(Somehow council elections were more prominent to me.)
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daniel
dwd, Kev: yes I'm pretty mich available all day. So 1630Z or what ever you suggested works for me
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Kev
Fab, ta.
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Ge0rG
I'm very hopeful regarding 1630Z as well. Might be a bit unresponsive while entering a train, but not absolutely unavailable.
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Ge0rG
I've added the Minutes link to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2017 and now I hope I'm not breaking the page-copy-paste process for next year's election.
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Guus
Who's formally going to apply the tie-breaking process for the remaining Board position? The secretary? Old Board? New Board?
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Alex
Guus: was quickly reading RFC 3797 last night, but havent really understood how this algo works, needs more reading ;-)
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Ge0rG
Alex: TL;DR: we need a pool of candidates (check) and an algorithm that will be applied on a future random-generating event (e.g. state lottery numbers)
dwd
Alex, Pick something happening soonish (like, say, Euromillions draw). Define how we get from that to an answer. We could just hash a string of the lottery result as 2-digit decimal ASCII numbers in ascending order. Then pull the least significant bit. Odd is Nÿco, even is Arc.
Ge0rG
dwd: should the ASCII string be terminated by a newline?
dwd
Ge0rG, I don't think it makes any (predictable) difference to the outcome, so we may as well for simplicity. I'd pick a strong hash algorithm just so we can claim that anyone fixing the Euromillions draw purely to pick one or other wouldn't know what to fix it to.
dwd
Although if they can fix the draw, please let me know so I can buy a ticket for once.
Guus
the RFC talks about combining various sources (eg: Euromillioins and the value of some stock exchange by the closing on a particular date in the future)
Ge0rG
dwd: let's just add a foot note that in case an XSF member wins a significant amount of money, we need to declare the result as void and choose another state-run lottery.
jonasw
dwd, :D
dwd
Guus, Yes, but that's to increase the entropy required, which is given in a formula - we only need a single bit as I understand things.
Guus
dwd, agreed. And as our pool size is fixed to '2', a simple odd/even determinator will work.
Guus
I'm primarily interested in making sure that someone is actively persuing a resolution at this point though :)
Ge0rG
RFC3739 §4 provides a string normalization algorithm.
Alex
I am not a gambler on only familiar with the german lottery, every weekend they pick 7 numbers out of a pool from 1 - 47 if I remember correctly
jonasw
i thought 6?
jonasw
ah, maybe seven, but the seventh has special meaning or something
Alex
jonasw: jonasw no idea, could be also 6 ;-)
Guus
we could use the least significant number in a stock exchange course?
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Guus
Alex, not to add to the workload, but perhaps you should put up memberbot for the membership application q4?
Guus
submission deadline was yesterday
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Alex
Guus: yes, will be available later toda
Guus
tx
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Alex
memberbot is up for the next voting period ;-)
Ge0rG
Looks like we have some Non-Reappliers?
mathieui
thanks Alex
Alex
Ge0rG: yes
Alex
I usually push them and remind several times by Email
Ge0rG
Right, the point of no return has been reached. There will be a Q5.
Alex
(Y)
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dwd
I've scribbled a suggestion for a concrete RFC 3739 implementation for us on the members@ list. It's dated for Friday, which seemed like a reasonable timeline. If there's something concretely wrong, please point it out. If you're happy with it, please say so. And please don't turn this into a bike shed.
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lovetox
why not just take the last number of the euro million draw, and say if its 1-6 candidate 1 wins, 7-12 candidate 2
lovetox
i dont get why there is hashing needed
Alex
dwd: you take the last byte E0 in your example, or just the last char 0?
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Alex
or do we just go from ricght to left until we find a "0" or "1" char?
dwd
Alex, Bit - 0 ends in a 0 bit. But loosely, odd numbers Nicolas, even numbers Arc.
dwd
lovetox, Makes it closer to RFC 3797, basically. It's certainly the most over-engineered coin-toss one could possibly wish for, I know.
dwd
Alex, So last characters 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, A, C, E would end in a 0-bit. The rest in a 1-bit.
was confused because you mentioned modulo in your email
dwd
Alex, Yeah... If you treat the hash as an enormous integer and modulo by the size of the list, it's the same thing. Just expressed in terms of the size of the list - which we know to be 2, so it's simple.
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lovetox
its true that you cant predict what the result on friday may be, but did you make sure both candidates have equal chance of winning?
lovetox
these are two different matters
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Alex
dwd: ya, next time when we habe a tie with 3 or more ;-)
Guus
Thanks Dave
Guus
looks fine
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dwd
It'd be good to get agreement from arc and nyco, mind.
dwd
lovetox, We assume that the lottery is completely random across its range, and that the hash output has a uniform distribution of bits. I believe the first is a reasonable assumption, and I believe that disproving the second would lead to a sudden move to SHA-3.
Zash
As long as it is independently verifiable
Zash
So, link to this lottery ?
dwd
Zash, In my email - but also https://www.euro-millions.com/results
Zash
And a clear description of the algorithm so anyone an run it
dwd
Zash, Also in my email.
Zash
"That is covered in my email" ?
dwd
Zash, https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2017-November/008696.html <-- That email.
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ralphm
Thanks for picking this up dwd
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dwd
ralphm, No prob. I felt it'd be better coming from someone off Board anyway. And I dimly recall being partially responsible for the RFC 3797 rule anyway after last time. (Which, as I recall, also involved Nyco - though I genuinely can't remember).
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dwd
ralphm, Ah, no, I recall slightly wrong - the tie was between David Banes and Michael Rémond, but Nÿco was the "fourth" member, and we voted to drop the Board to the top 3, not 4, in order to maintain an odd number - which lost Nÿco. https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2009-October/005230.html
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Ge0rG
dwd: you forgot to explicitly specify the ordering of the lottery results.
dwd
Ge0rG, Isn't this enough? "2) Each number will be arranged in ascending order, separated by dots,
and terminated by "./".
"
Ge0rG
dwd: oops, my bad, sorry!
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dwd
Ge0rG, Don't worry. I'd rather people pointed things out and were wrong than an error wasn't spotted until too late.
Ge0rG
dwd: still, reading the mail on my smartphone in a moving tram and immediately accusing you of negligence was impolite at best.
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Ge0rG
So my appointment ended early, which means I have the time for the council meeting. Now I just need to hope for good network coverage...
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dwd
Ge0rG, We're aiming for 16:30 UTC, so 17:30 CET I believe. So you've more than an hour to find a café with WiFi.
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dwd
Ge0rG, Also, you weren't impolite, and nor did you accuse me of negligence. You reviewed something important and thought you'd spotted something, which is very welcome.
Ge0rG
dwd: I'm boarding a train in 10 minutes, and it will have bad wifi. I can't influence the network quality except by pulling the emergency brake, but that will considerably delay my arrival at home 🤔
dwd
Ge0rG, We'll have to hope we did a good job with all those mobile extensions, then. :-)
Ge0rG
dwd: the largest blocker on the first trip today was poezio's broken reconnect code and that nasty MUC self ping IQ routing problem
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dwd
Ge0rG, It'd be nice to get MIX moving again.
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zinid
it would be nice to burn it with fire ;)
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Ge0rG
Indeed, I've recently made another approach at the XEP, and I've read almost half of it. Unfortunately, I wrote my notes as messages-to-self and they weren't logged because of infrastructure problems. They are now captured in the yaxim SQLite storage of a phone with empty battery.
Steve Kille
dwd: in what way??
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Guus
Steve Kille: make it a draft standard? :)
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Kev
I think it's a little bit raw for that.
Guus
I was referring to the intended direction.
Steve Kille
We want this direction
Steve Kille
Need some implementations
Guus
sorry, my semi-funny remark wasn't helpful.
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ralphm
As for the Board meeting. I look like this right now, and using any screen terribly hard:
Damaged my cornea somehow. Should be fine in a few days
Guus
ouch. Get well soon, Ralph
Zash
ralphm: get well! and don't overwork your other eye
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ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
Arrr
ralphm
Welcome Guus especially
ralphm
Who do we have
Guus
wait, you're an hour early?
Ge0rG
Council hasn't met yet
ralphm
Ah yes
ralphm
Adjourned then
ralphm
I missed the change of time
Guus
(Also, in an hour this building is closing down, so at best, I'll join the meeting via mobile from a parking lot somehwere)
ralphmbangs gavel
Kev
May I suggest to Board that having a meeting before Board are selected is probably suboptimal, given the first order needs to be electing a Chair?
uc
, .,
uc
Oops Sorry
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ralphm
Well, hah, so first of all, there are 4 definitely elected board members and they can meet as usual. Second, I thought it would be important to affirm Dave's suggestion to resolve the tie.
ralphm
There is no strict rule for the first meeting to elect its chair.
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Kev
There isn't, but it seems odd not to.
ralphm
Bylaws say one year or until elected. I agree all is weird. But the method to resolve the tie has to be affirmed in some official capacity, no?
Kev
No.
Kev
At least, I don't believe so. I think we fixed this in the bylaws last time it happened.
Guus
Kev: agreed. I think it's primarily up to Alex, rather than board.
Ge0rG
> in the case of a tie for the final remaining position, the final individual shall be chosen in accordance with the procedures defined in “RFC 3797: Publicly Verifiable Nominations Committee (NomCom) Random Selection” published by the Internet Engineering Task Force.
There is nothing about who is responsible for that process.
dwd
Kev, Yeah, the RFC 3797 mechanism is in the bylaws. The precise choices are not. The only affirmation I'd really like to see (beyond a few members giving it the nod) is for Alex (as Secretary), and Arc and Nÿco (as those affected).
ralphm
Ge0rG: in all matters unspecified, I believe the board or the executive committee can do this
moparisthebest
but is there a board until the tie is resolved? what if all the board election is a tie?
ralphm
And I agree with dwd otherwise
ralphm
There is currently a 4 person Board
Zash
This does seem like a thing done by those administrating The Meeting
dwd
moparisthebest, The former is unspecified. I think technically, we should pick the RFC 3797 process prior to the election. If the entire Board is a tie one year, the selection still operates by RFC 3797.
moparisthebest
yea but not if the rule is 'the board has to agree to the algorithm'
dwd
ralphm, I'm not entirely sure if there *is* a Board. There *is* a Chair, though.
dwd
moparisthebest, Good point, well made.
Zash
Clarification of the bylaws in order? :)
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dwd
Zash, Maybe. We could also declare that in the event of multiple interpretations of the rules, the Secretary's word is final.
Ge0rG
Who has the authority to determine whether a certain process is RFC3797 compliant?
Zash
dwd: Sure. And then put that into the bylaws.
moparisthebest
I think assuming lottery is random and not-riggable is fine, if you could rig it, why would you use that power to influence XSF board/council members?
Ge0rG
I think that adding the Secretary as the authority sounds reasonable, but what happens if somebody vetoes the RFC3797 compliance?
ralphm
dwd: I read 3.13 that all but the tied candidates for the last remaining position are simply elected
dwd
moparisthebest, Says exactly that in the RFC, actually. :-)
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: "<Ge0rG> dwd: let's just add a foot note that in case an XSF member wins a significant amount of money, we need to declare the result as void and choose another state-run lottery."
dwd
ralphm, I can go along with that, actually. Particularly as it talks about "Election of individuals", suggesting they're elected individually rather than as a Board entire.
moparisthebest
I'm not sure how much money would buy my board/council vote, but certainly a small % of a lottery win would do it :P
ralphm
And indeed, I'm still chair. I'm not sure if stpeter is still executive officer, though, given the one year term and his non-appointment last year.
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ralphm
(6.2)
Zash
Does the new board start directly after the election?
Kev
Zash: Yeah.
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ralphm
Actually, I am wrong. He was appointed, and indicated intent to resign
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ralphm
Ok, what now then?
Martin
*shrug*
ralphm
I suggested just just hold a quick meeting affirming dwd's method
Martin
Works for me
ralphm
And then arrange a new meeting after Friday's lottery
Ge0rG
IMHO, what dwd said is reasonable.
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Kev
I think nyco and arc agreeing to it would be optimal.
ralphm
Rights
ralphm
-s
Kev
And also that in future elections, we should probably state this method in advance :)
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ralphm
Alex are you here, too?
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Ge0rG
Kev: it might be hard to find an appropriate wording for the bylaws that doesn't open up to potential abuse.
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ralphm
Good luck cheating the lottery. If you manage that, by all means be a Board member
Kev
Ge0rG: I don't think it needs going in the bylaws - the bylaws say what to do.
intosi
^ what ralphm said.
Ge0rG
Kev: but not how to do it
intosi
Stating it in th emeeting announcement should suffice.
Kev
As far as I'm concerned, Alex simply stating that this is the mechanism is sufficient.
ralphm
I agree with Kev
ralphm
Anyway
Ge0rG
Kev: unless somebody points out that it violates RFC 3797.
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
0. Welcome and agenda
ralphm
Who's here?
Guus
I am
Guus
kind of
Martin
I'm here
Guus
in process of getting kicked out of building.
Martin
2.5 isn't really quorate
ralphm
No MattJ?
Guus
I'll respond eventually :)
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MattJ
Here
MattJ
Sorry
ralphm
Arc, nyco ?
ralphm
Ok all elected in attendance
ralphm
I have one agenda item: resolving the tie
Guus
That's up to Alex, isn't it?
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ralphm
1. Resolving the tie for 5th director
ralphm
So, there has been a suggestion by dwd to resolve this according to the bylaws
ralphm
Additionally, there's some unclarity how the foundation selects this as accepted
ralphm
I motion that the Board affirms dwd's method, having seen no objections
Martin
+1
ralphm
Of course comments of Members are welcome
Guus
Although I'm perfectly fine with the suggested method, it's purpose is to safeguard Alex from accusations of bias. Its for him to agree on, I believe.
Ge0rG
I consider dwd's proposal very reasonable, especially the part about approval by the two affected nominees.
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ralphm
I'd be happy to make it conditional on that
intosi
Sounds good to me with that condition.
Kev
I think that we actually more or less *have* to leave this to Alex to agree to.
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ralphm
Kev: can you explain why?
Kev
Because either the bylaws are ok for him to do so, in which case yay, or the bylaws need changing before we can have a new Board, and that means voting and blah.
ralphm
To be clear, we *have* a new Board IMO
Ge0rG
IMO it is compliant to RFC3739, but in case of incompliance there should be a reasonable vetoing approach. I think that having a single person who defines that it is compliant is insufficient.
ralphm
Ge0rG: this is why I thought it useful to affirm by the Board. I like the suggestion of having the candidates needing to agree, and of course Alex will need to execute (and agree).
ralphm
I was hoping all involved to be here
Guus
Well, everyone appears to agree with Dave's method
Ge0rG
ralphm: right. What Kev said almost read to me like only Alex needs to affirm the method.
Guus
So perhaps Alex can just execute, assuming he agrees to the method too, and we don't have to worry about bother potential scenarios.
ralphm
Agreed
intosi
Kev might be right that his affirmation is all that is required. However, that does not mean that board and member affirming that's the way to go isn't a good thing.
intosi
Especially if it's affirmed by all parties directly involved.
arc
I'm fine with this
Ge0rG
intosi: I think this boils down to who is allowed to veto
ralphm
nyco?
Guus
I don't think we can sensibly do more now, with all other parties absent.
dwd
Ge0rG, Push comes to shove, the members can remove the whole of the Board and redo the election.
intosi
^ I tried to say what dwd said, but didn't manage to find words even closely as eloquent.
ralphm
I think Board can also appoint the vacancy, so that's why I think it is sufficient for the Board to agree.
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Guus
ralphm: that'd be weird. We could fill the vacancy to force a vote in a particular direction that way.
dwd
ralphm, No, not also. We need to complete this first. I'm not even sure if, technically, either of Arc or Nyco can withdraw.
ralphm
(4.7)
ralphm
I'm happy to debate this all day, but I think we have enough to go on
Guus
Let's put this on hold until Alex responds.
Alex
I agree on Daves suggestion and I am happy to execute on it
arc
Honestly I think way more thought is being put into this than is needed. Let's see what the Friday lottery results in and move forward
Guus
Good.
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Alex
Dave said the next draw in Friday, so we should have the 5th borad member by the end of this week using the random election method
ralphm
Ok. If nyco does not object before the lottery executes, this is what we do.
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ralphm
dwd: can you write minutes?
ralphm
2. Date of Next
ralphm
tbd on list
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Guus
What list?
dwd
ralphm, Yes, I'll knock something brief out.
ralphm
3. Close
ralphm
Guus: board list
Guus
I'm not on board list yet, I believe.
dwd
Guus, board@, one assumes.
ralphm
Kev can add you
ralphm
Thanks all!
Guus
Thanks
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
Arrrr
Martin
Cheerio all
intosi
Roaring Ralph.
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ralphm
(for those who missed it, scroll up for my picture)
Kev
Get well, Ralph.
Guus
Kev: mind adding me to board list?
dwd
ralphm, You know an eyepatch is meant to be black, right?
ralphm
Best they had
Guus
dwd: I'm missing a parrot.
ralphm
Also pretty sure most pirates had a white one first
Guus
Ok, I'm off. Car / parking lot / cold.
Kev
Mail me so I've got the mail address in my inbox.
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Guus
Kev: my Gmail please
Guus
See my application
ralphm
Oh, also congrats on council and dwd as chair
ralphm
(of council)
dwd
ralphm, Ta!
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Ge0rG
I think a single talk slot won't suffice any more at the upcoming Summit. Too many problems in https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
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mathieui
oh, you updated it
mathieui
maybe we need to have the summit last one more day and give one full day to Ge0rG
Ge0rG
mathieui: my immediate reaction was to veto that proposal, but then I realized it is for the Board to decide, not for the Council.
SamWhited
I think (keeping in mind that I've only been to a handful of summits) that summits work best if you pick a specific issue and focus on that
Ge0rG
SamWhited: I could pick out Message Routing and fill a 30~60min slot with that probably.
SamWhited
That does seem like a big one
Ge0rG
SamWhited: it's also the most important one, IMO
Ge0rG
SamWhited: after that is tackled, a new client session type or some kind of MAM-sub can be applied to solve the remaining minor practical problems ;)
Ge0rG
I also actually wanted to create that message routing rules table for a long time now.