XSF Discussion - 2017-09-28

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  73. uc Right to be Forgotten!
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  93. mimi89999 😂
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  123. mathieui just asking, but there’s no way for a client to delete a message from a mam archive?
  124. Zash No
  125. Zash Not in MAM
  126. Zash Separate specification may define that
  127. mathieui That’s what I was thinking as well
  128. Zash That Prosody fork, I forget the name, had something like that IIRC
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  130. mathieui I was checking if there was something like that in urn:mam:tmp which was removed later, but it doesn’t appear to be so
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  132. mathieui a coworker came to me because a client asked him to remove a message from the archive on an ejabberd server with mam:tmp
  133. mathieui so I had to check
  134. zinid the database schema in ejabberd doesn't depend on mam version, iirc
  135. Kev Yeah, we have to support that in M-Link, so things in the archive can be removed afterwards.
  136. Kev I imagine it'd be a fairly common enterprise etc. requirement.
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  138. Zash I'd imagine the opposite
  139. Ge0rG Maybe there is a separate archive that the data gets moved into?
  140. Zash Altho archiving and eg compliance logging doesn't have to be the same thing
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  142. Kev (I note it's not the user who's able to do this, it's a sysadmin)
  143. Kev (And it leaves a tombstone)
  144. zinid any IM client (whatsapp, viber) has a function of deleting messages
  145. Zash Kev: Does it have custom protocol or some ad-hoc command?
  146. zinid you can even delete a message on remote end as well ;)
  147. Kev I forget how we do it, TBH. Adhoc, I expect.
  148. Zash You can send a message correction that changes it to an empty message or tombstone
  149. zinid true
  150. Ge0rG I think yaxim will ignore a body-less LMC.
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  152. Ge0rG and body-less in that context also includes messages with an empty body
  153. zinid can I using LMC "erase" arbitrary message, or only the last one?
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  155. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/message-retraction.html
  156. Ge0rG zinid: the XEP says you may only edit the last message, but I would consider it more practical to allow editing of the last N with N maybe around 20.
  157. Ge0rG Hm. The first time I proposed rolling back Carbons and Resource Locking was in 2015.
  158. zinid I think LMC is better (if it supports arbitrary deletion)
  159. zinid in this case you can design database easily (e.g. append only)
  160. Ge0rG zinid: send a mail to standards@ and propose a change.
  161. Ge0rG Kev: you suggested I write a thought-a-day series about the brokenness of current XMPP. If that was a serious proposal, what do you think would be the best venue to place that series?
  162. Kev It was semi-serious. I'm not 100% sure it's the best thing, but it seems like it might work. I was pondering a mail to standards@.
  163. Ge0rG Kev: I'm very interested in following through on that, in a form that's most acceptable to XSF members. I'm flexible regarding the form and the place to post, and personally I'd probably write a (very long) blog post instead.
  164. Kev I'm concerned that a very long blog post is likely to get TL;DRd.
  165. Kev (including by me)
  166. Ge0rG Because it allows to provide coherent arguments, has better markup and is not XSF-branded.
  167. Kev But give it a go :)
  168. Ge0rG Kev: what about a slide deck?
  169. Kev Oh, that has potential, including for if we do a high-bandwidth meeting to deal withit.
  170. Kev See what people-other-than-Kev think.
  171. Ge0rG people-other-then-Kev: I'd like to prepare a list of things that are currently broken in XMPP. What would be the best place for you to read it? standards@? my blog? XSF blog? a slide deck?
  172. jonasw I don’t care :)
  173. Ge0rG jonasw: as in "won't read it anyway" or as in "will red it either way"?
  174. jonasw the latter
  175. pep. Ge0rG, zinid, re LMC/deleting messages, that would only be true in a more-or-less controller context though, most client don't support LMC in semi-anon MUCs, and even when they do it would still be duplicated in the history
  176. zinid pep.: but you still "remove" it in your archive, which is the major goal
  177. Kev I'm keen it's not the XSF blog, FWIW.
  178. Ge0rG Kev: I just mentioned it for completeness sake. It was not really serious.
  179. pep. zinid, technically you don't remove it right? You just put a new message in front
  180. Guus Ge0rG: who's the intended audience?
  181. Ge0rG Guus: XSF members and people who implement MAM, Carbons, mobile clients etc.
  182. Ge0rG Guus: essentially everyone contributing to "modern" XMPP
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  184. Guus then the mailinglist seems appropriate
  185. Zash The jdev@ list?
  186. Guus members -> members, impelmentors -> jdev
  187. Ge0rG Guus: see above, a coherent presentation will lack formatting and be tl;dr for most.
  188. Guus pick your audience :)
  189. Guus Ge0rG: the more reason to pick your audience carefully.
  190. zinid pep.: yes, but this is kinda normal, your "delete command" appears as "delete marker" in the database, so the original messages becomes a tombstone
  191. zinid pep.: such approach is used in some distributed databases for example
  192. zinid in blockchains also
  193. Ge0rG dwd: (moving over from jdev@) I'd like to make a talk, but can't guarantee to be present.
  194. Kev I think this is standards@, not jdev.
  195. dwd Kev, MUC, not list.
  196. dwd Ge0rG, If you're not present, the talk will be less effective indeed.
  197. pep. zinid, so it wouldn't just be a simple "empty message", it would be more than that and the db (and MAM?) would react to this as well?
  198. Ge0rG dwd: right. The problem I'm trying to solve now is that the challenge is very complex, and most people lack the time.
  199. Kev dwd: Guus suggested mailing to the jdev list. I don't think that's the right venue.
  200. Ge0rG dwd: Kev suggested to make a series of one-thought-a-day posts to standards@, but I'm not sure I can split up the problem appropriately.
  201. dwd Ge0rG, I don't know... I think if you chop up each issue, explain What it is, Why it matters, Who needs to do the next step, and What they need to do, you'd find which issues you can get traction on quite quickly.
  202. Kev ^
  203. dwd Ge0rG, If you can't chop it up into smaller issues, then I genuinely think it's a lost cause. It becomes "EVERYTHING IS BORKEN, FIX IT PLS".
  204. Guus Kev: I suggested that he'd pick an audience, and suggested that if that was primarily (client/server) developers, he'd pick jdev.
  205. zinid pep.: db will not react, this goes to client: when it sees the "delete marker", it remembers it and when it matches a message it ignores the message (and/or deletes in local history)
  206. Ge0rG Guus: I think that standards@ would be the most appropriate place.
  207. Guus then go for that :)
  208. Ge0rG at least if the form is "mail(s) to a ML"
  209. pep. zinid, that doesn't work in semi-MUC for most clients
  210. zinid pep.: I know
  211. zinid but current message correction doesn't work in my Tkabber for exmaple :)
  212. zinid so?
  213. Guus Ge0rG: if it's really, really long, but structured, perhaps do this on the wiki?
  214. Zash If you are going to have mutable history, then MAM might not be what you want
  215. zinid pep.: you see, if you want to synchronize deletion with all resources (which can be offline at the moment), how will you do that?
  216. pep. No idea :/
  217. Ge0rG Okay folks, thanks for the feedback. I'll try to structure my thoughts first, then see how I can split them up.
  218. pep. I tend not to worry about deletion because I think it's just not possible
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  220. zinid right, that's not an easy way, people inventing tombstones and dotted vectors and stuff like that
  221. jonasw deleting a message via LMC in MAM sounds like a terrible idea to me. this leads to inconsistent state between clients, because they might not re-sync old entries.
  222. zinid jonasw: disagree
  223. jonasw hm, you’ll have that anyways, no matter how you delete
  224. jonasw but something feels off about that approach.
  225. zinid if you keep a delete marker you can synchronize easily
  226. zinid damn, this is done in almost every key-value store
  227. zinid but this is harder for clients to implement...
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  229. Zash Prosody MAM / archive code is mostly modeled to assume an append-only ordered list of messages
  230. zinid Zash: just like twitter btw :)
  231. zinid it's normal practice in high-load
  232. Zash Altho it's actually an ordered key-value thing, but the key-value-ness doesn't do very much
  233. zinid ejabberd uses SQL, so I don't care in fact, I'm just thinking that it would be great to have append-only for some usages
  234. jonasw LMC of messages before your last join are forbidden (via SHOULD) in the LMC XEP (0308)
  235. pep. jonasw, even if non-anonymous MUC?
  236. jonasw the XEP does not distinguish
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  239. Zash MUC doesn't tell you if historic messages are from the same senders as those currently present.
  240. Zash MUC-MAM might tho, I think
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  243. Ge0rG What's the current status of offline messages when a MAM-enabled client connects?
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  246. Ge0rG Will they be dumped to the client after initial presence, either way?
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  248. Zash Add that to the list of things we should figure out how they should interact
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  250. zinid Ge0rG: you can disable them using flexible offline message retrieval
  251. Zash zinid: xep 13?
  252. zinid yes
  253. Zash You implement that?
  254. zinid yes
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  257. zinid we can probably recommend bare minimum implementation for servers
  258. Ge0rG zinid: are there any clients making use of it?
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  261. zinid Ge0rG: only ProcessOne customer's clients
  262. Ge0rG Yay.
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  265. zinid yes, we recommend doing this :D
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  268. zinid because there is no other standard way
  269. zinid but of course XSF can invent something :)
  270. Ge0rG The <purge/> command is prone to race conditions. Yay.
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  276. Kev Ge0rG: And bind2 disables them.
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  284. Ge0rG Kev: I hope we can make bind2 part of the solution to the problems I'm outlining.
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  306. zinid Ge0rG: yes, races are possible, but not fatal, the server will not send you new messages anyway and you receive them via MAM later (so you don't lose them)
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  314. Kev Ge0rG: Yes, or something like it (e.g. Dave's 'wrap bind2 up in sasl2' proposal).
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  316. zinid xmpp2.0 is a better choice than bind2, sasl2 and others :)
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  323. Zash Is xmpp2 a concrete thing yet?
  324. Zash Or is it just the concept of "lets re-do all the things from scratch"?
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  327. zinid not concrete of course ;)
  328. jonasw there’s https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0
  329. zinid Ge0rG is making it concrete :D
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  331. Kev Zash: I think I'm explicitly trying *not* to redo everything from scratch.
  332. Guus Kev: that'd make for a good disclaimer on that page
  333. Guus on top
  334. Guus bold
  335. Guus in <blink>
  336. zinid lol
  337. zinid drama
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  339. Zash Is there anything on that page that's actually breaking compat enough to warrant a 2.0?
  340. Zash I mean, I imagine things like getting rid of 'jabber:client' and 'jabber:server' etc, and having a single unified namespace.
  341. Ge0rG Kev: I'm trying to redo from scratch the minimum amount of things so we can fix up our shit already.
  342. Ge0rG Zash: maybe it's only XMPP-IM 2.0
  343. Ge0rG my goal is not to break everything but to fix everything :P
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  347. zinid bind and sasl are defined in rfc6120, so this cannot be solved inside xmpp-im solely (unless we accept bind2 and sasl2)
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  349. Ge0rG zinid: bind2 can be a new XEP, without breaking anything actually.
  350. Ge0rG Redoing the message routing is much more tricky.
  351. jonasw Zash, I chose the name for that wiki page, and initially it wasn’t clear to me if we might have to override some ruling from the RFCs, basically warranting a 2.0
  352. Zash If you do things in the context of a negotiable stream feature, then I'm not sure I think that should be called XMPP 2.0
  353. jonasw Zash, that’s just a name anyways
  354. jonasw let’s call it a working title :)
  355. Ge0rG The name is the most important thing about a project!
  356. Ge0rG What about Session 2.0?
  357. Zash Ge0rG: I think you mean the logo, closely followed by the fancy website on a cool domain
  358. Guus The color is.
  359. Zash There's that old <session/> stream feature that's basically a noop everywhere I know
  360. zinid Ge0rG: there are other problems beyond message routing
  361. zinid Ge0rG: rosters, presences, all this shit is not modern anymore
  362. Zash Whut
  363. jonasw Ge0rG, Session 2.0 may indeed be a reasonable name
  364. zinid Zash: popular IMs don't even have presences, there is no point in them when everybody is online almost always
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  367. Zash I don't think any of that should be removed, but I'd like message routing to be detached from presence.
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  369. Zash Just because "popular IMs" don't show something front and center anymore doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses
  370. Ge0rG zinid: there is even a business use case for presence: synchronized DND
  371. zinid I didn't say it's useless, I said "not modern", meaning not used in popular IMs
  372. Kev I think lots of them have presence.
  373. Kev Slack, Discord, Whatsapp, Facebook all have presence.
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  375. Zash And I'm not going to listen to arguments that boil down to "because popularity", if I cared about that I wouldn't be here.
  376. Ge0rG There is real value in presence, and that's actually something that works pretty well on mobile, outside of initial presence flood from your roster when you connect.
  377. edhelas you have two kind of presences usages in the clients, manual (set by the user) or automatic (set by the client itself)
  378. zinid yeah, but it seems like they transmit only "chat" status
  379. daniel zinid: do you happen to know who - if any - from the beam project is going to the mentor summit?
  380. zinid i.e. when I open an app, I become available, when I close the app I become unavailable
  381. zinid daniel: /me and Holger
  382. Holger zinid: I'm not going to the summit :-)
  383. zinid this is regarding ejabberd projects, I cannot say about other BEAM projects
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  385. zinid ah
  386. zinid shit
  387. Holger I think Mickaël asked on the list and got no response.
  388. zinid I read it wrong way
  389. Holger So maybe nobody's going.
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  391. daniel zinid: but you are coming, right?
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  393. zinid no, sorry for confusion
  394. zinid I cannot leave russia, lol
  395. daniel That's too bad. Otherwise we would have had 3 xmpp related projects at the summit
  396. zinid maybe Mickael can go?
  397. zinid or Jerome? Chris?
  398. zinid but they are not mentors...
  399. Holger Trying to find his email.
  400. daniel If you haven't decided yet (and registered) then it's probably too late
  401. edhelas are we talking about the FOSDEM summit here ?
  402. daniel But they don't have to be mentors
  403. daniel edhelas: gsoc
  404. Holger zinid: Ah got it. No response indeed.
  405. edhelas oh ok
  406. zinid Holger: I don't even remember his mail
  407. daniel Have you never sent people to the summit?
  408. daniel It's a free trip to the US
  409. Holger zinid: It was on one of the 1,000 GSoC-related lists, maybe he forgot to add you to that one :-)
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  411. daniel And each time you can roll the gitmo dice
  412. zinid no idea, I'm really not into this summit stuff, Mickael is usually managing this
  413. Holger daniel: Last year someone from some other BEAM project went.
  414. Holger zinid: gsoc-mentors@process-one.net on Tue, 19 Sep 2017 09:25:38 +0200.
  415. zinid Holger: I'm not subscribed ;)
  416. Holger Hah.
  417. zinid yeah, I'm a terrible mentor, I said that :)
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  421. zinid I have a note: XMPP 2.0 Session Initiation The client and server must coordinate the required information for a sync as soon as possible: Authenticate Client sends a bind2 request containing: stream resumption id (optional, to faciliate Stream Resumption) last-known MAM message-id (optional, to achieve full synchronization) MAM request with a time-delta (optional, alternative to message-id if only the history of the last N time units is needed) initial presence (maybe?) MUCs to join (maybe?) The server automagically figures out whether to do a stream resumption or a MAM sync and provides according data to the client, generates presence broadcast accordingly
  422. zinid I think we're reinventing Matrix approach here in fact
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  424. zinid not that it's bad
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  428. zinid but what I see here is actually database synchronization between a server and a client
  429. Ge0rG zinid: I think it's good to treat session setup as a way to tell the client everything that changed since the last connect.
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  431. Ge0rG zinid: exactly, xmpp based database synchronization.
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  433. zinid Ge0rG: yes, but it looks overcomplicated, in normal situation you just need to send a point from where to download
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  437. zinid and I also think MUCs and one-to-one chats should not be treated differently
  438. zinid like in matrix, hehe
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  440. zinid not sure why we need stream resumption, the messages are in MAM already
  441. zinid seems redundant as well
  442. edhelas zinid, don't forget the Pubsub/PEP synchronisation as well
  443. edhelas that's wht we were looking into https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0312.html
  444. Ge0rG zinid: because session setup is much more expensive than resumption, and you will lose outgoing messages without the latter
  445. edhelas when I'm loggin in I'm spammed by hundreds of PEP/pubsub notifications for things that I already had before
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  447. zinid edhelas: well my idea is to have a "routing block", it can be a room or one-to-one chat or a pubsub-eventer where you can subscribe and unsubscribe, that's it
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  449. zinid edhelas: you're spammed because the desing is shit :P
  450. edhelas the design, or the implementation :p ?
  451. Ge0rG zinid: I'm not a fan of MUC MAM, but I try not to reinvent everything.
  452. Ge0rG Maybe it's a good idea in the grand scheme to have all MUCs synchronized to all devices by default.
  453. Alex Announcement : Board & Council elections 2017 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2017
  454. jonasw Alex, nice work :)
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  457. goffi Alex: s/2014/2017/
  458. Alex fixed :-)
  459. goffi :)
  460. Alex now you can add your names :-)
  461. SouL :D
  462. Alex or recruit the people who you think will do a great job in those roles
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  464. Guus Can we simply add those? 😈
  465. Ge0rG Alex: yay!
  466. Ge0rG It would be interesting to see "nominations"
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  469. Guus Likely: Boardy McBoardface and possibly all guys from Matrix.
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  477. jonasw looking forward to see who runs for board and council.
  478. Ge0rG I'd elect Boardy McBoardface. For Council.
  479. dwd A vote for Boardy McBoardface is actually a vote for David Attenborough, though.
  480. jonasw how that?
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  482. Ge0rG Maybe because of https://www.change.org/p/jo-johnson-sir-david-attenborough-to-change-his-name-to-boaty-mcboatface
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  484. Zash David McDavidface?
  485. Ge0rG Darth Zash.
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  633. Ge0rG dwd, Kev: so I'm trying out a new presentation form: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
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  636. edhelas when is this conference planned ?
  637. Ge0rG edhelas: this is the slide deck for a fictive conference.
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  647. zinid Ge0rG: nice list ;)
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  653. Ge0rG zinid: I knew you'd like it.
  654. mathieui Ge0rG, "MAM + MUC = madness" why?
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  656. Ge0rG mathieui: because you have to query individual MUCs for their archives, there are different incompatible versions etc.
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  659. zinid Ge0rG: but isn't this a good idea? to query only what you need, e.g. when you login you receive a list of mucs with unread messages number, you don't need to query them all, only when a user opens the chat window/tab
  660. mathieui which reminds me I have to patch mod_mam_muc at some point too
  661. Zash ?
  662. mathieui Zash, muc archives are forever
  663. mathieui which is bad
  664. mathieui and also open to anyone, even someone not in the room
  665. mathieui so you can scrape remotely any public MUC for its whole lifetime
  666. Ge0rG zinid: maybe. Depends on whether you want a full-sync client or on-demand sync
  667. Zash mathieui: Pretty sure it respects members-onlyness
  668. mathieui Zash, yes, it does
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  671. mathieui for members-only rooms, for which it indeed works like that
  672. Zash mathieui: I've considered making it optionally restrict access to eg members only, even in public rooms.
  673. mathieui the best way would be a muc configuration toggle
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  678. Ge0rG See, madness!
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  699. Ge0rG That ejabberd MSN bug is really bugging me.
  700. Ge0rG Oh, it's different now.
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  722. jonasw I see what you did there.
  723. Ge0rG I didn't do anything!
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  775. jonasw can we re-trigger a website build to update https://xmpp.org/extensions/ ?
  776. jonasw (two new XEPs)
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  783. Guus Kev, can you give me that privilege in hub.docker.com please?
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  786. SamWhited jonasw: Do you mean on Docker Hub or on EOS? It will happen automatically after a while I think; pretty sure Kev put it on a cron job.
  787. SamWhited I can trigger a rebuild on Docker Hub if that's all you need (I think?)
  788. Guus I put it in a cronjob
  789. Guus Sam, yes please
  790. Guus the cronjob will only check for a new docker image
  791. SamWhited oh, sorry, I lied, I don't have my credentials on this machine, sorry
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  802. Guus jonasw: find a typo, submit a PR, I'll merge :D
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  813. moparisthebest Guus, add or remove a space? :P
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