XSF Discussion - 2017-10-11

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  132. Ge0rG Kev: did you have some time to ponder about further MUC self-ping options?
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  141. Kev It completely dropped out of context, sorry.
  142. Ge0rG Kev: I'd really like to see at least a short write-up on the other options, because I've pondered some time about what can be done and don't see anything that's significantly different from (1)-(3)
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  244. Tobias dwd, ping
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  246. Tobias care to join council?
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  270. nyco Board weekly in 10 min ?
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  273. Ge0rG hopefully so
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  275. MattJ In 5
  276. Zash 5 minutes passed in 6m45s?
  277. MattJ My server (where poezio runs) has a perpetually drifting clock, so it's only 16:52 right now
  278. jonasw sudo timedatectl set-ntp on
  279. Ge0rG In 5!
  280. nyco go?
  281. nyco I'll leave at :30 as usual
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  283. nyco Mattj, arc, Ralphm?
  284. MattJ Here
  285. nyco 2
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  288. dwd Martin is unavailable, I'm afraid.
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  291. nyco still 2 at :05
  292. nyco dwd, in case wanna catch the air, and put it on paper?
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  294. dwd nyco, Erm?
  295. nyco minutes taking
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  299. MattJ Looks like we'll be skipping this week
  300. nyco yep, thx anyway
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  302. dwd Yes, I'd absolutely love to take minutes, then.
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  308. Ge0rG I think we had some other unique client identifier besides resourcepart and 0198 resume-id, but I don't remember any more.
  309. dwd Ge0rG, Muttered about in bind2, no?
  310. Ge0rG dwd: was it separate from the resourcepart proposal?
  311. Ge0rG I really hate the "<client-unique-id>/<server-generated-id>" idea, but I seem to be a minority here.
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  313. Zash Eh
  314. Kev Ge0rG: I'm not a fan, but I don't see another solution that satisfies both requirements (that some people want to be able to identify the client by its resource, and that servers need to be able to generate (part of) the resource themselves).
  315. Kev But if you can come up with something better, I'm sure everyone will be happy.
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  317. Zash Maybe satisfying everyone isn't possible.
  318. jonasw at least we need to define what happens if two sessions with the same client-unique-id try to connect for the same account
  319. Ge0rG Kev: I still fail to follow the "servers need to be able to generate (part of) the resource themselves" argument, unfortunately.
  320. Ge0rG jonasw: they won't try to connect at the same time, hopefully.
  321. Ge0rG jonasw: otherwise, the most recent attempt should win.
  322. moparisthebest why not just let them both log in?
  323. moparisthebest presumably the bad one will time out or disconnect eventually
  324. Kev Ge0rG: You end up needing to essentially lock the entire cluster otherwise (and it makes routing logic that much harder - it prevents designs like GTalks, which I still think was quite sane).
  325. Ge0rG moparisthebest: or consume messages that go into offline storage otherwise... :P
  326. Ge0rG Kev: does it really require a global lock?
  327. SamWhited "Some people want to identify a client by its resource" isn't actually a use case, so I still think we should ignore it. The resourcepart isn't for humans, if they're trying to force it to be something for humans then they're using the wrong tool.
  328. SamWhited s/use case/requirement/
  329. moparisthebest how else could you tell if the same was simultaneously logging in on 2 different servers in the cluster Ge0rG ?
  330. Ge0rG Kev: I mean: it surely makes it easier, yes. But is it a hard requirement?
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  332. Ge0rG don't you end up with a central client<->clusternode lookup table anyway?
  333. Zash If the resource always contains the cluster id?
  334. Zash no
  335. Zash cluster node id* even
  336. Ge0rG Zash: and there will be no other reason for a global lock?
  337. Ge0rG SamWhited: server operators are humans as well.
  338. Ge0rG debugging stuff with UUIDs everywhere is... unpleasant.
  339. moparisthebest or you just use grep
  340. moparisthebest or a search/replace
  341. Ge0rG moparisthebest: often you need to trace the interaction of multiple entities with each other.
  342. Ge0rG text files and grep are not well-suited for that.
  343. moparisthebest so replace them all with yourfavoritenameA, yourfavoritenameB
  344. moparisthebest seems dumb to specify a protocol around pretty names in log files
  345. SamWhited I don't see what any of this has to do with anything; they can still "trace the interaction of multiple entities with each other" if they use something other than the resourcepart to dientify those entities.
  346. SamWhited *identify
  347. SamWhited If you want a pretty name in the log file, use the identity, or assign a pretty name and use it in your log files. Why should that be the resourcepart?
  348. Ge0rG SamWhited: yes, but having a readable identifier, like yaxim's resourcepart, actually helps.
  349. Ge0rG SamWhited: because tooling.
  350. SamWhited Ge0rG: what tooling?
  351. Ge0rG SamWhited: bad tooling.
  352. Zash Build better tooling?
  353. Ge0rG Zash: you are the developer. I'm only a sysop.
  354. SamWhited I still have no idea what you're talking about, what tooling is bad? Why would making resourceparts random break it?
  355. SamWhited s/random/server defined/
  356. moparisthebest if you are a sysop that can't use grep or sed you shouldn't be a sysop
  357. Ge0rG moparisthebest: you are right. I should step down immediately.
  358. SamWhited I'm all for improving tooling to make things easier than grepping for UUIDs, I just don't understand why a client specified string in a resourcepart (which adds a lot of complexity) is the only possible solution to that.
  359. zinid You will end up with global lookup table anyway, because other parts of xmpp suck in this regard
  360. Ge0rG SamWhited: it's not the only one. But in a situation where our sysop tooling consists of grep and sed, it is helpful to know the approximate version of clients from things that are actually in the log.
  361. SamWhited Ge0rG: Why couldn't you say, add the client identity to log lines, or assign a readable ID to clients when they log in and use that in log lines?
  362. Ge0rG SamWhited: and I don't buy that we have to break it for no other reason than a potential cloud-scale improvement
  363. Ge0rG SamWhited: because the server I'm using doesn't log client identity on stanzas that are sent via s2s, among other reasons
  364. Ge0rG SamWhited: if we follow that line, we'd have to add the client identity, s2s connection identity and module to each log line. I'd love to have that.
  365. Ge0rG so far I get only one of those three.
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  367. Ge0rG SamWhited: but most log lines contain the user JID, which happens to contain a resource part.
  368. SamWhited You have to change the server either way (to support new resourceparts or to include more information in its logs), it seems to me that doing the one that doesn't have drawbacks as far as the protocol is concerned makes more sense.
  369. Ge0rG I never claimed this is a strong argument.
  370. Ge0rG But probably stronger than for keeping GC1.0 ;)
  371. Ge0rG zinid: can you elaborate where you also need a cluster-wide lock when a client connects?
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  373. zinid Nowhere, global locks suck in practice
  374. zinid In my practice
  375. Ge0rG zinid: what about the global lookup table?
  376. zinid Well, you cannot get rid of it
  377. Ge0rG zinid: that's what you wrote. What is the reason that you need it?
  378. zinid To wrote to bare jid
  379. zinid Route
  380. Ge0rG zinid: can't you just send to all cluster nodes?
  381. Ge0rG send all messages
  382. zinid Ge0rG: this doesn't scale, I also think you need sometimes to know all connected resources and if you don't have global tab you can only poll all nodes
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  384. Ge0rG zinid: thanks.
  385. zinid Also, ejabberd has lots of global tables, maintaining yet another one is no big deal
  386. Flow > I really hate the "<client-unique-id>/<server-generated-id>" idea, but I seem to be a minority here. Do we really have to use '/' as delimiter?
  387. SamWhited Please let's not change this into bike shedding about the delimiter.
  388. Flow And what Ge0rG said. Having a client provided resourcepart is essential for debugging, grep does not help here
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  390. SamWhited Flow: I still never got a clear answer, why is it essential for debugging? Why not use something else as an identifier (something that doesn't leak into the protocol)
  391. jonasw Ge0rG, re connecting at the same time same client-unique-id: what about a non-XEP-0198 reconnect with lingering TCP session?
  392. Flow Please do not try to kill discussion with "please don't do bike shedding"
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  394. Flow SamWhited: Because it helps when looking at an XMPP trace
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  396. Flow Especially when there are more then two entities involved
  397. SamWhited Flow: Okay, that's a different use case, how does it help?
  398. jonasw SamWhited, that’s not a different use-case
  399. jonasw not really
  400. SamWhited different from the logs one earlier, I mean
  401. jonasw note that we’re not necessarily talking about debugging a c2s connection onyl, but also s2s connections involved.
  402. jonasw not really
  403. jonasw note that the server isn’t necessarily in the position to add information like client ID to s2s stanzas
  404. jonasw note that the server isn’t necessarily in the position to add information like client xep-30 identity to s2s stanzas
  405. jonasw because they might not have that, e.g. if the stanza is inbound
  406. SamWhited Right, that's why it's different from normal logs
  407. jonasw that’s the kind of logs (stanzas going over s2s being logged) Ge0rG is talking about, I think
  408. SamWhited ah, okay, sorry, then yes, adding a server generated tag may not be an option.
  409. jonasw especially if only the stanza "header" (stanza type + attributes) is logged
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  411. Ge0rG is out for now. BBL
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