XSF Discussion - 2017-11-13

“01:44:52 Zash> Link Mauve: Can't you just chmod a+r the xep84 node, like people want with omemo?”, and willingly give away your JID in your MUC presence so that other participants can find it? ^^

I just added a page for an event we’ll be part of, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Capitole_du_Libre_2017

It’s next weekend, Guus, could we get a stock of stickers in time for this event? :x

I’ll try to get other things as well, for example a French translation of Arc’s Prosody booklet, and maybe stickers of ours.

Link Mauve: sure. Send me a shipping address.

Guus o/

we need to prepare a bit for T-DOSE as well :)

edhelas: yes. Suggestions?

holy crap, im on live internet video

https://video.nest.com/embedded/live/ctrlh1

congrats or so? :-)

If I click this link, everyone better had their clothes on, Arc...

:D

Arc, which one of that is you? :-)

He's the one sitting down.

did he bring his own french coffee press?

oh, shh, he's looking!

oh, false alarm.

I could do this all day! ;)

i brought it here to stay here, but yes. its for tea

woah - quite a bit of lag.

yea, a few seconds

tea!

building a tea-machine with CLI interface so that I can write down tea-instructions as makefiles is on my long-term todo :)

jonasw, you need a (different) hobby.

I mean, CLIs are so passé.

jonasw why not write a XEP for that ?

Guus, trivial to make anything on top of CLI :)

Guus: NO U

Makefile Over XMPP

edhelas, HTCPCP over XMPP?

Rust!

Arc: Moldy tea? Sounds awful

He just put away his laptop - probably won't respond :)

I like my new Big Brother role :)

Big Guus

Guus, edhelas, also, a CLI tool could just be a frontend to an XMPP client sending commands ;-) ✏

excuses!

Heh

Rustlang

Guus, do you prefer one in France or in the UK? (CC: mathieui.)

one what?

Shipping address for SCAM material.

Or maybe it would be more prudent to ship directly to the friend hosting us?

Guus, how long would it take to ship them, generally?

Link Mauve: I don't care. You should account for a couple of days delivery time

well, unless it arrives on saturday, it doesn’t change much

For me it has to arrive on Friday morning at the latest.

Link Mauve: I have little experience - I think Daniel received his after two days. That was NL->DE

wouldn't it be cheaper and faster to order material from a local printing shop?

Link Mauve: no promises other than that I will send it today.

Guus you'll bring goodies for T-DOSE BTW ?

Georg: I have them pre-printed, shipping doesn't cost much.

Ge0rG, it may be, and we’re going to print some ourselves as well (French conference).

Link Mauve: what's the difference, accents all over "XMPP"? :D

:p

imèmpépaÿ

*ixèmpépaÿ

printing something that is comparable in quality is pretty expensive. while shipping is not

zímpŷ

Ge0rG, JabberFR is pretty well-known around here, so we’ll probably print stickers with our logo, and also a translated flyer of Arc’s Prosody setup. ✏

X̲͍̬̺M̰͔͉̼̹̲̯Ṕ̭ͭ̿P̟͉̤̮̥̺̍ :D

Guus, ok, so: Emmanuel Gil Peyrot 19 Victoria Road CB4 3BW Cambridge, Cambridgeshire United Kingdom ✏

Link Mauve: just the stickers, or also Arc' leaflet (I've got English ones only)

Hmm, maybe a few English ones, I’m sure there will be some non-French people around.

mathieui, any idea for the amount? I’ve never been to that particular event.

I've sent Daniel 100, I think.

If you don't put them on the table all at once, they'll last longer :)

(stickers, that is)

100 sound good

what stickers/

is it a meme or something here?

Guus, sure. :)

zinid, the things you can put on the back of your laptop.

I didn't know XMPP had stickers support

but I don't have a laptop...

fridge is ok?

yeah

100 stickers, 20 english folders (the folders are bulkier to send - I'd be happy to send as many as you want, but if you don't need them, I'd rather prevent have to find suitable envelopes :)

will that do, Link Mauve?

Guus, yup, should be fine, thanks!

ok. Will send them this afternoon.

thanks!

np

Jonasw the library list on the website isn't validated against the list of known platforms - is that by design?

(I'm not bothered by it - just checking)

I think we had a discussion about "platforms" for libraries being harder to pinpoint than for applications

Guus, isn’t it? I thought it was

ah right

MattJ: what about making MAM response messages type=headline?

Link Mauve: two envelopes on their way.

Yay, thanks!

jonasw: is there ever more to making tea than boiling water and dropping a tea bag in there for a bit?

Dangerous statement to make near any brits

teabags? blasphemy

My monocle just fell.

> My monocle just fell. I'm really glad that stereotype translates across the channel as well as it doors across the Atlantic, that made me laugh.

I just wondered if that stereotype will be still understandable in the next 10-20 years, but then I realized that most of us know monocles from TV anyway, not from real-life.

I should get monocle

My monocycle just fell

*monoclepop*

moparisthebest, :-O

(a) timing, and (b) teabags?! heresy!

Zash: I refrained from mentioning I then ice it and put in copious amounts of sugar for fear of British retribution

moparisthebest, that has its uses and would also be amazing if automated

moparisthebest, Making tea is just boiling water, a teabag, a mug, and some milk once ready.

ewww, milk!

moparisthebest, I know some people like to faff about a bit with loose tea and so on, but it basically tastes the same whether decent tea leaves are in a bag or not.

Ge0rG, Yes, of course. Otherwise Wrong.

some people put milk in coffee here, never seen that with tea, it's funny how little things like that are totally different in different places

I've tried tea with milk once or twice, and it was a shocking experience.

it really depends on the tea

moparisthebest, Totally wrong in some places you mean.

some Assam with milk -- great. earl grey with milk -- eww

is there more than one kind of tea? /sarcasm :)

jonasw, Ah, I was worried you were about to suggest that fruit infusions were tea.

dwd, eww fruit infusions

jonasw, In which case, obviously, you'd have been Wrong many times over.

I only ever drink warm/hot tea when I'm sick once or twice a year

sweet tea though, that's a different story

moparisthebest, That is a bizarre American thing. Probably not helped by being inflicted by Lipton's Yellow Label and not any of the decent stuff.

do two Wrongs make one Right?

Yellow Label is both the world's most popular tea, and simultaneously not sold in the UK because we like halfway decent stuff.

is uh, 'sun tea' a thing elsewhere?

Ge0rG, Well, tea without milk is Wrong, and fruit infusions are Wrong, obviously, but fruit infusions without milk is curiously less Wrong than with milk.

on a hot summer day we put tea bags and water in a clear glass jar and sit it in the sun all day

then of course sugar and refrigerate it

moparisthebest, Not seen that one before. Can't really see why you'd want to do that over just boiling water through teabags. (Through would have the same effect of reducing the tannins, which you probably want for ice tea variants).

I ordered iced tea in the US, was expecting the lipton peach soda, came out with half a gallon of bad tea with ice

> Probably not helped by being inflicted by Lipton's Yellow Label and not any of the decent stuff. That's the point, sweet tea requires a little bit of really crappy tea with your sugar! It's just how things work.

If you're using good tea you're doing it wrong.

it looks like the controversy about tea is even larger than the controversy about MIX

maybe this could go in the council agenda

Although, while Lipton is acceptable, you need Tetly if you want really good sweet tea. Trust a man who grew up in Georgia.

what’s georgia

;-)

You have Tetley's?

jonasw, Country just south of Russia.

We are the home of sweet tea, comrade!

In Soviet Russia, there was only bad Chinese tea.

OK that's it, xmpp tea room must happen now

dwd: I'm not sure if it's the same, it's the generic bad black tea blend though, not any directrix type

*sigh* phones.

Can't type.

I think they only do the one thing. Presumably not advertised by Yorkshiremen in flat caps in Georgia, though?

http://www.tetleyusa.com/Components/Files/ProductImage/040214125141-mainclassic_black_tea_l.jpg

That's actually kind of a brilliant thing for a con, instead of a plain old booth, host a tea room.

SamWhited, Same company, all right. Here it's https://www.tetley.co.uk/our-teas/our-full-range

Ah yup, that's the one. They're also very popular here (but only for iced and sweet tea)

Well, "here", I'm in Texas now and that's not really the same, sweet tea confuses places here.

arc, offering hot tea at fosdem sounds like a plan

arc, the Quadrature du Net does that at CCC.

arc, We could use Lloyd's XMPP code for controlling the kettle, too.

(tbh the concept has been quite pioneered by the "quadrateahouse" at each international CCC event)

It’s a great way to get random people to discuss together.

XEP it!

I thought teapots all implemented HTTP via RFC 2324?

Extensible Tea and Coffee Protocol

Zash, sounds way too syn and ack ridden.

Pfft, HTTP, who uses that anymore?

can't we just have somebody publish the beverages?

<stream:tea to="ge0rg">...

Bulk tea is cheap. Dirt cheap

Is that RFC 2324 compatible?

I do like this idea … xmpp tea room. I hope I can actually make it to the summit, we'll see. Trying to convince my company, but probably only can if one of my talks is accepted.

Erm. Did disco#item elements once have an "action" attribute?

Probably one for ralphm, Kev.

Perhaps zinid too. Basically it's before my time anyway.

https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/jep-0030-2.1.html

Looks like a yes

No older versions than 2.1 available? :(

Ah, part of disco#publish. Also supported by Openfire. :-)

Wait, what

Zash, Our Pubsub code has various bits in saying the spec isn't stable and might change, too. It's like archeology sometimes.

Version 2.4 (2008-06-06) Per Council consensus, removed disco-publish feature (implementations should use publish-subscribe instead).

Zash, Yup. Openfire did make that jump. But still has disco#publish support knocking about - mosly, I suspect, where it hasn't been removed.

I wasn't even aware this had existed

fun

Zash, I was dimly aware of disco#publish. Enough to vote to strip it while I was on Council, apparently.

Before my time

Zash, I stood for the first time in 2007. Fiercly contested election, back then: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2007

dwd: but even disco push didn't require an action attribute

Don't think we had that attribute

Oh, just saw the old version. Never mind

ralphm, Yeah. I don't think Openfire has this quite right even so, but it's probably been lying in wait for years.

Can we have that "MUC" vs "Group Chat" vs "Conference" discussion on standards@ instead of on twitter, please?

I suppose it depends on whether your intended audience is twitter users or not

which discussion?

can we have the official twitter account RT please?

not sure whats wrong about twitter

you should be glad i didn't post that on instagram

daniel: 140 characters

zinid, 280!

zOMG

and it's a poll

you should just say a or b

daniel, what twitter?

I have no idea what you’re all talking about (that’s wrong with twitter)

what is twitter?

https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/930101092565872640

daniel: "Chat" if you want the least confusing to users, in my experience. Although we call them Rooms in Swift.

My twitter client didn't show it's a poll - nor the options.

is your twitter client an rss reader?

no, it's an actual twitter client, from a third party.

damn, I don't even have an account in twitter

Why isn't there an XMPP-based microblogging plattform?

zinid, get on with the times, grandad

Kev: isn't "Chat" ambiguous, in that it might mean a "private chat" as well?

It is.

mathieui: so you call this bloated crap with retarded limitiations "the times", okay...

Ge0rG you mean a Web client that implement the XEP 277 ? :-°

ironically i think twitter is mostly millennials and older?

i think kids these days are on other platforms

edhelas: no, I mean something that has a name and that will be recognized by most people in this MUC

Ge0rG, does that ambiguity matter?

jonasw: I'm not sure.

Ge0rG you don't think that Movim fullfill your requirements ?

I've been in that position ("how to name MUCs") some months ago, and I went with "Group chat"

edhelas: I tried it once, but it didn't allow me to see NSFW content because of prosody :(

And then my phone died or somesuch.

wut

Movim kills phones?

No, unrelated event.

so sad story

Yeah. Sad.

there is nsfw content on movim?

daniel: I never was able to figure that out.

who merged this feature in Movim, that's you Holger ?

daniel: mostly gayish

what?

there's no NSFW content on Movim, there's NSFW content on the XMPP network :o

daniel: do you really want a link? :)

I think that the more important thing than naming a MUC is naming a JID.

i'd prefer not to ender my xmpp credentials into some website...

*enter

and rename XEP back to JEP, plz

Ge0rG, "address"

there's 2 difficults things in XMPP, naming things and send bold characters in chat

mathieui: "user address"? "account address"? "jabber address"?

mathieui: my address is a postal one.

edhelas: LOL

oh dear, I’m afraid of this becoming a meme :)

jonasw: fortunately, there is no way to send links to XMPP messages.

isn’t there?

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html

jonasw, btw, didn’t you have to make some tweaks to CCG after implementing it in poezio?

mathieui, just pushed them, waiting for the docker hub build

jonasw: we don't even have solved message IDs.

Ge0rG, before solving message IDs, let’s solve message routing

jonasw: right.

is this scheduled before or after world peace?

difficult to compare things to NaN

Ge0rG: XMPP is all about distributed systems and decentralization. Why would we need to discuss particular topics in one place only?

ralphm, especially in this situation having a central discussion venue is vital.

it helps the various distributed entities to have a common view on things

which is important for interop

ralphm: nothing wrong with that, except that most of our distributed venues are not based on XMPP anyway.

well twitter is mostly about user engagement and marketing. it's not meant to have a meaningful discussion

I don't see a problem with that. Each communication medium has different properties. I like e-mail for long-form discussions, but don't like it for IM-style usage (which I see a lot in corporations). Twitter is nice for public snippets. XMPP is good as a basis for building IM systems.

There are a bunch of things I like about Slack

(which could totally be build on top of XMPP)

if only we had a proper slack clone on top of XMPP

Go fund a team to make it

It is not a technology issue at all

I know.

People are reinventing IM all the time, and burning venture capital on the way.

I disagree this is a waste of money. Also I don't care how VCs spend their money.

Slack has a useful proposition that makes it more viable for teams like mine at work to collaborate than if we had to use any current offering based on XMPP.

Of course there are a bunch of things I don't like about it.

E.g. I think their channels should be more like MIX, with orthogonal streams of data

Now I have to ~force~ educate people to not put notifications of integrations into the same channel as where discussions happen.

ralphm: I'm pretty sure there is a market niche for a Slack clone that is deployed on premise and can be configured to follow archival / access policies.

Yes

And XMPP has all the building blocks for that.

what does it give you other than the bots for integration? (over a XMPP MUC)

But people rather do it on top of HTTP REST JSON.

moparisthebest: what Slack offers to us?

yes

moparisthebest: Slack is easy to "deploy"

Because xmpp is complex

in the same way as it's easy to just use a public xmpp server and muc I guess, that can't be the reason?

moparisthebest: have you ever used Slack? And any of the XMPP client offerings?

moparisthebest: there is a world of a difference, UX wise

moparisthebest: consistent UI across platforms, including desktop, easy to configure integrations (even by non-technical people), search, rich(er) formatting, snippets, mentions, team-mentions, (automatic) snoozing, reminders, (custom) emoji, emoji responses, unlimited editing/deletion of previously sent messages.

no I haven't used slack that's why I'm asking :)

moparisthebest: try it out for a week or two

unlimited editing/deletion of previous messages isn't a security problem?

especially for companies that must keep records or whatever?

moparisthebest: at this point in time, anyone developing XMPP clients or servers, or participates in the standards discussions thereof, should use Slack to understand what we're up against.

I am tempted to disqualify people's opinion based on that.

ralphm: I agree

good, we need a team which does that kind of research

because I cannot take any client serious which only runs in the browser.

Slack is the mirror that's held up to XMPP client developers to show how they failed.

what if it's against your religion to use proprietary software? :)

moparisthebest: enlightenment?

moparisthebest: then pay somebody to use it and look at them doing it.

Ge0rG: I think limiting that to just XMPP client devs is not fair.

ralphm: maybe, but in the context of the XSF it is a very valid limitation.

other's opinions are helpful anyway, I can open slack, but if I'm not using it daily or in a team or whatever I can't really get a good feel over what it does better or worse

jonasw: totally, you at least need browser, iOS and Android. Desktop apps seem to be a thing still. I heard that my Mac using colleagues use the desktop version of Slack. I just run it in the browser.

plenty of people seem to like riot.im, I found it confusing after a few minutes and quit

I'd even go as far as to say that renaming from JSF to XSF and thus shifting focus away from software to protocol was a bad idea.

moparisthebest: I agree it helps if you need it for work or another shared project where there is regular usage.

You should start a new JSF, the XMPP Software Foundation (also called XSF).

Ge0rG: that's disingenious. The XSF/JSF has always been about standards.

ralphm: I think that it's rather easy to port a modern web app onto the Electron operating system, so having [web, ios, android] might suffice.

SamWhited: I'd call it the Jabber Software Foundation and focus on IM client interop.

Ge0rG: we didn't do much about software, but named it like Apache. The furthest we got was hosting JabberStudio.

ah yes that's what I want, a chat client that uses more resources than my java IDE

oh wait I have that, it's called running a windows 7 VM just for lync :'(

ralphm: my point is: we are sorely missing an entity that has a focus on software and UX of XMPP

Ge0rG: Me :p

I thought I'd seen a lot of focus on UX lately Ge0rG

moparisthebest: you mean the Styles XEP?

not everyone has to focus on the same thing

Kev: then you know the answer to daniel's initial question on how to name MUCs?

well yea that's a good example, but also UX considerations in other XEPs

moparisthebest: I'm trying to push UX in the XSF for around two years now, and more often than not I hear the "we are about protocols, not UIs" response.

Ge0rG: I use 'rooms'. Users tend to use different terms based on their backgrounds - we come up against 'chats' quite a lot.

ah I don't think I've seen that

'room', 'chat room', 'group', 'group chat', 'or 'channel' are just fine

'

ralphm: just fine for whom?

I don't know why you couldn't make a few UX standards recommendations in XEPs, some do right?

Ge0rG: people. WhatsApp uses group. Slack uses channel.

ralphm: if you are helping a friend configure an XMPP client over the phone, do you tell them to look for rooms, chatrooms, group chats, channels or all of the above?

Facebook had a thing called Rooms

I think it wouldn't hurt to standardize on a name for those, and even to provide some i18n lookups for that name.

Ge0rG, you ask what client first and go from there I guess

So this is the problem right, unlike Slack or WhatsApp, there's not a single entity creating XMPP-based IM clients.

moparisthebest: so I need to remember the client->name mapping for all commonly used XMPP clients?

moparisthebest, haha

or, you do what you suggested Ge0rG , and write one-client-to-rule-them-all using electron or whatever the hot framework of the day is, and have everyone use that?

moparisthebest: that's not what I suggest.

moparisthebest, I find it amazing how ignorant people can be about the software they’re using and how hard it can be to figure out what they use.

moparisthebest: I suggest to have a common glossary for client developers, see https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Usability/Glossary

they just use jabber and it takes time to figure out they run xabber/yaxim/conversations.

Ge0rG: if I'm helping friends, I tend to use the wrong terms anyway, as different operating systems use different names for everything, and different translations vary wildly. My friends and family can usually cope just fine :)

intosi: I'm sure you have smart friends & family :)

if I'm helping a friend set up xmpp over the phone I'll be telling them to install conversations and then go from there most likely

if you are walking them through at that level you have to know more details meh

I would probably not ever suggest 'conference' as a name, unless it was about AV ones

Ge0rG, I think a glossary is a great idea

It's called Multi-User Chat.

I have a hard time helping my family and friends anyway, because they use apps in Dutch, which I hate.

or short "MUC" - a term that really nobody outside of the core XMPP community can relate to

^ with ralphm on that

If we had a database of jabber-related terms and their translations, you could use those when on support duty :P

that's a different problem actually, translating technical terms sounds rough

That's why you shouldn't use them

Group or Room translate really well

ralphm: And then comes "MIX"

maybe you provide 1 UI since the user doesn't care, it's all a 'Group' to them

I am basically the last person to try to make UI decisions, I can tell if I like something or not, but that's it

I'm the only one I know personally that's been using KDE for the last 11 years, for example

Zash: for MIX the concept is still Room

You can even make MIX rooms be accessible via MUC if you put in the engineering effort

ralphm, I think MIX is Channel, but yeah.

ok

dwd: is that different from MUC?

So yeah, we have MUC Rooms and MIX Channels

Ge0rG, MUC talks about Rooms. MIX talks about Channels, as I recall.

dwd: why should we use different terms? To a user, it's all the same

It doesn't matter much, and if you really care, we could change it before going to Draft

You'd have to rename some elements, though

I'm not sure you need to map XEP language into the UI 1:1

what does what the protocol calls protocol-level things have to do with UI ?

Nice if they align, though. Makes it much simpler for newcomers.

lovetox: regarding your question yesterday: Does that https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/541 suit your needs?

Flow, any reason you went for a patch-level version number increase?

I would like to get semver-like versioning in XEPs, if possible.

this feels more like a 0.3 than a 0.2.1 to me

flow yes this solves the problem, but then it seems even harder to solve the use case about invalidating keys

because now you have no notifications at all anymore after sub

i think if we design this, we should at least make distributing and retracting keys have a good workflow

i think there is no way around having something like a metanode

that tells us new keys are there and old keys should be rewoked

lovetox, the service still would send notifications if a new item is added, no?

em no?

last published item is set to on_sub or never

jonasw, I don't care that mutch, but then again, it rather had the deferred status change a patch level

lovetox, isn't send_last_published_item a per node setting?

Flow, did you mean "I’d rather have had the deferred status change a patch level"?

and, I think a PubSub server would still send notifications on publish, regardless of the value of send_last_published_item

jonasw, that yes :)

but we dont receive that publish if we are not online

Flow, I’m not set on the version change level for deferrals, really. I’m not sure if minor or patch makes more sense.

lovetox, why not?

I’m happy with changing it to patch, nobody else voiced concern about that yet.

…if your service stores offline messages

Changing normative language should, imo, most of the time be minor level or major level, depending.

flow this is seems like totally new territory

now suddenly the xep depends on offline message, and mam

lovetox, also you could still query the node, that is how it was meant to be used primarly

i thought we polling xeps are bad

You shouldn't really try to rely on having received the latest status of the node

lovetox, depends on the case i'd say

polling is annoying

all generalization are bad

that’s not true! ;-)

Flow, it seems you try really hard to make your approach at this work

lovetox, I haven't heard an alternative

you said something like the "do the OMEMO approach", but I think OMEMO also uses PEP?

i did that at least 3 times now

lovetox, must have missed it

introduce a metanode

clients publish valid keyids to it

brb

clients receive these on every start

"on_presence"?

yes

then clients do a poll at node:keyid if the dont know the key id

and get the key

that way you have minimal traffic, 2 or 3 keyids is small

and only have to pull keys if they are new to you

at the same moment you could say, every key that is not inside the metanode, has to be retracted

I had to think about it a bit more, and I'd like to see a list discussion regarding this

What's the context here?

Zash, OX sending the full OpenPGP pubkey on every available presncen if you don't configure the node to not do so

lovetox, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea

please post on list

i already have haha, but i dig it out again and write something :)

So you'd like something like how the avatars and stuff works?

yes shit, why didnt i thought of it, thats way easier way to describe it

its exactly like avatars work

:D

I wonder whether there should be an informational XEP for bulk storage in PEP

so that people writing XEPs have something to base their work on

Flow, we really should get this going, people are annoyed by OMEMOs perfect forward secrecy

jonasw: Like 222/223, or what do you mean by bulk?

I also think OX is perfect for building Onion XMPP on top of, fyi

Zash, I don’t think that 222/223 address the costs of sending the whole contents on each connection.

(so maybe an informational one which addresses the issues of on_presence + large amounts of data)

(e.g. base64’d crypto keys, avatars, …)

I believe you can have notifications that don't include the payload.

which doesn’t help because PEP/PubSub often only allows for one item

(okay, the @id is probably enough if it’s randomly generated by the server to know that you need to poll the data…)

Did I post to the list about me thinking that PEP should have even fewer required features, and a separate extended PEP for more advanced usecases?

Like 222/223, if those weren't Informational

Zash, yes, I thnik so

Zash: why? users will anyway annoy you to death and you will end up implementing advanced version

zinid: They already do and I'm already on it.

could just discover PGP keys via DNS instead, at least it's already spec'd out and implemented

Zash: so why do you need this separation then? :)

Because I like separation

A bunch of the simpler things like Mood and Activity don't require all the features mandated by PEP, so why not make the minimal baseline be smaller so new implementations won't have to figure out what MUSTs they can ignore.

And a more clear target for stage two, or whatyoucallit

And then people end up storing their bookmarks in private XML.

It'll inevitably end up being all of xep-60 in the end anyways

Ge0rG: make bookmarks depend on 22[23] (whichever was the private one)

-xep 222

Zash: Persistent Storage of Public Data via PubSub (Informational, Active, 2008-09-08) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0222.html

-xep 223

Zash: Persistent Storage of Private Data via PubSub (Informational, Active, 2008-09-08) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0223.html

After our discussion this morning I came over all British and had my afternoon cup of of Earl Grey with milk in it… dwd is a corrupting influence.

I always assumed Earl grey was French because of jean-luc Picard liking it so much

I always assumed it was from space.

Something something Plan 9

Did Picard work at Bell labs? I don't remember that being a part of the series.