XSF Discussion - 2017-10-22

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  152. zinid regarding message routing 2.0: can't we just make servers to always carbon messages to local users?
  153. zinid so if there is user@server/r1 and user@server/r2, then a message to user@server will be routed to r1 and r2, as well as a message to user@server/r1 will be routed to both r1 and r2
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  155. Zash Bare JID routing like that is already allowed. Full JID forking would be problematic.
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  157. zinid Zash: yes, no problems with bare JID routing, but what problems do you see with forking?
  158. Zash Non-chat messages basically.
  159. zinid example?
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  161. Zash IBB file transfer, MAM responses. Basically stuff that maybe shouldn't have been messages to begin with, but we don't have a generic non-message payload container.
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  164. zinid what about using 'no-copy' for them?
  165. Zash Don't you also get roughtly the same behaviour if all clients just always send chat messages to the bare JID?
  166. zinid yes, but what to do with old clients?
  167. Zash Will old clients add 'no-copy'?
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  169. Zash What about old servers?
  170. zinid and what's wrong with them?
  171. zinid also, it's server responsibility to add no-copy for MAM messages
  172. Zash > can't we just make servers [do stuff]
  173. Zash what
  174. zinid what
  175. zinid old servers will monkey with carbons, like it is now
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  178. Zash I haven't looked too closely at message routing 2.0, but something that boils down to having carbons enabled by default is probably fine
  179. zinid I don't think these new rules affect s2s
  180. zinid or MUC, or whatever
  181. zinid so the idea is: 1) upgrade your server to always fork 2) upgrade mam module to inject no-copy 3) disable carbon module
  182. zinid ah, 2nd is not needed, the messages are local anyway, the server can detect it's a MAM message and won't carbon
  183. Zash Except MAM-MUC
  184. zinid no-copy in this case indeed
  185. Zash Tho Prosody doesn't carbon type=normal messages unless they have a body, and MAM payloads don't
  186. zinid I also don't see major difficulties if clients will receive forked mam messages
  187. zinid as well as ibb
  188. zinid sure, it will consume bandwidth, but not fatal
  189. Zash Most of those problems are actually avoided by only carboning type=chat or ( type=normal with body )
  190. zinid maybe
  191. Zash And no-copy for when that doesn't work
  192. Zash like OTR
  193. Zash But old clients using OTR doesn't add no-copy, so yay
  194. zinid is it a problem?
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  196. zinid I mean a user will experience something weird?
  197. zinid or is it just traffic problem?
  198. Zash I don't know, never used OTR
  199. Zash OTR not doing well with multiple clients can most likely cause weirdness
  200. zinid same here :D
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  208. zinid receipts are of type normal, hehe
  209. Zash Are they? Not the same type as the message being acked?
  210. Zash Chat states are weird.
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  212. zinid Zash: I just grepped 'type' in receipts XEP and didn't find any mention about it
  213. Zash Needs clarification perhaps?
  214. zinid or maybe it's described in other words
  215. zinid regarding chat states: "This protocol SHOULD NOT be used with message types other than "chat" or "groupchat"
  216. zinid "The 'type' attribute for content messages and standalone notifications SHOULD be set to a value of "chat" (for one-to-one sessions) or "groupchat" (for many-to-many sessions)."
  217. zinid I'm thinking to implement this stuff on my local server to check corner cases
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  227. Ge0rG I'm going to write another mail to standards@ about how broken message type is. Acks and CSN are on my list
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  229. Ge0rG Also the problem is not carbons, the problem is rerouting of full JID messages to a different client if the first client just went offline
  230. Ge0rG Carbons have their own, related problems, but the current carbon rules are so vague that even an ancient transcribing monk would fulfill them.
  231. Zash https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#rules-localpart-fulljid-nomatch all this?
  232. Ge0rG Zash: yeah. I was told that ejabberd will violate that and reroute 'normal' messages as well, because they are used by many clients instead of chat.
  233. Zash I believe Prosody does so as well
  234. Ge0rG Zash: could you check the code please?
  235. Zash https://hg.prosody.im/0.10/file/0.10.0/plugins/mod_message.lua#l72 https://hg.prosody.im/0.10/file/0.10.0/plugins/mod_message.lua#l34
  236. Zash TL;DR full jid messages to an non-existent resource are treated exactly as bare jid messages
  237. Zash normal and chat types are treaded the same
  238. Ge0rG Zash: and headline will be sent to all resources?
  239. Zash headline to bare
  240. Zash Yes
  241. Ge0rG Headline to non existent will be sent to bare, then to all.
  242. Zash Right-o
  243. Ge0rG Yay for standard compliance.
  244. zinid I think the changes we're talking about should be atomically applied to the server
  245. zinid so we fix all issues in one go
  246. Ge0rG zinid: there is no easy fix.
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  249. zinid why would we bounce messages if they are already forked?
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  251. Ge0rG Bounce = ?
  252. zinid re-route
  253. zinid or maybe that's not the same as bounce
  254. zinid I'm lost ;)
  255. Ge0rG Please state the nature of the technical emergency.
  256. zinid you're so funny
  257. Ge0rG I know 😛
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  261. Ge0rG There is forking, rerouting and carbon copying. And then there is MUC that sends a new messages that might or might not have the same properties as the message you sent to the muc
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  266. zinid what's the difference between them?
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  268. zinid forking is creating exact duplicates as I undersand, unlike carbons with wrappers
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  270. zinid and what is re-routing? I cannot find it in the RFC
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  272. Zash > If there is more than one resource with a non-negative presence priority then the server MUST either (a) deliver the message to the "most available" resource or resources (according to the server's implementation-specific algorithm, e.g., treating the resource or resources with the highest presence priority as "most available") or (b) deliver the message to all of the non-negative resources that have opted in to receive chat messages.
  273. zinid " that have opted in to receive chat messages"?
  274. zinid I didn't get it
  275. Zash Have sent presence that doesn't have priority with a negative value
  276. Zash So basically that part is redundant with "non-negative resources"
  277. zinid ok
  278. zinid so the RFC allows to fork by default?
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  280. Zash Sounds like
  281. zinid so nothing should be changed ;)
  282. Zash Everyhing is fine.
  283. Ge0rG It depends on message type.
  284. Ge0rG Zash: you can't quote only one of the four relevant sections and claim everything is fine!
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  286. Zash I just did!
  287. Ge0rG Damn. It looks like you can. But I won't let you get away with it!
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  294. zinid there is weird shit in ejabberd regarding this re-routing thingy
  295. zinid fixed by 6 contributors
  296. Ge0rG In my understanding, rerouting is when a message to a full JID is sent by the server to a different full jid
  297. zinid yes
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  299. zinid from the RFC
  300. Ge0rG That is only allowed to happen with type=chat messages.
  301. Ge0rG But the servers violate it
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  303. zinid ejabberd applies the same rule for chats and normals
  304. zinid from what I understand from the code
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  306. Ge0rG Yes, because some clients send 'normal' and users complain if the messages don't arrive
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  308. zinid other message types are dropped silently
  309. Ge0rG You should send back errors, that helps kicking out zombies from MUCs
  310. zinid for groupchat?
  311. zinid or both groupchat and headline?
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  313. Ge0rG It shouldn't hurt for all of them
  314. Ge0rG Except error of course
  315. zinid I'm not sure, the last rules were written by Holger
  316. zinid I think he did that on purpose
  317. zinid so need to ask him first
  318. Zash Can we take a moment to complain about Github sending markdown as "text/plain"
  319. Ge0rG He changed back normal rerouting. It was disabled for a short time and people complained
  320. Ge0rG Zash: stop derailing
  321. Zash Aw
  322. zinid ah, groupchats are bounced indeed
  323. zinid only headlines are dropped
  324. zinid wonderful
  325. Ge0rG Good enough
  326. Zash Did ejabberd drop the thing where it expects the receiving server to fork PEP notifications?
  327. zinid Zash: no idea :) I never wrote routing rules for ejabberd :)
  328. Zash Or was it that it expected the receiving server to filter?
  329. Zash Sending to the bare jid and having the receiver fork and apply filters would have been neat, if negotiated.
  330. zinid yes, ejabberd expected remote servers to filter peps, but we was severely blamed for this and removed it
  331. zinid but I still think it's much better idea than collecting caps from whole world
  332. pep. Zash> TL;DR full jid messages to an non-existent resource are treated exactly as bare jid messages < that breaks biboumi direct messages iiuc :(
  333. pep. But maybe I should see first why it doesn't get a unavailable presence
  334. Zash pep.: my opinion on that is that IRC and XMPP bridges are inherently impossible to get right.
  335. zinid Zash: that's a problem with all gateways, that's why I stopped fiddling with them
  336. pep. Well here proosdy is not following the spec, or did I get that right?
  337. pep. Well here proosdy is not following the spec, or did I get that wrong?
  338. pep. Well here prosody is not following the spec, or did I get that wrong?
  339. Zash Uh, to many contexts at the same time
  340. Zash But those are chat messages, correct?
  341. pep. yes
  342. Zash And chat messages to a non-existent full JID are to be sent to any available resource according to the RFC.
  343. pep. hmm, ok I got it wrong then
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  346. Ge0rG pep.: I've changed my comment on #3304 recently
  347. pep. I see. So my only hope is for biboumi to catch unavailable presences?
  348. pep. From these resources
  349. Ge0rG pep.: RACE CONDITIONS!!1!!
  350. pep. Why are computers borken like that :(
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  352. Ge0rG Because they consist of a dozen abstraction layers piled up on a little brick of sand
  353. zinid Tons of legacy crap
  354. zinid Tcp, ipv4, and so on
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  356. jonasw so much for poezio reconnecting
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  374. Guus dwd, not in open_chat?
  375. Guus (I've asked a _very_ intelligent question there)
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  394. Testinator -certinfo muc.xmpp.org
  395. Bunneh Testinator: muc.xmpp.org has an untrusted certificate that expired 13 hours and 42 minutes ago issued by Let's Encrypt Authority X3
  396. Testinator Ping intosi, other iteam people. Cert alert!
  397. Guus other iteam people: please educate me
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  550. Holger zinid: Our routing rules should be fully 6121-compliant by now, with the one exception that type=normal messages to an unavailable full JID are rerouted rather than bounced.
  551. Holger zinid: We had one release that bounced them as per 6121, users went nuts so we reverted this.
  552. zinid Holger: got it
  553. Holger FWIW, I don't get the "opt in" part here either: "(b) deliver the message to all of the non-negative resources that have opted in to receive chat messages."
  554. Holger If it was just about non-negative priority then the "opt in" part of the sentence is totally redundant?
  555. Holger Whatever.
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  557. Holger > Most of those problems are actually avoided by only carboning type=chat or ( type=normal with body ) Nah, this goes wrong in many places.
  558. zinid Holger woke up :D
  559. Holger :-)
  560. Holger Regarding XMPP 2.0 (or what's it called?), it's not important but I would find it most intuitive if all messages to bare JIDs were forked (regardless of type) and all messages to full JIDs aren't. I.e. the bare JID addresses the account, the full JID the client.
  561. waqas I think we should skip 2.0, and move on to 3.0 directly.
  562. zinid 3.0 is matrix?
  563. zinid so we should skip to 4.0
  564. Holger This will only replace carbons if outgoing messages are also forked, of course.
  565. Holger XMPP 17.10.
  566. SamWhited 3.0 is we get rid of the RFCs and just declare that everything is pubsub!
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  568. waqas SamWhited: But pubsub isn't turing complete…
  569. zinid we need to use blockchain to be modern enough
  570. waqas Aware of Ethereum smart contracts?
  571. zinid those with 200Gb ledgers?
  572. zinid great technology
  573. SamWhited You're forgetting, storage space and RAM are free and infinite. My computer science education told me so.
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  576. Ge0rG Let's rewrite xmpp as a Turing machine
  577. SamWhited Also the entire world has 10 gig internet connections. These are facts that modern technologists know.
  578. SamWhited Ge0rG: with actual physical tape!
  579. Ge0rG SamWhited: gaffer tape?
  580. Ge0rG To make the messages stick!
  581. zinid SamWhited: I'm reading at the moment the paper where they achieved a great performance of blockchain within 100 nodes :D Cutting edge science
  582. Ge0rG The B in blockchain is for bullshit...
  583. Zash Holger, department of redundancy department indeed
  584. Zash And let's skip to XMPP 2000
  585. zinid didn't we pass this already?
  586. zinid the current state is ICQ2001b
  587. Zash is catching up
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  589. Zash -certinfo muc.xmpp.org
  590. Bunneh Zash: Host unreachable: remote-server-not-found
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