XSF Discussion - 2017-10-09

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08:19:22 vanitasvitae > prime audience for the use of end to end encryption (drug addicts) [...] Sad how scared of authorities he seems to be :(
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08:20:06 jonasw I think in russia it’s a bit healthy to be scared of authorities......
08:20:52 mathieui in western countries too, tbh
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08:21:21 jonasw mathieui, I think there it’s healthy to have respect of authorities. Scared is another level.
08:21:46 mathieui well, not "scared", but "expecting the worse of them at all times"
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12:09:11 Flow Is there a way to retrieve all newer PubSub items after the item with ID X?
12:09:34 jonasw Flow, with RSM possibly
12:09:39 jonasw Result Set Management, it’s a XEP
12:09:44 jonasw apparently some pubsub services support that
12:10:14 Flow I don't found anything in xep59, xep60 and xep313
12:10:34 jonasw wouldn’t you give the item ID as minimum and then query everything after that?
12:10:38 Flow RSM appears to be more about "paging through the resulting set"
12:10:46 Flow not about that particular query
12:11:54 Flow it is not necessarly clear that the RSM IDs are the same as PubSub item IDs.
12:12:55 jonasw yeah
12:13:00 jonasw I’ve seen them differing, too
12:13:26 MattJ I think that's what https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sect-idm139955456388768 was for
12:13:56 intosi MAM ids != PubSub item IDs. If only because those are not guaranteed to be unique.
12:14:13 Flow too many IDs ;/
12:14:27 Ge0rG Flow: that's what I said, recently.
12:14:31 Holger Flow: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0312.html
12:14:34 Ge0rG Flow: but you didn't like it :(
12:14:41 Flow Ge0rG: out of context
12:14:47 Holger Flow: Not sure (where) that's implemented, though.
12:14:50 intosi On any given service, only (node id, item id) needs to uniquely point to an item. But you can republish an item with the same ID, which would defeat the purpose of the id in MAM.
12:14:53 Ge0rG Flow: "too many IDs" is true irregardless of context.
12:15:20 Holger Flow: Ah nonsense, that only works with a timestamp.
12:15:59 Flow So there is no way to catch up on pubsub items while offline, presuambly because the assumption is that you will get the notifications about new items also while offline?
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12:16:44 Holger Hmm well 0312 does somewhat try to provide that, no?
12:16:52 Flow I really start to dislike xep0060. Not only is there no way to reliable get the publisher's JID, you also can't do the simplest queries…
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12:17:49 Kev That's why someone at the Summit was suggesting using 313 for 60 queries.
12:19:19 Holger goffi's PubSub component does MAM, I think.
12:35:52 vanitasvitae jonasw, If I want to make changes to JET, shall I make these changes in xep-0391, or inbox/jet?
12:37:03 Ge0rG vanitasvitae: inbox/jet should cease to be a thing as soon as it's got a number
12:37:12 vanitasvitae okay :)
12:40:55 jonasw Ge0rG, no, it still exists for historical purposes
12:40:59 jonasw vanitasvitae, updates against xep-0391.xml
12:42:32 Ge0rG maybe we could get rid of that, we've got git history after all.
12:43:22 jonasw Ge0rG, I think the purpose is to have it on the webserver too
12:45:18 vanitasvitae jonasw, I noticed, that the XEP mentions a dependency on 234 (jingle file transfer). Is this necessary? JET should work for other Jingle usecases too, even when a client does not implement 234.
12:46:53 vanitasvitae Looks like I added that dependency, when the document was still titled "Jingle Encrypted Transfers"
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12:50:24 jonasw vanitasvitae, I didn’t add that depedency :)
12:50:31 jonasw feel free to modify that
12:50:34 vanitasvitae okay
12:50:56 jonasw ~~in Experimental, you can as author basically everything~~ ✎
12:51:03 jonasw in Experimental, you can do basically everything as author ✏
12:51:29 jonasw you just need to preserve compatibility
12:51:56 vanitasvitae okay. I should also add revisions, right?
12:59:16 jonasw vanitasvitae, you SHOULD, yes. An editor will do that if you don’t.
12:59:35 jonasw when you do it, you have the chance to make the revision text as meaningful as possible :)
12:59:35 vanitasvitae :D I'll do you the favor :)
13:00:26 jonasw if you would follow the spirit of semantic versioning when choosing the next version number, that’d be great
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14:25:02 Flow So MAM with PubSub only improvement are the query conditions 'start', 'end' and 'with'. But we could specify a PubSub specific (after|before)-pubsub-item-id?
14:26:03 Zash Does mam+pubsub mean mam-rsm ids are pubsub ids or?
14:26:26 Flow Zash: intosi says no
14:27:05 Zash Altho with pubsub ids being user-controlled ... and sometimes always "current", glhf
14:27:06 Flow For the same reason I had to invent a new "value" for the "Atomically Compare-And-Publish PubSub Items" XEP
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14:28:17 Flow (Of course the reasoning is not false, I just think that it is a design flaw that IDs may point to different content, instead of having an <item-retracted/> marker)
14:28:41 Flow Zash "always "current""?
14:28:49 jonasw Flow, maybe you could first specify your new ID for re-use by different things and then build CAP on top of that?
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14:29:15 Flow jonasw: I'm not sure if it's of any use
14:29:16 Zash Flow: In a bunch of PEP things, the item ID is always the string "current"
14:29:36 Flow besides of the compare-and-publish case
14:30:07 Zash this https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#impl-singleton
14:30:28 intosi Zash: indeed. And just the fact that the Item ID is something the publisher can provide, instead of letting the server guarantee its uniqueness across the service, is enough to invalidate it for MAM id.
14:30:43 Zash Yeah
14:30:54 Zash Like with message@id
14:31:47 Zash Hm, does that mean thaw MAM+PubSub is doomed?
14:32:23 Flow Zash: You can still use 'start', 'end' and 'with'
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14:32:44 Zash Yes
14:32:54 Flow And specify further fields for MAM+PubSub like after-pubsub-item-id
14:33:05 Zash Does the pubsub service have final say over the item id?
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14:33:22 intosi MAM with Pubsub has semantics that differ from Pubsub retrieval anyway, as you're likely to get the same itemid more than once in some use cases.
14:34:14 MattJ I was never convinced about MAM+pubsub
14:34:31 Zash MattJ: Weren't you the one who said "Just use MAM?" back then?
14:34:44 MattJ niirc :)
14:34:51 Zash I REMEMBER EVERYTHING .. almost
14:35:00 intosi I use MAM instead of remembering everything.
14:35:23 Ge0rG I use a server-side client with logging.
14:35:27 MattJ ^
14:35:29 Ge0rG MAM is too bumpy.
14:36:20 Zash Or you can just forget everything the instant it scrolls off the screen. If it was important then they shouldn't have written it over an ephemeral instant messaging thing! :)
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21:24:48 Nathan ...
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21:26:40 edhelas we can change the 0060
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21:27:15 edhelas it's not like we have many Pubsub + MAM implementation in the wild :p
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22:52:02 Nathan are there any impacts of MAM?
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23:51:31 Zash Impacts?
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