pep.Is there a way to send chat markers only to oneself?
jonaswnot without losing the association with the conversation they belong to
pep.to other resources, to update the reading status.*
pep.I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages to outbound stanzas?
pep.I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages for outbound stanzas?
jonaswwhat’d be the use?
pep.Updating the reading status on other resources
pep.And only that
pep.It's a bit more finegrained than chatstates
jonaswmhm
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jonaswI don’t think there’s something for that
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jonaswI guess one could specify that servers shall filter outbound chat markerrs for non-presence-subscribed contatcs
pep.Well even contacts, I don't want to send markers
jonaswokay
jonaswI don’t think that there’s any type of existing protocol here
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pep.jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicknames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms.
pep.jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicksnames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms.
jonaswsame thing
pep.not it's not
jonaswhm, feel free to discuss that there
jonaswheading out now
pep.k
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pep.People talk about anonymous rooms, but that's usually to refer to semi-anonymous rooms, right? From what I see in 0045, full anonymous rooms are a thing of the past
pep.Even if I'd like them back
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Ge0rGthe admins always know your jid
pep.sure
pep.But owners don't have to
pep.Anyway I just wanted to clarify the point, I'm not here to debate it
zinidwhat if I don't want anonymous rooms?
pep.zinid, I could return the question. But I'm not here to argue about it atm
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GuusMembership Application Q4 closes tomorrow. Many people didn't renew yet, including at least one candidate for Council (which requires membership). Give me a poke if you need a wiki account people!
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Ge0rGGuus: speaking of me?
Ge0rGKind of shady to apply for Council and then not to renew the membership, especially as one of the more active wiki participants
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GuusGe0rG: yes, stop messing with the system! :)
Ge0rGGuus: I really wonder - would the Council election need to be repeated?
intosiNo.
intosiIf a Council member resigns his or her membership in the Corporation, is removed from membership in the Corporation, or is terminated from membership in the Corporation, he or she shall thereby relinquish all rights and responsibilities as a member of the Council.
Ge0rGSomehow I misremembered the Q4 date, though it's end of this week.
Ge0rGintosi: thanks!
intosiThe council can then determine itself whether to fill the vancancy.
GuusGe0rG: stop procrastinating :)
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Ge0rGGuus: I'm awfully busy with real-life things :(
intosiAs long as you have your name, contact details, and affiliations listed on that page, you'll be fine ;)
pep.Guus, can I get an account? pep. / pep@bouah.net (or pep, or pep_ if that conflicts with things)
Guuspep. check your mail.
pep.thanks
zinidWhat's the point in being a member to be able to apply for Council?
zinidWhy can't one apply directly?
intosiPerhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? Ideally, the members voted onto council are not only members, but even experienced members of the community.
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zinidintosi: probably everyone should be able to apply and anybody should be able to vote
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zinidMembership is meaningless
zinidEverybody vote "yes" always
intosiYes, that's something I don't like, either.
intosiFWIW, I determine the 'yes' or 'no' for every individual applying or reapplying. I wish more people did this.
intosi* carefully.
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zinidI wish the world would be better 😁
intosiIt's a start.
pep.zinid, FTFY, I wish the world would be like I want it to be
pep.:P
pep.(I do as well)
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Ge0rGzinid: membership as a prerequisite is a good thing, at least it can prevent hostile takeovers.
Ge0rGzinid: BTW, you are able to apply, and you can do so until tomorrow :P
mathieui10:00:37 intosi> Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? → but then, why is it not required for board? (I’m not a strong proponent of either, but for the sake of the argument)
KevI believe the argument is that you have to be technically competent to be on Council, whereas for Board you don't need to be.
MattJBoard is less about technical merit or prior involvement with XMPP, Board is more about the knowledge of managing a business/foundation
Kev^
MattJObvious I think in most cases an XMPP background is beneficial, but I don't think it's essential
MattJOn the other hand I think it's pretty essential for Council :)
Guuswhich (for arguments sake) should in itself be covered by being elected by the rest of the members
Guusdid we ever have someone not apply for Council, because he was not a member? Did we ever have an application for membership be rejected?
MattJWe've had rejected membership applications. I'm not sure it's easy to know whether someone didn't apply for council because they weren't a member
Guusah, I didn't expect that. Well, that's a good thing in a way.
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jonaswzinid, IIRC, membership is restricted if too many people from the same organization/company attempt to join
zinidAnd membership assumes technical competence?
zinidjonasw: I see several people from the same organization
jonaswzinid, don’t quote me on the details
zinidjonasw: what?
jonaswit’s just basically the answer I got when I asked why I have to provide my employer, because that’s kind of not-well-defined
zinidAh
zinidBut requiring only a single member from the same organization would be sane
mathieuizinid, “Membership in the XMPP Standards Foundation is a privilege that is granted by existing members to active participants in the Jabber/XMPP community.” FYI, which, in one way or another, is supposed to be linked to some technical competence or at least knowledge
Guusthe max member/org limitation is stated in the bylaws
zinidmathieui: this is the assumption only
zinidbylaws...
mathieuizinid, you can’t really add a technical interview process to XSF membership, it’s not practical
mathieuinot to mention non-technical people can contribute just as much
zinidmathieui: then don't call it technical
mathieuizinid, also, XSF bylaws, 2.1: “An applicant for membership may not be admitted if, at the time of application or consideration, fifteen percent (15%) of the Members of the Corporation are employed by or represent the same corporation or organization as that corporation or organization which employs the applicant or is represented by the applicant.” (what Guus said)
zinidmathieui: anybody counts this percent during elections?
Guusyes.
mathieuiin fact yes
zinidOk
mathieuiin a previous election the was quite the debate
mathieuisince some applications made the percentage go over 15% or something
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Ge0rGThat makes for an interesting process...
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dwdVoted. Immediately changed my mind and voted again.
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GuusGuus: -"no"- "hell no"
GuusSam, we need strikethrough.
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SamWhitedSoon.
SamWhited~It doesn't work for me~ it works for me!
Guusoh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ...
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vanitasvitae> oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ...
That is rendered as italic in conversations, but underlined in gajim. Time for a standard.
ZashOnly one? Why not three
mathieuitime to stop using text-based markup please
mathieui(especially strikethrough)
KevAs long as clients understand that ^w should remove the previous word, and ^h the previous character, and render appropriately, of course.
ZashOh don't get me started on ^W
Guus~no!~^w
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SouLHi guys, I've been super busy (although this should change next month) and haven't been able to follow XSF news. Is the memberbot still able to accet votes? Today should be the last day. If so, how does it work? This would be my first time.
SamWhitedSouL: Just send a message to the memberbot; it will tell you what to do!
SouLI did before asking but... Nothing seems to happpen. I'm going to try again
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dwdSouL, you'll need it in your roster.
SouLAh ok, that's something new :D
mathieuiping Guus ^
mathieuiyou need to get added
dwdBy Alex.
mathieuiright, my bad, sorry
mathieuizinid, is Konstantin Kozlov some kind of upgraded version of you that writes html emails?
zinidmathieui: I don't know him, but he is Russian, what did you expect?
mathieuinot sure
lovetoxwhen i read the mail this perfectly captures my reaction
GuusI have no control over memberbot, no. Alex is the only one that can, afaik.
mathieuiGuus, yeah, sorry
Guusno worries
SouLAll fixed by now, thank you guys, like always :)
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Link MauveSpeaking of the company information, is it possible to update an application if that information changed?
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Ge0rGLink Mauve: send a PR?
Link MauveGe0rG, no, it’s on the wiki.
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Ge0rGLink Mauve: are you talking of the council election or of membership?
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Link MauveI mean, process-wise, I doubt it would cause any harm, but it is a change to my application.
Link MauveCouncil in this case.
Ge0rGLink Mauve: maybe you just write "New employer as of 2017-11-XX: B (was: A)"
Ge0rGit would be transparent and I'm pretty sure nobody would mind that.
Link MauveOk.
Link MauveThere, fixed.
ZashMaybe posting to members@ as well?
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Ge0rGOuch. The civil discourse on standards@ isn't.
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Link MauveI’m far behind on that. :x
Link MauveBut the Capitole du Libre was a lot of fun!
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GuusGood, Link Mauve :) T-Dose was kind of quiet, sadly. There were hardly more people than the ones doing the presentations and manning the stands :/
GuusI had some nice conversations none-the-less.
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danielIs there a rule requiring namespace bumbs for breaking changes in experimental XEP?
danielIt should be up to the author right? Because council couldn't block it anyway
SamWhitedI think that's correct; probably best practice not to break things unless you're pretty sure there are no implementations though.
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Guuswell, if the protocol change breaks things anyway, why not bump the namespace to make it explicit?
ZashDoes the protocol change in such a way that clients following the old version will not be able to interop with those following the new version?
GuusI've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload...
danielYeah I guess it depends on the definition of breaking...
Zash"Why don't you just do it right from the start?"
ZashProtocol and API design is hard
danielI'm specifically talking about adding a new attribute to the chat marker xep and removing the received marker
daniel> I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload...
In retrospect that was pretty stupid and unnecessary
Guuswel live and learn :)
Guuswe*
Zashlive, yeah, learn, I'm not so sure
ZashThe last MAM bump comes to mind
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Ge0rGIf only we had some protocol experts that read proposals and suggest improvements
GuusGe0rG: I am glad that you're stepping up to let us benefit from your wisdom, Ge0rG 😉
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Ge0rGGuus: vote Ge0rG!
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GuusGe0rG: the other candidates promised me cake.
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ZashThe cake is a lie!
Ge0rGGuus: I promise you harsh and merciless criticism! It's your choice
GuusAND HE SCORES!
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GuusGe0rG: that's no added value, as you'll do that regardless of what we ask you to do. 😁
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Ge0rGI remember asking some questions about backward compatibility issues with some proposed protocol, some time last year, and then reading about how people ran into them half a year later... I had to focus all my will power to not scream "TOLD YOU SO!!!1!"... 🤣
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ZashGe0rG: Seems we must make our subject lines more clickbaity
mathieui"implementors hate him! find out about his one weird trick"
Guus"He implemented OMEMO. You'll never guess what happened next!"
GuusI shall use this new power in future mailings.
Ge0rGZash: in an attempt to stop me from reading the messages?
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Ge0rGDid I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.
Ge0rGDid I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.
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danielGe0rG: will an active or typing message from another client (MSN) dismiss a notification ad well?
daniel*as well
FlowGe0rG, which proposed protocol was this?
Ge0rGdaniel: not yet, only messages with a body do count. I'm not sure how to handle ephemeral ones.
Ge0rGFlow: I'm not going to name names now.
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ZashIf you you start typing from another resource, doesn't that suggest that you probably read stuff?
Ge0rGZash: Maybe. But maybe an "active" was just because you were switching tabs...
ZashHnngrr
danielConversations treats active and typing as read the whole Conversations.
danielCurrently only in 1:1. But soon in muc as well
ZashMaybe I'm mindlessly switching tabs and typing things without ever reading anything?
danielThat's probably also the reason the chat marker xep uses 'displayed' instead of 'understood'
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ZashHow is that different from an 'active' chat state?
Daniel WisnewskiHi Folks, hope this is the right place, is there a SysOp available that could get me Wiki access?
danielFundamentally there is no big difference I presume. Chat markers are maybe a bit more accurate because you can mark that you have displayed up to a specific message and this avoiding race conditions
Zashdaniel: What if you don't send active until you've caught up/scrolled all the way down?
danielZash, thats not my point. i was thinking a sends message to b. b receives messages. b sends active. a sends another message. a receives active
Zashdaniel: so you keep track of receipts too
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danielyes. all that can be achived if you carefully keep track of chat states, delivery receipts and trust that your contact keep the state updated
Zashso having another protocol that does a bit of chat states and a bit of receipts feels awfully redundant to me
danieli know that you feel that way
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jonaswDaniel Wisnewski, Ge0rG is one
jonaswGuus and Alex too
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Daniel WisnewskiAhh, looks like Guus is online/available. Thanks jonasw
XSF Discussion - 2017-11-20