XSF Discussion - 2017-10-04

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  264. MattJ I don't think XEP-0156 security considerations go far enough
  265. MattJ DNS is insecure (in practice), and there is no requirement for the BOSH URL in DNS to match your login host
  266. MattJ So anyone with the ability to forge DNS for your domain can redirect XEP-0156-capable clients to any place they choose
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  276. Zash -xep 156
  277. Bunneh Zash: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods (Standards Track, Draft, 2016-06-07) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0156.html
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  279. Zash -xep dnssec
  280. Bunneh Zash: XEP-0344: Impact of TLS and DNSSEC on Dialback (Standards Track, Deferred, 2017-09-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0344.html
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  283. Flow MattJ: anyone with the ability for forge DNS for your domain can redirect clients to any place they choose
  284. MattJ and then you use TLS certificate verification to detect that
  285. MattJ and you don't go ahead with the connection
  286. Flow and that is not true for xep156?
  287. MattJ No
  288. MattJ The XEP recommends using HTTPS, but this is not enough
  289. jonasw Flow, well, it is true, but the attacker can choose the name the client validates against :)
  290. MattJ the BOSH URL can be https://mitm.badguy.net/http-bind
  291. Flow jonasw: with BOSH you validate the cert not against the XMPP domain you want to connect to?
  292. MattJ As long as the bad guy knows how to use Let's Encrypt to get a cert for his own domain, everything will work fine
  293. Flow ahh ok
  294. MattJ BOSH is just HTTPS, it was designed to be used where only a HTTPS API was available
  295. Flow yep, in that case xep156 should eventually require DNSSEC
  296. Zash Like how DNSSEC-signed SRV records are an acceptable proof of delegation
  297. jonasw as if you could enforce that in a JS client.
  298. Link Mauve Another issue is that browsers don’t expose DNSSEC validation to the application.
  299. moparisthebest has joined
  300. Link Mauve Hmm, no, that’s unrelated, the HTTP-based way in 0156 is fine, since it is done against the user’s domain.
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  326. moparisthebest Ge0rG, so https://op-co.de/blog/posts/java_sslsocket_mitm/ "undisclosed Android application (contacted on 2014-07-21)" is it time to name it yet? :)
  327. Flow I had discloused the application back then. I think there where no commits since then
  328. Flow Uh, I was wrong, last commit is less then 22 months ago
  329. moparisthebest so which app?
  330. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I'm pretty sure it was Xabber.
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  332. Flow Ge0rG: sure? I remember it was a different app
  333. Ge0rG Flow: I'll have a look at my mail archive some time later today
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  335. moparisthebest either way 3 years was probably enough time to name them :)
  336. moparisthebest they've either fixed it or never will at this point
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  338. Flow moparisthebest: there aren't that many xmpp clients for android which existed in 2014 and are not listed on the page
  339. Flow for example xabber is listed
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  390. jonasw to quote from council@: 15:31:23 Tobias> we have logs again, thanks to whoever did that I can only +1 that :)
  391. jonasw even with the logs from the past
  392. intosi :)
  393. la|r|ma has joined
  394. intosi The gap's there because we didn't log anything at all in that period.
  395. Guus blames intosi
  396. Guus ah, unfortunate timing of that message :)
  397. intosi * the six month gap between mid March and September.
  398. jonasw ohh
  399. jonasw I didn’t see that :)
  400. jonasw still amazing :)
  401. jonasw but at least from mid sept, that’s already good
  402. intosi Anything before The Event might not be there, even though the page claims it's there. It's a bit hit and miss.
  403. intosi Yet, didn't want to prune it.
  404. Link Mauve Want me to fill the logs I obtained during that time?
  405. Link Mauve They are in the mcabber/poezio format, which should be easy to convert into whatever format you are using.
  406. intosi @Link Mauve not a terrible idea. No idea when I have time to look at that, but if you have them, might as well pop them over and we can see when to fill in the blanks.
  407. moparisthebest watch out, Link Mauve could have modified logs for his own nefarious purposes
  408. Link Mauve I’ll send March-September for this room, do you want any other room I’m in?
  409. moparisthebest :P
  410. intosi moparisthebest: a valid point
  411. Link Mauve Like council@.
  412. Link Mauve moparisthebest, indeed.
  413. moparisthebest what, I don't remember the board electing Link Mauve XMPP king for life back in march, oh well, it's in the logs
  414. jonasw I can send my logs, too
  415. jonasw same format :)
  416. jonasw we can diff the textual content and see if there’s anything wrong there
  417. moparisthebest only if we trust you two aren't colluding
  418. jonasw the order should be equivalent, just the timestamps can be fuzzy.
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  420. SamWhited I smell collusion.
  421. jonasw nevar!
  422. Guus as if we should trust the both of you not conspiring...
  423. jonasw I still have a grudge against Link Mauve for not delivering the XEP update he promised, so there’s no way we are colluding!!k :-)
  424. intosi I can toss in whatever I have logged in my own archive, and make an outright mess of things ;)
  425. moparisthebest jonasw, that's exactly what someone colluding would say
  426. Ge0rG I can conspi.. eh.. contribute logs in the same format.
  427. Link Mauve :o
  428. jonasw Link Mauve, just kidding :)
  429. Link Mauve I will never collude again with you then!
  430. jonasw "again"?
  431. moparisthebest can we vote members out?
  432. Link Mauve jonasw, aren’t we colluding right now?
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  434. jonasw I’m too confused at this point.
  435. ralphm I'll likely not make the board meeting today, sorry
  436. Guus With SCAM, I'd like to get the effort underway to organize FOSDEM'18 & the corresponding summit. I'd be grateful if people that were invovled in earlier events could help out (as I'm unsure where to start)
  437. Guus please find us in either the summit or scam MUC!
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  439. Guus (but first: dinner! afk)
  440. Ge0rG summit dinner?
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  443. nyco Board meeting time
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  445. Martin Indeed
  446. Martin Who's around?
  447. nyco I'm here until :30
  448. jonasw I can take minutes
  449. nyco but "done is better than perfect" and "stop starting, start finishing"
  450. nyco oops
  451. nyco https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  452. Martin Getting a bit ahead of ourselves unless a third board member pipes up
  453. nyco few items
  454. Arc has joined
  455. Arc present.
  456. Martin Ah, splendid, we are 3
  457. nyco meh
  458. Martin Let's get started
  459. nyco go?
  460. Martin 1. Roll call
  461. nyco gavel, are you here?
  462. Martin Myself, nyco, and Arc in attendance
  463. Martin 2. Minutes. jonasw?
  464. nyco \m/
  465. jonasw yes
  466. MattJ Here
  467. Martin Ooh, a 4th, excellent
  468. nyco good!
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  470. Martin 3. Topics for decisions. Only thing on Trello is the logo, which I think we okayed last week?
  471. jcbrand has joined
  472. jonasw yes you did
  473. Martin OK
  474. Martin 4. Commitment list
  475. Martin 4.1 Council & board elections
  476. Martin I saw an email went out about these, what else do we need to do?
  477. dwd Martin, Put your name down? :-)
  478. nyco nothing? agree? say goodbye or apply again?
  479. Guus Perhaps board could reach out to nonmembers
  480. Martin I guess I'm asking the more seasoned hands if the Board have anything specific we need to do at this point?
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  483. dwd Martin, First, ensure that Alex has done the job, which he has.
  484. Arc i'll apply again
  485. dwd Martin, Second, note it for the record.
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  487. Martin Right, good, noted that Alex sent out the details to the members list. As Guus has mentioned, casting a wide net can't hurt.
  488. Martin 5. Items for discussion
  489. jonasw again?
  490. Martin 5.1 "Discuss renaming 'Draft' to 'Stable'
  491. Martin jonasw: Again what?
  492. jonasw aahhh
  493. jonasw I’m too stupid to discern "Discussion" and "decision"
  494. jonasw nevermind me
  495. jonasw (I thought we had "Topics for *discussion*" already, but it was "decision")
  496. Martin Mailing list ref: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-September/033441.html
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  499. Martin Any thoughts on this?
  500. Arc im not sure if we're the right body to decide this
  501. Martin I was wondering the same
  502. dwd Arc, You are, because changes to XEP-0001 (which this would be) are approved by Board.
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  504. nyco "Recommandation", "Request For Comments": what does it mean?
  505. nyco what are the expected benefits of such a name change? for whom?
  506. jonasw nyco, I think this has been discussed in the standards@ thread
  507. Martin Yeah, there still seems to be a fair bit of discussion going on in the mailing list, might be worth seeing how that pans out
  508. Arc seems it, yes
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  510. jonasw the discussion has been stalled for more than one week
  511. Guus That discussion wasn't followed up on any longer.
  512. Martin Blame my inability to navigate mailing lists
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  514. Arc Guus: you're running for the board, right?
  515. Guus Did Council have a statement/
  516. Guus Am I?
  517. Guus I'm considering it, but I've got a bit much boards on my plate as it is :)
  518. Arc me too
  519. Martin OK, correct me if I'm mis-reading the ML thread, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus?
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  522. Martin So there's a discussion, and it seems to have come to a halt, but not to a conclusion...
  523. Guus I think the consensus was to not rename 'experimental' (but strive for XEPs to not linger in that state), but to rename 'draft'
  524. dwd Guus, I proposed the specific case of Draft => Stable, and even I'm not convinced that has genera agreement from people.
  525. Guus I'm under the impression that this was also discussed and agreed on by Council, but I'm not sure?
  526. Guus Okay, I might have misread/misinterpreted. I've not been able to keep up the pace the last few days.
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  528. dwd Council didn't approve it; it decided to let discussion continue and see what the Board said.
  529. Guus So, what needs to happen for Board to decide either way?
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  531. Guus "further discussion" won't happen without incentive
  532. Guus dwd, I apologize for the confusion, I must have mixed up a few things.
  533. Guus I'll try to pay better attention next time :)
  534. MattJ I think the discussion has been too varied so far. Before I'd want to approve any change with a Board hat on, I'd rather see a very specific proposal backed by members
  535. Martin +1 to that MattJ
  536. Arc +1 to MattJ
  537. dwd was about to type roughly what MattJ said.
  538. MattJ I can post such a proposal to the list
  539. nyco +1 to dwd
  540. Martin Thanks MattJ
  541. Guus MattJ, please do
  542. Martin 5.2 Outsource trademark license application decisions from board to separate WG
  543. Martin Did this come from you, Guus?
  544. Guus Nope. Ge0rG, I think
  545. Martin Mixing up my G's
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  547. Guus We get that a lot.
  548. Ge0rG It was me.
  549. Martin Not much context around it on Trello. I created the card so I probably should've asked for more at the time.
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  551. Ge0rG Not a very serious proposal, just because board had such a long no-meeting time.
  552. Martin Are/were there applications that got held up?
  553. jonasw mine did
  554. jonasw by a week or so
  555. jonasw nothing urgent though
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  557. Martin Feels like a sledgehammer to crack a nut, if the cliche translates.
  558. jonasw I tend to agree
  559. Martin OK, I'll archive it
  560. Martin Ok, let's bring this to a close.
  561. Martin 6. AOBs?
  562. Guus Martin, Arc, where do you work, and what's your primary interest in XMPP, in one or two lines?
  563. nyco nope
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  565. Martin My AOB is I won't be able to attend the next 3 board meetings due to holidays.
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  567. Martin 7. Time & date of next, +1W?
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  569. MattJ wfm
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  571. Arc good
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  574. Martin Right, think we're done. Thanks everyone.
  575. nyco +1w
  576. Guus Martin, Arc?
  577. nyco gotta go, thx, bye!
  578. ralphm Sorry again, guys.
  579. Martin Guus: I work for Surevine, my interest is in using federation to make systems that fit an organisation, not the other way around.
  580. Guus thanks. Arc?
  581. ralphm Ge0rG: not cool at all.
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  583. Arc Guus: ?
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  585. ralphm Your oneliner for the record
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  587. jonasw 16:31:51 Guus> Martin, Arc, where do you work, and what's your primary interest in XMPP, in one or two lines?
  588. jonasw that’s the context I guess
  589. Guus yup
  590. Guus yeah, I've now ripped it from your last membership application.
  591. Guus bio PR in 3, 2, 1...
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  594. Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/376
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  599. Guus does martin have a github account?
  600. Guus ah, found it
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  603. Guus Kev, you here by any chance?
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  612. Ge0rG ralphm: pardon me please? What's not cool m
  613. Ge0rG s/m/?/
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  620. Arc I won't be tricked into giving a bio :-P
  621. Guus Arc: please note that a bio has been provided none-the-less. :)
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  623. Arc good, then its not autobio :-P
  624. Guus Kev, Bear, Peter, Ralphm (Lloyd that I don't know). Please elevate me from member to owner on our github repo, add me to the team on dockerhub, and provide me with the twitter credentials. It'd be good to have someone else be available to help people out with requests in order to speed up things (and as I'm currently the requestee most of the time, who's also in iteam, I'd be a logical candidate).
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  640. Guus what's the name for this part in the domain name of a component? thispart.example.org ?
  641. ralphm label, I think
  642. ralphm But that's DNS terminology, not specific to XMPP
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  644. ralphm In XMPP, other than for DNS resolution, the domain is opaque
  645. SamWhited There are three labels in that domain name though. I suspect Guus wants to refer specifically to the subdomain
  646. ralphm There's no intrinsic relation between example.org and sub.example.org
  647. SamWhited It's still common to need to refer to the sub. part though
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  650. Zash "fully qualified"?
  651. ralphm That is nothing more than convention
  652. ralphm The whole thing is fqdn, sure
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  654. ralphm The leftmost part is then a hostname
  655. Zash Not sure if fqdn is a well-defined term tho
  656. ralphm Totally is
  657. ralphm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_qualified_domain_name
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  659. jonasw the common term is third-level domain
  660. jonasw which also caters for "top-level" domains like .co.uk somewhat
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  662. jonasw (cc @ Guus)
  663. Guus Thanks (putting kids to bed now, afk)
  664. jonasw have fun
  665. Guus Also, ralphm : Kev, Bear, Peter, Ralphm (Lloyd that I don't know). Please elevate me from member to owner on our github repo, add me to the team on dockerhub, and provide me with the twitter credentials. It'd be good to have someone else be available to help people out with requests in order to speed up things (and as I'm currently the requestee most of the time, who's also in iteam, I'd be a logical candidate).
  666. Guus Please elevate my permissions.
  667. ralphm I'm not near a device to easily do these things
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  673. Guus in xmpp, component domains need not be subdomains of the xmpp domain?
  674. Zash Nope
  675. Link Mauve Nope.
  676. Guus wow. Pretty sure that that's not supported in any of our code
  677. Link Mauve Prosody special-cases those by advertising them in the disco#items of the “parent” domain, other servers may do similar things.
  678. Zash By convention
  679. Link Mauve Guus, by “your”, do you mean OF?
  680. Guus yeah, and Whack
  681. Guus the external component implementation that we have
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  683. Guus Perhaps that's because I've always thought this way, but why would one not want an external component to be hierarchically under the xmpp domain? It's part of the same realm, no?
  684. Link Mauve Because there is no relation between them.
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  687. stefandxm also think about PKI/certificates
  688. stefandxm in a decentralized sollution you need to have mulitple independant root certificates
  689. stefandxm (it is the sam argument as @Link Mauve says really, just a different angle)
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  691. Guus does someone actually use addressing like that for external components?
  692. Guus working with my own stuff, i've obviously never seen it. Nor had or heard of the need.
  693. Zash Outside of the component protocol, it's just another JID
  694. Link Mauve Guus, at JabberFR we serve some 73 user domains, all of them share the same set of components to provide them nice additional features.
  695. Guus Cool
  696. Guus one of the many things to improve on, then
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  700. stefandxm Guus, what do you mean? Multiple domains?
  701. stefandxm multiple domains without s2s?
  702. stefandxm or?
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  704. Guus stefandxm: Link already answered, but I was wondering if there were external components "in the wild" that really have an address that's not a subdomain of the (single) xmpp domain that they're connected to.
  705. Guus that's how I've always used them
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  708. Guus I've been looking at our code - don't even think it would be to hard to change for Openfire - but then again, I wonder if it's worth the trouble
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  710. stefandxm we had it at my old job
  711. stefandxm we ran a hybrid cloud
  712. stefandxm our cloud was in cloud.companydomain.top
  713. stefandxm rather than company.cloud.top
  714. stefandxm it makes more sense securitywise when it comes to firewalls
  715. stefandxm its also very nice to use for onboarding
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  717. stefandxm and not only firewalls but in general. because of certificates again
  718. stefandxm if you run xmpp.company.com
  719. stefandxm you can have a certificate that is linked to the company
  720. stefandxm how would you know to trust company.xmpphost.com ?
  721. stefandxm all you know is that you want to trust company.com
  722. stefandxm what is this xmpphost?
  723. moparisthebest company.xmpphost.com has a certificate valid for company.com, that's how
  724. moparisthebest or, DNSSEC
  725. stefandxm sure
  726. stefandxm my bad. its of course possible
  727. stefandxm albeit seen implementations not liking it
  728. stefandxm but that just buggy =)
  729. stefandxm but i still hold that xmpp.company.com makes more sense
  730. moparisthebest the name doesn't matter at all
  731. moparisthebest you validate the name in the cert
  732. moparisthebest it's actually more code to care whether it's a subdomain or not
  733. stefandxm its a dual side of the coin really
  734. stefandxm yeah
  735. stefandxm and in reality code is what makes everything works
  736. stefandxm lets say you have microsoft.knownfisher.com
  737. stefandxm will you like this certificate even if you would trust the PKI for the certificate alone?
  738. stefandxm its not trivial in reality. but i agree so i dont want to argue :)
  739. stefandxm However. I found out the buildscript issue
  740. stefandxm so know i updated http://opensource.clayster.com/lwtsd/Communications/lwtsd
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  742. stefandxm with "new" error management
  743. stefandxm ill send it in as an xep if there is enough people who thinks it is worth the work
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  763. moparisthebest so the call for experience on '368 ended yesterday, what's the procedure for a few clerical updates on a draft xep? do I just put in a PR or what?
  764. moparisthebest I suppose council votes or something?
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  782. jonasw moparisthebest, ask me again tomorrow if nobody replies to you in the meantime
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  800. ralphm There's always room for textual changes for clarification and typos and such. A PR seems like a good start. Naturally it is up to the Editors to discuss with Council if a change meets the requirements in section 9.4 of XEP-0001: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#states-Final
  801. ralphm moparisthebest: ^
  802. moparisthebest it's just more clarification and 1 change from SHOULD to MAY
  803. moparisthebest but yeal I'll put in a PR and go from there, thanks ralphm
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