-
moparisthebest
I think the reason good ux goes against security is because those are generally different developers
-
moparisthebest
Especially for web
-
emxp
moparisthebest: i just remember how Constanze Kurz from CCC said something like: 'we need to bring students from other disciplines in contact with IT - even so art students'
-
jonasw
FLOSS needs more designers indeed
-
mimi89999
đź‘Ť
-
emxp
and as a tech student say so too. why am i 'locked' into a pure technological based university? so we need the other way round too
-
edhelas
yup I agree
-
zinid
art can be learnt actually (especially graphics design, where you basically only need to pick right colors and shapes), but nobody wants to do this
-
jonasw
I doubt that "nobody" wants to do this, there are quite a few graphic designers out there.
-
zinid
jonasw: ok, I mean a typical developer
-
jonasw
I just think it’s pointless to force yourself to do something you don’t like if you could be doing something you *do* like (and possibly even are already good at).
-
jonasw
better get an interested graphics designer involved
-
zinid
how?
-
zinid
how will s/he join xmpp?
-
zinid
via photoshop?
-
jonasw
zinid, they don’t need to join XMPP to contribute.
-
jonasw
(whatever joining XMPP means)
-
zinid
can you please describe the working flow of such designer?
-
jonasw
I have no idea of designer workflows?
-
zinid
I have :) I hired some back in the time
-
jonasw
then you can shed some light on it :)
-
zinid
what I meant is that there should be incentive for a designer: money or interest
-
zinid
since s/he's not joined XMPP (not interested) only money left
-
Zash
Everyone have their motivation sources
-
jonasw
zinid, I don’t think that "isn’t part of XMPP" (still, whatever that means) implies "not interested" for sure
-
zinid
in 15+ years of xmpp development I can barely remember as single designer
-
jonasw
it can also imply "doesn’t know the key point which leads to interest yet" or "doesn’t know about XMPP at all yet✎ -
jonasw
it can also imply "doesn’t know the key point which leads to interest yet" or "doesn’t know about XMPP at all yet" ✏
-
uc
#Opensourcedesign on Freenet
-
zinid
*a
-
jonasw
zinid, that’s maybe because most of XMPP development takes place in the FLOSS community, where there are generally only few designers abound
-
jonasw
(and what doesn’t take place in FLOSS often doesn’t announce XMPP that loudly)
-
uc
Freenode**
-
Zash
Have there been any studies on the general lack of designers in FLOSS?
-
jonasw
Zash, either there is a general lack, or they are mostly horrible ;-)
-
Zash
90% of everything is horrible
-
emxp
jonasw, zinid: I think in first hand it is important for devs and designers to get an understand of each focuses and how they think. thus the designer and devs can adapt their work or workflows to bring them together. that why I said combine the studies or at least let them get in contact. i think both sides are interested in each other. but there is no need for each side to do others work if they dont want to. so just get an understanding. what makes good UX, what makes good security? (e.g less is probably more!) and so on. there are lots of (mainly) non tech people in the CCC for example
-
jonasw
+1 emxp
-
Zash
eh
-
Ge0rG
So we need to acquire some designers...
-
emxp
actually, whats the puropose of XSF? Do you collect money, too? For example, to pay people for specific programming/design tasks?
-
SouL
I would say XSF cares about XMPP, the protocol.
-
SouL
Software is a thing for developers.
-
zinid
probably collecting money and hire designers is not that bad idea
-
emxp
SouL: maybe there should be an extended foundation or so. in principle like Google Summer of Code. but only for xmpp purposes
-
emxp
i would donate money
-
emxp
This foundation furthermore could spend money on other things which supports xmpp too
-
zinid
emxp: I think XSF has donations already
-
Guus
exmp: The XMPP Standards Foundation (also known as the XSF and formerly the Jabber Software Foundation) is an independent, nonprofit standards development organisation whose primary mission is to define open protocols for presence, instant messaging, and real-time communication and collaboration on top of the IETF’s Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP).
-
Guus
copy/pasted that :)
-
Guus
as for sponsorship - that's obviously very welcome. There's a sponsorship programme defined here: https://xmpp.org/community/sponsorship.html On top of that, we occasionally ask for sponsorship regarding individual events (mostly the XSF Summits)
-
zinid
I think what we really need is more full-time developers, 95% of xmpp projects are maintained in spare time, most of the projects can barely survive 10-year period (I can count only a few)
-
Guus
arguably a very good way to support the XSF, besides donating money, is to be actively involved in the activities that we undertake. There's a lot of things that we do, from defining protocols, to providing internal support (to our website, this chat, preparing for conferences, etc)
-
zinid
Guus: donating to XSF will not help xmpp in my opinion
-
Guus
zinid: I don't think that's something that should be initiated by the XSF. The XSF is there to develop the protocol, not the implementations.
-
zinid
Guus: I don't say XSF should do that
-
Guus
Well, there are plenty of open source, but also commercial organisations, that do development on XMPP
-
Guus
I'm sure that many of these will gladly accept help
-
Guus
By the way: most of the servers listed on our website are older than 10 years. There definately is a solid foundation there.
-
MattJ
Prosody is 9
-
zinid
I almost always talk about clients when I say "xmpp software" :)
-
MattJ
Client software is harder - platforms and UIs change
-
zinid
no surprise we have some servers with commercial support, because it's easier to build bussiness model with them
-
MattJ
All the 10-year clients around, people now call them ugly
-
zinid
MattJ: exactly
-
Guus
zinid: so, open up an IDE and start typing :)
-
Zash
Wrong shade of grey
-
Guus
there's a good deal of libraries available that you can (re)use to create new stuff
-
Guus
but you're absolutely right - we could really use more nice clients.
-
zinid
Guus: I cannot do everything myself, obviously, I'm a server dev
-
Ge0rG
I think that the XSF urgently needs to widen its scope from "protocol" to "software", so it can provide UX guidelines etc.
-
Zash
back to*
-
Ge0rG
yaxim is only eight years so.✎ -
Ge0rG
yaxim is only eight years old :( ✏
-
Guus
I'm not sure if I agree, Ge0rG.
-
Zash
Recreate the Jabber Software Foundation as a separate entity
-
Ge0rG
Zash: I've been pondering about that.
-
Guus
On first thought, I'd prefer that. Will have to give it more thought though.
-
Ge0rG
Zash: but the main issue I see is: it will be run by a subset of the same people as the XSF, and those are already short on time.
-
emxp
Guus, zinid, Ge0rG: Yes, its good that XSF is focusing on the protocol. so my suggestion was to focus with another on implementations and full time payments
-
emxp
for devs
-
emxp
or part-time in the beginning
-
Zash
Where'd the money come from?
-
Ge0rG
Besides, I'm convinced that "protocol" also includes defining certain user-facing elements. Like how to call entity addresses for that protocol.
-
Guus
emxp: again, I'm not arguing that it's a bad idea. I don't think you'd need a separate organization for that though, as existing ones will be very happy to accept your help.
-
zinid
emxp: there is an initiative to collect money for Jingle support in conversations, it ended up with 500$ or so ;)
-
Ge0rG
emxp: you need a dozen developers and a year of time to make a well-polished XMPP client. So if you have a million dollars, let me know.
-
zinid
nobody wants to donate
-
Zash
Sure there are people who want to donate, but you aren't going to get full time developer pay from donations
-
zinid
take a look at Matrix, they have funding problems and started fundrasing, the result is 2800$ : https://www.patreon.com/matrixdotorg
-
zinid
and Matrix is quite hyped at the moment
-
Guus
zinid: arguably, they _now_ have funding problems, because they started off as a fully funded project (which suddenly lost its sole sponsor).
-
zinid
and Matrix has 11 developers, lol :)
-
Zash
-do 2800 / 11
-
Bunneh
Zash: 254.54545454545
-
zinid
what a bunch of money!
-
Guus
zinid, what do you propose?
-
daniel
for their london office this pays for the oyster card they need to get to work
-
zinid
Guus: I would propose something if I knew, I see no solution
-
Zash
Somehow attract people willing to spend their free time on making things better.
-
zinid
or somehow attract their money
-
MattJ
Charge users $1/year for using your app
-
zinid
MattJ: that didn't work, whatsapp was still unprofitable before the acquirement :D
-
Zash
Sell your soul to Facegoogle.
-
Zash
And your users data.
-
zinid
I have neither soul nor users data :(
-
Zash
Raise money for a marketing campain in order to raise money for writing a client.
-
Zash
Marketing marketing marketing!!
-
SouL
Uh, what do you want to do with me?
-
Guus
Sell you, obviously.
-
mathieui
SouL, sell you
-
Zash
One SouL, in mint condition, do I hear any bids?
-
SouL
Nooo
- SouL runs away!
-
mathieui
09:45:39 zinid> I think what we really need is more full-time developers, 95% of xmpp projects are maintained in spare time, most of the projects can barely survive 10-year period → I lightly updated the jabberfr wiki yesterday, it is full of clients dead in the last 10 years
-
Zash
Projects dying isn't necessarily a bad thing tho. Something something Darwinism.
-
mathieui
yeah
-
mathieui
but it’s bad because I’m the only one who updated the wiki after 2011
-
mathieui
so, "popular mobile clients" had J2ME and "popular clients" had coccinella
-
Guus
If we can't manage to update a wiki, I fear for development projects...
-
mathieui
Guus, that’s mostly because we had a very motivated guy doing it before then
-
Guus
Which, coincidentally, why I've started to help out with maintaining the stuff that we do have, as XSF.
-
Guus
mathieui: perhaps removing outdated data is better than keeping it unmaintained. Nothing puts people off as much as seeing information that's clearly incorrect.
-
Guus
I'm positive that things like that have a negative impact on people that consider contributing. I'm afraid we're loosing people, before they even started.
-
Ge0rG
Are the json files used for client list generation hosted on xmpp.org as well?
-
Ge0rG
We are losing people everywhere!
-
Guus
Ge0rG: referring to the software listing? Yes, used for all software
-
Ge0rG
Guus: not "used" but "hosted". The actual JSON files. So that external services could use them.
-
Guus
Ge0rG: that's my fear. The good news is that improving our data can be done by anyone. It's an easy PR away.
-
mathieui
Ge0rG, that’s why I started that
-
mathieui
that and adding conversations, chatsecure, xabber
-
mathieui
Guus*
-
Guus
Ge0rG: Ah, unsure. Well, you could always refer to the stuff in Github, but I don't think it was intended that way.
-
Guus
mathieui: thanks :)
-
Zash
Did we update the Prosody file?
-
Guus
"the Prosody file" ?
-
Guus
Prosody is listed on https://xmpp.org/software/servers.html, if that's what you mena.
-
emxp
zinid: i siggest first lets ask, how many money can we collect. and how can we spend it. what needs to happen to increase donations
-
zinid
emxp: where/whom to ask?
-
Zash
Oh, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/600d7f4d484c69ef3d631f40b7d65d9258015291
-
emxp
If XSF is okay to do task expanding the Protocol thats nice. but so far I didnt saw that they are not interestet
-
emxp
zinid: ask generally
-
Ge0rG
emxp: the XSF doesn't seem interested to do things beyond protocol development. And that's hard already.
-
Zash
> Do one thing, do it well.
-
Zash
And separation of concern.
-
Guus
especially because we're already having a hard time with that, I don't think the XSF should be taking on more.
-
SouL
Well, that would imply that XSF favours specific clients and such, if I understand correctly.
-
Ge0rG
SouL: not at all.
-
Ge0rG
There is plenty of possible improvement between "the XMPP protocol" and "Make Jabber Great Again"
-
SouL
Ge0rG, emxp would like to collect money for devs, or not?
-
Ge0rG
SouL: right, collecting money for developers would be rather hard.
-
Guus
But, again, if anyone wants to support clients: give the existing organizations your support. You really don't need the XSF for that.
-
Ge0rG
Either the XSF would create "the reference client" from that money, competing with XSF members, or it would have to devise a biased way to give money out.
-
Ge0rG
Guus: the existing client developers?
-
MattJ
XSF + reference client -> bad idea
-
Kev
Anyone + reference client -> bad idea, I think.
-
Kev
Not just the XSF.
-
Guus
Ge0rG: https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
-
Zash
How long have people said "the xsf should do a reference test suite"? :)
-
zinid
reference server is a good idea! I have one to suggest :D
-
MattJ
Me too
-
zinid
2 reference servers is even better
-
Ge0rG
Guus: I know that page. My question was, whether you imply "client devs" by "existing orgs"
-
Ge0rG
Zash: a reference test suite would actually be something where I can see the XSF paying for development.
-
Ge0rG
Except that Daniel now almost implemented one.
-
Zash
Orly?
-
Guus
Ge0rG: I'm desperately trying to avoid naming names (as I'm personally involved in one of them) - but various clients have OSS organisations behind them that would gladly accept support.
-
zinid
what will the suite test?
-
zinid
servers?
-
zinid
because I don't know how to test clients
-
zinid
do we have shitty servers? no, we have shitty clients
-
Ge0rG
Guus: I'm not asking for names, but for clarification of your statement :)
-
Ge0rG
zinid: that's a blatant lie! We have shitty servers AND shitty clients.
-
zinid
no way
-
Ge0rG
zinid: you don't happen to be Evgeny from the ML?
-
Zash
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law
-
Guus
Ge0rG: find the organization of the client that you want to see improved, then support them (either by joining as a dev, a community member, or by donating resources)
-
zinid
Ge0rG: that's me yes
-
emxp
Guus, SouL, Ge0rG: Yes, XSF shouldnt do an additional task. a new foundations may collect more money, because it is maybe more obvious where the money goes. if you can see projects
-
emxp
directly
-
Ge0rG
zinid: nice to meet you, and welcome to the XSF MUCs, where all the "inactive" members hang around :D
-
SouL
:)
-
Guus
Ge0rG: It's not just the developer that needs supporting, it's the entire organization (formal or informal) around the development effort. Some of our most valuable members write no code at all.
-
Guus
(That's where my distinction between Dev and Org originates)
-
Ge0rG
Guus: that's probably true. Still, sponsoring individual devs/dev-orgs is out of scope for the XSF, and rightly so.
-
Guus
ge0rG: I agree completely. I've been stressing that the XSF does not need to be involved, but instead, people could reach out to those dev-orgs directly.
-
zinid
yes, XSF should not collect donations
-
zinid
it's pointless, they need to share them somehow between projects, that's hard
-
Ge0rG
Guus: except there are no people who want to contribute significant amounts of money.
-
Guus
Sure it should. But not to sponsor one particular implementation.
-
zinid
Guus: and how to share between the projects? on what basis? equally?
-
Guus
Ge0rG: All I'm saying is that the XSF need not be involved if someone wants to do sponsoring of individual projects :)
-
Guus
zinid: you do not share at all. You use it for the activities that the XSF does itself.
-
Ge0rG
Guus: yes. But the more important question is: how can the XSF contribute to a future where we do have non-shitty clients and servers?
-
zinid
Guus: ah, ok
-
Ge0rG
zinid: the XSF can still pay for Summit Dinners and XMPP stickers.
-
Ge0rG
I wish we had Jabber stickers.
-
Guus
Ge0rG: facilitate development by having an up-to-date library of information (the XEPs, the Wiki, the webpage) and provide avenues for discussion (like this MUC - that still could use a web frontend - the mailinglists, and perhaps others).
-
Ge0rG
a web frontend for this MUC would require developing a web client.
-
zinid
regarding jabber tickers, isn't this XSF responsibility?
-
zinid
*stickers
-
Guus
Ge0rG: it further can host or be present at gatherings (like FOSDEM) and spread the love. Have meetings with stakeholders (even informal ones, like the Summit Dinner).
-
zinid
how to post stickers?
-
Guus
yes, the SCAM workgroup has stickers and leaflets and stuff, to be used in XSF activies like I described above.
-
Ge0rG
Guus: the XSF is doing that for 15 years, and we still have shitty clients and servers ;)
-
Guus
SCAM will (and has) happily send those out to people that are hosting such events.
-
Guus
Ge0rG: There is much that the XSF can (and is in process of) improve: the XEPs were completely outdating up until recently, the Obsevatory is still gone, the wiki and webpage have shown outdated information for a very long time, etc etc.
-
Guus
Ge0rG: getting that in order won't magically fix things, but it will surely facilitate - and it is stuff that we can do _now_, without needing to discuss what other activities we might want to spin up.
-
Guus
We're already stretched - adding more work won't improve things.
-
Ge0rG
Guus: indeed, you are right.
-
Guus
as a side-note: perhaps we should rename the 'experimental' status of a XEP. One of the recurring criticisms that I read is "Pretty-standard-feature XYZ has a XEP that is only "experimental"!
-
SouL
Yes, that's true.
-
Guus
it's just window dressing, but sometimes, that makes a difference.
-
Ge0rG
"draft" isn't much better either.
-
Ge0rG
Some XEPs live their whole life in "draft"
-
mathieui
Guus, what we need to do is either make the XEP status reflect real world perception, or add another status that does
-
mathieui
Ge0rG, did I mention that 0059 is still draft?
-
Guus
mathieui: I agree.
-
Ge0rG
0045 is fifteen years now, and still in Draft.
-
Ge0rG
There are probably XEP-0045 implementing developers younger than that.
-
Flow
That's why I think we should find a better name for Draft before thinking about what to do with experimental
-
Zash
"Work in progress", "Almost done", "Done" ? :)
-
Ge0rG
"Broken", "Stale" and "Rusty".
-
Flow
Zash: Doesn't actually sound that bad
-
Ge0rG
Zash: replace the last one with "Carved in Stone"
-
Zash
FINAL wait that's what it's called
-
MattJ
Skip that, jump to "Obsolete"
-
Zash
Hah
-
Zash
"Living document" -> "Dead document"
-
MattJ
+1
-
MattJ
Welcome to the internet
-
Zash
"Request For Comments"
-
zinid
what I personally would like to see is how many implementations support the XEP, and probably range the XEPs in this order
-
zinid
this is only what makes sense, because even Final can be implemented nowhere
-
Zash
zinid: Define support. Which leads back to the whole test suite thing.
-
zinid
Zash: claiming support is ok, even partial
-
Zash
Pretty sure Final requires two implementation.
-
Zash
s
-
Ge0rG
Zash: also goat blood sacrifices
-
Zash
Or was it Draft?
-
Zash
I forget
-
zinid
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0009.html
-
zinid
this is final
-
zinid
where is it implemented?
-
Zash
Version 2.0 (2002-12-09) Per a vote of the Jabber Council, changed status to Final. (psa)
-
SouL
Could 'Subject to changes' be used for 'experimental', for example?
-
SouL
Or we should use just a word?
-
zinid
SouL: I think every XEP should be "subject to changes", we have namespace bumps
-
zinid
the only difference is probability
-
zinid
so "in development" and "more or less stable" is enough
-
zinid
dunno why there so many gradations
-
Zash
Experimental = "In active development"
-
zinid
still says nothing for me, I need to see where it's implemented
-
Zash
When it stops being in *active* development it goes into deferred
-
Zash
Similar to how IETF drafts expire after some months.
-
Zash
Should the XSF try to keep track of implementation status?
-
zinid
why not?
-
zinid
I don't think this is a lot of work
-
zinid
only creating some form
-
zinid
where everyone can submit
-
Zash
Periodic calls for experience?
-
zinid
no matter, something that would work without tons of pain
-
Ge0rG
What about a "compliance badge" that can be assigned after completing the compliance suite.
-
Zash
Maybe when things go deferred, send out a survey thing asking if anyone has been working on an implementation?
-
Ge0rG
This client fulfills [Jabber Gold Premium]
-
Guus
I've just posted on standards@ about the XEP status name change. I'm interested to see what others think of this
-
Guus
with that, I'm disappearing into the world of managers, deadlines and stale coffee.
-
MattJ
Don't do it!
-
zinid
Zash: "send out a survey" <-- where to send it?
-
Ge0rG
Mandatory JIDs everywhere!
-
Zash
The standards list
-
zinid
I think not so many people are in active conversation with XSF (list, chatroom, etc)
-
zinid
I almost never see Gajim devs in the list
-
zinid
maybe they are here?
-
Zash
Actually, I think the core of the proposal is to send out a call for experience along with the deferred message.
-
zinid
nah, I was suggesting to track the number of implementation right in front of XEP title or so
-
Ge0rG
Sounds like a task for a web service.
-
Zash
Figuring out if a XEP became inactive because everyone already implemented it or because nobody implemented it would probably be good.
-
Ge0rG
Zash: isn't that what "Final" vs. "Obsolete" is for?
-
Zash
Ge0rG: It's "Which direction should this Experimental XEP go?"
-
goffi
didn't follow the whole discussion, but about deferred, we may have nothing to add to a XEP, but waiting for implementation or something else before asking for move to draft. It would be nice to be able to do an update without modification, just to show it's not abandonned at all.
-
zinid
Ge0rG: a really simple submitting form is enough, which will put numbers in the database for displaying, I don't think this is brutally hard
-
Zash
There exists survey tools, if someone wants to automate it that way.
-
Ge0rG
zinid: web forms will be immediately overrun by spammers.
-
zinid
well, using existing tools is preferable of course
-
zinid
sigh
-
zinid
how others do this, cannot imagine
-
Wiktor
for the record, tracking progress for OMEMO is one github repository: https://omemo.top/
-
Zash
Could be as simple as adding "Have you implemented this? Send comments plz." on https://github.com/xsf/xsf-tools/blob/7628fe8610e3d7f2247e5e7634bbf6c754c2d033/xeputils/mail.py#L114-L125
-
mathieui
zinid, gajim devs are not in there, no
-
zinid
that's pitty because this is one of the most popular desktop client (although not everyone like it)
-
zinid
and we don't hear their opinion
-
Guus
so, get them in here :)
-
goffi
mathieui: Asterix is writing from time to time on @standard
-
zinid
we cannot force every developer joining this room or the list
-
Guus
Make them an offer they cannot refuse ;)
-
mathieui
the issue with gajim devs is that they really are busy (it’s mostly lovetox these days, with asterix showing up from time to time)
-
zinid
what I want to say is that we shouldn't expect lots of responses from developers and drawing conclusions based on received responses
-
Ge0rG
zinid: do you have a better proposal?
-
zinid
Ge0rG: tracking existing implementations is a good start in making some decision (such as deferring for example)
-
edhelas
maybe we could first track what XEPs are implemented in which clients
-
Ge0rG
zinid: but how?
-
edhelas
it's not that hard https://nl.movim.eu/?about#caps_widget_tab
-
zinid
Ge0rG: are we going circles? :) submitting form?
-
zinid
the point is everyone can submit
-
zinid
so even if developers are busy their users can submit
-
zinid
another advantage is of course everyone can decide about XEP popularity by implementations number
-
zinid
instead of experimental/draft/etc nonsense
-
Zash
Everyone implementing something doesn't make it good.
-
Zash
Good things don't usually win popularity contests in my experience.
-
zinid
really? in the context of standards?
-
zinid
which means the standard is crap? :)
-
zinid
do you remember such situation in xmpp?
-
mathieui
edhelas, caps widget is not enough
-
Zash
Good enough combined with timeing on the other hand.
-
Zash
Or marketing.
-
edhelas
the issue is, more than asking dev to be aware of new XEPs, is also to push them to deprecate or remove old ones
-
edhelas
mam:tmp, vcard_temp, Private XML…
-
Zash
vcard-temp and private xml are good enough, but not really that good
-
Zash
Multiple versions of the same XEP is a somewhat different issue.
-
jonasw
back
-
jonasw
goffi, if a XEP doesn’t have implementations, moving it to Deferred is a sane thing. There must be something wrong with it: either it has issues deterring implementors or it is not needed at all. Void updates are not going to make any of this go away.
-
jonasw
zinid, if users submit on behalf of their software, we’ll be getting incomplete and inaccurate data, that’s worse than no data.
-
jonasw
(e.g. "does this client support Jingle File Transfer?" "well yes of course, I can send files", but in fact the file transfer is using HTTP Upload)
-
zinid
jonasw: why would we have inaccurate data?
-
zinid
I don't say it would be 100% accurate
-
Ge0rG
zinid: because users are clueless.
-
jonasw
what Ge0rG says
-
Ge0rG
zinid: it would be 40% accurate and there would be multiple submissions.
-
zinid
Ge0rG: a clueless user who knows what xsf and xep is?
-
Zash
https://www.zash.se/xmpp-clients.html inaccurate!
-
jonasw
zinid, sure
-
Ge0rG
User often already fail at spelling a client name correctly.
-
Zash
If clients put XEPs into their marketing, then users will be somewhat aware of them.
-
jonasw
Guus, regarding donating money to client organizations: there are enough clients out there which do not have an umbrella organization
-
zinid
then what makes you think a developer is responding on your last calls?
-
jonasw
some of which are doing great work in the UX department (I heard dino is nice)
-
jonasw
accepting donations is tricky
-
Ge0rG
I'm working on a system for people with technical background, and they fail to properly spell their own name.
-
zinid
maybe that's a clueless user responding
-
jonasw
zinid, you got me thinking that we sohlud probably issue CFE and LC to the developers list too
-
zinid
jonasw: you need to find developers there first :)
-
Ge0rG
zinid: I think you just volunteered to create a web form, collect data from users, developers or goats, and to process it in a way that's suitable and useful to the XSF, thanks!
-
jonasw
khekhe
-
zinid
Ge0rG: sure, and you go develop ejabberd
-
mathieui
fair trade
-
jonasw
tough choice
-
jonasw
erlang vs. web development
-
goffi
jonasw: deferred != no implementation. I'm author of XEP-0355 and XEP-0356, they have 2 implementations (at least), and just didn't need to update them
-
Ge0rG
zinid: sorry, I've got my own client to develop, and I'm submitting issues for a bunch of others.
-
goffi
and they are deferred
-
goffi
anyway I now need to update them so it's not a big deal.
-
jonasw
goffi, if there are two implementations, you should ask for advancement to Draft.
-
goffi
jonasw: now, because I need more tests
-
goffi
too early for that
-
Ge0rG
zinid: but while you are here, you can solve my ejabber MUC bug: all MSN clients are kicked when one of the MSN clients sends an error to the MUC.
-
goffi
s/now/no/
-
Guus
jonasw: clients without organiations typically have one developer. Donating then often is done in the form of temporary commisions ("can I hire you to build this-and-this in the client"). Nothing dangerous about that.
-
jonasw
Guus, it is massively tricky if you are employed elsewhere
-
jonasw
I am kind-of glad that we didn’t get into the Prototype Fund, because I didn’t want the headache of coordinating with my employer and insurance etc.
-
jonasw
(maybe that’s only a german thing that these things are complicated)
-
zinid
Ge0rG: I cannot drop my tasks and fix your issue, create a github issue maybe? if there is a bug it will be fixed quite fast
-
Ge0rG
zinid: I'm not the server operator, so I don't have logs.
-
Guus
jonas: true, that can be tricky. For me personally, it's not been a problem, as when I was employed, I've always made sure to have a clause in my contract that allowed for it. Now that I'm self-employed, things are even easier. But yes, it does require some planning.
-
jonasw
Guus, I don’t even know how such a clause would need to look like, really.
-
Guus
perhaps we could facilitate that planning in some way, shape, or form - simply by letting people interested get in contact with people with experience.
-
zinid
Ge0rG: I can only say I will check if I don't forget (like always)
-
Ge0rG
zinid: also you seem to have enough time to make proposals here and on standards@ .P
-
zinid
Ge0rG: nice try :)
-
Ge0rG
zinid: you know, I've once waited multiple years on an ejabberd ticket. Then I gave up and switched to prosody.
-
Guus
jonasw: from exprience, every employment contract that I signed (which have been 4) had a non-compete. When discussing the contract, I'd mention: "but i do work on ... which I'd like to continue doing" after which we had some back-and-forth, and a clause was added.
-
Guus
I might've been lucky, unsure, but it always worked out.
-
zinid
Ge0rG: and now waiting years on prosody tickets, ok
-
Guus
(and it has the added bonus of having HR work out the details of the clause :P )
-
jonasw
Guus, right, will take that into account when I get my employment contract soon-ish
-
mathieui
Guus, my employment contract has a "all your personal work belong to us, even outside of work time", and I ignore it because it’s illegal, but meh
-
jonasw
mathieui, wtf
-
SouL
I thought they would do that only in the USA
-
Ge0rG
zinid: EJAB-532 took four years for a community workaround. I've got two more years to go with prosody before reaching that timeout.
-
Guus
mathieui: I don't recommend knowingly accept a contract and disobey it, even if it's an invalid contract.
-
Ge0rG
Guus: sometimes that's better than not having an income.
-
Guus
i've always had my feedback on a contract draft addressed by HR - but again, that might be lucky.
-
zinid
Ge0rG: so what is your conclusion? every ticket takes years to resolve? this is not true of course, you can check dynamics on github
-
Guus
Ge0rG: I was assuming that it wasn't even discussed before signing it.
-
Guus
Ge0rG: if it *was* discussed (but still disallowed), then I'd more so advice against breaking it!
-
Ge0rG
Guus: I've had a talk to my now-boss regarding illegal parts of the contract, and he said "we've got that in all contracts, we won't make an exception", so I shrugged it off.
-
Guus
Ge0rG: I might have been lucky with my employers then. Might be a cultural thingy difference between the types of organisations we work for.
-
daniel
And this is what happens if you don't have unions
-
jonasw
daniel, does conversations.im already have a union? :)
-
Guus
the boss wouldn't allow it! ;)
- Guus ducks, runs
-
Ge0rG
daniel: don't go Set Theory on us!
-
mimi89999
What?
-
Ge0rG
unions, intersections, etc.
-
jonasw
now we’re at traffic managment!
- mathieui bangs the on-topic gavel
- jonasw moves out to xmpp@
-
Guus
who can give SCAM-wg access to the XSF twitter account?
-
goffi
mathieui: for my last job in France, I've made the company bosses sign a paper saying they knew that I was working on my project on my free time, and wouldn't claim any right on it.
-
goffi
mathieui: anyway, I don't think they have any right on what you're doing on your freetime, whatever the contract is saying (but I'm not a lawyer of course)
-
pep.
Zash> If clients put XEPs into their marketing, then users will be somewhat aware of them. < I'm thinking more and more users shouldn't be aware of the impl. details (i.e., XMPP). But maybe it was sarcastic and I didn't catch it
-
zinid
pep.: true
-
edhelas
well depends to who you're doing "marketing"
-
edhelas
when I'm doing release notes I can go into lots of XMPP details but I prefer most of the time to stay with "upload files feature" with a reference to the XEP than explaining the whole stack
-
pep.
edhelas, sure
-
Zash
Go to various clients web pages, search for XEP, count matches.
-
pep.
I'm not talking about devs, nor poezio (console client) users
-
Ge0rG
I think there was recently a proposal for a formal client description language, including XEPs.
-
jonasw
indeed
-
jonasw
that’d also work for gathering implementation stats by the way
-
edhelas
jonasw are you talking about https://github.com/movim/moxl#xmpp-support or https://github.com/dino/dino/wiki/Supported-XEPs ?
-
jonasw
neither I think
-
jonasw
let me get you a link
-
jonasw
edhelas, https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-August/033123.html
-
edhelas
okay :)
-
jonasw
goffi, care to reply to daves email on standards@ with your example?
-
jonasw
I think it’s relevant to the discussion
-
goffi
jonasw: sure
-
dwd
goffi, '355/356? If they "don't need updating", then they're surely ready for advancement?
-
mathieui
dwd, "I now need to update them"
-
goffi
dwd: I have now updates to put. The thing it take time to have implementation, and it take time to implementation to mature. For instance in the case of 355 I've realized that disco items were not handled correctly in my Pubsub service, and this need a slight change in the XEP. I'm using this Pubsub service with XEP-0355 for more than one year, but I've just realized this was missing a couple of weeks ago, and I wanted to test implementation before modifying the XEP.
-
dwd
Either the XEP *is* expected to change in an unstable manner, or else it's ready for advancement. If it's expected to change in an unstable manner but isn't being actively edited, then it gets deferred after a year. Which part of this are you objecting to?
-
goffi
dwd: I'm not objecting to anything, I just say that the XEPs are deferred but not abandonned, just on hold. I'm writing an email on standard@ to explain that.
-
SamWhited
> I don't think this is a lot of work Yes it is. No matter what the thing is, if someone says those words they're wrong or they would have done it already.
-
dwd
SamWhited, I don't even know what you['re quoting, and I agree.
-
SamWhited
dwd: Yah, those words were said earlier (about something that I suspect editors would end up having to do).
-
SamWhited
It made me cringe. I still think our process is too complicated and that we've already forgotten about it again because we have new editors that are rosie eyed and not burnt out yet so work is getting done and we'll ignore the problem until they get burnt out and we get new editors again.
-
SamWhited
But it applies in general too.
-
dwd
SamWhited, I think our process has acrued a lot of cruft and assumptions and special cases that it shouldn't have (and isn't even documented to have).
-
SamWhited
dwd: Indeed, it needs some love.
-
dwd
SamWhited, I think understanding what it was meant to be would be useful. The fact people think we need a stage before Experimental suggests to me that it's very poorly understood.
-
SamWhited
dwd: I agree
-
jonasw
dwd, the question is whether that lack of understanding comes from lack of documentation, lack of active education or something else
-
jonasw
in any case, if newcomers or people taking only a quick look don’t understand it, it’s a PR problem we should fix. and that often has to do with naming
-
dwd
jonasw, I don't think it's well documented, and I don't think people read that document very closely. In addition, this problem has become acute because we've lost a chunk of our institutional knowledge - lots of long-term (ie, decades not months) community people have drifted away over the past year or two.
-
dwd
jonasw, There's other problems with our process too, like no (real) IPR policy, and no appeals process. Both block us from being "Open Standards" in the openstand.org sense.
-
SamWhited
Actually, I agree and disagree. I agree that "draft" is poorly misunderstood and think that we should rename it (it doesn't "sound like" the name implies "you should implement this, it's done"). I think experimental is fine and people probably do understand it (it's experimental and you should only implement it if you're comfortable implementing things that might change). The problem with experimental isn't one of naming, it's that we leave things in experimental too long.
-
Kev
"it's experimental and you should only implement it if you're comfortable implementing things that might change" The same is true of Draft - they *might* change, we just try not to.
-
Kev
(Actually, that's not true, we try not to in ways that are backward incompatible)
-
dwd
SamWhited, I agree with you. But that doesn't explain people who want us to have a stage before Experimental, or who want XEPs to meet certain quality gates before Experimental, and so on.
-
SamWhited
s/that might/that are likely to/
-
SamWhited
dwd: Ah yah, fair. I do think that's misguided. I do think a basic quality gate is fine though, it should at least be possible for me to implement it before it goes to experimental.
-
dwd
Kev, We generally don't change Experimental in ways that aren't backwards compatible - we're just (more) open to abandoning the namespace and minting a new one with namespace versioning.
-
Kev
I think 'Not obviously stupid and not duplicating existing stuff with no clear differentiator' is the check I used to do for +1ing Experimental.
-
Kev
dwd: Changing the required namespace is about as backwards incompatible as you can get.
-
Kev
When talking about compatibility of the document, not of a particular namespace within it.
-
dwd
Kev, Well, sorta. The old namespace still works, nothing is broken. But yes, it's a clean break rather than maintaining interop.
-
SamWhited
Added a card for board to discuss the rename.
-
SamWhited
And one on council to make a recommendation.
-
Guus
renaming draft to stable and striving to not keep things in 'experimental' for to long would be big wins, I think.
-
jonasw
I agree
-
Guus
if, on top of that, we can apply structural simplifications to the entire process, even better. Suggestions?
-
jonasw
I’m currently fine with the XEP editing process, mostly because I automated the parts which can be automated (and which I had contact with, there’s some stuff I haven’t done yet, like Last Call)
-
Guus
jonasw: but you fall in Sams 'new-and-not-yet-burned-out' category :)
-
jonasw
maybe
-
jonasw
the level of automation helps against burning out though
-
jonasw
needs moar autmoation though
-
Zash
Always moar automation
-
jonasw
I need to figure out how to make a github bot which can post metadata of all touched XEPs in a PR
-
Guus
absolutely, but automation needs maintenance too.
-
jonasw
it is annoying to have to look up the status and authors of a XEP manually inside a diff
-
Guus
I'm heading out again, but I'd be very interested in hearing practical improvements that we can make to the process.
-
jonasw
something which detects when a namespace bump must happen would be amazing
-
jonasw
but I doubt that’s possible
-
jonasw
(maybe something which warns when RFC 2119 words are touched)
-
Kev
Which doesn't imply that it needs a namespace bump.
-
jonasw
I know
-
jonasw
but it’s still something good to see quickly when processing a PR
-
jonasw
I’m bad at reading diffs
-
Zash
jonasw: Any diffs or XEP XML diffs in particular?
-
jonasw
Zash, XEP diffs are especially bad because of long lines
-
SamWhited
I can read diffs fine. I can barely read XEP XML when it's not a diff.
-
jonasw
or alternatively, because of line-broken text
-
Zash
Anyone wanna continue my work on turning xeps into text/markdown for simpler diffs?
-
jonasw
Zash, dump the code somewhere, I may take a look
-
jonasw
doesn’t help much when viewing diffs on the repository online though
-
SamWhited
Jokes aside, as much as I like the idea I don't think we need more tooling, more things to maintain, more stuff to break, or more things you have to know about and learn to use.
-
SamWhited
Which is a long way of saying what jonasw just said
- jonasw blinks
-
jonasw
I’m not sure how I said that
-
SamWhited
> doesn’t help much when viewing diffs on the repository online though
-
jonasw
ah
-
jonasw
well, actually, in the back of my head I mentally added it to the list to integrate in a possible github app for which I have an idea
-
jonasw
I need to take a look at the effort involved. Something which is geared towards XEP PRs and can do a great deal of the initial triaging process automatically and/or simplify the triaging by putting all relevant information in once place would be amazing.
-
Zash
jonasw: https://gist.github.com/Zash/372591d4c61b6af70d810a78bd1af12d
-
jonasw
Zash, can you dump a quick list of todos below that?
-
Zash
jonasw: I think the main blocker for me is that I don't know how to proceed, or what to do with it.
-
jonasw
from what I can tell it converts xep-xml to markdown, right?
-
Zash
The Lua thing does that, yes. One shell script to normalize its input and one that picks two versions of a file out of git and compares them with the previous scripts.
-
Guus
SamWhited, so what _does_ help?
-
SamWhited
Guus: What does what help?
-
Guus
You earlier referred to a benefit of making 'the process' less complex. I agree with pretty much everything that you wrote, but I'm still not sure what a pragmatic improvement would be.
-
SamWhited
Guus: I wrote a long email about this actually, I will forward it to you if I can find it. There's also a trello where I put a few of the potential improvements
-
SamWhited
Some of them have been done, it's definitely a bit nicer now
-
Guus
if there are sensible improvements left, by all means, lets implement them.
-
Guus
let's put things on the radar of those that are to decide on things.
-
SamWhited
The only two things left that I think we could reasonably do are automating email (sounds like jonasw is working on that a bit, we'd just have to integrate it with the build) and automating archival of XEPs as part of the build (I still have no idea if we have an attic or how it works in the new docker land, so if that still needs to be fixed it might end up being a lot more work)
-
Guus
ah, okay, that's automation. I though you were referring to procedural changes (eg: make XEP-0001 less complex, or something in that nature).
-
Zash
A thing that I've wondered about is, is there a good way to XEP versions to commits?✎ -
SamWhited
Oh I see, sorry
-
Zash
A thing that I've wondered about is, is there a good way to map* XEP versions to commits? ✏
-
Guus
not to say that the automation bit wouldn't be wildly helpful.
-
SamWhited
Zash: not really; I was going to suggest some git foo, but apparently some XEPs have multiple revisions with the same version or where a version ended up going backwards somehow.
-
SamWhited
So maybe we need to improve CI as well
-
Guus
SamWhited: maybe it's worth manually revamping those XEPs, for the greater good?
-
SamWhited
Guus: Yah, I'll do it for the one I noticed and add a task to add a CI step to find any others (and then fix those if there are any more)
-
jonasw
SamWhited, yes, there’s a workin gattic✎ -
jonasw
SamWhited, yes, there’s a working attic ✏
-
jonasw
I forgot to mention that there’s a script to copy changed XEPs into the attic, again based on xeplist.xml
-
Guus
awesome! So only the email bit remains an issue for now?
-
jonasw
not really
-
jonasw
I just want to test the tooling a bit more on real-world cases
-
jonasw
then it can easily be integrated into the deploy step on the server
-
jonasw
at least I think I fulfilled the wishlist I was given by Kev to make that happen easily
-
Guus
so, you're saying that both issues are well under way to being fixed?
-
jonasw
indeed
-
SamWhited
Fantastic :)
-
Guus
more awesome!
-
Guus
Sam, I think you need to come up with a new list of things that aught to be improved :)
-
Guus
I'm going to pick up the kids
-
Guus
ttyl
-
zinid
Ge0rG: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/commit/e1efd291568aae29ac06f507c8b0bbf60b65d91a
-
zinid
Ge0rG: there is another MSN-related bug reported by edhelas, hehe: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2007
-
edhelas
I'm keeping the ejabberd team busy these days
-
zinid
:D
-
zinid
edhelas: your bug is surprisingly harder to fix, unlike Ge0rG's one
-
zinid
due to shitty code of mod_muc
-
edhelas
:p
-
Ge0rG
zinid: thanks very much.
-
Ge0rG
Holger: time to git-pull conversations.im! ;) ^ https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/commit/e1efd291568aae29ac06f507c8b0bbf60b65d91a
-
zinid
Ge0rG: Holger is working on this
-
zinid
he's busy porting his patches to this new ejabberd version (17.x is a lot different)
-
edhelas
zinid I never report easy bugs, I prefer the tricky ones :p
-
mimi89999
zinid: What else than the pubsub patch?
-
zinid
mimi89999: are you about Holger? Stuff regarding registration and so on
-
mimi89999
Ah, the things really specific to conversations.im
-
zinid
yep
-
Tobias
https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/
-
jonasw
hm
-
jonasw
nice, but not really applicable to XMPP, is it?
-
jonasw
you’d still need to figure out which server to ask and you’d still need some directory trusted for mapping some_identifier -> JID
-
Holger
Oh yay, zinid is the best.
-
Holger
mimi89999: Yes conversations.im-specific things ... and dirty hacks :-)
-
SouL
We all love dirty hacks.
-
pep.
No we don't, but they stick around :(✎ -
pep.
No we don't, and they stick around :( ✏