XSF Discussion - 2017-11-16

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

Can't we just cease Board and Council meeting in the few weeks between DST changes here and over the pond?

Ge0rG, hasn’t DST changed over already and the actual issue is that the meeting is now effectively an hour earlier everywhere?

jonasw: if we anchor the meeting time in local time and cease meetings when the DST status is incosnstent between countries, this is probably the least annoyance for everyone except for people who have all their other meetings anchored on UTC

timezones suck

so what you’re saying is not "cease meetings between DST changes" but "anchor meetings on local time instead of UTC".

(+ the former)

(because ceasing the meetings wouldn’t have helped with board which was anchored in UTC)

jonasw: right, exactly that

jonasw, https://www.mail-archive.com/standards@xmpp.org/msg18154.html, I'm still reading through the threads. "Examples of markup which falls back to plaintext gracefully", and you include xhtml in the counter examples. How is that a counter example

pep., because <b>this</b> isn’t really readable

neither is a serialized version of a table, if you assume that tags are stripped

also links etc.

Bunneh: do ("because <b>this</b> isn’t really readable"):gsub("%b<>","")

Zash: because this isn’t really readable

what Zash said

Zash, great! now do this with a table and an href and see how useful it is :)

jonasw: I think I personally can live with tables getting messed up in IM

jonasw, I'm not sure I get the issue, you can also do that with xhtml, same as markdown

Zash, note that I specifically did not say XHTML-IM, but XHTML.

you'll have to parse both either way

pep., so <a href="something">here’s the site</a> I’ve been telling you about

strip the tag away, it’s useless

no you don't _just_ strip the tag away

ah, then it’s not a simple fallback to plaintext anymore

of course

and that’s what I’m saying

what I was referring to there is that some markups are immediately readable as plaintext without additional processing

ok, how does markdown falls back gracefully then?

because *this* is pretty much readable

*and *this* is as* well?

that’s not useful markdown in the first place

so kind of not a valid argument here

(it is equivalent to "<p><em>and </em>this* is as* well?</p>" according to pandoc)

but that’s beside the point, kind of. Styling has much stricter rules than anymark and falls back to plaintext gracefully in all cases I think.

granted this is not a valid example. I can certainly find some, and I'm sure people have already.

I’ll make one for you: "*foo\*bar*"

that’s where things get naughty, and that’s why those cases have been forbidden in Styling

Now thinking about why this question in the first place, why do we need to have this property for the markup?

Let me tell you about mod<em>foo</em>bar

pep., I never said we do need this property.

I said that there are sources (read: entities) which emit this type of markup and there always will be and we’ll have to deal with it somehow.

sources such as?

humans, for example

*I* certainly *do* write such content.

What if /I/ write it differently?

I do as well, for stuff that my client doesn't support yet, for the rest I use xhtml-im

another case would be: > the sources Florian quoted when proposing Body Markup Hints as I mentioned in my email (I’m just quoting here to add more examples of me doing that markup)

pep., great! now let’s standardize what everyone does so that clients can encourage that behaviour by applying actual styling, thus slowly teaching everybody to use exactly that formatting

bonus points if we let us inspire by widespread IM systems to make things more familiar

Well we can use actual markup, we don't have to include stuff in the plaintext ✏

sure

but I found with Message Markup that it’s not trivial

for example, when I do a list: * foo * bar * baz

Won't any actual XML markup end up in someones DOM with minimal fiddlery? Won't anything resembling Markdown go through a library that does HTML passtrough?

I wouldn't do a list like that if my client supported it

now when marking this up with Message Markup, I would either have to remove the '* ' from the body so that the message renders nicely in MM-capable clients, or I keep the '* ' so that plaintext-only clients’ users can still understand what I’m doing

Zash, I don’t think you can make MM end up in any dom with minimal fiddlery

pep., wait for my point :-)

or rather, read my point now

if I decide to keep the '* ', the message looks ugly in MM-capable clients, which’d essentially render each point as '• * foo'

jonasw: Is that a challenge?

if I drop the '* ', it is unreadable to plaintext clients which would have been perfectly fine with seeing '* foo'

yeah, that's why I preferred xhtml-im in the first place

that's just ugly

pep., XHTML-IM does exactly that, right

so we’re back to putting markup-things in the <body/>.

XHTML-IM has two bodies

and also have a copy of the text in <body xhtml/>, which is a really bad thing

what no xhtml doesn't do that

or let me reread

doesn’t it?

I thought there were rules on how to generate the plaintext

Ah, ok maybe

jonasw: multipart/alternative has worked "fine" in email since forever? :)

indeed, theer aren’t I think

Zash, it didn’t

Like that email I got that said "click here" ... without a link or anything

pep., so, would you rather have your whatever-XHTML-IM-replacement-there-will-be client put a plaintext body which is unreadable to humans (e.g. my broken list, without '* ') into the message or keep things like '* ' to make it more interpretable?

i.e., would you want your non-XHTML-IM-replacement-capable peer see (a): * foo * bar * baz or rather (b): foo bar baz ?

I'm not sure, yet. I do put pseudo-markup in plaintext fairly often as well, emails (which are usually way more formatted than any of my messages on IM), xmpp also, for stuff like `inline code` etc.

exactly

One thing I know for sure is that I wouldn't want this '* ' crap in the formatted version

exactly

I'll have to think about that a bit more

so why not (a) standardise that pseudo markup so that everybody is on the same page and (b) also make a XEP (which I want Message Markup to be) which specifies how to put proper markup into messages *and* which specifies how a plaintext fallback has to look like?

and also make the plaintext fallback of Message Markup look exactly like the equivalent Styling for instant interop

that’s kind of my plan

I'm not usually sending tables and lists in my chats

neither am I

In my emails maybe, lists definitely

lists I do quite a bit (see above, there were a few :))

but the same holds for quotations, really

you really need the "> " (or other marker) in the plaintext version, but it looks ugly as heck in the rendered markup

I'm actually allergic to people who quote messages that are still in view

I like to quote XEPs/RFCs :)

I usually try not to do that as well

Oh how very nessesary to include the message that is *right above yours*

Fine if it was hours ago and it scrolled out of view

Also "> " quotations are a fairly recent thing here I think, since conversations started it

I usually use "re <whatyouweretalkingabout>"

Or similar

pep., I actually love that conversations adopted that

I don't really

> predates Conversations just ever so slightly. See email.

that's even more clutter

The Skype people that got me into XMPP dev did that all the time, quoting the above message. And it looked horrible because the Linux client wasn't aware of the markup used.

Kev, yeah but it does fit better in email, I don't really like that in IM

I do it in IM, and I've never used a client that showed it as markup. It's human-readable, and obvious what you mean if you're amongst people who're email-literate.

jonasw: The problem isn't really plain-text clients but clients that don't support your markup, no?

Holger, that’s what I mean, yes

do you find the wording confusing?

I get that, still it doesn't feel right to me in IM, you can usually follow a discussion easily in a groupchat, even when there are two discussions going on at the same time. What I would do is just hl the person to whom I'm talking to, and as I said earlier if I need to specify I'll use "re .." or similar

Kev ^

pep., just today I wanted to quote a piece of RFC 6120 to somebody.

it’s not (only) about quoting messages from the same discussion.

jonasw> it’s not (only) about quoting messages from the same discussion. <<< this is annoying tho

also, pep., just because it isn’t *your* use case, does that mean that nobody should be able to do that?

People do use it a lot for this

Zash, I agree.

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

Zash, that’s kinda beside the point of the markup discussion, isn’t it?

jonasw: Yes I wasn't sure whether your concern was terminal clients specifically. While Gajim will have the same problem as long as it doesn't support your XEP and Poezio could support your markup just find by displaying "item" as "* item" or whatever.

Holger, no, I didn’t mean to refer to terminal clients, at all.

But I'm probably just stating the obvious.

Ok :-)

(the fact that poezio has some XHTML-IM support should make that clear, too. It even can into boldface and colors. And italic if you’re on python 3.7 or so)

Yup.

jonasw: An example of bad markup? IIRC quotes weren't actually rendered like that ... unless you used the Linux client (the bare existence of was in itself a crime against humanity)

At work we use Mattermost, which has threads (half-arsed threads, but still), so quotation is indeed useful for things that you are actually quoting. Not replying to someone ✏

Anyway, food is waiting

gl

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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

edhelas, is that you in #rockbox? :)

damn, the XSF minions are stalking me everywhere

I’m sorry ;-)

Guus, you’re one to talk, Mr. Webcam Big Brother

Which potentially makes me an expert on the matter, right? :)

indeed

I really need a new player, the lack of music during my commutes is driving (pun not intended) me crazy.

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

Hmmm, colaborative groupchat music streaming thingymabob?

or: sing yourself?

Zash: jonasw: https://www.goffi.org/post/2012/02/02/Collective-radio-(with-video)

(not sure if it's still working though, I haven't used it for a while)

goffi: fancy, I think I've seen that mentioned before

je ne parle pas into not le francé not I'm afraid

goffi: I'm more looking for something lika moderated mpd instance

And I'd really like get the auto-rating thing from QuodLibet into mpd

Or more of the mpd interface in ql

or both

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

Zash: video is in French indeed, but it's not really need to understand the speach to see the feature

goffi: hard to know without understanding it :)

jonasw, I use Dsub on an android phone, libresonic on the server (though now I heard of a new fork called airsonic but haven't looked into it...)

moparisthebest, "android phone" no.

so many reasons, among which: bad audio quality, bad input device, low battery life

oh no I smell an audiophile, run!!!

eheh :D

MPD + Cantata <3

edhelas, lovely, but that doesn’t work on-the-go unfortunately :)

jonasw: invent time travel, go back to 2001 and steal one of those usb mp3 player-thumbdrives

jonasw using Rockbox on my iPod Photo, Cantata do the sync easily from the MPD DB

Zash, the ones supporting up to mp3 128k?

Zash, I’m in fact hunting for vintage-ish devices to put rockbox on.

Zash, my issue is rather that my vintage device from 2004 broke and it’s hard to find an affordable replacement which I’ll be able to maintain for another 10 years.

going for the same model again (which has 2.5" IDE storage) seems like a bad idea :)

mathieui: the ones that measured in megabytes and you'd better compress it down to that if you want more than one song on it

jonasw you can easily change some HDD into Flash ones with cheap adapters

edhelas, tried that

didn’t work for my h320

changed my IDE connector to CF, then CF to SD then SD to Micro SD now I have 32Gb flash that can be expanded :p

are there still raspberry pi-like devices with 3.5mm connectors? ✏

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Zash, I guess so ...

something like that, with like a battery pack taped to it? :)

Zash, that doesn’t sound fragile at all :)

the last fragile player I had lasted three weeks or so

I'm using some early rev raspberry ip with mpd on it

why did apple stop making the good screenless ... clip ipods?

I like a good screen.

honestly I'd buy a used android phone for $20 or something, not sure what else you would want

jonasw: you listen with your eyes?

good screen, wifi, unlimited storage, 3.5 plug

shuffle!

no, but it’s good for input feedback :)

moparisthebest, I want a proper keyboard, for starters.

touchscreens are annoying to use when on-the-go

wifi ?! but why

I'd be fine with a 'next' button and nothing else

and then you complain that you have to recharge it each 24h :D

just put a big storage, few buttons, simple screen and a big battery

jonasw, motorola droid 1 ?

Orange pi is another sbc

They have a orange pi zero which is really small and has WiFi

moparisthebest, can one control music playback with those hardware keys? ;-)

also, way too many and too tiny

probably?

oh wait if you only want next/previous etc all of them have hardware buttons

up/down etc

moparisthebest: that's me

up down is for volume, isn’t it?

Zash if you want a small mp3 player look on AliExpress and sites like that

you can configure it to be for whatever

moparisthebest, but I need both volume, updown, navigation through the library etc.

without nasty touchness

or unlocking the device, even though a separate device would solve that no matter the OS

They have some nice ones that play flac

jonasw: n900!

jonasw, android phones generally have 3 hardware buttons at the bottom of the screen, volume up/down, and power

any of which you can remap

moparisthebest, those aren’t hardware buttons, those are touch

(usually)

go back in time to the earliest androids that had full hardware keyboards

depends on device, but most devices even though it looks like screen they are actually hardware buttons you can press with screen off

moparisthebest, they are still capacitive touch based

my issue is not that they wouldn’t work with the screen turned off

I am used to operate my playback device without even looking at it

why does that matter?

also, gloves

you make it vibrate when you press them?

winter is coming

I still don’t know which key I hit

or will hit, in advance

it’s about haptic feedback

jonasw: headset? headset with next/prev buttons?

and gloves, yes

I bet some cheap android phones still come with buttons

Zash, that’d add more parameters to the search for earphones

or get something with so little storage that you can only fit good music on it, negating the need to switch songs

moparisthebest, even *if* that is solved: battery life, proper playback software (rockbox on androids is meh), the effort to re-configure the device to act like something it clearly isn’t and audio quality remain as issues

DSub for software, battery life should be plenty if you turn off data?

Zash, having lived with MDs for years, I’d agree. But I have come to like the possiblity to have one or two audiobooks with me without having to manage that

MDs?

my favorite thing about Dsub is it connects to your server, but caches music, and can play offline

Zash, Mini-Discs

moparisthebest, it needs a server?

nope.

jonasw: Heh, get a *drumroll* mp3-cd player! or a walkman!

Zash, I was seriously considering hunting for used MD players.

but then I’m accustomed to the great UI of rockbox, which I’d like to keep. Hands down the best mobile audio player I’ve seen so far.

I wonder if you can put an mp3 player into one of those cassette adapters...

jonasw, that's the good part in my opinion, all my music is on the server, and I pick what it plays/caches whenever I'm connected to the internet

moparisthebest, that’s a downside for me.

how do you put music on it? manually copy it? ew

there are tools for that

it’d require setting up a server and handing the device credentials for internet access, meaning it needs a lockscreen

moparisthebest: what does the caching?

at the point it needs a lockscreen it isn’t suitable for audio playback anymore

Zash, Dsub the client can stream from the server and/or pre-cache them from the server and can then play anything it has offline

Hrr, I want that as a FUSE thing

Zash, I’m working on that!

jonasw: take my bottlecaps!!

Zash, follow this: https://github.com/horazont/dragonstash

the server can optionally transcode on the fly too

if I'm on 4G on the interstate I don't want full flacs, I want tiny oggs

3

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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

Man I loved my minidisc player

Lasted more than 24h on a rechargeable AA, could keep 4 albums compressed on a disc

Only issue is it broke constantly. I think Sony spent at least $1500 repairing it.

They would give you the receipt and it would be $500 - more than I paid for the minidisc player

jjrh, My brother went for MiniDisc both times they tried to launch it.

I always disliked the proprietary nature of them.

like, you can’t have a device which does MD playback and digital output at the same time

jjrh, He also had a DAT deck at home, too.

jonasw, MiniDisc used a custom audio compression codec. Mostly, it was duplicated in MPEG 1's Audio Layer 3.

dwd, depends

but that wasn’t the point, sony wouldn’t license devices with digital outputs to prevent copying

At the time your options were discman, expensive mp3 players with 64-128 of memory - the flash cards were around $100

portable cd players?

yeah discman's or whatever

They had crummy battery life and skipped

not if you held them super still

I had a thing that could read mp3s and not skip thanks to some caching

700 mega f'in bytes of mp3s!

must have been right around the time when it took 15 minutes to download one song

last christmas someone bought the kids a like 'vintage copy toy' of a record player, then explained it to them like an older version of CDs

then we realized my kids don't know what a CD is either :)

disturbing

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

jonasw: not sure what I'm thinking about using go there. would the thing run on a jolla?

Zash, dunno

jolla is an ARM, isn’t it?

I have like two mp3s on my jolla, one ringtone and one for sms singal

Zash, https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/GoArm "possibly™"?

jonasw: hardware wise it's probably same as any android

Zash, I don’t see any reason why not then. golang compiles for ARM. it’s probably even more portable due to lack of runtime dependencies ;-)

just with some redhat-ish systemd based distro

problem two: no sshfs in its repos

Zash, no worries, dragonstash has it’s own SFTP client

don’t let yourself be fooled by the roadmap in the readme, I haven’t updated that in a while

you need kernel support for fuse though

Zash, those mp3 cd players came after - they still skipped

Minidisc was just rock solid

jjrh, unless you shaked the player too much :)

well yeah none of this was a problem if you were sitting still

ah the old days of trying not to scratch them, or cleaning them off with breath and your shirt

flash is so much better

minidiscs didn’t have the dust issue

oh just looked it up, a mini CD inside a 3.5" floppy enclosure?

odd

yeah, kind of

on the discs, the actual optics were a disaster. That's what always broke for me. I had a sony store warranty - best warranty service ever. It was cheaper for them to give me a new minidisc player but instead they fixed the one I had - which I appreciated because I liked that player. Compared to when my creative zen broke and I took it back to futureshop they said "nah we don't have that anymore heres a ipod look it's a upgrade!"

if you really want a ipod mini or whatever though china got ya back https://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-Big-promotion-Mirror-Portable-MP3-player-Mini-Clip-MP3-Player-waterproof-sport-mp3-music-player/32719915116.html

jonasw: *sigh* at yet another build toolchain to install tho

$1.38 can't really go wrong at that price.

Zash, gcc can build go too

if that helps

jonasw: I find your lack of a Makefile .. disturbing

one doesn’t need one with go :/

it’s just go build and magic happens

I’m rather new to go things

it’s my first go project

jonasw: You don't need one with C either, just 'make thing' and it magically compiles thing.c for you

jjrh: hah, shiny, but seems legaly grayareaish

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2016-100-original-English-version-Ultrathin-MP3-Player-with-4GB-storage-and-1-8-Inch-Screen/32613579921.html I bought this a year ago before traveling. It didn't play every flac I had but it was a solid little player. Software and UI could be better.

Zash: all the implicit C make rules make me sad though :( I've had multiple projects break because some random implicit rule was being cached and breaking things

(also I think that's a GNUMake thing, isn't it? If you don't have gmake you're pretty much hosed, but that's not as big of a deal)

SamWhited: I'm more saddened by the lack of a default rule to build .so

Zash, yeah probably wouldn't win a legal battle but hey apple decided not to sell them anymore.

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

It's too bad rockbox doesn't run on any purchable devices.

ebay is your friend

Yeah I suppose, but none of their supported devices are that attractive and the chinese stuff is <$30 for pretty capable hardware.

I should open up my ruizu and see if there is any jtag connections

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I find the iriver h320 quite amazing

the sansas seem fine too

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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

jonasw, Ge0rG: that's how I would like to see invitations implemented in XMPP: http://projects.zapb.de/tmp/xmpp-invite.mkv

excuse my bad video editing skills :D

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marc, that’s a solid start :)

I’m missing a way to copy the URL without the QR-code

jonasw, yes, but showing a URL on the invitation dialog is too easy ;)

:)

and now we need this passwordless :)

what do you mean?

without having to type a password for the registration

and what's the password then? :D

Random password?

the idea was to use client certificates in the background and don’t assign a password at all

to add more devices, you’d have some small protocol which would allow a new device to register itself and its key with the server given a token shown on the first device ✏

a password could be used in addition for recovery purposes

okay, yes that would be nice

wouldn’t it? :)

but that's a complete other task / xep on top, right?

yeah, I guess so

but it belongs in the same big picture of easy onboarding

I wouldn't mix this with invitation

jonasw, of course!

yeah, don’t mix that protocol-wise :)

jonasw, okay, so in your opinion it's worth to write / publish a XEP for this, right?

I think so

I bet it will require some building on

are you familiar with the XEP process?

(like, I can imagine that Ge0rG will have some ideas on this, but the basic idea is solid, I think)

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

jonasw, no I don't :)

marc, so aside from all the formalities, the process is basically: fork and clone the https://github.com/xsf/xeps/ repository, copy xep-template.xml to inbox/my-fancy-new-xep.xml, fill out the blanks and write down what you want to write down, git add, git commit, and make a PR with your commit

if you want more details about the formalities, those are written down in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html but this is probably what you should read first

(Guidelines for Authors of XMPP Extension Protocols)

if you’ve got any further questions, feel free to ask here

jonasw, I'll read this, thanks!

(or ping me specifically, be aware though that PMs don’t work right in this room, IIRC)

(you won’t have to read all of 143, most likely, since much of it is self-explaining, I think)

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings