XSF Discussion - 2017-10-24

  1. matlag Yes, and apparently the take away for the moment is someone does not like your mascote
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  38. Arc mascote?
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  67. edhelas yup saw that, I answered on the discussion already
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  70. edhelas at least people are not talking about Matrix :p
  71. Zash Great success
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  78. zinid is matrix still alive?
  79. zinid I still remember the claim "Insanely scalable and performant next-generation server (Dendrite) on the horizon" and waiting patiently
  80. edhelas soon
  81. Zash You get a ruby thing that needs 2 gigs of memory for a few users
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  84. edhelas RAM is meant to be used
  85. zinid nah
  86. zinid it's in Go
  87. Zash I mean the current server
  88. zinid the current is in python
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  91. Zash Same same :P
  92. zinid yes, crap
  93. zinid and then they chose another crap
  94. zinid every server in Go I used is leaking and unstable as hell
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  118. zinid damn, I cannot even read the MIX XEP, yet I have to implement it, wtf...
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  120. edhelas I know that feeling
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  142. dwd zinid, You're implementing MIX? Our implementation still doesn't entirely match the XEP. Too many things don't work well in practise.
  143. zinid dwd: I implemented the very first version, it's outdated of course
  144. zinid and looking at the current XEP I'm losing motivation, it's overly complex
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  146. Ge0rG Maybe we can just fix MUC.
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  148. dwd zinid, Some parts are fine. Others get a bit weird, mostly around proxy vs real jids.
  149. Zash Ge0rG: Make me motivated to work on mod_minimix or whatever I called it. Makes you join MUCs with your bare JID. I forget what parts got weird.
  150. zinid Ge0rG: I also tend to think it's easier to fix MUC
  151. zinid or implement "simple" muc
  152. Ge0rG Zash: write to standards@!
  153. Zash Ge0rG: Implementation first!
  154. Zash Ge0rG: Technically not requiring any standards yet. Protocol doesn't change.
  155. Ge0rG Zash: joining with a bare JID is a protocol change.
  156. Zash Does MUC forbid that?
  157. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure it does
  158. zinid really?
  159. Ge0rG okay, I'm not sure.
  160. Zash Arbitrary JID limitations should go away
  161. dwd No, it doesn't.
  162. Zash What if a server wants to join a room that doesn't have a node? :)
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  164. dwd Oh, room jids have to be of specific forms.
  165. Ge0rG what if a server wants to join a room that runs at the bare JID of the server?
  166. Ge0rG dwd: you can join chat.yax.im as a MUC.
  167. dwd Ge0rG, You're not making the argument you think you are there.
  168. Ge0rG dwd: I'm not sure I wanted to make an argument at all
  169. dwd Ge0rG, First bullet-point in XEP-0045§3.
  170. Ge0rG dwd: that is not normative
  171. dwd Ge0rG, What? Why not?
  172. Zash > For the sake of backwards-compatibility [with] groupchat 1.0
  173. dwd Zash, That is indeed the rationale for the requirement stated.
  174. Ge0rG dwd: it merely states a result of some historical quirks, it doesn't require that a MUC MUST have that form.
  175. Zash dwd: How does that translate into bare host rooms being forbidden?
  176. dwd Ge0rG, You think unless it uses a mystical incantation of RFC 2119 you can ignore it?
  177. Ge0rG dwd: I think that "well written" and "XEP 0045" don't belong into the same sentence.
  178. dwd Zash, It says they're requirements. Seems they're probably required. Whether that's a good idea or not is an entirely different matter.
  179. Zash dwd: What, and here I was just grepping for MUST and ignored everything else! :)
  180. zinid yeah, this is very important problem: should a room have node part? it should be resolved asap!
  181. Zash dwd: But does that mean you need to support room@host or *only* room@host?
  182. Zash mumbles on about ambiguity
  183. Ge0rG dwd: there is no requirement that the room name must be non-empty
  184. dwd Zash, It's there as a statement of fact: "Each room is identified as a "room JID" <room@service>", so I'd say if a room cannot be so identified it's not conformant to the spec.
  185. dwd Ge0rG, Yes there is, the local-part of a jid cannot be zero-length.
  186. dwd Zash, I'm not saying this is a sensible requirement, or that it wouldn't work any other way. I'm merely saying that this is what the XEP says.
  187. Ge0rG except the XEP is not very clear in its wording
  188. zinid Ge0rG: "each room is identified"
  189. zinid isn't this clear?
  190. dwd Zash, But anyway. It says nothing I can find on the subject of what the occupant's real jids are (though it infers they're full jids a few times, it never states this as a requirement).
  191. Zash So MUC at bare host aren't rooms, but special magical hidden places for cool people only! :)
  192. zinid of course, "MUST be of <room@server>" would be clearly, but XEP authors prefer very long sentence with cryptic words :)
  193. Zash dwd: Shiny
  194. Ge0rG Zash: XEP authors are people, too
  195. Zash dwd: So nothing prevents a server from just sending one join stanza, then keeping track of which local resources have joined, forking incoming groupchats as needed
  196. Ge0rG Zash: so you are moving MSN from the MUC to the user's server
  197. dwd zinid, "Each room MUST be identified as" would be longer, not shorter. But FWIW, I really hate littering a document with RFC 2119 language, and prefer to use it more sparingly to highlight more subtle cases.
  198. Zash Which also means it can easily do MAM without a mess
  199. Zash Ge0rG: Pretty much, yes
  200. Ge0rG Zash: and MUC-PMs
  201. Ge0rG But it would probably break biboumi in surprising ways
  202. dwd Zash, More or less. But presence would remain a mess. And if you avoided that, you're getting very close to MIX.
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  204. Zash dwd: Why I called my draft code "minimix" :)
  205. Ge0rG Zash: write it in a way that you can plug it into MUC or into the server, and fix nick changes etc.
  206. Ge0rG and presence priority.
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  208. zinid dwd: I just wanted to say that would be great to have shorter sentences with simplier words, think about non-native speakers
  209. zinid dwd: I recall there is even RFC stating that
  210. Ge0rG zinid: there is a reason for so many Shakespeare references in the XEPs.
  211. dwd zinid, Yes, I agree simple sentences are better.
  212. zinid Ge0rG: to promote English culture?
  213. dwd zinid, Even though its an American doing so, most of the time.
  214. dwd zinid, I'd be tempted, myself, to use Tolstoy. More characters, for a start.
  215. zinid dwd: but this is clearly your move :P In other RFCs are just used Bob and Alice
  216. Ge0rG dwd: that reminds me of http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm
  217. dwd zinid, Also, I read War and Peace (and various other Tolstoy, Chekov, Dostoyevsky) back in my teens and cannot remember the characters anymore.
  218. zinid dwd: lol, I didn't even read them :D
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  224. dwd zinid, Well, I did read them in English, in fairness.
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  312. SamWhited I think I skipped War and Peace in highschool, but Anna Karenina is still one of my favorite books.
  313. SamWhited zinid: what servers in Go gave you trouble? One of Go's features is that it makes resource leaks hard, so that surprises me.
  314. zinid SamWhited: ipfs
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  316. zinid https://github.com/ipfs/go-ipfs/issues/4312
  317. zinid one of the point is memory leaking
  318. zinid gc performance sucks also
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  320. SamWhited How did they manage that? Go's gc can correct a 50 gig heap in under 10ms in most cases
  321. SamWhited *collect
  322. zinid is it from Google's advertisement? :)
  323. Holger Complex systems run into memory leaks more or less easily no matter what the language, no?
  324. SamWhited No, it's from data I've seen in prod.
  325. zinid Holger: we have ejabberd with several month uptime without leaking for example
  326. zinid yes, the consumption might be high, but not leaking
  327. Holger zinid: Yes sure, I'm not saying all complex systems are leaking :-)
  328. Ge0rG All complex systems are leaking, just at different speeds ;)
  329. Holger But if you get something wrong, i.e. if you accumulate references to blobs over time, no GC in the world will save you from that.
  330. SamWhited I'm reasonably sure none of these things have anything to do with the language though; you can't have a traditional memory leak in go because there's gc, but if you always add things to an append only list and keep a reverence forever then obviously there's nothing the language can do
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  332. SamWhited You can leak resources in Go, eg. forget to close a file descriptor or have an infinitely looping coroutine, but defer/close makes that pretty hard to do.
  333. zinid the point is that it doesn't matter how you leak it
  334. zinid also, would be great to have tools
  335. zinid to see where is leaking
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  337. zinid and looking at IPFS guys there are no such tools :)
  338. SamWhited It does if you're going to blame the language, because if it's a bug I'd like to fix it. What kind of tools?
  339. SamWhited There is extensive tooling for that
  340. zinid https://github.com/ipfs/go-ipfs/issues/3532
  341. zinid one year already, with several duplicates
  342. zinid you might want to suggest them the tool :)
  343. Zash Tooling for what, exactly?
  344. SamWhited I will, that sounds like the ipfs people just don't know what they're doing. Pprof can ve used to monitor the heap size, and all Go binaries have built in gc logging (you can set an environment variable and they'll dump runtime statistics)
  345. Holger I'm not sure Go servers will typically use goroutines in a similar way to Erlang processes. If so I'd want tools to query resource usage and state of individual goroutines (or groups of them), to modify the state, to kill them; or I'll return to Erlang :-)
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  347. Zash I want tools too
  348. SamWhited Holger: I don't think it makes sense to do that, they're much lighter weight and you might have multiple per task, but you could.
  349. Holger Zash: Says the Lua programmer ... :-)
  350. Holger SamWhited: Much leighter weight than what? It makes a *lot* of sense in Erlang.
  351. SamWhited It doesn't make sense in Go, I mean. Go's coroutines are lighter weight.
  352. Holger Than what :-)
  353. Holger If you're a server, would you typically use a goroutine to handle a client connection?
  354. SamWhited Yes, maybe several.
  355. Holger If so you will of course take advantage of being able to introspect that at runtime.
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  357. SamWhited Yes, it's certainly not as easy as in a dynamic language, but there are process monitoring tools to show you long running goroutines
  358. SamWhited Monitoring is common, manually killing or changing the state isn't, it's not a dynamic language. Although there are debuggers that can do that, I guess.
  359. SamWhited Well, monitoring is as easy, mutating isn't.
  360. zinid supervision can be implemented in any language
  361. zinid but seems like everyone copies idea of "goroutines" and think they got Erlang
  362. Ge0rG But everbody knows that you need overpriced special experts for Erlang and C++ projects.
  363. zinid lack of runtime introspection is the stopper factor for me in any such fancy language
  364. Holger They have hype. Go is a bit like Matrix :-)
  365. Holger (Well except that Go is actually successful.)
  366. zinid lol
  367. zinid fair remark :D
  368. edhelas Matrix is successfull, there's thousands of subscribers on their chatrooms
  369. Zash Shun the hype!
  370. zinid edhelas: they have even me there!
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  372. zinid but I don't use Matrix...
  373. Zash edhelas: Is that an accurate indicator of success?
  374. edhelas zinid you're a spy on cover sent by the XSF ?
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  376. zinid edhelas: I used to be a spy once (or twice)
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  379. SamWhited I really wanted to like matrix, but the basic premise of the protocol is crap and they built it in an unsustainable way (and then were surprised when the money dried up)
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  383. Zash SamWhited: Why did you want to like it?
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  385. zinid "unsustainable way"? what do you mean? like they don't have enough resources to develop/promote/etc it?
  386. SamWhited Zash: So that I could have something that was an interoperable and federated standard that wasn't our broken crap, unfortunately it never became the alternative I hoped it would
  387. SamWhited zinid: they had enough resources, until they didn't. It's unsustainable because they expected one company to pay them for full time developers forever
  388. zinid Ah
  389. SamWhited And we saw how that works out… not that they couldn't continue it in a more sustainable way now, but they seem to expect to still be able to be paid full time for it.
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  391. Guus What irks me is that it's just one implementation - done by the same people that develop the standards.
  392. zinid well the idea that a single company controls a *federated* protocol is broken
  393. Guus not sure if it's broken - but it does not bode well.
  394. SamWhited Yah, I hoped they'd get other implementations later, but it wasn't a healthy ecosystem
  395. edhelas what about OStatus/ActivityPub ?
  396. zinid from innovative perspective I used to find Tox even more interesting than Matrix, but it's dead too
  397. zinid There is Ring.cx, but buggy as hell
  398. edhelas Ring is interesting but unfortunately their architecture prevent them to have advanced features
  399. edhelas like history, sync and profiles
  400. edhelas you cannot compare apples and oranges
  401. zinid edhelas: I think it's possible with dumb servers
  402. zinid Aka backup servers
  403. edhelas WhatsApp like
  404. zinid Well it scales good
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  406. Zash Talking about p2p with servers?
  407. edhelas nah
  408. zinid Zash: hybrid
  409. zinid But more p2pish
  410. edhelas the whatsapp accounts are bound to the devices
  411. edhelas so to sync history between devices, or migrating them they use "backup servers"
  412. Zash Like Skype?
  413. zinid You see, if you have several devices you can synchronize yourself, you don't even need backups
  414. edhelas Skype is now a dumb centralized service since Microsoft bought them
  415. Zash Any client dev interested in doing client to client MAM?
  416. edhelas but why :D
  417. zinid And if all your devices offline and someone sent you a message, you will request it on login (via Delta from the contact)
  418. Zash edhelas: IIRC they switched it to the MSN infrastructure
  419. zinid So backups might not even be needed, at least for everyone
  420. zinid There is a problem with conferences in such system tho
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  436. dwd As edhelas says, Skype centralized a while back, mostly because of mobile devices.
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  439. zinid dwd: yes, mobile complicates everything, especially ios restrictions
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