Can't we just cease Board and Council meeting in the few weeks between DST changes here and over the pond?
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jonasw
Ge0rG, hasn’t DST changed over already and the actual issue is that the meeting is now effectively an hour earlier everywhere?
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Ge0rG
jonasw: if we anchor the meeting time in local time and cease meetings when the DST status is incosnstent between countries, this is probably the least annoyance for everyone except for people who have all their other meetings anchored on UTC
jonasw
timezones suck
jonasw
so what you’re saying is not "cease meetings between DST changes" but "anchor meetings on local time instead of UTC".
jonasw
(+ the former)
jonasw
(because ceasing the meetings wouldn’t have helped with board which was anchored in UTC)
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Ge0rG
jonasw: right, exactly that
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pep.
jonasw, https://www.mail-archive.com/standards@xmpp.org/msg18154.html, I'm still reading through the threads. "Examples of markup which falls back to plaintext gracefully", and you include xhtml in the counter examples. How is that a counter example
jonasw
pep., because <b>this</b> isn’t really readable
jonasw
neither is a serialized version of a table, if you assume that tags are stripped
jonasw
also links etc.
Zash
Bunneh: do ("because <b>this</b> isn’t really readable"):gsub("%b<>","")
Bunneh
Zash: because this isn’t really readable
pep.
what Zash said
jonasw
Zash, great! now do this with a table and an href and see how useful it is :)
Zash
jonasw: I think I personally can live with tables getting messed up in IM
pep.
jonasw, I'm not sure I get the issue, you can also do that with xhtml, same as markdown
jonasw
Zash, note that I specifically did not say XHTML-IM, but XHTML.
pep.
you'll have to parse both either way
jonasw
pep., so <a href="something">here’s the site</a> I’ve been telling you about
jonasw
strip the tag away, it’s useless
pep.
no you don't _just_ strip the tag away
jonasw
ah, then it’s not a simple fallback to plaintext anymore
pep.
of course
jonasw
and that’s what I’m saying
jonasw
what I was referring to there is that some markups are immediately readable as plaintext without additional processing
pep.
ok, how does markdown falls back gracefully then?
jonasw
because *this* is pretty much readable
pep.
*and *this* is as* well?
jonasw
that’s not useful markdown in the first place
jonasw
so kind of not a valid argument here
jonasw
(it is equivalent to "<p><em>and </em>this* is as* well?</p>" according to pandoc)
jonasw
but that’s beside the point, kind of. Styling has much stricter rules than anymark and falls back to plaintext gracefully in all cases I think.
pep.
granted this is not a valid example. I can certainly find some, and I'm sure people have already.
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jonasw
I’ll make one for you: "*foo\*bar*"
jonasw
that’s where things get naughty, and that’s why those cases have been forbidden in Styling
pep.
Now thinking about why this question in the first place, why do we need to have this property for the markup?
Zash
Let me tell you about mod<em>foo</em>bar
jonasw
pep., I never said we do need this property.
jonasw
I said that there are sources (read: entities) which emit this type of markup and there always will be and we’ll have to deal with it somehow.
pep.
sources such as?
jonasw
humans, for example
jonasw
*I* certainly *do* write such content.
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Zash
What if /I/ write it differently?
pep.
I do as well, for stuff that my client doesn't support yet, for the rest I use xhtml-im
jonasw
another case would be:
> the sources Florian quoted when proposing Body Markup Hints
as I mentioned in my email (I’m just quoting here to add more examples of me doing that markup)
jonasw
pep., great! now let’s standardize what everyone does so that clients can encourage that behaviour by applying actual styling, thus slowly teaching everybody to use exactly that formatting
jonasw
bonus points if we let us inspire by widespread IM systems to make things more familiar
pep.
Well we can use actual markup, we don't have to include random stuff in the plaintext✎
pep.
Well we can use actual markup, we don't have to include stuff in the plaintext ✏
jonasw
sure
jonasw
but I found with Message Markup that it’s not trivial
jonasw
for example, when I do a list:
* foo
* bar
* baz
Zash
Won't any actual XML markup end up in someones DOM with minimal fiddlery? Won't anything resembling Markdown go through a library that does HTML passtrough?
pep.
I wouldn't do a list like that if my client supported it
jonasw
now when marking this up with Message Markup, I would either have to remove the '* ' from the body so that the message renders nicely in MM-capable clients, or I keep the '* ' so that plaintext-only clients’ users can still understand what I’m doing
jonasw
Zash, I don’t think you can make MM end up in any dom with minimal fiddlery
jonasw
pep., wait for my point :-)
jonasw
or rather, read my point now
jonasw
if I decide to keep the '* ', the message looks ugly in MM-capable clients, which’d essentially render each point as '• * foo'
Zash
jonasw: Is that a challenge?
jonasw
if I drop the '* ', it is unreadable to plaintext clients which would have been perfectly fine with seeing '* foo'
pep.
yeah, that's why I preferred xhtml-im in the first place
pep.
that's just ugly
jonasw
pep., XHTML-IM does exactly that, right
jonasw
so we’re back to putting markup-things in the <body/>.
Zash
XHTML-IM has two bodies
jonasw
and also have a copy of the text in <body xhtml/>, which is a really bad thing
pep.
what no xhtml doesn't do that
pep.
or let me reread
jonasw
doesn’t it?
jonasw
I thought there were rules on how to generate the plaintext
pep.
Ah, ok maybe
Zash
jonasw: multipart/alternative has worked "fine" in email since forever? :)
jonasw
indeed, theer aren’t I think
jonasw
Zash, it didn’t
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Zash
Like that email I got that said "click here" ... without a link or anything
jonasw
pep., so, would you rather have your whatever-XHTML-IM-replacement-there-will-be client put a plaintext body which is unreadable to humans (e.g. my broken list, without '* ') into the message or keep things like '* ' to make it more interpretable?
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jonasw
i.e., would you want your non-XHTML-IM-replacement-capable peer see (a):
* foo
* bar
* baz
or rather (b):
foo
bar
baz
?
pep.
I'm not sure, yet. I do put pseudo-markup in plaintext fairly often as well, emails (which are usually way more formatted than any of my messages on IM), xmpp also, for stuff like `inline code` etc.
jonasw
exactly
pep.
One thing I know for sure is that I wouldn't want this '* ' crap in the formatted version
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jonasw
exactly
pep.
I'll have to think about that a bit more
jonasw
so why not (a) standardise that pseudo markup so that everybody is on the same page and (b) also make a XEP (which I want Message Markup to be) which specifies how to put proper markup into messages *and* which specifies how a plaintext fallback has to look like?
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jonasw
and also make the plaintext fallback of Message Markup look exactly like the equivalent Styling for instant interop
jonasw
that’s kind of my plan
Zash
I'm not usually sending tables and lists in my chats
pep.
neither am I
pep.
In my emails maybe, lists definitely
jonasw
lists I do quite a bit (see above, there were a few :))
jonasw
but the same holds for quotations, really
jonasw
you really need the "> " (or other marker) in the plaintext version, but it looks ugly as heck in the rendered markup
Zash
I'm actually allergic to people who quote messages that are still in view
jonasw
I like to quote XEPs/RFCs :)
pep.
I usually try not to do that as well
Zash
Oh how very nessesary to include the message that is *right above yours*
Zash
Fine if it was hours ago and it scrolled out of view
pep.
Also "> " quotations are a fairly recent thing here I think, since conversations started it
pep.
I usually use "re <whatyouweretalkingabout>"
pep.
Or similar
jonasw
pep., I actually love that conversations adopted that
pep.
I don't really
Kev
> predates Conversations just ever so slightly. See email.
pep.
that's even more clutter
Zash
The Skype people that got me into XMPP dev did that all the time, quoting the above message. And it looked horrible because the Linux client wasn't aware of the markup used.
pep.
Kev, yeah but it does fit better in email, I don't really like that in IM
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Kev
I do it in IM, and I've never used a client that showed it as markup. It's human-readable, and obvious what you mean if you're amongst people who're email-literate.
Holger
jonasw: The problem isn't really plain-text clients but clients that don't support your markup, no?
jonasw
Holger, that’s what I mean, yes
jonasw
do you find the wording confusing?
pep.
I get that, still it doesn't feel right to me in IM, you can usually follow a discussion easily in a groupchat, even when there are two discussions going on at the same time. What I would do is just hl the person to whom I'm talking to, and as I said earlier if I need to specify I'll use "re .." or similar
pep.
Kev ^
jonasw
pep., just today I wanted to quote a piece of RFC 6120 to somebody.
jonasw
it’s not (only) about quoting messages from the same discussion.
Zash
jonasw> it’s not (only) about quoting messages from the same discussion. <<< this is annoying tho
jonasw
also, pep., just because it isn’t *your* use case, does that mean that nobody should be able to do that?
Zash, that’s kinda beside the point of the markup discussion, isn’t it?
Holger
jonasw: Yes I wasn't sure whether your concern was terminal clients specifically. While Gajim will have the same problem as long as it doesn't support your XEP and Poezio could support your markup just find by displaying "item" as "* item" or whatever.
jonasw
Holger, no, I didn’t mean to refer to terminal clients, at all.
Holger
But I'm probably just stating the obvious.
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Holger
Ok :-)
jonasw
(the fact that poezio has some XHTML-IM support should make that clear, too. It even can into boldface and colors. And italic if you’re on python 3.7 or so)
Holger
Yup.
Zash
jonasw: An example of bad markup? IIRC quotes weren't actually rendered like that ... unless you used the Linux client (the bare existence of was in itself a crime against humanity)
pep.
At work we use Mattermost, which has threads (half-arsed threads, but still), so quotation is indeed useful for things that you are actually quoting. Not just replying to someone✎
pep.
At work we use Mattermost, which has threads (half-arsed threads, but still), so quotation is indeed useful for things that you are actually quoting. Not replying to someone ✏
Zash: video is in French indeed, but it's not really need to understand the speach to see the feature
Zash
goffi: hard to know without understanding it :)
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moparisthebest
jonasw, I use Dsub on an android phone, libresonic on the server (though now I heard of a new fork called airsonic but haven't looked into it...)
jonasw
moparisthebest, "android phone" no.
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jonasw
so many reasons, among which: bad audio quality, bad input device, low battery life
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moparisthebest
oh no I smell an audiophile, run!!!
edhelas
eheh :D
edhelas
MPD + Cantata <3
jonasw
edhelas, lovely, but that doesn’t work on-the-go unfortunately :)
Zash
jonasw: invent time travel, go back to 2001 and steal one of those usb mp3 player-thumbdrives
edhelas
jonasw using Rockbox on my iPod Photo, Cantata do the sync easily from the MPD DB
mathieui
Zash, the ones supporting up to mp3 128k?
jonasw
Zash, I’m in fact hunting for vintage-ish devices to put rockbox on.
jonasw
Zash, my issue is rather that my vintage device from 2004 broke and it’s hard to find an affordable replacement which I’ll be able to maintain for another 10 years.
jonasw
going for the same model again (which has 2.5" IDE storage) seems like a bad idea :)
Zash
mathieui: the ones that measured in megabytes and you'd better compress it down to that if you want more than one song on it
edhelas
jonasw you can easily change some HDD into Flash ones with cheap adapters
jonasw
edhelas, tried that
jonasw
didn’t work for my h320
edhelas
changed my IDE connector to CF, then CF to SD then SD to Micro SD now I have 32Gb flash that can be expanded :p
Zash
are therte raspberry pi-like devices with 3.5mm connectors?✎
Zash
are there still raspberry pi-like devices with 3.5mm connectors? ✏
something like that, with like a battery pack taped to it? :)
jonasw
Zash, that doesn’t sound fragile at all :)
jonasw
the last fragile player I had lasted three weeks or so
Zash
I'm using some early rev raspberry ip with mpd on it
Zash
why did apple stop making the good screenless ... clip ipods?
jonasw
I like a good screen.
moparisthebest
honestly I'd buy a used android phone for $20 or something, not sure what else you would want
Zash
jonasw: you listen with your eyes?
moparisthebest
good screen, wifi, unlimited storage, 3.5 plug
Zash
shuffle!
jonasw
no, but it’s good for input feedback :)
jonasw
moparisthebest, I want a proper keyboard, for starters.
jonasw
touchscreens are annoying to use when on-the-go
edhelas
wifi ?! but why
Zash
I'd be fine with a 'next' button and nothing else
edhelas
and then you complain that you have to recharge it each 24h :D
edhelas
just put a big storage, few buttons, simple screen and a big battery
moparisthebest
jonasw, motorola droid 1 ?
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jjrh
Orange pi is another sbc
jjrh
They have a orange pi zero which is really small and has WiFi
jonasw
moparisthebest, can one control music playback with those hardware keys? ;-)
jonasw
also, way too many and too tiny
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moparisthebest
probably?
moparisthebest
oh wait if you only want next/previous etc all of them have hardware buttons
moparisthebest
up/down etc
Zash
moparisthebest: that's me
jonasw
up down is for volume, isn’t it?
jjrh
Zash if you want a small mp3 player look on AliExpress and sites like that
moparisthebest
you can configure it to be for whatever
jonasw
moparisthebest, but I need both volume, updown, navigation through the library etc.
jonasw
without nasty touchness
jonasw
or unlocking the device, even though a separate device would solve that no matter the OS
jjrh
They have some nice ones that play flac
Zash
jonasw: n900!
moparisthebest
jonasw, android phones generally have 3 hardware buttons at the bottom of the screen, volume up/down, and power
moparisthebest
any of which you can remap
jonasw
moparisthebest, those aren’t hardware buttons, those are touch
jonasw
(usually)
Zash
go back in time to the earliest androids that had full hardware keyboards
moparisthebest
depends on device, but most devices even though it looks like screen they are actually hardware buttons you can press with screen off
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jonasw
moparisthebest, they are still capacitive touch based
jonasw
my issue is not that they wouldn’t work with the screen turned off
jonasw
I am used to operate my playback device without even looking at it
moparisthebest
why does that matter?
Zash
also, gloves
moparisthebest
you make it vibrate when you press them?
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Zash
winter is coming
jonasw
I still don’t know which key I hit
jonasw
or will hit, in advance
jonasw
it’s about haptic feedback
Zash
jonasw: headset? headset with next/prev buttons?
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jonasw
and gloves, yes
moparisthebest
I bet some cheap android phones still come with buttons
jonasw
Zash, that’d add more parameters to the search for earphones
Zash
or get something with so little storage that you can only fit good music on it, negating the need to switch songs
jonasw
moparisthebest, even *if* that is solved: battery life, proper playback software (rockbox on androids is meh), the effort to re-configure the device to act like something it clearly isn’t and audio quality remain as issues
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moparisthebest
DSub for software, battery life should be plenty if you turn off data?
jonasw
Zash, having lived with MDs for years, I’d agree. But I have come to like the possiblity to have one or two audiobooks with me without having to manage that
Zash
MDs?
moparisthebest
my favorite thing about Dsub is it connects to your server, but caches music, and can play offline
jonasw
Zash, Mini-Discs
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jonasw
moparisthebest, it needs a server?
jonasw
nope.
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Zash
jonasw: Heh, get a *drumroll* mp3-cd player! or a walkman!
jonasw
Zash, I was seriously considering hunting for used MD players.
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jonasw
but then I’m accustomed to the great UI of rockbox, which I’d like to keep. Hands down the best mobile audio player I’ve seen so far.
Zash
I wonder if you can put an mp3 player into one of those cassette adapters...
moparisthebest
jonasw, that's the good part in my opinion, all my music is on the server, and I pick what it plays/caches whenever I'm connected to the internet
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jonasw
moparisthebest, that’s a downside for me.
moparisthebest
how do you put music on it? manually copy it? ew
jonasw
there are tools for that
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jonasw
it’d require setting up a server and handing the device credentials for internet access, meaning it needs a lockscreen
Zash
moparisthebest: what does the caching?
jonasw
at the point it needs a lockscreen it isn’t suitable for audio playback anymore
moparisthebest
Zash, Dsub the client can stream from the server and/or pre-cache them from the server and can then play anything it has offline
jonasw: hardware wise it's probably same as any android
jonasw
Zash, I don’t see any reason why not then. golang compiles for ARM. it’s probably even more portable due to lack of runtime dependencies ;-)
Zash
just with some redhat-ish systemd based distro
Zash
problem two: no sshfs in its repos
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jonasw
Zash, no worries, dragonstash has it’s own SFTP client
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jonasw
don’t let yourself be fooled by the roadmap in the readme, I haven’t updated that in a while
jonasw
you need kernel support for fuse though
jjrh
Zash, those mp3 cd players came after - they still skipped
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jjrh
Minidisc was just rock solid
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jonasw
jjrh, unless you shaked the player too much :)
jjrh
well yeah none of this was a problem if you were sitting still
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moparisthebest
ah the old days of trying not to scratch them, or cleaning them off with breath and your shirt
moparisthebest
flash is so much better
jonasw
minidiscs didn’t have the dust issue
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moparisthebest
oh just looked it up, a mini CD inside a 3.5" floppy enclosure?
moparisthebest
odd
jonasw
yeah, kind of
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jjrh
on the discs, the actual optics were a disaster. That's what always broke for me. I had a sony store warranty - best warranty service ever. It was cheaper for them to give me a new minidisc player but instead they fixed the one I had - which I appreciated because I liked that player. Compared to when my creative zen broke and I took it back to futureshop they said "nah we don't have that anymore heres a ipod look it's a upgrade!"
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jjrh
if you really want a ipod mini or whatever though china got ya back https://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-Big-promotion-Mirror-Portable-MP3-player-Mini-Clip-MP3-Player-waterproof-sport-mp3-music-player/32719915116.html
Zash
jonasw: *sigh* at yet another build toolchain to install tho
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jjrh
$1.38 can't really go wrong at that price.
jonasw
Zash, gcc can build go too
jonasw
if that helps
Zash
jonasw: I find your lack of a Makefile .. disturbing
jonasw
one doesn’t need one with go :/
jonasw
it’s just go build and magic happens
jonasw
I’m rather new to go things
jonasw
it’s my first go project
Zash
jonasw: You don't need one with C either, just 'make thing' and it magically compiles thing.c for you
Zash
jjrh: hah, shiny, but seems legaly grayareaish
jjrh
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2016-100-original-English-version-Ultrathin-MP3-Player-with-4GB-storage-and-1-8-Inch-Screen/32613579921.html I bought this a year ago before traveling. It didn't play every flac I had but it was a solid little player. Software and UI could be better.
SamWhited
Zash: all the implicit C make rules make me sad though :( I've had multiple projects break because some random implicit rule was being cached and breaking things
SamWhited
(also I think that's a GNUMake thing, isn't it? If you don't have gmake you're pretty much hosed, but that's not as big of a deal)
Zash
SamWhited: I'm more saddened by the lack of a default rule to build .so
jjrh
Zash, yeah probably wouldn't win a legal battle but hey apple decided not to sell them anymore.
I’m missing a way to copy the URL without the QR-code
marc
jonasw, yes, but showing a URL on the invitation dialog is too easy ;)
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jonasw
:)
jonasw
and now we need this passwordless :)
marc
what do you mean?
jonasw
without having to type a password for the registration
marc
and what's the password then? :D
marc
Random password?
jonasw
the idea was to use client certificates in the background and don’t assign a password at all
jonasw
to add more devices, you’d have some small protocol which would allow a new device to register itself and its key with the server given the token✎
jonasw
to add more devices, you’d have some small protocol which would allow a new device to register itself and its key with the server given a token shown on the first device ✏
jonasw
a password could be used in addition for recovery purposes
marc
okay, yes that would be nice
jonasw
wouldn’t it? :)
marc
but that's a complete other task / xep on top, right?
jonasw
yeah, I guess so
jonasw
but it belongs in the same big picture of easy onboarding
marc
I wouldn't mix this with invitation
marc
jonasw, of course!
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jonasw
yeah, don’t mix that protocol-wise :)
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marc
jonasw, okay, so in your opinion it's worth to write / publish a XEP for this, right?
jonasw
I think so
jonasw
I bet it will require some building on
jonasw
are you familiar with the XEP process?
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jonasw
(like, I can imagine that Ge0rG will have some ideas on this, but the basic idea is solid, I think)
marc, so aside from all the formalities, the process is basically: fork and clone the https://github.com/xsf/xeps/ repository, copy xep-template.xml to inbox/my-fancy-new-xep.xml, fill out the blanks and write down what you want to write down, git add, git commit, and make a PR with your commit
jonasw
if you want more details about the formalities, those are written down in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html
jonasw
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html but this is probably what you should read first
jonasw
(Guidelines for Authors of XMPP Extension Protocols)
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jonasw
if you’ve got any further questions, feel free to ask here
marc
jonasw, I'll read this, thanks!
jonasw
(or ping me specifically, be aware though that PMs don’t work right in this room, IIRC)
jonasw
(you won’t have to read all of 143, most likely, since much of it is self-explaining, I think)