XSF Discussion - 2017-10-20

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  40. pep. When are we going to get out of the loop :(
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  42. moparisthebest pep.: *Never* muhuhahaha
  43. pep. When are we going to get out of the loop :(
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  87. zinid Just deprecate XML, it's insecure
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  89. MattJ along with Javascript and SQL
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  91. zinid that would be great
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  94. Zash And x86
  95. Zash And neurons
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  98. jonasw Link Mauve, my issue with colors is that they are not portable at all. your choice of colors may be badly readable on my background
  99. jonasw since people tend to forget that I had to block inbound colors on my desktop client.
  100. jonasw I’m not against a color support, but we need to define a way (Ge0rG suggested to support a palette of XEP-0392 colors which applications can then adapt according to XEP-0392 to their backgrounds) which allows to play nice with themes.
  101. daniel jonasw: just set a background color as well
  102. jonasw daniel, yes, that makes things *so* much better :P
  103. daniel Xhtml is perfect. People are just using it wrong
  104. daniel It's the people. Not the protocol
  105. jonasw Link Mauve, re JSON based protocol-break: I think it can be done in a way which makes arbitrary XHTML injection much harder to let happen than with XHTML-Im.
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  107. zinid jonasw: so you think it's worth redoing everything just because the new format will possess less issues? Not everyone agrees with it, that's why this discussion is not going to stop
  108. jonasw zinid, *shrug*. I’d still be okay with the "provide an audited reference implementation for XHTML-IM solution", but I feel that won’t get past SamWhited. I’m trying to compromise here without losing what we can do today.
  109. zinid if SamWhited doesn't pass it that would mean nothing will ever happen
  110. zinid and we're back to the beginning
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  131. Ge0rG Wow, that discussion.
  132. Ge0rG It seems to be so fundamental, maybe we should question the use of XML as well...
  133. jonasw Ge0rG, you love to pour oil into fires, don’t you?
  134. Ge0rG jonasw: okay, that was a bit harsh. Let's only question session binding and message routing.
  135. jonasw Ge0rG, that sounds good.
  136. jonasw didn’t we do that already?
  137. Ge0rG jonasw: or maybe we need a different approach to the 'database synchronization" thought: XMPP 2.0 is an HTML document that's slowly loading from the server as new messages arrive.
  138. Ge0rG That way we can implement dumb clients in Electron.
  139. jonasw Ge0rG, you’re describing Comet
  140. Zash jonasw: Pouring oil? More like feeding it an optimally mixed solution of pure oxygen and aerosolized oil
  141. Ge0rG Because the server is trustworthy by default, there is no need to cover XSS
  142. jonasw Zash, :)
  143. Zash Yes, trust in the server. We're all trustworthy people making them.
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  154. Ge0rG Well, problem solved. Back to real work.
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  167. zinid Ge0rG: or course we can question the use of XML, because it's shit
  168. zinid now we need to rewrite everything?
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  170. Zash Yeah, starting over from scratch is so much fun!
  171. pep. Why dont we use http and json already
  172. Ge0rG Wait, there is a ready-made solution already. Matrix!
  173. pep. Ge0rG, I think we came to the same conclusion
  174. zinid pep.: because jabber was initially designed with flaws: there is no separation between encoding rules and data types, so we cannot simply change encoding rules
  175. zinid I'm talking about it since 2004
  176. pep. zinid: that was sarcastic
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  178. pep. If it wasn't obvious enough :)
  179. zinid pep.: right, but that would be possible if xmpp wasn't designed the way it was
  180. pep. Sure, but who would do that :x
  181. zinid matrix has exactly the same problem btw, when json is no longer modern and fancy it will be abandoned
  182. Zash Obviously
  183. Ge0rG So we need to use an established standard that won't vanish. ASN.1!
  184. Zash YES
  185. jonasw AaaaaaaaAAAAAaaaaaAAAaaaaaaaa
  186. jonasw I always get attacks of pain when I read ASN.1, and I don’t even know why.
  187. Ge0rG So recently I started reading that old "Easy introduction into the subset of ASN.1 relevant for [application]", and I gave up after twenty pages.
  188. jonasw lol
  189. Zash jonasw: Spend some time with it. It should turn into a mild itch eventually.
  190. Zash I hope you all read x509guide.txt
  191. Steve Kille ASN.1 is wonderful. MUCH easier to write specs in than XML and compact on the wire
  192. Zash Steve Kille: Which encoding rules? ;)
  193. zinid Steve Kille: the learning curve is too high, that's why they are crying :)
  194. jonasw Steve Kille, reminds me, I (with my editor hat on) would like to fix some XML issues in the MIX XEP at some point. Let me know when that’d work for you so that we don’t produce conflicts.
  195. zinid Zash: why encoding rules would boher an application programmer? You don't need to deal with them directly
  196. Steve Kille jonasw: now would be an excellent time for you to do this. I do not have MIX XEP checked out.
  197. jonasw Steve Kille, mhm, right, now won’t work for me though :-). I’ll ask you again when I’m ready (I expected a reply along the lines of "I have some update prepared which I’ll push at some point")
  198. Ge0rG jonasw: you could ask for a time window as well ;)
  199. Steve Kille There are various changes I want to make, but they all need discussion with my co-author
  200. jonasw Ge0rG, indeed; I’m away for a week now though
  201. jonasw so this was probably not the smartest time for me to ask :)
  202. Ge0rG jonasw: you could ask something like "is it okay if I do it in a week" :P
  203. jonasw Ge0rG, in two weeks rather
  204. Steve Kille I have one editorial task, which you are welcome to take on (but I can also do easily) which is to ensure that ALL of the examples use .example (following IETF guidelines)
  205. Steve Kille I got editorial changes forced for:
  206. Steve Kille https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kille-ldap-xmpp-schema/
  207. Steve Kille jonasw: ping me on MIX editing. I am not expecting to make changes over the next few weeks
  208. jonasw Steve Kille, okay thanks
  209. pep. (What is a white page service?)
  210. Ge0rG pep.: a public phone book?
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  212. pep. Ohh
  213. pep. That
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  255. Ge0rG I think there is one very important twist missing from the current XHTML-IM vs. markdown vs. body-hints debate: We also need an explicit encoding for Emoji in ASCII form. Some clients will parse `(c)` as a mug of coffee, others as ©. We should standardize how Emoji are to be transmitted and translated.
  256. Kev As unicode. Job done.
  257. dwd Ge0rG, A good point to raise, and also Kev's right.
  258. Kev I suggest <no-emoticons xmlns='...'/> as a child element of the message.
  259. edhelas in Unicode � trust
  260. Kev So that recipients know that the sending client doesn't use text emoticons, only unicode emoji.
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  262. Ge0rG Kev: in theory, you are right. In practice, it is impossible for a client implementation to figure out which subset of Unicode is supported by its platform.
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  264. Kev That's ok, in a sense. Clients can e.g. swap out unicode emoji for images locally.
  265. Ge0rG Kev: we could of course define entity caps for a client to show which subset it supports.
  266. Kev I think (much as I hate it) that that's what Swift's going to have to do on Linux, at least, and probably Windows.
  267. Ge0rG I'm also a proponent of emoji hugification in IM. Because you can't read them at 8x16 pixels.
  268. Ge0rG TIL about emoji CLDR short names: "The CLDR short name for the character or sequence. Short names vary by language, and are from the CLDR data."
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  270. Ge0rG 😄 = :glimlaggende_gesig_met_oop_mond_en_glimlaggende_oë:
  271. Kev Or "Bob", to his friends.
  272. Ge0rG (I really like the Slack notation used for Emoji, where you use `:short_name:`)
  273. edhelas until you start to use things like jabber:x:data namespace in your message
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  275. jonasw aaand we’re back to the plain text markup story
  276. edhelas personnaly, I think that this discussion is pointless
  277. jonasw edhelas, note though that emoji names are (a) always surrounded by whitespace and (b) not to be used in transport, only in display when no emoji capability is there by the rendering engine
  278. Kev Ge0rG: That's great, but that's a client-side thing, no reason for us not to then transmit as unicode.
  279. Zash Are we going in circles or some kind of 5-dimentional figure 8?
  280. dwd jonasw, What? No, :stuff: is a client-side thing, surely?
  281. jonasw dwd, I sure hope though!
  282. edhelas if we have XHTML-IM security issues, we open tickets in the bugtrackers of the buggy clients, and that's it, end of story
  283. jonasw dwd, I sure hope so!
  284. Ge0rG Actually, Kev is right. Unicode should be the default transport format for Emoji. However, it would be great to have input conversion from ":)" to "😀" etc.
  285. Kev I agree wholeheartedly with that.
  286. jonasw :)
  287. jonasw it’s also lovely how this discussion messes with poezio
  288. Zash Client UX/UI issue?
  289. edhelas remember the Carbons security issue ? did we removed Carbons ? no
  290. Ge0rG Kev: that also means that clients without Emoji support need to keep a mapping table of all Emoji symbols to some other representation, like ASCII
  291. jonasw edhelas, one could argue that the vulnerability produced by XSS in XHTML-IM-Web-Clients is worse
  292. Kev Ge0rG: ugly, but sadly true.
  293. jonasw (up to stealing your password)
  294. edhelas we just added a small paragraph, released a security message, fixed all the buggy clients, and that was it
  295. Kev I'm actually tempted to write a XEP, given otherwise I'm busy setting up an AD this morning.
  296. jonasw Kev, oh the pain.
  297. edhelas jonasw define "worse"
  298. Ge0rG Kev: or we use client caps to indicate emoji support, and then the server can automagically translate unicode into :ascii: in outgoing messages!
  299. jonasw setting up LDAP is fun already, I don’t want to know how AD is like
  300. dwd Kev, You need some solid displacement activity.
  301. jonasw edhelas, stealing your password is arguably worse than being able to impersonate peers.
  302. Ge0rG Kev: write an XEP for what?
  303. Kev <no-emoticons xmlns='...'/>
  304. edhelas it's the responsibility of clients and servers devloppers to sanitize properly their I/O
  305. jonasw edhelas, yes, but do we need to make it hard for them?
  306. Ge0rG Kev: how would you handle ":)" with such an XEP marker?
  307. Kev Ge0rG: By rendering ":)"
  308. edhelas it's not "hard" to sanitize, most of those clients didn't even had any kind of security layer
  309. Ge0rG Kev: but that's not what people expect.
  310. jonasw Ge0rG, on the UI input or when received over the network?
  311. jonasw edhelas, source?
  312. Ge0rG jonasw: in both situations, because backward compatibility!11!
  313. jonasw I personally find @style hard to sanitize. You can’t do that with regexes alone.
  314. Kev Ge0rG: It's the sending client saying to the recipient "I have already done emoji conversion locally, so if there's something that looks like an ASCII emoticon in here, just render it as-is, because it's what the sender intended".
  315. jonasw (I’m pretty sure that the subset of CSS allowed by @style is not regular)
  316. edhelas jonasw if you code a client and simply do .innerHTML = message.body, well you should serously go take some Web dev courses again
  317. Ge0rG Kev: that makes sense to me.
  318. jonasw edhelas, and what if I don’t, but @style contains a background-image with a URL which makes the browser execute javascript?
  319. jonasw it’s a thing.
  320. edhelas seriously you want to reinvent your own markup ?
  321. jonasw edhelas, actually, I’m replaying the arguments of others here.
  322. edhelas looks like some JS hipster project
  323. jonasw my primary goal in this situation is to retain the capability for well-defined rich markup. If that’s by inventing our own rich markup or by providing a solid reference sanitizer for XHTML-IM, I don’t care.
  324. dwd edhelas, Most (decent) frameworks make that hard, but possible. The problem is that none of them make santizing HTML easy. The correct colution for embedding unknown-origin HTML is to enclose it in an iframe, but the problem there si that UX takes a hit.
  325. Ge0rG dwd: is copy&paste of message histories the only UX problem with iframes?
  326. jonasw Ge0rG, scrolling, sizing the iframe, …
  327. jonasw (but copy&paste is the worst, I think)
  328. jonasw and also iframes make me furious, I have to be able to select all the text!
  329. Ge0rG scrolling. ewwww.
  330. jonasw (I don’t think that you can tell an iframe to behave like a <div/> regarding layout, so that’s a whole can of worms there)
  331. jonasw (but maybe it’s possible I haven’t checked)
  332. edhelas personnally I just find XHTML-IM not great for users in general
  333. jonasw edhelas, why?
  334. edhelas and as I said, you'll have the exact same problem when users will use Atom in Pubsub
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  336. jonasw for atom in pubsub, using an iframe is probably more realitsic
  337. edhelas I have to deeply sanitize Atom content to ensure that I don't have JS/CSS/iframe injections in it
  338. jonasw Ge0rG, and I’m not sure you can access the dom of an iframe from the outside
  339. edhelas no, hell no
  340. edhelas just sanitize things, you have nice libs for that
  341. jonasw edhelas, where are those nice libs, and why doesn’t the XHTML-IM XEP mention them?
  342. edhelas https://github.com/ezyang/htmlpurifier for PHP
  343. jonasw for JS that is
  344. jonasw because we’re talking about actual web clients
  345. jonasw things running in HTML+JS
  346. edhelas https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/e30f6f59cdb10ab697629a455d7cbfb8ff316773/src/Movim/Daemon/Api.php#L101
  347. edhelas jonasw https://code.google.com/archive/p/google-caja/wikis/JsHtmlSanitizer.wiki ?
  348. jonasw There was an error obtaining wiki data: {"data":{"text":null},"status":-1,"config":{"method":"GET","transformRequest":[null],"jsonpCallbackParam":"callback","url":"https://www.googleapis.com/storage/v1/b/google-code-archive/o/v2%2Fcode.google.com%2Fgoogle-caja%2Fwiki%2FJsHtmlSanitizer.wiki?alt=media","headers":{"Accept":"application/json, text/plain, */*"}},"statusText":""}
  349. jonasw edhelas, did you just google that or is that a library with a good security track record?
  350. edhelas just googling around
  351. jonasw yeah, that’s not how this will work
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  353. Ge0rG Wow. a11n for Emoji is a black art on its own: http://unicode.org/repos/cldr/trunk/specs/ldml/tr35-general.html#SynthesizingNames
  354. edhelas but as I said, more than XHTML, I prefer to strip more of the tags and style, because I don't want my client discussion UI to look ugly
  355. jonasw Ge0rG, a11y for unicode is a black art on its own
  356. jonasw edhelas, we agree on burning @style with fire, right?
  357. edhelas I just agree to stop trying to fix a problem by bringing another one
  358. edhelas we have XHTML-IM, just bring good practice and fix those clients
  359. jonasw convince council :-)
  360. jonasw deep inside I’m still thinking that XHTML-IM can be "fixed" to the extent that developers are well-aware that it is tricky to get right and they’re also given the tools to do it right.
  361. Ge0rG web developers don't give a shit. They wouldn't be web developers otherwise.
  362. jonasw that’s a bit harsh
  363. dwd Ge0rG, I don't think that's true. I'm on a call with one now.
  364. edhelas Ge0rG thanks, much appreciated <3
  365. jonasw Ge0rG, I think there are web developers out there who actually want to make a good thing and who actually care. It’s not the majority though.
  366. jonasw (from what I feel when using web applications)
  367. Ge0rG edhelas: sorry. That was not intended to insult you. You are doing great work, actually.
  368. Ge0rG Oh my. They even distinguish AE and BE in the CLDR annotations: "😋" = "face savoring food" = "face savouring food"
  369. jonasw excellent
  370. Ge0rG "🥖" = "baguette bread" = "French stick" = "baguette" in English, depending on your locale.
  371. jonasw en_GB everywhere!
  372. Ge0rG An i18n a11y nightmare in five Emojis!
  373. Ge0rG (not that you could conclusively count the number of Emojis in a given UTF8 string)
  374. jonasw lovely
  375. jonasw why can’t we have nice things :(
  376. Ge0rG jonasw: because 🤦🏿🤖💩🤰
  377. jonasw what
  378. Ge0rG I wonder if "🤰♂" will be translated into "Arnold Schwarzenegger"
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  380. dwd I might have persuaded our FE dev to wade in on the XHTML issue.
  381. jonasw dwd, in which way "wade in"?
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  384. dwd jonasw, State his opinion. Given that he's a web/js developer first and foremost, it might be a useful perspective.
  385. jonasw mhm
  386. zinid edhelas also a web dev ;)
  387. edhelas damn, you unveiled me
  388. jonasw cue dramatic fanfare
  389. edhelas my evil plan of deploying broken XHTML-IM everywhere is falling appart
  390. Ge0rG world domination through XMPP XSS
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  392. dwd zinid, It is possible there is more than just one web dev indeed.
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  395. zinid dwd: so we need moar opinions? we don't get enough yet? :)
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  402. dwd zinid, We don't need opinions, so much as a consensus.
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  407. Link Mauve “10:17:01 jonasw> I personally find @style hard to sanitize. You can’t do that with regexes alone.”, indeed, you first have to split on “;” and then to split each value on “:” and then to pick only the elements you want to support from the left part. I would assume there is no language in which this is any difficult, though.
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  412. Link Mauve background-image is explicitly not allowed by XHTML-IM, you wouldn’t allow it.
  413. Ge0rG Link Mauve: couldn't you still inject function calls into the right part?
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  415. Link Mauve Ge0rG, none of the allowed properties support any URI or function call, I checked that the other day.
  416. Ge0rG Link Mauve: does that guarantee that browsers won't execute function calls / URIs when encountered there?
  417. Link Mauve I’ve found that browsers take security issue seriously, if the specification doesn’t allow such things and a bug is found in a browser, I’d expect it to be fixed very quickly.
  418. Ge0rG XHTML-IM it is, then!
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  460. Zash https://www.zash.se/xep-0071-4177863-security.html
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  604. Ge0rG Zash: it looks like the only item on the https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0038.html#sect-idm139548995353376 list that can't be mapped to Unicode is :jabber:. What an irony.
  605. Kev 💡 doesn't quite cut it, does it?
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  607. Zash Throw in some zwj stuff and call it a day
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  609. Ge0rG 💡 + Variant Selector 16.
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  614. Ge0rG So I've written a poezio plugin that replaces all incoming Emojis with their respective :alias:. And now I see how ugly it looks and that I still need to look on my phone to see if it was an Emoji originally.
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  624. moparisthebest but markup in <body> is bad, someone said
  625. Zash Unicode isn't markup
  626. Ge0rG moparisthebest: yes, and what I wrote underscores that point
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  629. moparisthebest Ge0rG‎: I still need to look on my phone to see if it was an Emoji originally
  630. moparisthebest my question is, why do you care
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  637. Zash @nickname is markup, right?
  638. Link Mauve Yeah.
  639. moparisthebest yep that's bad too, need a fancy UI and protocol established for highlighting someone
  640. Link Mauve moparisthebest, mentions already got a XEP.
  641. SamWhited Did it?
  642. SamWhited Link please!
  643. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I don't know why I care, but it turned out I do
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  645. Link Mauve I don’t think it was this one I was thinking about: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jid-mention.html
  646. Link Mauve Maybe references?
  647. Zash Heh, Link
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  649. Link Mauve Yes? :p
  650. moparisthebest Ge0rG, sounds like a personal problem vs a protocol problem :)
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  653. SamWhited *snort* I didn't mean to do that.
  654. SamWhited I'd forgotten about this one, thanks
  655. Zash Can {xep attention} be directed at a MUC participant?
  656. Bunneh Zash: XEP-0224: Attention (Standards Track, Draft, 2008-11-13) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0224.html
  657. moparisthebest jid-mention looks like a great way to spam more, that looks like about all it's useful for
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  668. Link Mauve Zash, sadly no.
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  679. goffi Link Mauve: jid-mention has been vetoed in favor of reference
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  682. Link Mauve Ok.
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  720. SamWhited Just got kicked from mucs on this server when I joined in another client. No idea why.
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  729. Link Mauve SamWhited, a lot of people just left with “Kicked: remote server not found: Server-to-server connection failed: DNS resolution failed” as their status.
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  731. Link Mauve The same second as yours.
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  734. SamWhited ah, maybe my joining from another client was a red herring
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  796. dwd In terms of "marking up" a mention, XEP-0372 is the best thinking we have currently.
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  817. SamWhited References seems nice, but I wish the bit that reads "TODO: define character appropriately" were expanded. I don't think it could be implemented as-is in an interoperable manner without that bit being expanded.
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