XSF Discussion - 2017-09-27

  1. Tobias has left
  2. tim@boese-ban.de has left
  3. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  4. tim@boese-ban.de has left
  5. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  6. tim@boese-ban.de has left
  7. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  8. ralphm has left
  9. Tobias has joined
  10. la|r|ma has joined
  11. waqas has joined
  12. jere has left
  13. jere has joined
  14. mimi89999 has left
  15. la|r|ma has left
  16. Valerian has joined
  17. Valerian has left
  18. Valerian has joined
  19. lskdjf has joined
  20. Guus has left
  21. Guus has joined
  22. tux has joined
  23. nyco has left
  24. nyco has joined
  25. uc has joined
  26. jere has left
  27. jere has joined
  28. Yagiza has joined
  29. Valerian has left
  30. Guus has left
  31. Guus has joined
  32. Guus has left
  33. Valerian has joined
  34. daniel has left
  35. daniel has joined
  36. Valerian has left
  37. tux has left
  38. tux has joined
  39. Guus has joined
  40. Valerian has joined
  41. Guus has left
  42. Valerian has left
  43. Guus has joined
  44. jere has joined
  45. Guus has left
  46. Guus has joined
  47. Guus has left
  48. Zash has left
  49. Guus has joined
  50. Guus has left
  51. Guus has joined
  52. Guus has left
  53. SamWhited has left
  54. daniel has left
  55. daniel has joined
  56. Flow has joined
  57. Flow has joined
  58. daniel has left
  59. daniel has joined
  60. SouL has left
  61. Guus has joined
  62. Guus has left
  63. Guus has joined
  64. ralphm has left
  65. Guus has left
  66. Guus has joined
  67. ralphm has left
  68. ralphm has left
  69. daniel has left
  70. daniel has joined
  71. waqas has left
  72. tim@boese-ban.de has left
  73. Martin has joined
  74. daniel has left
  75. daniel has left
  76. daniel has left
  77. emxp has joined
  78. stefandxm has left
  79. daniel has left
  80. stefandxm has joined
  81. Ge0rG has left
  82. daniel has left
  83. daniel has left
  84. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  85. stefandxm has left
  86. jcbrand has joined
  87. ralphm has joined
  88. daniel has left
  89. daniel has left
  90. zinid has left
  91. stefandxm has joined
  92. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  93. daniel has left
  94. goffi has joined
  95. goffi has joined
  96. ralphm has left
  97. daniel has left
  98. daniel has left
  99. daniel has left
  100. ralphm has left
  101. daniel has left
  102. daniel has left
  103. goffi has joined
  104. goffi has joined
  105. la|r|ma has joined
  106. Kev has left
  107. Kev has left
  108. emxp Guus, Ge0rG: Coming back to the 'new' Foundations discussion. My intention is a) focus on important issues in the xmpp comunity in general b) maybe put paid devs on these task or specific clients which are likey to improve the UX of xmpp in general (yes, money is an issue i know) c) build a platform/website to show what xmpp can do for standard users who never heard of xmpp before d) may provide general information about the network (number of users, how does xmpp work etc) - you get what my intention is? I dont talk about if that's likely to happen. I ask whether is the right way?
  109. lumi has joined
  110. Guus emxp: I don't know. There likely is not one right way. If you see value in it, by all means.
  111. Ge0rG emxp: (a) yes, 100%. I'm trying that for a while now. (b) not only money is an issue, fair distribution of the money is as well. (c) I'm not sure people are reading such websites, but it might attract some nerds / multipliers, so yeah! I wish we could host it on jabber.org... (d) that's actually hard. The XSF is trying to, but you can hardly get reliable data from a federated system like XMPP
  112. daniel has left
  113. daniel has left
  114. daniel has left
  115. Tobias has left
  116. daniel has left
  117. Tobias has left
  118. daniel If you are good at fund raising by all means go ahead. I don't think developers will say no to money
  119. daniel Ironically fund raising is a full time job. So as soon as you start you'll have to raise enough money to at least pay your own salary
  120. Tobias has left
  121. Flow has joined
  122. lskdjf has joined
  123. daniel has left
  124. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  125. Ge0rG daniel: actually, to pay for two people.
  126. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  127. Ge0rG ...so that you have one effective developer
  128. daniel My personal approach is to create a sustainable business model. I know that's quite revolutionary idea in today's world. But you it might be more... sustainable...
  129. zinid sustainable model is to get hired :D
  130. mathieui daniel, did you think about pitching your idea to a VC to get funding? :p
  131. daniel zinid, only if that company itself has a sustainable business model. i'm sure the matrix developer can agree
  132. Martin has left
  133. Martin has joined
  134. daniel has left
  135. Ge0rG I've heard that Erlang an C++ developers are in high demand...
  136. emxp daniel, Ge0rG: For me there is no direct discussion of fairness. the foundation can act transparent, only invest in open source code and only spend money to task/work they all agree to. based on some principles - opensource, leading for xmpp, of intrest for xmpp community etc.. If people dont agree to those projects, they wont spend. so the foundation is forced to define task which are in the interest of most xmpp users somehow... or they can define task, the necessary effort, and let people donate and offer like 10-20% of the necessary amount. It's better to have a central plattform to collect task, than wait for third party aproaches maybe
  137. daniel has left
  138. emxp I think most people, dont like to donate, if they have no idea, about where the money goes
  139. Kev Pushing only OSS projects sounds like a Really Bad Idea, given where so much of the XSF's expertise and effort has come from over the years.
  140. mathieui Kev, yeah, although I can see the point if people are donating the funding
  141. jubalh has joined
  142. emxp mathieui: what do you mean exactly
  143. emxp Kev: Just an example. What software would you suggest to support?
  144. Zash Some may find it weird to donate to commercial projects.
  145. Kev Ah, this is a separate 'pay for software' foundation? I thought you meant the XSF.
  146. Kev If it's some 'pay for opensource XMPP foundation', it's fine to focus on open source.
  147. Kev Zash: Sure, so it has to be both non-commercial and open source? :)
  148. Ge0rG Kev: I think that OSS is the only way to ensure that the software won't just fold up and die at any moment in time after or before the funding stops.
  149. Kev Ge0rG: I don't think OSS ensures that at all. But I understand what you mean.
  150. Ge0rG Kev: with closed source, there is no way at all to achieve that.
  151. Ge0rG Kev: and there are many viable business models around OSS, so I don't think this is about offending commercial closed-source providers.
  152. Kev Also not true, but it's harder to get anyone to agree to it.
  153. Ge0rG Kev: it's always hard to agree on how to spend money. Your first remark is a good example of that.
  154. fp-tester has left
  155. fp-tester has joined
  156. Kev Ge0rG: If the business model is viable, we don't need a new foundation to be fundraising to inject money, I suppose? :)
  157. Ge0rG Kev: so we need to focus our money on non-viable business models. Wow, that sounds like a very awful framing of paying for non-commercial OSS development.
  158. Kev I don't have any problem with someone running a "raise money and we'll give it to projects" org, BTW. I misunderstood and thought it was suggested to do it through the XSF, which I disagree with.
  159. Kev I think the prospect is filled with difficulties, but as long as it's not the XSF that's shouldering them, more people working in XMPP is good :)
  160. Ge0rG The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of resurrecting the Jabber Software Foundation.
  161. zinid has left
  162. zinid has left
  163. mathieui start writign JEPs
  164. Ge0rG Which is my second "it used to be more appropriate in the past" epiphany after "message routing was better before Carbons, and we should try to get back to it"
  165. zinid has joined
  166. mathieui starts writing JEPs
  167. Kev Routing was better before carbons?
  168. Zash Ge0rG: I suddenly have this urge to tell you something along the lines of "I told you so"
  169. Ge0rG Kev: I've been pondering about how to improve the message routing mess we are currently in, and my proposal for a future XMPP would be this: - messages to the bare JID are persistent, routed to all online resoures and archived - messages to a full JID are ephemeral, only routed to the target full JID (or bounced) and not stored.
  170. Ge0rG - resource locking must be burned with fire.
  171. Ge0rG and this is very close to XMPP message routing rules pre-Carbons
  172. Kev I'm fine with that in principle, although we're not ready for "resource locking must be burned with fire." because of not having a sensible caps story yet, but we could get there. We need to anyway, because of carbons.
  173. Ge0rG Except there is no sane way to get from here to there.
  174. Ge0rG Kev: because of carbons and archives.
  175. MattJ There are ways though
  176. Ge0rG and race conditions.
  177. Kev The idea of not doing full-JID fallback is sensible enough, in a MAM world.
  178. Kev But only if you archive. Hmm.
  179. Ge0rG Kev: if we make full-JID synonymous with ephemeral, there is no need for fallback.
  180. fp-tester has left
  181. Ge0rG But reassigning the semantics of full-JID is a tough call.
  182. Kev Except for requiring a forklift upgrade.
  183. fp-tester has joined
  184. Ge0rG Kev: I'm open to less radical suggestions.
  185. Kev I was trying to think through whether it was possible for a 'modern' client on a 'modern' server to accept messages in 'old' style, but still do sensible things.
  186. Ge0rG Kev: but I think it's important that we analyze the situation we are in, determine that it's a huge mess, and have a vision of where we want to be in X years.
  187. Kev I guess there is.
  188. Kev If we in some way mark sessions as being xmpp 1 or xmpp 2.
  189. Zash Design from the top instead of the bottom?
  190. Ge0rG Kev: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0 ;)
  191. Kev Ge0rG: I don't disagree with that. I've been trying to do this for some time.
  192. Kev (that being working a way out of the mess)
  193. Ge0rG and I'd love that vision to be "XMPP(-IM) is a transport protocol to synchronize a message history between a user's devices on login and live.
  194. Ge0rG plus what we have with presence, that's working well more or less.
  195. Kev I think a long session at the next summit would be justified.
  196. Ge0rG Zash: yeah.
  197. Ge0rG Kev: +1 to that, though I don't know yet if I can attend.
  198. Kev Or a fully-virtual summit.
  199. Zash Ge0rG: Yeah, I too have this feeling that we've built a bunch of things that we don't know how they are supposed to fit togeather.
  200. Kev Or just a video chat between interested parties. Whatever.
  201. Kev I don't think IM/mail is the most productive way to work through such a core issue.
  202. Kev (But I could be wrong)
  203. Ge0rG Kev: I think that whoever is going to attend a live meeting needs to understand the problem first.
  204. Zash FOSDEM isn't too far away?
  205. Ge0rG Zash: it's not just a feeling, it's our current situation. Have a look at the interop between MAM and MUC, MUC and Carbons, etc.
  206. Ge0rG Even presence in MUC is a challenge.
  207. Ge0rG And the current situation is sufficiently f***ed up that we can't fix it by piling more protocols on top.
  208. Kev I think needing to understand the problem is why high-bandwidth is useful.
  209. Kev I'm not at all convinced that it can't be fixed by building on top, though.
  210. Ge0rG I'm pondering about writing something long-ish to explain the problem as I see it and possible solution directions
  211. Zash Ge0rG: MAM, MUC, Carbons, SM, Push, CSI etc
  212. daniel has left
  213. Ge0rG Zash: yeah.
  214. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  215. Kev All your examples there included MUC.
  216. Zash And the number of things involved has grown to be more numerous than what fits in my head
  217. Kev Binning MUC and replacing it might be an idea...
  218. Ge0rG Kev: what Zash said.
  219. Ge0rG Kev: how should Carbons and MAM interact with 0184 ACKs for example?
  220. Kev I think they're all necessary. Whether they're called individual things, or xmpp2core just gets really long.
  221. Kev You need archiving, you need groupchat, you need routing rules, you need app-level acks, you need push, you need bandwidth management...
  222. Ge0rG Kev: all those things are needed, yes.
  223. Ge0rG Kev: that's not the question. The question is how to make them work together.
  224. Ge0rG They are all individual patches for individual problems, and they interop badly.
  225. stefandxm has left
  226. Kev I'm far from saying everything's perfect. I challenge the notion that things can't be fixed without binning the core, though.
  227. Kev And we certainly need The Big Picture sorted.
  228. Ge0rG Kev: this is not about binning the core.
  229. Ge0rG Kev: but about some of the assumptions it made that are not appropriate any more.
  230. Kev You'll remember (you won't, actually, because it was before your time :)) that I started a protoXEP for this many many years ago, but we didn't have the building blocks to solve it. It was in the days before MAM et al.
  231. Ge0rG Kev: I'm not intending to replace XMPP with JSON-REST. But I want to start from The Big Picture and see what needs to be changed to make XMPP2 work well.
  232. Martin has left
  233. Martin has joined
  234. Kev I'm very much in favour of big-picture here.
  235. emxp has joined
  236. la|r|ma has left
  237. emxp Kev: Yes, i was talking about a different organsisation and if my thoughts are senseful
  238. Zash And big-picture needs a big whiteboard! :)
  239. Kev Maybe Ge0rG should publish a Thought-A-Day on each of the problems he sees with the current state, so it's not TL;DR, and at the end of the series we've got the full picture :D
  240. jonasw Kev, I thnik he started a blog series :)
  241. Kev Odd, I thought I had planet jabber in my feed.
  242. jonasw does the xmpp.org blog federate to that?
  243. zinid I'm lost, xmpp2.0 is coming?
  244. zinid just don't use XML anymore :)
  245. Zash funny
  246. valo has left
  247. valo has joined
  248. emxp has joined
  249. zinid or JSON if that matters
  250. zinid JSON is XML of nowadays
  251. zinid kids from 2030s will laught at us again
  252. Kev has left
  253. Zash Wake me up when ASN.1 is cool again
  254. zinid never?
  255. zinid it's not modern, ya know
  256. zinid protocol buffers is THE THING
  257. Yagiza has left
  258. Ge0rG actually, protocol buffers is one of the saner protocol designs.
  259. jonasw Zash, ASN.1 over XML over JSON over HTTP over XMPP over VTEP
  260. jonasw Ge0rG, I’m not convinced by their implicit defaults.
  261. Ge0rG Kev: I've started a blog post series on "Easy XMPP", which is different. I think for this one, I'd rather go with my personal blog and the "xmpp" tag there.
  262. Ge0rG jonasw: admittedly, I haven't had a deep dive into it. But any protocol that doesn't implicitly encode data lengths and uses escapable special markers is sane for me.
  263. Zash jonasw: Considering ASN.1 being something of a schema thing, and the existence of an XML encoding of it ... I wonder if there's a JSON one yet.
  264. Ge0rG https://blog.plan99.net/its-time-to-kill-the-web-974a9fe80c89 was an awesome post showing that all the modern web protocols actually fail the same way the US telephone network did in the 70ies. Mixing of meta-data and data.
  265. Zash Make Gohper Great Again
  266. Ge0rG The author is calling it "buffer overflows" and meaning "lack of explicit buffer lengths", but it's all the same story.
  267. Zash Don't LangSec people say that that's a giant security hole too?
  268. Ge0rG Zash: that what?
  269. Ge0rG Kev: I'm just not sure if I can start with individual problems and somehow arrive at the big picture.
  270. Zash Whop's, bit got flipped in the length field and everything turned into a giant buffer overflow!
  271. Zash Something something length fields don't fit into some simpler language category?
  272. zinid Ge0rG: why not prefix length? you can parse it in parallel, unlike scanning
  273. Zash Because Heartbleed?
  274. Zash Length prefixed fields helped so much there
  275. Ge0rG Zash: the issue with heartbleed was conflicting length fields.
  276. zinid Zash: using same logic I would say don't use C then
  277. jonasw zinid, that’s a reasonable statement :-)
  278. Guus has left
  279. zinid well, yes :)
  280. Ge0rG Zash: besides, my point wasn't that old protocols are sane, just that the current ones are mad.
  281. stefandxm has joined
  282. Martin has left
  283. Martin has joined
  284. zinid yeah, like http2
  285. zinid tcp over http, wtf...
  286. Zash Gotta let Google have their optimizations
  287. zinid right, today everyone is accepting what Google suggests, to be exact, what's good for their bussiness
  288. zinid IETF is degrading
  289. SouL has left
  290. Ge0rG W3C has fallen.
  291. Ge0rG zinid: https://jacquesmattheij.com/the-web-in-2050 is for you :P
  292. daniel has left
  293. zinid Ge0rG: wait, I didn't finish reading your first article (about kill web)
  294. nyco has left
  295. nyco has joined
  296. stefandxm has left
  297. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  298. zinid Ge0rG: for the record, from your article: > The fix: All buffers should be length prefixed from database, to frontend server, to user interface. There should never be a need to scan something for magic characters to determine where it ends. Note that this requires binary protocols, formats and UI logic throughout the entire stack.
  299. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  300. Zash I forget where I read it, but you shouldn't underestimate human-readable protocols and formats. At least not for early versions. Later versions being binary might be sensible.
  301. Zash It was kinda cool way back in the day to open the XML console and see something that made sense.
  302. Zash Or View Source and reading the HTML and stuff.
  303. Zash can't do that anymore tho, not with all the minifications and whatnot.
  304. zinid Zash: yes, it was cool because there were no encryption, I used tcpflow for this ;)
  305. Holger Not sure why $length:$readable_data would be impossible though.
  306. zinid actually, there can be well-defined mechanism to dump structures in human-readable form
  307. zinid like they do for WebAssembly
  308. daniel has joined
  309. Guus has left
  310. Zash Do binary protocols usually have that tho?
  311. Zash Like, included by default and accessible?
  312. jonasw Zash, protobuf does
  313. zinid Zash: I don't think so, but it's not that hard to write rules how to dump protobuffs structures for example
  314. jonasw Zash, $homebrewbinary probably doesn’t
  315. zinid and dumping structures is trivial and not error prone (almost)
  316. zinid unlike parsing them
  317. Zash Sure sure, but text formats make it really easy to get into fiddling with things, which helps with early adoption.
  318. Zash Of course it comes back to bite you later, but still.
  319. jonasw *shrug*
  320. jonasw XML worksforme
  321. Guus has left
  322. zinid this is the same argument as Python vs Haskell
  323. zinid Python will bite you later for sure
  324. zinid duck typing accepts no excuses
  325. Zash Duckt tapeing ftw
  326. jonasw duct taping?
  327. jonasw kinky
  328. Zash DuckDuckTape?
  329. Ge0rG Holger: it's not impossible with human-readable formats, but then you end up with whitespace or newline in the wrong place and the parser freaks out :(
  330. jonasw Ge0rG, #poezio? ;-)
  331. zinid anyway, I'm relaxed, because I implemented XML codec for ejabberd, it does the same as asn.1/protobufs/etc and it works (despite everyone cries you should not validate)
  332. Ge0rG jonasw: no way :P
  333. jonasw Ge0rG, a good example of a working system is the chunked HTTP encoding
  334. daniel has left
  335. daniel has joined
  336. Ge0rG jonasw: how many HTTP entities will accept unix LF instead of CRLF, what do you think?
  337. lskdjf has left
  338. lskdjf has joined
  339. jonasw Ge0rG, right, it’s CRLF
  340. Zash The finer points HTTP header syntax will make you mad
  341. jonasw Zash, I’ve seen a fun talk about that
  342. jonasw forgot how it was called
  343. Ge0rG jonasw: also is there a CRLF at the end? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33878377/why-are-some-servers-not-using-crlf-after-the-last-chunk-length-of-zero ;)
  344. jonasw but they made ascii-art out of well-formed HTTP headers, soo....
  345. jonasw TIL there are trailers
  346. Ge0rG movie trailes? or the ones you live in?
  347. stefandxm has joined
  348. jonasw Ge0rG, the ones behind the last chunk in chunked transfer encoding
  349. jonasw read the answer you linked :)
  350. Ge0rG Oh. My. God.
  351. jere has joined
  352. SouL has left
  353. jcbrand has left
  354. ralphm has left
  355. lovetox has joined
  356. vanitasvitae has left
  357. valo has joined
  358. daniel has left
  359. daniel has joined
  360. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  361. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  362. jcbrand has joined
  363. jere has joined
  364. emxp has left
  365. jere has joined
  366. Ge0rG has left
  367. waqas has joined
  368. ralphm has left
  369. dwd has left
  370. dwd has joined
  371. emxp has joined
  372. valo has joined
  373. SamWhited has joined
  374. vanitasvitae has joined
  375. Martin has left
  376. daniel has left
  377. daniel has joined
  378. stefandxm has left
  379. stefandxm has joined
  380. mimi89999 has joined
  381. Martin has joined
  382. Valerian has joined
  383. daniel has left
  384. Alex has joined
  385. SamWhited has joined
  386. edhelas has left
  387. edhelas has joined
  388. xnyhps has left
  389. Tobias has left
  390. SamWhited > tcp over http I start twitching every time I hear that because it makes me think of BOSH…
  391. Holger has left
  392. daniel has left
  393. Holger has joined
  394. stefandxm has left
  395. stefandxm has joined
  396. Martin has left
  397. Martin has joined
  398. daniel has left
  399. zinid bosh... plz god no
  400. Holger has left
  401. Zash speaking of which, anyone feel like going around the interwebz and purging old pre-standard xmpp-over-websockets implementations?
  402. MattJ Sorry, I have a soft spot for BOSH
  403. zinid I have a bunch of issues related to mod_bosh, it's brutally hard to debug with all that overcomplicated sid/rid/cid crap
  404. zinid just terrible protocol
  405. Holger has joined
  406. SamWhited Indeed… impossible to debug, hard to implement in any reasonable way, can't really be decoupled from the underlying thing it's transporting (although the XMPP over websocket protocol is that way too)
  407. Zash Thanks Web & JavaScript!
  408. SamWhited it's a right pain.
  409. Ge0rG There is a followup to kill-the-web: https://blog.plan99.net/what-should-follow-the-web-8dcbbeaccd93
  410. Martin has left
  411. Zash CORBA YEAAAAAh
  412. fippo have you heard of dns over http aka DOH?
  413. Zash fippo: It needs moar JSON
  414. Martin has joined
  415. zinid Can't we deprecate bosh btw? Do we still need it when we have websockets?
  416. pep. https://caniuse.com/websockets I suppose we could
  417. Ge0rG zinid: are you going to pay the developers of all BOSH clients to migrate?
  418. Ge0rG Also I wonder how that will work with TCP interruptions, bad firewalls / web firewalls, etc.
  419. Ge0rG Also how good is WebSocket library support for non-webbrowser applications?
  420. Zash Maybe we should have standardized two xmpp-over-websocket versions. One with WebJS fiddlery and one that's just the same as TCP but over WS
  421. Zash Does Websockets work with all those restrictive corporate firewalls that are forcing everything into becoming https on 443?
  422. Ge0rG Zash: I think WS is masquerading as HTTPS, but of course with irregular traffic patterns.
  423. Ge0rG Zash: so it will work with the subset of firewalls that don't look too deeply into the traffic and don't have low timeouts
  424. daniel has left
  425. daniel has left
  426. la|r|ma has joined
  427. la|r|ma has joined
  428. daniel has left
  429. lumi has joined
  430. ralphm has joined
  431. Yagiza has joined
  432. Holger has left
  433. Holger has joined
  434. efrit has joined
  435. moparisthebest zinid, excellent work on TLS SRV patch :)
  436. zinid > are you going to pay the developers of all BOSH clients to migrate? Wow, we now care about backward compatibility? What about private storage, vcard avatars, privacy lists? Who payed the developers?
  437. zinid moparisthebest: thanks
  438. mathieui zinid, nobody, and most clients are still using private storage
  439. zinid regarding firewalls: it's just https traffice, timeouts will be handled by stream management
  440. zinid mathieui: I know ;)
  441. dwd zinid, I think we still need BOSH. We have to use it on occasion.
  442. moparisthebest I'm biased, but I think web clients use websockets, and non-web clients use direct TLS, both are equivalent when over 443 as far as evil firewalls go
  443. zinid moparisthebest: I think this webby stuff is mostly for browsers now, no?
  444. zinid not sure why would a non-web client use bosh/ws
  445. moparisthebest iirc gajim has a bosh implementation
  446. moparisthebest but I agree it *should* be
  447. zinid dwd: can't we use ws occasionally? :)
  448. dwd We experience browsers with websockets explicitly disabled. This is far from ideal, but still, they exist.
  449. moparisthebest dwd, I didn't know that was a possibility
  450. mathieui zinid, when you have no other choice for direct connection, ws/bosh in desktop clients seem like a nice fit
  451. Kev We experience browsers too old to websocket, too.
  452. Kev (Yes, yes, I know, I know, but they do)
  453. mathieui hopefully they will be 0dayed into history before long
  454. zinid damn, so I need to fix those mod_bosh bugs :(
  455. zinid thank you!
  456. dwd zinid, Also, I don't think your IPv6 is working.
  457. zinid dwd: it doesn't, yeah
  458. zinid something wrong with firewall probably
  459. dwd Kev, No, we're seeing new browsers, but with it disabled. And no, I didn't know either.
  460. moparisthebest mathieui, but for a desktop client direct TLS is also a (far easier) option whenever ws/bosh is
  461. Kev dwd: Yes, you said that, I didn't doubt it.
  462. mathieui moparisthebest, sometimes you cannot
  463. zinid dwd: the problem with ipv6 is I have nowhere to test it from
  464. zinid dwd: I don't have ipv6 at home, so...
  465. moparisthebest mathieui, aren't you connecting to ws/bosh over direct TLS ?
  466. moparisthebest unless you mean, fully in-the-clear-no-tls-xmpp :/
  467. pep. moparisthebest, sometimes non-standards ports are blocked
  468. mathieui no, I mean, you can proxy those from 443 with nginx
  469. moparisthebest and you can alpn (or protocol-inspect, ew) xmpp and http to xmpp server or nginx on 443
  470. moparisthebest it all depends on the server to have it set up properly, but bosh/ws does too
  471. jonasw moparisthebest, alpn will be blocked by firewalls if they really want to
  472. la|r|ma has joined
  473. la|r|ma has joined
  474. la|r|ma has joined
  475. moparisthebest yes it can be, and probably will one day, but not by wifi hotspots in coffee shops most likely
  476. moparisthebest also why it's not required, daniel and I talked about it back in the day, conversations will probably try with alpn and if it fails then without it, or vice versa
  477. Holger has joined
  478. Zash not *yet*
  479. moparisthebest so today, using alpn, you can have client -> sslh (based on alpn) -> (prosody,nginx)
  480. zinid yeah, ALPN is a really bad idea if you want to bypass the DPI: you're literally saying: "hey, I'm jabber"
  481. moparisthebest today you could also, without alpn, have client -> stunnel (or something decrypting TLS) -> sslh (based on xmpp/http) -> (prosody,nginx)
  482. moparisthebest the original spec sent the SRV name in SNI and used that to multi-plex :P
  483. moparisthebest no one liked my wanton abuse of SNI though :'(
  484. dwd moparisthebest, Wouldn't work in Java, I think.
  485. daniel has left
  486. zinid for the record, I heard it TLS v1.3 sni and other extensions will not be that easy to inspect
  487. zinid can somebody confirm?
  488. zinid I tried to read the I-D, but it's brutal
  489. moparisthebest yea TLS lib support for "serve the certificate for xmpp.org when server1.xmpp.org is in SNI" is probably spotty/non-existant
  490. moparisthebest I used sslh to multiplex on SNI and prosody just served the 1 cert regardless meh
  491. moparisthebest zinid, I know people were pushing to encrypt SNI/ALPN but last I heard it was abandoned to the future, they might have done something to obfuscate it or something, not sure
  492. Martin has left
  493. zinid moparisthebest: too bad, because the government firewall is annoying (it detects SNI)
  494. daniel has left
  495. Martin has joined
  496. moparisthebest which government?
  497. zinid russian
  498. moparisthebest ah that sucks
  499. dwd zinid, We could work around that.
  500. dwd zinid, Use starttls to establish the session and then resume it on directtls.
  501. moparisthebest you are just announcing it another way, also they could inspect the certificate coming back couldn't they?
  502. daniel has left
  503. zinid dwd: but starttls can be detected easily
  504. daniel has left
  505. moparisthebest so my work on 443 just holds your connection up temporarily, connects on it's own to see if the TLS handshake succeeds (and only supports TLS 1.0), and only if successful lets your connection through
  506. moparisthebest so if you only support TLS 1.1+ it won't allow that either, without also supporting 1.0...
  507. tux has left
  508. zinid yes, they could inspect the certificate
  509. Valerian has left
  510. zinid so I would prefere all parameters to be encrypted
  511. zinid *prefer
  512. moparisthebest it's a shame to have to consider that at a country level
  513. moparisthebest but nowadays even 'free-er' countries like UK look like they are moving in that direction...
  514. zinid right, you never know who's next
  515. zinid so this should be developed now
  516. zinid thus I'm wondered the TLS folks abandoned the idea
  517. moparisthebest it's been a year or two since I looked, hopefully it was picked back up idk
  518. moparisthebest the reason was because it breaks all the multi-plexing TLS business like I do with sslh
  519. moparisthebest so akamai and such were super against it
  520. moparisthebest https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption/
  521. moparisthebest August 29, 2017
  522. moparisthebest safe to say it's actively being worked on
  523. ralphm has left
  524. zinid but 20 pages...
  525. Arc has joined
  526. Zash Weren't all the CDNs strongly opposed to that?
  527. moparisthebest ha yea it's not short
  528. Zash oh you said that
  529. Zash 20 pages is not what?
  530. moparisthebest but whatever they come up with there in theory should apply equally to ALPN
  531. moparisthebest Zash, he is saying https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption-00 is 20 pages long
  532. zinid moparisthebest: there is a lot non-normative text, it's fine after all
  533. moparisthebest I can't find anything about ALPN encryption
  534. SamWhited I hadn't seen that; might be interesting to try and do an early implementation in our TLS 1.3 stack. I might give that a shot one of these days if I can convince my boss to loan me to the crypto team for a bit.
  535. SamWhited Does it look relatively implementable in its current form?
  536. edhelas https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/
  537. mimi89999 edhelas: We saw it.
  538. zinid mimi89999: in another chatroom ;)
  539. Ge0rG If we all are in all the same rooms, can't we just merge them into one?
  540. Zash Ge0rG: You are the one who started another? :)
  541. jonasw ... after people complained about off-topic discussions here
  542. jjrh has left
  543. Zash The off-topic discussions there are too on-topic!!
  544. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  545. Ge0rG Zash: that's not my fault.
  546. mimi89999 Ge0rG: 😁
  547. zinid last time I checked there was dead silence in this room
  548. zinid now it's active, that's cool
  549. Ge0rG zinid: board meeting approaching
  550. zinid Ge0rG: nah, I mean several years ago
  551. waqas has left
  552. MattJ ding
  553. Arc dong
  554. Martin Ding ding, board o'clock
  555. MattJ Looking promising :)
  556. jjrh has left
  557. nyco hey
  558. Arc 4/5 this looks very promising
  559. MattJ ralphm, ?
  560. nyco I have to leave at :30 max
  561. MattJ Ok
  562. jjrh has left
  563. Arc i cant stay much beyond :30 either
  564. Martin Ok, let's get cracking then
  565. Martin 1. Roll call
  566. MattJ Here
  567. Arc Here
  568. nyco Présent
  569. Martin 2. Minutes, any volunteers? dwd?
  570. jonasw I can do it
  571. Valerian has joined
  572. jonasw but I’ll also have to leave at :30
  573. Martin Thanks jonasw, much appreciated.
  574. Martin 3. Topics for decisions
  575. Martin Drawing from here: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  576. Martin 3.1: Logo amendments. Struggled to get this tied off last week, thoughts?
  577. Arc +1
  578. nyco +1
  579. MattJ I think it was left last week that ralphm wanted other board members to express their opinion as well
  580. nyco voted on the GH issue
  581. nyco done
  582. MattJ I was in favour, but it seems some folks are fairly against the change
  583. MattJ I continue to be +1, for the record
  584. Martin OK, me too
  585. Arc We are the only ones who even notice the glitch. It doesnt substantially alter our logo in any way a non-xsf member would ever notice.
  586. jcbrand has left
  587. Arc we notice it because we end up with it in front of us in inkscape, like guus did
  588. Guus board is now 4 times +1, one time 0.
  589. Arc (and btw, I printed the "fixed" logo on the trifolds for fosdem and nobody even noticed)
  590. Guus Arc: someone did.
  591. Guus *twitch*
  592. SouL Yes, I did :(
  593. SouL That was supposed to be a happy smiley face, issues for using more than one keyboard layout.
  594. Ge0rG That logo has been triggering my OCD for years.
  595. jonasw pokes the participants
  596. Martin OK, so we're decided, it's approved
  597. Arc cheers
  598. Martin Moving on
  599. Martin 4. Commitment list
  600. Martin 4.1 D&0 quote?
  601. jonasw in one sentence for the minutes, what’s that?
  602. nyco no news? let's move on?
  603. Martin jonasw: I don't know. There's nothing more in Trello and this card precedes me being on Board
  604. jonasw I am amused.
  605. nyco stpeter is assignee
  606. jonasw I won’t put that in the minutes ;-).
  607. nyco thx
  608. nyco Council/board bios?
  609. nyco Arc and Martin, type here a short sentence! ;-)
  610. Martin 4.2 Board bios
  611. mimi89999 You chose the version where the 2 parts of the logo don't cross?
  612. Martin Will do my best
  613. ralphm Hi. I'm commuting, but following along
  614. Guus has left
  615. nyco next item?
  616. Martin 5. Items for discussion
  617. Martin 5.1 XSF Editor team. There's a comment from Guus that this might be solved?
  618. ralphm .
  619. Martin …ok… anyone else got anything on this?
  620. jonasw I suspect no.
  621. nyco nope, next? ;-)
  622. Arc I have no basis to say anything on the topic
  623. Martin 5.2 Legal notice on old public domain XEPs
  624. Martin https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/345
  625. Martin Looks like it's been merged, so I think the card's out of date
  626. daniel has left
  627. Martin 5.3 Ongoing marketing activities & budget. It seems I added this card, but back in February, which is definitely too long ago for me to remember what it's about
  628. Arc you know we can, for once, close the meeting early :-)
  629. ralphm So if we don't know what to discuss, can we remove it?
  630. Martin ralphm: That's what I'm doing. If there's nothing, it's gone.
  631. ralphm I have one minute thing: elections
  632. nyco yes please
  633. stefandxm has left
  634. ralphm Shouldn't we have started this year's round?
  635. Martin 5.4 Blog post on hold: nyco?
  636. Guus has left
  637. Guus has joined
  638. jonasw is that anything board needs to discuss?
  639. daniel has left
  640. Martin Nothing. OK. Next. AOBs.
  641. Martin ralphm: Elections?
  642. ralphm Yeah, sorry for jumping the agenda
  643. nyco blog post is published, so unblocked, but needs some fixes, in discussion with Guus, card can be archived
  644. ralphm But we need to have them
  645. jonasw Alex, you around?
  646. MattJ ralphm, Alex said he was working on it
  647. nyco what elections?
  648. ralphm I missed that
  649. jonasw ^
  650. jonasw what elections? board?
  651. MattJ a couple of weeks ago
  652. ralphm Council and board
  653. MattJ jonasw, yes
  654. efrit has left
  655. jonasw yeah, alex mentioned he’d work on it after the Q3 application meeting
  656. Guus Indeed, Alex mentioned he was going to address that soonish.
  657. jonasw "ASAP" were his words back then :)
  658. ralphm Ok. Martin can you put that in our Trello?
  659. Arc our last job as a board
  660. ralphm What, no
  661. ralphm Preparation takes weeks
  662. ralphm Finding candidates, then the online voting, etc
  663. Arc i mean, seeing a new board into their new role
  664. Guus (is board involved in the prep or execution?)
  665. ralphm Well ultimately we are responsible, yes
  666. ralphm Details are in the bylaws
  667. ralphm Also
  668. Arc Guus: tricking, er, fooling, er, convincing 5+ people to take the role is the board's responsibility. we can't leave until its done
  669. jonasw itym "welcoming"
  670. ralphm We should all consider if we would like to run again, as will council, and try and find good candidates for board
  671. Arc jonasw: yes, "welcoming"
  672. SamWhited I always get those confused :)
  673. goffi has joined
  674. nyco I'm gone, sorry, bye all!
  675. MattJ Thanks nyco
  676. Arc yea i need to head out soon. is there AOB?
  677. valo has joined
  678. MattJ I think we're done
  679. Guus The XEP status thing?
  680. Martin Think we're done, if people are going to start breaking off
  681. Guus Didn't Sam add a card?
  682. jonasw meh, someone forgot to put that on the trello I’m afraid, Guus
  683. ralphm Thanks!
  684. jonasw ah, no it was there
  685. ralphm Guess we're done?
  686. Martin Ah, yes, "Rename Draft to Stable"
  687. jonasw but ralphm interrupted the agenda before it could be reached
  688. Alex yes I am here, cacthing up o the messages :-)
  689. Arc is it pressing such that we can't do it next week?
  690. jonasw personally, I don’t think so
  691. Guus Not pressing I think
  692. SamWhited It's not pressing
  693. ralphm Agreed
  694. Martin Right, then we're done.
  695. Martin +1W for next?
  696. Arc +1W
  697. ralphm Yay. Thanks for chairing Martin
  698. ralphm Wfm
  699. Arc yes thanks for chairing
  700. MattJ Thanks
  701. jonasw Alex, can you give me a quick statement for the minutes on the status of the preparation of the elections for board & council?
  702. ralphm takes back hammer and bangs gavel
  703. Arc thanks ralphm :-)
  704. Alex jonasw: I was trying to find out when we had the election last year, need to look this up on teh memberlist, becasue the meeting minutes form last year are not on the new Wiki
  705. jonasw okay
  706. jonasw I’ll note that down as "preparation in progress"
  707. ralphm Last year was too late
  708. jonasw with some "data recovery needed due to data loss"
  709. Alex wanted to do this this week, but had to travel unexpted again then for the whole week to a customer
  710. ralphm We've been slipping over the years. Used to be in August
  711. emxp has joined
  712. Alex hopefully I can get some work done in the hotel in the evenings
  713. ralphm Cheers
  714. ralphm I know how life can conflict with foundation duties
  715. Guus Alex: need a hand?
  716. daniel has left
  717. Alex https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2016-September/008346.html
  718. Alex https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2016-November/008397.html
  719. Alex ralphm: yes, but we also said we should stick the 12 month term
  720. ralphm Yeah, I know
  721. ralphm So this is a good time to start then, right?
  722. Alex we had discussion a while ago to either make a term longer or shorter once, and agree on a fix schedule
  723. Alex I think Peter proposed a calendar year, Jan 1st to Dec 31,
  724. Alex ralphm: yes, this is why I have it on my TODO list for this week
  725. Alex I can setup the Wiki page this evening, and send out an Email
  726. ralphm Yay
  727. Alex is on EST time this week
  728. moparisthebest calendar year makes sense for serving times, you'd still want the vote (much?) earlier though to avoid voting over holidays/new year
  729. SamWhited It seems like if you did calendar year that the first meeting would never happen because people would be on vacation.
  730. jubalh has joined
  731. jere has joined
  732. Alex has left
  733. Alex has joined
  734. jubalh has left
  735. jubalh has joined
  736. jubalh has left
  737. Martin has left
  738. moparisthebest that TLS SNI encryption RFC is making my brain hurt
  739. Zash RFC? Wasn't it an I-D?
  740. stefandxm has joined
  741. zinid moparisthebest: it's http fronting, not sure how it's better than tor for example
  742. zinid I read it too
  743. SamWhited I should figure out how the printer in this building works so that I can read it…
  744. jubalh has joined
  745. zinid easy in fact
  746. zinid The current draft proposes two designs for SNI Encryption in TLS. Both designs hide a "Hidden Service" behind a "Fronting Service". To an external observer, the TLS connections will appear to be directed towards the Fronting Service. The cleartext SNI parameter will document the Fronting Service. A second SNI parameter will be transmitted in an encrypted form to the Fronting Service, and will allow that service to redirect the connection towards the Hidden Service.
  747. zinid that's all
  748. Zash SamWhited: PC LOAD LETTER
  749. Zash I should figure out how to turn arbitrary RFCs and I-Ds into epubs or something I can read on the eink thing
  750. Yagiza has left
  751. Zash It's a pain, but at least I don't have to deal with printers.
  752. zinid what is a problem to ban this "fronting" sni?
  753. zinid I really don't get it
  754. Zash Wait so it's TLS over TLS???
  755. Arc has left
  756. jonasw Zash, https://tools.ietf.org/ebook/
  757. zinid Zash: yes :)
  758. zinid kinda
  759. Tobias has joined
  760. Tobias has joined
  761. daniel has left
  762. jubalh has left
  763. jonasw rfc-std.epub appears to contain all the RFCs. It doesn’t take at all long to load on my machine....
  764. Zash I believe I have one of those already
  765. Zash Not the most optimal to navigate unfortunately
  766. xnyhps has joined
  767. tux has joined
  768. zinid ah, I got it, you can use any junk in the Fronting SNI
  769. zinid probably :)
  770. moparisthebest Zash, it's got txt/xml/pdf/html/bibtex
  771. Alex has left
  772. Zash what?
  773. moparisthebest https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption/
  774. pep. anybody using this https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0146.html
  775. goffi has left
  776. Zash moparisthebest: those are not what I want
  777. moparisthebest pep., I thought council voted to deprecate that?
  778. daniel has left
  779. pep. Doesn't seem deprecated to me, yet. "Last Updated: 2006-03-23"
  780. Zash has left
  781. pep. But I could see why
  782. Zash https://www.zash.se/upload/-kIpyeZzS4C6LOXuehhxhQ.jpg
  783. daniel has left
  784. moparisthebest pep., Council meeting minutes 2017-08-30: Vote on obsoleting XEP-0146 (Remote controlling clients) Period has expired with missing votes from Tobias and Dave. Dave and Tobias say they are happy with their implicit +1s.
  785. moparisthebest so, officially, it's deprecated, I think? editors? :)
  786. pep. k
  787. moparisthebest or obsoleted
  788. daniel has left
  789. dwd has left
  790. Ge0rG has joined
  791. daniel has left
  792. jonasw moparisthebest, oha
  793. jonasw I remotely recalled there was something like that, thanks for pointing this out
  794. jonasw moparisthebest, I can’t find it in the council minutes you mentioned, are you sure it’s the correct date?
  795. jonasw ah, nevermind
  796. jonasw found it
  797. jonasw yeah, that indeed needs Deprecation
  798. moparisthebest jonasw, btw if you want to add alpn support to your client I can give you a test account on my server
  799. Zash jonasw: btw a big reason why I wanted xep->markdown was to produce epubs using pandoc, and it works pretty well for that
  800. ralphm has left
  801. fp-tester has left
  802. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0267.html what about "Server Buddies"? Anybody using it?
  803. jere has left
  804. jere has joined
  805. Zash I wanna use it for all sorts of things, but haven't gotten around to it :(
  806. arc has joined
  807. moparisthebest pep., this references it https://blog.process-one.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Fighting-XMPP-messaging-spam-thanks-to-ejabberd-API.pdf
  808. moparisthebest more in a 'for the future' way
  809. pep. cool, thanks
  810. vanitasvitae has left
  811. Guus has left
  812. Guus has joined
  813. zinid has left
  814. fp-tester has left
  815. daniel has left
  816. Wiktor has joined
  817. Wiktor has joined
  818. waqas has joined
  819. mimi89999 has left
  820. mimi89999 has left
  821. Guus has left
  822. Guus has joined
  823. goffi has left
  824. goffi has joined
  825. Valerian has left
  826. Valerian has joined
  827. daniel has left
  828. dwd has joined
  829. Guus has left
  830. Guus has joined
  831. Valerian has left
  832. goffi has left
  833. ralphm has left
  834. Flow has joined
  835. uc has joined
  836. ralphm has left
  837. Valerian has joined
  838. ralphm has left
  839. jere has left
  840. jere has joined
  841. ralphm has left
  842. lskdjf has left
  843. lskdjf has joined
  844. Guus I've applied the logo change in most of the obvious places
  845. Guus if someone finds an old logo somewhere, please let me know
  846. jubalh has joined
  847. edhelas has left
  848. jubalh has left
  849. jubalh has joined
  850. winfried has left
  851. jubalh has left
  852. lskdjf has left
  853. lskdjf has left
  854. la|r|ma has joined
  855. Guus has left
  856. Guus has left
  857. jubalh has left
  858. daniel has left
  859. lovetox has left
  860. Guus has left
  861. daniel has left
  862. Guus has joined
  863. Guus has left
  864. Guus has joined
  865. lovetox has joined
  866. Guus has left
  867. uc has joined
  868. ralphm has left
  869. Guus has left
  870. daniel has left
  871. lovetox has left
  872. daniel has left
  873. lovetox has joined
  874. jubalh has joined
  875. jubalh has left
  876. lovetox has left
  877. Zash has left
  878. lovetox has joined
  879. Ge0rG Google Image search is full of it...
  880. moparisthebest has joined
  881. MattJ DMCA
  882. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  883. jubalh has joined
  884. tux has left
  885. lovetox has left
  886. lovetox has joined
  887. Valerian has left
  888. SouL has joined
  889. nyco has left
  890. dwd has left
  891. Valerian has joined
  892. lovetox has left
  893. lovetox has joined
  894. moparisthebest has joined
  895. daniel has left
  896. moparisthebest has joined
  897. valo has left
  898. valo has joined
  899. fp-tester has joined
  900. jubalh has left
  901. Valerian has left
  902. fp-tester has left
  903. fp-tester has joined
  904. daniel has left
  905. SamWhited has left
  906. daniel has left
  907. daniel has left
  908. daniel has joined
  909. efrit has joined
  910. waqas has left
  911. SamWhited has joined
  912. Guus has left
  913. sonny has joined
  914. moparisthebest has joined
  915. moparisthebest has joined
  916. zinid has left
  917. SamWhited has joined
  918. lovetox has left
  919. lumi has joined
  920. arc has left
  921. Guus has left
  922. SamWhited has left
  923. SamWhited has joined