XSF Discussion - 2017-11-08

  1. SamWhited Wow, that looks cool
  2. vanitasvitae Right now there is a "math party" at my university
  3. vanitasvitae https://jabberhead.tk:5443/f0a454a3b03d017a262dfcfef56c2235742e325d/zCMPkHkA5MltD4QQtF25Lqlw4PglxRCG2zKXN5pn/ka4RoLEzQjWNyTtzwEF-VA.jpg
  4. SamWhited daniel: minor annoyance report: despite having looked at the rules in the past I am never sure why some links (like vanitasvitae 's) show up as downloadable but others (Arc's) are not.
  5. vanitasvitae SamWhited: maybe because mine is a httpupload link?
  6. vanitasvitae Ah, maybe thats not the reason...
  7. SamWhited yah, as far as my client is concerned its just a message with text in it that looks like a link (unless the MUC is also reflecting OOB metadata or something)
  8. SamWhited Not a big deal, it just "feels" inconsistent
  9. daniel SamWhited: if you use the attach button in Conversations it will add an oob tag. And Conversations will only show the button for messages which also have an oob tag
  10. daniel The muc does reflect that
  11. SamWhited That makes sense
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  26. Arc well one's http vs https
  27. Arc is the mime being sent on each?
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  67. Zash moparisthebest: FWIW I've had thoughts along the same lines as you wrt encrypting things separately so that only the entity that needs one piece of data can see it. But I don't think that's XMPP.
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  149. Ge0rG How does the OOB tag interop with OMEMO? It's obviously leaking data, but what exactly? Is the password only contained in the body?
  150. Zash I am under the impression that it's just a special URL in the (encrypted) body, with the encryption key in the #this part.
  151. zinid leaking data my ass...
  152. zinid yet another round of bikeshedding
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  155. Ge0rG Zash: yes, that's how it works. But what is contained in the oob tag?
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  158. Ge0rG I would look up myself, but I don't have any OMEMOs
  159. Zash I don't believe there is one
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  163. Ge0rG Zash: I was under the impression that Conversations needs the oob tag to display inline images
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  173. jonasw Ge0rG: oob is safe enough for daniel, sims would not be: https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/2637
  174. Ge0rG I'd probably consider the picture URL and file size to be private as well, but what do I know
  175. Zash Where's that blag that said that e2e crypto is basically just marketing fluff?
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  177. Ge0rG Hm. of all people, I should know that.
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  195. jonasw SamWhited, so you’re arguing my proposal is bad because it’ll lead to incompatibilities among clients, but you argue that incompatibilities among clients when you change bits in yours aren’t an issue? (around 22:19Z)
  196. jonasw daniel, no, you will only get real-world feedback on the input format. nobody cares about the wire format except the devs who are then forced to implement things because of your market share (sorry to be blunt here.) (re around 22:48Z)
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  198. jonasw but hey, we already agree on the input format, I think that’s really nice, and it’s nice to have that standardised.
  199. Ge0rG I only wish for a way to skip formatting when typing formulas
  200. jonasw or any other content for that matter.
  201. jonasw or any other content which shouldn’t be formatted for that matter.
  202. jonasw but nobody listens to me
  203. Zash It seems weird to me to be XEPing what amounts to UI things
  204. Ge0rG Zash: because you are a server dev
  205. Ge0rG Zash: I care very much about UI things, and I want them consistent across implementations
  206. Flow I'm sure everybody already noticed that XHTML-IM/styling/markdown/bmh discussion related thing on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15646425
  207. Ge0rG This is the major weakness of XMPP. Every client works differently
  208. Zash But sometimes it is a strength.
  209. jonasw depends
  210. jonasw I think for each major workflow we’d need a set of clients covering each platform.
  211. Zash Altho according to some random Reddit thread I saw, none of the competition things work as they should in FOSS
  212. jonasw currently, conversations covers the "non-technical" workflow pretty well on mobile.
  213. Ge0rG Zash: yes, if you believe that you need the opportunity to differentiate on quality of implementation.
  214. Zash Well, optimally the differentiation would be on proirites, so you could find a thing that sucks in ways you don't care about.
  215. Flow jonasw, a while ago Dave suggested to have a generic extension to reference certain parts of bodytext ( https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030924.html ). That doesn't sound like a bad idea to me, as it could also be used in your Message Markup XEP. What do you think?
  216. jonasw Flow, I looked at References
  217. jonasw it would be a major (size) overhead to have a <reference xmlns="…"> element for each bit of markup though
  218. Flow jonasw, not reference
  219. Flow <bodytext/>
  220. Flow (see linked mail)
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  222. Flow Uh wait, maybe I misunderstood Dave's mail, he was probably just talking about factoring the data into an extra element
  223. Flow not using that as generic element which can be re-used by other xeps
  224. jonasw I think so, too
  225. jonasw but now I get what you meant
  226. jonasw it also isn’t in the final XEP
  227. jonasw (<https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html>)
  228. Flow true, but the idea is appealing. such an generic element could also specify how it's used with non-<body/> body text
  229. Flow like the text found in OMEMO messages
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  231. jonasw I see your general point. we could reword so that it doesn’t refer to <body/> but to "text of the message". in which case OMEMO would provide the "actual" text of the message as opposed to the <body/>.
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  234. jonasw but there are different issues with combining this with OMEMO which need to be discussed in the security considerations (OMEMO won’t encrypt the markup...)
  235. Flow jonasw, i fear it's a bit more complicated than that
  236. jonasw (nor will it authenticate the markup, which is bad too)
  237. jonasw Flow, is it?
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  239. Flow 1. there could be multiple unencrypted <body/> elements. 2. with OX there could be multiple encrypted <body/> elements. 3. with omemo it is just one body (and the markup information is not encrypted/authenticted)
  240. jonasw multiple unencrypted body elements must have xml:lang tags to distinguish them, as do <markup/> elements.
  241. jonasw I presume that this is the same for OX?
  242. Flow yep
  243. Zash What does happen if you have multiple bodies with e2e?
  244. Flow but I possibly place the xml:lang selector not in <markup/> but in the generic <bodytext/>
  245. Flow Zash, what happens if you have multiple bodies without e2e?
  246. jonasw Flow, that makes things more complex to parse and generate I think
  247. Zash I haven't a clue
  248. jonasw Flow, I think e2ee simply doesn’t allow that
  249. jonasw it’s also not a very common use-case in IM
  250. Flow OX does not forbit multiple <body/> elements
  251. Flow *forbid
  252. jonasw *currently deployed e2ee simply doesn’t allow that ;-)
  253. daniel Is there an OX implementation in smack Flow?
  254. Flow daniel, there is a branch a started a while ago
  255. Flow but nothing even prototypical
  256. Flow yet
  257. pep. jonasw: maybe you should cover the case in markups. How does it work when there are multiple bodies ATM? (Different xml:lang)
  258. Flow first ISR, then OX. that is the current order of my priorities ;)
  259. jonasw pep., it’s in the Business rules and the Internationalisation considerations.
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  267. pep. jonasw: also, unrelated, I'm not really fan of leaving the list/quotation characters etc., in the rendered version
  268. jonasw pep., I agree
  269. jonasw it’s tricky to avoid though
  270. jonasw I’m writing a response to standards@ about this
  271. pep. K
  272. jonasw (Goffi brought it up there)
  273. pep. Will read
  274. pep. And I need to reply as well
  275. jonasw pep., there you go
  276. daniel jonasw: aren't the > and * you use in your example kinda like markup information in the body?
  277. daniel Which the xep says you are trying to avoid?
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  279. pep. That's why I don't like them
  280. dwd daniel, It's only bad if someone else does it.
  281. jonasw daniel, it’s not required for them to be there at all.
  282. jonasw they don’t carry any meaning.
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  284. jonasw however, if combined with Message Styling, I can totally see letting them in there for compatibility.
  285. pep. What's the point if you already have the meaning of your markup translated
  286. dwd pep., Fallback.
  287. jonasw you can’t stop people from typing them (I do too!), and I’m totally in favour of specifying the input format Message Styling defines
  288. Ge0rG And then we end up with a message containing a <body> with this-is-really-not-markdown-although-it-walks-like-markdown-and-quacks-like-markdown, a <body-markup-hint/>, a <markup> tree and an XHTML-IM payload.
  289. jonasw but in contrast to the Message Styling wire format, we could adapt to changing behaviours and trends in the meta-characters used by humans
  290. jonasw which is nice
  291. jonasw (I mean, adapt without breaking old archives and interop for the transition period)
  292. pep. jonasw: leaving it there defeats the point of not putting markup on the body
  293. jonasw pep., tend to agree.
  294. jonasw but some kind of fallback is needed.
  295. pep. Why?
  296. jonasw especially for quotations
  297. jonasw (not so much for lists)
  298. Kev My thoughts on this, /still/ not having had time to look at the spec. Is that we're not trying to define a new format here that adds a new feature, we're trying to render correctly what the user's intent was when they typed something. I think that changes things *significantly*.
  299. jonasw if a client doesn’t understand <markup/>, it would render the quotations as normal paragraphs.
  300. pep. Do we have a failback for every single xep out there? In case the first one isn't supported
  301. jonasw pep., I think most XEPs either specify a fallback or fail gracefully.
  302. Kev And so just documenting roughly what people are already typing in messages is both pragmatic and sensible.
  303. Kev (And people *are* already typing ascii markup in messages, and the world is definitely not falling apart, even though not all clients support rendering it)
  304. jonasw Kev, my main problem with Message Styling isn’t that it does that, but that it doesn’t have an opt-in.
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  306. Ge0rG Kev: actually, all clients support rendering it... as ASCII
  307. pep. Ge0rG: agreed
  308. Kev Ge0rG: Potato potato :)
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  310. jonasw if we’re going to change the rendering with possibly removing charatcers (e.g. for quotations!), then it must be opt-in.
  311. Kev We should not be removing characters.
  312. jonasw and I think that it should still be opt-in even if those characters are preserved.
  313. daniel jonasw, isn't opt-in something your client should support?
  314. jonasw daniel, no, because the client can’t know if the sender intended it.
  315. Kev We should be rendering the existing characters with additional styling, or should have a local toggle.
  316. Ge0rG Kev: but it's up to the sender to decide whether they want markup for a given ASCII sequence.
  317. Kev (Which is what Swift does with emoticons - it renders by default, removing the source, but you can flip it off to go back to the as-sent. Useful if someone's pasting code sometimes)
  318. daniel i'm not really sure what you mean by opt-in then
  319. jonasw daniel, an additional element to <message/> which indicates that the body can be interpreted according to the Message Styling rules.
  320. Ge0rG I think that when copy&pasting things from the IM client, the original body should be copied with all "markup" characters present as-is
  321. Ge0rG jonasw: that would be body-markup-hints?
  322. daniel jonasw, i can get on board with that
  323. jonasw Ge0rG, exactly.
  324. jonasw daniel, I said so on the list, nobody cared :(
  325. Ge0rG the sending client could pre-render markup in the input field and offer a button to strip markup
  326. Ge0rG so you can paste code.
  327. Ge0rG but then interop.
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  329. Ge0rG You can't fix Gajim overnight
  330. jonasw Ge0rG, lovetox can :)
  331. Ge0rG So we need two hints. One for "this is markup" and another for "this is definitively not markup"
  332. daniel i'm not really sure I want Flows xep for that though. because then styling would depend on Flows xep getting accepted
  333. jonasw daniel, I think flows xep was rejected anyways?
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  335. Kev Ge0rG: Isn't this similar to the "I meant what I sent" that I was talking about with not doing emoticon rendering?
  336. dwd daniel, It needs something like Flow's BMH. Not *exactly* it.
  337. jonasw dwd, I think in fact it pretty much needs that.
  338. Kev (Although not quite the same)
  339. Ge0rG Kev: I thought you were talking about the receiving side
  340. Ge0rG I'm still annoyed by some IM clients replacing (b) and (y) with random emoji.
  341. jonasw daniel, in fact, my arguments for opt-in were dismissed with something along the lines of "edge cases nobody should care about".
  342. jonasw Ge0rG, kill trillian with fire
  343. Ge0rG jonasw: also, Gajim.
  344. daniel jonasw, i'm trying to find your email in that huge bike shadding thread to give a thumbs up
  345. jonasw Date: Yesterday 19:29
  346. jonasw (CET)
  347. jonasw if that helps
  348. Zash destroyallsoftware?
  349. daniel it does
  350. Ge0rG Kev: "I meant what I sent" could be a BMH of "text/plain"
  351. dwd Ge0rG, I don't think we need the complexity of media typing here, actually.
  352. Ge0rG dwd: right, let's just invent a new name for it.
  353. dwd Ge0rG, Would you want text/html there?
  354. jonasw I get shivers.
  355. jonasw also, note that BMH is not Content types
  356. dwd Ge0rG, If anything, we want a media type of: `text/plain; format=XYZ`, with ZYX given by a BMH-a-like.
  357. Ge0rG Okay, BMH only relates to body, so "text/" is implicitly pre-set.
  358. jonasw https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bmh.html#languages
  359. jonasw there’s no media type here.
  360. Ge0rG I don't like the use of the term "Language" in there.
  361. Ge0rG </bikeshed>
  362. dwd Ge0rG, Yes, excellent point, this is veyr much a bikeshed.
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  364. jonasw BMH essentially foresaw Styling.
  365. jonasw > TODO: Shall we define your own subset of e.g. CommonMark, XMPPMark? :)
  366. jonasw (or shall I say, inspired?)
  367. dwd I think the writing was on the wall.
  368. Ge0rG dwd: as opposed to the exact BMH identifier string to be used for "this is not markup"?
  369. dwd Only we couldn't parse it properly because it turned out nobody knew what *this* meant.
  370. Ge0rG I still want code syntax highlighting.
  371. dwd Ge0rG, I'm not worried about clients heuristically doing that in ```these sections```.
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  373. Zash What about `if(what){then()}`{.c}
  374. Ge0rG like heuristically rendering /italics/ and *bold*?
  375. Ge0rG Zash: I think it's sensible to keep syntax coloring to ``` blocks, not to `spans`
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  377. Ge0rG So what about the following proposal: - messages with a BMH(*) of "Styling" get styled and the markup characters removed on display (but not on copy&paste) - messages without a BMH get rendered as markup with the markup charachters in place - messages with a BMH of "plain" get rendered verbatim with no styling applied (*) BMH or an improved version that provides the same semantical meaning
  378. dwd Ge0rG, I think that's sensible. I'm not entirely sure about the middle case, but I don't care enough to object.
  379. daniel gajims current rendering is pretty annoying btw
  380. jonasw daniel, didit boldface everything between (*) and (*)?
  381. daniel yes
  382. jonasw kill it with fire
  383. dwd jonasw, Yup. Not a huge fan of that, nor leaving the *asterisks* in place.
  384. dwd jonasw, But as a heuristic solution it's OK, and 99% of the time gets things right.
  385. jonasw Ge0rG, you can’t really remove the markup characters on display in any case, because then clients would have to be sure that the sender intended it to be that way.
  386. Ge0rG x * y - z * 3
  387. zinid easy to writer a parser they said
  388. jonasw Ge0rG, and I don’t think that’s an assumption an client operated by a human can reasonably have
  389. dwd jonasw, Ge0rG literally just outlined a way to communicate exactly that.
  390. Ge0rG jonasw: the sender needs to pre-render the markup in the input line of course.
  391. daniel zinid, the styling xep has a very straight forward parser
  392. jonasw dwd, sender as in the human operating the client, not as in the program
  393. daniel it's just about defining the rules properly
  394. jonasw Ge0rG, that’s a very complex thing not many clients will do.
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  396. Ge0rG jonasw: an easier thing would be to have a button on the sent message to "remove markup", which would send an LMC with a BMH.
  397. zinid daniel: can I use LALR(1) parser? if not, it's not simple
  398. jonasw Ge0rG, sounds like a plan!
  399. jonasw didn’t think of LMC in this context, kudos
  400. jonasw zinid, I think LALR(1) should do
  401. zinid jonasw: can I have grammar.y then? or should I write it manually because it's funny?
  402. jonasw zinid, I suggest that the XEP authors provide a formal definition of the grammer once it is accepted :)
  403. zinid jonasw: ok
  404. Ge0rG BNF FTW!
  405. zinid ABNF would be awesome, I could use ragel
  406. jonasw ABNF seems very reasonable considering that it’s the IETFs go-to representation for grammars.
  407. daniel Ge0rG, if we want to annotate i'd prefer the simpler 'opt-in' proposal jonasw had
  408. Zash Not EBNF?
  409. jonasw Zash, I always forget the exact acronym
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  411. daniel you could still to 'send lmc to remove style'
  412. Ge0rG daniel: the simpler opt-in mechanism requires all clients to update
  413. Ge0rG daniel: ah, LMC-based markup removal. Yeah.
  414. Zash jonasw: Looks like both ABNF and EBNF exist
  415. jonasw daniel, re-visiting BMH in the light of Styling I think BMH would be a great way to convey this and allow for richer use-cases at the same time.
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  418. daniel Ge0rG, most clients need to update anyway. because gajim doesn't support styling for example
  419. jonasw BMH still can’t cover everything XHTML-IM could, but it provides nice plain-text fallbacks. a client with strong a11y considerations would want to interpret most of those markups anyways.
  420. jonasw Ge0rG, re code blocks, by the way, a common convention is "```language\n<code here>\n```"
  421. jonasw that’s how gitlab markup does it
  422. Ge0rG jonasw: yeah, I could live with that.
  423. Zash That's how pandoc does it.
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  427. Ge0rG re "text/plain", Tobias wrote re BMH: "I wonder whether it makes sense to reuse IANA Media Types instead of starting a new registry."
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  429. jonasw Ge0rG, at which point it would’ve been Content Types (<https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/content-types.html>) which was rejected over a year ago
  430. Ge0rG History is repeating.
  431. Ge0rG Can't we just change the message type? (I mean the 'type' attribute of the <message> stanza)
  432. jonasw Ge0rG, go away.
  433. jonasw ;-)
  434. Tobias Ge0rG, i think the RFC doesn't allow additional parameters on that
  435. Tobias or additional attributes on body
  436. jonasw namespaced attributes! (Sam is gonna shoot me)
  437. Ge0rG Tobias: we can override the RFC with an XEP. I'm sure nobody will notice.
  438. Zash jonasw: y u do this
  439. jonasw Zash, what?
  440. Zash jonasw: mention namespaced attributes :)
  441. jonasw I think they’re great.
  442. Ge0rG do they need namespace versioning as well?
  443. jonasw sure
  444. jonasw I think by now that much of this war is rooted in the confusion between "plain-text fallback" and "markup language" and that again is rooted in the fact that many modern markup languages look like plaintext fallbacks.
  445. jonasw or rather have useful plaintext fallbacks right from the beginning
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  455. Kev Well, also whether you want what people already type to be correctly handled everywhere.
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  457. jonasw Kev, no, that’s input conventions and should not matter for wire formats.
  458. Kev Assuming universal adoption.
  459. Kev But this 'just render what's sent with styling enhancement' has been in use for a very long time without issue.
  460. jonasw if we still had the IRC conventions with some control-characters for formatting around, you’d not argue that "what people already type" should be in wire formats.
  461. jonasw (mostly because XML can’t carry those, but also because it’s not a useful plaintext fallback)
  462. Zash I like arguments like "everyone is already doing it" and "has worked forever without issue"
  463. jonasw Kev, I doubt you can say "without issue" just 50 lines after somebody complained about how broken gajim handles that.
  464. Zash Especially when people are pointing out the times it's messy and doesn't work
  465. mathieui jonasw, which is why I’ll wirte a protoxep in order to send the poezio internal format over the wire, escaped
  466. mathieui jonasw, which is why I’ll write a protoxep in order to send the poezio internal format over the wire, escaped
  467. Kev jonasw: Gajim may do something stupid, but Psi doesn't.
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  469. Kev I'm not saying that doing other things than what I'm suggesting works without issue :)
  470. jonasw Kev, but it kind-of moots the "everyone is doing it and it works great" point
  471. mathieui "psi is doing it, and for some cases it works great" already doesn’t sound that good
  472. Kev It would certainly bring into question that point that I'm not making, yes.
  473. @Alacer has left
  474. Kev A lot of people are sending this stuff on the wire, irrespective of rendering. Some clients (at least Psi) also add styling successfully to it.
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  477. jonasw Kev, "without issue" is certainly wrong, but I’m not going to nitpick here (and I probably misread some statement)
  478. Kev What's the issue with what Psi's doing?
  479. jonasw I don’t know psi, but what gajim does is certanily an issue.
  480. jonasw so it’s not without issue at all.
  481. Kev It basically just turns *thing* into <b>*thing*</b>
  482. mathieui jonasw, Kev’s point is that it has been in use for a long time without issue, in psi
  483. mathieui which is not contradicted by "gajim handles things wrong"
  484. Kev I don't buy the argument that "What Kev suggests doesn't work, because someone does something different to what Kev suggests, and that doesn't work".
  485. Steve Kille has left
  486. jonasw Kev, maybe I missed what you indeed suggest :)
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  489. mathieui (I haven’t used psi in a very long time so I can’t argue with that)
  490. Kev Just adding styling to ** // __.
  491. jonasw Kev, well gajim does exactly that
  492. Kev (Without removing the characters)
  493. Kev If Gajim does exactly that, what's the issue?
  494. jonasw it also does that across newlines
  495. mathieui jonasw, gajim has somewhat looser boundaries
  496. mathieui I think psi only does it for words
  497. jonasw mathieui, Kev didn’t say anything about boundaries :-)
  498. mathieui e.g. the formating chars are stuck to the words
  499. @Alacer has joined
  500. goffi Kev: even by keeping the formatting characteres, I would not like to have ls `date +%Y-%m-%d`-*.xml rendered half in monospace, partly in bold. How does Psi handle that?
  501. Steve Kille has joined
  502. Kev I forget, I wrote this a decade and a half ago or so.
  503. mathieui jonasw, I mean, if Kev says it works fine, it has to be slightly more precise than what gajim does, even if I believe we can always find cases where it doesn’t do what's intended
  504. Kev I'm sure it's possible to have it do not-what-you-intend, but I don't believe ever in a way that damages the ability to understand it.
  505. Kev But none of that example should be bold, because there's only one *, and in that particular case half of it being monospace is exactly what one would usually expect.
  506. Kev But ISTR I made Psi not do word partials.
  507. jonasw FTR, I think the rules laid out by Styling are a good start, once we get rid of the escaping (which I think Sam said he would do)
  508. valo has joined
  509. Kev There *is* a definite advantage to having this out of band, BTW, which is that you can not annotate things that are pastes.
  510. Kev But I think you can achieve the same thing just by having <paste/> as a child.
  511. Kev AFK a while.
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  554. moparisthebest I can see it now, 20 years from now: "daddy what caused the great XMPP fork of 2017 when half the community split off into Zimpy?" "well honey, they couldn't agree on the optimal way to bold a word in a text message"
  555. Zash /thread
  556. jonasw itym </thread>?
  557. zinid *thread*
  558. Ge0rG *italics*
  559. mathieui i*italics*
  560. intosi ["The last word should be ", {"style": "bold", "contents": "bold"}]
  561. Zash Let me tell you about `pandoc -t json`
  562. intosi Can I still say no?
  563. intosi Or rather, [{"unMeta":{}},[{"t":"Para","c":[{"t":"Str","c":"No!"}]}]]
  564. dwd I'm concerned that "No" is not semantically transmitted, and therefore may be interpreted differently in multiple clients.
  565. Guus dwd: I see that you're married.
  566. dwd We should have a markup that encapsulates the entirety of human speech, so that all clients directly interpret the semantics intended, and therefore can respond suitably without relying on humans having to guess what the sender might mean.
  567. Zash <statement><negative exclamation='true'>no</negative></statement>
  568. Ge0rG dwd: machine to machine communications?
  569. Tobias has left
  570. dwd Guus, <amusement/><agreement/>
  571. dwd Ge0rG, And from there, but a short step to eliding the communication entirely, making XMPP so much more bandwidth efficient.
  572. intosi I would propose BER, but I'm too lazy to do so.
  573. Zash B2B communication
  574. dwd intosi, PER, surely, or does David no longer get excited by that one?
  575. Zash intosi: have you considered beer instead
  576. Ge0rG dwd: that's absolutely the wrong direction. We can finally increase XMPP's popularity by populating the network with m2m semantics-capable clients
  577. intosi Zash: +1
  578. intosi dwd: I am not presently in the same room as David, he cannot complain.
  579. dwd <ironic-statement/>
  580. Ge0rG <sarcastic-retort/>
  581. dwd <assertion-of-fascism/>
  582. jonasw <godwins-law/>
  583. Zash <statement:nonsensical rel='plankton'/>
  584. moparisthebest I'm super sorry to turn the topic of conversation here, but, Zash about layers of encryption so each server only knew bare minimum
  585. moparisthebest seems like it could still be XMPP but we'd just have to wrap things in new nonzas ?
  586. jonasw moparisthebest, broadcast
  587. zinid "We can finally increase XMPP's popularity" - this will never happen
  588. moparisthebest <deliver to="otherserver.com"> (this part is encrypted blob #1)<deliver to="jid@otherserver.com">(this part is encrypted blob #2)<message from="bob@bob.com" to="jid@otherserver.com">etc</message>(/end encrypted blob #2)</deliver>(/end encrypted blob #1)</deliver>
  589. jonasw moparisthebest, what about presence broadcast, MUC?
  590. moparisthebest jonasw, not sure, maybe it only works for messaging
  591. jonasw MUC and MIX broadcasts?
  592. Ge0rG jonasw: encrypted to the MUC service
  593. Ge0rG jonasw: or multi-key-encrypted to all participants
  594. moparisthebest it might only be feasible for bare-minimum metadata for direct chats
  595. moparisthebest yea that'd work I guess, let the MUC service broadcast, idk
  596. moparisthebest just trying to throw crazy ideas out there that solve the metadata problem as much as possible
  597. jonasw I don’t think that there is a real metadata problem.
  598. moparisthebest we are OK with specs that require changes on all clients and servers to be useable already, see MIX
  599. jonasw or maybe there is, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to solve that within XMPP.
  600. moparisthebest might as well solve the metadata problem the same way
  601. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the best solution to the metadata problem is to run your own server for you and all of your important contacts
  602. SamWhited jonasw: no, I'm arguing that it's not a problem because we won't change it later. The formatting is good enough and doesn't need to be extensible after we settle on a few basic things (but I don't remember what I said about your thing with relation to compatibility)
  603. moparisthebest doesn't *solve* it, you still have 1 central service that knows everything
  604. zinid moparisthebest: solve what?
  605. Ge0rG moparisthebest: federated systems will always have metadata leakage. What you want instead is a P2P DHT chat system.
  606. jonasw SamWhited, okay
  607. moparisthebest metadata problem
  608. Ge0rG moparisthebest: or maybe you want to connect to XMPP via TOR.
  609. moparisthebest if I wanted that I'd just use tox, and have to change my phone battery every 20 minutes
  610. moparisthebest I'm just talking about leaking bare minimum metadata to XMPP servers, the bare minimum for federated chat
  611. Ge0rG moparisthebest: so what you want instead is a tox agent running on a trusted server that you connect to.
  612. moparisthebest then you are back to 1 central server with all info
  613. Ge0rG moparisthebest: yes.
  614. moparisthebest so you've got A (client) -> B (server) -> C (server) -> D (client)
  615. Ge0rG moparisthebest: with XMPP, you could hide the usernames of the people you talk to from your server. But not presence.
  616. moparisthebest an ideal scenario has each only knowing about the next hop
  617. Ge0rG moparisthebest: and then still, the receiving server would know your full JID.
  618. moparisthebest no they'd only know the server it came from, and who it's going to, not sending JID though
  619. jonasw moparisthebest, that doesn’t buy you a lot, you’d need to go full Tor essentially
  620. moparisthebest I think it does buy you a lot
  621. moparisthebest no server knows who sent it or who it's intended for
  622. moparisthebest and that's the win you are looking for
  623. moparisthebest worded that wrong, let me try again...
  624. jonasw it needs to know who sent it to be able to reply with an error
  625. Zash moparisthebest: howaboutno
  626. moparisthebest no single server knows who sent it or who it is intended for
  627. moparisthebest damnit
  628. moparisthebest no single server knows BOTH who sent it AND who it is intended for
  629. moparisthebest finally, need more coffee
  630. jonasw moparisthebest, the destination server needs to know both
  631. Ge0rG moparisthebest: then you have to filter spam at the client.
  632. jonasw it needs to be able to deliver it to the client locally
  633. jonasw and it needs to be able to reply with an erro
  634. jonasw to the original sender
  635. moparisthebest jonasw, right, to the original sender's SERVER
  636. moparisthebest who then handles it from there
  637. jonasw and how would that know where to send it?
  638. moparisthebest that's encrypted so only the senders server can decrypt it
  639. jonasw I see
  640. moparisthebest Ge0rG, yep you always have to with e2e meh
  641. jonasw moparisthebest, incorrect
  642. jonasw whatsapp and others filter spam solely based on metadata
  643. moparisthebest and here you have even less metadata
  644. jonasw email spam is also filtered based on metadata to a large extent (DNSBLs for example)
  645. moparisthebest which is in fact the entire point
  646. jonasw yes, but that’s not a property of e2ee
  647. moparisthebest you can still filter the DNSBL way, ie, blocking the whole server
  648. moparisthebest but that's it
  649. moparisthebest Zash, you don't want to implement it as a server dev or you think it won't work or you think it's a terrible idea, or all 3? :P
  650. waqas has joined
  651. Zash Insufficient context
  652. Guus I know I'm late to the party, but: <response thread="ban-opposing-sides"/>
  653. Guus threat!
  654. jonasw Zash, I guess it’s 14:16:46 Zash> moparisthebest: howaboutno
  655. moparisthebest yep
  656. Zash On phone, it scrolled out of view.
  657. Zash Anyone wanna add a in-reply-to equivalent thing to XMPP ?
  658. jonasw Zash, there are three of that
  659. Kev Zash: References. You're welcome.
  660. jonasw (1) Threads, (2) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html, (3) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html
  661. jonasw possibly more
  662. moparisthebest so the client would have to negotiate this with their server who would negotiate it with the remote server, then the client would triple encrypt everything before sending
  663. Zash Step two, bother client devs
  664. jonasw Zash, no, step 2 is to find a proper UI for that
  665. Alex has left
  666. Zash jonasw: I'd show you my irc client
  667. lumi has joined
  668. jonasw Zash, how does that do In-Reply-To?
  669. Alex has joined
  670. Zash https://www.zash.se/upload/MdiT9Ke5RKyC07wpWTErEw.jpg
  671. Zash Long press on message
  672. Zash All it does afaik is to add the nick as a prefix
  673. jonasw Zash, that only seems like a reasonable workflow on mobile :/
  674. jonasw hm
  675. jonasw desktop could have a button
  676. Zash What, isn't mobile first the thing anymore?
  677. jonasw I don’t care about mobile :)
  678. jonasw (a lotr
  679. Zash And desktop never
  680. jonasw (a lot)
  681. SamWhited >> I'm concerned that "No" is not semantically transmitted, and therefore may be interpreted differently in multiple clients. > dwd: I see that you're married. I need to stop reading Guus' comments on the bus, people look at you funny when you laugh loudly in public.
  682. Zash Maybe you can infer from nickname prefix
  683. moparisthebest sorry what's this > business in front of your messages SamWhited ? I don't understand /sarcasm /no-need-to-respond :)
  684. jonasw SamWhited, I learnt that the hard way while reading The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy for the first time.
  685. Guus tips hat.
  686. SamWhited jonasw: ooh yah, I wouldn't mind reading that again, but maybe not on the bus.
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  694. Link Mauve “13:17:24 zinid> we don't have avatars working goddamit”, do you have any issue with XEP-0153 in a specific deployment?
  695. jonasw I have an issue with XEP-0153 :/
  696. jonasw it’s the whole damn thing :P
  697. lovetox yeah i dont get that, xep-0153 covers all use cases in my opinion, i dont know why we every would need more
  698. lovetox the only thing that can be said thats not so nice is, that you can request the avatar alone
  699. jonasw lovetox, notification on change?
  700. Link Mauve jonasw, it’s a thing which works, today, in every case.
  701. lovetox and also have to request whole vcard
  702. Link Mauve jonasw, presence update.
  703. lovetox jonasw, presence?
  704. jonasw oh
  705. lovetox but avatar data will always way more then vcard data
  706. lovetox so not that big of a problem
  707. jonasw I didn’t know that
  708. lovetox then you never read 0153
  709. jonasw I admit that
  710. jonasw I read the title and that it was historical and assumed it’d be polling the vcard
  711. Link Mauve Long ago I wanted to add a vCard value for 0084 too, but I never followed on that.
  712. nyco has left
  713. zinid Link Mauve: I have no problems with 0153, I have problems with 0153 and 0084 being implemented by different clients
  714. zinid Link Mauve: also 0084 doesn't work in mucs
  715. zinid and now we're doing the same weird shit with vcard-4
  716. jonasw I heard nobody uses vcard-4?
  717. zinid jonasw: MIX suggests it for example
  718. lovetox no though i plan to use it
  719. edhelas jonasw I do, over PEP
  720. edhelas works great
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  723. zinid ok, we probably need to say good bye to vcards as well
  724. zinid so no avatars, no vcards, no private storage, no file sharing
  725. zinid that's where we are in 2017
  726. lumi has left
  727. zinid and you are discussing how to transfer bold
  728. zinid amusing
  729. mathieui zinid, I want to transfer italics, not bold!
  730. edhelas yup
  731. edhelas zinid I do agree, and bookmark is still broken and non-atomic :p
  732. zinid yes, bookmarks are broken as well because of incompatible implementations
  733. jonasw hopefully we can settle all of this if multi-item PEP lands
  734. jonasw hopefully we can settle all of this when multi-item PEP lands
  735. jonasw hopefully we can settle all of this when multi-item private PEP lands
  736. Holger We'll still have 2-3 XEPs for transmitting bold then :-)
  737. edhelas jonasw PEP could be just Pubsub on JID <3
  738. Link Mauve zinid, clients implementing 0084 instead of 0153, latest 0048 instead of previous 0048 which used to use 0049, because of some perceived superiority of PEP, are the stupid ones imo.
  739. edhelas 🦄
  740. Link Mauve vCard 4 is also something which should be replaced with vCard.
  741. Holger Link Mauve: I think we are the stupid ones in failing to agree on a solution for a given problem.
  742. Holger First step would be acknowledging this as a problem, but I'm being told that's all just the usual XEP standardization process and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
  743. zinid Link Mauve: should be replaced? like in https://xkcd.com/927 ?
  744. Link Mauve I didn’t want to propose to deprecate 0084 or vCard 4 or 0223, mostly because in the future they could be better, but it seems best to ignore them currently.
  745. edhelas Link Mauve what's the issue of using PEP for everything related to JID informations ? then we have one way of getting and setting those info
  746. SamWhited Holger ++
  747. Link Mauve Holger, yes, I agree.
  748. edhelas also with Prosody having persistance and Pubsub now we will be able to use PEP for mostly everything
  749. Link Mauve edhelas, not really, no.
  750. jonasw Link Mauve, excuse me, if I am faced with a choice between a Draft and a Historical XEP, I’m going to implement Draft.
  751. Ge0rG edhelas: prosody isn't even there yet
  752. Link Mauve 0084 is still fundamentally broken, despite persistency in one specific implementation.
  753. jonasw I learnt the hard way that XEP-0084 isn’t deployed widely, and I’m super-annoyed that I had to find out the hard way.
  754. Link Mauve jonasw, yes, the state of these XEPs is sad.
  755. edhelas Link Mauve why 0084 is broken ?
  756. georg has left
  757. zinid edhelas: it doesn't work in mucs
  758. jonasw if it’s not supposed to be implemented, council should make sure that it doesn’t look like one should
  759. edhelas ah yes MUC…
  760. edhelas let's talk about vcards and avatars for Pubsub nodes as well
  761. jonasw but I firmly reject to be the "stupid one" here.
  762. Link Mauve edhelas, it’s only usable by your contacts, in your roster; if you’re in a MUC you can’t use it, if you’re just chatting with someone who isn’t in your roster you can’t use it.
  763. edhelas basically what we are trying to do with MIX
  764. Link Mauve jonasw, as Holger pointed it, it’s not users or developers who are the stupid ones, but the XSF and our current standardisation process.
  765. jonasw XEP-0048 is even worse because you can’t easily discover that the whole way to store it was changed
  766. edhelas allowing PEP for any nodes and JID would be nice
  767. Link Mauve jonasw, yes.
  768. jonasw Link Mauve, oh, I missed that :(
  769. zinid edhelas: but how? by obligating a user's server to keep MIX metadata?
  770. edhelas for example a MUC admin can set a vcard node to his MUC
  771. Link Mauve edhelas, you can already do that though.
  772. jonasw I think that the XEP-0048 should be rolled back and a new XEP should be made at some point, because this was a massive change which shouldn’t happen in draft.
  773. edhelas jonasw roled back to private-xml ?
  774. jonasw edhelas, yes
  775. edhelas hell no
  776. jonasw not becaiuse of technical superiority, because it was incredibly wrong procses-wise
  777. edhelas jonasw I'd like to manage bookmarks this way https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0330.html
  778. jonasw I don’t think that private-xml is a good way to store things (but PEP isn’t there yet either, due to lack of deployment), but I don’t think that we can exchange a whole XEP in a minor revision in Draft state!
  779. edhelas as I said, if PEP will be correctly implemented it would unlock many possibilities
  780. edhelas even if avatars for mucs will not be solved…
  781. edhelas Link Mauve what is missing in Prosody to have proper PEP support (persistance and pubsub stuff related) ?
  782. edhelas last time I've checked it was getting there
  783. pep. edhelas, isn't it in trunk already? just the flag that's not turned on
  784. edhelas well yeah
  785. edhelas I have some minor issues with configure on create but it was fine overall (thanks again for the work btw)
  786. edhelas I have to check again though
  787. pep. Maybe I can make that patch, I have never really looked into prosody's sources seriously. Turning on a flag shouldn't be that hard? (not right now though)
  788. Holger Different topic: The current MAM revision says the "server add an <stanza-id/> element" to live messages, and "SHOULD include the element as a child of the forwarded message when using Message Carbons". Why only SHOULD? Now the client can't rely on carbons being tagged. Wasn't the whole point of bumping the MAM namespace to make this guarantee?
  789. lskdjf has joined
  790. edhelas what about having PEP for muc resources ? when I join a MUC I still advertise to the MUC service my caps, if I have avatar+notify the service can push me the avatars of the resources of the MUC (or vcards, or even tunes, geolocation…)
  791. lovetox lol Holger, i definitly depend on that
  792. Holger So change this to a MUST and bump the namespace again? :-) mam:3 will be the one you can depend on, this time for real? :-)
  793. lovetox madness
  794. edhelas and naturally the messages containes <x> muc tags then I can differenciates vcards that are coming from resources
  795. daniel has left
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  797. edhelas could work no ?
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  800. arc Morning
  801. arc Its meeting time apparently , anyone else here?
  802. dwd arc, You're aware of TZ changes? I don't know what Board agreed WRT handling those.
  803. arc 1600utc this is the time
  804. Guus Indeed it is: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com
  805. Steve Kille has left
  806. Guus (I remember to have meticulously marked that in the calendar when the scheduling timezone thingy was discussed)
  807. arc Iirc I copied guus's calendar entry to my own
  808. dwd OK. It *is* Council at this time too. Also Martin is off sick, so he shouldn't be attending.
  809. arc What tz is council meeting at?
  810. jjrh has left
  811. Guus dwd: see calendar: you guys then agreed to do that in UTC too
  812. Guus Completely not up to me to change that, but please update the calendar if you do :)
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  819. moparisthebest are nonzas used in other places than CSI or defined someplace?
  820. jonasw moparisthebest, there are quite a few nonzas in RFC 6120
  821. jonasw (sasl, starttls, stream features, are there more?)
  822. moparisthebest doesn't actually mention the term 'nonza' though, but yea
  823. Kev I still believe nonza isn't a helpful term :)
  824. MattJ moparisthebest, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0360.html
  825. daniel has left
  826. moparisthebest ha I like how that comes *after* CSI
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  829. jonasw moparisthebest, careful, the term nonza is another thing where the community can be split in two halves.
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  832. Flow With most things you will find someone raising a voice against…
  833. Flow And of course having a well defined term for something we didn't have an unambiguously (short-)term before is very helpful
  834. moparisthebest 1. Nonzas MUST NOT be routed, i.e. they are only exchanged between the two endpoints of an XMPP stream. 2. Nonzas SHOULD NOT have a 'from' or 'to' attribute.
  835. moparisthebest hmm, so what if one wanted to introduce a new nonza-like thing but that did get routed with specific routing rules?
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  837. jonasw that’s a something-za then
  838. moparisthebest what would you call that, a rononza ?
  839. jonasw ronza?
  840. jonasw ;-)
  841. Flow moparisthebest, I'm not sure if you could introduce such a thing even if the nonza xep didn't exist
  842. jonasw frankly, with what you’re going for, I’d suggest inventing a new term, because neither nonza nor stanza is applicable
  843. jonasw (while stanza being strictly defined in RFC 6120 IIRC)
  844. SamWhited moparisthebest: that would be against 6120, if I'm not mistaken
  845. jonasw SamWhited, does RFC 6120 forbid routed elements wihch are not <iq/>, <message/> or <presence/>?
  846. Flow jonasw, not explicitly, but how is that supposed to work with federation?
  847. jonasw Flow, moparisthebest plans some negotiation
  848. SamWhited Oh, I thought it did explicitly, but maybe not
  849. Kev Flow: Same as everything else, with negotiation.
  850. moparisthebest yea it'd be opt-in
  851. Flow moparisthebest, what if the recipient is offline?
  852. Flow (it possibly would help if I knew what excactly you trying to achieve ;))
  853. moparisthebest onion xmpp, minimum-metadata xmpp, not sure, naming is one of the hard problems
  854. Flow but even then, if you do negotiation anyway you could just use an IQ or an extension element, which you probably should do anyway because those things get SM ack'd
  855. moparisthebest don't those have to have a from and to ?
  856. moparisthebest I guess maybe you could still hack it in
  857. Flow no
  858. moparisthebest <deliver to="otherserver.com">(this part is encrypted blob #1)<deliver to="jid@otherserver.com">(this part is encrypted blob #2)<message from="bob@bob.com" to="jid@otherserver.com">etc</message>(/end encrypted blob #2)</deliver>(/end encrypted blob #1)</deliver>
  859. moparisthebest that's something like what I'm thinking
  860. moparisthebest each server only knows the hops next to it, no single server knows which 2 clients are talking
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  862. Flow Nice idea
  863. moparisthebest hopefully in that way things like carbons/mam/offline/sm etc etc all work the same
  864. dwd moparisthebest, That's how Tor works, indeed. More or less.
  865. jonasw moparisthebest, wrapping everything in <message/> addressed to the next hop would probably work
  866. moparisthebest yea and from the one it can know probably
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  868. Flow and would give you SM greatness
  869. daniel has left
  870. jonasw ack
  871. jonasw (pun not intended)
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  874. moparisthebest <message to="otherserver.com">(this part is encrypted blob #1)<message to="jid@otherserver.com">(this part is encrypted blob #2)<message from="bob@bob.com" to="jid@otherserver.com">etc</message>(/end encrypted blob #2)</message>(/end encrypted blob #1)</message>
  875. dwd Where do you put the security label?
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  877. moparisthebest well you'd have to put those in a new tag inside message of course
  878. moparisthebest but that's the general idea
  879. jonasw that’ll be some nice overhead right there, base64 on every iteration :)
  880. Flow moparisthebest, I think the destination server should see the sender address
  881. moparisthebest and I think you get the key for otherserver.com from DNS
  882. moparisthebest well that's what you are trying to avoid Flow
  883. Flow you can possibly safely disguise the recipient from the senders server, but if the destination server doesn't know the sender address then it becomes easy to drain your mobiles battery
  884. moparisthebest would also have an odd side-effect, today you run 1 server for you and all contacts to minimize servers with full metadata
  885. moparisthebest this would only give you extra security with different servers
  886. Flow But that's a discussion from when the first wild ProtoXEP appears
  887. Flow *for
  888. moparisthebest Flow, yea and probably the only solution is 'would you like to recieve onion messages from someone at otherserver.com'
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  890. Flow mayben even not that, because that would also cause your mobile radio to power up
  891. moparisthebest your server would only ask you once
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  893. moparisthebest or, once every X when it already had an active connection or whatever
  894. Flow that could work
  895. jonasw hm, right, you can’t even filter by roster on the server side
  896. nyco board meeting?
  897. jonasw except if you put some keys into the roster, too
  898. moparisthebest nope no roster or precense or anything here
  899. moparisthebest and you'd never want to send other stanzas to each other
  900. jonasw moparisthebest, right
  901. jonasw I don’t like that
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  903. jonasw I don’t see how you can have this in a sane manner.
  904. moparisthebest it would involve a super extra level of opt-in :)
  905. jonasw which doesn’t push all the validation load on the client
  906. moparisthebest but also, precense isn't important anymore remember? :)
  907. moparisthebest conversations doesn't display it normally, for instance, and with offline/mam etc all working, no one cares
  908. jonasw moparisthebest, presence isn’t, but being able to filter messages by sender server-side is.
  909. jonasw spam filtering essentially
  910. moparisthebest yep you can only do by whole server this way
  911. jonasw yes, which is bad
  912. moparisthebest not really if it's opt-in
  913. jonasw I frankly don’t see this finding a serious user base
  914. Flow nyco, doesn't look like board meeting :(
  915. nyco indeed
  916. Guus Arc was here an hour ago
  917. nyco yep
  918. moparisthebest jonasw, when has that ever stopped a xep or code :)
  919. arc Nyco we're on UTC
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  921. nyco this changes the hour of availability
  922. dwd While daylight savings time is indeed daft, I don't think ignoring it is the solution - Council basically had to move because a UTC-pinned meeting ends up clashing for me (at least, every other week).
  923. nyco for me too
  924. nyco let's remove timezones already, one planet, one time
  925. SamWhited In the interest of making small, incremental changes let's remove DST first, then we can consider timezones.
  926. dwd Swatch Internet Time in Beats?
  927. nyco meanwhile we still have no board meeting...
  928. nyco ok, gotta go ;-)
  929. dwd nyco, As noted earlier, Martin's off sick so cannot (or rather should not) attend.
  930. jonasw you’re not his mom!kk
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  933. dwd jonasw, True, but I can get Laura to say the same.
  934. dwd (For the avoidance of doubt, Laura is not Martin's mum either)
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