XSF Discussion - 2017-10-18

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  91. jonasw Wiktor, sure, but that’s what mailing lists do.
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  94. Wiktor jonasw: yes, but unfortunately sending emails that claim were authored by you but really aren't is also what spammers do. Even for my little domain I get multiple attempts every single day (thanks dmarcanalyzer.com)
  95. Zash Do they?
  96. Zash ITYM scammers
  97. Ge0rG spammers as well
  98. jonasw Wiktor, I’m not saying DMARC/DKIM isn’t a good tool for transactional providers like paypal or amazon or so
  99. jonasw but it shouldn’t be applied to private email.
  100. Zash SPF is good enough for the rest of us, or something
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  104. Wiktor Zash: are you sure SPF is not just placebo? Maybe just remove it altogether...
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  106. Wiktor Did you designate mailing list as allowed sender in you SPF record?
  107. Zash No, because I'm not the one sending those, the mailing list is.
  108. jonasw (spamassassin agrees)
  109. Wiktor Look at fail and forwarding here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Policy_Framework
  110. jonasw sure, but a mailinglist isn’t forwarding
  111. Wiktor Fail is similar to dmarc reject but doesn't work in practice as far as I know
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  113. Zash Why aren't mailing lists just designed to forward all posts as attachments?
  114. Zash Think Carbons
  115. jonasw Zash, probably because UI for those is bad
  116. Zash Let's make MUCarbons!
  117. Ge0rG We could use them to populate MUC history on 1:1 upgrades!
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  119. jonasw mmm Ge0rG, a pity you reported those vulnerabilities. that could’ve been useful now!
  120. Zash Eg
  121. Wiktor Zash: thats one of solutions to dmarc problem actually, mentioned in the FAQ I linked previously
  122. jonasw (one of those solutions which break UX)
  123. Wiktor Sorry I'm not mobile can't look it up now
  124. Ge0rG jonasw: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-December/031750.html
  125. jonasw heh
  126. Ge0rG pep., Zash: maybe interesting for you as well ^
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  152. pep. Ge0rG, thanks
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  165. stefandxm Where is the bigger list of xmpp libraries nowadays?
  166. stefandxm the one on xmpp.org is very short
  167. stefandxm (and does not list license)
  168. mathieui stefandxm, on the github of the xmpp website, in the json source files
  169. stefandxm so it is not deployed?
  170. mathieui the xmpp.org list only lists the ones maintained enough that the maintainers care to update the xmpp.org file once a year
  171. mathieui it is
  172. stefandxm i am talking about the old list that had tones of more clients
  173. stefandxm j-dev list i guess
  174. jonasw stefandxm, those clients didn’t bother to tell us they still exist
  175. jonasw or they don’t know
  176. stefandxm the ones you knew exist lol
  177. jonasw if you’re missing any specifically, please point them at https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/
  178. mathieui jonasw, plz accept my pull request tho :p
  179. jonasw mathieui, I can’t
  180. mathieui damn
  181. jonasw I don’t have the power
  182. jonasw but we should ping Guus now that he’s back from the GSoC meetup
  183. stefandxm ok so its no more then
  184. stefandxm now the list is mostly commercial libraries
  185. stefandxm if thats what xmpp.org wants then this is fine i guess
  186. jonasw stefandxm, which do you miss?
  187. mathieui stefandxm, this is not what xmpp.org wants
  188. stefandxm i will have to compile my own list :)
  189. mathieui xmpp.org aims to have relevant software listings
  190. stefandxm but now it doesnt
  191. jonasw stefandxm, instead of compiling your own list, notify the projects. apparently a post to jdev@ is not enough. so please let them know about https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/
  192. stefandxm but it had before
  193. Ge0rG stefandxm: the problem with clients was that the official list contained software that's unmaintained for years or even decades, leading to user frustration
  194. mathieui and broken libraries untouched since 2005 are not part of what I would call a relevant list
  195. stefandxm georg, and now you have no list
  196. stefandxm programmers are not stupid
  197. jonasw any list which doesn’t include pidgin is a good list.
  198. stefandxm they can easily see when a library was updated
  199. jonasw stefandxm, libraries, maybe, clients, not so much
  200. mathieui although, I agree on the lack of a license field
  201. stefandxm anyhow. i understand i cannot rely on xmpp.org to do this because you dont care about the real life scenario :)
  202. jonasw stefandxm, you still didn’t tell me which ones you miss.
  203. stefandxm lets just say there are no C libraries
  204. Ge0rG stefandxm: if programmers are not stupid, they probably can bother enough to send a PR once a year.
  205. stefandxm no free c# libraries
  206. jonasw stefandxm, that’s not very spicific
  207. jonasw stefandxm, that’s not very specific
  208. stefandxm and the most commonly used js library is not listed
  209. Kev Thankfully, programmers aren't stupid, so they can easily view the full list in the source, irrespective of whether they've been abandoned.
  210. jonasw off the top of my head I wouldn’t know which of the four libstrophe-forks is still recent or maintained
  211. stefandxm libstrophe is not listed either
  212. stefandxm and i hate libstrophe
  213. jonasw I know
  214. stefandxm still it can be patched
  215. stefandxm to be decent
  216. stefandxm anyhow. i am not arguing about what library is good or not
  217. stefandxm but now the list is simply not usefull for beginners to xmpp
  218. stefandxm too bad. the old one was :)
  219. Ge0rG stefandxm: so you would say an outdated unmaintained list of broken libraries is more useful than a short list of maintained ones?
  220. mathieui stefandxm, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/libraries.json you still have the full list if you look for it
  221. stefandxm georg, yes.
  222. stefandxm mathieui, i cannot send a list to a github json file in a tutorial to xmpp
  223. stefandxm i will just have to make my own list. wich will be even less maintained
  224. jonasw stefandxm, in the time you complained here, you could’ve given a list of things you miss and we can contact the projects.
  225. Kev Ah. A special type of programmer who's not stupid and can easily sift through libraries to tell the quality of them, but is unable to read a json list. I know the type.
  226. jonasw but you "obviously" don’t care about a good central listing either if you don’t :-)
  227. stefandxm i do, but it wont work with the new "rules"
  228. jonasw Kev, I know right? JSON is annoying to read.
  229. stefandxm i have made two libraries myself and i dont want to inform xsf about it every year
  230. jonasw xpath -e '...' :-)
  231. stefandxm so i doubt many other libraries i know about will either
  232. mathieui Kev, a json list is quite unpleasant though, I can agree on that
  233. jonasw stefandxm, your choice
  234. Kev mathieui: Of course, it should be XML. Everyone would agree on that ;)
  235. Ge0rG Kev: is that the same type of developer who can securely parse markdown, but not XHTML-IM?
  236. mathieui :)
  237. stefandxm if you make stuff a job only proffesionals will do it
  238. stefandxm since i make free clients for no money i dont want to spend money on talking to xsf about it
  239. stefandxm its quite simple
  240. stefandxm and i guess most people think the same, since the list is so small now
  241. Ge0rG stefandxm: I must have forgotten the part about paying the XSF to accept PRs in my announcement.
  242. Guus someone mentioned me?
  243. stefandxm georg, who said anything about paying?
  244. mathieui "spend money"
  245. stefandxm ah right lol
  246. stefandxm time of course
  247. Ge0rG has left
  248. stefandxm money is time tho ;-)
  249. jonasw Guus, yeah, there are software listing PRs pending
  250. jonasw I don’t have access to the big merge button
  251. mathieui stefandxm, it’s swapping the value of 1 byte in a json file once a year, and clicking a link
  252. stefandxm mathieui, doesnt matter
  253. Ge0rG stefandxm: so your argument is: it is better for dozens of developers to spend hours on evaluating XMPP libraries than on you to invest 10 minutes into marketing your library?
  254. stefandxm for anyone in here it makes sense. for everyone not even knowing about this channel it does not make sense
  255. Guus jonasw: want to have that power?
  256. stefandxm most xmpp develoeprs dont use xmpp.org
  257. jonasw Guus, dare to give it to me? :)
  258. Guus (I'll happily merge myself, but I'd like others to be able)
  259. Guus the gsoc trip kinda threw off any planning that I had :)
  260. jonasw Guus, I’m willing to handle those PRs
  261. mathieui stefandxm, but then they don’t care about it then
  262. mathieui also, you dongt even have to be the author to submit a library
  263. mathieui also, you don’t even have to be the author to submit a library
  264. stefandxm i think what made xmpp big was the compatibility with many different libraries and people being able to start easily. now xmpp.org has taken responsibility to list clients (used by Wikipedia) but at the same time it removes known libraries
  265. Ge0rG stefandxm: I admit that the reduction of libraries is a side effect of my push to only have relevant _clients_ listed. But still, your arguments are getting less and less convincing.
  266. stefandxm and why would al ibrary have to be updated more often than the protocol
  267. stefandxm makes no sense either
  268. jonasw nobody says it should be updated
  269. jonasw it should be maintained
  270. jonasw which are two different things
  271. mathieui stefandxm, because software is never finished
  272. stefandxm open source libraries doesnt get old or insecure because they are not being updated
  273. stefandxm mathieui, so?
  274. Ge0rG stefandxm: a good library needs to implement all the XEPs with a useful API. There have been many new XEPs in the last year.
  275. stefandxm LOL
  276. stefandxm all xeps!!
  277. stefandxm why even have XEPs then
  278. Guus jonasw: try now.
  279. stefandxm lets just make XMPP a full blown monolithic beast!
  280. stefandxm ok, i will stop talking about this now. this only makes me sad
  281. Ge0rG stefandxm: you sound like Evgeny now.
  282. Kev I'm sorry, this channel has temporarily exceeded its quota of hyperbole. Please try again later.
  283. mathieui stefandxm, the "update date" stuff is essentially saying "yes, that library is still usable and someone, somewhere, cares enough about it to make a pull request"
  284. jonasw Guus, boom
  285. jonasw nice :)
  286. stefandxm mathieui, make it two pages then
  287. stefandxm one with updated info an one without
  288. stefandxm or have a parameter or what not
  289. jonasw stefandxm, PRs welcome
  290. stefandxm no i will not make PRs
  291. stefandxm the list is already there
  292. jonasw we’re also just doing this in our freetime :P
  293. Kev > the list is already there Great, we're done.
  294. stefandxm thats my point
  295. stefandxm deploy it
  296. stefandxm as-is
  297. jonasw uh, we could link to the JSON file :-)
  298. mathieui and I say that as someone who missed the original announcement and made a pull request this week, after 7 months of not being listed
  299. stefandxm now you complain you dont have time but still you want everyone else to take time to fulfill your silly procedure
  300. jonasw stefandxm, that "silly procedure" also takes our time. It’s not as if only others have to do work here.
  301. jonasw we don’t do this for fun, we really think it’s a good idea, for the reasons mentioned here already
  302. stefandxm lol
  303. Ge0rG jonasw: thanks for covering my ass in my evil plan to drive the XSF down with bureaucratic processes everywhere!
  304. jonasw Ge0rG, admit it, you’re just sick of your job and want to spin off a Jabber consulting business ;P
  305. Ge0rG Which reminds me to apply for Board, Council and iteam.
  306. jonasw you don’t need to apply for iteam, do you?
  307. mathieui you only have to ask, afaik
  308. jonasw well, and board needs to approve you etc.
  309. mathieui (and thanks jonasw for merging)
  310. jonasw np
  311. jonasw Guus, can you cancel the currently running build in favour of the most recent one? https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/
  312. jonasw it triggered one build for each PR, which is a waste of time :)
  313. Guus done
  314. Guus I'm not paying attention here, unless I'm called by name (I've got to catch up on a number of things at work)
  315. jonasw fine :)
  316. jonasw thanks
  317. Guus sure thing
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  364. zinid Ge0rG: > you sound like Evgeny now Wanna next round of compliments from me?
  365. Ge0rG zinid: any time you want :P
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  370. zinid Ge0rG: just get a life, nerd
  371. Guus http://bash.org/?23396
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  374. jonasw it’s been years since I saw a bash.org link
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  386. Ge0rG zinid: I'm sure you can do better than that!
  387. jonasw whatever, can you take that to a query please ;-)
  388. Ge0rG jonasw: no. MUC-PMs are broken.
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  410. Tobias dwd, ping council
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  433. MattJ ping board
  434. Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/376 shall be merged unless objectuons are raised.
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  441. Kev .
  442. Kev Arc is having issues with his server connecting to xmpp.org at the moment.
  443. Arc has joined
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  445. arc Hmm
  446. Arc finally
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  450. Arc I had to add muc.xmpp.org to s2s_insecure_domains
  451. arc has joined
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  453. Zash -certinfo muc.xmpp.org
  454. Bunneh Zash: muc.xmpp.org has a valid certificate issued by Let's Encrypt Authority X3
  455. Zash -expires muc.xmpp.org
  456. Bunneh Zash: muc.xmpp.org has a certificate that expires in 3 days and 7 hours
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  463. Arc nope. it was something totally stupid on my end
  464. arc has joined
  465. Arc server had a hard reset, failed to save clock on save, so the server believed it was jan 3 and thus every cert it received was invalid
  466. SamWhited Arc: is the JID sending me requests you? Did you get a new one?
  467. Ge0rG has left
  468. Arc i renewed my certs a few days ago
  469. Arc my certs should be fine. it was a server date issue.
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  472. Arc thankfully it doesnt look like i missed a board meeting since nobody else showed up
  473. Kev Matt did. But that was it.
  474. Guus Kev: please sort out tweetdeck
  475. Kev Ah yeah, that dropped off my inbox when I was ill. Let me put a todo in for tomorrow morning.
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  479. Guus Thanks
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  499. Syndace My two cents about the library/client list on xmpp.org: First of all, my respect for staying calm throughout the discussion, I got mad just passively reading it. Second, while it is not a perfect indicator for a project being maintained or not, checking for commits in the last year to guess whether a project is active does sound like an idea. At least for projects hosted on github an automatic script could check for commits in the last year and set that flag in the json file. (sorry if I bring up something that was considered before)
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  502. jonasw Syndace, actually, that hasn’t been suggested before, interesting idea
  503. jonasw the issue would be where to run such code
  504. jonasw it’d be unfortunate to run that during the website build; it would have to be somewhat automated
  505. Kev It was discussed at the summit using 'last commit'.
  506. jonasw I didn’t know that
  507. Kev But it presupposes that a) source is publicly available and b) a project with no merged commits isn't maintained.
  508. Kev I think 'author is willing to ping github once a year' is a better metric for whether a project's still cared for.
  509. Kev It's all heuristics, of course.
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  511. Syndace Kev, it is not meant as a replacement to the current pr way of doing it but as an addition to maybe grab a few projects with lazy devs/devs that don't know about the list
  512. Kev Ah. I misunderstood. That doesn't seem unreasonable :)
  513. jonasw leaves the question how would that code run automatically and periodically
  514. Kev Probably doesn't need to be run automatically.
  515. jonasw fair enough
  516. jonasw Syndace, do you happen to volunteer to code something like that up?
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  518. jonasw maybe add an optional git_url field for projects which want to link to a website but still have a proper git repository.
  519. Syndace Yeah sure :) I hope github has an api but i guess it does
  520. Wiktor Syndace: https://developer.github.com/v3/repos/commits/#list-commits-on-a-repository
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  522. Syndace ha! Thanks for the googleing. Gonna script it tomorrow. About when and how to run the script: I could just let my raspi run it once a week ^^
  523. pep. Flow, I already said that on list iirc, but "The situation BMH tries to improve is the following: I do have a bunch of data formatted using a markup language, say CommonMark, that I want to send over XMPP to an XMPP client. Because there is no converter from CommonMark to XHTML-IM(-NEXT) and since I don't want to write one [..]" This is really meh. "I don't want to write a converter so I'll write my implementation in a way that all clients have to implement one themselves"
  524. Wiktor Syndace: nothing like a good ol' cron... :)
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  528. Guus Syndace, jonasw: why automate this? Seems like more work than manually supplying/maintaining a couple of entries.
  529. jonasw Guus, automation is good, and I think it’s trivial to do
  530. Guus Meh. Don't care much either way 😃
  531. Syndace pep. I think the (important) part you might be missing is that it does not hurt if neither the server nor the client understand the format. It is cool if a client happens to understand the format but if it does not it is still a human readable text message. For XHTML-IM the Server MUST understand the format.
  532. Flow pep., The important point is that you still want to stuff CommonMark into <body/>, even if you convert to XHTML-IM
  533. Flow for maximum interoperablitiy
  534. Syndace I don't care, I could also run it manually once a month :D
  535. jonasw Syndace, I think it hurts, in fact.
  536. jonasw it encourages putting non-plaintext content in <body/>. This is a slippery slope.
  537. jonasw Flow, I strongly disagree with that.
  538. Syndace jonasw, CommonMarkup is in fact plaintext
  539. pep. I also disagree with putting that in <body/>
  540. jonasw <body/> is plaintext, it should only ever be plaintext. Markups are not plaintext, even if they are CommonMark or Markdown.
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  542. Syndace They are not plaintext? Oh..
  543. jonasw Syndace, no, it’s not. It abuses some characters in certain combinations as meta-characters to imply emphasis and other styling. That’s a markup which disguises as plaintext. It happens to be human-readable in many cases.
  544. Syndace I can see reading #### small-heading is not so much fun
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  546. pep. You skipped what jonasw just said?
  547. jonasw Syndace, they are plaintext in the sense that they only use printables, but that also applies to XML and nobody would claim XML to be "plaintext" :-)
  548. Syndace pep.: No, I get it. Even though it is plaintext it is not fun to read it as plaintext
  549. pep. k
  550. pep. We're not talking about emotions though
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  556. Flow enjoys reading CommonMark in plain text
  557. Flow but YMMV
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  559. Flow What do clients use these days to embed image-urls into a message (e.g. for stickers)?
  560. jonasw Flow, OOB
  561. jonasw (not for stickers, but http_upload)
  562. jonasw I hope that transition to SIMS happens at some point
  563. Flow jonasw, ty
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  587. jonasw Flow, ugh. sorry. (mail follows)
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  641. pep. Flow, you see my messages on the list now? :-°
  642. pep. I'll still get reports but at least I changed my DMARC policy while I figure something out (if there is anything to figure out)
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