XSF Discussion - 2017-11-09

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  14. Arc

    btw dwd why is being sick prevent someone from attending a board meeting?

  15. Arc

    a few weeks ago i went, and i was vomiting all night and coming down from a fever from shingles

  16. Arc

    its not like meetings are physically stressful

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  19. Zash

    I don't think we should be forcing people into things when they are sick

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  22. mathieui

    Arc, looking at a computer when you’re very tired or have any kind of physical ailment is not a pleasure

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  25. Arc

    Zash: i didnt say force, let them decide

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  28. Arc


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  30. moparisthebest

    Arc: you didn't see the council meeting earlier about bolding things

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  43. Zash

    Link Mauve: Can't you just chmod a+r the xep84 node, like people want with omemo?

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  127. Arc

    moparisthebest: ?

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  227. mathieui

    https://lists.fosdem.org/pipermail/fosdem/2017-October/002627.html FYI, in addition to the usual RTC room, FOSDEM also has a "Decentralized Internet & Privacy" which is also relevant for XMPP

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  308. daniel

    i just submitted a general 'what is xmpp and why do we need it' kind of talk to that devroom

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  318. daniel

    Has anyone else submitted something to either that room or the realtime room?

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  320. Guus

    (not that I'm aware of - It'd be nice if you could add your talk to our wiki page, so that we can keep track)

  321. daniel


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  325. Guus

    Thanks (I changed the table format a little for additional prettiness)

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  368. SamWhited

    daniel: I submitted something about the compliance suites

  369. jonasw

    SamWhited, re XEP-0114, I think if it needs changing at all, it could be moved to Advanced Server or Advanced IM Server, but given that it’s the only way to add components, and components can bring great value, I think it should stay in the compliance suites.

  370. SamWhited

    *nods* I don't know that it's critical or anything either and could be convinced either way

  371. jonasw

    it’s very useful for sure

  372. Kev

    I'm not convinced it needs to be in the compliance suites, really.

  373. Kev

    I'm not going to cry that it is, but I don't see a need.

  374. dwd

    Kev, Depends what you see a Compliance Suite as being. I see the Basic stuff as being stuff you be surprised wasn't supported, and I think that covers XEP-0114.

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  376. Kev

    I *think* if you use that as a metric, you can never remove anything from a compliance suite.

  377. Kev

    Because you would expect anyone implementing a new server to do all of Basic, and that makes it surprising that anything in Basic isn't implemented, which means it goes into Basic, and ...

  378. Kev

    Saying that, M-Link does have customers who use 114 still, so perhaps it really does belong in there.

  379. dwd

    Kev, I don't, to borrow your phrase, disagree.

  380. dwd

    Kev, But even Metre does XEP-0114, so I don't really see why it'd be contentious to include.

  381. jonasw


  382. Kev

    Yeah, I've changed my mind. It probably does belong in there, although I'd be low-F about it being removed.

  383. Kev

    It's moderately widely used and useful.

  384. Guus

    it makes for a nice tool to platform-independently add server-sided functionality. I've never quite got why it didn't take-off more.

  385. jonasw

    Guus, lack of auth and crypto

  386. jonasw

    requires you to have things on the same host basically

  387. Guus

    jonasw: "take off" as in developed further.

  388. jonasw


  389. jonasw

    then maybe because that’s still good enough for many people

  390. Ge0rG

    I think component support is much more important than avatars. But then again...

  391. Guus

    although you can do direct-tls easily

  392. jonasw

    Guus, with extra proxies?

  393. Guus


  394. jonasw

    how’d you do direct-tls?

  395. Guus

    open a server-sided socket that immediately does TLS?

  396. Guus

    c2s 5223-like?

  397. jonasw

    sure, but that’s not specified, is it?

  398. Guus

    ah, no, not as far as I know

  399. Guus

    actually, wasn't there a follow-up xep somehwere?

  400. dwd

    jonasw, It has TLS, at least on most servers.

  401. jonasw

    dwd, maybe I missed that

  402. dwd

    jonasw, As for auth, yes. Failing issue, there. XEP-0225 tried to address that, but nobody used that.

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  404. dwd

    jonasw, So XEP-0114's examples all use 0.9 - no version number, so no features. But in practise, if a component sends a version='1.0', then it gets features, usually including TLS.

  405. jonasw

    I admit that I’m not familiar with how components work that way

  406. jonasw

    I assumed that they only do what’s written in XEP-0114 :)

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  409. MattJ

    Pretty sure Prosody only does what's in XEP-0114, but fippo had a patch for it

  410. MattJ

    Not really sure how I feel about it

  411. dwd

    I can't actually recall what Openfire does, despite having a look ages ago.

  412. Zash

    Is there a difference between 114 + features and 225?

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  414. Guus

    I'm pretty sure that Openfire doesn't do much beyond 114 either.

  415. dwd

    Zash, Authentication is SASL. And the namespace is jabber:client.

  416. jonasw

    nice though, wouldn’t that allow multiplexing of component and client connections on the same port without magic?

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  418. dwd

    jonasw, Yes, and I'm really not sure that's sensible either.

  419. Zash

    Abolish jabber:{client,server}! Single unified namespace!

  420. Zash

    The Real XMPP 2.0! :)

  421. dwd

    Zash, As with so many things, it's a solved problem now.

  422. dwd

    Zash, Well, except when I cock it up.

  423. Zash


  424. Zash

    Did you mean: "It's such a minor problem that nobody will ever bother fixing it"

  425. dwd

    Zash, I mean, no matter how big a problem it is when starting out, everyone has solved it now so there's little point in going through the effort of changing it now.

  426. Flow

    Does xep225 allow multiplexing multiple component domains over the same component connection?

  427. zinid

    Flow: yes

  428. zinid

    iirc :)

  429. zinid

    at least I remember something about it when I was implementing it

  430. SamWhited

    Doesn't everyone just ignore the namespace anyways? (I'm actually curious, I can't think why it matters but maybe stone people respect it)?

  431. SamWhited

    *some people

  432. zinid

    Flow: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0225.html#bind

  433. Zash

    Ignore the namespace? What blasphemy is this?!

  434. dwd

    SamWhited, Openfire ignores and strips it, whereas Metre (and maybe others?) internally dispatch elements based on the namespace.

  435. zinid

    it cannot be ignored everywhere

  436. zinid

    in some places you need to know the namespace

  437. dwd

    SamWhited, Well, I say "maybe others", but M-Link dispatched based on the qualified name as a whole when I worked on it.

  438. SamWhited

    Makes sense; I do dispatch based on payload namespaces but not the stanza level ones, but I guess you could mix server/client handlers and use the stanza level ones too

  439. Flow

    zinid, hmm, ok, but it doesn't explicitly mention that multiple <bind/>s are allowed

  440. Flow

    or did I miss that?

  441. zinid

    Flow: "A component can send a subsequent bind request to bind another hostname (a server MUST support binding of multiple hostnames)."

  442. dwd

    Flow, Oh, multiple bind was another thing. Not sure where that ended up, but it was a terribly idea I thought.

  443. Flow

    ahh its in there

  444. Flow


  445. dwd

    zinid, Oh, it stayed in there?

  446. zinid

    dwd: as you see :)

  447. zinid

    Section 4, example 4

  448. Flow

    dwd, what's wrong with it?

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  450. Ge0rG

    It's a nice path for many security vulns

  451. dwd

    Flow, From a security standpoint, it makes lots of things awkward. We were talking about having it on C2S sessions more generally, which is worse.

  452. zinid

    actually a customer wanted this multiple binding, that's why we implemented xep-0225 in commercial version of ejabberd

  453. MattJ

    Multiple binding for c2s used to be standardized, possibly in the RFCs, I forget

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  455. dwd

    MattJ, I thought we documented it and then abandoned. ProtoXEP perhaps, or possibly I-D?

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  457. MattJ


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  462. dwd

    All the way to Draft.

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  528. moparisthebest

    I was confused by the whack API seemingly letting you bind a transport to multiple hostnames, I'd never heard of that before

  529. moparisthebest

    that explains it though

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  531. moparisthebest

    uh, bind a component*

  532. moparisthebest

    hmm got my first xmpp spam that was just a link to pastebin.com

  533. moparisthebest

    good luck filtering that on keywords

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