XSF Discussion - 2017-11-04

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  149. marc

    Hey, is somebody working on a XEP for user invitation? (see mod_invite of prosody)

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  157. Flow

    marc, MUC invitation? or "roster"? or?

  158. Ge0rG

    marc: have a look at [xep 379]

  159. Flow

    I was just about to mention that :)

  160. Flow


  161. marc

    It doesn't create an account on a server, right?

  162. marc

    It is just for adding a contact to the roster if I understand it correctly

  163. marc

    mod_invite generates an invitation token and let's an user create an account on a non-public server

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  166. marc


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  170. marc

    Ge0rG, correct? Just noticed that it's your XEP :)

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  172. Ge0rG

    marc: it's right.

  173. Ge0rG

    marc: I'd like to leverage it for account invitations though

  174. Ge0rG

    no idea how

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  176. marc

    I'm working on a POC for account invitations and would like to make a XEP for that

  177. marc

    Invitations are too "complicated" at the moment IMO, at least for the normal "whatsapp user" :)

  178. Ge0rG

    marc: so true

  179. marc

    It shouldn' take more than a minute to create an account and start a conversation

  180. marc

    Is somebody on 34c3 for some hacking? Will there be a XSF/XMPP assembly?

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  186. Ge0rG

    marc: I think so, there should be something in the SCAM section on the wiki

  187. marc

    Ge0rG, yes, thanks!

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  213. Ge0rG

    marc: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/34C3

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  215. jonasw

    marc, I agree

  216. jonasw

    I’d be very interested in your ideas of the flow

  217. jonasw

    ideally there would be something with a token in the URI which allows users to register immediately with a server from within the client even if the server doesn’t allow registrations otherwise.

  218. Ge0rG

    what jonasw said.

  219. Ge0rG

    like a PARS token, but for IBR instead of for presence subscription

  220. Ge0rG

    bonus points for allowing the token to also function as a PARS

  221. jonasw


  222. jonasw

    I’d also like to have Pre-Authenticated MUC Join :)

  223. jonasw

    (for members-only MUCs)

  224. Ge0rG

    jonasw: what's wrong with mediated invitations?

  225. jonasw

    when I don’t know the JID yet?

  226. Ge0rG


  227. Ge0rG

    jonasw: any reason why PARS can't do it for MUC join presence?

  228. jonasw

    Ge0rG, members-only, you’d have to add the user

  229. pep.

    You'd still have to add the user somehow right? To generate the token

  230. jonasw

    pep., no, you generate the token and sedn the token to the user via an out-of-band mean. The whole point is that at the time of invitation, the user might not yet have an XMPP account.

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  232. pep.

    Yeah I got that part. nvm I didn't get Ge0rG's sentence in the first place

  233. pep.

    I'd also be interested in whatever this leads to :)

  234. Guus

    One day for the deadline to apply for Board and Council. The current candidacy list is to short! If you're interested, please sign up now!

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  236. Link Mauve

    You mean sign up tomorrow?

  237. marc

    jonasw, done ;)

  238. Ge0rG

    jonasw [13:38]: > Ge0rG, members-only, you’d have to add the user The user adds the token to the join presence and is added instantly

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  240. marc

    If I have some time these days I'll make a small video of how it works (implemented in Gajim+Conversations)

  241. marc

    And ejabberd

  242. Ge0rG

    What's the membership election deadline? I don't want to risk getting kicked out of council because I forgot my membership application

  243. Ge0rG

    marc: of how what works?

  244. marc

    Well, still some missing parts and all very hackish but the idea should work very well

  245. marc

    Ge0rG, the invitation "flow" :D

  246. Ge0rG

    marc: yay for more "Easy XMPP"!

  247. Guus

    Ge0rG: November 21st

  248. marc

    Yes, I would really see "easy xmpp"

  249. Ge0rG made some videos of PARS back then

  250. Ge0rG

    marc: that's also a category on the wiki

  251. marc

    Otherwise XMPP will never be accepted by end-users

  252. Ge0rG

    marc: that's what I'm saying for years now

  253. marc

    Ge0rG, I guess you'll help me with my XEP and the implementation then ;)

  254. Ge0rG

    marc: yes I will.

  255. marc

    Ge0rG, nice :)

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  257. Ge0rG

    marc: also related https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation

  258. marc

    Ah cool

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  260. marc

    QR codes are nice for invitation, I already use it

  261. Ge0rG

    marc: I think we can extend the http invitation link with an account creation token that allows you to register on a specific server

  262. marc


  263. marc

    I already have this somehow

  264. marc

    Afk, Ge0rG looking forward to work with you on this topic :)

  265. Ge0rG

    I wish I had more time to actually implement things in yaxim

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  270. jonasw

    Ge0rG, now I get it, right

  271. jonasw

    requires support by the MUC service

  272. jonasw

    and PARS needs some more acceptance

  273. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes, do you see another way? Additional handshake with the inviting client?

  274. jonasw

    Ge0rG, no

  275. Ge0rG

    jonasw: PARS is blocked by lack of private pep storage

  276. jonasw

    *in prosody

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  278. Ge0rG

    jonasw: in one of the widely deployed OSS servers

  279. jonasw


  280. jonasw

    I’m also not convinced that PEP is the right place for this.

  281. jonasw

    I mean to push the topic further soon, I’m still lagging behind from vacation.

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  284. Ge0rG

    jonasw: whatever works on prosody 0.10 and will convince daniel is fine with me

  285. Ge0rG

    jonasw: bonus points for solving MUC and account creation invitations in the same track

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  287. jonasw

    not sure this shouldn’t be different XEPs

  288. jonasw

    but I think people complained that yet-another-custom-IQ-protocol is not desirabel

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  291. Ge0rG

    jonasw: as opposed to what?

  292. jonasw

    private PEP

  293. Ge0rG


  294. jonasw

    I re-read the thread from april

  295. jonasw

    I think the arguments for private PEP are convincing

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  297. jonasw

    (it allows easy client-side handling and server integration at the same time)

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  299. jonasw

    it would be great to have the token in the roster, too.... that’d allow clients to purge all entries created by a certain token

  300. Ge0rG

    The only issue I have is the "unlimited count" for pars tokens

  301. jonasw

    unlimited count is fine for me.

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  303. Ge0rG

    I can live with it, and having it in the roster is a great idea

  304. jonasw

    lovely roster extensions which break things

  305. jonasw


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  307. jonasw

    pity people didn’t follow my suggestion for generic roster extensions

  308. jonasw

    that would be handy now

  309. Ge0rG

    I wanted to have some identifier for auto added roster items, the token can well be used for that

  310. Flow

    jonasw, why roster extensions when you can use private PEP?

  311. jonasw

    different things

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  313. Ge0rG

    Flow: do you want to duplicate the roster structure in pep?

  314. Flow

    like a private PEP shadow roster with all you metadata from the extension

  315. Flow

    Ge0rG, possibly

  316. Flow

    I'm not 100% decided which approach is better

  317. jonasw

    Flow, would probably work, yeah. except that you’d really want multiple items in that and PEP services aren’t good at that

  318. Flow

    but then again, thinks will probably break if you extends the roster

  319. Flow


  320. jonasw

    I doubt that they will

  321. Flow

    so there is only this approach left

  322. jonasw

    adding elements in foreign namespaces shouldn’t break things.

  323. jonasw

    or the approach the MIX people went for

  324. jonasw

    which is equally bad or even worse

  325. Kev

    Roster extensions are a sensible thing that we've been talking about for about a decade.

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  328. jonasw

    Kev, why don’t we have them and why is MIX inventing its own probably not really extensible protocol for that?

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  330. Kev

    1) Reasons 2) I'm not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative. MIX is injecting a roster extension.

  331. Ge0rG

    If we do roster extensions, can't we put MUCs there too?

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  334. jonasw

    Kev, re 2: right, I was confused I think

  335. Kev

    Off out, back later.

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  343. Flow

    jonasw, I think that it will cause a lot of trouble if clients see entities in the roster but don't understand the metadata found in the extension

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  345. Flow

    or maybe no trouble, but confusion at least

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  347. jonasw

    Flow, right, for PARS tokens it would be irrelevant though

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  349. Flow

    jonasw, probably

  350. jonasw

    for sure.

  351. jonasw

    it doesn’t do harm if it’s ignored

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  358. Ge0rG

    Flow: do you think it will also break for normal roster items with extensions, as opposed to things like mix?

  359. marc

    Ge0rG, my invitation is based on an adhoc command for token generation, the inviter can chosse contacts to be shared

  360. marc

    these contacts are then added to the roster of the new account

  361. jonasw

    I am now embarrased that I didn’t think of Ad-Hoc commands.

  362. marc

    sounds not too complicated to me

  363. marc

    jonasw, :)

  364. jonasw

    marc, sounds like a solid approach

  365. marc

    jonasw, cool, thanks! So I'm going to further improve my POC

  366. jonasw

    since the account will be on exactly that server, it can of course handle the presence subcsription, no need for PARS

  367. jonasw


  368. marc


  369. jonasw

    marc, I’ll be happy to proof-read things and guide you through the XEP process.

  370. marc

    and I think there is no privacy implication

  371. marc

    since the inviter could send the jids to the invitee later as well

  372. jonasw

    there may be if the token is lost, in the sense that all contact information which was shared server-side is exposed.

  373. marc

    yes, until the token expires

  374. marc

    jonasw, thanks for the offer!

  375. marc

    but even in this case there is only the information that somebody invited an unknown person and shared some contacts

  376. Ge0rG

    I think all we need is an opaque token, the server can implement any amount of logic when it's passed on

  377. marc

    well, shared contacts could be disabled by the provider if this is an issue

  378. Ge0rG

    And we need a robust out of band mechanism to transport it

  379. marc

    I use XMPP URI and QR codes at the moment

  380. marc

    works like a charm

  381. marc

    this enables me in-app invitation

  382. marc

    as fallback it generates an URL

  383. Ge0rG

    Maybe contact sharing should be separated

  384. Ge0rG

    marc: what's the URI format?

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  386. marc

    Ge0rG, well, it's not "defined" but something like xmpp:example.com?account;invite_toke=TOKEN

  387. Ge0rG

    Sounds reasonable

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  389. Ge0rG

    Could be integrated into the landing page

  390. marc

    yep, together with the QR code

  391. Ge0rG

    Might need some information about the inviter, but then that's easy to fake

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  393. marc

    Well, my idea was, if that's required, that the server provides a simple REST API to gather information about the invitation

  394. marc

    This could be done via the token as well

  395. marc

    Well, for the landing page, of course

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  398. marc

    Information included in the URI would be nice but could be faked

  399. Ge0rG

    Invitation links from third party systems are opaque as well, so this is not a priority for me. Having a rest API means we need a way to determine the url from the server name, which is not trivial

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  401. marc

    The landing page and the REST stuff is all optional and out of the scope of this XEP

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  403. marc

    If the landing page web server is implemented in the xmpp server itself, no REST API etc. is needed

  404. marc

    Just for the case the landing page uses another service like lighttpd

  405. Ge0rG

    marc: then the ad hoc command needs a way to find out the landing page link

  406. jonasw

    can simply be returned in the result IIRC

  407. Ge0rG

    What happens if I send a "chat" message to the full proxy JID of a MIX participant?

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  419. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I think it’d behave just like a message sent to the actual JID of a MIX participant, except that it is relayed through the MIX

  420. jonasw

    cf. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#usecase-user-private-messages

  421. jonasw

    this appears to contains resource locking logic

  422. marc

    Ge0rG, yes, the landing page is returned by the adhoc command

  423. jonasw

    marc, how does the signup work?

  424. jonasw

    in-band or out-of-band?

  425. marc

    Ge0rG, the result of the adhoc command is a landing page URL (optional) and a token

  426. Ge0rG

    I'd just do IBR with an additional field stuffed somewhere

  427. marc

    jonasw, that's not implemented at the moment but I would like to send a field like a captcha

  428. jonasw

    IBR itself doesn’t really allow for custom fields

  429. marc

    really? I thought I've read something about it in the XEP

  430. jonasw

    ah right

  431. jonasw

    data forms may be used instead

  432. jonasw


  433. marc


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  707. Ge0rG

    Am I right that with MIX, a MIX-capable user server needs to keep in memory a list of all participants of all MIXes of all its users, online or offline?

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    Ge0rG, why?

  712. jonasw

    (I don’t think so)

  713. jonasw

    gotta go

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