XSF Discussion - 2017-10-17

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07:16:19 Flow hmm, I didn't receive pep.'s mail to standards@
07:16:44 Flow ahh, dwd points out it's a DMARC issue
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07:27:02 jonasw the list needs reconfiguring then
07:27:54 jonasw mailman can re-write DMARC-affected emails to let them pass filters downstream, at the cost of usability
07:28:10 pep. Flow: ah right it's probably me
07:28:17 pep. I need to fix it
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07:35:16 dwd jonasw, No, it's doing exactly what it should. DMARC is broken, that's all.
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07:37:03 pep. My dmarc settings are too strict
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07:37:27 pep. Dkim is borken and I need to fix it
07:37:39 dwd DMARC is just broken.
07:37:48 pep. Why?
07:38:17 dwd Created by the operators of Google Groups, Yahoo Groups, Facebook, etc... They had no interest in making mailing lists work, it didn't fit their business model.
07:38:31 dwd And they did it outside the IETF and then forced it on everyone as a fait accompli.
07:38:51 dwd is using a French phrase in celebration of being in France. I think.
07:39:20 Zash Wasn't DKIM a Yahoo thing too?
07:39:22 pep. Dmarc is not the spec issue here, it's just a reporting standard
07:39:42 pep. Well + other niceties
07:39:52 Ge0rG gabs popcorn
07:40:15 Zash pep.: Every time I read the DMARC spec it tells me that DKIM and SPF are both mandatory to deploy.
07:40:27 pep. the issue*
07:40:39 pep. Zash: no they're not
07:40:53 pep. But yes you should probably
07:40:57 Zash I should not
07:41:02 Zash I tried
07:41:09 pep. If you want dmarc to be useful
07:41:17 Zash Mailing lists all borked
07:41:19 Kev DMARC can be useful? :p
07:41:39 pep. MLs are borked indeed :/
07:42:01 Zash pep.: That's not how blame works on the internet!
07:42:05 pep. But I would say it's more of a dkim issue
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07:43:18 pep. You require so much energy from me at not even 9am.. Still in the bed
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07:43:56 Zash While on the topic of email. dwd, your email where you told pep. about the dmarc issue, the text version is bad.
07:44:16 dwd Quite possibly. Dodgy android gmail client.
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07:44:38 Zash It's pretty much identical to the email replied to
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07:45:44 Zash Took me forever to figure out that the text was quoted, because the only sign of that was a <div> in the html version.
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07:46:54 dwd I really need to switch to Fastmail or something. Partly inertia (I'd need to switch domain) and partly cost.
07:47:30 Ge0rG is selfhosting email. Not as bad as some people claim.
07:49:41 Zash Apparently the trick to self-hosting is getting a gmail account.
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07:51:09 pep. I need to mitigate the spam problem a bit, that's the most annoying
07:51:29 pep. Someday I'll install a spam filter
07:52:36 Ge0rG the XMPP spam problem?
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07:58:32 pep. Mail
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07:59:12 jonasw spamassassin + imapsieve to train it
07:59:15 jonasw but ECHAN
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07:59:47 Zash ENOMEM
07:59:52 zinid I personally don't want to mess with spam filters so I chose to use gmail
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08:00:44 pep. jonasw: I already have sieve yep, I just need to take time for spamassassin
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09:23:50 Wiktor DMARC has a FAQ entry for mailing lists ( https://dmarc.org/wiki/FAQ#I_operate_a_mailing_list_and_I_want_to_interoperate_with_DMARC.2C_what_should_I_do.3F ) one of suggestions is just to use mailing list in the From header and move sender to Reply-To header, some mailing lists have options like that (e.g. https://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC )
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10:18:10 jonasw Wiktor, yes, it sucks
10:21:09 Wiktor jonasw: I don't know, I'm not using Mailman but thanks for info!
10:21:56 jonasw you can do that with mailman, but since it mangles the From it makes lists harder to read
10:22:25 Zash Aren't you supposed to set Sender?
10:23:05 jonasw depends, I think
10:23:16 jonasw some operate on the sender, some on From, some on SMTP-Mail-From
10:24:01 Wiktor DMARC only cares about From, if you mangle that it's DMARC-OK :)
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17:39:48 goffi https://blog.agayon.be/sat_jp.html ==> nice blog post about SàT CLI frontend, if anywone want's do have an idea of its abilities.
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17:56:16 Zash Mmmm, what's this https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-curdle-cms-eddsa-signatures-08
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20:20:18 dwd Wiktor, Please read RFC 5322. From is the author. DMARC is in the wrong here.
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20:21:54 Zash -rfc 5322
20:21:54 Bunneh Zash: Internet Message Format. P. Resnick, Ed.. October 2008. (Updated by RFC6854) (Status: DRAFT STANDARD) https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322
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20:50:18 pep. dwd, I see your point (re DMARC)
20:50:35 pep. DKIM is not helping though is it?
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20:51:27 pep. (this morning's discussion, and your remark to Wiktor)
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21:05:57 Wiktor Well the issue is mailing list modifying email content or/and headers, appending footers, adding mailing list id to subject. If the email was not modified it'd pass DKIM checks and DMARC would be happy. Then you can have your From just fine :)
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