XSF Discussion - 2017-09-22

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  80. edhelas that's what my mom told me yes
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  164. Guus That CFE that was issued for XEP-0368 got me thinking about multiplexing services, using the ALPN TLS extension.
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  166. Guus I'm new to this, so if I'm asking silly questions, feel free to point that out
  167. Zash That's all silly
  168. Guus (please wait until I've actually started questions)
  169. Guus can we multiplex Direct TLS and STARTTLS somehow?
  170. Zash In theory
  171. Guus as the latter doesn't start out as a TLS connection, I'm assuming ALPN isn't usable there?
  172. Zash More like redundant, like SNI
  173. zinid sni is redundant?
  174. Guus I don't get that last statement
  175. Zash I'm somewhat anti all those things. As I see it, all it does is move stuff into the TLS library.
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  177. Guus second question: if we'd add BOSH to the multiplexing-mix, would that need a new ALPN protocol ID, or use one of the HTTP-ones? The latter would prevent multiplexing with another (non-XMPP) webservice, right?
  178. Zash XMPP, HTTP, TLS are all fairly easily identifiable from the first few bytes, so they can be multiplexed
  179. Guus third question for Zash: if not use SNI / ALPN, what's the alternative for multiplexing protocols (and hosts) on one port?
  180. Guus with existing tooling?
  181. Zash Prosody does it just fine, except TLS and STARTTLS can't be on the same port.
  182. Zash Duno if there are other tools
  183. Holger TCPMUX on Port 1!
  184. Holger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_Port_Service_Multiplexer
  185. Holger Guus: There's sslh, for example: http://www.rutschle.net/tech/sslh.shtml
  186. Zash Holger: Yeah, now we get TLSMUX on port 443 instead. All this has happened before etc.
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  188. Ge0rG History is repeating itself.
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  191. zinid you cannot offload TLS efficiently with starttls
  192. Zash Because?
  193. zinid because how?
  194. SouL Has anyone used http://tsung.erlang-projects.org/1/01/about/?
  195. zinid Zash: will you write your own balancer understanding starttls?
  196. Zash Is it really that hard?
  197. zinid Zash: writing haproxy or nginx?
  198. Zash zinid: I did that once, FWIW.
  199. zinid I think yes, it's hard
  200. zinid nobody interested in your handmade toys
  201. zinid SouL: I used tsung a lot of course
  202. Zash Hrrr
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  205. Zash Doesn't nginx have starttls for its email things?
  206. Zash And didn't that Fastmail guy add XMPP support to nginx?
  207. zinid so you will use SMTP STARTTLS for XMPP STARTTLS?
  208. zinid if "add support" means writing shitty patch, then yes, he did
  209. Zash I don't think I want to hear this argument agaidn
  210. zinid what do you want to here?
  211. zinid nginx out of the box doesn't support xmpp starttls
  212. zinid also, some guys prefer haproxy
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  214. zinid they will not change it only because of xmpp starttls
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  223. Guus second question: if we'd add BOSH to the multiplexing-mix, would that need a new ALPN protocol ID, or use one of the HTTP-ones? The latter would prevent multiplexing with another (non-XMPP) webservice, right?
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  227. Ge0rG I'd say bosh is http
  228. jonasw Guus, I thnik you’d multiplex based on the requested resource then
  229. jonasw layer 7 routing etc.
  230. Guus that makes sense
  231. Zash Did ALPN allow the client to set multiple types?
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  237. Guus I like how you talk in the past tense :)
  238. Guus (and: I don't know)
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  242. Zash Looks like it does. > "ProtocolNameList" contains the list of protocols advertised by the > client, in descending order of preference.
  243. Zash So, registering bosh wouldn't be too crazy.
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  284. stefandxm is there any "larger" collective of error-messages than the one in xmpp core?
  285. stefandxm i am thinking now we get a lot of extended error codes that could probably be more generic if they were not in core.
  286. stefandxm so then maybe it already exists :)
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  319. SamWhited Ge0rG: I was thinking more about tying message attaching to XEP-0359 IDs. I'm not sure that it gets us all that much anymore, because you have to support attaching by origin ID and by IDs set by the server, which feels just as weird as attaching based on the id attribute which may or may not exist.
  320. Ge0rG Yeah, non-mandatory non-unique IDs are what brought us into the trouble
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  325. SamWhited I'm not actually a fan of having two different entities that can set IDs either.
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  331. Ge0rG Two entities, three kinds of IDs. What could go wrong?
  332. Ge0rG Oh, all of them are optional.
  333. jonasw hm, right, you couldn’t attach something on a message without ID :/
  334. jonasw you can’t use the MAM ID anyways, thinking of it, because other clients don’t know it
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  338. Ge0rG maybe it would be useful to enforce origin-id == message-id.
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  340. jonasw interesting idea
  341. jonasw bring that up on standards@
  342. Ge0rG There seems to be no discussion of that XEP on standards at all.
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  344. Ge0rG oh, nevermind. my filter-fu is bad
  345. SamWhited Why even have origin-id at that point? Clients could just set message-id
  346. Ge0rG because message-ids are not guaranteed to be unique, random or even present
  347. SamWhited I don't follow. If you're going to say in the spec "set both of these to the same thing and make it unique and random" why not just say "set the message-id and make sure it's unique and random"
  348. SamWhited ?
  349. Ge0rG SamWhited: because as a receiving entity, you don't know the rules that the sender used to generate the ID
  350. SamWhited Sure you do, they say they support stanza-id in their disco
  351. MattJ Right, that's why it exists
  352. SamWhited Actually, no, I lied
  353. MattJ and yes, it's optional, but I think it's fine for a XEP to fail gracefully on that
  354. SamWhited You're getting stuff from a MAM archive, and the client that sent it originally is online… you don't have the disco info for context.
  355. SamWhited is offline, even.
  356. MattJ You don't need disco, just the element existing or not
  357. Ge0rG MattJ: only if there is an origin-id in the message.
  358. SamWhited MattJ: I was suggesting the element didn't need to exist (if you're going to set it in both places, just use the id attr), but I was confused, that doesn't provide enough context.
  359. MattJ Oh right, yeah, you can't rely on that
  360. SamWhited So yah, I agree, if you're going to support stanza-id forcing the origin-id and the id attr to be the same sounds sensible to me.
  361. MattJ Also some servers think it's ok to modify that whenever they want anyway :)
  362. Ge0rG Yeah.
  363. Ge0rG But then the value of message-id doesn't matter anyway.
  364. Ge0rG And other servers (transports) tend to remove XML payload from MUC messages.
  365. SamWhited It matters for things that don't support stanza-id
  366. Ge0rG So we are fu... doomed anyway.
  367. SamWhited This doesn't "fix" anything, it just makes things slightly more consistent at the cost of a tiny bit of weird useless duplication
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  417. fippo has anyone running a public server ever tried to run yahoos open_nsfw image classifier on the avatar data?
  418. fippo (you can probably guess what this classifier does)
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  525. Ge0rG Hey that's funny. I've read the "Opportunistic TLS" proposal, then thought the term isn't correct, then thought that would be bike shedding. And now that exact discussion has happened anyway.
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  541. moparisthebest Guus: yes I use sslh to multiplex everything
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