XSF Discussion - 2017-10-16

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05:01:08 zinid RFCs like 7564 make me cry
05:01:30 zinid instead of providing a simple pseudo-code there are 40 pages of stupid definitions
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05:16:53 fippo feel free to submit a draft doing so.
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05:43:54 edhelas lskdjf no, please no, it's like saying that you don't need proper validation in HTML/JS because the database can handle that
05:44:28 edhelas SamWhited that would be nice yes :)
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05:48:47 jonasw pep., XEP-0392 offers a way to adapt the colors to a given background.
05:48:53 jonasw or overall theme tint
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06:25:02 Syndace Is "Remko" here, the dude that wrote a mail about OMEMO key agreement recently?
06:25:12 jonasw Syndace, sometimes
06:25:18 jonasw yesterday or on saturday he was
06:25:30 jonasw why are you asking?
06:26:29 Syndace I read a lot about OMEMO recently and I want to discuss his question a little while not spamming the mailing list with probably unqualified comments :D
06:26:59 Syndace is his nick in here remko aswell?
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06:28:43 jonasw yupp
06:28:57 jonasw Syndace, there’s always the option of replying only to him
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07:58:33 pep. jonasw: re color generation, nice
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08:07:56 Syndace jonasw, I decided to risk it and answered the list ^^
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09:03:53 Flow Syndace, good question you posted :)
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14:32:55 SamWhited edhelas: the little tool I use isn't actually on this machine, but here's a quick one that just checks if the first argument is a valid JID: https://gist.github.com/SamWhited/faaa24d72e06903122152a5a17984fe7
14:35:52 SamWhited Note that by default that will be using the newer version of PRECIS from RFC 8264 and Unicode 10, but there shouldn't be any major differences.
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18:57:26 pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bmh.html Is that Flow? What happens if a client doesn't announce any supported markup? will the other client send non-formatted plaintext? Or the same but untagged?
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19:03:25 jonasw MattJ, lovetox is having issues joining the channel, possibly the stalled s2s bug. he’s in jdev. Care to debug?
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19:48:56 Flow pep.,: what do you think would be best?
19:49:44 pep. Is there a need for the XEP?
19:50:07 Flow pep I obviously think so, as otherwhise I wouldn't have go through the effort writting it
19:50:30 pep. Well the example I showed above kind of defeats the point
19:50:49 Flow pep., your question?
19:50:53 pep. yes
19:51:21 Flow pep., I don't see how it defates the point
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19:51:42 pep. The markup is going to make it _as is_ to the other side in any case
19:51:45 Zash With MAM, carbons and whatever, you have no way of knowing if all the clients that receive it supports it.
19:52:27 Flow Ok, so maybe it's time to provide some motivation for BMH
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19:52:49 Flow I was going to wait until the offical editor annoucement, but it looks like people get into the wrong direction about what it's about
19:52:53 Zash It would let those who understand it know for sure that it is what the sender intended.
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19:53:07 Flow Zash, that!
19:53:25 pep. And why not xhtml-im?
19:53:39 pep. You're assuming it's already out, right?
19:53:42 Flow So BMH does not try to be a successor of XHTML-IM
19:53:47 Flow It's not even meant as intermediate solution
19:54:08 Flow The case for BMH is bridges which take Markup formated text, and send it via XMPP to an XMPP client
19:54:44 Flow For example a Stackoverflow bot, which sends you an question and a answer
19:54:48 Flow Or a discourse interface
19:54:51 Zash Thing could in theory have serverside translation into XHTML-IM or XEP-future-markup-thing
19:55:10 Flow Or a Bot which sends you status information with headings and sections and stuff
19:55:15 pep. well the gateway/bridge would know markups the other side sends, and could translate it into XHTML-IM
19:55:24 pep. I'm not sure more is needed
19:55:30 Flow If you client doesn't know the markup language, fine, it will still display the text more or less nicely
19:56:00 Flow If it does understand the markup hinted markup language, it can throw it into a converter and show it in a richful way
19:56:18 Zash So it's equivalent to the Content-Type header in email
19:56:22 Flow pep., Not every client supports XHTML-IM
19:56:23 Zash Which is fine.
19:56:34 pep. Flow, the more reasons to implement it
19:56:41 pep. Not every client supports $MARKUP
19:56:53 Zash Flow: pep.s point of the discovery section being fairly pointless stands tho
19:57:48 Zash OTOH it is mandatory in XEPs
19:57:49 Flow Zash, yep, the discovery was just a goodie I wanted to take along
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20:02:08 pep. I'm still not sure I see the point. This can be totally covered with xhtml-im
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20:22:02 pep. Flow, please do add some more details on the XEP so we can comment on it before it's accepted
20:22:05 pep. :)
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20:26:36 Flow pep: I've responded on the editor announcement
20:27:04 Flow Also the latest snapshot of the xep may contains more backstory: http://geekplace.eu/xeps/xep-bmh/xep-bmh.html
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20:27:37 Flow Meh, a 2 week last call for so important cornerstones like MAM feels a little bit to short
20:28:33 pep. thanks
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20:36:12 pep. I'd like to make motivation the first requirement of a protoXEP :x
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20:50:31 Zash Isn't that usually supposed to be covered in the first section?
20:50:48 pep. Well apparently not enough
20:50:49 Zash Like, a problem statement or somesuch
20:52:49 pep. "Why is this needed", "Are there existing XEPs trying to solve the same issue or similar/related ones", "How does that compare to these XEPs", etc.
20:53:26 Flow please direct blame to the lazy me :)
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20:54:58 pep. Flow, I can see a point for your XEP here, just that it doesn't really come at a good time, with the latest events around XHTML-IM and people trying to kill it
20:56:59 pep. Also I fear people are going to abuse it
20:57:06 pep. And give up on xhtml-im for this
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22:51:45 Zash Was there an easy way to get schemas out of XEPs?
22:53:53 waqas Zash: Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.
22:56:59 waqas Zash: You can probably use one of the xpath CLI tools to grab this: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/blob/master/xep-0016.xml#L856
22:57:40 waqas No idea if this stuff is consistent across XEPs
22:58:14 Zash In this specific instance I'm interested in getting schemas out of XEP60
22:58:49 Zash And I seem to have repressed^W forgotten how XPath works
22:59:22 waqas https://github.com/xsf/xeps/blob/master/xep-0060.xml#L6522
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22:59:56 waqas Copy paste, and split on the CDATA sections
23:01:46 waqas Oh, it uses <xs:import /> to reference an external 'http://xmpp.org/schemas/x-data.xsd' too
23:02:43 Zash Hm, I have this strange memory of fighting xpath or xml search tools in order to get them to spit out bare text, and giving up beacuse it's impossible.
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23:30:20 Zash Why is {pubsub#errors}unsupported a MUST?
23:31:38 Zash Why does the implementation need to know all the things it doesn't do?
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23:33:33 Zash And isn't this the job of disco#info?
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