Ge0rGCan't we just cease Board and Council meeting in the few weeks between DST changes here and over the pond?
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jonaswGe0rG, hasn’t DST changed over already and the actual issue is that the meeting is now effectively an hour earlier everywhere?
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Ge0rGjonasw: if we anchor the meeting time in local time and cease meetings when the DST status is incosnstent between countries, this is probably the least annoyance for everyone except for people who have all their other meetings anchored on UTC
jonaswtimezones suck
jonaswso what you’re saying is not "cease meetings between DST changes" but "anchor meetings on local time instead of UTC".
jonasw(+ the former)
jonasw(because ceasing the meetings wouldn’t have helped with board which was anchored in UTC)
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Ge0rGjonasw: right, exactly that
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pep.jonasw, https://www.mail-archive.com/standards@xmpp.org/msg18154.html, I'm still reading through the threads. "Examples of markup which falls back to plaintext gracefully", and you include xhtml in the counter examples. How is that a counter example
jonaswpep., because <b>this</b> isn’t really readable
jonaswneither is a serialized version of a table, if you assume that tags are stripped
jonaswalso links etc.
ZashBunneh: do ("because <b>this</b> isn’t really readable"):gsub("%b<>","")
BunnehZash: because this isn’t really readable
pep.what Zash said
jonaswZash, great! now do this with a table and an href and see how useful it is :)
Zashjonasw: I think I personally can live with tables getting messed up in IM
pep.jonasw, I'm not sure I get the issue, you can also do that with xhtml, same as markdown
jonaswZash, note that I specifically did not say XHTML-IM, but XHTML.
pep.you'll have to parse both either way
jonaswpep., so <a href="something">here’s the site</a> I’ve been telling you about
jonaswstrip the tag away, it’s useless
pep.no you don't _just_ strip the tag away
jonaswah, then it’s not a simple fallback to plaintext anymore
pep.of course
jonaswand that’s what I’m saying
jonaswwhat I was referring to there is that some markups are immediately readable as plaintext without additional processing
pep.ok, how does markdown falls back gracefully then?
jonaswbecause *this* is pretty much readable
pep.*and *this* is as* well?
jonaswthat’s not useful markdown in the first place
jonaswso kind of not a valid argument here
jonasw(it is equivalent to "<p><em>and </em>this* is as* well?</p>" according to pandoc)
jonaswbut that’s beside the point, kind of. Styling has much stricter rules than anymark and falls back to plaintext gracefully in all cases I think.
pep.granted this is not a valid example. I can certainly find some, and I'm sure people have already.
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jonaswI’ll make one for you: "*foo\*bar*"
jonaswthat’s where things get naughty, and that’s why those cases have been forbidden in Styling
pep.Now thinking about why this question in the first place, why do we need to have this property for the markup?
ZashLet me tell you about mod<em>foo</em>bar
jonaswpep., I never said we do need this property.
jonaswI said that there are sources (read: entities) which emit this type of markup and there always will be and we’ll have to deal with it somehow.
pep.sources such as?
jonaswhumans, for example
jonasw*I* certainly *do* write such content.
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ZashWhat if /I/ write it differently?
pep.I do as well, for stuff that my client doesn't support yet, for the rest I use xhtml-im
jonaswanother case would be:
> the sources Florian quoted when proposing Body Markup Hints
as I mentioned in my email (I’m just quoting here to add more examples of me doing that markup)
jonaswpep., great! now let’s standardize what everyone does so that clients can encourage that behaviour by applying actual styling, thus slowly teaching everybody to use exactly that formatting
jonaswbonus points if we let us inspire by widespread IM systems to make things more familiar
pep.Well we can use actual markup, we don't have to include random stuff in the plaintext
pep.Well we can use actual markup, we don't have to include stuff in the plaintext
jonaswsure
jonaswbut I found with Message Markup that it’s not trivial
jonaswfor example, when I do a list:
* foo
* bar
* baz
ZashWon't any actual XML markup end up in someones DOM with minimal fiddlery? Won't anything resembling Markdown go through a library that does HTML passtrough?
pep.I wouldn't do a list like that if my client supported it
jonaswnow when marking this up with Message Markup, I would either have to remove the '* ' from the body so that the message renders nicely in MM-capable clients, or I keep the '* ' so that plaintext-only clients’ users can still understand what I’m doing
jonaswZash, I don’t think you can make MM end up in any dom with minimal fiddlery
jonaswpep., wait for my point :-)
jonaswor rather, read my point now
jonaswif I decide to keep the '* ', the message looks ugly in MM-capable clients, which’d essentially render each point as '• * foo'
Zashjonasw: Is that a challenge?
jonaswif I drop the '* ', it is unreadable to plaintext clients which would have been perfectly fine with seeing '* foo'
pep.yeah, that's why I preferred xhtml-im in the first place
pep.that's just ugly
jonaswpep., XHTML-IM does exactly that, right
jonaswso we’re back to putting markup-things in the <body/>.
ZashXHTML-IM has two bodies
jonaswand also have a copy of the text in <body xhtml/>, which is a really bad thing
pep.what no xhtml doesn't do that
pep.or let me reread
jonaswdoesn’t it?
jonaswI thought there were rules on how to generate the plaintext
pep.Ah, ok maybe
Zashjonasw: multipart/alternative has worked "fine" in email since forever? :)
jonaswindeed, theer aren’t I think
jonaswZash, it didn’t
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ZashLike that email I got that said "click here" ... without a link or anything
jonaswpep., so, would you rather have your whatever-XHTML-IM-replacement-there-will-be client put a plaintext body which is unreadable to humans (e.g. my broken list, without '* ') into the message or keep things like '* ' to make it more interpretable?
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jonaswi.e., would you want your non-XHTML-IM-replacement-capable peer see (a):
* foo
* bar
* baz
or rather (b):
foo
bar
baz
?
pep.I'm not sure, yet. I do put pseudo-markup in plaintext fairly often as well, emails (which are usually way more formatted than any of my messages on IM), xmpp also, for stuff like `inline code` etc.
jonaswexactly
pep.One thing I know for sure is that I wouldn't want this '* ' crap in the formatted version
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jonaswexactly
pep.I'll have to think about that a bit more
jonaswso why not (a) standardise that pseudo markup so that everybody is on the same page and (b) also make a XEP (which I want Message Markup to be) which specifies how to put proper markup into messages *and* which specifies how a plaintext fallback has to look like?
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jonaswand also make the plaintext fallback of Message Markup look exactly like the equivalent Styling for instant interop
jonaswthat’s kind of my plan
ZashI'm not usually sending tables and lists in my chats
pep.neither am I
pep.In my emails maybe, lists definitely
jonaswlists I do quite a bit (see above, there were a few :))
jonaswbut the same holds for quotations, really
jonaswyou really need the "> " (or other marker) in the plaintext version, but it looks ugly as heck in the rendered markup
ZashI'm actually allergic to people who quote messages that are still in view
jonaswI like to quote XEPs/RFCs :)
pep.I usually try not to do that as well
ZashOh how very nessesary to include the message that is *right above yours*
ZashFine if it was hours ago and it scrolled out of view
pep.Also "> " quotations are a fairly recent thing here I think, since conversations started it
pep.I usually use "re <whatyouweretalkingabout>"
pep.Or similar
jonaswpep., I actually love that conversations adopted that
pep.I don't really
Kev> predates Conversations just ever so slightly. See email.
pep.that's even more clutter
ZashThe Skype people that got me into XMPP dev did that all the time, quoting the above message. And it looked horrible because the Linux client wasn't aware of the markup used.
pep.Kev, yeah but it does fit better in email, I don't really like that in IM
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KevI do it in IM, and I've never used a client that showed it as markup. It's human-readable, and obvious what you mean if you're amongst people who're email-literate.
Holgerjonasw: The problem isn't really plain-text clients but clients that don't support your markup, no?
jonaswHolger, that’s what I mean, yes
jonaswdo you find the wording confusing?
pep.I get that, still it doesn't feel right to me in IM, you can usually follow a discussion easily in a groupchat, even when there are two discussions going on at the same time. What I would do is just hl the person to whom I'm talking to, and as I said earlier if I need to specify I'll use "re .." or similar
pep.Kev ^
jonaswpep., just today I wanted to quote a piece of RFC 6120 to somebody.
jonaswit’s not (only) about quoting messages from the same discussion.
Zashjonasw> it’s not (only) about quoting messages from the same discussion. <<< this is annoying tho
jonaswalso, pep., just because it isn’t *your* use case, does that mean that nobody should be able to do that?
jonaswZash, that’s kinda beside the point of the markup discussion, isn’t it?
Holgerjonasw: Yes I wasn't sure whether your concern was terminal clients specifically. While Gajim will have the same problem as long as it doesn't support your XEP and Poezio could support your markup just find by displaying "item" as "* item" or whatever.
jonaswHolger, no, I didn’t mean to refer to terminal clients, at all.
HolgerBut I'm probably just stating the obvious.
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HolgerOk :-)
jonasw(the fact that poezio has some XHTML-IM support should make that clear, too. It even can into boldface and colors. And italic if you’re on python 3.7 or so)
HolgerYup.
Zashjonasw: An example of bad markup? IIRC quotes weren't actually rendered like that ... unless you used the Linux client (the bare existence of was in itself a crime against humanity)
pep.At work we use Mattermost, which has threads (half-arsed threads, but still), so quotation is indeed useful for things that you are actually quoting. Not just replying to someone
pep.At work we use Mattermost, which has threads (half-arsed threads, but still), so quotation is indeed useful for things that you are actually quoting. Not replying to someone
goffiZash: video is in French indeed, but it's not really need to understand the speach to see the feature
Zashgoffi: hard to know without understanding it :)
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moparisthebestjonasw, I use Dsub on an android phone, libresonic on the server (though now I heard of a new fork called airsonic but haven't looked into it...)
jonaswmoparisthebest, "android phone" no.
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jonaswso many reasons, among which: bad audio quality, bad input device, low battery life
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moparisthebestoh no I smell an audiophile, run!!!
edhelaseheh :D
edhelasMPD + Cantata <3
jonaswedhelas, lovely, but that doesn’t work on-the-go unfortunately :)
Zashjonasw: invent time travel, go back to 2001 and steal one of those usb mp3 player-thumbdrives
edhelasjonasw using Rockbox on my iPod Photo, Cantata do the sync easily from the MPD DB
mathieuiZash, the ones supporting up to mp3 128k?
jonaswZash, I’m in fact hunting for vintage-ish devices to put rockbox on.
jonaswZash, my issue is rather that my vintage device from 2004 broke and it’s hard to find an affordable replacement which I’ll be able to maintain for another 10 years.
jonaswgoing for the same model again (which has 2.5" IDE storage) seems like a bad idea :)
Zashmathieui: the ones that measured in megabytes and you'd better compress it down to that if you want more than one song on it
edhelasjonasw you can easily change some HDD into Flash ones with cheap adapters
jonaswedhelas, tried that
jonaswdidn’t work for my h320
edhelaschanged my IDE connector to CF, then CF to SD then SD to Micro SD now I have 32Gb flash that can be expanded :p
Zashare therte raspberry pi-like devices with 3.5mm connectors?
Zashare there still raspberry pi-like devices with 3.5mm connectors?
jonaswmoparisthebest, I want a proper keyboard, for starters.
jonaswtouchscreens are annoying to use when on-the-go
edhelaswifi ?! but why
ZashI'd be fine with a 'next' button and nothing else
edhelasand then you complain that you have to recharge it each 24h :D
edhelasjust put a big storage, few buttons, simple screen and a big battery
moparisthebestjonasw, motorola droid 1 ?
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jjrhOrange pi is another sbc
jjrhThey have a orange pi zero which is really small and has WiFi
jonaswmoparisthebest, can one control music playback with those hardware keys? ;-)
jonaswalso, way too many and too tiny
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moparisthebestprobably?
moparisthebestoh wait if you only want next/previous etc all of them have hardware buttons
moparisthebestup/down etc
Zashmoparisthebest: that's me
jonaswup down is for volume, isn’t it?
jjrhZash if you want a small mp3 player look on AliExpress and sites like that
moparisthebestyou can configure it to be for whatever
jonaswmoparisthebest, but I need both volume, updown, navigation through the library etc.
jonaswwithout nasty touchness
jonaswor unlocking the device, even though a separate device would solve that no matter the OS
jjrhThey have some nice ones that play flac
Zashjonasw: n900!
moparisthebestjonasw, android phones generally have 3 hardware buttons at the bottom of the screen, volume up/down, and power
moparisthebestany of which you can remap
jonaswmoparisthebest, those aren’t hardware buttons, those are touch
jonasw(usually)
Zashgo back in time to the earliest androids that had full hardware keyboards
moparisthebestdepends on device, but most devices even though it looks like screen they are actually hardware buttons you can press with screen off
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jonaswmoparisthebest, they are still capacitive touch based
jonaswmy issue is not that they wouldn’t work with the screen turned off
jonaswI am used to operate my playback device without even looking at it
moparisthebestwhy does that matter?
Zashalso, gloves
moparisthebestyou make it vibrate when you press them?
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Zashwinter is coming
jonaswI still don’t know which key I hit
jonaswor will hit, in advance
jonaswit’s about haptic feedback
Zashjonasw: headset? headset with next/prev buttons?
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jonaswand gloves, yes
moparisthebestI bet some cheap android phones still come with buttons
jonaswZash, that’d add more parameters to the search for earphones
Zashor get something with so little storage that you can only fit good music on it, negating the need to switch songs
jonaswmoparisthebest, even *if* that is solved: battery life, proper playback software (rockbox on androids is meh), the effort to re-configure the device to act like something it clearly isn’t and audio quality remain as issues
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moparisthebestDSub for software, battery life should be plenty if you turn off data?
jonaswZash, having lived with MDs for years, I’d agree. But I have come to like the possiblity to have one or two audiobooks with me without having to manage that
ZashMDs?
moparisthebestmy favorite thing about Dsub is it connects to your server, but caches music, and can play offline
jonaswZash, Mini-Discs
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jonaswmoparisthebest, it needs a server?
jonaswnope.
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Zashjonasw: Heh, get a *drumroll* mp3-cd player! or a walkman!
jonaswZash, I was seriously considering hunting for used MD players.
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jonaswbut then I’m accustomed to the great UI of rockbox, which I’d like to keep. Hands down the best mobile audio player I’ve seen so far.
ZashI wonder if you can put an mp3 player into one of those cassette adapters...
moparisthebestjonasw, that's the good part in my opinion, all my music is on the server, and I pick what it plays/caches whenever I'm connected to the internet
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jonaswmoparisthebest, that’s a downside for me.
moparisthebesthow do you put music on it? manually copy it? ew
jonaswthere are tools for that
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jonaswit’d require setting up a server and handing the device credentials for internet access, meaning it needs a lockscreen
Zashmoparisthebest: what does the caching?
jonaswat the point it needs a lockscreen it isn’t suitable for audio playback anymore
moparisthebestZash, Dsub the client can stream from the server and/or pre-cache them from the server and can then play anything it has offline
jjrhLasted more than 24h on a rechargeable AA, could keep 4 albums compressed on a disc
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jjrhOnly issue is it broke constantly. I think Sony spent at least $1500 repairing it.
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jjrhThey would give you the receipt and it would be $500 - more than I paid for the minidisc player
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dwdjjrh, My brother went for MiniDisc both times they tried to launch it.
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jonaswI always disliked the proprietary nature of them.
jonaswlike, you can’t have a device which does MD playback and digital output at the same time
dwdjjrh, He also had a DAT deck at home, too.
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dwdjonasw, MiniDisc used a custom audio compression codec. Mostly, it was duplicated in MPEG 1's Audio Layer 3.
jonaswdwd, depends
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jonaswbut that wasn’t the point, sony wouldn’t license devices with digital outputs to prevent copying
jjrhAt the time your options were discman, expensive mp3 players with 64-128 of memory - the flash cards were around $100
Zashportable cd players?
jjrhyeah discman's or whatever
jjrhThey had crummy battery life and skipped
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moparisthebestnot if you held them super still
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ZashI had a thing that could read mp3s and not skip thanks to some caching
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Zash700 mega f'in bytes of mp3s!
Zashmust have been right around the time when it took 15 minutes to download one song
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moparisthebestlast christmas someone bought the kids a like 'vintage copy toy' of a record player, then explained it to them like an older version of CDs
moparisthebestthen we realized my kids don't know what a CD is either :)
Zashjonasw: hardware wise it's probably same as any android
jonaswZash, I don’t see any reason why not then. golang compiles for ARM. it’s probably even more portable due to lack of runtime dependencies ;-)
Zashjust with some redhat-ish systemd based distro
Zashproblem two: no sshfs in its repos
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jonaswZash, no worries, dragonstash has it’s own SFTP client
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jonaswdon’t let yourself be fooled by the roadmap in the readme, I haven’t updated that in a while
jonaswyou need kernel support for fuse though
jjrhZash, those mp3 cd players came after - they still skipped
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jjrhMinidisc was just rock solid
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jonaswjjrh, unless you shaked the player too much :)
jjrhwell yeah none of this was a problem if you were sitting still
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moparisthebestah the old days of trying not to scratch them, or cleaning them off with breath and your shirt
moparisthebestflash is so much better
jonaswminidiscs didn’t have the dust issue
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moparisthebestoh just looked it up, a mini CD inside a 3.5" floppy enclosure?
moparisthebestodd
jonaswyeah, kind of
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jjrhon the discs, the actual optics were a disaster. That's what always broke for me. I had a sony store warranty - best warranty service ever. It was cheaper for them to give me a new minidisc player but instead they fixed the one I had - which I appreciated because I liked that player. Compared to when my creative zen broke and I took it back to futureshop they said "nah we don't have that anymore heres a ipod look it's a upgrade!"
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jjrhif you really want a ipod mini or whatever though china got ya back https://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-Big-promotion-Mirror-Portable-MP3-player-Mini-Clip-MP3-Player-waterproof-sport-mp3-music-player/32719915116.html
Zashjonasw: *sigh* at yet another build toolchain to install tho
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jjrh$1.38 can't really go wrong at that price.
jonaswZash, gcc can build go too
jonaswif that helps
Zashjonasw: I find your lack of a Makefile .. disturbing
jonaswone doesn’t need one with go :/
jonaswit’s just go build and magic happens
jonaswI’m rather new to go things
jonaswit’s my first go project
Zashjonasw: You don't need one with C either, just 'make thing' and it magically compiles thing.c for you
Zashjjrh: hah, shiny, but seems legaly grayareaish
jjrhhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/2016-100-original-English-version-Ultrathin-MP3-Player-with-4GB-storage-and-1-8-Inch-Screen/32613579921.html I bought this a year ago before traveling. It didn't play every flac I had but it was a solid little player. Software and UI could be better.
SamWhitedZash: all the implicit C make rules make me sad though :( I've had multiple projects break because some random implicit rule was being cached and breaking things
SamWhited(also I think that's a GNUMake thing, isn't it? If you don't have gmake you're pretty much hosed, but that's not as big of a deal)
ZashSamWhited: I'm more saddened by the lack of a default rule to build .so
jjrhZash, yeah probably wouldn't win a legal battle but hey apple decided not to sell them anymore.
jonaswI’m missing a way to copy the URL without the QR-code
marcjonasw, yes, but showing a URL on the invitation dialog is too easy ;)
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jonasw:)
jonaswand now we need this passwordless :)
marcwhat do you mean?
jonaswwithout having to type a password for the registration
marcand what's the password then? :D
marcRandom password?
jonaswthe idea was to use client certificates in the background and don’t assign a password at all
jonaswto add more devices, you’d have some small protocol which would allow a new device to register itself and its key with the server given the token
jonaswto add more devices, you’d have some small protocol which would allow a new device to register itself and its key with the server given a token shown on the first device
jonaswa password could be used in addition for recovery purposes
marcokay, yes that would be nice
jonaswwouldn’t it? :)
marcbut that's a complete other task / xep on top, right?
jonaswyeah, I guess so
jonaswbut it belongs in the same big picture of easy onboarding
marcI wouldn't mix this with invitation
marcjonasw, of course!
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jonaswyeah, don’t mix that protocol-wise :)
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marcjonasw, okay, so in your opinion it's worth to write / publish a XEP for this, right?
jonaswI think so
jonaswI bet it will require some building on
jonasware you familiar with the XEP process?
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jonasw(like, I can imagine that Ge0rG will have some ideas on this, but the basic idea is solid, I think)
jonaswmarc, so aside from all the formalities, the process is basically: fork and clone the https://github.com/xsf/xeps/ repository, copy xep-template.xml to inbox/my-fancy-new-xep.xml, fill out the blanks and write down what you want to write down, git add, git commit, and make a PR with your commit
jonaswif you want more details about the formalities, those are written down in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html
jonaswhttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html but this is probably what you should read first
jonasw(Guidelines for Authors of XMPP Extension Protocols)
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jonaswif you’ve got any further questions, feel free to ask here
marcjonasw, I'll read this, thanks!
jonasw(or ping me specifically, be aware though that PMs don’t work right in this room, IIRC)
jonasw(you won’t have to read all of 143, most likely, since much of it is self-explaining, I think)
XSF Discussion - 2017-11-16