XSF Discussion - 2017-11-02

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  117. jonasw

    moparisthebest, huh

  118. jonasw

    thanks for the hint

  119. jonasw

    moparisthebest, I always only saw DKIM_INVALID but I assumed that’s the mailing lists fault

  120. jonasw

    moparisthebest, even though, I can find the key in the DNS without issues?

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  141. dwd

    jonasw, DKIM doesn't really work with mailing lists. It only works if all you do is 1:1 mail.

  142. jonasw

    dwd, I am aware of that.

  143. jonasw

    it’s not that I *want* to do DKIM.

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  161. Ge0rG

    Only three days remaining for Council and Board candidates. Wow.

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  176. jonasw

    I might roll back DKIM. It doesn’t seem to have helped with delivery to google or anyone anyways.

  177. jonasw

    and it only casues damage

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  179. goffi

    I'm wondering about the MAM last call, do we have implementations of MAM for Pubsub? At least one we made for SàT Pubsub, but any other one?

  180. dwd

    goffi, Not that I know of. And our on MIX is out of date, since it needs the pointless id added.

  181. goffi

    is not needed to have 2 implementations to do a last call on MAM then?

  182. goffi

    actually the one on SàT Pubsub may be outdated to.

  183. dwd

    goffi, That's Final, not Draft, isn't it?

  184. goffi

    ah maybe

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  215. jonasw

    in retrospect, DKIM-Spam-Issues probably also explain some of the XHTML-IM discussion :/

  216. jonasw

    iteam, can we configure the ML so that it mangles DKIM-signed messages in a way which avoids incorrect signatures?

  217. jonasw

    some people don’t have a choice on whether they send DKIM signatures

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  245. moparisthebest

    jonasw, if you want to review component/protocol etc it's to a working state, pre-compiled .apk here or compile it yourself: https://github.com/moparisthebest/Conversations/releases

  246. jonasw

    a compiled build is not really useful to review something, is it?

  247. jonasw

    I can’t into mobile development, at all

  248. moparisthebest

    it links to both the mobile code and the component

  249. moparisthebest

    I think additionally the component needs to advertise in disco that it's an 'echo component' and that should be good enough

  250. Zash

    Which kind of review?

  251. Zash

    And of what?

  252. moparisthebest

    any kind and of any of it :)

  253. jonasw

    moparisthebest, frankly, I’d prefer a written specfiication over having to read java code.

  254. jonasw

    but I’m at work anyways

  255. moparisthebest

    the specification is there too in the readme, such as it is https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-echo-self

  256. jonasw

    ok, might take a look this evening

  257. moparisthebest

    also the entire component is 130 lines of java code including comments

  258. moparisthebest

    I wasted about 4 hours trying to get sleekxmpp or slixmpp to work for this and failed...

  259. moparisthebest

    anyway being able to seamlessly SMS through my phone from gajim is sweet, or any other xmpp client supporting carbons

  260. jonasw

    I still find your (ab-)use of carbons... non-satisfactory

  261. jonasw

    this is a hack for something which deserves a proper solution.

  262. Zash

    Does this even make sense?

  263. moparisthebest

    I wouldn't call it a hack, multi-client is useless without carbons anyway, not sure why the component should be made complicated and require registration just to support use without carbons...

  264. jonasw

    it is a hack.

  265. Zash

    Transports being attached to the server is one of the very earliest design decisions in Jabber, so doing this in a non-awkward fashion will be Hard.

  266. moparisthebest

    this is one of the problems with some XMPP specs, instead of solving the simple problem simply, they attempt to solve complicated problems no one actually has yet but might have in the future in a more complicated way

  267. jonasw

    I think it makes sense to have per-user transports if the transport is linked to a hardware token owned by the user (e.g. SMS)

  268. Zash

    moparisthebest: IM is not a simple problem

  269. Zash

    It may look simple, but it's not.

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  272. moparisthebest

    this solves the problem of a client-side sms transport and works perfectly so it seems rather simple and it works

  273. moparisthebest

    and requires no changes to other clients or servers, most importantly

  274. Zash

    "Works" and "Hack" are not mutually exclusive.

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  276. Zash

    Hacks usually work.

  277. moparisthebest

    why is relying on other already defined XEPs a hack?

  278. jonasw

    moparisthebest, but doesn’t it strain the server by intentionally sending messages to non-existant domains?

  279. Zash

    Making something hacky that works is a good first step, as it helps understand the problem.

  280. moparisthebest

    nothing stops anyone from making a new XEP that does complicated state management and registration to avoid carbons, it's just useless

  281. moparisthebest

    jonasw, the domain exists

  282. jonasw

    ah, the domain of the "echo" component?

  283. moparisthebest

    it's a standard xmpp domain/component

  284. moparisthebest


  285. moparisthebest

    in fact my pre-compiled apk is pointed to my component running at echo.burtrum.org and works for anyone that can federate to that

  286. moparisthebest

    this should be replaced by discovery and fallback to a hard-coded component, eventually

  287. Zash

    Eh, is it wise to publish a thing that would leak all your SMSes to you?

  288. moparisthebest

    as a super alpha with a warning about it? sure

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  290. jonasw

    Zash, is it wise to install a random apk from a random persons github page? ;-)

  291. moparisthebest

    I wouldn't, I'd compile it myself pointed to my own echo server instance :)

  292. moparisthebest

    I also just found out about this today: https://github.com/SilenceIM/Silence/pull/390 the SMS app is planning on adding a transport-over-xmpp option hehe

  293. Zash


  294. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, what kind of issue did you have with slixmpp?

  295. Link Mauve

    Did you start from the echo_component example?

  296. moparisthebest

    yes Link Mauve it alternatively would return strings or parsed element structures but I could never get them back into a Message that I could .send etc, my 3 failed attempts are here: https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-echo-self/tree/master/failed_python_attempts

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  300. Link Mauve

    Strings or parsed element structures?

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  303. moparisthebest

    so depending what I tried the <message> in the <forwarded> block would either be an Element or just a string

  304. Link Mauve

    Some of your code reads like it should work.

  305. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, you need to load the xep_0297 plugin in order to get a Message, probably.

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  307. moparisthebest

    Link Mauve, yea I did that too check xmpp-echo-self.forward.py

  308. moparisthebest

    xmpp-echo-self.py doesn't use forward and works with sleekxmpp but not slixmpp, but then I decided to go with forwards anyhow

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  310. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, the usual way is:

  311. Link Mauve

    forwarded_message = msg['forwarded']['stanza'] forwarded_message['to'] = your_user forwarded_message.send()

  312. Link Mauve

    From what I understand you want to do.

  313. moparisthebest

    Link Mauve, yea so sometimes I'd get an error on forwarded_message['to'] = your_user like 'str does not support .attr()' and sometimes I'd get an error on forwarded_message.send() like 'Element does not have .send() method'

  314. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, that’s if you don’t have the plugin loaded.

  315. Link Mauve

    (Yes, slixmpp defaults to '' for unknown attributes…)

  316. Link Mauve

    (Yes, I hate it.)

  317. Link Mauve

    (And my branch changing that broke a ton of code in poezio alone, so I didn’t try to go forward.)

  318. Link Mauve

    (I want to test aioxmpp, if it managed to be less non-typed than slixmpp.)

  319. Link Mauve

    (But what I want the most, is a proper Rust library.)

  320. Link Mauve

    (xmpp-parsers is based on the opposite idea from slixmpp’s, types are good and you should use them, always.)

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  322. Link Mauve

    (But it only parses and serialises stanzas and payloads, it isn’t an XMPP library per se.)

  323. jonasw

    Link Mauve, aioxmpp is rather strongly typed

  324. jonasw


  325. Link Mauve

    I should try to move poezio to it, someday.

  326. jonasw

    sounds like a plan ;-)

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  331. moparisthebest

    yes Link Mauve completely agree I wanted to do it in rust but not quite there yet :)

  332. moparisthebest

    anyway I spent a solid 4 hours trying different things with sleek and then slix then gave up so meh...

  333. moparisthebest

    would have tried aioxmpp but jonasw said no component support yet

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  335. jonasw

    I didn’t say "yet" ;-)

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  337. moparisthebest

    sorry sorry :P

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  339. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, both xmpp and tokio-xmpp support components, fyi.

  340. moparisthebest

    anyway Guus whack is nice and simple, typed but also super easy to just grab / manipulate XML directly, I like it :)

  341. Link Mauve

    I personally added that. :)

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  344. Link Mauve

    The only constraint is that you can’t use both a client and a component when you import them in your project, it’s a feature which toggles the component or client thing.

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  347. moparisthebest

    still need a new version of xmpp released though, current doesn't compile with stable rust, had to use git for my client thing

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  351. Guus

    Wait what?

  352. Guus

    Someone mentioned me?

  353. moparisthebest

    yep, whack compliment

  354. Guus


  355. Guus

    Didn't work on that for ages though 😀

  356. Guus

    Also mostly code from Jive

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  358. moparisthebest

    everything doesn't need to be developed for latest node.js in the last week to be good :)

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  360. Guus

    Happy to hear it's helpful for you.

  361. dwd

    moparisthebest, You're still developing on last week's node.js? Luddite.

  362. Ge0rG

    My node.js is from last month!

  363. Ge0rG

    Okay, that was a lie. My node.js is 4.4.7 LTS, which is from mid-2016.

  364. moparisthebest

    wow that's like 6 versions behind

  365. moparisthebest

    8 is LTS now

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  367. Link Mauve

    I had an update to 9.0 like yesterday, you’re all so out of date…

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  369. moparisthebest

    node has to be the only software where LTS means like "ok I guess we'll support this version for 3 months"

  370. Zash


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  410. tux

    Sounds like node.js is the software pendant to memory manufacturers. 🙃

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  422. Zash

    What should happen if you send <presence type="error"/> (with nothing else)?

  423. zinid

    should be dropped by the server?

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  425. dwd

    Zash, A little window should pop up telling you you have too much time on your hands.

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  427. Zash

    > Discarding unhandled error presence (<nil>, unknown condition) from c2s: <presence type='error'>

  428. dwd

    Zash, I preferred my error message.

  429. Ge0rG

    The words "time" and "hands" should be replaced by the respective Emoji..

  430. Zash


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  434. dwd

    I just tried it with Openfire. A world of nothing happened.

  435. zinid

    same for ejabberd :)

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  442. moparisthebest

    https://github.com/openspace42/aenigma "aenigma provisions a fully functional and secure out of the box XMPP server you can get running today."

  443. moparisthebest

    never heard of that before, looks like bash script to set up ejabberd? odd

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  450. zinid

    there are also nginx and sslh in the bundle ;)

  451. moparisthebest

    I only saw it because dev emailed a question to the sslh mailing list :)

  452. Flow

    which clients do support "xmpp over ssh"? Or do you need an ssh-client setting up a tunnel?

  453. Flow

    ahh s/ssh/ssl/

  454. moparisthebest

    xep-368 style? conversations does

  455. moparisthebest

    I had a list of implementations in the email hang on...

  456. dwd

    moparisthebest, He didn't mean that.

  457. moparisthebest

    oh got it

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  494. Alex

    we need more board & council candidates here ;-) https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2017#

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  496. Ge0rG

    I might volunteer

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  498. Alex

    Ge0rG: go, go , go

  499. moparisthebest

    what happens if there aren't enough candidates actually

  500. Ge0rG

    I've already started my election page, but had to leave home.

  501. jonasw

    I was kind of hoping that we’d have more candidates than seats so that the election actually gets interesting :/

  502. Alex

    moparisthebest: :-S we did not have such a case in the entire career of the XSF yet. Would have to lookup the bylaws then or apply myself ;-)

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  505. Alex

    in the last years applications for board and council always came in close to the deadline

  506. Ge0rG

    Didn't we have situations in the past where the number of candidates matched the seats, making the election rather pointless?

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  508. Kev

    It's not entirely pointless.

  509. Kev

    You don't get elected automatically you, still need to get elected.

  510. Ge0rG

    Not entirely, no

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  512. Ge0rG

    I imagine that my council application will be rather controversial

  513. jonasw

    that’s a good thing, right?

  514. moparisthebest

    not that Ge0rG guy...

  515. moparisthebest

    haha <3

  516. Zash

    Make XMPP Great Again!

  517. moparisthebest

    I'd buy that hat

  518. Zash

    Tell the SCAM team

  519. jonasw

    well played

  520. Ge0rG

    That motto is kind of burned. Besides, it should be "Make Jabber Great Again"...

  521. Zash


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  524. Ge0rG

    I realized my error some time ago, but then Drumpf was elected already, doing bad things, so...

  525. moparisthebest

    oh right, no I'd vote against you if you ran on a slogan with Jabber in it

  526. Zash

    "Make Jabber Ours Again"

  527. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: why so?

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  529. Zash

    Ge0rG: For your own protection (against trademark infrigement)(?)

  530. moparisthebest


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  532. Ge0rG

    I know my trademarks

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  581. moparisthebest

    zinid, so the sslh question guy is saying ejabberd will support '368 next version, in what way(s) ?

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  583. zinid

    moparisthebest: what is 368

  584. zinid

    I don't remember all those stupid xep numbers

  585. Zash

    -xep 368

  586. Bunneh

    Zash: XEP-0368: SRV records for XMPP over TLS (Standards Track, Draft, 2017-03-09) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0368.html

  587. zinid

    it supports it already for outgoing server connections

  588. Zash

    "Legacy SSL on port 5223 but with SRV records"

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  590. moparisthebest

    presumably it already supported legacy ssl on port 5223 for c2s

  591. moparisthebest

    but what else?

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  593. zinid

    in theory it should support sni, but it doesn't

  594. zinid

    sni for incoming connections

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