XSF Discussion - 2017-11-04

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  149. marc Hey, is somebody working on a XEP for user invitation? (see mod_invite of prosody)
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  157. Flow marc, MUC invitation? or "roster"? or?
  158. Ge0rG marc: have a look at [xep 379]
  159. Flow I was just about to mention that :)
  160. Flow https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0379.html
  161. marc It doesn't create an account on a server, right?
  162. marc It is just for adding a contact to the roster if I understand it correctly
  163. marc mod_invite generates an invitation token and let's an user create an account on a non-public server
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  166. marc s/let's/lets
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  170. marc Ge0rG, correct? Just noticed that it's your XEP :)
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  172. Ge0rG marc: it's right.
  173. Ge0rG marc: I'd like to leverage it for account invitations though
  174. Ge0rG no idea how
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  176. marc I'm working on a POC for account invitations and would like to make a XEP for that
  177. marc Invitations are too "complicated" at the moment IMO, at least for the normal "whatsapp user" :)
  178. Ge0rG marc: so true
  179. marc It shouldn' take more than a minute to create an account and start a conversation
  180. marc Is somebody on 34c3 for some hacking? Will there be a XSF/XMPP assembly?
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  186. Ge0rG marc: I think so, there should be something in the SCAM section on the wiki
  187. marc Ge0rG, yes, thanks!
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  213. Ge0rG marc: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/34C3
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  215. jonasw marc, I agree
  216. jonasw I’d be very interested in your ideas of the flow
  217. jonasw ideally there would be something with a token in the URI which allows users to register immediately with a server from within the client even if the server doesn’t allow registrations otherwise.
  218. Ge0rG what jonasw said.
  219. Ge0rG like a PARS token, but for IBR instead of for presence subscription
  220. Ge0rG bonus points for allowing the token to also function as a PARS
  221. jonasw yupp
  222. jonasw I’d also like to have Pre-Authenticated MUC Join :)
  223. jonasw (for members-only MUCs)
  224. Ge0rG jonasw: what's wrong with mediated invitations?
  225. jonasw when I don’t know the JID yet?
  226. Ge0rG oh
  227. Ge0rG jonasw: any reason why PARS can't do it for MUC join presence?
  228. jonasw Ge0rG, members-only, you’d have to add the user
  229. pep. You'd still have to add the user somehow right? To generate the token
  230. jonasw pep., no, you generate the token and sedn the token to the user via an out-of-band mean. The whole point is that at the time of invitation, the user might not yet have an XMPP account.
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  232. pep. Yeah I got that part. nvm I didn't get Ge0rG's sentence in the first place
  233. pep. I'd also be interested in whatever this leads to :)
  234. Guus One day for the deadline to apply for Board and Council. The current candidacy list is to short! If you're interested, please sign up now!
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  236. Link Mauve You mean sign up tomorrow?
  237. marc jonasw, done ;)
  238. Ge0rG jonasw [13:38]: > Ge0rG, members-only, you’d have to add the user The user adds the token to the join presence and is added instantly
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  240. marc If I have some time these days I'll make a small video of how it works (implemented in Gajim+Conversations)
  241. marc And ejabberd
  242. Ge0rG What's the membership election deadline? I don't want to risk getting kicked out of council because I forgot my membership application
  243. Ge0rG marc: of how what works?
  244. marc Well, still some missing parts and all very hackish but the idea should work very well
  245. marc Ge0rG, the invitation "flow" :D
  246. Ge0rG marc: yay for more "Easy XMPP"!
  247. Guus Ge0rG: November 21st
  248. marc Yes, I would really see "easy xmpp"
  249. Ge0rG made some videos of PARS back then
  250. Ge0rG marc: that's also a category on the wiki
  251. marc Otherwise XMPP will never be accepted by end-users
  252. Ge0rG marc: that's what I'm saying for years now
  253. marc Ge0rG, I guess you'll help me with my XEP and the implementation then ;)
  254. Ge0rG marc: yes I will.
  255. marc Ge0rG, nice :)
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  257. Ge0rG marc: also related https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation
  258. marc Ah cool
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  260. marc QR codes are nice for invitation, I already use it
  261. Ge0rG marc: I think we can extend the http invitation link with an account creation token that allows you to register on a specific server
  262. marc Yes
  263. marc I already have this somehow
  264. marc Afk, Ge0rG looking forward to work with you on this topic :)
  265. Ge0rG I wish I had more time to actually implement things in yaxim
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  270. jonasw Ge0rG, now I get it, right
  271. jonasw requires support by the MUC service
  272. jonasw and PARS needs some more acceptance
  273. Ge0rG jonasw: yes, do you see another way? Additional handshake with the inviting client?
  274. jonasw Ge0rG, no
  275. Ge0rG jonasw: PARS is blocked by lack of private pep storage
  276. jonasw *in prosody
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  278. Ge0rG jonasw: in one of the widely deployed OSS servers
  279. jonasw yes
  280. jonasw I’m also not convinced that PEP is the right place for this.
  281. jonasw I mean to push the topic further soon, I’m still lagging behind from vacation.
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  284. Ge0rG jonasw: whatever works on prosody 0.10 and will convince daniel is fine with me
  285. Ge0rG jonasw: bonus points for solving MUC and account creation invitations in the same track
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  287. jonasw not sure this shouldn’t be different XEPs
  288. jonasw but I think people complained that yet-another-custom-IQ-protocol is not desirabel
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  291. Ge0rG jonasw: as opposed to what?
  292. jonasw private PEP
  293. Ge0rG Right
  294. jonasw I re-read the thread from april
  295. jonasw I think the arguments for private PEP are convincing
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  297. jonasw (it allows easy client-side handling and server integration at the same time)
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  299. jonasw it would be great to have the token in the roster, too.... that’d allow clients to purge all entries created by a certain token
  300. Ge0rG The only issue I have is the "unlimited count" for pars tokens
  301. jonasw unlimited count is fine for me.
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  303. Ge0rG I can live with it, and having it in the roster is a great idea
  304. jonasw lovely roster extensions which break things
  305. jonasw #mix
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  307. jonasw pity people didn’t follow my suggestion for generic roster extensions
  308. jonasw that would be handy now
  309. Ge0rG I wanted to have some identifier for auto added roster items, the token can well be used for that
  310. Flow jonasw, why roster extensions when you can use private PEP?
  311. jonasw different things
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  313. Ge0rG Flow: do you want to duplicate the roster structure in pep?
  314. Flow like a private PEP shadow roster with all you metadata from the extension
  315. Flow Ge0rG, possibly
  316. Flow I'm not 100% decided which approach is better
  317. jonasw Flow, would probably work, yeah. except that you’d really want multiple items in that and PEP services aren’t good at that
  318. Flow but then again, thinks will probably break if you extends the roster
  319. Flow *things
  320. jonasw I doubt that they will
  321. Flow so there is only this approach left
  322. jonasw adding elements in foreign namespaces shouldn’t break things.
  323. jonasw or the approach the MIX people went for
  324. jonasw which is equally bad or even worse
  325. Kev Roster extensions are a sensible thing that we've been talking about for about a decade.
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  328. jonasw Kev, why don’t we have them and why is MIX inventing its own probably not really extensible protocol for that?
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  330. Kev 1) Reasons 2) I'm not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative. MIX is injecting a roster extension.
  331. Ge0rG If we do roster extensions, can't we put MUCs there too?
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  334. jonasw Kev, re 2: right, I was confused I think
  335. Kev Off out, back later.
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  343. Flow jonasw, I think that it will cause a lot of trouble if clients see entities in the roster but don't understand the metadata found in the extension
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  345. Flow or maybe no trouble, but confusion at least
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  347. jonasw Flow, right, for PARS tokens it would be irrelevant though
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  349. Flow jonasw, probably
  350. jonasw for sure.
  351. jonasw it doesn’t do harm if it’s ignored
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  358. Ge0rG Flow: do you think it will also break for normal roster items with extensions, as opposed to things like mix?
  359. marc Ge0rG, my invitation is based on an adhoc command for token generation, the inviter can chosse contacts to be shared
  360. marc these contacts are then added to the roster of the new account
  361. jonasw I am now embarrased that I didn’t think of Ad-Hoc commands.
  362. marc sounds not too complicated to me
  363. marc jonasw, :)
  364. jonasw marc, sounds like a solid approach
  365. marc jonasw, cool, thanks! So I'm going to further improve my POC
  366. jonasw since the account will be on exactly that server, it can of course handle the presence subcsription, no need for PARS
  367. jonasw lovely
  368. marc yes
  369. jonasw marc, I’ll be happy to proof-read things and guide you through the XEP process.
  370. marc and I think there is no privacy implication
  371. marc since the inviter could send the jids to the invitee later as well
  372. jonasw there may be if the token is lost, in the sense that all contact information which was shared server-side is exposed.
  373. marc yes, until the token expires
  374. marc jonasw, thanks for the offer!
  375. marc but even in this case there is only the information that somebody invited an unknown person and shared some contacts
  376. Ge0rG I think all we need is an opaque token, the server can implement any amount of logic when it's passed on
  377. marc well, shared contacts could be disabled by the provider if this is an issue
  378. Ge0rG And we need a robust out of band mechanism to transport it
  379. marc I use XMPP URI and QR codes at the moment
  380. marc works like a charm
  381. marc this enables me in-app invitation
  382. marc as fallback it generates an URL
  383. Ge0rG Maybe contact sharing should be separated
  384. Ge0rG marc: what's the URI format?
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  386. marc Ge0rG, well, it's not "defined" but something like xmpp:example.com?account;invite_toke=TOKEN
  387. Ge0rG Sounds reasonable
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  389. Ge0rG Could be integrated into the landing page
  390. marc yep, together with the QR code
  391. Ge0rG Might need some information about the inviter, but then that's easy to fake
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  393. marc Well, my idea was, if that's required, that the server provides a simple REST API to gather information about the invitation
  394. marc This could be done via the token as well
  395. marc Well, for the landing page, of course
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  398. marc Information included in the URI would be nice but could be faked
  399. Ge0rG Invitation links from third party systems are opaque as well, so this is not a priority for me. Having a rest API means we need a way to determine the url from the server name, which is not trivial
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  401. marc The landing page and the REST stuff is all optional and out of the scope of this XEP
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  403. marc If the landing page web server is implemented in the xmpp server itself, no REST API etc. is needed
  404. marc Just for the case the landing page uses another service like lighttpd
  405. Ge0rG marc: then the ad hoc command needs a way to find out the landing page link
  406. jonasw can simply be returned in the result IIRC
  407. Ge0rG What happens if I send a "chat" message to the full proxy JID of a MIX participant?
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  419. jonasw Ge0rG, I think it’d behave just like a message sent to the actual JID of a MIX participant, except that it is relayed through the MIX
  420. jonasw cf. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#usecase-user-private-messages
  421. jonasw this appears to contains resource locking logic
  422. marc Ge0rG, yes, the landing page is returned by the adhoc command
  423. jonasw marc, how does the signup work?
  424. jonasw in-band or out-of-band?
  425. marc Ge0rG, the result of the adhoc command is a landing page URL (optional) and a token
  426. Ge0rG I'd just do IBR with an additional field stuffed somewhere
  427. marc jonasw, that's not implemented at the moment but I would like to send a field like a captcha
  428. jonasw IBR itself doesn’t really allow for custom fields
  429. marc really? I thought I've read something about it in the XEP
  430. jonasw ah right
  431. jonasw data forms may be used instead
  432. jonasw lovely
  433. marc :)
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  707. Ge0rG Am I right that with MIX, a MIX-capable user server needs to keep in memory a list of all participants of all MIXes of all its users, online or offline?
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  711. jonasw Ge0rG, why?
  712. jonasw (I don’t think so)
  713. jonasw gotta go
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