XSF Discussion - 2017-11-22

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    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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  136. tux

    Congratulations to the new council members!

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  138. tux

    erm... And the new board members, too. :)

  139. tux

    (Somehow council elections were more prominent to me.)

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  143. daniel

    dwd, Kev: yes I'm pretty mich available all day. So 1630Z or what ever you suggested works for me

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  145. Kev

    Fab, ta.

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  147. Ge0rG

    I'm very hopeful regarding 1630Z as well. Might be a bit unresponsive while entering a train, but not absolutely unavailable.

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  149. Ge0rG

    I've added the Minutes link to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2017 and now I hope I'm not breaking the page-copy-paste process for next year's election.

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  153. Guus

    Who's formally going to apply the tie-breaking process for the remaining Board position? The secretary? Old Board? New Board?

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  160. Alex

    Guus: was quickly reading RFC 3797 last night, but havent really understood how this algo works, needs more reading ;-)

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  162. Ge0rG

    Alex: TL;DR: we need a pool of candidates (check) and an algorithm that will be applied on a future random-generating event (e.g. state lottery numbers)

  163. dwd

    Alex, Pick something happening soonish (like, say, Euromillions draw). Define how we get from that to an answer. We could just hash a string of the lottery result as 2-digit decimal ASCII numbers in ascending order. Then pull the least significant bit. Odd is Nÿco, even is Arc.

  164. Ge0rG

    dwd: should the ASCII string be terminated by a newline?

  165. dwd

    Ge0rG, I don't think it makes any (predictable) difference to the outcome, so we may as well for simplicity. I'd pick a strong hash algorithm just so we can claim that anyone fixing the Euromillions draw purely to pick one or other wouldn't know what to fix it to.

  166. dwd

    Although if they can fix the draw, please let me know so I can buy a ticket for once.

  167. Guus

    the RFC talks about combining various sources (eg: Euromillioins and the value of some stock exchange by the closing on a particular date in the future)

  168. Ge0rG

    dwd: let's just add a foot note that in case an XSF member wins a significant amount of money, we need to declare the result as void and choose another state-run lottery.

  169. jonasw

    dwd, :D

  170. dwd

    Guus, Yes, but that's to increase the entropy required, which is given in a formula - we only need a single bit as I understand things.

  171. Guus

    dwd, agreed. And as our pool size is fixed to '2', a simple odd/even determinator will work.

  172. Guus

    I'm primarily interested in making sure that someone is actively persuing a resolution at this point though :)

  173. Ge0rG

    RFC3739 §4 provides a string normalization algorithm.

  174. Alex

    I am not a gambler on only familiar with the german lottery, every weekend they pick 7 numbers out of a pool from 1 - 47 if I remember correctly

  175. jonasw

    i thought 6?

  176. jonasw

    ah, maybe seven, but the seventh has special meaning or something

  177. Alex

    jonasw: jonasw no idea, could be also 6 ;-)

  178. Guus

    we could use the least significant number in a stock exchange course?

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  181. Guus

    Alex, not to add to the workload, but perhaps you should put up memberbot for the membership application q4?

  182. Guus

    submission deadline was yesterday

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  184. Alex

    Guus: yes, will be available later toda

  185. Guus


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  193. Alex

    memberbot is up for the next voting period ;-)

  194. Ge0rG

    Looks like we have some Non-Reappliers?

  195. mathieui

    thanks Alex

  196. Alex

    Ge0rG: yes

  197. Alex

    I usually push them and remind several times by Email

  198. Ge0rG

    Right, the point of no return has been reached. There will be a Q5.

  199. Alex


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  217. dwd

    I've scribbled a suggestion for a concrete RFC 3739 implementation for us on the members@ list. It's dated for Friday, which seemed like a reasonable timeline. If there's something concretely wrong, please point it out. If you're happy with it, please say so. And please don't turn this into a bike shed.

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  222. lovetox

    why not just take the last number of the euro million draw, and say if its 1-6 candidate 1 wins, 7-12 candidate 2

  223. lovetox

    i dont get why there is hashing needed

  224. Alex

    dwd: you take the last byte E0 in your example, or just the last char 0?

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  231. Alex

    or do we just go from ricght to left until we find a "0" or "1" char?

  232. dwd

    Alex, Bit - 0 ends in a 0 bit. But loosely, odd numbers Nicolas, even numbers Arc.

  233. dwd

    lovetox, Makes it closer to RFC 3797, basically. It's certainly the most over-engineered coin-toss one could possibly wish for, I know.

  234. dwd

    Alex, So last characters 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, A, C, E would end in a 0-bit. The rest in a 1-bit.

  235. Alex


  236. Alex

    just did the Friday draw

  237. Alex

    data: hash: a33d86c56740f1291fde14dd6b89b371644a9023834ff71665bd79160dd90719

  238. Alex

    ending with a 1 bit, so would be Nicolas

  239. dwd

    Alex, I get the same result, indeed.

  240. Alex

    I second that proposal ;-)

  241. Alex

    was confused because you mentioned modulo in your email

  242. dwd

    Alex, Yeah... If you treat the hash as an enormous integer and modulo by the size of the list, it's the same thing. Just expressed in terms of the size of the list - which we know to be 2, so it's simple.

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  245. lovetox

    its true that you cant predict what the result on friday may be, but did you make sure both candidates have equal chance of winning?

  246. lovetox

    these are two different matters

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  249. Alex

    dwd: ya, next time when we habe a tie with 3 or more ;-)

  250. Guus

    Thanks Dave

  251. Guus

    looks fine

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  257. dwd

    It'd be good to get agreement from arc and nyco, mind.

  258. dwd

    lovetox, We assume that the lottery is completely random across its range, and that the hash output has a uniform distribution of bits. I believe the first is a reasonable assumption, and I believe that disproving the second would lead to a sudden move to SHA-3.

  259. Zash

    As long as it is independently verifiable

  260. Zash

    So, link to this lottery ?

  261. dwd

    Zash, In my email - but also https://www.euro-millions.com/results

  262. Zash

    And a clear description of the algorithm so anyone an run it

  263. dwd

    Zash, Also in my email.

  264. Zash

    "That is covered in my email" ?

  265. dwd

    Zash, https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2017-November/008696.html <-- That email.

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  275. ralphm

    Thanks for picking this up dwd

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  281. dwd

    ralphm, No prob. I felt it'd be better coming from someone off Board anyway. And I dimly recall being partially responsible for the RFC 3797 rule anyway after last time. (Which, as I recall, also involved Nyco - though I genuinely can't remember).

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  283. dwd

    ralphm, Ah, no, I recall slightly wrong - the tie was between David Banes and Michael Rémond, but Nÿco was the "fourth" member, and we voted to drop the Board to the top 3, not 4, in order to maintain an odd number - which lost Nÿco. https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2009-October/005230.html

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  304. Ge0rG

    dwd: you forgot to explicitly specify the ordering of the lottery results.

  305. dwd

    Ge0rG, Isn't this enough? "2) Each number will be arranged in ascending order, separated by dots, and terminated by "./". "

  306. Ge0rG

    dwd: oops, my bad, sorry!

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  308. dwd

    Ge0rG, Don't worry. I'd rather people pointed things out and were wrong than an error wasn't spotted until too late.

  309. Ge0rG

    dwd: still, reading the mail on my smartphone in a moving tram and immediately accusing you of negligence was impolite at best.

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  311. Ge0rG

    So my appointment ended early, which means I have the time for the council meeting. Now I just need to hope for good network coverage...

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  316. dwd

    Ge0rG, We're aiming for 16:30 UTC, so 17:30 CET I believe. So you've more than an hour to find a café with WiFi.

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  318. dwd

    Ge0rG, Also, you weren't impolite, and nor did you accuse me of negligence. You reviewed something important and thought you'd spotted something, which is very welcome.

  319. Ge0rG

    dwd: I'm boarding a train in 10 minutes, and it will have bad wifi. I can't influence the network quality except by pulling the emergency brake, but that will considerably delay my arrival at home 🤔

  320. dwd

    Ge0rG, We'll have to hope we did a good job with all those mobile extensions, then. :-)

  321. Ge0rG

    dwd: the largest blocker on the first trip today was poezio's broken reconnect code and that nasty MUC self ping IQ routing problem

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  323. dwd

    Ge0rG, It'd be nice to get MIX moving again.

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  325. zinid

    it would be nice to burn it with fire ;)

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  328. Ge0rG

    Indeed, I've recently made another approach at the XEP, and I've read almost half of it. Unfortunately, I wrote my notes as messages-to-self and they weren't logged because of infrastructure problems. They are now captured in the yaxim SQLite storage of a phone with empty battery.

  329. Steve Kille

    dwd: in what way??

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  331. Guus

    Steve Kille: make it a draft standard? :)

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  334. Kev

    I think it's a little bit raw for that.

  335. Guus

    I was referring to the intended direction.

  336. Steve Kille

    We want this direction

  337. Steve Kille

    Need some implementations

  338. Guus

    sorry, my semi-funny remark wasn't helpful.

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  341. ralphm

    As for the Board meeting. I look like this right now, and using any screen terribly hard:

  342. ralphm


  343. mathieui

    ralphm, what happened? are you ok?

  344. ralphm

    Damaged my cornea somehow. Should be fine in a few days

  345. Guus

    ouch. Get well soon, Ralph

  346. Zash

    ralphm: get well! and don't overwork your other eye

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  349. ralphm


  350. ralphm

    Welcome Guus especially

  351. ralphm

    Who do we have

  352. Guus

    wait, you're an hour early?

  353. Ge0rG

    Council hasn't met yet

  354. ralphm

    Ah yes

  355. ralphm

    Adjourned then

  356. ralphm

    I missed the change of time

  357. Guus

    (Also, in an hour this building is closing down, so at best, I'll join the meeting via mobile from a parking lot somehwere)

  358. ralphm bangs gavel

  359. Kev

    May I suggest to Board that having a meeting before Board are selected is probably suboptimal, given the first order needs to be electing a Chair?

  360. uc

    , .,

  361. uc

    Oops Sorry

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  363. ralphm

    Well, hah, so first of all, there are 4 definitely elected board members and they can meet as usual. Second, I thought it would be important to affirm Dave's suggestion to resolve the tie.

  364. ralphm

    There is no strict rule for the first meeting to elect its chair.

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  367. Kev

    There isn't, but it seems odd not to.

  368. ralphm

    Bylaws say one year or until elected. I agree all is weird. But the method to resolve the tie has to be affirmed in some official capacity, no?

  369. Kev


  370. Kev

    At least, I don't believe so. I think we fixed this in the bylaws last time it happened.

  371. Guus

    Kev: agreed. I think it's primarily up to Alex, rather than board.

  372. Ge0rG

    > in the case of a tie for the final remaining position, the final individual shall be chosen in accordance with the procedures defined in “RFC 3797: Publicly Verifiable Nominations Committee (NomCom) Random Selection” published by the Internet Engineering Task Force. There is nothing about who is responsible for that process.

  373. dwd

    Kev, Yeah, the RFC 3797 mechanism is in the bylaws. The precise choices are not. The only affirmation I'd really like to see (beyond a few members giving it the nod) is for Alex (as Secretary), and Arc and Nÿco (as those affected).

  374. ralphm

    Ge0rG: in all matters unspecified, I believe the board or the executive committee can do this

  375. moparisthebest

    but is there a board until the tie is resolved? what if all the board election is a tie?

  376. ralphm

    And I agree with dwd otherwise

  377. ralphm

    There is currently a 4 person Board

  378. Zash

    This does seem like a thing done by those administrating The Meeting

  379. dwd

    moparisthebest, The former is unspecified. I think technically, we should pick the RFC 3797 process prior to the election. If the entire Board is a tie one year, the selection still operates by RFC 3797.

  380. moparisthebest

    yea but not if the rule is 'the board has to agree to the algorithm'

  381. dwd

    ralphm, I'm not entirely sure if there *is* a Board. There *is* a Chair, though.

  382. dwd

    moparisthebest, Good point, well made.

  383. Zash

    Clarification of the bylaws in order? :)

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  385. dwd

    Zash, Maybe. We could also declare that in the event of multiple interpretations of the rules, the Secretary's word is final.

  386. Ge0rG

    Who has the authority to determine whether a certain process is RFC3797 compliant?

  387. Zash

    dwd: Sure. And then put that into the bylaws.

  388. moparisthebest

    I think assuming lottery is random and not-riggable is fine, if you could rig it, why would you use that power to influence XSF board/council members?

  389. Ge0rG

    I think that adding the Secretary as the authority sounds reasonable, but what happens if somebody vetoes the RFC3797 compliance?

  390. ralphm

    dwd: I read 3.13 that all but the tied candidates for the last remaining position are simply elected

  391. dwd

    moparisthebest, Says exactly that in the RFC, actually. :-)

  392. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: "<Ge0rG> dwd: let's just add a foot note that in case an XSF member wins a significant amount of money, we need to declare the result as void and choose another state-run lottery."

  393. dwd

    ralphm, I can go along with that, actually. Particularly as it talks about "Election of individuals", suggesting they're elected individually rather than as a Board entire.

  394. moparisthebest

    I'm not sure how much money would buy my board/council vote, but certainly a small % of a lottery win would do it :P

  395. ralphm

    And indeed, I'm still chair. I'm not sure if stpeter is still executive officer, though, given the one year term and his non-appointment last year.

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  397. ralphm


  398. Zash

    Does the new board start directly after the election?

  399. Kev

    Zash: Yeah.

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  403. ralphm

    Actually, I am wrong. He was appointed, and indicated intent to resign

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  415. ralphm

    Ok, what now then?

  416. Martin


  417. ralphm

    I suggested just just hold a quick meeting affirming dwd's method

  418. Martin

    Works for me

  419. ralphm

    And then arrange a new meeting after Friday's lottery

  420. Ge0rG

    IMHO, what dwd said is reasonable.

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  422. Kev

    I think nyco and arc agreeing to it would be optimal.

  423. ralphm


  424. ralphm


  425. Kev

    And also that in future elections, we should probably state this method in advance :)

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  427. ralphm

    Alex are you here, too?

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  429. Ge0rG

    Kev: it might be hard to find an appropriate wording for the bylaws that doesn't open up to potential abuse.

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  431. ralphm

    Good luck cheating the lottery. If you manage that, by all means be a Board member

  432. Kev

    Ge0rG: I don't think it needs going in the bylaws - the bylaws say what to do.

  433. intosi

    ^ what ralphm said.

  434. Ge0rG

    Kev: but not how to do it

  435. intosi

    Stating it in th emeeting announcement should suffice.

  436. Kev

    As far as I'm concerned, Alex simply stating that this is the mechanism is sufficient.

  437. ralphm

    I agree with Kev

  438. ralphm


  439. Ge0rG

    Kev: unless somebody points out that it violates RFC 3797.

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  441. ralphm

    0. Welcome and agenda

  442. ralphm

    Who's here?

  443. Guus

    I am

  444. Guus

    kind of

  445. Martin

    I'm here

  446. Guus

    in process of getting kicked out of building.

  447. Martin

    2.5 isn't really quorate

  448. ralphm

    No MattJ?

  449. Guus

    I'll respond eventually :)

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  452. MattJ


  453. MattJ


  454. ralphm

    Arc, nyco ?

  455. ralphm

    Ok all elected in attendance

  456. ralphm

    I have one agenda item: resolving the tie

  457. Guus

    That's up to Alex, isn't it?

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  459. ralphm

    1. Resolving the tie for 5th director

  460. ralphm

    So, there has been a suggestion by dwd to resolve this according to the bylaws

  461. ralphm

    Additionally, there's some unclarity how the foundation selects this as accepted

  462. ralphm

    I motion that the Board affirms dwd's method, having seen no objections

  463. Martin


  464. ralphm

    Of course comments of Members are welcome

  465. Guus

    Although I'm perfectly fine with the suggested method, it's purpose is to safeguard Alex from accusations of bias. Its for him to agree on, I believe.

  466. Ge0rG

    I consider dwd's proposal very reasonable, especially the part about approval by the two affected nominees.

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  468. ralphm

    I'd be happy to make it conditional on that

  469. intosi

    Sounds good to me with that condition.

  470. Kev

    I think that we actually more or less *have* to leave this to Alex to agree to.

  471. daniel has joined

  472. ralphm

    Kev: can you explain why?

  473. Kev

    Because either the bylaws are ok for him to do so, in which case yay, or the bylaws need changing before we can have a new Board, and that means voting and blah.

  474. ralphm

    To be clear, we *have* a new Board IMO

  475. Ge0rG

    IMO it is compliant to RFC3739, but in case of incompliance there should be a reasonable vetoing approach. I think that having a single person who defines that it is compliant is insufficient.

  476. ralphm

    Ge0rG: this is why I thought it useful to affirm by the Board. I like the suggestion of having the candidates needing to agree, and of course Alex will need to execute (and agree).

  477. ralphm

    I was hoping all involved to be here

  478. Guus

    Well, everyone appears to agree with Dave's method

  479. Ge0rG

    ralphm: right. What Kev said almost read to me like only Alex needs to affirm the method.

  480. Guus

    So perhaps Alex can just execute, assuming he agrees to the method too, and we don't have to worry about bother potential scenarios.

  481. ralphm


  482. intosi

    Kev might be right that his affirmation is all that is required. However, that does not mean that board and member affirming that's the way to go isn't a good thing.

  483. intosi

    Especially if it's affirmed by all parties directly involved.

  484. arc

    I'm fine with this

  485. Ge0rG

    intosi: I think this boils down to who is allowed to veto

  486. ralphm


  487. Guus

    I don't think we can sensibly do more now, with all other parties absent.

  488. dwd

    Ge0rG, Push comes to shove, the members can remove the whole of the Board and redo the election.

  489. intosi

    ^ I tried to say what dwd said, but didn't manage to find words even closely as eloquent.

  490. ralphm

    I think Board can also appoint the vacancy, so that's why I think it is sufficient for the Board to agree.

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  492. Guus

    ralphm: that'd be weird. We could fill the vacancy to force a vote in a particular direction that way.

  493. dwd

    ralphm, No, not also. We need to complete this first. I'm not even sure if, technically, either of Arc or Nyco can withdraw.

  494. ralphm


  495. ralphm

    I'm happy to debate this all day, but I think we have enough to go on

  496. Guus

    Let's put this on hold until Alex responds.

  497. Alex

    I agree on Daves suggestion and I am happy to execute on it

  498. arc

    Honestly I think way more thought is being put into this than is needed. Let's see what the Friday lottery results in and move forward

  499. Guus


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  501. Alex

    Dave said the next draw in Friday, so we should have the 5th borad member by the end of this week using the random election method

  502. ralphm

    Ok. If nyco does not object before the lottery executes, this is what we do.

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  505. ralphm

    dwd: can you write minutes?

  506. ralphm

    2. Date of Next

  507. ralphm

    tbd on list

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  510. Guus

    What list?

  511. dwd

    ralphm, Yes, I'll knock something brief out.

  512. ralphm

    3. Close

  513. ralphm

    Guus: board list

  514. Guus

    I'm not on board list yet, I believe.

  515. dwd

    Guus, board@, one assumes.

  516. ralphm

    Kev can add you

  517. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  518. Guus


  519. ralphm bangs gavel

  520. ralphm


  521. Martin

    Cheerio all

  522. intosi

    Roaring Ralph.

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  527. ralphm

    (for those who missed it, scroll up for my picture)

  528. Kev

    Get well, Ralph.

  529. Guus

    Kev: mind adding me to board list?

  530. dwd

    ralphm, You know an eyepatch is meant to be black, right?

  531. ralphm

    Best they had

  532. Guus

    dwd: I'm missing a parrot.

  533. ralphm

    Also pretty sure most pirates had a white one first

  534. Guus

    Ok, I'm off. Car / parking lot / cold.

  535. Kev

    Mail me so I've got the mail address in my inbox.

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  539. Guus

    Kev: my Gmail please

  540. Guus

    See my application

  541. ralphm

    Oh, also congrats on council and dwd as chair

  542. ralphm

    (of council)

  543. dwd

    ralphm, Ta!

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  732. Ge0rG

    I think a single talk slot won't suffice any more at the upcoming Summit. Too many problems in https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf

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  734. mathieui

    oh, you updated it

  735. mathieui

    maybe we need to have the summit last one more day and give one full day to Ge0rG

  736. Ge0rG

    mathieui: my immediate reaction was to veto that proposal, but then I realized it is for the Board to decide, not for the Council.

  737. SamWhited

    I think (keeping in mind that I've only been to a handful of summits) that summits work best if you pick a specific issue and focus on that

  738. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: I could pick out Message Routing and fill a 30~60min slot with that probably.

  739. SamWhited

    That does seem like a big one

  740. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: it's also the most important one, IMO

  741. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: after that is tackled, a new client session type or some kind of MAM-sub can be applied to solve the remaining minor practical problems ;)

  742. Ge0rG

    I also actually wanted to create that message routing rules table for a long time now.

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