XSF Discussion - 2017-11-16


  1. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  2. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  3. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  4. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  5. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  6. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  7. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  8. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  9. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  10. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  11. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  12. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  13. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  14. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  15. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  16. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  17. Ge0rG

    Can't we just cease Board and Council meeting in the few weeks between DST changes here and over the pond?

  18. jonasw

    Ge0rG, hasn’t DST changed over already and the actual issue is that the meeting is now effectively an hour earlier everywhere?

  19. Ge0rG

    jonasw: if we anchor the meeting time in local time and cease meetings when the DST status is incosnstent between countries, this is probably the least annoyance for everyone except for people who have all their other meetings anchored on UTC

  20. jonasw

    timezones suck

  21. jonasw

    so what you’re saying is not "cease meetings between DST changes" but "anchor meetings on local time instead of UTC".

  22. jonasw

    (+ the former)

  23. jonasw

    (because ceasing the meetings wouldn’t have helped with board which was anchored in UTC)

  24. Ge0rG

    jonasw: right, exactly that

  25. pep.

    jonasw, https://www.mail-archive.com/standards@xmpp.org/msg18154.html, I'm still reading through the threads. "Examples of markup which falls back to plaintext gracefully", and you include xhtml in the counter examples. How is that a counter example

  26. jonasw

    pep., because <b>this</b> isn’t really readable

  27. jonasw

    neither is a serialized version of a table, if you assume that tags are stripped

  28. jonasw

    also links etc.

  29. Zash

    Bunneh: do ("because <b>this</b> isn’t really readable"):gsub("%b<>","")

  30. Bunneh

    Zash: because this isn’t really readable

  31. pep.

    what Zash said

  32. jonasw

    Zash, great! now do this with a table and an href and see how useful it is :)

  33. Zash

    jonasw: I think I personally can live with tables getting messed up in IM

  34. pep.

    jonasw, I'm not sure I get the issue, you can also do that with xhtml, same as markdown

  35. jonasw

    Zash, note that I specifically did not say XHTML-IM, but XHTML.

  36. pep.

    you'll have to parse both either way

  37. jonasw

    pep., so <a href="something">here’s the site</a> I’ve been telling you about

  38. jonasw

    strip the tag away, it’s useless

  39. pep.

    no you don't _just_ strip the tag away

  40. jonasw

    ah, then it’s not a simple fallback to plaintext anymore

  41. pep.

    of course

  42. jonasw

    and that’s what I’m saying

  43. jonasw

    what I was referring to there is that some markups are immediately readable as plaintext without additional processing

  44. pep.

    ok, how does markdown falls back gracefully then?

  45. jonasw

    because *this* is pretty much readable

  46. pep.

    *and *this* is as* well?

  47. jonasw

    that’s not useful markdown in the first place

  48. jonasw

    so kind of not a valid argument here

  49. jonasw

    (it is equivalent to "<p><em>and </em>this* is as* well?</p>" according to pandoc)

  50. jonasw

    but that’s beside the point, kind of. Styling has much stricter rules than anymark and falls back to plaintext gracefully in all cases I think.

  51. pep.

    granted this is not a valid example. I can certainly find some, and I'm sure people have already.

  52. jonasw

    I’ll make one for you: "*foo\*bar*"

  53. jonasw

    that’s where things get naughty, and that’s why those cases have been forbidden in Styling

  54. pep.

    Now thinking about why this question in the first place, why do we need to have this property for the markup?

  55. Zash

    Let me tell you about mod<em>foo</em>bar

  56. jonasw

    pep., I never said we do need this property.

  57. jonasw

    I said that there are sources (read: entities) which emit this type of markup and there always will be and we’ll have to deal with it somehow.

  58. pep.

    sources such as?

  59. jonasw

    humans, for example

  60. jonasw

    *I* certainly *do* write such content.

  61. Zash

    What if /I/ write it differently?

  62. pep.

    I do as well, for stuff that my client doesn't support yet, for the rest I use xhtml-im

  63. jonasw

    another case would be: > the sources Florian quoted when proposing Body Markup Hints as I mentioned in my email (I’m just quoting here to add more examples of me doing that markup)

  64. jonasw

    pep., great! now let’s standardize what everyone does so that clients can encourage that behaviour by applying actual styling, thus slowly teaching everybody to use exactly that formatting

  65. jonasw

    bonus points if we let us inspire by widespread IM systems to make things more familiar

  66. pep.

    Well we can use actual markup, we don't have to include random stuff in the plaintext

  67. pep.

    Well we can use actual markup, we don't have to include stuff in the plaintext

  68. jonasw

    sure

  69. jonasw

    but I found with Message Markup that it’s not trivial

  70. jonasw

    for example, when I do a list: * foo * bar * baz

  71. Zash

    Won't any actual XML markup end up in someones DOM with minimal fiddlery? Won't anything resembling Markdown go through a library that does HTML passtrough?

  72. pep.

    I wouldn't do a list like that if my client supported it

  73. jonasw

    now when marking this up with Message Markup, I would either have to remove the '* ' from the body so that the message renders nicely in MM-capable clients, or I keep the '* ' so that plaintext-only clients’ users can still understand what I’m doing

  74. jonasw

    Zash, I don’t think you can make MM end up in any dom with minimal fiddlery

  75. jonasw

    pep., wait for my point :-)

  76. jonasw

    or rather, read my point now

  77. jonasw

    if I decide to keep the '* ', the message looks ugly in MM-capable clients, which’d essentially render each point as '• * foo'

  78. Zash

    jonasw: Is that a challenge?

  79. jonasw

    if I drop the '* ', it is unreadable to plaintext clients which would have been perfectly fine with seeing '* foo'

  80. pep.

    yeah, that's why I preferred xhtml-im in the first place

  81. pep.

    that's just ugly

  82. jonasw

    pep., XHTML-IM does exactly that, right

  83. jonasw

    so we’re back to putting markup-things in the <body/>.

  84. Zash

    XHTML-IM has two bodies

  85. jonasw

    and also have a copy of the text in <body xhtml/>, which is a really bad thing

  86. pep.

    what no xhtml doesn't do that

  87. pep.

    or let me reread

  88. jonasw

    doesn’t it?

  89. jonasw

    I thought there were rules on how to generate the plaintext

  90. pep.

    Ah, ok maybe

  91. Zash

    jonasw: multipart/alternative has worked "fine" in email since forever? :)

  92. jonasw

    indeed, theer aren’t I think

  93. jonasw

    Zash, it didn’t

  94. Zash

    Like that email I got that said "click here" ... without a link or anything

  95. jonasw

    pep., so, would you rather have your whatever-XHTML-IM-replacement-there-will-be client put a plaintext body which is unreadable to humans (e.g. my broken list, without '* ') into the message or keep things like '* ' to make it more interpretable?

  96. jonasw

    i.e., would you want your non-XHTML-IM-replacement-capable peer see (a): * foo * bar * baz or rather (b): foo bar baz ?

  97. pep.

    I'm not sure, yet. I do put pseudo-markup in plaintext fairly often as well, emails (which are usually way more formatted than any of my messages on IM), xmpp also, for stuff like `inline code` etc.

  98. jonasw

    exactly

  99. pep.

    One thing I know for sure is that I wouldn't want this '* ' crap in the formatted version

  100. jonasw

    exactly

  101. pep.

    I'll have to think about that a bit more

  102. jonasw

    so why not (a) standardise that pseudo markup so that everybody is on the same page and (b) also make a XEP (which I want Message Markup to be) which specifies how to put proper markup into messages *and* which specifies how a plaintext fallback has to look like?

  103. jonasw

    and also make the plaintext fallback of Message Markup look exactly like the equivalent Styling for instant interop

  104. jonasw

    that’s kind of my plan

  105. Zash

    I'm not usually sending tables and lists in my chats

  106. pep.

    neither am I

  107. pep.

    In my emails maybe, lists definitely

  108. jonasw

    lists I do quite a bit (see above, there were a few :))

  109. jonasw

    but the same holds for quotations, really

  110. jonasw

    you really need the "> " (or other marker) in the plaintext version, but it looks ugly as heck in the rendered markup

  111. Zash

    I'm actually allergic to people who quote messages that are still in view

  112. jonasw

    I like to quote XEPs/RFCs :)

  113. pep.

    I usually try not to do that as well

  114. Zash

    Oh how very nessesary to include the message that is *right above yours*

  115. Zash

    Fine if it was hours ago and it scrolled out of view

  116. pep.

    Also "> " quotations are a fairly recent thing here I think, since conversations started it

  117. pep.

    I usually use "re <whatyouweretalkingabout>"

  118. pep.

    Or similar

  119. jonasw

    pep., I actually love that conversations adopted that

  120. pep.

    I don't really

  121. Kev

    > predates Conversations just ever so slightly. See email.

  122. pep.

    that's even more clutter

  123. Zash

    The Skype people that got me into XMPP dev did that all the time, quoting the above message. And it looked horrible because the Linux client wasn't aware of the markup used.

  124. pep.

    Kev, yeah but it does fit better in email, I don't really like that in IM

  125. Kev

    I do it in IM, and I've never used a client that showed it as markup. It's human-readable, and obvious what you mean if you're amongst people who're email-literate.

  126. Holger

    jonasw: The problem isn't really plain-text clients but clients that don't support your markup, no?

  127. jonasw

    Holger, that’s what I mean, yes

  128. jonasw

    do you find the wording confusing?

  129. pep.

    I get that, still it doesn't feel right to me in IM, you can usually follow a discussion easily in a groupchat, even when there are two discussions going on at the same time. What I would do is just hl the person to whom I'm talking to, and as I said earlier if I need to specify I'll use "re .." or similar

  130. pep.

    Kev ^

  131. jonasw

    pep., just today I wanted to quote a piece of RFC 6120 to somebody.

  132. jonasw

    it’s not (only) about quoting messages from the same discussion.

  133. Zash

    jonasw> it’s not (only) about quoting messages from the same discussion. <<< this is annoying tho

  134. jonasw

    also, pep., just because it isn’t *your* use case, does that mean that nobody should be able to do that?

  135. pep.

    People do use it a lot for this

  136. jonasw

    Zash, I agree.

  137. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  138. jonasw

    Zash, that’s kinda beside the point of the markup discussion, isn’t it?

  139. Holger

    jonasw: Yes I wasn't sure whether your concern was terminal clients specifically. While Gajim will have the same problem as long as it doesn't support your XEP and Poezio could support your markup just find by displaying "item" as "* item" or whatever.

  140. jonasw

    Holger, no, I didn’t mean to refer to terminal clients, at all.

  141. Holger

    But I'm probably just stating the obvious.

  142. Holger

    Ok :-)

  143. jonasw

    (the fact that poezio has some XHTML-IM support should make that clear, too. It even can into boldface and colors. And italic if you’re on python 3.7 or so)

  144. Holger

    Yup.

  145. Zash

    jonasw: An example of bad markup? IIRC quotes weren't actually rendered like that ... unless you used the Linux client (the bare existence of was in itself a crime against humanity)

  146. pep.

    At work we use Mattermost, which has threads (half-arsed threads, but still), so quotation is indeed useful for things that you are actually quoting. Not just replying to someone

  147. pep.

    At work we use Mattermost, which has threads (half-arsed threads, but still), so quotation is indeed useful for things that you are actually quoting. Not replying to someone

  148. pep.

    Anyway, food is waiting

  149. jonasw

    gl

  150. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  151. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  152. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  153. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  154. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  155. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  156. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  157. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  158. jonasw

    edhelas, is that you in #rockbox? :)

  159. edhelas

    damn, the XSF minions are stalking me everywhere

  160. jonasw

    I’m sorry ;-)

  161. Guus drafts a new wiki page on restraining orders...

  162. jonasw

    Guus, you’re one to talk, Mr. Webcam Big Brother

  163. Guus

    Which potentially makes me an expert on the matter, right? :)

  164. jonasw

    indeed

  165. jonasw

    I really need a new player, the lack of music during my commutes is driving (pun not intended) me crazy.

  166. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  167. Zash

    Hmmm, colaborative groupchat music streaming thingymabob?

  168. Guus

    or: sing yourself?

  169. goffi

    Zash: jonasw: https://www.goffi.org/post/2012/02/02/Collective-radio-(with-video)

  170. goffi

    (not sure if it's still working though, I haven't used it for a while)

  171. Zash

    goffi: fancy, I think I've seen that mentioned before

  172. Zash

    je ne parle pas into not le francé not I'm afraid

  173. Zash

    goffi: I'm more looking for something lika moderated mpd instance

  174. Zash

    And I'd really like get the auto-rating thing from QuodLibet into mpd

  175. Zash

    Or more of the mpd interface in ql

  176. Zash

    or both

  177. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  178. goffi

    Zash: video is in French indeed, but it's not really need to understand the speach to see the feature

  179. Zash

    goffi: hard to know without understanding it :)

  180. moparisthebest

    jonasw, I use Dsub on an android phone, libresonic on the server (though now I heard of a new fork called airsonic but haven't looked into it...)

  181. jonasw

    moparisthebest, "android phone" no.

  182. jonasw

    so many reasons, among which: bad audio quality, bad input device, low battery life

  183. moparisthebest

    oh no I smell an audiophile, run!!!

  184. edhelas

    eheh :D

  185. edhelas

    MPD + Cantata <3

  186. jonasw

    edhelas, lovely, but that doesn’t work on-the-go unfortunately :)

  187. Zash

    jonasw: invent time travel, go back to 2001 and steal one of those usb mp3 player-thumbdrives

  188. edhelas

    jonasw using Rockbox on my iPod Photo, Cantata do the sync easily from the MPD DB

  189. mathieui

    Zash, the ones supporting up to mp3 128k?

  190. jonasw

    Zash, I’m in fact hunting for vintage-ish devices to put rockbox on.

  191. jonasw

    Zash, my issue is rather that my vintage device from 2004 broke and it’s hard to find an affordable replacement which I’ll be able to maintain for another 10 years.

  192. jonasw

    going for the same model again (which has 2.5" IDE storage) seems like a bad idea :)

  193. Zash

    mathieui: the ones that measured in megabytes and you'd better compress it down to that if you want more than one song on it

  194. edhelas

    jonasw you can easily change some HDD into Flash ones with cheap adapters

  195. jonasw

    edhelas, tried that

  196. jonasw

    didn’t work for my h320

  197. edhelas

    changed my IDE connector to CF, then CF to SD then SD to Micro SD now I have 32Gb flash that can be expanded :p

  198. Zash

    are therte raspberry pi-like devices with 3.5mm connectors?

  199. Zash

    are there still raspberry pi-like devices with 3.5mm connectors?

  200. Bjc set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  201. jonasw

    Zash, I guess so ...

  202. Zash

    something like that, with like a battery pack taped to it? :)

  203. jonasw

    Zash, that doesn’t sound fragile at all :)

  204. jonasw

    the last fragile player I had lasted three weeks or so

  205. Zash

    I'm using some early rev raspberry ip with mpd on it

  206. Zash

    why did apple stop making the good screenless ... clip ipods?

  207. jonasw

    I like a good screen.

  208. moparisthebest

    honestly I'd buy a used android phone for $20 or something, not sure what else you would want

  209. Zash

    jonasw: you listen with your eyes?

  210. moparisthebest

    good screen, wifi, unlimited storage, 3.5 plug

  211. Zash

    shuffle!

  212. jonasw

    no, but it’s good for input feedback :)

  213. jonasw

    moparisthebest, I want a proper keyboard, for starters.

  214. jonasw

    touchscreens are annoying to use when on-the-go

  215. edhelas

    wifi ?! but why

  216. Zash

    I'd be fine with a 'next' button and nothing else

  217. edhelas

    and then you complain that you have to recharge it each 24h :D

  218. edhelas

    just put a big storage, few buttons, simple screen and a big battery

  219. moparisthebest

    jonasw, motorola droid 1 ?

  220. jjrh

    Orange pi is another sbc

  221. jjrh

    They have a orange pi zero which is really small and has WiFi

  222. jonasw

    moparisthebest, can one control music playback with those hardware keys? ;-)

  223. jonasw

    also, way too many and too tiny

  224. moparisthebest

    probably?

  225. moparisthebest

    oh wait if you only want next/previous etc all of them have hardware buttons

  226. moparisthebest

    up/down etc

  227. Zash

    moparisthebest: that's me

  228. jonasw

    up down is for volume, isn’t it?

  229. jjrh

    Zash if you want a small mp3 player look on AliExpress and sites like that

  230. moparisthebest

    you can configure it to be for whatever

  231. jonasw

    moparisthebest, but I need both volume, updown, navigation through the library etc.

  232. jonasw

    without nasty touchness

  233. jonasw

    or unlocking the device, even though a separate device would solve that no matter the OS

  234. jjrh

    They have some nice ones that play flac

  235. Zash

    jonasw: n900!

  236. moparisthebest

    jonasw, android phones generally have 3 hardware buttons at the bottom of the screen, volume up/down, and power

  237. moparisthebest

    any of which you can remap

  238. jonasw

    moparisthebest, those aren’t hardware buttons, those are touch

  239. jonasw

    (usually)

  240. Zash

    go back in time to the earliest androids that had full hardware keyboards

  241. moparisthebest

    depends on device, but most devices even though it looks like screen they are actually hardware buttons you can press with screen off

  242. jonasw

    moparisthebest, they are still capacitive touch based

  243. jonasw

    my issue is not that they wouldn’t work with the screen turned off

  244. jonasw

    I am used to operate my playback device without even looking at it

  245. moparisthebest

    why does that matter?

  246. Zash

    also, gloves

  247. moparisthebest

    you make it vibrate when you press them?

  248. Zash

    winter is coming

  249. jonasw

    I still don’t know which key I hit

  250. jonasw

    or will hit, in advance

  251. jonasw

    it’s about haptic feedback

  252. Zash

    jonasw: headset? headset with next/prev buttons?

  253. jonasw

    and gloves, yes

  254. moparisthebest

    I bet some cheap android phones still come with buttons

  255. jonasw

    Zash, that’d add more parameters to the search for earphones

  256. Zash

    or get something with so little storage that you can only fit good music on it, negating the need to switch songs

  257. jonasw

    moparisthebest, even *if* that is solved: battery life, proper playback software (rockbox on androids is meh), the effort to re-configure the device to act like something it clearly isn’t and audio quality remain as issues

  258. moparisthebest

    DSub for software, battery life should be plenty if you turn off data?

  259. jonasw

    Zash, having lived with MDs for years, I’d agree. But I have come to like the possiblity to have one or two audiobooks with me without having to manage that

  260. Zash

    MDs?

  261. moparisthebest

    my favorite thing about Dsub is it connects to your server, but caches music, and can play offline

  262. jonasw

    Zash, Mini-Discs

  263. jonasw

    moparisthebest, it needs a server?

  264. jonasw

    nope.

  265. Zash

    jonasw: Heh, get a *drumroll* mp3-cd player! or a walkman!

  266. jonasw

    Zash, I was seriously considering hunting for used MD players.

  267. jonasw

    but then I’m accustomed to the great UI of rockbox, which I’d like to keep. Hands down the best mobile audio player I’ve seen so far.

  268. Zash

    I wonder if you can put an mp3 player into one of those cassette adapters...

  269. moparisthebest

    jonasw, that's the good part in my opinion, all my music is on the server, and I pick what it plays/caches whenever I'm connected to the internet

  270. jonasw

    moparisthebest, that’s a downside for me.

  271. moparisthebest

    how do you put music on it? manually copy it? ew

  272. jonasw

    there are tools for that

  273. jonasw

    it’d require setting up a server and handing the device credentials for internet access, meaning it needs a lockscreen

  274. Zash

    moparisthebest: what does the caching?

  275. jonasw

    at the point it needs a lockscreen it isn’t suitable for audio playback anymore

  276. moparisthebest

    Zash, Dsub the client can stream from the server and/or pre-cache them from the server and can then play anything it has offline

  277. Zash

    Hrr, I want that as a FUSE thing

  278. jonasw

    Zash, I’m working on that!

  279. Zash

    jonasw: take my bottlecaps!!

  280. jonasw

    Zash, follow this: https://github.com/horazont/dragonstash

  281. moparisthebest

    the server can optionally transcode on the fly too

  282. moparisthebest

    if I'm on 4G on the interstate I don't want full flacs, I want tiny oggs

  283. Tobias

    3

  284. Bjc set the topic to

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  285. Bjc set the topic to

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  286. jjrh

    Man I loved my minidisc player

  287. jjrh

    Lasted more than 24h on a rechargeable AA, could keep 4 albums compressed on a disc

  288. jjrh

    Only issue is it broke constantly. I think Sony spent at least $1500 repairing it.

  289. jjrh

    They would give you the receipt and it would be $500 - more than I paid for the minidisc player

  290. dwd

    jjrh, My brother went for MiniDisc both times they tried to launch it.

  291. jonasw

    I always disliked the proprietary nature of them.

  292. jonasw

    like, you can’t have a device which does MD playback and digital output at the same time

  293. dwd

    jjrh, He also had a DAT deck at home, too.

  294. dwd

    jonasw, MiniDisc used a custom audio compression codec. Mostly, it was duplicated in MPEG 1's Audio Layer 3.

  295. jonasw

    dwd, depends

  296. jonasw

    but that wasn’t the point, sony wouldn’t license devices with digital outputs to prevent copying

  297. jjrh

    At the time your options were discman, expensive mp3 players with 64-128 of memory - the flash cards were around $100

  298. Zash

    portable cd players?

  299. jjrh

    yeah discman's or whatever

  300. jjrh

    They had crummy battery life and skipped

  301. moparisthebest

    not if you held them super still

  302. Zash

    I had a thing that could read mp3s and not skip thanks to some caching

  303. Zash

    700 mega f'in bytes of mp3s!

  304. Zash

    must have been right around the time when it took 15 minutes to download one song

  305. moparisthebest

    last christmas someone bought the kids a like 'vintage copy toy' of a record player, then explained it to them like an older version of CDs

  306. moparisthebest

    then we realized my kids don't know what a CD is either :)

  307. jonasw

    disturbing

  308. Bjc set the topic to

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  309. Zash

    jonasw: not sure what I'm thinking about using go there. would the thing run on a jolla?

  310. jonasw

    Zash, dunno

  311. jonasw

    jolla is an ARM, isn’t it?

  312. Zash

    I have like two mp3s on my jolla, one ringtone and one for sms singal

  313. jonasw

    Zash, https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/GoArm "possibly™"?

  314. Zash

    jonasw: hardware wise it's probably same as any android

  315. jonasw

    Zash, I don’t see any reason why not then. golang compiles for ARM. it’s probably even more portable due to lack of runtime dependencies ;-)

  316. Zash

    just with some redhat-ish systemd based distro

  317. Zash

    problem two: no sshfs in its repos

  318. jonasw

    Zash, no worries, dragonstash has it’s own SFTP client

  319. jonasw

    don’t let yourself be fooled by the roadmap in the readme, I haven’t updated that in a while

  320. jonasw

    you need kernel support for fuse though

  321. jjrh

    Zash, those mp3 cd players came after - they still skipped

  322. jjrh

    Minidisc was just rock solid

  323. jonasw

    jjrh, unless you shaked the player too much :)

  324. jjrh

    well yeah none of this was a problem if you were sitting still

  325. moparisthebest

    ah the old days of trying not to scratch them, or cleaning them off with breath and your shirt

  326. moparisthebest

    flash is so much better

  327. jonasw

    minidiscs didn’t have the dust issue

  328. moparisthebest

    oh just looked it up, a mini CD inside a 3.5" floppy enclosure?

  329. moparisthebest

    odd

  330. jonasw

    yeah, kind of

  331. jjrh

    on the discs, the actual optics were a disaster. That's what always broke for me. I had a sony store warranty - best warranty service ever. It was cheaper for them to give me a new minidisc player but instead they fixed the one I had - which I appreciated because I liked that player. Compared to when my creative zen broke and I took it back to futureshop they said "nah we don't have that anymore heres a ipod look it's a upgrade!"

  332. jjrh

    if you really want a ipod mini or whatever though china got ya back https://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-Big-promotion-Mirror-Portable-MP3-player-Mini-Clip-MP3-Player-waterproof-sport-mp3-music-player/32719915116.html

  333. Zash

    jonasw: *sigh* at yet another build toolchain to install tho

  334. jjrh

    $1.38 can't really go wrong at that price.

  335. jonasw

    Zash, gcc can build go too

  336. jonasw

    if that helps

  337. Zash

    jonasw: I find your lack of a Makefile .. disturbing

  338. jonasw

    one doesn’t need one with go :/

  339. jonasw

    it’s just go build and magic happens

  340. jonasw

    I’m rather new to go things

  341. jonasw

    it’s my first go project

  342. Zash

    jonasw: You don't need one with C either, just 'make thing' and it magically compiles thing.c for you

  343. Zash

    jjrh: hah, shiny, but seems legaly grayareaish

  344. jjrh

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2016-100-original-English-version-Ultrathin-MP3-Player-with-4GB-storage-and-1-8-Inch-Screen/32613579921.html I bought this a year ago before traveling. It didn't play every flac I had but it was a solid little player. Software and UI could be better.

  345. SamWhited

    Zash: all the implicit C make rules make me sad though :( I've had multiple projects break because some random implicit rule was being cached and breaking things

  346. SamWhited

    (also I think that's a GNUMake thing, isn't it? If you don't have gmake you're pretty much hosed, but that's not as big of a deal)

  347. Zash

    SamWhited: I'm more saddened by the lack of a default rule to build .so

  348. jjrh

    Zash, yeah probably wouldn't win a legal battle but hey apple decided not to sell them anymore.

  349. Bjc set the topic to

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  350. jjrh

    It's too bad rockbox doesn't run on any purchable devices.

  351. jonasw

    ebay is your friend

  352. jjrh

    Yeah I suppose, but none of their supported devices are that attractive and the chinese stuff is <$30 for pretty capable hardware.

  353. jjrh

    I should open up my ruizu and see if there is any jtag connections

  354. Bjc set the topic to

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  355. Bjc set the topic to

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  356. Bjc set the topic to

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  357. jonasw

    I find the iriver h320 quite amazing

  358. jonasw

    the sansas seem fine too

  359. Bjc set the topic to

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  360. Bjc set the topic to

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  361. marc

    jonasw, Ge0rG: that's how I would like to see invitations implemented in XMPP: http://projects.zapb.de/tmp/xmpp-invite.mkv

  362. marc

    excuse my bad video editing skills :D

  363. Bjc set the topic to

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  364. jonasw

    marc, that’s a solid start :)

  365. jonasw

    I’m missing a way to copy the URL without the QR-code

  366. marc

    jonasw, yes, but showing a URL on the invitation dialog is too easy ;)

  367. jonasw

    :)

  368. jonasw

    and now we need this passwordless :)

  369. marc

    what do you mean?

  370. jonasw

    without having to type a password for the registration

  371. marc

    and what's the password then? :D

  372. marc

    Random password?

  373. jonasw

    the idea was to use client certificates in the background and don’t assign a password at all

  374. jonasw

    to add more devices, you’d have some small protocol which would allow a new device to register itself and its key with the server given the token

  375. jonasw

    to add more devices, you’d have some small protocol which would allow a new device to register itself and its key with the server given a token shown on the first device

  376. jonasw

    a password could be used in addition for recovery purposes

  377. marc

    okay, yes that would be nice

  378. jonasw

    wouldn’t it? :)

  379. marc

    but that's a complete other task / xep on top, right?

  380. jonasw

    yeah, I guess so

  381. jonasw

    but it belongs in the same big picture of easy onboarding

  382. marc

    I wouldn't mix this with invitation

  383. marc

    jonasw, of course!

  384. jonasw

    yeah, don’t mix that protocol-wise :)

  385. marc

    jonasw, okay, so in your opinion it's worth to write / publish a XEP for this, right?

  386. jonasw

    I think so

  387. jonasw

    I bet it will require some building on

  388. jonasw

    are you familiar with the XEP process?

  389. jonasw

    (like, I can imagine that Ge0rG will have some ideas on this, but the basic idea is solid, I think)

  390. Bjc set the topic to

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  391. Bjc set the topic to

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  392. Bjc set the topic to

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  393. Bjc set the topic to

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  394. marc

    jonasw, no I don't :)

  395. jonasw

    marc, so aside from all the formalities, the process is basically: fork and clone the https://github.com/xsf/xeps/ repository, copy xep-template.xml to inbox/my-fancy-new-xep.xml, fill out the blanks and write down what you want to write down, git add, git commit, and make a PR with your commit

  396. jonasw

    if you want more details about the formalities, those are written down in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html

  397. jonasw

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html but this is probably what you should read first

  398. jonasw

    (Guidelines for Authors of XMPP Extension Protocols)

  399. jonasw

    if you’ve got any further questions, feel free to ask here

  400. marc

    jonasw, I'll read this, thanks!

  401. jonasw

    (or ping me specifically, be aware though that PMs don’t work right in this room, IIRC)

  402. jonasw

    (you won’t have to read all of 143, most likely, since much of it is self-explaining, I think)

  403. Bjc set the topic to

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  404. Bjc set the topic to

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  405. Bjc set the topic to

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  406. Bjc set the topic to

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  407. Bjc set the topic to

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  408. Bjc set the topic to

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  409. Bjc set the topic to

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  410. Bjc set the topic to

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  411. Bjc set the topic to

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  412. Bjc set the topic to

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  413. Bjc set the topic to

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  414. Bjc set the topic to

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  415. Bjc set the topic to

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  416. Bjc set the topic to

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