emxpGuus, Ge0rG: Coming back to the 'new' Foundations discussion. My intention is a) focus on important issues in the xmpp comunity in general b) maybe put paid devs on these task or specific clients which are likey to improve the UX of xmpp in general (yes, money is an issue i know) c) build a platform/website to show what xmpp can do for standard users who never heard of xmpp before d) may provide general information about the network (number of users, how does xmpp work etc) - you get what my intention is? I dont talk about if that's likely to happen. I ask whether is the right way?
lumihas joined
Guusemxp: I don't know. There likely is not one right way. If you see value in it, by all means.
Ge0rGemxp:
(a) yes, 100%. I'm trying that for a while now.
(b) not only money is an issue, fair distribution of the money is as well.
(c) I'm not sure people are reading such websites, but it might attract some nerds / multipliers, so yeah! I wish we could host it on jabber.org...
(d) that's actually hard. The XSF is trying to, but you can hardly get reliable data from a federated system like XMPP
danielhas left
danielhas left
danielhas left
Tobiashas left
danielhas left
Tobiashas left
danielIf you are good at fund raising by all means go ahead. I don't think developers will say no to money
danielIronically fund raising is a full time job. So as soon as you start you'll have to raise enough money to at least pay your own salary
Tobiashas left
Flowhas joined
lskdjfhas joined
danielhas left
tim@boese-ban.dehas joined
Ge0rGdaniel: actually, to pay for two people.
tim@boese-ban.dehas joined
Ge0rG...so that you have one effective developer
danielMy personal approach is to create a sustainable business model. I know that's quite revolutionary idea in today's world. But you it might be more... sustainable...
zinidsustainable model is to get hired :D
mathieuidaniel, did you think about pitching your idea to a VC to get funding? :p
danielzinid, only if that company itself has a sustainable business model. i'm sure the matrix developer can agree
Martinhas left
Martinhas joined
danielhas left
Ge0rGI've heard that Erlang an C++ developers are in high demand...
emxpdaniel, Ge0rG: For me there is no direct discussion of fairness. the foundation can act transparent, only invest in open source code and only spend money to task/work they all agree to. based on some principles - opensource, leading for xmpp, of intrest for xmpp community etc.. If people dont agree to those projects, they wont spend. so the foundation is forced to define task which are in the interest of most xmpp users somehow... or they can define task, the necessary effort, and let people donate and offer like 10-20% of the necessary amount. It's better to have a central plattform to collect task, than wait for third party aproaches maybe
danielhas left
emxpI think most people, dont like to donate, if they have no idea, about where the money goes
KevPushing only OSS projects sounds like a Really Bad Idea, given where so much of the XSF's expertise and effort has come from over the years.
mathieuiKev, yeah, although I can see the point if people are donating the funding
jubalhhas joined
emxpmathieui: what do you mean exactly
emxpKev: Just an example. What software would you suggest to support?
ZashSome may find it weird to donate to commercial projects.
KevAh, this is a separate 'pay for software' foundation? I thought you meant the XSF.
KevIf it's some 'pay for opensource XMPP foundation', it's fine to focus on open source.
KevZash: Sure, so it has to be both non-commercial and open source? :)
Ge0rGKev: I think that OSS is the only way to ensure that the software won't just fold up and die at any moment in time after or before the funding stops.
KevGe0rG: I don't think OSS ensures that at all. But I understand what you mean.
Ge0rGKev: with closed source, there is no way at all to achieve that.
Ge0rGKev: and there are many viable business models around OSS, so I don't think this is about offending commercial closed-source providers.
KevAlso not true, but it's harder to get anyone to agree to it.
Ge0rGKev: it's always hard to agree on how to spend money. Your first remark is a good example of that.
fp-testerhas left
fp-testerhas joined
KevGe0rG: If the business model is viable, we don't need a new foundation to be fundraising to inject money, I suppose? :)
Ge0rGKev: so we need to focus our money on non-viable business models. Wow, that sounds like a very awful framing of paying for non-commercial OSS development.
KevI don't have any problem with someone running a "raise money and we'll give it to projects" org, BTW. I misunderstood and thought it was suggested to do it through the XSF, which I disagree with.
KevI think the prospect is filled with difficulties, but as long as it's not the XSF that's shouldering them, more people working in XMPP is good :)
Ge0rGThe more I think about it, the more I like the idea of resurrecting the Jabber Software Foundation.
zinidhas left
zinidhas left
mathieuistart writign JEPs
Ge0rGWhich is my second "it used to be more appropriate in the past" epiphany after "message routing was better before Carbons, and we should try to get back to it"
zinidhas joined
mathieuistarts writing JEPs
KevRouting was better before carbons?
ZashGe0rG: I suddenly have this urge to tell you something along the lines of "I told you so"
Ge0rGKev: I've been pondering about how to improve the message routing mess we are currently in, and my proposal for a future XMPP would be this:
- messages to the bare JID are persistent, routed to all online resoures and archived
- messages to a full JID are ephemeral, only routed to the target full JID (or bounced) and not stored.
Ge0rG- resource locking must be burned with fire.
Ge0rGand this is very close to XMPP message routing rules pre-Carbons
KevI'm fine with that in principle, although we're not ready for "resource locking must be burned with fire." because of not having a sensible caps story yet, but we could get there. We need to anyway, because of carbons.
Ge0rGExcept there is no sane way to get from here to there.
Ge0rGKev: because of carbons and archives.
MattJThere are ways though
Ge0rGand race conditions.
KevThe idea of not doing full-JID fallback is sensible enough, in a MAM world.
KevBut only if you archive. Hmm.
Ge0rGKev: if we make full-JID synonymous with ephemeral, there is no need for fallback.
fp-testerhas left
Ge0rGBut reassigning the semantics of full-JID is a tough call.
KevExcept for requiring a forklift upgrade.
fp-testerhas joined
Ge0rGKev: I'm open to less radical suggestions.
KevI was trying to think through whether it was possible for a 'modern' client on a 'modern' server to accept messages in 'old' style, but still do sensible things.
Ge0rGKev: but I think it's important that we analyze the situation we are in, determine that it's a huge mess, and have a vision of where we want to be in X years.
KevI guess there is.
KevIf we in some way mark sessions as being xmpp 1 or xmpp 2.
ZashDesign from the top instead of the bottom?
Ge0rGKev: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0 ;)
KevGe0rG: I don't disagree with that. I've been trying to do this for some time.
Kev(that being working a way out of the mess)
Ge0rGand I'd love that vision to be "XMPP(-IM) is a transport protocol to synchronize a message history between a user's devices on login and live.
Ge0rGplus what we have with presence, that's working well more or less.
KevI think a long session at the next summit would be justified.
Ge0rGZash: yeah.
Ge0rGKev: +1 to that, though I don't know yet if I can attend.
KevOr a fully-virtual summit.
ZashGe0rG: Yeah, I too have this feeling that we've built a bunch of things that we don't know how they are supposed to fit togeather.
KevOr just a video chat between interested parties. Whatever.
KevI don't think IM/mail is the most productive way to work through such a core issue.
Kev(But I could be wrong)
Ge0rGKev: I think that whoever is going to attend a live meeting needs to understand the problem first.
ZashFOSDEM isn't too far away?
Ge0rGZash: it's not just a feeling, it's our current situation. Have a look at the interop between MAM and MUC, MUC and Carbons, etc.
Ge0rGEven presence in MUC is a challenge.
Ge0rGAnd the current situation is sufficiently f***ed up that we can't fix it by piling more protocols on top.
KevI think needing to understand the problem is why high-bandwidth is useful.
KevI'm not at all convinced that it can't be fixed by building on top, though.
Ge0rGI'm pondering about writing something long-ish to explain the problem as I see it and possible solution directions
ZashGe0rG: MAM, MUC, Carbons, SM, Push, CSI etc
danielhas left
Ge0rGZash: yeah.
tim@boese-ban.dehas joined
KevAll your examples there included MUC.
ZashAnd the number of things involved has grown to be more numerous than what fits in my head
KevBinning MUC and replacing it might be an idea...
Ge0rGKev: what Zash said.
Ge0rGKev: how should Carbons and MAM interact with 0184 ACKs for example?
KevI think they're all necessary. Whether they're called individual things, or xmpp2core just gets really long.
KevYou need archiving, you need groupchat, you need routing rules, you need app-level acks, you need push, you need bandwidth management...
Ge0rGKev: all those things are needed, yes.
Ge0rGKev: that's not the question. The question is how to make them work together.
Ge0rGThey are all individual patches for individual problems, and they interop badly.
stefandxmhas left
KevI'm far from saying everything's perfect. I challenge the notion that things can't be fixed without binning the core, though.
KevAnd we certainly need The Big Picture sorted.
Ge0rGKev: this is not about binning the core.
Ge0rGKev: but about some of the assumptions it made that are not appropriate any more.
KevYou'll remember (you won't, actually, because it was before your time :)) that I started a protoXEP for this many many years ago, but we didn't have the building blocks to solve it. It was in the days before MAM et al.
Ge0rGKev: I'm not intending to replace XMPP with JSON-REST. But I want to start from The Big Picture and see what needs to be changed to make XMPP2 work well.
Martinhas left
Martinhas joined
KevI'm very much in favour of big-picture here.
emxphas joined
la|r|mahas left
emxpKev: Yes, i was talking about a different organsisation and if my thoughts are senseful
ZashAnd big-picture needs a big whiteboard! :)
KevMaybe Ge0rG should publish a Thought-A-Day on each of the problems he sees with the current state, so it's not TL;DR, and at the end of the series we've got the full picture :D
jonaswKev, I thnik he started a blog series :)
KevOdd, I thought I had planet jabber in my feed.
jonaswdoes the xmpp.org blog federate to that?
zinidI'm lost, xmpp2.0 is coming?
zinidjust don't use XML anymore :)
Zashfunny
valohas left
valohas joined
emxphas joined
zinidor JSON if that matters
zinidJSON is XML of nowadays
zinidkids from 2030s will laught at us again
Kevhas left
ZashWake me up when ASN.1 is cool again
zinidnever?
zinidit's not modern, ya know
zinidprotocol buffers is THE THING
Yagizahas left
Ge0rGactually, protocol buffers is one of the saner protocol designs.
jonaswZash, ASN.1 over XML over JSON over HTTP over XMPP over VTEP
jonaswGe0rG, I’m not convinced by their implicit defaults.
Ge0rGKev: I've started a blog post series on "Easy XMPP", which is different. I think for this one, I'd rather go with my personal blog and the "xmpp" tag there.
Ge0rGjonasw: admittedly, I haven't had a deep dive into it. But any protocol that doesn't implicitly encode data lengths and uses escapable special markers is sane for me.
Zashjonasw: Considering ASN.1 being something of a schema thing, and the existence of an XML encoding of it ... I wonder if there's a JSON one yet.
Ge0rGhttps://blog.plan99.net/its-time-to-kill-the-web-974a9fe80c89 was an awesome post showing that all the modern web protocols actually fail the same way the US telephone network did in the 70ies. Mixing of meta-data and data.
ZashMake Gohper Great Again
Ge0rGThe author is calling it "buffer overflows" and meaning "lack of explicit buffer lengths", but it's all the same story.
ZashDon't LangSec people say that that's a giant security hole too?
Ge0rGZash: that what?
Ge0rGKev: I'm just not sure if I can start with individual problems and somehow arrive at the big picture.
ZashWhop's, bit got flipped in the length field and everything turned into a giant buffer overflow!
ZashSomething something length fields don't fit into some simpler language category?
zinidGe0rG: why not prefix length? you can parse it in parallel, unlike scanning
ZashBecause Heartbleed?
ZashLength prefixed fields helped so much there
Ge0rGZash: the issue with heartbleed was conflicting length fields.
zinidZash: using same logic I would say don't use C then
jonaswzinid, that’s a reasonable statement :-)
Guushas left
zinidwell, yes :)
Ge0rGZash: besides, my point wasn't that old protocols are sane, just that the current ones are mad.
stefandxmhas joined
Martinhas left
Martinhas joined
zinidyeah, like http2
zinidtcp over http, wtf...
ZashGotta let Google have their optimizations
zinidright, today everyone is accepting what Google suggests, to be exact, what's good for their bussiness
zinidIETF is degrading
SouLhas left
Ge0rGW3C has fallen.
Ge0rGzinid: https://jacquesmattheij.com/the-web-in-2050 is for you :P
danielhas left
zinidGe0rG: wait, I didn't finish reading your first article (about kill web)
nycohas left
nycohas joined
stefandxmhas left
tim@boese-ban.dehas joined
zinidGe0rG: for the record, from your article:
> The fix: All buffers should be length prefixed from database, to frontend server, to user interface. There should never be a need to scan something for magic characters to determine where it ends. Note that this requires binary protocols, formats and UI logic throughout the entire stack.
tim@boese-ban.dehas joined
ZashI forget where I read it, but you shouldn't underestimate human-readable protocols and formats. At least not for early versions. Later versions being binary might be sensible.
ZashIt was kinda cool way back in the day to open the XML console and see something that made sense.
ZashOr View Source and reading the HTML and stuff.
Zashcan't do that anymore tho, not with all the minifications and whatnot.
zinidZash: yes, it was cool because there were no encryption, I used tcpflow for this ;)
HolgerNot sure why $length:$readable_data would be impossible though.
zinidactually, there can be well-defined mechanism to dump structures in human-readable form
zinidlike they do for WebAssembly
danielhas joined
Guushas left
ZashDo binary protocols usually have that tho?
ZashLike, included by default and accessible?
jonaswZash, protobuf does
zinidZash: I don't think so, but it's not that hard to write rules how to dump protobuffs structures for example
jonaswZash, $homebrewbinary probably doesn’t
zinidand dumping structures is trivial and not error prone (almost)
zinidunlike parsing them
ZashSure sure, but text formats make it really easy to get into fiddling with things, which helps with early adoption.
ZashOf course it comes back to bite you later, but still.
jonasw*shrug*
jonaswXML worksforme
Guushas left
zinidthis is the same argument as Python vs Haskell
zinidPython will bite you later for sure
zinidduck typing accepts no excuses
ZashDuckt tapeing ftw
jonaswduct taping?
jonaswkinky
ZashDuckDuckTape?
Ge0rGHolger: it's not impossible with human-readable formats, but then you end up with whitespace or newline in the wrong place and the parser freaks out :(
jonaswGe0rG, #poezio? ;-)
zinidanyway, I'm relaxed, because I implemented XML codec for ejabberd, it does the same as asn.1/protobufs/etc and it works (despite everyone cries you should not validate)
Ge0rGjonasw: no way :P
jonaswGe0rG, a good example of a working system is the chunked HTTP encoding
danielhas left
danielhas joined
Ge0rGjonasw: how many HTTP entities will accept unix LF instead of CRLF, what do you think?
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
jonaswGe0rG, right, it’s CRLF
ZashThe finer points HTTP header syntax will make you mad
jonaswZash, I’ve seen a fun talk about that
jonaswforgot how it was called
Ge0rGjonasw: also is there a CRLF at the end? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33878377/why-are-some-servers-not-using-crlf-after-the-last-chunk-length-of-zero ;)
jonaswbut they made ascii-art out of well-formed HTTP headers, soo....
jonaswTIL there are trailers
Ge0rGmovie trailes? or the ones you live in?
stefandxmhas joined
jonaswGe0rG, the ones behind the last chunk in chunked transfer encoding
jonaswread the answer you linked :)
Ge0rGOh. My. God.
jerehas joined
SouLhas left
jcbrandhas left
ralphmhas left
lovetoxhas joined
vanitasvitaehas left
valohas joined
danielhas left
danielhas joined
tim@boese-ban.dehas joined
tim@boese-ban.dehas joined
jcbrandhas joined
jerehas joined
emxphas left
jerehas joined
Ge0rGhas left
waqashas joined
ralphmhas left
dwdhas left
dwdhas joined
emxphas joined
valohas joined
SamWhitedhas joined
vanitasvitaehas joined
Martinhas left
danielhas left
danielhas joined
stefandxmhas left
stefandxmhas joined
mimi89999has joined
Martinhas joined
Valerianhas joined
danielhas left
Alexhas joined
SamWhitedhas joined
edhelashas left
edhelashas joined
xnyhpshas left
Tobiashas left
SamWhited> tcp over http
I start twitching every time I hear that because it makes me think of BOSH…
Holgerhas left
danielhas left
Holgerhas joined
stefandxmhas left
stefandxmhas joined
Martinhas left
Martinhas joined
danielhas left
zinidbosh... plz god no
Holgerhas left
Zashspeaking of which, anyone feel like going around the interwebz and purging old pre-standard xmpp-over-websockets implementations?
MattJSorry, I have a soft spot for BOSH
zinidI have a bunch of issues related to mod_bosh, it's brutally hard to debug with all that overcomplicated sid/rid/cid crap
zinidjust terrible protocol
Holgerhas joined
SamWhitedIndeed… impossible to debug, hard to implement in any reasonable way, can't really be decoupled from the underlying thing it's transporting (although the XMPP over websocket protocol is that way too)
ZashThanks Web & JavaScript!
SamWhitedit's a right pain.
Ge0rGThere is a followup to kill-the-web: https://blog.plan99.net/what-should-follow-the-web-8dcbbeaccd93
Martinhas left
ZashCORBA YEAAAAAh
fippohave you heard of dns over http aka DOH?
Zashfippo: It needs moar JSON
Martinhas joined
zinidCan't we deprecate bosh btw? Do we still need it when we have websockets?
pep.https://caniuse.com/websockets I suppose we could
Ge0rGzinid: are you going to pay the developers of all BOSH clients to migrate?
Ge0rGAlso I wonder how that will work with TCP interruptions, bad firewalls / web firewalls, etc.
Ge0rGAlso how good is WebSocket library support for non-webbrowser applications?
ZashMaybe we should have standardized two xmpp-over-websocket versions. One with WebJS fiddlery and one that's just the same as TCP but over WS
ZashDoes Websockets work with all those restrictive corporate firewalls that are forcing everything into becoming https on 443?
Ge0rGZash: I think WS is masquerading as HTTPS, but of course with irregular traffic patterns.
Ge0rGZash: so it will work with the subset of firewalls that don't look too deeply into the traffic and don't have low timeouts
danielhas left
danielhas left
la|r|mahas joined
la|r|mahas joined
danielhas left
lumihas joined
ralphmhas joined
Yagizahas joined
Holgerhas left
Holgerhas joined
efrithas joined
moparisthebestzinid, excellent work on TLS SRV patch :)
zinid> are you going to pay the developers of all BOSH clients to migrate?
Wow, we now care about backward compatibility? What about private storage, vcard avatars, privacy lists? Who payed the developers?
zinidmoparisthebest: thanks
mathieuizinid, nobody, and most clients are still using private storage
zinidregarding firewalls: it's just https traffice, timeouts will be handled by stream management
zinidmathieui: I know ;)
dwdzinid, I think we still need BOSH. We have to use it on occasion.
moparisthebestI'm biased, but I think web clients use websockets, and non-web clients use direct TLS, both are equivalent when over 443 as far as evil firewalls go
zinidmoparisthebest: I think this webby stuff is mostly for browsers now, no?
zinidnot sure why would a non-web client use bosh/ws
moparisthebestiirc gajim has a bosh implementation
moparisthebestbut I agree it *should* be
ziniddwd: can't we use ws occasionally? :)
dwdWe experience browsers with websockets explicitly disabled. This is far from ideal, but still, they exist.
moparisthebestdwd, I didn't know that was a possibility
mathieuizinid, when you have no other choice for direct connection, ws/bosh in desktop clients seem like a nice fit
KevWe experience browsers too old to websocket, too.
Kev(Yes, yes, I know, I know, but they do)
mathieuihopefully they will be 0dayed into history before long
ziniddamn, so I need to fix those mod_bosh bugs :(
zinidthank you!
dwdzinid, Also, I don't think your IPv6 is working.
ziniddwd: it doesn't, yeah
zinidsomething wrong with firewall probably
dwdKev, No, we're seeing new browsers, but with it disabled. And no, I didn't know either.
moparisthebestmathieui, but for a desktop client direct TLS is also a (far easier) option whenever ws/bosh is
Kevdwd: Yes, you said that, I didn't doubt it.
mathieuimoparisthebest, sometimes you cannot
ziniddwd: the problem with ipv6 is I have nowhere to test it from
ziniddwd: I don't have ipv6 at home, so...
moparisthebestmathieui, aren't you connecting to ws/bosh over direct TLS ?
moparisthebestunless you mean, fully in-the-clear-no-tls-xmpp :/
pep.moparisthebest, sometimes non-standards ports are blocked
mathieuino, I mean, you can proxy those from 443 with nginx
moparisthebestand you can alpn (or protocol-inspect, ew) xmpp and http to xmpp server or nginx on 443
moparisthebestit all depends on the server to have it set up properly, but bosh/ws does too
jonaswmoparisthebest, alpn will be blocked by firewalls if they really want to
la|r|mahas joined
la|r|mahas joined
la|r|mahas joined
moparisthebestyes it can be, and probably will one day, but not by wifi hotspots in coffee shops most likely
moparisthebestalso why it's not required, daniel and I talked about it back in the day, conversations will probably try with alpn and if it fails then without it, or vice versa
Holgerhas joined
Zashnot *yet*
moparisthebestso today, using alpn, you can have client -> sslh (based on alpn) -> (prosody,nginx)
zinidyeah, ALPN is a really bad idea if you want to bypass the DPI: you're literally saying: "hey, I'm jabber"
moparisthebesttoday you could also, without alpn, have client -> stunnel (or something decrypting TLS) -> sslh (based on xmpp/http) -> (prosody,nginx)
moparisthebestthe original spec sent the SRV name in SNI and used that to multi-plex :P
moparisthebestno one liked my wanton abuse of SNI though :'(
dwdmoparisthebest, Wouldn't work in Java, I think.
danielhas left
zinidfor the record, I heard it TLS v1.3 sni and other extensions will not be that easy to inspect
zinidcan somebody confirm?
zinidI tried to read the I-D, but it's brutal
moparisthebestyea TLS lib support for "serve the certificate for xmpp.org when server1.xmpp.org is in SNI" is probably spotty/non-existant
moparisthebestI used sslh to multiplex on SNI and prosody just served the 1 cert regardless meh
moparisthebestzinid, I know people were pushing to encrypt SNI/ALPN but last I heard it was abandoned to the future, they might have done something to obfuscate it or something, not sure
Martinhas left
zinidmoparisthebest: too bad, because the government firewall is annoying (it detects SNI)
danielhas left
Martinhas joined
moparisthebestwhich government?
zinidrussian
moparisthebestah that sucks
dwdzinid, We could work around that.
dwdzinid, Use starttls to establish the session and then resume it on directtls.
moparisthebestyou are just announcing it another way, also they could inspect the certificate coming back couldn't they?
danielhas left
ziniddwd: but starttls can be detected easily
danielhas left
moparisthebestso my work on 443 just holds your connection up temporarily, connects on it's own to see if the TLS handshake succeeds (and only supports TLS 1.0), and only if successful lets your connection through
moparisthebestso if you only support TLS 1.1+ it won't allow that either, without also supporting 1.0...
tuxhas left
zinidyes, they could inspect the certificate
Valerianhas left
zinidso I would prefere all parameters to be encrypted
zinid*prefer
moparisthebestit's a shame to have to consider that at a country level
moparisthebestbut nowadays even 'free-er' countries like UK look like they are moving in that direction...
zinidright, you never know who's next
zinidso this should be developed now
zinidthus I'm wondered the TLS folks abandoned the idea
moparisthebestit's been a year or two since I looked, hopefully it was picked back up idk
moparisthebestthe reason was because it breaks all the multi-plexing TLS business like I do with sslh
moparisthebestso akamai and such were super against it
moparisthebestsafe to say it's actively being worked on
ralphmhas left
zinidbut 20 pages...
Archas joined
ZashWeren't all the CDNs strongly opposed to that?
moparisthebestha yea it's not short
Zashoh you said that
Zash20 pages is not what?
moparisthebestbut whatever they come up with there in theory should apply equally to ALPN
moparisthebestZash, he is saying https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption-00 is 20 pages long
zinidmoparisthebest: there is a lot non-normative text, it's fine after all
moparisthebestI can't find anything about ALPN encryption
SamWhitedI hadn't seen that; might be interesting to try and do an early implementation in our TLS 1.3 stack. I might give that a shot one of these days if I can convince my boss to loan me to the crypto team for a bit.
SamWhitedDoes it look relatively implementable in its current form?
Ge0rGIf we all are in all the same rooms, can't we just merge them into one?
ZashGe0rG: You are the one who started another? :)
jonasw... after people complained about off-topic discussions here
jjrhhas left
ZashThe off-topic discussions there are too on-topic!!
tim@boese-ban.dehas joined
Ge0rGZash: that's not my fault.
mimi89999Ge0rG: 😁
zinidlast time I checked there was dead silence in this room
zinidnow it's active, that's cool
Ge0rGzinid: board meeting approaching
zinidGe0rG: nah, I mean several years ago
waqashas left
MattJding
Arcdong
MartinDing ding, board o'clock
MattJLooking promising :)
jjrhhas left
nycohey
Arc4/5 this looks very promising
MattJralphm, ?
nycoI have to leave at :30 max
MattJOk
jjrhhas left
Arci cant stay much beyond :30 either
MartinOk, let's get cracking then
Martin1. Roll call
MattJHere
ArcHere
nycoPrésent
Martin2. Minutes, any volunteers? dwd?
jonaswI can do it
Valerianhas joined
jonaswbut I’ll also have to leave at :30
MartinThanks jonasw, much appreciated.
Martin3. Topics for decisions
MartinDrawing from here: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
Martin3.1: Logo amendments. Struggled to get this tied off last week, thoughts?
Arc+1
nyco+1
MattJI think it was left last week that ralphm wanted other board members to express their opinion as well
nycovoted on the GH issue
nycodone
MattJI was in favour, but it seems some folks are fairly against the change
MattJI continue to be +1, for the record
MartinOK, me too
ArcWe are the only ones who even notice the glitch. It doesnt substantially alter our logo in any way a non-xsf member would ever notice.
jcbrandhas left
Arcwe notice it because we end up with it in front of us in inkscape, like guus did
Guusboard is now 4 times +1, one time 0.
Arc(and btw, I printed the "fixed" logo on the trifolds for fosdem and nobody even noticed)
GuusArc: someone did.
Guus*twitch*
SouLYes, I did :(
SouLThat was supposed to be a happy smiley face, issues for using more than one keyboard layout.
Ge0rGThat logo has been triggering my OCD for years.
jonaswpokes the participants
MartinOK, so we're decided, it's approved
Arccheers
MartinMoving on
Martin4. Commitment list
Martin4.1 D&0 quote?
jonaswin one sentence for the minutes, what’s that?
nycono news? let's move on?
Martinjonasw: I don't know. There's nothing more in Trello and this card precedes me being on Board
jonaswI am amused.
nycostpeter is assignee
jonaswI won’t put that in the minutes ;-).
nycothx
nycoCouncil/board bios?
nycoArc and Martin, type here a short sentence! ;-)
Martin4.2 Board bios
mimi89999You chose the version where the 2 parts of the logo don't cross?
MartinWill do my best
ralphmHi. I'm commuting, but following along
Guushas left
nyconext item?
Martin5. Items for discussion
Martin5.1 XSF Editor team. There's a comment from Guus that this might be solved?
ralphm.
Martin…ok… anyone else got anything on this?
jonaswI suspect no.
nyconope, next? ;-)
ArcI have no basis to say anything on the topic
Martin5.2 Legal notice on old public domain XEPs
Martinhttps://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/345
MartinLooks like it's been merged, so I think the card's out of date
danielhas left
Martin5.3 Ongoing marketing activities & budget. It seems I added this card, but back in February, which is definitely too long ago for me to remember what it's about
Arcyou know we can, for once, close the meeting early :-)
ralphmSo if we don't know what to discuss, can we remove it?
Martinralphm: That's what I'm doing. If there's nothing, it's gone.
ralphmI have one minute thing: elections
nycoyes please
stefandxmhas left
ralphmShouldn't we have started this year's round?
Martin5.4 Blog post on hold: nyco?
Guushas left
Guushas joined
jonaswis that anything board needs to discuss?
danielhas left
MartinNothing. OK. Next. AOBs.
Martinralphm: Elections?
ralphmYeah, sorry for jumping the agenda
nycoblog post is published, so unblocked, but needs some fixes, in discussion with Guus, card can be archived
ralphmBut we need to have them
jonaswAlex, you around?
MattJralphm, Alex said he was working on it
nycowhat elections?
ralphmI missed that
jonasw^
jonaswwhat elections? board?
MattJa couple of weeks ago
ralphmCouncil and board
MattJjonasw, yes
efrithas left
jonaswyeah, alex mentioned he’d work on it after the Q3 application meeting
GuusIndeed, Alex mentioned he was going to address that soonish.
jonasw"ASAP" were his words back then :)
ralphmOk. Martin can you put that in our Trello?
Arcour last job as a board
ralphmWhat, no
ralphmPreparation takes weeks
ralphmFinding candidates, then the online voting, etc
Arci mean, seeing a new board into their new role
Guus(is board involved in the prep or execution?)
ralphmWell ultimately we are responsible, yes
ralphmDetails are in the bylaws
ralphmAlso
ArcGuus: tricking, er, fooling, er, convincing 5+ people to take the role is the board's responsibility. we can't leave until its done
jonaswitym "welcoming"
ralphmWe should all consider if we would like to run again, as will council, and try and find good candidates for board
Arcjonasw: yes, "welcoming"
SamWhitedI always get those confused :)
goffihas joined
nycoI'm gone, sorry, bye all!
MattJThanks nyco
Arcyea i need to head out soon. is there AOB?
valohas joined
MattJI think we're done
GuusThe XEP status thing?
MartinThink we're done, if people are going to start breaking off
GuusDidn't Sam add a card?
jonaswmeh, someone forgot to put that on the trello I’m afraid, Guus
ralphmThanks!
jonaswah, no it was there
ralphmGuess we're done?
MartinAh, yes, "Rename Draft to Stable"
jonaswbut ralphm interrupted the agenda before it could be reached
Alexyes I am here, cacthing up o the messages :-)
Arcis it pressing such that we can't do it next week?
jonaswpersonally, I don’t think so
GuusNot pressing I think
SamWhitedIt's not pressing
ralphmAgreed
MartinRight, then we're done.
Martin+1W for next?
Arc+1W
ralphmYay. Thanks for chairing Martin
ralphmWfm
Arcyes thanks for chairing
MattJThanks
jonaswAlex, can you give me a quick statement for the minutes on the status of the preparation of the elections for board & council?
ralphmtakes back hammer and bangs gavel
Arcthanks ralphm :-)
Alexjonasw: I was trying to find out when we had the election last year, need to look this up on teh memberlist, becasue the meeting minutes form last year are not on the new Wiki
jonaswokay
jonaswI’ll note that down as "preparation in progress"
ralphmLast year was too late
jonaswwith some "data recovery needed due to data loss"
Alexwanted to do this this week, but had to travel unexpted again then for the whole week to a customer
ralphmWe've been slipping over the years. Used to be in August
emxphas joined
Alexhopefully I can get some work done in the hotel in the evenings
ralphmCheers
ralphmI know how life can conflict with foundation duties
Alexralphm: yes, but we also said we should stick the 12 month term
ralphmYeah, I know
ralphmSo this is a good time to start then, right?
Alexwe had discussion a while ago to either make a term longer or shorter once, and agree on a fix schedule
AlexI think Peter proposed a calendar year, Jan 1st to Dec 31,
Alexralphm: yes, this is why I have it on my TODO list for this week
AlexI can setup the Wiki page this evening, and send out an Email
ralphmYay
Alexis on EST time this week
moparisthebestcalendar year makes sense for serving times, you'd still want the vote (much?) earlier though to avoid voting over holidays/new year
SamWhitedIt seems like if you did calendar year that the first meeting would never happen because people would be on vacation.
jubalhhas joined
jerehas joined
Alexhas left
Alexhas joined
jubalhhas left
jubalhhas joined
jubalhhas left
Martinhas left
moparisthebestthat TLS SNI encryption RFC is making my brain hurt
ZashRFC? Wasn't it an I-D?
stefandxmhas joined
zinidmoparisthebest: it's http fronting, not sure how it's better than tor for example
zinidI read it too
SamWhitedI should figure out how the printer in this building works so that I can read it…
jubalhhas joined
zinideasy in fact
zinidThe current draft proposes two designs for SNI Encryption in TLS.
Both designs hide a "Hidden Service" behind a "Fronting Service". To
an external observer, the TLS connections will appear to be directed
towards the Fronting Service. The cleartext SNI parameter will
document the Fronting Service. A second SNI parameter will be
transmitted in an encrypted form to the Fronting Service, and will
allow that service to redirect the connection towards the Hidden
Service.
zinidthat's all
ZashSamWhited: PC LOAD LETTER
ZashI should figure out how to turn arbitrary RFCs and I-Ds into epubs or something I can read on the eink thing
Yagizahas left
ZashIt's a pain, but at least I don't have to deal with printers.
zinidwhat is a problem to ban this "fronting" sni?
zinidI really don't get it
ZashWait so it's TLS over TLS???
Archas left
jonaswZash, https://tools.ietf.org/ebook/
zinidZash: yes :)
zinidkinda
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas joined
danielhas left
jubalhhas left
jonaswrfc-std.epub appears to contain all the RFCs. It doesn’t take at all long to load on my machine....
ZashI believe I have one of those already
ZashNot the most optimal to navigate unfortunately
xnyhpshas joined
tuxhas joined
zinidah, I got it, you can use any junk in the Fronting SNI
moparisthebestpep., Council meeting minutes 2017-08-30:
Vote on obsoleting XEP-0146 (Remote controlling clients)
Period has expired with missing votes from Tobias and Dave.
Dave and Tobias say they are happy with their implicit +1s.
moparisthebestso, officially, it's deprecated, I think? editors? :)
pep.k
moparisthebestor obsoleted
danielhas left
dwdhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
danielhas left
jonaswmoparisthebest, oha
jonaswI remotely recalled there was something like that, thanks for pointing this out
jonaswmoparisthebest, I can’t find it in the council minutes you mentioned, are you sure it’s the correct date?
jonaswah, nevermind
jonaswfound it
jonaswyeah, that indeed needs Deprecation
moparisthebestjonasw, btw if you want to add alpn support to your client I can give you a test account on my server
Zashjonasw: btw a big reason why I wanted xep->markdown was to produce epubs using pandoc, and it works pretty well for that
ralphmhas left
fp-testerhas left
pep.https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0267.html what about "Server Buddies"? Anybody using it?
jerehas left
jerehas joined
ZashI wanna use it for all sorts of things, but haven't gotten around to it :(
archas joined
moparisthebestpep., this references it https://blog.process-one.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Fighting-XMPP-messaging-spam-thanks-to-ejabberd-API.pdf
moparisthebestmore in a 'for the future' way
pep.cool, thanks
vanitasvitaehas left
Guushas left
Guushas joined
zinidhas left
fp-testerhas left
danielhas left
Wiktorhas joined
Wiktorhas joined
waqashas joined
mimi89999has left
mimi89999has left
Guushas left
Guushas joined
goffihas left
goffihas joined
Valerianhas left
Valerianhas joined
danielhas left
dwdhas joined
Guushas left
Guushas joined
Valerianhas left
goffihas left
ralphmhas left
Flowhas joined
uchas joined
ralphmhas left
Valerianhas joined
ralphmhas left
jerehas left
jerehas joined
ralphmhas left
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
GuusI've applied the logo change in most of the obvious places
Guusif someone finds an old logo somewhere, please let me know
XSF Discussion - 2017-09-27