.
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ralphm
anything else pressing?
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Guus
See trello
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ralphm
Guus: thank you, but that's not what I asked
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Martin
There is a trademark question on Trello we didn't get to last week
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ralphm
Ok
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Ge0rG
and the SPAM WG question
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ralphm
Let's see how far we get.
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ralphm
1. XMPP Logo
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MattJ
+1 to Guus's changes
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ralphm
I know there's been some differing opinions on this and if Board can decide on this.
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Guus
Kev is -1, most others that expressef opinion +1
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Martin
I'm OK with Guus' changes
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ralphm
Wasn't the logo initially voted upon by the membership?
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Guus
I'm suggesting a small improvement, not a new logo.
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ralphm
Guus: I don't see the difference, to be honest, procedurally, I mean
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ralphm
I don't see a need to change the logo myself, but I'd like to make sure that we do it right.
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Guus
ralphm: original vote if any was between different styles
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moparisthebest
the email went out to the membership, presumably everyone who cared already commented?
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ralphm
moparisthebest: that's not the way things work in foundations in general. Either Board can decide, or the membership in a general meeting.
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ralphm
In the mean time, I've been trying to find background in how this logo came to be, but haven't yet found the details.
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Guus
ralphm: it is in my pr
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Guus
Including feedback of original designer
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moparisthebest
if you don't know the right way to do it, just do it, and if anyone complains worry about it then?
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ralphm
Guus: yes, I saw that
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ralphm
I meant that some of the links in the e-mail threads there are dead and I couldn't get all the context.
-
ralphm
I'm +0 on this change and I would like to request the two other directors to vote on this, too.
-
ralphm
2. Trademark Policy Fees
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ralphm
I read the card on Trello. My question is: for which application is this a problem that we need to fix?
-
ralphm
Is this about the fee for last week's approved application?
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Ge0rG
ralphm: no, it's about potential applications that are scared away by the Trademark
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ralphm
So there are no concrete cases about people not applying because of this fee?
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Ge0rG
ralphm: not as far as I know.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: obviously, there is no way to know about all the people who haven't applied because they got scared away.
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ralphm
MattJ, Martin do you see this as a problem we need to fix?
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ralphm
Ge0rG: to be honest, if I saw a fee that was inhibiting, I'd try to ask what's up with that
-
Ge0rG
ralphm: I've heard from many people, mainly from the OSS movement, that Trademarks Are Evil and that Jabber Is Evil etc. and I want to streamline the process as far as possible.
-
ralphm
It is not that we *need* the fee itself, but one of its (initial) functions was deterring frivolous applications, i think.
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MattJ
To be honest this still seems reasonable to me
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Ge0rG
We have effectively deterred most applications.
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ralphm
I'm not sure if people that think that Trademarks are evil and by extension the Jabber mark, will start using the name if the fee is $0
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Ge0rG
ralphm: I'm not sure about that either. I only have a slight hope.
-
ralphm
It is still a trade mark
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Ge0rG
Yes :(
-
ralphm
I have seen two out of three present directors not seeing a need to change this, so I have to decline the request for change at this time.
-
ralphm
Martin?
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Ge0rG
ralphm: is your position that there is nothing we can do to revive the Jabber term?
-
ralphm
not at all
-
Martin
I agree with you ralphm: it's still a trademark, and we can always approach/waive it on a per-case basis
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Ge0rG
Martin: the board has to decide about applications on a per-case basis anyway.
-
ralphm
Ge0rG: I fact, I strongly believe it is possible to start using the Jabber mark for a marketing effort to attract people using XMPP-based chat. I do think, though, it would be good for such an effort to include the people managing the jabber.org service, and it also doesn't necessarily need to happen through the XSF.
-
Ge0rG
ralphm: I believe that as a prerequisite, we need to simplify the trademark usage guidelines as far as possible, and that removing the fee is a useful step in that direction
-
ralphm
I disagree
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Ge0rG
ralphm: with which parts of my statement?
-
ralphm
all of it
-
ralphm
in the interest of time, moving on
-
ralphm
3. SPAM working group
-
ralphm
Was this meant as a request to form a SIG?
-
ralphm
Martin: I see you added this, so I assume you know. But I think what should happen is that somebody writes a XEP for this.
-
Ge0rG
I'm not sure what the formal type of group is. I'm looking for a closed-membership group that can coordinate and devise a strategy before going public.
-
Martin
Dangerous assumption. Given most don't have access to add cards in Trello, I added it on request.
-
MattJ
I'll note that there was some concern (I don't remember who from) about the group being closed
-
ralphm
yeah, that bugs me too
-
jonasw
I think discussing anti-spam techniques publicly is not necessarily a good idea
-
ralphm
sure
-
MattJ
The problem is that if they aren't open, they can't be implemented by operators
-
ralphm
Right
-
MattJ
Unless we form a small "special" federation of operators
-
moparisthebest
it's just an arms race, discussing in private will at best delay them a bit, at least in public you can come up with things that can't be evaded
-
MattJ
If that's going to happen, operators are free to do that, but I don't know if that's something that should/needs to involve the XSF resources
-
ralphm
which doesn't require any XSF involvement (same as the operators list doesn't)
-
Ge0rG
I'd like to have a small closed group for testing and strategy, that communicates and provides hints to other operators in a semi-public way
-
moparisthebest
doesn't sound very federated
-
ralphm
Ge0rG: right, so I don't think you need the XSF for doing that
-
Ge0rG
ralphm: I hoped to get XSF blessing at least ;)
-
ralphm
Ge0rG: like XMPP, the community is federated, we don't need the XSF to be at the nexus of it all
-
SamWhited
If this group is using XSF infrastructure (servers, mailing lists, etc.) I would personally like it to be public. I would want to follow along.
-
ralphm
Ge0rG: you seem to assume this in all of the things you talk about, but I think a better approach is to find like-minded people and just start doing things
-
ralphm
The operators list is a great place to start this
-
MattJ
I agree with Ralph. And count me in as a like-minded person (who has some non-public anti-spam projects)
-
ralphm
yay
-
MattJ
I just don't think the XSF being involved in such a group is necessary or a good thing
-
ralphm
So looking at the clock, I'm going to close this
-
MattJ
But if that group ever needed something from the XSF, we can discuss that
-
ralphm
4. Next Meeting
-
ralphm
+1W?
-
Martin
+1W is ok with me
-
ralphm
MattJ: indeed
-
ralphm
5. Close
-
ralphm
Thanks all, sorry about starting late.
-
Ge0rG
Thanks very much for the feedback.
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
MattJ
Thanks ralphm :)
-
ralphm
I also forgot to ask someone to write minutes :-(
-
MattJ
I can go over the log and send some out
-
ralphm
MattJ: ☺
-
Guus
Tx for extended meeting
-
jonasw
+1
-
Zash
MattJ: Can you explain what the deal is with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#example-23 ?
-
Zash
iq-set returning stuff is pretty uncommon
-
jonasw
Zash, I find it logica✎ -
jonasw
Zash, I find it logical ✏
-
jonasw
It returns the actually applied preferences, which may be different. that’s less racy and less RTT than requiring the client to query it again after setting
-
Zash
There's still the race of another resource changing stuff between your iq-get and -set
-
MattJ
Zash, we have that race all over XMPP
-
Zash
MattJ: Rosters and blocking would like to have a word with you
-
MattJ
You think there's no race there? What?
-
Zash
It'll tell you if something changes
-
MattJ
I agree that a push method for preferences may be (have been?) nice
-
Zash
And those also deal in deltas, not the complete things.
-
MattJ
But that doesn't solve the race in any way
-
Zash
What exact race?
-
MattJ
You'll never know if another resource has a conflicting change in flight, or a push is already in-flight to you
-
Zash
MattJ: The mam-prefs fixes that?
-
MattJ
No, I'm saying that it's no worse
-
Zash
And you'll notice eventually if there was a roster or blocking thing in flight.
-
Zash
You *could* fix that by having a reference to the current version (as you see it)
-
Zash
And then you can build a blockchain on that!
-
MattJ
That's why I said push would potentially be nice
-
MattJ
But it doesn't solve a real problem in any way
-
Zash
It's already an established pattern
-
MattJ
There's little difference between push vs. pull
-
MattJ
I agree, in hindsight maybe adopting the same model would have been better
-
MattJ
It's a little more complex, but clients are used to it (well, they should be)
-
Zash
MattJ: Was that in the very earliest drafts? Or, how could I have missed it all this time?
-
Zash
I remember asking why it wasn't using the common push pattern at some point, but not having seen that it reflected the data back in iq-set.
-
MattJ
afaik it's always been this way
-
moparisthebest
It's almost as if the various xeps were written by different people :)
-
Zash
jonasw: found the thing that originally produced xeps.xml: https://q.zash.se/ef274a7e18fc.txt (grep for botsFile)
-
Zash
From the old all-in-one repo