XSF Discussion - 2017-11-13

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  15. Link Mauve “01:44:52 Zash> Link Mauve: Can't you just chmod a+r the xep84 node, like people want with omemo?”, and willingly give away your JID in your MUC presence so that other participants can find it? ^^
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  26. Link Mauve I just added a page for an event we’ll be part of, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Capitole_du_Libre_2017
  27. Link Mauve It’s next weekend, Guus, could we get a stock of stickers in time for this event? :x
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  29. Link Mauve I’ll try to get other things as well, for example a French translation of Arc’s Prosody booklet, and maybe stickers of ours.
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  61. Guus Link Mauve: sure. Send me a shipping address.
  62. edhelas Guus o/
  63. edhelas we need to prepare a bit for T-DOSE as well :)
  64. Guus edhelas: yes. Suggestions?
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  99. Arc holy crap, im on live internet video
  100. Arc https://video.nest.com/embedded/live/ctrlh1
  101. jonasw congrats or so? :-)
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  104. Guus If I click this link, everyone better had their clothes on, Arc...
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  107. jonasw :D
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  109. jonasw Arc, which one of that is you? :-)
  110. Guus He's the one sitting down.
  111. Guus did he bring his own french coffee press?
  112. Guus oh, shh, he's looking!
  113. Guus oh, false alarm.
  114. Guus I could do this all day! ;)
  115. Arc i brought it here to stay here, but yes. its for tea
  116. Guus woah - quite a bit of lag.
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  119. Arc yea, a few seconds
  120. jonasw tea!
  121. jonasw building a tea-machine with CLI interface so that I can write down tea-instructions as makefiles is on my long-term todo :)
  122. Guus jonasw, you need a (different) hobby.
  123. Guus I mean, CLIs are so passé.
  124. edhelas jonasw why not write a XEP for that ?
  125. jonasw Guus, trivial to make anything on top of CLI :)
  126. Zash Guus: NO U
  127. edhelas Makefile Over XMPP
  128. jonasw edhelas, HTCPCP over XMPP?
  129. Arc Rust!
  130. Zash Arc: Moldy tea? Sounds awful
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  132. Guus He just put away his laptop - probably won't respond :)
  133. Guus I like my new Big Brother role :)
  134. jonasw Big Guus
  135. jonasw Guus, edhelas, also, a CLI tool could just be a frontend to an XMPP client sending commands ;-
  136. jonasw Guus, edhelas, also, a CLI tool could just be a frontend to an XMPP client sending commands ;-)
  137. Guus excuses!
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  148. arc Heh
  149. arc Rustlang
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  153. Link Mauve Guus, do you prefer one in France or in the UK? (CC: mathieui.)
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  155. mathieui one what?
  156. Link Mauve Shipping address for SCAM material.
  157. Link Mauve Or maybe it would be more prudent to ship directly to the friend hosting us?
  158. Link Mauve Guus, how long would it take to ship them, generally?
  159. Guus Link Mauve: I don't care. You should account for a couple of days delivery time
  160. mathieui well, unless it arrives on saturday, it doesn’t change much
  161. Link Mauve For me it has to arrive on Friday morning at the latest.
  162. Guus Link Mauve: I have little experience - I think Daniel received his after two days. That was NL->DE
  163. Ge0rG wouldn't it be cheaper and faster to order material from a local printing shop?
  164. Guus Link Mauve: no promises other than that I will send it today.
  165. edhelas Guus you'll bring goodies for T-DOSE BTW ?
  166. Guus Georg: I have them pre-printed, shipping doesn't cost much.
  167. Link Mauve Ge0rG, it may be, and we’re going to print some ourselves as well (French conference).
  168. Ge0rG Link Mauve: what's the difference, accents all over "XMPP"? :D
  169. Link Mauve :p
  170. edhelas imèmpépaÿ
  171. edhelas *ixèmpépaÿ
  172. daniel printing something that is comparable in quality is pretty expensive. while shipping is not
  173. Ge0rG zímpŷ
  174. Link Mauve Ge0rG, JabberFR is pretty well-known around here, so we’ll probably stickers with our logo, and also a translated flyer of Arc’s Prosody setup.
  175. Link Mauve Ge0rG, JabberFR is pretty well-known around here, so we’ll probably print stickers with our logo, and also a translated flyer of Arc’s Prosody setup.
  176. Ge0rG X̲͍̬̺M̰͔͉̼̹̲̯Ṕ̭ͭ̿P̟͉̤̮̥̺̍ :D
  177. Link Mauve Guus, ok, so: Emmanuel Gil Peyrot 19 Victoria Road CB4 3BW Cambridge United Kingdom
  178. Link Mauve Guus, ok, so: Emmanuel Gil Peyrot 19 Victoria Road CB4 3BW Cambridge, Cambridgeshire United Kingdom
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  181. Guus Link Mauve: just the stickers, or also Arc' leaflet (I've got English ones only)
  182. Link Mauve Hmm, maybe a few English ones, I’m sure there will be some non-French people around.
  183. Link Mauve mathieui, any idea for the amount? I’ve never been to that particular event.
  184. Guus I've sent Daniel 100, I think.
  185. Guus If you don't put them on the table all at once, they'll last longer :)
  186. Guus (stickers, that is)
  187. mathieui 100 sound good
  188. zinid what stickers/
  189. zinid is it a meme or something here?
  190. Link Mauve Guus, sure. :)
  191. Link Mauve zinid, the things you can put on the back of your laptop.
  192. Ge0rG I didn't know XMPP had stickers support
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  195. zinid but I don't have a laptop...
  196. zinid fridge is ok?
  197. Ge0rG yeah
  198. Guus 100 stickers, 20 english folders (the folders are bulkier to send - I'd be happy to send as many as you want, but if you don't need them, I'd rather prevent have to find suitable envelopes :)
  199. Guus will that do, Link Mauve?
  200. Link Mauve Guus, yup, should be fine, thanks!
  201. Guus ok. Will send them this afternoon.
  202. mathieui thanks!
  203. Guus np
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  220. Guus Jonasw the library list on the website isn't validated against the list of known platforms - is that by design?
  221. Guus (I'm not bothered by it - just checking)
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  223. Ge0rG I think we had a discussion about "platforms" for libraries being harder to pinpoint than for applications
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  234. jonasw Guus, isn’t it? I thought it was
  235. jonasw ah right
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  240. Ge0rG MattJ: what about making MAM response messages type=headline?
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  253. Guus Link Mauve: two envelopes on their way.
  254. Link Mauve Yay, thanks!
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  265. moparisthebest jonasw: is there ever more to making tea than boiling water and dropping a tea bag in there for a bit?
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  267. Zash Dangerous statement to make near any brits
  268. mathieui teabags? blasphemy
  269. Link Mauve My monocle just fell.
  270. SamWhited > My monocle just fell. I'm really glad that stereotype translates across the channel as well as it doors across the Atlantic, that made me laugh.
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  275. Ge0rG I just wondered if that stereotype will be still understandable in the next 10-20 years, but then I realized that most of us know monocles from TV anyway, not from real-life.
  276. Zash I should get monocle
  277. mathieui My monocycle just fell
  278. Zash *monoclepop*
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  280. jonasw moparisthebest, :-O
  281. jonasw (a) timing, and (b) teabags?! heresy!
  282. moparisthebest Zash: I refrained from mentioning I then ice it and put in copious amounts of sugar for fear of British retribution
  283. jonasw moparisthebest, that has its uses and would also be amazing if automated
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  286. dwd moparisthebest, Making tea is just boiling water, a teabag, a mug, and some milk once ready.
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  289. Ge0rG ewww, milk!
  290. dwd moparisthebest, I know some people like to faff about a bit with loose tea and so on, but it basically tastes the same whether decent tea leaves are in a bag or not.
  291. dwd Ge0rG, Yes, of course. Otherwise Wrong.
  292. moparisthebest some people put milk in coffee here, never seen that with tea, it's funny how little things like that are totally different in different places
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  295. Ge0rG I've tried tea with milk once or twice, and it was a shocking experience.
  296. jonasw it really depends on the tea
  297. dwd moparisthebest, Totally wrong in some places you mean.
  298. jonasw some Assam with milk -- great. earl grey with milk -- eww
  299. moparisthebest is there more than one kind of tea? /sarcasm :)
  300. dwd jonasw, Ah, I was worried you were about to suggest that fruit infusions were tea.
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  302. jonasw dwd, eww fruit infusions
  303. dwd jonasw, In which case, obviously, you'd have been Wrong many times over.
  304. moparisthebest I only ever drink warm/hot tea when I'm sick once or twice a year
  305. moparisthebest sweet tea though, that's a different story
  306. dwd moparisthebest, That is a bizarre American thing. Probably not helped by being inflicted by Lipton's Yellow Label and not any of the decent stuff.
  307. Ge0rG do two Wrongs make one Right?
  308. dwd Yellow Label is both the world's most popular tea, and simultaneously not sold in the UK because we like halfway decent stuff.
  309. moparisthebest is uh, 'sun tea' a thing elsewhere?
  310. dwd Ge0rG, Well, tea without milk is Wrong, and fruit infusions are Wrong, obviously, but fruit infusions without milk is curiously less Wrong than with milk.
  311. moparisthebest on a hot summer day we put tea bags and water in a clear glass jar and sit it in the sun all day
  312. moparisthebest then of course sugar and refrigerate it
  313. dwd moparisthebest, Not seen that one before. Can't really see why you'd want to do that over just boiling water through teabags. (Through would have the same effect of reducing the tannins, which you probably want for ice tea variants).
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  316. mathieui I ordered iced tea in the US, was expecting the lipton peach soda, came out with half a gallon of bad tea with ice
  317. SamWhited > Probably not helped by being inflicted by Lipton's Yellow Label and not any of the decent stuff. That's the point, sweet tea requires a little bit of really crappy tea with your sugar! It's just how things work.
  318. SamWhited If you're using good tea you're doing it wrong.
  319. Ge0rG it looks like the controversy about tea is even larger than the controversy about MIX
  320. mathieui maybe this could go in the council agenda
  321. SamWhited Although, while Lipton is acceptable, you need Tetly if you want really good sweet tea. Trust a man who grew up in Georgia.
  322. jonasw what’s georgia
  323. jonasw ;-)
  324. dwd You have Tetley's?
  325. dwd jonasw, Country just south of Russia.
  326. SamWhited We are the home of sweet tea, comrade!
  327. Ge0rG In Soviet Russia, there was only bad Chinese tea.
  328. arc OK that's it, xmpp tea room must happen now
  329. SamWhited dwd: I'm not sure if it's the same, it's the generic bad black tea blend though, not any directrix type
  330. SamWhited *sigh* phones.
  331. SamWhited Can't type.
  332. dwd I think they only do the one thing. Presumably not advertised by Yorkshiremen in flat caps in Georgia, though?
  333. SamWhited http://www.tetleyusa.com/Components/Files/ProductImage/040214125141-mainclassic_black_tea_l.jpg
  334. arc That's actually kind of a brilliant thing for a con, instead of a plain old booth, host a tea room.
  335. dwd SamWhited, Same company, all right. Here it's https://www.tetley.co.uk/our-teas/our-full-range
  336. SamWhited Ah yup, that's the one. They're also very popular here (but only for iced and sweet tea)
  337. SamWhited Well, "here", I'm in Texas now and that's not really the same, sweet tea confuses places here.
  338. mathieui arc, offering hot tea at fosdem sounds like a plan
  339. Link Mauve arc, the Quadrature du Net does that at CCC.
  340. dwd arc, We could use Lloyd's XMPP code for controlling the kettle, too.
  341. mathieui (tbh the concept has been quite pioneered by the "quadrateahouse" at each international CCC event)
  342. Link Mauve It’s a great way to get random people to discuss together.
  343. Zash XEP it!
  344. SamWhited I thought teapots all implemented HTTP via RFC 2324?
  345. Zash Extensible Tea and Coffee Protocol
  346. Link Mauve Zash, sounds way too syn and ack ridden.
  347. Zash Pfft, HTTP, who uses that anymore?
  348. Ge0rG can't we just have somebody publish the beverages?
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  350. Zash <stream:tea to="ge0rg">...
  351. arc Bulk tea is cheap. Dirt cheap
  352. Ge0rG Is that RFC 2324 compatible?
  353. SamWhited I do like this idea … xmpp tea room. I hope I can actually make it to the summit, we'll see. Trying to convince my company, but probably only can if one of my talks is accepted.
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  358. dwd Erm. Did disco#item elements once have an "action" attribute?
  359. dwd Probably one for ralphm, Kev.
  360. dwd Perhaps zinid too. Basically it's before my time anyway.
  361. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/jep-0030-2.1.html
  362. Zash Looks like a yes
  363. Zash No older versions than 2.1 available? :(
  364. dwd Ah, part of disco#publish. Also supported by Openfire. :-)
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  366. Zash Wait, what
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  369. dwd Zash, Our Pubsub code has various bits in saying the spec isn't stable and might change, too. It's like archeology sometimes.
  370. Zash Version 2.4 (2008-06-06) Per Council consensus, removed disco-publish feature (implementations should use publish-subscribe instead).
  371. dwd Zash, Yup. Openfire did make that jump. But still has disco#publish support knocking about - mosly, I suspect, where it hasn't been removed.
  372. Zash I wasn't even aware this had existed
  373. jonasw fun
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  375. dwd Zash, I was dimly aware of disco#publish. Enough to vote to strip it while I was on Council, apparently.
  376. Zash Before my time
  377. dwd Zash, I stood for the first time in 2007. Fiercly contested election, back then: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2007
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  385. ralphm dwd: but even disco push didn't require an action attribute
  386. ralphm Don't think we had that attribute
  387. ralphm Oh, just saw the old version. Never mind
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  390. dwd ralphm, Yeah. I don't think Openfire has this quite right even so, but it's probably been lying in wait for years.
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  404. Ge0rG Can we have that "MUC" vs "Group Chat" vs "Conference" discussion on standards@ instead of on twitter, please?
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  407. moparisthebest I suppose it depends on whether your intended audience is twitter users or not
  408. jonasw which discussion?
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  414. daniel can we have the official twitter account RT please?
  415. daniel not sure whats wrong about twitter
  416. daniel you should be glad i didn't post that on instagram
  417. zinid daniel: 140 characters
  418. daniel zinid, 280!
  419. zinid zOMG
  420. daniel and it's a poll
  421. daniel you should just say a or b
  422. jonasw daniel, what twitter?
  423. jonasw I have no idea what you’re all talking about (that’s wrong with twitter)
  424. zinid what is twitter?
  425. daniel https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/930101092565872640
  426. Kev daniel: "Chat" if you want the least confusing to users, in my experience. Although we call them Rooms in Swift.
  427. Ge0rG My twitter client didn't show it's a poll - nor the options.
  428. daniel is your twitter client an rss reader?
  429. Ge0rG no, it's an actual twitter client, from a third party.
  430. zinid damn, I don't even have an account in twitter
  431. Ge0rG Why isn't there an XMPP-based microblogging plattform?
  432. mathieui zinid, get on with the times, grandad
  433. Ge0rG Kev: isn't "Chat" ambiguous, in that it might mean a "private chat" as well?
  434. Kev It is.
  435. zinid mathieui: so you call this bloated crap with retarded limitiations "the times", okay...
  436. edhelas Ge0rG you mean a Web client that implement the XEP 277 ? :-°
  437. daniel ironically i think twitter is mostly millennials and older?
  438. daniel i think kids these days are on other platforms
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  440. Ge0rG edhelas: no, I mean something that has a name and that will be recognized by most people in this MUC
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  442. edhelas feels disapointed :(
  443. jonasw Ge0rG, does that ambiguity matter?
  444. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm not sure.
  445. edhelas Ge0rG you don't think that Movim fullfill your requirements ?
  446. Ge0rG I've been in that position ("how to name MUCs") some months ago, and I went with "Group chat"
  447. Ge0rG edhelas: I tried it once, but it didn't allow me to see NSFW content because of prosody :(
  448. Ge0rG And then my phone died or somesuch.
  449. edhelas wut
  450. Holger Movim kills phones?
  451. Ge0rG No, unrelated event.
  452. zinid so sad story
  453. Ge0rG Yeah. Sad.
  454. daniel there is nsfw content on movim?
  455. Ge0rG daniel: I never was able to figure that out.
  456. edhelas who merged this feature in Movim, that's you Holger ?
  457. zinid daniel: mostly gayish
  458. daniel what?
  459. edhelas there's no NSFW content on Movim, there's NSFW content on the XMPP network :o
  460. zinid daniel: do you really want a link? :)
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  462. Ge0rG I think that the more important thing than naming a MUC is naming a JID.
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  464. daniel i'd prefer not to ender my xmpp credentials into some website...
  465. daniel *enter
  466. zinid and rename XEP back to JEP, plz
  467. mathieui Ge0rG, "address"
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  469. edhelas there's 2 difficults things in XMPP, naming things and send bold characters in chat
  470. Ge0rG mathieui: "user address"? "account address"? "jabber address"?
  471. Ge0rG mathieui: my address is a postal one.
  472. Ge0rG edhelas: LOL
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  474. jonasw oh dear, I’m afraid of this becoming a meme :)
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  477. Ge0rG jonasw: fortunately, there is no way to send links to XMPP messages.
  478. jonasw isn’t there?
  479. jonasw https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html
  480. mathieui jonasw, btw, didn’t you have to make some tweaks to CCG after implementing it in poezio?
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  482. jonasw mathieui, just pushed them, waiting for the docker hub build
  483. Ge0rG jonasw: we don't even have solved message IDs.
  484. jonasw Ge0rG, before solving message IDs, let’s solve message routing
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  486. Ge0rG jonasw: right.
  487. daniel is this scheduled before or after world peace?
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  489. jonasw difficult to compare things to NaN
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  492. ralphm Ge0rG: XMPP is all about distributed systems and decentralization. Why would we need to discuss particular topics in one place only?
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  495. jonasw ralphm, especially in this situation having a central discussion venue is vital.
  496. jonasw it helps the various distributed entities to have a common view on things
  497. jonasw which is important for interop
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  502. Ge0rG ralphm: nothing wrong with that, except that most of our distributed venues are not based on XMPP anyway.
  503. daniel well twitter is mostly about user engagement and marketing. it's not meant to have a meaningful discussion
  504. marc has joined
  505. ralphm I don't see a problem with that. Each communication medium has different properties. I like e-mail for long-form discussions, but don't like it for IM-style usage (which I see a lot in corporations). Twitter is nice for public snippets. XMPP is good as a basis for building IM systems.
  506. ralphm There are a bunch of things I like about Slack
  507. ralphm (which could totally be build on top of XMPP)
  508. Ge0rG if only we had a proper slack clone on top of XMPP
  509. ralphm Go fund a team to make it
  510. ralphm It is not a technology issue at all
  511. Ge0rG I know.
  512. Ge0rG People are reinventing IM all the time, and burning venture capital on the way.
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  515. ralphm I disagree this is a waste of money. Also I don't care how VCs spend their money.
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  518. ralphm Slack has a useful proposition that makes it more viable for teams like mine at work to collaborate than if we had to use any current offering based on XMPP.
  519. ralphm Of course there are a bunch of things I don't like about it.
  520. ralphm E.g. I think their channels should be more like MIX, with orthogonal streams of data
  521. ralphm Now I have to ~force~ educate people to not put notifications of integrations into the same channel as where discussions happen.
  522. Ge0rG ralphm: I'm pretty sure there is a market niche for a Slack clone that is deployed on premise and can be configured to follow archival / access policies.
  523. ralphm Yes
  524. Ge0rG And XMPP has all the building blocks for that.
  525. moparisthebest what does it give you other than the bots for integration? (over a XMPP MUC)
  526. Ge0rG But people rather do it on top of HTTP REST JSON.
  527. ralphm moparisthebest: what Slack offers to us?
  528. moparisthebest yes
  529. Ge0rG moparisthebest: Slack is easy to "deploy"
  530. zinid Because xmpp is complex
  531. moparisthebest in the same way as it's easy to just use a public xmpp server and muc I guess, that can't be the reason?
  532. Ge0rG moparisthebest: have you ever used Slack? And any of the XMPP client offerings?
  533. Ge0rG moparisthebest: there is a world of a difference, UX wise
  534. ralphm moparisthebest: consistent UI across platforms, including desktop, easy to configure integrations (even by non-technical people), search, rich(er) formatting, snippets, mentions, team-mentions, (automatic) snoozing, reminders, (custom) emoji, emoji responses, unlimited editing/deletion of previously sent messages.
  535. moparisthebest no I haven't used slack that's why I'm asking :)
  536. Ge0rG moparisthebest: try it out for a week or two
  537. moparisthebest unlimited editing/deletion of previous messages isn't a security problem?
  538. moparisthebest especially for companies that must keep records or whatever?
  539. ralphm moparisthebest: at this point in time, anyone developing XMPP clients or servers, or participates in the standards discussions thereof, should use Slack to understand what we're up against.
  540. ralphm I am tempted to disqualify people's opinion based on that.
  541. Ge0rG ralphm: I agree
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  543. jonasw good, we need a team which does that kind of research
  544. jonasw because I cannot take any client serious which only runs in the browser.
  545. Ge0rG Slack is the mirror that's held up to XMPP client developers to show how they failed.
  546. moparisthebest what if it's against your religion to use proprietary software? :)
  547. ralphm moparisthebest: enlightenment?
  548. Ge0rG moparisthebest: then pay somebody to use it and look at them doing it.
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  550. ralphm Ge0rG: I think limiting that to just XMPP client devs is not fair.
  551. Ge0rG ralphm: maybe, but in the context of the XSF it is a very valid limitation.
  552. moparisthebest other's opinions are helpful anyway, I can open slack, but if I'm not using it daily or in a team or whatever I can't really get a good feel over what it does better or worse
  553. ralphm jonasw: totally, you at least need browser, iOS and Android. Desktop apps seem to be a thing still. I heard that my Mac using colleagues use the desktop version of Slack. I just run it in the browser.
  554. moparisthebest plenty of people seem to like riot.im, I found it confusing after a few minutes and quit
  555. Ge0rG I'd even go as far as to say that renaming from JSF to XSF and thus shifting focus away from software to protocol was a bad idea.
  556. ralphm moparisthebest: I agree it helps if you need it for work or another shared project where there is regular usage.
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  558. SamWhited You should start a new JSF, the XMPP Software Foundation (also called XSF).
  559. ralphm Ge0rG: that's disingenious. The XSF/JSF has always been about standards.
  560. Ge0rG ralphm: I think that it's rather easy to port a modern web app onto the Electron operating system, so having [web, ios, android] might suffice.
  561. SamWhited stops being unhelpful and goes back to actual work.
  562. Ge0rG SamWhited: I'd call it the Jabber Software Foundation and focus on IM client interop.
  563. ralphm Ge0rG: we didn't do much about software, but named it like Apache. The furthest we got was hosting JabberStudio.
  564. moparisthebest ah yes that's what I want, a chat client that uses more resources than my java IDE
  565. moparisthebest oh wait I have that, it's called running a windows 7 VM just for lync :'(
  566. Ge0rG ralphm: my point is: we are sorely missing an entity that has a focus on software and UX of XMPP
  567. Kev Ge0rG: Me :p
  568. moparisthebest I thought I'd seen a lot of focus on UX lately Ge0rG
  569. Ge0rG moparisthebest: you mean the Styles XEP?
  570. moparisthebest not everyone has to focus on the same thing
  571. Ge0rG Kev: then you know the answer to daniel's initial question on how to name MUCs?
  572. moparisthebest well yea that's a good example, but also UX considerations in other XEPs
  573. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I'm trying to push UX in the XSF for around two years now, and more often than not I hear the "we are about protocols, not UIs" response.
  574. Kev Ge0rG: I use 'rooms'. Users tend to use different terms based on their backgrounds - we come up against 'chats' quite a lot.
  575. moparisthebest ah I don't think I've seen that
  576. ralphm 'room', 'chat room', 'group', 'group chat', 'or 'channel' are just fine
  577. daniel has left
  578. ralphm '
  579. Ge0rG ralphm: just fine for whom?
  580. moparisthebest I don't know why you couldn't make a few UX standards recommendations in XEPs, some do right?
  581. daniel has left
  582. ralphm Ge0rG: people. WhatsApp uses group. Slack uses channel.
  583. Ge0rG ralphm: if you are helping a friend configure an XMPP client over the phone, do you tell them to look for rooms, chatrooms, group chats, channels or all of the above?
  584. ralphm Facebook had a thing called Rooms
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  587. Ge0rG I think it wouldn't hurt to standardize on a name for those, and even to provide some i18n lookups for that name.
  588. moparisthebest Ge0rG, you ask what client first and go from there I guess
  589. ralphm So this is the problem right, unlike Slack or WhatsApp, there's not a single entity creating XMPP-based IM clients.
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  592. Ge0rG moparisthebest: so I need to remember the client->name mapping for all commonly used XMPP clients?
  593. jonasw moparisthebest, haha
  594. moparisthebest or, you do what you suggested Ge0rG , and write one-client-to-rule-them-all using electron or whatever the hot framework of the day is, and have everyone use that?
  595. Ge0rG moparisthebest: that's not what I suggest.
  596. jonasw moparisthebest, I find it amazing how ignorant people can be about the software they’re using and how hard it can be to figure out what they use.
  597. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I suggest to have a common glossary for client developers, see https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Usability/Glossary
  598. jonasw they just use jabber and it takes time to figure out they run xabber/yaxim/conversations.
  599. intosi Ge0rG: if I'm helping friends, I tend to use the wrong terms anyway, as different operating systems use different names for everything, and different translations vary wildly. My friends and family can usually cope just fine :)
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  602. Ge0rG intosi: I'm sure you have smart friends & family :)
  603. moparisthebest if I'm helping a friend set up xmpp over the phone I'll be telling them to install conversations and then go from there most likely
  604. moparisthebest if you are walking them through at that level you have to know more details meh
  605. ralphm I would probably not ever suggest 'conference' as a name, unless it was about AV ones
  606. moparisthebest Ge0rG, I think a glossary is a great idea
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  608. Ge0rG It's called Multi-User Chat.
  609. ralphm I have a hard time helping my family and friends anyway, because they use apps in Dutch, which I hate.
  610. Ge0rG or short "MUC" - a term that really nobody outside of the core XMPP community can relate to
  611. intosi ^ with ralphm on that
  612. Ge0rG If we had a database of jabber-related terms and their translations, you could use those when on support duty :P
  613. moparisthebest that's a different problem actually, translating technical terms sounds rough
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  617. ralphm That's why you shouldn't use them
  618. ralphm Group or Room translate really well
  619. Zash ralphm: And then comes "MIX"
  620. moparisthebest maybe you provide 1 UI since the user doesn't care, it's all a 'Group' to them
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  623. moparisthebest I am basically the last person to try to make UI decisions, I can tell if I like something or not, but that's it
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  625. moparisthebest I'm the only one I know personally that's been using KDE for the last 11 years, for example
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  627. ralphm Zash: for MIX the concept is still Room
  628. daniel has left
  629. ralphm You can even make MIX rooms be accessible via MUC if you put in the engineering effort
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  631. dwd ralphm, I think MIX is Channel, but yeah.
  632. ralphm ok
  633. Ge0rG dwd: is that different from MUC?
  634. ralphm So yeah, we have MUC Rooms and MIX Channels
  635. dwd Ge0rG, MUC talks about Rooms. MIX talks about Channels, as I recall.
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  637. Ge0rG dwd: why should we use different terms? To a user, it's all the same
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  640. ralphm It doesn't matter much, and if you really care, we could change it before going to Draft
  641. ralphm You'd have to rename some elements, though
  642. Ge0rG I'm not sure you need to map XEP language into the UI 1:1
  643. moparisthebest what does what the protocol calls protocol-level things have to do with UI ?
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  645. Ge0rG got to go. read you later.
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  649. dwd Nice if they align, though. Makes it much simpler for newcomers.
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  683. Flow lovetox: regarding your question yesterday: Does that https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/541 suit your needs?
  684. jonasw Flow, any reason you went for a patch-level version number increase?
  685. jonasw I would like to get semver-like versioning in XEPs, if possible.
  686. jonasw this feels more like a 0.3 than a 0.2.1 to me
  687. lovetox flow yes this solves the problem, but then it seems even harder to solve the use case about invalidating keys
  688. lovetox because now you have no notifications at all anymore after sub
  689. lovetox i think if we design this, we should at least make distributing and retracting keys have a good workflow
  690. lovetox i think there is no way around having something like a metanode
  691. lovetox that tells us new keys are there and old keys should be rewoked
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  695. Flow lovetox, the service still would send notifications if a new item is added, no?
  696. lovetox em no?
  697. lovetox last published item is set to on_sub or never
  698. Flow jonasw, I don't care that mutch, but then again, it rather had the deferred status change a patch level
  699. Flow lovetox, isn't send_last_published_item a per node setting?
  700. jonasw Flow, did you mean "I’d rather have had the deferred status change a patch level"?
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  702. Flow and, I think a PubSub server would still send notifications on publish, regardless of the value of send_last_published_item
  703. Flow jonasw, that yes :)
  704. lovetox but we dont receive that publish if we are not online
  705. jonasw Flow, I’m not set on the version change level for deferrals, really. I’m not sure if minor or patch makes more sense.
  706. Flow lovetox, why not?
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  708. jonasw I’m happy with changing it to patch, nobody else voiced concern about that yet.
  709. Flow …if your service stores offline messages
  710. jonasw Changing normative language should, imo, most of the time be minor level or major level, depending.
  711. lovetox flow this is seems like totally new territory
  712. lovetox now suddenly the xep depends on offline message, and mam
  713. Flow lovetox, also you could still query the node, that is how it was meant to be used primarly
  714. lovetox i thought we polling xeps are bad
  715. Flow You shouldn't really try to rely on having received the latest status of the node
  716. Flow lovetox, depends on the case i'd say
  717. jonasw polling is annoying
  718. Flow all generalization are bad
  719. jonasw that’s not true! ;-)
  720. lovetox Flow, it seems you try really hard to make your approach at this work
  721. Flow lovetox, I haven't heard an alternative
  722. Flow you said something like the "do the OMEMO approach", but I think OMEMO also uses PEP?
  723. lovetox i did that at least 3 times now
  724. Flow lovetox, must have missed it
  725. lovetox introduce a metanode
  726. lovetox clients publish valid keyids to it
  727. Flow brb
  728. lovetox clients receive these on every start
  729. Zash "on_presence"?
  730. lovetox yes
  731. lovetox then clients do a poll at node:keyid if the dont know the key id
  732. lovetox and get the key
  733. lovetox that way you have minimal traffic, 2 or 3 keyids is small
  734. lovetox and only have to pull keys if they are new to you
  735. lovetox at the same moment you could say, every key that is not inside the metanode, has to be retracted
  736. Flow I had to think about it a bit more, and I'd like to see a list discussion regarding this
  737. Zash What's the context here?
  738. Flow Zash, OX sending the full OpenPGP pubkey on every available presncen if you don't configure the node to not do so
  739. Flow lovetox, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea
  740. Flow please post on list
  741. lovetox i already have haha, but i dig it out again and write something :)
  742. Zash So you'd like something like how the avatars and stuff works?
  743. lovetox yes shit, why didnt i thought of it, thats way easier way to describe it
  744. lovetox its exactly like avatars work
  745. jonasw :D
  746. jonasw I wonder whether there should be an informational XEP for bulk storage in PEP
  747. jonasw so that people writing XEPs have something to base their work on
  748. lovetox Flow, we really should get this going, people are annoyed by OMEMOs perfect forward secrecy
  749. Zash jonasw: Like 222/223, or what do you mean by bulk?
  750. moparisthebest I also think OX is perfect for building Onion XMPP on top of, fyi
  751. jonasw Zash, I don’t think that 222/223 address the costs of sending the whole contents on each connection.
  752. jonasw (so maybe an informational one which addresses the issues of on_presence + large amounts of data)
  753. jonasw (e.g. base64’d crypto keys, avatars, …)
  754. Zash I believe you can have notifications that don't include the payload.
  755. jonasw which doesn’t help because PEP/PubSub often only allows for one item
  756. jonasw (okay, the @id is probably enough if it’s randomly generated by the server to know that you need to poll the data…)
  757. Zash Did I post to the list about me thinking that PEP should have even fewer required features, and a separate extended PEP for more advanced usecases?
  758. Zash Like 222/223, if those weren't Informational
  759. jonasw Zash, yes, I thnik so
  760. zinid Zash: why? users will anyway annoy you to death and you will end up implementing advanced version
  761. Zash zinid: They already do and I'm already on it.
  762. moparisthebest could just discover PGP keys via DNS instead, at least it's already spec'd out and implemented
  763. zinid Zash: so why do you need this separation then? :)
  764. Zash Because I like separation
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  766. Zash A bunch of the simpler things like Mood and Activity don't require all the features mandated by PEP, so why not make the minimal baseline be smaller so new implementations won't have to figure out what MUSTs they can ignore.
  767. Zash And a more clear target for stage two, or whatyoucallit
  768. Ge0rG And then people end up storing their bookmarks in private XML.
  769. Zash It'll inevitably end up being all of xep-60 in the end anyways
  770. Zash Ge0rG: make bookmarks depend on 22[23] (whichever was the private one)
  771. Zash -xep 222
  772. Bunneh Zash: Persistent Storage of Public Data via PubSub (Informational, Active, 2008-09-08) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0222.html
  773. Zash -xep 223
  774. Bunneh Zash: Persistent Storage of Private Data via PubSub (Informational, Active, 2008-09-08) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0223.html
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  812. SamWhited After our discussion this morning I came over all British and had my afternoon cup of of Earl Grey with milk in it… dwd is a corrupting influence.
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  828. moparisthebest I always assumed Earl grey was French because of jean-luc Picard liking it so much
  829. SamWhited I always assumed it was from space.
  830. waqas Something something Plan 9
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  833. SamWhited Did Picard work at Bell labs? I don't remember that being a part of the series.
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