XSF Discussion - 2017-10-06

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  23. moparisthebest Ha this is the same argument as the one against e2e earlier https://www.quakenet.org/articles/99-trust-is-not-transitive-or-why-irc-over-ssl-is-pointless
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  62. zinid moparisthebest: seems like the dude only concerned about mitm?
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  115. vanitasvitae Hi! Awesome to see that JET is now experimental :D I noticed some formatting issues in the pdf though. The table under §5 is crippled. Since this is likely to occure elsewhere as well, I thought I'd bring that to your attention :)
  116. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: the best approach is probably to open an issue on the xeps repo. Or even to provide a patch ;)
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  118. vanitasvitae Guus told me, that SamWhited and jonasw are doing some work on this, so let me ping you :)
  119. vanitasvitae I'm not familiar with the pdf build process, so I think I'll just open an issue (if there is none yet)
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  123. Guus I don't think they're still actively working on it - but things did change recently.
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  130. vanitasvitae I opened https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/521
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  143. jonasw nobody is familiar with the pdf build process :D
  144. jonasw yeah, I doubt we can do anything about that
  145. jonasw (looking at the issue)
  146. jonasw it’s simply too wide for the PDF output
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  148. vanitasvitae yeah, I guess you're right
  149. jonasw ideally editors would proofread the PDF output and ensure that it is nice, but ...
  150. jonasw I’m actually more inclined to terminate PDF output altogether than doing that ;-)
  151. vanitasvitae In that case there is not much to do I guess :D
  152. vanitasvitae But pdfs are so nice... :D
  153. jonasw I prefer the HTML version, esp. since Sams recent CSS fixes
  154. jonasw one of the few things I prefer to have in my browser over a separate application
  155. Guus vanitasvitae: can you replace the namespace by a (shorter) reference to a namespace, somehow?
  156. jonasw that would probably do the trick, yes
  157. vanitasvitae maybe get rid of the "-"s as a first step?
  158. vanitasvitae and shorten "nopadding" to "nopad"?
  159. Guus hey, the logo on the PDF (first page), looks weird
  160. Guus it's the old / broken logo, but also has black colors for the outside bits, instead of the blue?
  161. vanitasvitae thats an issue with firefox I think
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  163. jonasw weird
  164. jonasw no
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  166. Guus might be, but I'm using Chrome :)
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  168. jonasw it’s also in the original PDF of the logo
  169. jonasw super weird
  170. vanitasvitae the logo is rendered differently in pdf viewers and browsers I think
  171. vanitasvitae at least I noticed that some time ago
  172. jonasw can’t easily fix that though, because the PDF includes the "XMPP" text for which I don’t have the font I think
  173. jonasw no, it is definitely also in the source files, vanitasvitae
  174. Guus what format is the source?
  175. jonasw this is extremely ugly https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/FHNZUlDByHqPUgjwj1Cq2EhPat6zvV5sfbTtJ__tlLI.png
  176. jonasw PDF
  177. Guus bah
  178. jonasw I can try to mess with it to embed the new logo in that, should be doable
  179. vanitasvitae PDF missing the main purpose of its existence :D
  180. Guus I've got SVGs for the logo, but not the text
  181. jonasw how did you make xmpp.png then?
  182. jonasw by hand?
  183. Guus yeah, I erased the logo, copied in a newly generated one from SVG using the correct size
  184. jonasw okay
  185. Guus interestingly, the page headers also have a (very small) logo, where the colors are correct.
  186. jonasw yupp
  187. jonasw those are two different files
  188. jonasw patching them now
  189. Guus thanks :)
  190. Guus I'm somewhat surprised that the source components are PDFs themselves. Then again, I know nothing.
  191. jonasw that’s usual for LaTeX
  192. jonasw you can only have PDF as vector format without extra packages when building with {pdf,xe,lua}latex
  193. jonasw now that’s interesting
  194. jonasw https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/4jcYqbi6zp4l-yyi1U5yz7Dhwjj0O_q_ScQz9oN7Gvs.png
  195. jonasw the pdf including the text contains quite a bit more
  196. jonasw notably, the blue tones are not included in the design specs on the top left
  197. Guus Ah, that's by the original designer
  198. Guus Raja
  199. Guus he's who I talked to earlier.
  200. Guus also, it lists a typeface? :)
  201. Guus Eurostile Bold Extended
  202. Guus https://www.google.be/search?q=Eurostile+Bold+Extended&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjh86TbwtvWAhXQJFAKHca3B5EQsAQIMA&biw=1855&bih=990
  203. Guus seems to be it :)
  204. jonasw that PDF is super weird
  205. jonasw but I guess that’s what you get from opening PDFn with inkscape
  206. Guus those appear to be printing masters
  207. Guus it's probably what the original authors of the PDF generation had available at the time
  208. jonasw making a test build with patched PDFs
  209. jonasw (now I in fact wonder if all built PDFs contain the whole printing master...)
  210. jonasw (or if something is smart enough to crop that out)
  211. jonasw (which I doubt, because it’s pdflatex we’re speaking about)
  212. jonasw well, xelatex
  213. Guus how big is it? If it's just a fraction of the total size, I wouldn't bother improving it further
  214. jonasw a few kiB
  215. jonasw I was just wondering conceptually
  216. jonasw because that’s essentially the XMPP Corporate Design ;-)
  217. jonasw thereifixedit: https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xep-0391.pdf cc @ Guus
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  220. Guus fun fact: the font used for the 'XMPP' text in our logo is also used in 2001: A Space Odyssey, for the interface of HAL. :)
  221. Guus ah, much better, thanks!
  222. jonasw let’s push that
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  224. jonasw now I get the feeling that I did already quite a lot today! :-)
  225. Guus and it's only 10 am :)
  226. jonasw exactly!
  227. Guus wanna pop over to jdev and see if you have feedback on my question there? :)
  228. Guus oh, you already were there :)
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  230. jonasw there you go ;-)
  231. Guus tx :)
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  233. Ge0rG It's 10 AM and I feel like weekend already
  234. jonasw Ge0rG, good news: weekend for me already. wait. that’s only good news for me. sorry.
  235. Guus you just told us you were available.
  236. Guus that might've been a mistake :P
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  238. jonasw Guus, do you have power over the dockerhup by now? If so, does that include the xeps builds? That’d be good to know.
  239. Kev He does, yes.
  240. jonasw great. Just in case there are issues again, but I suspect now that we don’t source stuff from sourceforge anymore, it should be fine
  241. Guus (what Kev said)
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  332. Flow dwd: What was the motivation for renaming the 'mechanism' to 'task' in SASL2?
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  334. Kev IIRC because it can do things other than present SASL mechs. I could be wrong.
  335. Flow k, thanks
  336. dwd It also can't do the things mechanisms do. Like change the authorization identifier. Plus they need one to start.
  337. Flow can <task> could also contain a SASL mech?
  338. dwd Doubtful.
  339. Flow Wasn' t one idea that multiple mechs could be chained with SASL2?
  340. Guus did you use two different clients just now, dwd?
  341. Guus your nickname had different colors in Spark
  342. dwd Guus, Conversations for both those (Gajim for this one). Probably Conversations was detached; it looks like it injected a delay stamp.
  343. dwd Flow, So yes, the idea originally was that all these things are SASL mechs. But in practise, when developing, they're not. The first thing is a SASL mech, any subsequent ones are similar to mechanisms but distinct in that they're provided with an authzid, and cannot change it.
  344. Flow authzid was the thing which would allow you to impersonate another entity, right?
  345. Kev Not impersonate, but yes.
  346. dwd Flow, No, the authzid is the (most important) output of the SASL process. In XMPP, it's your jid.
  347. Flow ahh, ok, then it's the authcid I was thinking about
  348. Kev It's the thing that tells you what you are.
  349. dwd Flow, Probably not.
  350. Flow then what's the authcid again?
  351. Guus you authentiCate with authcid, you are then authoriZed for using authzid
  352. Flow An authorization identity is an OPTIONAL identity included by the initiating entity to specify an identity to act as
  353. dwd Flow, The authentication identifier is the identifier used to identify you to the SASL mechanism. Typically you don't specify an authzid, and again typically in XMPP the authcid is just the local-part of the jid and the authzid is then figured out from that.
  354. Flow That does sound like authzid is what I said it is
  355. dwd Flow, It is optional to supply, because it can be derived (normally).
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  357. dwd Flow, You do, always, end up with an authzid. Worth looking at TLS+EXTERNAL as an example - your authcid there is the certificate (or arguably the Subject of it). The authzid might be derived from it (usually from a SAN) or you might supply it.
  358. dwd Flow, There's no "impersonation" going on, though that, too, in as option (known as "Proxy Authentication", because you're authenticating to be a proxy for another user)
  359. Flow So what exactly is the problem that following SASL mechs can't change the authzid? Usually you either never provide the authzid or you provide it, in which case all chained mechs should/must provide the same
  360. dwd Flow, There's absolutely no power on earth that'll make me try to implement that. It's a nightmare.
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  363. Flow And what is the point in being able to optionally supply the authzid? Re-using the same credentials for different accounts?
  364. Flow Anyway, I don't see a problem that subsequent mechs can not change the authzid
  365. Guus I'm no expert, but, I thought it was primarily used when the username you authenticate with isn't an exact match with the account name that you're authenticate for.
  366. dwd Flow, Sometimes to avoid confusion (like with TLS+EXTERNAL), sometimes for Proxy Auth. Also, if you've a username from, say, Active Directory that's not valid for XMPP, this be a way around that problem too.
  367. Flow I think we mixing two aspects of authzid: The one is where a sasl mech can optionally provide it, the other one is that you only know your full JID after being authenticated
  368. dwd Flow, Input and output, is all.
  369. Flow For chaining mechs, only the former can be possibly relevant, and I don't see why we can't simply say that all chained mechs must provide the same authzid, if they provide any at all
  370. dwd Flow, Why do you want to?
  371. Flow Guus: Yep, besides that your username can be completly different from the localpart of the JID you get
  372. Flow dwd: Why do I want to chain SASL mechs? Well the idea sounded appealing to me back then. And I don't see why we gave up on it
  373. dwd Flow, Because I tried implementing it and it was horrible.
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  375. dwd Flow, Whereas I *have* implemented the current spec, along with TOTP etc, and it all works well.
  376. Flow dwd: Maybe, but what is different by having tasks now? SASL mechs are basically just a sequences of challenges and responses, surely tasks are very similar to that?
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  379. dwd Flow, Yes, the protocol interface is the same, but the internal server-side interface is pretty different.
  380. Flow dwd: shouldn't ex4 in xep388 show a bare jid, or, when do I get a full JID at this stage?
  381. Flow ahh, we do bind2 there also
  382. Flow uh and bind2 still has no support for a client provided part ☹
  383. Kev Is anyone ready to implement bind2? If so I'll try to find time to add that.
  384. Flow and sasl2 can be used without bind2? A lot of possibilities ☺
  385. Flow (but it's getting complicated)
  386. Kev dwd: Did you do bind2 with sasl2, or not?
  387. dwd Kev, I've been toying with a bind2 embedded in sasl2 in my implementation just to see, but I've not tried it yet.
  388. Flow Kev: ex2 in xep388 hints at bind2
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  390. dwd Flow, Also ISR. But I've not quite finished 198 resumption yet, so...
  391. dwd Flow, I think I said (read: I meant it to say) it was a hypoethetical extension, in ex2.
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  415. moparisthebest ha AOL is finally killing AIM
  416. moparisthebest I... didn't know it was still alive
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  436. Alex ya, just read the news here: https://aimemories.tumblr.com/
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  438. SamWhited That's AIM, MSN Messenger, and Yahoo Messenger all gone… the 90's are finally over :'(
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  442. moparisthebest well we still have XML >:)
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  445. SamWhited Only the worst part of the 90's are still around…
  446. SamWhited goes to rewatch `The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air' to make himself feel better
  447. dwd moparisthebest, Where? We're now using a "React-like wire protocol", remember?
  448. moparisthebest dwd, I haven't heard of that but it sounds terrifying
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  465. dwd No, no. It's great. It'll get us all the cool kids now. Better than json.
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  470. Guus I heard you use this argument a few days ago
  471. Guus so presumably, there now is a newer fashion.
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  489. moparisthebest ...
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  491. moparisthebest longtime guy in IRC channel mentions jabber, I say that's awesome when did you start using it
  492. moparisthebest he says just now to try to talk to some drug dealers from darkweb sites
  493. moparisthebest so, that's nice haha
  494. zinid definitely success
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  510. dwd moparisthebest, Well, at least we have a dedicated niche market.
  511. moparisthebest yea use is exploding in a certain market segment I guess
  512. moparisthebest anyone want to sign up and ask about usability issues, UI problems etc
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  514. Guus yeah, lets fix those nasty spam control issues that they're experiencing for them
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  516. moparisthebest I can probably get the .onion site domain haha
  517. moparisthebest see here is a segment that probably values forward secrecy over long term archives right?
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  519. dwd moparisthebest, Depends if they have a sideline in blackmail, I guess.
  520. moparisthebest guess the 'seller' is using jodo.im I'm guessing it has IBR enabled judging by the flash 9.0 required on the http page
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