XSF Discussion - 2017-11-20

Wat

Is there a way to send chat markers only to oneself?

not without losing the association with the conversation they belong to

to other resources, to update the reading status.*

I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages for outbound stanzas? ✏

what’d be the use?

Updating the reading status on other resources

And only that

It's a bit more finegrained than chatstates

mhm

I don’t think there’s something for that

I guess one could specify that servers shall filter outbound chat markerrs for non-presence-subscribed contatcs

Well even contacts, I don't want to send markers

okay

I don’t think that there’s any type of existing protocol here

jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicksnames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms. ✏

same thing

not it's not

hm, feel free to discuss that there

heading out now

k

People talk about anonymous rooms, but that's usually to refer to semi-anonymous rooms, right? From what I see in 0045, full anonymous rooms are a thing of the past

Even if I'd like them back

the admins always know your jid

sure

But owners don't have to

Anyway I just wanted to clarify the point, I'm not here to debate it

what if I don't want anonymous rooms?

zinid, I could return the question. But I'm not here to argue about it atm

Membership Application Q4 closes tomorrow. Many people didn't renew yet, including at least one candidate for Council (which requires membership). Give me a poke if you need a wiki account people!

Guus: speaking of me?

Kind of shady to apply for Council and then not to renew the membership, especially as one of the more active wiki participants

Ge0rG: yes, stop messing with the system! :)

Guus: I really wonder - would the Council election need to be repeated?

No.

If a Council member resigns his or her membership in the Corporation, is removed from membership in the Corporation, or is terminated from membership in the Corporation, he or she shall thereby relinquish all rights and responsibilities as a member of the Council.

Somehow I misremembered the Q4 date, though it's end of this week.

intosi: thanks!

The council can then determine itself whether to fill the vancancy.

Ge0rG: stop procrastinating :)

Guus: I'm awfully busy with real-life things :(

As long as you have your name, contact details, and affiliations listed on that page, you'll be fine ;)

Guus, can I get an account? pep. / pep@bouah.net (or pep, or pep_ if that conflicts with things)

pep. check your mail.

thanks

What's the point in being a member to be able to apply for Council?

Why can't one apply directly?

Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? Ideally, the members voted onto council are not only members, but even experienced members of the community.

intosi: probably everyone should be able to apply and anybody should be able to vote

Membership is meaningless

Everybody vote "yes" always

Yes, that's something I don't like, either.

FWIW, I determine the 'yes' or 'no' for every individual applying or reapplying. I wish more people did this.

* carefully.

I wish the world would be better 😁

It's a start.

zinid, FTFY, I wish the world would be like I want it to be

:P

(I do as well)

zinid: membership as a prerequisite is a good thing, at least it can prevent hostile takeovers.

zinid: BTW, you are able to apply, and you can do so until tomorrow :P

10:00:37 intosi> Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? → but then, why is it not required for board? (I’m not a strong proponent of either, but for the sake of the argument)

I believe the argument is that you have to be technically competent to be on Council, whereas for Board you don't need to be.

Board is less about technical merit or prior involvement with XMPP, Board is more about the knowledge of managing a business/foundation

^

Obvious I think in most cases an XMPP background is beneficial, but I don't think it's essential

On the other hand I think it's pretty essential for Council :)

which (for arguments sake) should in itself be covered by being elected by the rest of the members

did we ever have someone not apply for Council, because he was not a member? Did we ever have an application for membership be rejected?

We've had rejected membership applications. I'm not sure it's easy to know whether someone didn't apply for council because they weren't a member

ah, I didn't expect that. Well, that's a good thing in a way.

zinid, IIRC, membership is restricted if too many people from the same organization/company attempt to join

And membership assumes technical competence?

jonasw: I see several people from the same organization

zinid, don’t quote me on the details

jonasw: what?

it’s just basically the answer I got when I asked why I have to provide my employer, because that’s kind of not-well-defined

Ah

But requiring only a single member from the same organization would be sane

zinid, “Membership in the XMPP Standards Foundation is a privilege that is granted by existing members to active participants in the Jabber/XMPP community.” FYI, which, in one way or another, is supposed to be linked to some technical competence or at least knowledge

the max member/org limitation is stated in the bylaws

mathieui: this is the assumption only

bylaws...

zinid, you can’t really add a technical interview process to XSF membership, it’s not practical

not to mention non-technical people can contribute just as much

mathieui: then don't call it technical

zinid, also, XSF bylaws, 2.1: “An applicant for membership may not be admitted if, at the time of application or consideration, fifteen percent (15%) of the Members of the Corporation are employed by or represent the same corporation or organization as that corporation or organization which employs the applicant or is represented by the applicant.” (what Guus said)

mathieui: anybody counts this percent during elections?

yes.

in fact yes

Ok

in a previous election the was quite the debate

since some applications made the percentage go over 15% or something

That makes for an interesting process...

Voted. Immediately changed my mind and voted again.

Guus: -"no"- "hell no"

Sam, we need strikethrough.

Soon.

~It doesn't work for me~ it works for me!

oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ...

> oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ... That is rendered as italic in conversations, but underlined in gajim. Time for a standard.

Only one? Why not three

time to stop using text-based markup please

(especially strikethrough)

As long as clients understand that ^w should remove the previous word, and ^h the previous character, and render appropriately, of course.

Oh don't get me started on ^W

~no!~^w

Hi guys, I've been super busy (although this should change next month) and haven't been able to follow XSF news. Is the memberbot still able to accet votes? Today should be the last day. If so, how does it work? This would be my first time.

SouL: Just send a message to the memberbot; it will tell you what to do!

I did before asking but... Nothing seems to happpen. I'm going to try again

SouL, you'll need it in your roster.

Ah ok, that's something new :D

ping Guus ^

you need to get added

By Alex.

right, my bad, sorry

zinid, is Konstantin Kozlov some kind of upgraded version of you that writes html emails?

mathieui: I don't know him, but he is Russian, what did you expect?

not sure

when i read the mail this perfectly captures my reaction

https://share.hoerist.com/philipp/llg9Z3tyENAzldF8/0001tgqa.gif

mathieui, lol

I have no control over memberbot, no. Alex is the only one that can, afaik.

Guus, yeah, sorry

no worries

All fixed by now, thank you guys, like always :)

Speaking of the company information, is it possible to update an application if that information changed?

Link Mauve: send a PR?

Ge0rG, no, it’s on the wiki.

Link Mauve: are you talking of the council election or of membership?

I mean, process-wise, I doubt it would cause any harm, but it is a change to my application.

Council in this case.

Link Mauve: maybe you just write "New employer as of 2017-11-XX: B (was: A)"

it would be transparent and I'm pretty sure nobody would mind that.

Ok.

There, fixed.

Maybe posting to members@ as well?

Ouch. The civil discourse on standards@ isn't.

I’m far behind on that. :x

But the Capitole du Libre was a lot of fun!

Good, Link Mauve :) T-Dose was kind of quiet, sadly. There were hardly more people than the ones doing the presentations and manning the stands :/

I had some nice conversations none-the-less.

Is there a rule requiring namespace bumbs for breaking changes in experimental XEP?

It should be up to the author right? Because council couldn't block it anyway

I think that's correct; probably best practice not to break things unless you're pretty sure there are no implementations though.

well, if the protocol change breaks things anyway, why not bump the namespace to make it explicit?

Does the protocol change in such a way that clients following the old version will not be able to interop with those following the new version?

I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload...

Yeah I guess it depends on the definition of breaking...

"Why don't you just do it right from the start?"

Protocol and API design is hard

I'm specifically talking about adding a new attribute to the chat marker xep and removing the received marker

> I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload... In retrospect that was pretty stupid and unnecessary

wel live and learn :)

we*

live, yeah, learn, I'm not so sure

The last MAM bump comes to mind

If only we had some protocol experts that read proposals and suggest improvements

Ge0rG: I am glad that you're stepping up to let us benefit from your wisdom, Ge0rG 😉

Guus: vote Ge0rG!

Ge0rG: the other candidates promised me cake.

The cake is a lie!

Guus: I promise you harsh and merciless criticism! It's your choice

AND HE SCORES!

Ge0rG: that's no added value, as you'll do that regardless of what we ask you to do. 😁

I remember asking some questions about backward compatibility issues with some proposed protocol, some time last year, and then reading about how people ran into them half a year later... I had to focus all my will power to not scream "TOLD YOU SO!!!1!"... 🤣

Ge0rG: Seems we must make our subject lines more clickbaity

"implementors hate him! find out about his one weird trick"

"He implemented OMEMO. You'll never guess what happened next!"

I shall use this new power in future mailings.

Zash: in an attempt to stop me from reading the messages?

Did I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.

Did I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.

Ge0rG: will an active or typing message from another client (MSN) dismiss a notification ad well?

*as well

Ge0rG, which proposed protocol was this?

daniel: not yet, only messages with a body do count. I'm not sure how to handle ephemeral ones.

Flow: I'm not going to name names now.

If you you start typing from another resource, doesn't that suggest that you probably read stuff?

Zash: Maybe. But maybe an "active" was just because you were switching tabs...

Hnngrr

Conversations treats active and typing as read the whole Conversations.

Currently only in 1:1. But soon in muc as well

Maybe I'm mindlessly switching tabs and typing things without ever reading anything?

That's probably also the reason the chat marker xep uses 'displayed' instead of 'understood'

How is that different from an 'active' chat state?

Hi Folks, hope this is the right place, is there a SysOp available that could get me Wiki access?

Fundamentally there is no big difference I presume. Chat markers are maybe a bit more accurate because you can mark that you have displayed up to a specific message and this avoiding race conditions

daniel: What if you don't send active until you've caught up/scrolled all the way down?

Zash, thats not my point. i was thinking a sends message to b. b receives messages. b sends active. a sends another message. a receives active

daniel: so you keep track of receipts too

yes. all that can be achived if you carefully keep track of chat states, delivery receipts and trust that your contact keep the state updated

so having another protocol that does a bit of chat states and a bit of receipts feels awfully redundant to me

i know that you feel that way

Daniel Wisnewski, Ge0rG is one

Guus and Alex too

Ahh, looks like Guus is online/available. Thanks jonasw