Is there a way to send chat markers only to oneself?
jonasw
not without losing the association with the conversation they belong to
pep.
to other resources, to update the reading status.*
pep.
I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages to outbound stanzas?✎
pep.
I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages for outbound stanzas? ✏
jonasw
what’d be the use?
pep.
Updating the reading status on other resources
pep.
And only that
pep.
It's a bit more finegrained than chatstates
jonasw
mhm
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jonasw
I don’t think there’s something for that
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jonasw
I guess one could specify that servers shall filter outbound chat markerrs for non-presence-subscribed contatcs
pep.
Well even contacts, I don't want to send markers
jonasw
okay
jonasw
I don’t think that there’s any type of existing protocol here
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pep.
jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicknames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms.✎
pep.
jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicksnames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms. ✏
jonasw
same thing
pep.
not it's not
jonasw
hm, feel free to discuss that there
jonasw
heading out now
pep.
k
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pep.
People talk about anonymous rooms, but that's usually to refer to semi-anonymous rooms, right? From what I see in 0045, full anonymous rooms are a thing of the past
pep.
Even if I'd like them back
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Ge0rG
the admins always know your jid
pep.
sure
pep.
But owners don't have to
pep.
Anyway I just wanted to clarify the point, I'm not here to debate it
zinid
what if I don't want anonymous rooms?
pep.
zinid, I could return the question. But I'm not here to argue about it atm
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Guus
Membership Application Q4 closes tomorrow. Many people didn't renew yet, including at least one candidate for Council (which requires membership). Give me a poke if you need a wiki account people!
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Ge0rG
Guus: speaking of me?
Ge0rG
Kind of shady to apply for Council and then not to renew the membership, especially as one of the more active wiki participants
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Guus
Ge0rG: yes, stop messing with the system! :)
Ge0rG
Guus: I really wonder - would the Council election need to be repeated?
intosi
No.
intosi
If a Council member resigns his or her membership in the Corporation, is removed from membership in the Corporation, or is terminated from membership in the Corporation, he or she shall thereby relinquish all rights and responsibilities as a member of the Council.
Ge0rG
Somehow I misremembered the Q4 date, though it's end of this week.
Ge0rG
intosi: thanks!
intosi
The council can then determine itself whether to fill the vancancy.
Guus
Ge0rG: stop procrastinating :)
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Ge0rG
Guus: I'm awfully busy with real-life things :(
intosi
As long as you have your name, contact details, and affiliations listed on that page, you'll be fine ;)
pep.
Guus, can I get an account? pep. / pep@bouah.net (or pep, or pep_ if that conflicts with things)
Guus
pep. check your mail.
pep.
thanks
zinid
What's the point in being a member to be able to apply for Council?
zinid
Why can't one apply directly?
intosi
Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? Ideally, the members voted onto council are not only members, but even experienced members of the community.
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zinid
intosi: probably everyone should be able to apply and anybody should be able to vote
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zinid
Membership is meaningless
zinid
Everybody vote "yes" always
intosi
Yes, that's something I don't like, either.
intosi
FWIW, I determine the 'yes' or 'no' for every individual applying or reapplying. I wish more people did this.
intosi
* carefully.
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zinid
I wish the world would be better 😁
intosi
It's a start.
pep.
zinid, FTFY, I wish the world would be like I want it to be
pep.
:P
pep.
(I do as well)
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Ge0rG
zinid: membership as a prerequisite is a good thing, at least it can prevent hostile takeovers.
Ge0rG
zinid: BTW, you are able to apply, and you can do so until tomorrow :P
mathieui
10:00:37 intosi> Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? → but then, why is it not required for board? (I’m not a strong proponent of either, but for the sake of the argument)
Kev
I believe the argument is that you have to be technically competent to be on Council, whereas for Board you don't need to be.
MattJ
Board is less about technical merit or prior involvement with XMPP, Board is more about the knowledge of managing a business/foundation
Kev
^
MattJ
Obvious I think in most cases an XMPP background is beneficial, but I don't think it's essential
MattJ
On the other hand I think it's pretty essential for Council :)
Guus
which (for arguments sake) should in itself be covered by being elected by the rest of the members
Guus
did we ever have someone not apply for Council, because he was not a member? Did we ever have an application for membership be rejected?
MattJ
We've had rejected membership applications. I'm not sure it's easy to know whether someone didn't apply for council because they weren't a member
Guus
ah, I didn't expect that. Well, that's a good thing in a way.
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jonasw
zinid, IIRC, membership is restricted if too many people from the same organization/company attempt to join
zinid
And membership assumes technical competence?
zinid
jonasw: I see several people from the same organization
jonasw
zinid, don’t quote me on the details
zinid
jonasw: what?
jonasw
it’s just basically the answer I got when I asked why I have to provide my employer, because that’s kind of not-well-defined
zinid
Ah
zinid
But requiring only a single member from the same organization would be sane
mathieui
zinid, “Membership in the XMPP Standards Foundation is a privilege that is granted by existing members to active participants in the Jabber/XMPP community.” FYI, which, in one way or another, is supposed to be linked to some technical competence or at least knowledge
Guus
the max member/org limitation is stated in the bylaws
zinid
mathieui: this is the assumption only
zinid
bylaws...
mathieui
zinid, you can’t really add a technical interview process to XSF membership, it’s not practical
mathieui
not to mention non-technical people can contribute just as much
zinid
mathieui: then don't call it technical
mathieui
zinid, also, XSF bylaws, 2.1: “An applicant for membership may not be admitted if, at the time of application or consideration, fifteen percent (15%) of the Members of the Corporation are employed by or represent the same corporation or organization as that corporation or organization which employs the applicant or is represented by the applicant.” (what Guus said)
zinid
mathieui: anybody counts this percent during elections?
Guus
yes.
mathieui
in fact yes
zinid
Ok
mathieui
in a previous election the was quite the debate
mathieui
since some applications made the percentage go over 15% or something
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Ge0rG
That makes for an interesting process...
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dwd
Voted. Immediately changed my mind and voted again.
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Guus
Guus: -"no"- "hell no"
Guus
Sam, we need strikethrough.
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SamWhited
Soon.
SamWhited
~It doesn't work for me~ it works for me!
Guus
oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ...
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vanitasvitae
> oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ...
That is rendered as italic in conversations, but underlined in gajim. Time for a standard.
Zash
Only one? Why not three
mathieui
time to stop using text-based markup please
mathieui
(especially strikethrough)
Kev
As long as clients understand that ^w should remove the previous word, and ^h the previous character, and render appropriately, of course.
Zash
Oh don't get me started on ^W
Guus
~no!~^w
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SouL
Hi guys, I've been super busy (although this should change next month) and haven't been able to follow XSF news. Is the memberbot still able to accet votes? Today should be the last day. If so, how does it work? This would be my first time.
SamWhited
SouL: Just send a message to the memberbot; it will tell you what to do!
SouL
I did before asking but... Nothing seems to happpen. I'm going to try again
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dwd
SouL, you'll need it in your roster.
SouL
Ah ok, that's something new :D
mathieui
ping Guus ^
mathieui
you need to get added
dwd
By Alex.
mathieui
right, my bad, sorry
mathieui
zinid, is Konstantin Kozlov some kind of upgraded version of you that writes html emails?
zinid
mathieui: I don't know him, but he is Russian, what did you expect?
mathieui
not sure
lovetox
when i read the mail this perfectly captures my reaction
I have no control over memberbot, no. Alex is the only one that can, afaik.
mathieui
Guus, yeah, sorry
Guus
no worries
SouL
All fixed by now, thank you guys, like always :)
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Link Mauve
Speaking of the company information, is it possible to update an application if that information changed?
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: send a PR?
Link Mauve
Ge0rG, no, it’s on the wiki.
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: are you talking of the council election or of membership?
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Link Mauve
I mean, process-wise, I doubt it would cause any harm, but it is a change to my application.
Link Mauve
Council in this case.
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: maybe you just write "New employer as of 2017-11-XX: B (was: A)"
Ge0rG
it would be transparent and I'm pretty sure nobody would mind that.
Link Mauve
Ok.
Link Mauve
There, fixed.
Zash
Maybe posting to members@ as well?
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Ge0rG
Ouch. The civil discourse on standards@ isn't.
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Link Mauve
I’m far behind on that. :x
Link Mauve
But the Capitole du Libre was a lot of fun!
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Guus
Good, Link Mauve :) T-Dose was kind of quiet, sadly. There were hardly more people than the ones doing the presentations and manning the stands :/
Guus
I had some nice conversations none-the-less.
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daniel
Is there a rule requiring namespace bumbs for breaking changes in experimental XEP?
daniel
It should be up to the author right? Because council couldn't block it anyway
SamWhited
I think that's correct; probably best practice not to break things unless you're pretty sure there are no implementations though.
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Guus
well, if the protocol change breaks things anyway, why not bump the namespace to make it explicit?
Zash
Does the protocol change in such a way that clients following the old version will not be able to interop with those following the new version?
Guus
I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload...
daniel
Yeah I guess it depends on the definition of breaking...
Zash
"Why don't you just do it right from the start?"
Zash
Protocol and API design is hard
daniel
I'm specifically talking about adding a new attribute to the chat marker xep and removing the received marker
daniel
> I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload...
In retrospect that was pretty stupid and unnecessary
Guus
wel live and learn :)
Guus
we*
Zash
live, yeah, learn, I'm not so sure
Zash
The last MAM bump comes to mind
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Ge0rG
If only we had some protocol experts that read proposals and suggest improvements
Guus
Ge0rG: I am glad that you're stepping up to let us benefit from your wisdom, Ge0rG 😉
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Ge0rG
Guus: vote Ge0rG!
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Guus
Ge0rG: the other candidates promised me cake.
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Zash
The cake is a lie!
Ge0rG
Guus: I promise you harsh and merciless criticism! It's your choice
Guus
AND HE SCORES!
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Guus
Ge0rG: that's no added value, as you'll do that regardless of what we ask you to do. 😁
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Ge0rG
I remember asking some questions about backward compatibility issues with some proposed protocol, some time last year, and then reading about how people ran into them half a year later... I had to focus all my will power to not scream "TOLD YOU SO!!!1!"... 🤣
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Zash
Ge0rG: Seems we must make our subject lines more clickbaity
mathieui
"implementors hate him! find out about his one weird trick"
Guus
"He implemented OMEMO. You'll never guess what happened next!"
Guus
I shall use this new power in future mailings.
Ge0rG
Zash: in an attempt to stop me from reading the messages?
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Ge0rG
Did I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.
Ge0rG
Did I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.
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daniel
Ge0rG: will an active or typing message from another client (MSN) dismiss a notification ad well?
daniel
*as well
Flow
Ge0rG, which proposed protocol was this?
Ge0rG
daniel: not yet, only messages with a body do count. I'm not sure how to handle ephemeral ones.
Ge0rG
Flow: I'm not going to name names now.
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Zash
If you you start typing from another resource, doesn't that suggest that you probably read stuff?
Ge0rG
Zash: Maybe. But maybe an "active" was just because you were switching tabs...
Zash
Hnngrr
daniel
Conversations treats active and typing as read the whole Conversations.
daniel
Currently only in 1:1. But soon in muc as well
Zash
Maybe I'm mindlessly switching tabs and typing things without ever reading anything?
daniel
That's probably also the reason the chat marker xep uses 'displayed' instead of 'understood'
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Zash
How is that different from an 'active' chat state?
Daniel Wisnewski
Hi Folks, hope this is the right place, is there a SysOp available that could get me Wiki access?
daniel
Fundamentally there is no big difference I presume. Chat markers are maybe a bit more accurate because you can mark that you have displayed up to a specific message and this avoiding race conditions
Zash
daniel: What if you don't send active until you've caught up/scrolled all the way down?
daniel
Zash, thats not my point. i was thinking a sends message to b. b receives messages. b sends active. a sends another message. a receives active
Zash
daniel: so you keep track of receipts too
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daniel
yes. all that can be achived if you carefully keep track of chat states, delivery receipts and trust that your contact keep the state updated
Zash
so having another protocol that does a bit of chat states and a bit of receipts feels awfully redundant to me
daniel
i know that you feel that way
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jonasw
Daniel Wisnewski, Ge0rG is one
jonasw
Guus and Alex too
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Daniel Wisnewski
Ahh, looks like Guus is online/available. Thanks jonasw