(needing to break the doors to a locked building, K9 reminds: you are in a car. cars can go through doors)
Ge0rG
Guus: sorry, I wasn't sure whether you were there.
Guus
I wasn't here :)
Guus
nor do I break into buildings using a car. :)
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Kev
How do you do it?
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Guus
Have you seen Mission Impossible, that scene where he drops in on a rope through a shaft?
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zinid
> I don't do anything related to XMPP anymore
I don't think it's acceptable for a council member though
zinid
that's why we lose reality and don't understand what users/customers want
Ge0rG
ralphm, SamWhited: it would be great to link your presentations from https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SCAM/Material
ralphm
Ge0rG: do it
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Ge0rG
ralphm: is there a timestamp / place-of-presentation for your slide deck? Also, why is it sometimes scrolling to the right and sometimes to the bottom?
Ge0rG
...and sometimes diagonally?!
zinid
Ge0rG: that for you not to get bored
Ge0rG
Ah, a second attempt made me realize that it's a kind of chapter structure
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Guus
good idea Ge0rG, thanks.
Guus
zinid: I think what Sam ment is that he's not doing anything related to XMPP in his day-job.
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zinid
Guus: so he doesn't depend financially
jonasw
which is ... a good thing, right?
Ge0rG
I've always dreamed of getting paid for doing XMPP.
Guus
which is kind of irrelevant, I'd say.
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Guus
Ge0rG: make it so!
zinid
I disagree here, it's a bad thing
Ge0rG
Yesterday I was in a pitch presentation for a large project tender, and had a list of my CVEs on a slide (some of which are very XMPP-related). the customer asked whether I collaborated on those and was really surprised that I was the one who actually researched them.
zinid
it's easy to say "hey, let's deprecate everything" when you're not responsible for anything
Ge0rG
zinid: I think that most people in here actually attempt to make XMPP better.
zinid
Ge0rG: well, then you need to try harder :) because xmpp is degrading
Ge0rG
And there are horrible things in XMPP that well deserve to get deprecated. I'm just not sure if XHTML-IM is one of them.
jonasw
zinid, you don’t need to do XMPP in your day-job to have incentive to make things right.
zinid
jonasw: but I still think that there are more incentives if you do that job
zinid: actually, if you are getting paid for XMPP related work, this is adding bias to your opinion, making it potentially worse for XMPP.
jonasw
zinid, hm, that’s different for different people I suppose.
Guus
not getting paid to do something can also avoid being pressured into something that's commercially interesting, but affects the larger community badly.
jonasw
I’m more with Ge0rG on this
Guus
so, I think it's good to have a nice mix of people in here :)
Ge0rG
a MIX of people?
zinid
Ge0rG: bias is good actually, and we should rely on consensus
Guus
Ge0rG: d'oh!
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Ge0rG
zinid: are you paid to say that?
zinid
Ge0rG: nice try ;)
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Kev
I think you want interested, intelligent, knowledgeable and responsible people, and whether they're paid for XMPP or not isn't the most important thing.
jonasw
I agree
Kev
You can have a ludicrous bias with or without being paid.
Kev
And you can be disinterested or not particularly knowledgeable in XMPP despite being paid for it.
Wiktor
Maybe let's not take this too extremes but there is a difference when someone runs a business critical system on top of XMPP vs hobby projects. Not to say hobby projects are bad, I'm using them daily, but depending on XMPP also gives unique perspective that is not to be ignored.
jonasw
Wiktor, if you’re like me: I’m more invested in my hobby projects than in my dayjob.
Wiktor
Yeah, but do you want xmpp to be only hobbyists network?
jonasw
not necessarily, but the use-cases are the same, no matter who’s running the development, aren’t they?
Zash
Is it an either-or?
Ge0rG
jonasw: sorry to hear that. We are hiring :P
jonasw
Ge0rG, I know
jonasw
you have been taken into consideration, but I’m waiting for the offer of the local company ;-)
Wiktor
Zash: it is not but it's important to hear both sides, if you had hobbyists only in XSF that'd be dangerous IMO
jonasw
Wiktor, sure, but it shouldn’t in any way be a criteria for or against council membership.
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Wiktor
jonasw: yes, definitely not, especially if Sam is already evangelizing XMPP, but I hope not everyone in the council is doing xmpp as a side project, that'd be... Almost like matrix! ;)
zinid
are there any guys in council who actually get paid?
zinid
ah, Kev
Ge0rG
zinid: paid for being on council? Or for working on XMPP?
zinid
working on xmpp
Ge0rG
I once got two days off for attending Summit, but it required some discussing with my boss.
Wiktor
zinid: you're not running for a member? you'd be a perfect 10th man ( https://movies.stackexchange.com/questions/12616/ )
Ge0rG
Wiktor: that sounds like emergency law or law of war.
zinid
lol, I don't know what membership gives me except some boring beuracracy stuff (like polling)
Ge0rG
zinid: it's like with political elections. If you don't vote, you have no right to complain about the people who got elected and their actions.
Ge0rG
Okay, Russia is probably different in that regard :>
zinid
lol
zinid
and it's so hard to elect a council in a more democratic way? why one would be a member for that?
Wiktor
Ge0rG: I've heard voices that software development is similar to warfighting: https://youtu.be/2u0sNRO-QKQ?t=34m32s
> I think you want interested, intelligent, knowledgeable and responsible people
Guus
all feats combined in a person? *quietly revokes candidacy*
Link Mauve
“09:42:25 zinid> […] I don't think it's acceptable for a council member though”, I’m not doing anything XMPP-related at $dayjob either, it probably reduces the conflicts of interest, but I don’t think people who are doing it are bad either, it’s just different perspectives.
Guus
and it's good to have a mix of different perspectives.
Zash
This.
Link Mauve
“10:58:57 Wiktor> […] I hope not everyone in the council is doing xmpp as a side project, that'd be... Almost like matrix! ;)”, what do you mean by that? Just like jonasw I am generally more interested in my side projects (otherwise I’d do something else with my free time ^^), even though I have to be at work eight hours a day.
Link Mauve
“11:07:27 Ge0rG> zinid: it's like with political elections. If you don't vote, you have no right to complain about the people who got elected and their actions.”, I strongly disagree on this, when no choices are proposed to you, that’s not an election and you have full rights to complain before, during and after that simulacre.
Kev
> not necessarily, but the use-cases are the same, no matter who’s running the development, aren’t they?
Very much not.
Wiktor
Link Mauve: I mean that for a healthy project you probably need some kind of push to a business success, it's like "analysis paralysis", sometimes you need to make things pragmatic. Don't get me wrong I also spend a lot of time polishing my side projects but the best approach is a balanced approach :)
Kev
zinid: Of the people currently on Council, at least three currently are paid for XMPP work, and one other was in the past.
Zash
Kev: Wouldn't it vary depending on what they are doing?
Kev
Zash: I don't think so. I think hobbyists don't tend to address some of the requirements that are not-fun, in the general case.
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Kev
In principle a hobbyist might do such things, but it's not tremendously likely.
zinid
agreed, and we have examples for this
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zinid
also, bussiness tends to make things faster because of financial pressure
zinid
for example we in p1 had push support since 2008 or so, while XSF still didn't produce anything meaningful
Ge0rG
...to hack things together in a more or less working way
Link Mauve
zinid, from what I’ve seen, when there is pressure to make something, a business will abandon its principles and hack something which is most likely harmful to the long term.
Kev
I don't see why 'hack something in' and 'harmful long term' have to be linked.
Zash
Don't be evil.
Link Mauve
We’ve consciously done development that was going to be impossible to upstream next, just because a customer wanted it fast.
Kev
Hacking something in that's not long-term suitable is actually a good way of getting experience and feeding into a 'correct' fix.
Link Mauve
Kev, sure, but when we have the time we prototype something and then do it the correct way.
Link Mauve
Not spending time polishing the prototype.
pep.
Zash, No bullshit, since 1999
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Guus
did anyone take minutes during yesterdays board meeting?
Guus
ah, Edwin fixed the logs
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Guus
People, to get some feel of who's interested in joining us in Brussels for Summit 22 and/or FOSDEM, I'd appreciate if you guys sign up on the corresponding wiki pages: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 and FOSDEM_2018
Guus
this will help SCAM to get an indication of the amount of people + required housing etc.
Guus
also, thoughts on content, please, share!
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Guus
(copy and pasting is hard. Here's the proper FOSDEM 2018 wiki page link: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2018 )
Ge0rG
It would be great to have a discussion of what's broken in XMPP, but I'm not sure I can attend
Guus
We'll do proper announcements on the mailing lists soon.
Guus
Ge0rG: in the interest of perception: let's have a discussion on fixes. :)
Ge0rG
Guus: we can't discuss fixes before having a consensus on the problems, right?
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Guus
Sure. I'm just suggesting to word it differently. Starting off in a negative frame will likely hurt.
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Ge0rG
Guus: "Making XMPP ready for the next decade"?
Guus
"You're an ass!" vs "You'd be more awesome if you'd ...."
Ge0rG
Though "Making XMPP ready for the last decade" would be technically more accurate.
jonasw
.oO(previous decade rather)
Ge0rG
jonasw: ✋
Guus
Guys, don't want to sound like anyone's dad (or project lead, or scrum master) but I think that funny-yet-negative remarks can annoy/upset some people - even while they're not intended to do so. Let's try to keep things on the + side of things.
jonasw
Guus, I agree
Guus
there's a distinct negative vibe that we really should try to get rid of.
Guus
I'm not blaming you guys specifically at all, but it's the little stuff like this that I think we can all improve on.
Ge0rG
Guus: your scrum dad attitude is much appreciated.
Guus
Thank you. I shall be organizing retrospectives soon.
jonasw
so I need to figure out whether I want to go to that summit
jonasw
I do want, in some way, but stress
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jonasw
(would also be an excellent use for my remaining vacation day)
Guus
so you need to figure out how you can make it :)
jonasw
kindof
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Guus
jonasw: some employers will cover some of the attendance, when asked
jonasw
Guus, I’m not *that* employed yet (just a student)
Guus
who's in charge of your vacation day budget then?
Guus
(apart from yourself :P )
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Guus
attending stuff like this is an excellent way to improve various skills that can-be-defined-in-a-way-that-suits-your-vaction-day-decision-maker-best ;)
Guus
also: it's good fun :)
Guus
ugh, 13:30 and I still need to get started with work
jonasw
Guus, sure, employer, but I work like 8h/week due to being a student.
jonasw
I doubt that they would cover any conference based on that
jonasw
(which also means that vacation day == vacation week for me)
Guus
I see
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Ge0rG
jonasw: you might get funding from your university.
Ge0rG
jonasw: depends on the budget situation of course, but it might be possible. At my former institute, that would probably have worked if I made a presentation there.
jonasw
Ge0rG, I’m not really close to any department, so that’d be kind of out-of-the-blue there
jonasw
funding also isn’t the issue for now, I need to figure out whether I want to stay at a hotel and all that
jonasw
I usually don’t want that
Ge0rGhas a large collection of hotel giveaway pens
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Guus
jonasw: we'll likely arrange for a group discount, in which you'll have your own room, against a reduced price.
jonasw
as I said, budget is not necessarily an issue. the circumstances of a hotel (or other non-home accomodation, I really like my own bed) stay are.
Guus
jonasw: that, I cannot change :) If it's any comfort: last years hotel was pretty nice!
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Guus
dwd, could you re-join open_chat? We've deployed that XMPP parse PR there
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vanitasvitae
Looks like my xmpp-wiki account became victim to the death of the server. Who can I contact for a new account?
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Ge0rG
vanitasvitae: me or Guus for example
Ge0rG
vanitasvitae: just say your anticipated user name and email address in here :)
vanitasvitae
Ah, I'll ask Guus, since he's in my roster :D
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jjrh
Has anyone worked with broadsoft's UC (unified communications) platform? My understanding it it's all XMPP but finding much about it - like what XEP's they support - hasn't been easy
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jjrh
actually this should probably be asked in operators - sorry
Link Mauve
Arc, arc, could you share the sources of your Prosody flyer with SCAM (and us)? I’d like to translate it to French and distribute it at an upcoming event.
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Arc
youre referring to http://www.sheut.net/xmpp_guide_2017.pdf ?
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Link Mauve
Yes, this one.
Arc
if so change the end to _1.svg and _2.svg for the two sides, tho im not certain that's the best source format
Arc
the pdf might be better
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Link Mauve
Did you create it directly in SVG?
Arc
inkscape yea
Arc
then saved it to pdf, and used a command line tool to combine the two pages for printing
Link Mauve
Perfect, it works fine in Inkscape!
jjrh
maybe throw on https://check.messaging.one/index.php to test?
jjrh
oh I guess xmpp.net directs you there
Arc
we're less than an hour before GCI is announced
Guus
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SCAM/Material <-- Arc's pdf was already in there, but please, add source files if available.
Arc
its possible we wont be in this year, which frees up my winter considerably
Guus
did we even apply for GCI?
Arc
no but copyleft games did, and we always have XMPP tasks
Guus
ah, cool
Arc
Link Mauve: can you update your diecut sticker template for the new logo?
Guus
got to pick up the kids, ttyl
Link Mauve
Arc, which one?
Guus
Link Mauve, maybe delete it and use https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/xmpp.org-theme/static/images/xmpp-logo.svg instead?
Guus
having a canonical version is good :)
Link Mauve
Right.
Guus
I'll update the SCAM repo (still points to your site)
Arc
Link Mauve: Die-cut logo (roughly 2x2 inch)
Take an image of the logo, like the one on https://linkmauve.fr/svg/xmpp.svg
Guus
Arc: I just replaced that link
Guus
really got to pick up the kids now :)
Guus
later
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Link Mauve
There, fixed. :)
Link Mauve
I also removed a duplicate for the gradient, it’s the same on both sides so it’s better to have only one.
SamWhited
Guus: if you still want them, I put the slides I used yesterday: https://bitbucket.org/SamWhited/xmpp-intro-slides/downloads/
Arc, your(?) http server doesn't serve over tls :( ✏
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Ge0rG
SamWhited: just noticed a typo on your cloudflare_slides, "Mobile Considerations" is 0286 and not 0268 :)
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SamWhited
oops, thanks
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SamWhited
I should change those anyways; the XEPs I used were for the same presentation somewhere else, for more general things where people don't care about any specific XMPP thing I should probably just do big XEPs that are nice fancy features (Jingle, MAM, MUC, etc.)
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Arc
pep.: sheut.net? no it doesnt
Arc
pep.: the server itself supports TLS and runs it for other domains, but not this one.
Arc
and we're NOT in GCI this year.
Ge0rG
Jingle and PubSub. The apogee of XMPP.
pep.
Arc, yeah I've noticed it doesn't
Arc
pep.: congrats, you noticed
Arc
why does it matter to you
pep.
Because there's a link and I wanted to click on it. *compulsive clicker*
pep.
But now that I know it doesn't support tls, there's still the link, but I can't see the other side. sadness
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Guus
SamWhited: a link to your slides were already added to the SCAM repo
SamWhited
Oh, well that link is probably broken now unless you rehosted them somewhere
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Guus
Can you update it please? I'm on mobile mow
Guus
Now
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Guus
Link to the wiki based repo was posted earlier
SamWhited
I don't have any "earlier" because mcabber (unless it was very recently earlier) :(
SamWhited
found it though
SamWhited
oh, that was the right link anyways, it just didn't actually have up-to-date slides in it until just now
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Arc
pep.: you have it set so you can only view TLS?
Arc
tisk, tisk
Arc
now I know how to keep you out of my links :-P
pep.
:(
pep.
I'm not sure I get what people have against TLS
pep.
Arc, I could if I wanted, I just filter them. (manually still, even if httpseverwhere helps, but only on the browser)
Arc
i dont have anything against TLS. its just not automatic, and I don't think every domain warrants it
pep.
I think every public domain should
Arc
well, feel free to do it on your own domains
Arc
i would rather spend the time I would otherwise spend maintaining TLS certs, writing code
pep.
I wouldn't mind taking time and helping you, but I'm sure you know how to do it already :)
Arc
that's not an obsession I have
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Link Mauve
Arc, once it is setup, there is no maintainance.
Arc
if a domain has a xmpp server on it, it gets a TLS cert.
Link Mauve
And if a domain has an HTTP server on it, same, that way everyone is happy. :)
pep.
Arc, why would xmpp require a cert and not http
Arc
Link Mauve: that's complete bullshit. seriously. TLS certs expire. There's a duty to care that they don't expire, and to fix them when the scripts fail to perform as expected. Its a time investment I'm not going to put into every domain I have
pep.
Maybe you haven't heard of the new chap in town, let's encrypt
Arc
pep.: I use lets encrypt. it is not flawless, ive found my scripts for it break about once a year
Zash
It solves *all* problems!!
pep.
Zash, all!
jonasw
I've got monitoring set up for my domains, adding one with tls is O(1), but then again I'm an infrastructure nerd.
Arc
i just spent 3 days fixing a host of domains that it broke on, and because the domains were set to use https only, and because the certs were expired, letsencrypt couldn't renew them without reconfiguring the domains to non-https first
pep.
bootstrap is annoying indeed
Arc
if a domain has a login, or has anything private, sure. if it has xmpp, sure. those are valid reasons.
jonasw
I've never seen letsencrypt break though, with lego.
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pep.
But you should serve on 80 and 443 anyway, you can redirect 80 to 443, but have /.well-known/acme-challenge go to whatever folder letsencrypt requires
Arc
pep.: again, this is your obsession, not mine.
SamWhited
If you're really this concerned about a little personal domain that someone else rusn I question the validity of your threat model.
pep.
SamWhited, it's just one part of it
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Arc
sheut.net is my personal LAN domain. www.sheut.net <http://www.sheut.net> is used for sharing tiny files on non-indexed URLs
Arc
www.sheut.net <http://www.sheut.net> gives a 403 Forbidden
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Arc
but if you really want to get into a infrastucture pissing contest, I'd love to get into it on IPv6 :-P
pep.
Sure, I have ip6 at home and at work as well
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Zash
Something something self-hosting DNSSEC, mumble
pep.
But that's not the point here anyway
Arc
i dont host anything unless it has an ipv6 address
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Link Mauve
Arc, it seems to work in IPv6 from here.
Arc
Link Mauve: i would expect as such, since its hosted by he.net
Arc
I have a VPN into he.net too, with native ipv6
pep.
You mean you have native ip6 _and_ the vpn?
Arc
i have native ipv6 at he.net and at home. but with the vpn i have layer 3 native ipv6 everywhere i go
Arc
if I'm at starbucks I have ipv6
pep.
Anyway, my concern about tls is that every one who enables it help "cover the tracks" (or however you want to call it) for any other concerned person.✎
pep.
Anyway, my concern about tls is that every one who enables it helps "cover the tracks" (or however you want to call it) for any other concerned person. ✏
Arc
then dont load my links :-P
Link Mauve
Another reason is to avoid an evil MitM from seeing what we download, or even from tampering with them.
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pep.
Arc, the thing is that it's not just about you
Arc
uh-huh. ok I'm done engaging in this conversation
Arc
im reading up on ALPN API callbacks in openssl this morning
Ge0rG
IT systems have fractal complexity.
jjrh
Arc, you have a 6in4 tunnel or you have a VPN that gives you a native v6 address?
Arc
jjrh: I have a layer 2 VPN into a native dual stack network running in my own server cabinet at he.net
jjrh
ah - nice :)
Arc
my home network is pretty awful, the owner *THINKS* he knows enough to do it, but the IPv4 LAN ip block is 192.169.0.0/16
jjrh
does that play nice on android?
Arc
there are currently 9 active devices on it, 2 of them are printers.
Arc
jjrh: yep. my phone is on it.
jjrh
I like the idea - might look into it myself. Make some things much easier
Arc
the biggest reason is being able to SSH into any system, from any of my systems, anywhere i happen to be
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Arc
my car has native IPv6 wifi
jjrh
Yeah I would use sixxs for that (before it shutdown) haven't got around to configuring a HE tunnel for my laptop yet
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Arc
jjrh: im not sure HE runs that service anymore, but I'm happy to offer a VPN operated on your own physical ARM microserver
jjrh
HE still runs their 6in4 tunnel
Arc
1 IPv4 address, /64 IPv6
Arc
ah cool.
jjrh
https://tunnelbroker.net/ yeah tunnel broker is still live - sixxs died last year
Arc
HE are good people, ive hosted with them for almost a decade now
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jjrh
I still have a subnet from them before I had native v6 at home just haven't configured it for my laptop, and I don't believe the daemon (forget what HE uses - not aiccu) runs on android so a VPN I guess is my only option
jjrh
whats the VPN protocol you're using?
Arc
openvpn
jjrh
ah
Arc
bbiab need to drive
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Zash
> If the UID contained within an <after> or <before> is not present in the archive, the server MUST return an item-not-found error
Has this changed? I distinctly remember that you were to behave as if the ids were outside the range of the archive
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Zash
And when did 'stable' appear?
zinid
> we can't discuss fixes before having a consensus on the problems, right?
we can't reach an agreement on something we almost don't discuss
Arc
zinid: context would be good
zinid
Arc: what context? there are pending topics in the ML where Ge0rG provided some summary, but it's virtually not discussed
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zinid
anyway, since we're done with xhtml-im ranting, can we discuss problems of push notifications finally?
zinid
some devs disagree there should be any pubsub, so the suggestion is to get rid of it
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Arc
zinid: xhtml-im discussion will continue until the XEP is retired with prejudice. the topic has only gone to sleep for X weeks, it will reawaken
Arc
the webchat im working on does not, and will not support it.
zinid
Arc: I don't give a shit actually
Arc
there are simply too many surfaces to protect against
zinid
Arc: I care about other topics
Arc
ok so what topic are you referring to
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zinid
Arc: I already said about the topic
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SamWhited
I am preparing an email to gather requirements for a potential XHTML-IM replacement. Afterwards hopefully we can discuss how the alternative could also be safer.
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Arc
SamWhited: we did a trial on that last year, it was very successful
Arc
media attachments
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ThurahT
why are there cloudflare logos in the scam pdf slides? Is cloudfare a huge sponsor to the xsf?
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SamWhited
I work there and I was the one giving the presentation
Arc
and giving it internally iirc
ThurahT
but cloudflare has nothing to do with the xsf in general?
SamWhited
not as far as I know
ThurahT
ah. Good.
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SamWhited
but yah, putting the place paying for you to be at the conference on your slides is just habit (though in this case I wasn't anywhere, so kind of pointless I guess)
ThurahT
I see. Thanks for clarifying
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Arc
SamWhited: im developing a handshake for an external authentication server, any advice?
SamWhited
Arc: I'm probably not the best person to ask about authentication servers, but sounds fun! :)
Arc
sending a client's connection info, TLS cert when available, and having it take over the SASL component
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Arc
also in-band registration, when supported
SamWhited
That sounds cool; is this to use LDAP or some other directory thing?
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Arc
the idea is its for anything
Arc
allow the service to implement any authentication they want without having to edit the xmpp server, or worse, write their own
SamWhited
Good idea
Arc
OAUTH2 for example, you'll commonly want a custom auth server, even if oauth2 is already available you'll want to customize it
SamWhited
How would you delegate to it? Do servers give you a way to plugin stream features that delegate to another service?
Arc
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0077.html#redirect provides a simple way to send registering clients to a website url. that will need to be tightly linked to the authentication chosen.
Arc
SamWhited: im thinking when the server needs to auth for a user, it gives details to the auth server, which replies with the SASL mechanisms it supports. the existance of the auth server implies in-band registration and SASL are supported in the appropriate places
Arc
im not trying to make it a generic component
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Arc
though on initial connection to the auth server it could reply back with a xmpp feature set it supports.
Arc
i want to keep it simple, tho. not to place undue burden on implementors