XSF Discussion - 2017-11-23

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  155. Guus > I will execute the random selection then on the next Euro Millions draw which is this Friday, November 24th 2017.
  156. Guus longest drumroll ever?
  157. Alex ;-)
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  159. dwd Guus, If I thought we'd have got there in time, I'd have suggested the UK lottery draw last night.
  160. Ge0rG that would've been very close.
  161. Ge0rG BTW, sorting people by their name is an inherently unfair process.
  162. Guus dwd: oh, the timing doesn't matter much. I'm just glad we were able to come up with a way to resolve this in the first place.
  163. mathieui Ge0rG, maybe hash the name + the date and then sort the hashes?
  164. Guus Why are we grouping people by name?
  165. Ge0rG 2648f46ed83b89a922e3a74aa5500dee: that's an awesome idea.
  166. dwd Ge0rG, I don't think it makes any difference how people are ordered, the point is that the order must be decided upon and fixed in advance.
  167. Ge0rG dwd: you are absolutely right, in the context of the tie resolution
  168. Guus we're basically ordering them in a circle, not in a prioritized queue.
  169. Ge0rG my remark was rather related to the typical ordering of studens in a class, when the teacher decides whom to ask for homework
  170. dwd Ge0rG, For voting, the memberbot randomizes the order each time you vote, as well. We've run into that one before, as you can tell...
  171. Ge0rG dwd: right. It confused me the first time I mistyped my vote and had to recast, but it's logical.
  172. Ge0rG dwd: I'm also pretty sure I read about it on the ML
  173. Guus Ge0rG: my best friends mum used this for job application. Uses her maiden name normally, but used her husbands family name "Aa" to put herself quite literally on the top of the stack :)
  174. Ge0rG Guus: was the name really "Aa"?
  175. Ge0rG that's like all the "1-2-3 plumbing" and "aaa services" in the yellow pages.
  176. dwd Guus, 'My surname? Yes, it's "a". Lowercase.'
  177. Guus the family name uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussenvoegsel, but otherwise, yes, Aa (and in the Netherlands, we don't use tussenvoegsels for ordering names).
  178. Guus dwd: just for kicks, we once looked up to see if his family really was amongst the first in the phonebook. Turns out that there really are people with "A" for a surname.
  179. Guus naturally, I've declared my friend a loser and moved on.
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  182. Ge0rG Tussenvoegsel is a very interesting word.
  183. Guus Yeah, filling out (some) Dutch names in international forms is fun.
  184. Ge0rG it's also fun to be called Georg Lukas. People make witty remarks about lightsabres, darthvaders etc. all the time
  185. Guus I'm always annoyed when things like address book applications list my family ("der Kinderen") under "d" instead of "k"
  186. Guus Yeah, double wammy with your last name also being a common first name.
  187. dwd Guus, So I now learn that you are meneer Der Kinderen but Guus der Kinderen. And you're collated under "K" in Dutch, but "D" in Belgian.
  188. Guus dwd, that's correct.
  189. Ge0rG Guus: yeah, that too. "What's your name?" -- "Lukas" -- "So what's your last name?"
  190. Alex we can formalize the tie resolution process in a XEP or other document, to have it in file when it happens again, also ties which involve more than 2 applicants
  191. Guus Alex: we can, but do we need to put in the effort? It worked out pretty well this time, without the added documentation.
  192. Alex Guus: agreed
  193. dwd Alex, Ideally, we'd publish the algorithm in the run-up to an election, so we could crank it through quickly.
  194. dwd Alex, But in fairness, it's happened twice in XSF history, so maybe Guus has a better idea.
  195. Guus not sure if "not doing anything else" qualifies as an "idea"
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  342. mathieui I like how the hash discussion for 0392 oscillates between "not too old stuff, it will get deprecated and removed" and "not too recent stuff, it won’t be available in java"
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  345. Zash For a use case where md5 would be fine
  346. mathieui indeed
  347. Zash Or like crc32
  348. dwd I think it's reliant on low collision, so MD5 is probably the right level.
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  350. mathieui the worry is more that md5 is deprecated in many places, and may be removed somewhen
  351. dwd Predictable collision is fine. Even a second preimage attack wouldn't be a problem.
  352. dwd mathieui, Doubtful. MD5 is used in a lot more places than just crypto. But if people are worried, SHA-1 will be with us forever, basically.
  353. mathieui yeah
  354. dwd Although I like the fact is says "SHA-1 ... as defined by zlib".
  355. Zash dwd: Will it?
  356. Zash git was mentioned on the mailing list, but I think both git and hg are looking at phasing it out
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  361. Flow Zash, git is looking into phasing out sha1, hg is looking into phasing out itself ;-)
  362. Zash 2/10 would not be trolled again
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  364. vanitasvitae Just read the ejabberd release post. That made me thinking, is there a link type "share via xmpp", which clients can open and which carries a predefined body, so the user only has to select a recipient?
  365. MattJ vanitasvitae, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0147.html#actions-message
  366. MattJ I think the "select a recipient" part is trickier though
  367. Zash Has Firefox killed that social plugin architecture they had?
  368. Zash Wherein you had installed some pice of JS that would handle "share this" events.
  369. MattJ you could do that in Javascript (sorry Zash)
  370. waqas Unfortunately I doubt it
  371. Zash MattJ: This was 100% pure JS only plugins
  372. Zash You could have a sidebar and share options.
  373. Link Mauve Hmm, XEP-0277 doesn’t say anything about a sharing URI, the closest is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html#location
  374. vanitasvitae Yeah, looks like thr recipient is always fix.
  375. MattJ Ha, just read the ejabberd release post. They stole our certificate configuration approach ;)
  376. Zash Huh?
  377. Zash MattJ: The one we talked about but haven't gotten around to implement yet?
  378. MattJ "Introductin certfiles option": "The option is supposed to replace existing options ‘c2s_certfile’, ‘s2s_certfile’ and ‘domain_certfile’. The option accepts a list of file paths (optionally with wildcards “*”) containing either PEM certificates or PEM private keys. At startup, ejabberd sorts the certificates, finds matching private keys and rebuilds full certificates chains which can be used by fast_tls driver."
  379. MattJ ignore my typo
  380. Zash We just pick something based on file names
  381. Zash "just"
  382. dwd Zash, It's in hardware on a load of Intel CPUs, and in use in a zillion places as a general hash. It's not very good at it, actually, but it's there.
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  386. Zash Wait, {xep 313} says WHAT?
  387. Bunneh Zash: Message Archive Management (Standards Track, Proposed, 2017-02-22) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html
  388. Flow doesn't look like xep277 registers 'node' the querytype, it's even missing in xep277 § 11. Or am I missing something?
  389. Flow arg, node even clashes with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0050.html#registrar-querytypes
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  392. Link Mauve Flow, hmm, it should be at the ?pubsub query type: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#registrar-querytypes
  393. Link Mauve That’s where it’s registered.
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  425. Flow Link Mauve, then there is a '?pubsub' missing in xep277 § 2.1?
  426. Link Mauve Seems so.
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  429. Flow Link Mauve, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/545
  430. Link Mauve edhelas, goffi, ^
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  438. goffi Flow: this would be a bad idea: 1) the URI is without "pubsub" action in XEP-0060 (the URI is not specific to microblog) 2) we have already tons of URI in the wild without the "pubsub" action 3) the "node" variable is enough to know that it's a pubsub URI (but even if it's not used for something else, it could be, so that's not great I agree)
  439. goffi and if we were adding and action, I would prefer to have "blog" or "microblog" instead of "pubsub", this would avoid retrieving items to know what's the node is about.
  440. goffi an action*
  441. goffi https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#impl-uri
  442. goffi (final standard)
  443. goffi oups draft sorry
  444. jonasw Zash, crc32 doesn’t work
  445. goffi "node" is used actually, I've missed the comment abose. That's unfortunate, XEP-0060 should have used an action but it didn't. Anyway command use an action, so we can still differenciate.
  446. jonasw you need a few hundred bytes of random input before crc32 starts to work as a proper mixing function
  447. jonasw (tried that)
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  449. jonasw at which point it seemed to me that SHA-1 is a more sensible alternative, than something home-brew based on a crc32 variant
  450. jonasw dwd, yes, the incorrect reference to zlib will be going away soon, when I can comfortably type again
  451. Zash Crypto hashes does come with all that random pre-input data, so sure.
  452. jonasw exactly
  453. jonasw so crc32 isn’t quite sufficient by itself
  454. jonasw md5 would probably be fine, too
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  466. Neustradamus Good to see discussions/changes on XEP-0277!
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  472. Flow goffi, ahh that thing can come without an action. i've changed the PR https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/545
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  490. MattJ Grr, MIX
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  493. Zash Grrr?
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  496. MattJ I kinda assumed it didn't use type=groupchat
  497. waqas Yeah
  498. Zash I kinda assumed it would
  499. MattJ The semantics are so different, isn't a MIX joined from your bare JID?
  500. MattJ Why would you want groupchat routing rules on that?
  501. Zash MattJ: They don't matter because the server needs to be MIX-aware
  502. Zash I assume
  503. MattJ I confess I'm way behind on MIX
  504. MattJ All I'm saying is, I was surprised by this
  505. Zash I'll be basing all my MIX-related statements of what I overheard while people were gathered around a whiteboard drawing it up a few years ago
  506. Zash While intoshi, ralphm and I were cutting up XEP 60 into pieces
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