XSF Discussion - 2017-10-25

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  247. jonasw poezio looks confused
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  273. edhelas hey guys, already heard about that ? https://software-otomax.com/setting-jabber-di-otomax.html
  274. edhelas some services are using XMPP servers as money transaction system, mostly in Indonesia
  275. edhelas I'm considering those accounts created as spam and deleting them on my server
  276. Zash Isn't this more of an operators@ topic?
  277. edhelas oh sorry, will discuss about that on operators@
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  285. Arc wait, crytocurrency transactions, or actual currency?
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  288. zinid xmpp can be used for cryptocurrencies, because, despite the intention, they fall into "trust your server" category (e.g. there is full-mode node holding blockchain and lots of tiny clients)
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  293. Arc ok
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  305. Arc ralphm: nyco: you around?
  306. ralphm Yes
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  308. Arc ok so team A today
  309. ralphm Awesome?
  310. Arc sure A can be awesome, refering to we either have mattj + martin, or ralph + nyco
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  312. Arc do we have anything for the agenda?
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  314. dwd Arc, I believe Martin is travelling right now.
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  317. Arc meeting time
  318. Arc but do we have quorum?
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  320. ralphm Hi
  321. ralphm bangs gavel
  322. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  323. ralphm Who do we have?
  324. Arc Here
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  327. nyco hey
  328. nyco sorry
  329. nyco late... :'(
  330. nyco quorum achieved
  331. ralphm Besides trello items, anything else we should discuss?
  332. nyco I don't see...
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  334. Guus Summit/fosdem?
  335. Arc google code-in is happening
  336. Arc XSF missed the application window tho
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  338. ralphm Guus: yeah, I was going to put that on
  339. MattJ Sorry, thought I was in the room but I wasn't
  340. ralphm Hi MattJ
  341. ralphm I see Draft/Stable
  342. ralphm And the eternal editor recruitment that I think we can remove
  343. ralphm Also elections
  344. nyco yeah, summit, only one day this year?
  345. ralphm So let's get going
  346. ralphm 1. FOSDEM / XMPP Summit
  347. nyco we got the RTC devroom, thx to Saul, again, thx to him
  348. ralphm Why one day only? Last time we easily filled up two days.
  349. nyco we have no RTC lounge... yet... afaik
  350. ralphm nyco: yeah, I was aware of it all
  351. ralphm I will apply for the Lounge as always
  352. nyco thx
  353. nyco also, isn't that for the SCAM team? what would the board contribute to this?
  354. Guus ralphm: please educate me
  355. Guus So that I can do it next year
  356. ralphm Guus: I know I haven't been very communicative regarding SCAM, but I consider myself associated with it :_D
  357. Guus Scam lacks the experience
  358. ralphm It is just filling in a form, mostly copy/paste
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  360. ralphm And the org knows me so that helps too
  361. Guus ralphm:cool, but still, you should not be the only capable one
  362. ralphm Agreed
  363. ralphm So I will list you as contact, too
  364. Guus I'm a car now, let's take this on later, scam MUC?
  365. ralphm Anyway, board-wise I can only think of two things
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  367. ralphm a) do we do a Summit?
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  370. Arc of course?
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  373. ralphm b) what things do we need for Summit/FOSDEM and how much money would we need
  374. ralphm For b) I think we need to make a little plan within SCAM and then tell board
  375. ralphm For a), I totally think we should yes
  376. Guus +1
  377. nyco you are a car ?
  378. ralphm I am not a car.
  379. Guus In a car
  380. nyco summit, yeah, of course, why not?
  381. nyco I guessed, joking ;-)
  382. nyco question is rather: 1 or 2 days? and is it a real question?
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  384. ralphm I'd go with 2 as always
  385. nyco why not 5? ;-)
  386. nyco 2 days, +1 for me as well
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  388. ralphm I pensiled in Feb 1 and 2
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  393. nyco so, we pass the hot potato to the SCAM team?
  394. ralphm if SCAM has a good plan for more days, I'm very curious about it :-D
  395. nyco we can ask this team
  396. nyco team answers: none so far
  397. Arc the first 365-day summit
  398. ralphm Hah
  399. nyco oh wow
  400. nyco how about 366?
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  402. Arc because after 365, the next summit begins
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  404. nyco and, still an open question to the SCAM team: do we keep the very same format?
  405. ralphm Good questions. I'd love to answer that with Guus and whoever is in SCAM these days
  406. ralphm Is that just nyco?
  407. Guus Will formulate answer for next weeks board meeting
  408. Guus Daniel too
  409. ralphm Ok
  410. nyco and Daniel, and you
  411. ralphm right
  412. nyco left
  413. ralphm I didn't leave?
  414. Zash ↑↓↑↓
  415. ralphm ah
  416. ralphm funny
  417. ralphm anyway
  418. ralphm 2. Elections
  419. dwd has left
  420. nyco oh
  421. Arc they're up
  422. ralphm I read in the minutes from last time that Alex was on this, but no update?
  423. Arc the pages are on the wiki, official announcements have been made
  424. Guus Announcement was made
  425. Arc https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2017
  426. nyco so, what do we have to discuss here?
  427. Arc https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2017
  428. Guus Board should find candidates of possible
  429. ralphm Well, I haven't seen an announcement on that we are looking for candidates?
  430. nyco oh, Joe Demo is a candidate, welcome Joe Demo
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  432. ralphm In any case, if anyone currently on Board wants to do another term, do add your name there
  433. Arc is joe demo a person or a placeholder page
  434. dwd has left
  435. nyco placeholder
  436. Arc that's what i thought
  437. ralphm Well, it is a red link, so not even a page
  438. Arc i guess someone could be named Joe Demo...
  439. nyco why Joe Demo? we have Juliet and Romeo all over the places...
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  441. nyco ok, interesting debate
  442. nyco so, what do we have to discuss/decide here?
  443. ralphm Well, we are responsible for making sure elections can happen
  444. nyco so, checklist ok?
  445. ralphm So I wanted to know what the current state is. I don't see Alex here
  446. Arc we're responsible for handing over the baton to the new board
  447. ralphm well that too
  448. nyco I don't have a baton
  449. nyco ok then
  450. nyco next agenda item?
  451. ralphm yes
  452. ralphm 3. XEP-0001 Draft/Stable
  453. ralphm Where are we on this?
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  455. Guus Iirc a request for more feedback was supposed to be sent, but in think our was not
  456. ralphm Minutes says MattJ will send a proposal
  457. Guus Mattj?
  458. ralphm didn't see one
  459. MattJ Errr, sorry, totally dropped that one
  460. ralphm Can we remove this from 'to be discussed'?
  461. MattJ Yeah
  462. MattJ Writing it on my todo now, like I should have done at the time
  463. ralphm I'll put it in commitments
  464. MattJ Thanks
  465. Guus Tx
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  467. ralphm Ok
  468. ralphm I think that was it
  469. ralphm 4. AOB?
  470. ralphm Anything?
  471. ralphm Taking that as a no.
  472. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  473. ralphm +1W
  474. ralphm 6. Close
  475. ralphm Thanks all!
  476. ralphm bangs gavel
  477. nyco ok, thx ;-)
  478. nyco wow, finished before :30!!!
  479. ralphm Yeah, I'm getting back to be on top of the game
  480. Arc thats amazing
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  482. nyco great to see
  483. Guus Arc: Observatory docker status?
  484. Guus You volunteer ed for that iirc
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  486. Arc still working on it
  487. Arc i have a bit of docker to do this month
  488. Guus Cool. Dare to ETA?
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  537. zinid > So with 3 (+1) votes and 2 (-1) votes, we decide to change the state of XEP-0071: XHTML-IM to Obsolete Hehe
  538. zinid ah, then council decided not to deprecate, neat
  539. edhelas can't wait for JSON-IM
  540. SamWhited It was a misunderstanding of the rules; 0001 was confusing.
  541. SamWhited We thought it was a simple majority, but it's a majority +1s and no -1s
  542. MattJ (in this case I'm glad, *ducks*)
  543. SamWhited :'(
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  545. MattJ We have problems, but declaring that we essentially don't have any way of communicating formatted messages (especially when most clients support it) would be wrong
  546. Kev Council didn't know how their voting worked, but thankfully someone else did ;)
  547. MattJ It's not like declaring it obsolete will solve the security issues, people will still implement it if other clients do, if there is no replacement
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  550. Zash Rewrite it as 90% security considerations and get an audited JS implementation?
  551. zinid we can write it in ocaml, prove it in coq and compile to javascript :D
  552. edhelas I have a question, do we really need XHTML-IM at first ? I mean who is using it ?
  553. edhelas I'd like to have some clear usecases here, because if it's about embedding pictures and so we already have other XEPs for that
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  565. Link Mauve Zash, sounds like the best course of action.
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  567. Link Mauve zinid, I’d love if you did that. <3
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  570. Wiktor edhelas: I'm sending command outputs as pre tags
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  572. Link Mauve Wiktor, about that, I’m going to change poezio’s implementation to send <pre><code class="lang-python">print('Hello world!')</code></pre> instead of the current way, and hopefully specify this usage of the class attribute at the same time.
  573. Wiktor Sounds good 👍
  574. Wiktor With this nice Google coloring library I can just insert it into DOM...
  575. Wiktor ducks
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  577. Wiktor No just kidding but images are already solved in a different way so for me preformatted text is the most important use case... I like code snippets and nicely aligned ASCII tables...
  578. MattJ XHTML-IM should be a whitelist of tags, no CSS and no dangerous attributes, it needs to have very clear guidelines on how to implement it safely
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  580. MattJ and maybe that's a new XEP that replaces the current one, that's fine
  581. MattJ But changing the status of the current one is not the fix for the issue
  582. waqas MattJ: I went with a whitelist of attribute values, CSS keys and values
  583. MattJ Sanitizing CSS is not easy
  584. Zash Throw out CSS but have some predefined list of classes
  585. Zash {fg,bg}-$colorname if you want that kind of thing
  586. waqas So, I don't think the implementations are really paying attention to the spec's exact langauge…
  587. jonasw nice, one week away and still the same discussion <3. I was afraid I would be missing the key part :)
  588. Wiktor Also remember while list of protocol schemes so that <a href="javascript:... is unsafe
  589. waqas Wiktor: That too
  590. waqas (as part of allowed attribute values for a.href)
  591. waqas But really, I expect language lawyering in a XEP to have exactly zero impact on the security in the wild.
  592. Link Mauve waqas, the specification is currently quite unclear about the possible attacks on web clients.
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  594. Link Mauve It should state what every web dev should know wrt user input, but it doesn’t currently.
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  596. zinid jonasw: nah, I just resurrected it here :) /troll
  597. Wiktor Also enabling strict Content Security Policy mitigates a lot of these attacks, including script injection
  598. Link Mauve Yeah, that should be part of the security considerations.
  599. Link Mauve But that header obviously didn’t exist back in 2003.
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  622. lovetox omg im here
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  687. zinid "As for me; I recently moved from XMPP to matrix, mostly because I couldn't get XMPP to work reliably on ios, with my server"
  688. zinid citation from reddit
  689. zinid is everything bad on ios?
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  691. ThurahT yes.
  692. SamWhited ios is fine, the clients are just terrible as far as I can tell. People complain because it kills TCP connections aggressively, but we should be tolerating that anyways.
  693. zinid yeah...
  694. SamWhited Although, does anything actually describe how reconnect behavior should work with XMPP? That might make a nice informational XEP.
  695. zinid there is a more fundamental problem
  696. Zash SamWhited: :´(
  697. zinid ios assumes your application to run as little as possible
  698. zinid so you almost always in "push" mode
  699. zinid and we have problems with IQs here
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  702. zinid the solution is to implement A/V (jingle, sip, no matter) and then ios will allow you to run in background :)
  703. Zash Suppose you could do BOSH with high timeouts.
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  705. pep. zinid, that seems like a win/win, for users and devs :P
  706. SamWhited but then you'd have to implement BOSH, and that way lies madness.
  707. zinid pep.: yes, however "voip certification" was quite notorious in apple store
  708. zinid dunno how it's now
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  710. pep. I see
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  716. zinid "For me the biggest advantage that Matrix gives over XMPP is the very simple JSON based communication over plain HTTP"
  717. zinid this reddit thread is brilliant
  718. pep. Nice :)
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  729. SamWhited That is an advantage of Matrix, regardless of how complicated that all is under the hood it makes it way easier for most developers to get up and running. We can scorn it all we want, but it's a valid reason that a lot of people would chose to use something else.
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  735. Zash Without a TCP socket, what's left of XMPP? You basically have to become a stateless HTTP-like thing and then we're competing againtst something that is that already.
  736. SamWhited I'm not suggesting we need to change the protocol or anything, just that pretending that advantages our competitors have aren't advantages isn't helpful.
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  738. Zash I'd like to strongly object to the statement that iOS is fine. // FOSS person who wants to be in control
  739. zinid SamWhited: we have BOSH 😁
  740. Zash As a server dev, I'm not sure what madness lies in the direction of BOSH
  741. Zash Works fine afaik and negates the need for 198
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  743. Wiktor Zinid, just for a little bit of context this is written by a Matrix developer: "For me the biggest advantage that Matrix gives over XMPP is the very simple JSON based communication over plain HTTP. XMPP on the other hand is complex XML."
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  745. Wiktor The entire thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacytoolsIO/comments/678xfm/xmpp_vs_matrix_could_someone_explain_me_the/
  746. zinid Zash: there are several bug reports in ejabberd bugtracker and I have no idea how to fix them because the logic is very complicated (there is some mess with how to handle out of order or duplicates)
  747. SamWhited It's true. I don't especially like JSON or think it was the right tool for the job, but we have a culture that ignores the end user or developer point of view and only thinks about the experts designing the protocols point of view for whatever reasson. XML *is* too complex, to the point where the XMPP specs have to use a restricted subset of it.
  748. zinid Wiktor: ah, ok
  749. zinid Wiktor: we should have our spy on Reddit then 😀
  750. ralphm I mentioned this before and I think most agree: it is not about the actual wire protocol, but about libraries.
  751. Zash ralphm: Sounds true enough. Even SOAP is probably fine if the libs hide it from you :)
  752. zinid Lol
  753. SamWhited Indeed.
  754. Zash And yeah, trying to write your own lib from scratch when you actually want to make a client is not a recipie for a good time
  755. ralphm Right
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  757. Zash Question is, is it better to take a tool that doesn't have what you need and hack those things on, or take a tool that has too much and disable features in it?
  758. ralphm Not sure. Somebody asked me if it was a good idea to build a chat system on MQTT. My response: if you don't mind inventing your own chat semantics from scratch.
  759. SamWhited On an unrelated note, I just gave an XMPP intro or overview sort of talk to my office, which was fun.
  760. ralphm Yay
  761. SamWhited (we do a Wednesday lunc-and-learn sort of thing and today was my day to present)
  762. SamWhited lunch-and-learn, even.
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  766. Guus Sam, do you have some sort of template for that? Either to reproduce, or to distill in a blogpost or intro article or something.
  767. SamWhited Guus: not really, you can steal my slides if you want (warning, the PDFs are out of date): git@bitbucket.org:SamWhited/xmpp-intro-slides.git
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  769. SamWhited But I never try to make presentation slides work well on their own; I probably should
  770. zinid ralphm: people indeed resort to using hand made chats because they think it's easier to write from scratch instead of fiddling with existing tools/libraries
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  772. Zash Also don't underestimate the siren song of NIH
  773. ralphm SamWhited: I made these a while ago: https://ralphm.net/publications/xmpp_intro/#/
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  775. ralphm zinid: writing a chat system is easy. Writing a good one is incredibly hard. In any language or protocol.
  776. SamWhited ralphm: oh nice! mind if I borrow from that?
  777. ralphm Totally, you have the source right there
  778. zinid ralphm: I understand that 😀
  779. SamWhited Thanks; I want to go back through and remove some of the XEPs I talk about (which were tailored for the same presentation for HipChat but which others probably don't care about) and add some of the bigger ones for common chat features.
  780. SamWhited So I might steal your bullets for Jingle/MUC/etc.
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  782. Guus Nice, ralphm
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  786. SamWhited I don't have my login on me to update the PDF of mine, but do have my SSH key so I just lazily comitted it to version control like a bad person: https://bitbucket.org/SamWhited/xmpp-intro-slides/src/f4e4c6fe52afd5783f8444325e69b2520fd02514/slides.pdf?at=master&fileviewer=file-view-default
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  796. dwd Currently at Surevine, we have two guys working on XMPP clients (of sorts), and neither is touching XML.
  797. dwd Well. Almost not, anyway.
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  799. Guus You make 'm work in the office at 10:27pm while the rest of you are at home? Harsh.
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  824. Arc SamWhited: where you working these days?
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  830. SamWhited Arc: Cloudflare
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