XSF Discussion - 2017-11-23

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  155. Guus

    > I will execute the random selection then on the next Euro Millions draw which is this Friday, November 24th 2017.

  156. Guus

    longest drumroll ever?

  157. Alex


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  159. dwd

    Guus, If I thought we'd have got there in time, I'd have suggested the UK lottery draw last night.

  160. Ge0rG

    that would've been very close.

  161. Ge0rG

    BTW, sorting people by their name is an inherently unfair process.

  162. Guus

    dwd: oh, the timing doesn't matter much. I'm just glad we were able to come up with a way to resolve this in the first place.

  163. mathieui

    Ge0rG, maybe hash the name + the date and then sort the hashes?

  164. Guus

    Why are we grouping people by name?

  165. Ge0rG

    2648f46ed83b89a922e3a74aa5500dee: that's an awesome idea.

  166. dwd

    Ge0rG, I don't think it makes any difference how people are ordered, the point is that the order must be decided upon and fixed in advance.

  167. Ge0rG

    dwd: you are absolutely right, in the context of the tie resolution

  168. Guus

    we're basically ordering them in a circle, not in a prioritized queue.

  169. Ge0rG

    my remark was rather related to the typical ordering of studens in a class, when the teacher decides whom to ask for homework

  170. dwd

    Ge0rG, For voting, the memberbot randomizes the order each time you vote, as well. We've run into that one before, as you can tell...

  171. Ge0rG

    dwd: right. It confused me the first time I mistyped my vote and had to recast, but it's logical.

  172. Ge0rG

    dwd: I'm also pretty sure I read about it on the ML

  173. Guus

    Ge0rG: my best friends mum used this for job application. Uses her maiden name normally, but used her husbands family name "Aa" to put herself quite literally on the top of the stack :)

  174. Ge0rG

    Guus: was the name really "Aa"?

  175. Ge0rG

    that's like all the "1-2-3 plumbing" and "aaa services" in the yellow pages.

  176. dwd

    Guus, 'My surname? Yes, it's "a". Lowercase.'

  177. Guus

    the family name uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussenvoegsel, but otherwise, yes, Aa (and in the Netherlands, we don't use tussenvoegsels for ordering names).

  178. Guus

    dwd: just for kicks, we once looked up to see if his family really was amongst the first in the phonebook. Turns out that there really are people with "A" for a surname.

  179. Guus

    naturally, I've declared my friend a loser and moved on.

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  182. Ge0rG

    Tussenvoegsel is a very interesting word.

  183. Guus

    Yeah, filling out (some) Dutch names in international forms is fun.

  184. Ge0rG

    it's also fun to be called Georg Lukas. People make witty remarks about lightsabres, darthvaders etc. all the time

  185. Guus

    I'm always annoyed when things like address book applications list my family ("der Kinderen") under "d" instead of "k"

  186. Guus

    Yeah, double wammy with your last name also being a common first name.

  187. dwd

    Guus, So I now learn that you are meneer Der Kinderen but Guus der Kinderen. And you're collated under "K" in Dutch, but "D" in Belgian.

  188. Guus

    dwd, that's correct.

  189. Ge0rG

    Guus: yeah, that too. "What's your name?" -- "Lukas" -- "So what's your last name?"

  190. Alex

    we can formalize the tie resolution process in a XEP or other document, to have it in file when it happens again, also ties which involve more than 2 applicants

  191. Guus

    Alex: we can, but do we need to put in the effort? It worked out pretty well this time, without the added documentation.

  192. Alex

    Guus: agreed

  193. dwd

    Alex, Ideally, we'd publish the algorithm in the run-up to an election, so we could crank it through quickly.

  194. dwd

    Alex, But in fairness, it's happened twice in XSF history, so maybe Guus has a better idea.

  195. Guus

    not sure if "not doing anything else" qualifies as an "idea"

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  342. mathieui

    I like how the hash discussion for 0392 oscillates between "not too old stuff, it will get deprecated and removed" and "not too recent stuff, it won’t be available in java"

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  345. Zash

    For a use case where md5 would be fine

  346. mathieui


  347. Zash

    Or like crc32

  348. dwd

    I think it's reliant on low collision, so MD5 is probably the right level.

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  350. mathieui

    the worry is more that md5 is deprecated in many places, and may be removed somewhen

  351. dwd

    Predictable collision is fine. Even a second preimage attack wouldn't be a problem.

  352. dwd

    mathieui, Doubtful. MD5 is used in a lot more places than just crypto. But if people are worried, SHA-1 will be with us forever, basically.

  353. mathieui


  354. dwd

    Although I like the fact is says "SHA-1 ... as defined by zlib".

  355. Zash

    dwd: Will it?

  356. Zash

    git was mentioned on the mailing list, but I think both git and hg are looking at phasing it out

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  361. Flow

    Zash, git is looking into phasing out sha1, hg is looking into phasing out itself ;-)

  362. Zash

    2/10 would not be trolled again

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  364. vanitasvitae

    Just read the ejabberd release post. That made me thinking, is there a link type "share via xmpp", which clients can open and which carries a predefined body, so the user only has to select a recipient?

  365. MattJ

    vanitasvitae, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0147.html#actions-message

  366. MattJ

    I think the "select a recipient" part is trickier though

  367. Zash

    Has Firefox killed that social plugin architecture they had?

  368. Zash

    Wherein you had installed some pice of JS that would handle "share this" events.

  369. MattJ

    you could do that in Javascript (sorry Zash)

  370. waqas

    Unfortunately I doubt it

  371. Zash

    MattJ: This was 100% pure JS only plugins

  372. Zash

    You could have a sidebar and share options.

  373. Link Mauve

    Hmm, XEP-0277 doesn’t say anything about a sharing URI, the closest is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html#location

  374. vanitasvitae

    Yeah, looks like thr recipient is always fix.

  375. MattJ

    Ha, just read the ejabberd release post. They stole our certificate configuration approach ;)

  376. Zash


  377. Zash

    MattJ: The one we talked about but haven't gotten around to implement yet?

  378. MattJ

    "Introductin certfiles option": "The option is supposed to replace existing options ‘c2s_certfile’, ‘s2s_certfile’ and ‘domain_certfile’. The option accepts a list of file paths (optionally with wildcards “*”) containing either PEM certificates or PEM private keys. At startup, ejabberd sorts the certificates, finds matching private keys and rebuilds full certificates chains which can be used by fast_tls driver."

  379. MattJ

    ignore my typo

  380. Zash

    We just pick something based on file names

  381. Zash


  382. dwd

    Zash, It's in hardware on a load of Intel CPUs, and in use in a zillion places as a general hash. It's not very good at it, actually, but it's there.

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  386. Zash

    Wait, {xep 313} says WHAT?

  387. Bunneh

    Zash: Message Archive Management (Standards Track, Proposed, 2017-02-22) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html

  388. Flow

    doesn't look like xep277 registers 'node' the querytype, it's even missing in xep277 § 11. Or am I missing something?

  389. Flow

    arg, node even clashes with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0050.html#registrar-querytypes

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  392. Link Mauve

    Flow, hmm, it should be at the ?pubsub query type: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#registrar-querytypes

  393. Link Mauve

    That’s where it’s registered.

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  425. Flow

    Link Mauve, then there is a '?pubsub' missing in xep277 § 2.1?

  426. Link Mauve

    Seems so.

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  429. Flow

    Link Mauve, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/545

  430. Link Mauve

    edhelas, goffi, ^

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  438. goffi

    Flow: this would be a bad idea: 1) the URI is without "pubsub" action in XEP-0060 (the URI is not specific to microblog) 2) we have already tons of URI in the wild without the "pubsub" action 3) the "node" variable is enough to know that it's a pubsub URI (but even if it's not used for something else, it could be, so that's not great I agree)

  439. goffi

    and if we were adding and action, I would prefer to have "blog" or "microblog" instead of "pubsub", this would avoid retrieving items to know what's the node is about.

  440. goffi

    an action*

  441. goffi


  442. goffi

    (final standard)

  443. goffi

    oups draft sorry

  444. jonasw

    Zash, crc32 doesn’t work

  445. goffi

    "node" is used actually, I've missed the comment abose. That's unfortunate, XEP-0060 should have used an action but it didn't. Anyway command use an action, so we can still differenciate.

  446. jonasw

    you need a few hundred bytes of random input before crc32 starts to work as a proper mixing function

  447. jonasw

    (tried that)

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  449. jonasw

    at which point it seemed to me that SHA-1 is a more sensible alternative, than something home-brew based on a crc32 variant

  450. jonasw

    dwd, yes, the incorrect reference to zlib will be going away soon, when I can comfortably type again

  451. Zash

    Crypto hashes does come with all that random pre-input data, so sure.

  452. jonasw


  453. jonasw

    so crc32 isn’t quite sufficient by itself

  454. jonasw

    md5 would probably be fine, too

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  466. Neustradamus

    Good to see discussions/changes on XEP-0277!

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  472. Flow

    goffi, ahh that thing can come without an action. i've changed the PR https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/545

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  490. MattJ

    Grr, MIX

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  493. Zash


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  496. MattJ

    I kinda assumed it didn't use type=groupchat

  497. waqas


  498. Zash

    I kinda assumed it would

  499. MattJ

    The semantics are so different, isn't a MIX joined from your bare JID?

  500. MattJ

    Why would you want groupchat routing rules on that?

  501. Zash

    MattJ: They don't matter because the server needs to be MIX-aware

  502. Zash

    I assume

  503. MattJ

    I confess I'm way behind on MIX

  504. MattJ

    All I'm saying is, I was surprised by this

  505. Zash

    I'll be basing all my MIX-related statements of what I overheard while people were gathered around a whiteboard drawing it up a few years ago

  506. Zash

    While intoshi, ralphm and I were cutting up XEP 60 into pieces

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