XSF Discussion - 2017-10-15

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00:06:24 pep. jonasw, I think it's *"Trainer\*Innen"* :P
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00:06:44 pep. (Hopefully your client doesn't already convert what I just wrote)
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00:10:57 pep. This "I want to change XHTML-IM" fashion is going really quick and I don't like that
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00:12:36 pep. I'm really curious as to what is going to come out of that new markdown-y spec. But I don't expect much
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00:20:47 Zash pep.: People will run a random markdown js lib over stuff, and there'll be a high chance that they pick one that defaults to passing html trough and then we're back at square 1
00:21:05 pep. Certainly
00:21:11 pep. /popcorn
00:21:31 pep. And we would have lost a few weeks for nothing
00:21:47 pep. Weeks of talking, months of incompatibilities, yeras of ranting
00:21:57 pep. Weeks of talking, months of incompatibilities, years of ranting
00:22:16 pep. Weeks of talking, months of ranting, years of incompatibilities
00:22:29 pep. Or are we ever really done ranting
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00:38:47 Zash pep.: When we die
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01:46:28 moparisthebest Just for Zash I'll write a bot with a dead mans switch to rant in here after I die
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10:12:26 Flow Zash: I'm not sure if that most "markup to HTML" converter libs would pass html trough, but I could be wrong. On the other hand: The whole stackexchange network, and things like discourse, are facing the same situation, and I've never heard that either of them was vulnerable to malicious HTML injection
10:14:03 Zash Flow: Pick the first markdown library you can find and try?
10:15:13 Flow Zash: Is that challenging me to do a evaluation of the situation or so that I see the very first lib I pick failing? ;)
10:15:14 Zash Since the original implementation does html passthough, I suspect it to be highly likely that it be the default.
10:15:50 Flow Ok, but then what do all the sites displaying HTML generated from CommonMark do?
10:15:56 Zash Even pandoc, the glorious saviour of all markup, defaults to html right through
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10:16:22 Flow Is it probably more a matter of unsafe defaults?
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10:17:57 Zash Defaults matter.
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10:19:45 Flow Course
10:20:41 Flow https://github.com/commonmark/cmark#security
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10:21:10 Flow by default we will do the unsafe thing because convenience
10:21:25 pep. Yay
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10:25:34 Zash If we could just invent some sufficiently complicated to get wrong XML format...
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10:33:51 Flow dwd: does xep388 <failure/> have a way to tell the client to try it with a different SASL mech again? Or do we even have that in the standard SASL profile? asking because of ISR
10:37:10 dwd Flow, ISR has - hopefully - nothing to do with that. Either you're authenticated or not, and if you're authenticated ISR will either succeed or not.
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10:42:30 Flow dwd: whut? the idea has always been that ISR is used to authenticate the resumption
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10:43:09 dwd Flow, But also, no. I'm not sure what would trigger that. The user exists but authentication failed? That case is normally treated equally to the user not existing for security reasons.
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10:44:02 Flow dwd: caused by the service, for some reason, "forgetting" the isr token, e.g. because of a restart
10:44:31 Flow i.e. a fallback to "full" SASL auth, instead of lightweight ISR auth
10:44:35 dwd Flow, So you're advocating a user enumeration attack? :-)
10:44:51 dwd ISR is not, and must not be, authentication. We went through this I don't know how many times.
10:44:52 Zash Does the token contain the username?
10:45:47 Flow dwd: It's authenticating the stream resumption, I don't know how many times we went through this
10:46:26 Flow Zash, no
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10:48:39 dwd Flow, ISR is just '198 resumption but as a '388 extension, right? The authentication happens within a normal SASL mechanism. You've proposed HT-* for this purpose, but one could use anything.
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10:49:20 dwd Flow, So ISR+SCRAM is valid (just more round-trips). But also ISR+EXTERNAL, which is entirely reasonable.
10:50:03 Flow sure, but ISR alone is also an option
10:50:44 dwd No, it isn't. I'm very sure we had this argument before. If you make ISR an authentication mechanism in its own right it should not be conducted within the XSF.
10:50:46 Flow also, I don't see how one could do ISR + another SASL mech, after xep388 moved away from multi SASL mechs to 'tasks'
10:51:13 dwd Well, because ISR isn't a SASL mech to begin with.
10:51:33 Flow but SASL-HT is
10:51:52 Flow and ISR is based on it
10:52:04 dwd Sure. But HT-* is *just* a SASL mechanism that you *could* use with ISR, surely?
10:52:13 Flow so it's SASL-HT+SCRAM what you are suggesting
10:52:18 Flow dwd: no
10:52:26 dwd Well, then, the design is wrong.
10:52:40 Flow I don't think so, but please elaborate
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10:55:45 dwd Flow, If you can't use resume a session when authenticating using, say, EXTERNAL, the design is clearly wrong.
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10:57:11 dwd Since EXTERNAL is relying on (for example) a TLS certificate or session resumption, and HT-* is weaker, then by *allowing* HT-* you're weakening security.
10:57:12 Flow well that was possible until you switched xep388 from chained SASL mechs to tasks
10:57:25 dwd No, that's rubbish.
10:58:11 Flow I'd say tha just HT-* is sufficently secure for some deployments, but if you want to use HT-* with a strong mech, then it should be possible to do this
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10:58:54 dwd That does not make sense. HT-* *is* a SASL mechanism.
10:59:20 dwd So why would you need to use it *with* anything else?
10:59:43 Flow The initial idea of our SASL2 was to make it possible to chain multiple SASL mechs
10:59:59 dwd No it wasn't. I know this because the initial idea was mine.
11:00:38 Flow maybe your idea was different, but the first versions of SASL2 did make it possible to chain SASL mechs
11:01:00 dwd The idea was to have an extensible SASL profile that could have secondary authentication includedm like 2FA. I thought (wrongly) these oculd be modelled as SASL mechanisms.
11:02:38 Flow and I still think they should be
11:02:53 Flow but that's mostly unrelaeted to this discussion I think
11:03:02 dwd Well, I tried it, and they can't.
11:03:15 Flow well maybe a sample of one is not enough
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11:04:54 Flow but back to the topic: ISR is now based on SASL HT-*, and if xep388 doesn't allow chained SASL mechs (maybe additional to tasks), then it's ISR with HT-*, or standard SM resumption without SASL HT-*
11:05:31 dwd Well, that's rather my point - no it isn't. There's no reason why ISR needs to be tied to HT-*.
11:06:27 Flow the only other mechanism suitable is probably EXTERNAL
11:06:50 Flow I don't see the point in ISR + SCRAM
11:07:21 Flow becasue then you could do simply standard SM resumption and SCRAM
11:07:38 dwd Sure. But ISR+SCRAM will be substantially fewer round-trips.
11:07:54 dwd Just one more, actually, than ISR+HT-*.
11:08:39 Flow and I doubt if ISR+HT-* is substantially weaker then ISR+EXTERNAL
11:08:54 Flow or any other mech
11:09:10 dwd Flow, You're deluded if you think that's the case.
11:09:40 Flow If the lifetime of the hashed token is limited?
11:10:10 dwd HT-* is, at its core, just a hash of a plaintext token held on the server in the clear. That immediately means an attacker can obtain that token and use it, potentially.
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11:11:12 dwd That's not a bad thing, because we can mitigate that with limited lifetime etc. But to think it offers the same level of security as a client certificate is really not right at all.
11:11:14 Flow I think everything is off as soon as an attacker is able to obtain things from the service
11:11:26 Zash dwd: an attacker with access to server internals?
11:11:59 Flow of course, you could argue that an attacker possibly has only access to some server internals and so
11:12:10 dwd Zash, an attacker with access to the database, probably. Typical breach. And yes, you could handwave over keeping the tokens out of persistent storage etc.
11:12:36 Flow I hope that no one stores the HT-* in a database, should be small enough to hold it in memory
11:12:47 jonasw clustering?
11:12:50 Flow and probably something I should write into the I-D
11:12:55 jonasw somebody will do that
11:13:16 Flow jonasw, clustering doesn't automatically mean that you have to store the token in a db
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11:13:48 Flow but of course, somebody will do something unreasonable
11:13:48 jonasw sure, but it may be the convenient choice
11:14:10 Flow damn you, convenience
11:14:26 dwd Flow, But anyway, the point is that if ISR works with *any* SASL mechanism in principle, then if HT-* is a problem we just use something else.
11:14:57 Flow dwd, sorry didn't get the last part
11:16:21 Flow If i'm not mistaken nothing in the current ISR ProtoXEP currently limits the mech to HT-*
11:16:42 dwd Well, we need to fix that then.
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11:16:53 Flow but of course, it's written with HT-* in mind
11:17:42 Flow dwd, fix what?
11:18:09 Flow I'm currently more worried how much more complex the SASL2-ISR combination is, compared to my initial ISR ProtoXEP…
11:18:30 jonasw how many round-trips does ISR save if you use any other SASL mechanism?
11:18:35 Flow Altough I believe in Holger to implement any complex beast in ejabberd :)
11:18:41 jonasw i.e. what’s the difference to just resuming in that case?
11:20:12 Flow jonasw, IIRC 1 round-trip
11:20:18 Flow but I haven't counted recently
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11:48:15 Flow dwd, I think we talked past each other, for most of the time. Which made us didn't talk about what should happen if HT-* failes because of an experied token (my initial question). In that sense, it is probably different than most SASL mechs, in the sense that you could fallback to another SASL mech
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12:05:59 Flow prably the simplest approach would be "client knows that he just did a HT-* auth that failed, so let's retry (possible on a new connection) e.g. SCRAM"
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12:13:54 Kev FWIW, I think dwd's right about just about everything above.
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12:23:09 Flow sure, was mostly a misunderstanding what ISR+SASL-MECH means. He was talking about using ISR with SASL-MECH, and I was talking about using ISR with SASL HT-* and SASL-MECH chained
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19:58:45 pep. hmm, I was wondering about Consistent Color Generation. I remember we were talking about XHTML-IM styles/colors the other day, I suppose it's the same issue here? edhelas
19:58:53 pep. (i.e., doesn't fit in the color theme)
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20:51:37 edhelas is there a place where I can find a proper way to detect if a JID is valid or not ?
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20:53:50 mathieui the RFC? :p
20:54:29 pep. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7564
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20:54:42 pep. I don't know of tools doing that
20:54:46 edhelas sure, but is there some nice PRECIS/regex thing that I can reuse ?
20:55:02 pep. I don't think it's a one regex job :x
20:55:35 pep. But I've never ever read it. Maybe implementations have examples
20:55:41 pep. But I've neven ever read it. Maybe implementations have examples
20:55:47 edhelas https://github.com/movim/movim/issues/492 got that, don't know how to fix it
20:55:53 pep. But I've never even read it. Maybe implementations have examples
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20:56:27 pep. I think I linked a lib doing PRECIS in php the other day
20:57:00 pep. https://github.com/tom--/precis I don't know how compliant that is though
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22:48:32 lskdjf edhelas, why would a client need to validate jids (perfectly)? the client would only need to forward everything to the server and let the validation be done there. There is the point that it might be convinient to show a user that what they are doing definitly won't work, but that check mainly should not have false negatives - false positives aren't so bad because the server will detect them. so in practice .+@.+ should work fine...
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23:17:58 SamWhited edhelas: I've got a validator you can use somewhere if you still need one. I'll seems it your way when I'm next at my desk.
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