XSF Discussion - 2017-09-21

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  72. jonasw Zash, mhm thanks
  73. jonasw not sure what you expect me to do with it though
  74. Zash jonasw: me neither
  75. jonasw okay :)
  76. jonasw then I’m just going to ignore that for now
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  192. Ge0rG Is there any way to mark a message as related to some other message, without specifying the exact type of relation? We have 0372 for explicit references, <thread>s, LMC, but they all imply a certain relationship
  193. jonasw what is the use-case?
  194. Ge0rG jonasw: MAM - when a given message is asked for, it is useful to provide all the related messages as well.
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  196. jonasw I’m not convinced
  197. jonasw at least not as default behaviour
  198. Ge0rG jonasw: some messages only make sense on top of others, e.g. reactions or LMC
  199. jonasw sure
  200. Ge0rG jonasw: it would be impractical to deliver only the addon message but not the original one
  201. jonasw for reactions, I’d simply omit those
  202. jonasw (in the view that is)
  203. Ge0rG jonasw: if your client receives a reaction message with a dangling reference, you need to store the XML and process it later when the actual message is obtained.
  204. jonasw yes.
  205. jonasw I don’t necessarily see an issue with that
  206. jonasw while handling out-of-order messages is more annoying
  207. edhelas the new CSS breaks horizontal scrolling on some XEPs https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
  208. jonasw scrolling works, but indeed it’s an issue that it’s required
  209. jonasw edhelas, can you make an issue on the xeps repository?
  210. Ge0rG 385 is just too wide.
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  212. edhelas jonasw done
  213. jonasw edhelas, thanks
  214. jonasw Ge0rG, we can’t go over all XEPs to fix that
  215. Ge0rG jonasw: we could define a common mechanism to cross-reference messages and use that?
  216. jonasw well, we could, but ...
  217. Ge0rG but.
  218. jonasw Ge0rG, sure, yet-another-standard? :)
  219. Ge0rG jonasw: stop spoiling the fun!
  220. edhelas it's possible in CSS to break lines properly
  221. jonasw edhelas, auto-breaking of lines in code examples sounds like a bad idea
  222. edhelas I also have a question
  223. jonasw Ge0rG, you’d want to rebase the existing use-cases (LMC etc.) on that, and especially with LMC I see a lot of breakage from that...
  224. edhelas I'm planning to use MAM to retrieve MUC histories, is it possible to disable the default messages pushed by the server on login ?
  225. daniel edhelas: yes
  226. edhelas oh ?
  227. jonasw edhelas, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#enter-managehistory
  228. jonasw maxchars='0' is one example
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  231. jonasw (I’d set maxchars='0' *and* maxstanzas='0' to be sure; I guess not all services support maxchars)
  232. edhelas oh, so I should explicitely disable them
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  234. edhelas thanks jonasw :)
  235. jonasw np :)
  236. daniel jonasw: I think I only set maxchars and I never had problems
  237. SamWhited Ge0rG: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html
  238. SamWhited That was meant for things like that
  239. jonasw daniel, "never", not even biboumi? ;)
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  242. daniel Even though maxchar is a very weird metric now that I think about it. I guess back in the day is just copy pasted that from somewhere
  243. daniel This will probably break if you set something other than 0
  244. jonasw agreed
  245. daniel jonasw: didn't know that biboumi was a problem. Never got reported to me
  246. Ge0rG SamWhited: is there a reason for using message ID and not unique ID?
  247. jonasw odd, I had something about that in the back of my head. maybe it was about MAM instead
  248. daniel jonasw: yes. Mam did break the stanza queue for sm
  249. SamWhited Ge0rG: no, I don't think anyone supports unique ID
  250. Ge0rG XEP-0045 is full of quirks
  251. SamWhited But it doesn't matter to me
  252. Ge0rG I'd really love to fix message IDs instead of inventing new unique IDs. But backward compatibility!1!
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  257. SamWhited Oh, am I mixing those up? Whichever. I would be fine coupling it to the unique stable message ID thing, whichever that is
  258. jonasw XEP-0359 (<https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0359.html>)
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  261. SamWhited Right, that.
  262. SamWhited Yah, in that case the real reason this doesn't support it is that HipChat doesn't support it and I was never going to be able to convince them to let me ad even more stuff.
  263. SamWhited Ge0rG: Do you think you'd want to use it for something? If so I wouldn't mind updating it to use the unique ID stuff
  264. Ge0rG SamWhited: some weeks ago, the topic of grouping messages when delivering MAM data came up here
  265. moparisthebest just curious, how do you know messages are related?
  266. Ge0rG moparisthebest: that's the challenge
  267. moparisthebest like these might be in response to your stuff, in fact they are, but they might just be a random unrelated topic
  268. SamWhited Oh, this is for grouping messages sent in reply to another message? That seems different to me
  269. moparisthebest that seems like an unsolvable challenge from an automated perspective, so a xep to support the grouping seems useless
  270. SamWhited actually, maybe not…
  271. Ge0rG SamWhited: it's about finding out which messages are related to each other
  272. SamWhited I agree with half of what moparisthebest said; it seems unsolvable if you're trying to automate it. That doesn't mean you can't have a good UI that leads the user to do the work for you.
  273. moparisthebest I don't think you can and that's why it just returns the last X or whatever
  274. moparisthebest SamWhited, if I respond to you like this I guess you could call those grouped (by putting your name first)
  275. jonasw the relation is already spelled out in the XML (LMC, Reactions...)
  276. jonasw there’s just no unified way to detect it
  277. jonasw (it’s, from my understanding, not about generic replies)
  278. SamWhited moparisthebest: That seems like a sensible guess
  279. SamWhited This seems more like what <thread> is for though
  280. Ge0rG SamWhited: I'm not speaking about message that have content that relates to other messages
  281. Ge0rG SamWhited: I'm speaking about technical dependencies, like "this message is a reaction to message XY"
  282. Ge0rG so it doesn't make sense to parse / display the message without also having XY
  283. SamWhited oh yes, that's what I thought you meant originally, yah, that's totally what this is for
  284. SamWhited I think… you mean things like clients having a +1 button or a party hat button or something?
  285. Ge0rG so it would make sense, in the context of MAM, to use unique IDs
  286. jonasw SamWhited, yes
  287. Ge0rG SamWhited: yeah
  288. SamWhited Cool, yah, moparisthebest was confusing me :)
  289. SamWhited That is indeed what this was made for
  290. jonasw so let’s rebase xep-0367 on stable & unique message IDs and build a reactions XEP on top of that
  291. Ge0rG jonasw: +1
  292. Ge0rG Except...
  293. jonasw you want me to do the work, right? ;P
  294. Ge0rG You still don't know the unique message ID of outgoing messages.
  295. SamWhited I don't remember the MID spec, but it allows clients to assign one too, right?
  296. jonasw SamWhited, indeed
  297. SamWhited ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ problem solved
  298. jonasw so called origin-id
  299. Ge0rG But MAM operates on the server-assigned ID
  300. SamWhited That seems fine; MAM operates on server assigned ID, this operates on client assigned ones.
  301. jonasw it would be convenient if the client could query MAM for the message if MAM doesn’t support grouping
  302. jonasw (the proposed grouping that is)
  303. jonasw alternatively, we could modify MAM to adopt the client-generated origin-id for sent messages iff it doesn’t conflict with any existing ID (and maybe reject delivery otherwise or something)
  304. Ge0rG I'm sure somebody will pull the "omg security!1!" card on that.
  305. moparisthebest Ge0rG‎: "this message is a reaction to message XY" -- how do you know that though?
  306. jonasw moparisthebest, reaction as in "+1 button"
  307. jonasw not as I react to your message right now
  308. jonasw Ge0rG, how?
  309. jonasw (and isn’t that usually your job?)
  310. moparisthebest he said 'this message is a reaction' not 'I hit a +1' (is +1 a thing in xmpp or any clients?)
  311. jonasw not yet, that’s the point
  312. jonasw and those "+1 buttons" are usually called reactions
  313. jonasw e.g. on github
  314. Ge0rG jonasw: let's see... if the server is using a typical hash-table implementation, a client could DoS it by contructing specially-chosen UUIDs.
  315. jonasw Ge0rG, meeeh :P
  316. jonasw just don’t tell clients your hash seed?
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  318. Ge0rG This one! https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2011/12/huge-portions-of-web-vulnerable-to-hashing-denial-of-service-attack/
  319. jonasw that’s a general vector, and afaict choosing a random hash seed is sufficient to fix that
  320. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm sure it's possible to extract the seed via side-channel attacks
  321. jonasw Ge0rG, *sigh*
  322. jonasw then we’ll have to operate on the client-generated ID. it’s saner anyways, because it works without MAM
  323. jonasw MAM will have to interpret these IDs then and intrenally store their relatedness for queries
  324. edhelas what is the correct request to get MAM history from MUC ?
  325. jonasw edhelas, ask the MUC for history?
  326. edhelas <iq xmlns="jabber:client" type="set" id="S8lR4X"><query xmlns="urn:xmpp:mam:1"><x xmlns="jabber:x:data" type="submit"><field var="FORM_TYPE"><value>urn:xmpp:mam:1</value></field><field var="with"><value>muc@conference.movim.eu</value></field></x><set xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/rsm"><max>300</max></set></query></iq>
  327. jonasw (I don’t know of any non-biboumi MUCs which support that)
  328. edhelas looks like I'm wrong somewhere
  329. jonasw edhelas, also, this may be better suited in jdev@
  330. Ge0rG jonasw: yeah. Because it's a good thing to have three different IDs on each message.
  331. edhelas a true
  332. edhelas sory
  333. jonasw Ge0rG, m(
  334. jonasw why exactly is a mam query a type='set' operation?!
  335. Ge0rG oh, wait. those IDs are all insufficient in some ways. Let's create a new XEP with a fourth, universal ID!
  336. jonasw Ge0rG, any other suggestion? other than getting a sent-carbon for your own message with the MAM ID >.>
  337. SamWhited hmm, I guess querying MAM for "a message and all of its reactions" would be sort of nice. I'm not sure if it's strictly necessary though.
  338. Ge0rG jonasw: that was exactly what I proposed back then.
  339. SamWhited It seems to add another dimension of complication for something that could easily be lived without.
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  341. Ge0rG SamWhited: the problem is not "a message and all of its reactions" but rather "the message and all the messages you need to properly understand it"
  342. SamWhited Why would you ever actually need to do that? I don't dislike the idea of making sure that's queryable, it just doesn't seem like a common enough thing to worry about.
  343. Ge0rG SamWhited: if you receive a reaction message with an unresolved reference ID, you need to delay processing until you know what it is a reaction to
  344. SamWhited I suspect 90% of people will just sync history and you'll see new reactions appearing as history gets updated
  345. SamWhited That seems fine
  346. jonasw I tend to agree
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  348. Ge0rG I tend to process messages when they are received, but that doesn't work with missing references.
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  350. jonasw the argument Ge0rG makes is in the spirit of the "simple clients, complex servers" principle though
  351. SamWhited Does MAM not guarantee delivery order?
  352. SamWhited Oh, nevermind, stupid question
  353. jonasw ok :)
  354. SamWhited If you have a reaction and *then* you sync history it doesn't matter what MAM does.
  355. Ge0rG SamWhited: it only guarantees the order for the subset you request.
  356. SamWhited yup, yup
  357. SamWhited So in that case though you end up having to make a MAM query, then for each message make another query asking if there are any reactions you haven't received yet
  358. Ge0rG if there are any messages for a given reaction.
  359. jonasw SamWhited, no, the idea would be that the original MAM query would give you all messages to which there have been reactions in the result setd
  360. jonasw (even though they may be outside the range of messages you requested)
  361. Ge0rG jonasw: but that would violate message order, and lead to interesting results.
  362. SamWhited This seems like a lot of additional complexity when you could just store your reactions somewhere on the client and when you get a message if you have reactions in storage already display them.
  363. SamWhited Or when you get a reaction, if you have the message its linked to, also display it.
  364. Ge0rG example: you request 50 messages before #103. you get #53-#102 and #40 because it was reacted to. Next, you request 50 messages before #40, because it is the earliest in your history. #41-#52 are lost
  365. jonasw Ge0rG, all depends on the sanity of your implementation
  366. Ge0rG SamWhited: that makes (limited) sense if you store the original message XML somewhere
  367. jonasw Ge0rG, do you really need the XML? I don’t think so.
  368. SamWhited Ge0rG: I don't think the storage format matters
  369. Ge0rG SamWhited: but then you end up searching your storage for a reference to each new message you receive.
  370. SamWhited Ge0rG: That seems fine
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  372. Ge0rG pulls the client DoS card.
  373. jonasw I pull the "use a proper storage backend" card
  374. SamWhited There is no client DoS card.
  375. jonasw e.g. a simple sqlite database
  376. jonasw just add a column "reaction_to" with a stable message ID thing
  377. jonasw add an index to it
  378. jonasw -> reasonable lookup time
  379. jonasw you also only need to do that for messages you fetch from the archive
  380. SamWhited Flat XML files are probably fine, you are going to get a bunch of stuff to store, that's just how XMPP works. If you're worried about scans and lookup times, its your job to do something intelligent and make sure you don't dos yourself.
  381. SamWhited Maybe that means creating an "unknown references" file to make scanning quicker, maybe it means using a database. That's up to you.
  382. Ge0rG I wish for the times when XMPP servers were complicated and XMPP clients were simple.
  383. SamWhited I agree with that in general, but this doesn't make the XMPP client complicated; it makes it a dumb display layer that doesn't have to have a ton of logic about doing crazy MAM queries.
  384. SamWhited It can just keep doing whatever it was already doing and process things as they come in. It might be processing the reaction, or it might be processing the message in terms of reactions it already has.
  385. moparisthebest do clients generally do mam queries reversed like that?
  386. moparisthebest conversations doesn't seem to, it seems to start loading from your last message and go forward
  387. moparisthebest in which case everything *just works*
  388. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I think there are two models of MAM usage: (a) query for everything since your last connection, (b) query a given channel / user history on demand when opening the tab
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  391. moparisthebest oh I was waiting for b until I just realized gajim made that into a beer...
  392. Ge0rG "Clients and servers MUST NOT include an <attach-to/> element on messages with a non-messaging payload unless they are including it on an error which may be attached to the message that caused the error to be generated." What is a "non-messaging payload"?
  393. SamWhited No idea, no <body> I guess? That should probably be fixed.
  394. SamWhited Or just removed, I don't see the point in that restriction anymore.
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  406. Ge0rG SamWhited: for reactions, I'd go with a separate non-<body> element, because people in here demanded invisibility to incompatible clients
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  409. Ge0rG And because it will be awesome to have to change all the implementations that filter out body-less messages as "unimportant".
  410. SamWhited yah, just removing those lines from message attatching seems reasonable
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  555. edhelas muc.xmpp.org doesn't supports mam:1/mam:2 yet ?
  556. MattJ No
  557. Zash -version xmpp.org
  558. Bunneh Zash: xmpp.org is running Prosody version 0.9.12 on Linux
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  563. moparisthebest -version muc.xmpp.org
  564. Bunneh moparisthebest: muc.xmpp.org doesn't reply to version requests
  565. edhelas yeah that seems to be the problem
  566. edhelas I don't see caps for muc.xmpp.org in my db
  567. moparisthebest Yea so we don't actually know what it's running :)
  568. Zash <identity type='text' name='Prosody Chatrooms' category='conference'/>
  569. Zash Impossible to know
  570. mathieui total mystery
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  607. moparisthebest It could be lying
  608. moparisthebest Never trust a remote entity
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