XSF Discussion - 2017-11-20

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  110. pep.

    Is there a way to send chat markers only to oneself?

  111. jonasw

    not without losing the association with the conversation they belong to

  112. pep.

    to other resources, to update the reading status.*

  113. pep.

    I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages to outbound stanzas?

  114. pep.

    I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages for outbound stanzas?

  115. jonasw

    what’d be the use?

  116. pep.

    Updating the reading status on other resources

  117. pep.

    And only that

  118. pep.

    It's a bit more finegrained than chatstates

  119. jonasw


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  121. jonasw

    I don’t think there’s something for that

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  123. jonasw

    I guess one could specify that servers shall filter outbound chat markerrs for non-presence-subscribed contatcs

  124. pep.

    Well even contacts, I don't want to send markers

  125. jonasw


  126. jonasw

    I don’t think that there’s any type of existing protocol here

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  133. pep.

    jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicknames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms.

  134. pep.

    jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicksnames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms.

  135. jonasw

    same thing

  136. pep.

    not it's not

  137. jonasw

    hm, feel free to discuss that there

  138. jonasw

    heading out now

  139. pep.


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  144. pep.

    People talk about anonymous rooms, but that's usually to refer to semi-anonymous rooms, right? From what I see in 0045, full anonymous rooms are a thing of the past

  145. pep.

    Even if I'd like them back

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  147. Ge0rG

    the admins always know your jid

  148. pep.


  149. pep.

    But owners don't have to

  150. pep.

    Anyway I just wanted to clarify the point, I'm not here to debate it

  151. zinid

    what if I don't want anonymous rooms?

  152. pep.

    zinid, I could return the question. But I'm not here to argue about it atm

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  154. Guus

    Membership Application Q4 closes tomorrow. Many people didn't renew yet, including at least one candidate for Council (which requires membership). Give me a poke if you need a wiki account people!

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  158. Ge0rG

    Guus: speaking of me?

  159. Ge0rG

    Kind of shady to apply for Council and then not to renew the membership, especially as one of the more active wiki participants

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  161. Guus

    Ge0rG: yes, stop messing with the system! :)

  162. Ge0rG

    Guus: I really wonder - would the Council election need to be repeated?

  163. intosi


  164. intosi

    If a Council member resigns his or her membership in the Corporation, is removed from membership in the Corporation, or is terminated from membership in the Corporation, he or she shall thereby relinquish all rights and responsibilities as a member of the Council.

  165. Ge0rG

    Somehow I misremembered the Q4 date, though it's end of this week.

  166. Ge0rG

    intosi: thanks!

  167. intosi

    The council can then determine itself whether to fill the vancancy.

  168. Guus

    Ge0rG: stop procrastinating :)

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  170. Ge0rG

    Guus: I'm awfully busy with real-life things :(

  171. intosi

    As long as you have your name, contact details, and affiliations listed on that page, you'll be fine ;)

  172. pep.

    Guus, can I get an account? pep. / pep@bouah.net (or pep, or pep_ if that conflicts with things)

  173. Guus

    pep. check your mail.

  174. pep.


  175. zinid

    What's the point in being a member to be able to apply for Council?

  176. zinid

    Why can't one apply directly?

  177. intosi

    Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? Ideally, the members voted onto council are not only members, but even experienced members of the community.

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  180. zinid

    intosi: probably everyone should be able to apply and anybody should be able to vote

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  182. zinid

    Membership is meaningless

  183. zinid

    Everybody vote "yes" always

  184. intosi

    Yes, that's something I don't like, either.

  185. intosi

    FWIW, I determine the 'yes' or 'no' for every individual applying or reapplying. I wish more people did this.

  186. intosi

    * carefully.

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  188. zinid

    I wish the world would be better 😁

  189. intosi

    It's a start.

  190. pep.

    zinid, FTFY, I wish the world would be like I want it to be

  191. pep.


  192. pep.

    (I do as well)

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  194. Ge0rG

    zinid: membership as a prerequisite is a good thing, at least it can prevent hostile takeovers.

  195. Ge0rG

    zinid: BTW, you are able to apply, and you can do so until tomorrow :P

  196. mathieui

    10:00:37 intosi> Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? → but then, why is it not required for board? (I’m not a strong proponent of either, but for the sake of the argument)

  197. Kev

    I believe the argument is that you have to be technically competent to be on Council, whereas for Board you don't need to be.

  198. MattJ

    Board is less about technical merit or prior involvement with XMPP, Board is more about the knowledge of managing a business/foundation

  199. Kev


  200. MattJ

    Obvious I think in most cases an XMPP background is beneficial, but I don't think it's essential

  201. MattJ

    On the other hand I think it's pretty essential for Council :)

  202. Guus

    which (for arguments sake) should in itself be covered by being elected by the rest of the members

  203. Guus

    did we ever have someone not apply for Council, because he was not a member? Did we ever have an application for membership be rejected?

  204. MattJ

    We've had rejected membership applications. I'm not sure it's easy to know whether someone didn't apply for council because they weren't a member

  205. Guus

    ah, I didn't expect that. Well, that's a good thing in a way.

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  207. jonasw

    zinid, IIRC, membership is restricted if too many people from the same organization/company attempt to join

  208. zinid

    And membership assumes technical competence?

  209. zinid

    jonasw: I see several people from the same organization

  210. jonasw

    zinid, don’t quote me on the details

  211. zinid

    jonasw: what?

  212. jonasw

    it’s just basically the answer I got when I asked why I have to provide my employer, because that’s kind of not-well-defined

  213. zinid


  214. zinid

    But requiring only a single member from the same organization would be sane

  215. mathieui

    zinid, “Membership in the XMPP Standards Foundation is a privilege that is granted by existing members to active participants in the Jabber/XMPP community.” FYI, which, in one way or another, is supposed to be linked to some technical competence or at least knowledge

  216. Guus

    the max member/org limitation is stated in the bylaws

  217. zinid

    mathieui: this is the assumption only

  218. zinid


  219. mathieui

    zinid, you can’t really add a technical interview process to XSF membership, it’s not practical

  220. mathieui

    not to mention non-technical people can contribute just as much

  221. zinid

    mathieui: then don't call it technical

  222. mathieui

    zinid, also, XSF bylaws, 2.1: “An applicant for membership may not be admitted if, at the time of application or consideration, fifteen percent (15%) of the Members of the Corporation are employed by or represent the same corporation or organization as that corporation or organization which employs the applicant or is represented by the applicant.” (what Guus said)

  223. zinid

    mathieui: anybody counts this percent during elections?

  224. Guus


  225. mathieui

    in fact yes

  226. zinid


  227. mathieui

    in a previous election the was quite the debate

  228. mathieui

    since some applications made the percentage go over 15% or something

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  231. Ge0rG

    That makes for an interesting process...

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  336. dwd

    Voted. Immediately changed my mind and voted again.

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  338. Guus

    Guus: -"no"- "hell no"

  339. Guus

    Sam, we need strikethrough.

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  346. SamWhited

    ~It doesn't work for me~ it works for me!

  347. Guus

    oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ...

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  354. vanitasvitae

    > oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ... That is rendered as italic in conversations, but underlined in gajim. Time for a standard.

  355. Zash

    Only one? Why not three

  356. mathieui

    time to stop using text-based markup please

  357. mathieui

    (especially strikethrough)

  358. Kev

    As long as clients understand that ^w should remove the previous word, and ^h the previous character, and render appropriately, of course.

  359. Zash

    Oh don't get me started on ^W

  360. Guus


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  366. SouL

    Hi guys, I've been super busy (although this should change next month) and haven't been able to follow XSF news. Is the memberbot still able to accet votes? Today should be the last day. If so, how does it work? This would be my first time.

  367. SamWhited

    SouL: Just send a message to the memberbot; it will tell you what to do!

  368. SouL

    I did before asking but... Nothing seems to happpen. I'm going to try again

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  370. dwd

    SouL, you'll need it in your roster.

  371. SouL

    Ah ok, that's something new :D

  372. mathieui

    ping Guus ^

  373. mathieui

    you need to get added

  374. dwd

    By Alex.

  375. mathieui

    right, my bad, sorry

  376. mathieui

    zinid, is Konstantin Kozlov some kind of upgraded version of you that writes html emails?

  377. zinid

    mathieui: I don't know him, but he is Russian, what did you expect?

  378. mathieui

    not sure

  379. lovetox

    when i read the mail this perfectly captures my reaction

  380. lovetox


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  383. jonasw

    mathieui, lol

  384. Guus

    I have no control over memberbot, no. Alex is the only one that can, afaik.

  385. mathieui

    Guus, yeah, sorry

  386. Guus

    no worries

  387. SouL

    All fixed by now, thank you guys, like always :)

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  402. Link Mauve

    Speaking of the company information, is it possible to update an application if that information changed?

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  404. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: send a PR?

  405. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, no, it’s on the wiki.

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  407. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: are you talking of the council election or of membership?

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  410. Link Mauve

    I mean, process-wise, I doubt it would cause any harm, but it is a change to my application.

  411. Link Mauve

    Council in this case.

  412. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: maybe you just write "New employer as of 2017-11-XX: B (was: A)"

  413. Ge0rG

    it would be transparent and I'm pretty sure nobody would mind that.

  414. Link Mauve


  415. Link Mauve

    There, fixed.

  416. Zash

    Maybe posting to members@ as well?

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  418. Ge0rG

    Ouch. The civil discourse on standards@ isn't.

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  420. Link Mauve

    I’m far behind on that. :x

  421. Link Mauve

    But the Capitole du Libre was a lot of fun!

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  433. Guus

    Good, Link Mauve :) T-Dose was kind of quiet, sadly. There were hardly more people than the ones doing the presentations and manning the stands :/

  434. Guus

    I had some nice conversations none-the-less.

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  463. daniel

    Is there a rule requiring namespace bumbs for breaking changes in experimental XEP?

  464. daniel

    It should be up to the author right? Because council couldn't block it anyway

  465. SamWhited

    I think that's correct; probably best practice not to break things unless you're pretty sure there are no implementations though.

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  468. Guus

    well, if the protocol change breaks things anyway, why not bump the namespace to make it explicit?

  469. Zash

    Does the protocol change in such a way that clients following the old version will not be able to interop with those following the new version?

  470. Guus

    I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload...

  471. daniel

    Yeah I guess it depends on the definition of breaking...

  472. Zash

    "Why don't you just do it right from the start?"

  473. Zash

    Protocol and API design is hard

  474. daniel

    I'm specifically talking about adding a new attribute to the chat marker xep and removing the received marker

  475. daniel

    > I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload... In retrospect that was pretty stupid and unnecessary

  476. Guus

    wel live and learn :)

  477. Guus


  478. Zash

    live, yeah, learn, I'm not so sure

  479. Zash

    The last MAM bump comes to mind

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  482. Ge0rG

    If only we had some protocol experts that read proposals and suggest improvements

  483. Guus

    Ge0rG: I am glad that you're stepping up to let us benefit from your wisdom, Ge0rG 😉

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  485. Ge0rG

    Guus: vote Ge0rG!

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  487. Guus

    Ge0rG: the other candidates promised me cake.

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  489. Zash

    The cake is a lie!

  490. Ge0rG

    Guus: I promise you harsh and merciless criticism! It's your choice

  491. Guus


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  494. Guus

    Ge0rG: that's no added value, as you'll do that regardless of what we ask you to do. 😁

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  496. Ge0rG

    I remember asking some questions about backward compatibility issues with some proposed protocol, some time last year, and then reading about how people ran into them half a year later... I had to focus all my will power to not scream "TOLD YOU SO!!!1!"... 🤣

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  498. Zash

    Ge0rG: Seems we must make our subject lines more clickbaity

  499. mathieui

    "implementors hate him! find out about his one weird trick"

  500. Guus

    "He implemented OMEMO. You'll never guess what happened next!"

  501. Guus

    I shall use this new power in future mailings.

  502. Ge0rG

    Zash: in an attempt to stop me from reading the messages?

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  506. Ge0rG

    Did I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.

  507. Ge0rG

    Did I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.

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  518. daniel

    Ge0rG: will an active or typing message from another client (MSN) dismiss a notification ad well?

  519. daniel

    *as well

  520. Flow

    Ge0rG, which proposed protocol was this?

  521. Ge0rG

    daniel: not yet, only messages with a body do count. I'm not sure how to handle ephemeral ones.

  522. Ge0rG

    Flow: I'm not going to name names now.

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  525. Zash

    If you you start typing from another resource, doesn't that suggest that you probably read stuff?

  526. Ge0rG

    Zash: Maybe. But maybe an "active" was just because you were switching tabs...

  527. Zash


  528. daniel

    Conversations treats active and typing as read the whole Conversations.

  529. daniel

    Currently only in 1:1. But soon in muc as well

  530. Zash

    Maybe I'm mindlessly switching tabs and typing things without ever reading anything?

  531. daniel

    That's probably also the reason the chat marker xep uses 'displayed' instead of 'understood'

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  533. Zash

    How is that different from an 'active' chat state?

  534. Daniel Wisnewski

    Hi Folks, hope this is the right place, is there a SysOp available that could get me Wiki access?

  535. daniel

    Fundamentally there is no big difference I presume. Chat markers are maybe a bit more accurate because you can mark that you have displayed up to a specific message and this avoiding race conditions

  536. Zash

    daniel: What if you don't send active until you've caught up/scrolled all the way down?

  537. daniel

    Zash, thats not my point. i was thinking a sends message to b. b receives messages. b sends active. a sends another message. a receives active

  538. Zash

    daniel: so you keep track of receipts too

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  540. daniel

    yes. all that can be achived if you carefully keep track of chat states, delivery receipts and trust that your contact keep the state updated

  541. Zash

    so having another protocol that does a bit of chat states and a bit of receipts feels awfully redundant to me

  542. daniel

    i know that you feel that way

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  545. jonasw

    Daniel Wisnewski, Ge0rG is one

  546. jonasw

    Guus and Alex too

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  548. Daniel Wisnewski

    Ahh, looks like Guus is online/available. Thanks jonasw

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