Link MauveGe0rG, and everyone else, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=Easy_Group_Chats&curid=12&diff=9796&oldid=18
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zinidMattJ: nobody has stolen your approach, you don't have it implemented
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jonaswLink Mauve, +1
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jonaswI still have no good idea how to glue all the layers together in my client to actaully be able to implement that chain of fallbacks :/
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zinidmy thoughts exactly when I try to implement new cool xmpp things: calling hooks in unexpected places is annoying
zinidfor example, dealing with messages forks and carbons is a nightmare
jonaswzinid, you should involve yourself in the Message Routing 2.0 discussion, if you aren’t already
jonaswthings might in fact get simpler
jonaswI always wonder whether this perceived complexity is from my inexperience with 1Mloc+ projects or if this is specific to the IM domain or if this is specific to the XMPP domain
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zinidI think that's because of paradigms change
jonaswyou mean existing code having hardship with adapting to the new situations?
zinidwe used to have simple chatting where you don't need to *synchronize*
zinidno, I mean IM paradigm
zinidnow we face the problem which is in fact data *synchronization*
zinidtake a look at mam and carbons
zinidthose are clearly replica transfers
jonaswsure
zinidso I would suggest to implement this replica layer first
zinidbut I have no idea how to make the transition :/
zinidI also think XML is not the best way to exchange replicas, lol
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zinidanyway, we can invent new and shiny IM 2.0, but how to make the transition?
zinidthat's why I virtually don't discuss the topic
zinidI have no ideas
jonaswzinid, there have been very concrete proposals
zinidjonasw: I didn't find the solution with ancient servers
zinidI mean I didn't see such proposal
jonasw(using Bind 2.0 as a signal for "use IM 2.0 rules" and some s2s protocol to make serves negotiate that between them, PLUS and here’s where your ancient servers come into play, fallback to the existing Hints for Carbons and MAM by writing them explicitly into the messages when transferring to IM 1.0 domains)
zinidfuck yeah, much easier :D
jonaswmuch easier than what?
zinid[10:26:12] <jonasw> things might in fact get simpler
zinidwhat did you mean here? :)
zinidI see only more complexity, it looks for me new servers need to maintain old and new behaviour
jonaswzinid, inside the IM 2.0 domain, you’d see much simpler rules for archiving and carbons than what we currently have
zinidprobably, but those rules still suck in the sense of replica synchronization
jonaswdo they?
zinidfor example eventual consistency is not guaranteed at all
zinidit doesn't solve a problem with server outage for significant time
jonaswand also, the current discussion is mostly about different clients on the same account
jonaswdo you think it should be extended to different accounts?
zinidtypically the message is buffered for 5 minutes
jonaswon server outage with significant time I’d expect message loss, it’s as simple as that
zinidyes, I know what about the current discussion ;)
jonaswthe sender would get an error back, it’s a rather clear situation?
zinidjonasw: well, I have quite some experiences in database design and I would say consistency should be guaranteed even with huge outage
zinidjonasw: yes, it will receive error back, then what? the recipient loses the message forever
jonaswit is clear to the sender that the recipient has never seen the message
jonaswor that the message was never even sent
zinidyeah, that's not how eventual consistency works ;)
jonaswI find it consistent.
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jonaswboth nodes end up to "know" the "message was not sent" state
zinidyou face inconsistent state and you need to resolve it *eventually*
jonasw(the sender explicitly by seeing the error, the recipient implicitly by not seeing the message)
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zinidno, recipient node might know jack shit
ziniddue to unexpected failures
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zinidthis is acceptable in p2p computing for example
zinidand is tolerated
zinidbut not in xmpp ;)
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ziniddistributed databases even have anti-entropy technics to deal with rotten bits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_rot), but let's say we don't need this in xmpp (at least so far)
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zinidI find matrix approach very decent in this regard, however their use of http polling and json is annoying
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HolgerExactly.
zinidyeah, the idea is great, implementation is shit
zinidI still think servers should not replicate, it should be done peer-to-peer
zinidservers could maintain replicas, but this is not required
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HolgerThe replicas are just caches in Matrix I think. At least I don't see why servers couldn't just ditch and later re-fetch them.
zinidprobably, I don't know all the details
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zinidbut look, this is much easier to fetch replicas p2p: when you become available you ask for replicas of your contacts (possessing the last seen message id)
zinidyou don't even need stream management queues for this
jonaswexcept that you wouldn’t want your phone to drain its battery on syncing other peoples messages
zinidjonasw: yes, so replication servers are needed, so they can reply to such replica requests by themselves (without client involvement)
jonaswat which point you’re ditching the p2p approach and we’re kind-of back to "ask for MAM on your server"
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zinidno, I can disable this feature on my server
zinidbut this can be implemented via MAM, yes
zinidwe already have this for groupchats
zinidwhy contacts are different?
jonaswsee above?
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zinidwhat exactly do you mean? MAM should be considered as just another replica or cache
jonaswI mean the power consumption issue.
zinidof course there can be tons of replicas, so?
zinidwhat issue if you ask your server to maintain replicas?
jonaswI don’t see how that would work, discovery and security-wise.
jonaswI don’t have any issue with that, it is simply MAM
zinidI don't find it less secure than current approach
jonaswanyways, gotta go, I already typed too much today (hand injury) :(
zinidjonasw: this is kinda "enchanced" mam :)
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Link Mauve“07:54:06 jonasw> on server outage with significant time I’d expect message loss, it’s as simple as that”, people coming from email would be sad to hear that, it’s been a solved problem for a long time there.
jonaswLink Mauve, when you have a long outage, emails will bounce just like IM messages do
jonaswthe term "long" is relative and may be different for IM and Email
ZashIt's *Instant* Messaging after all
zinidZash: nah, it's data replication now, that's the problem
ZashYeah :(
zinidand we're trying to solve this replication problem via IM
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Link MauveHence the huge whiteboard I’ve been promised for years. :(
jonaswFOSDEM?
ZashYes! Brussels 2018 - The Whiteboardening
jonaswsounds like I really need to sort that out
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Link MauveLet’s use Markdown! https://statuscode.ch/2017/11/from-markdown-to-rce-in-atom/
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jonaswah, they failed to sanitize HTML :)
jonaswthe HTML support in the markdown component is left enabled intentionally
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zinidhtml inside markdown looks like a really insane idea ;)
jonaswzinid, markdown is specified as an HTML superset, IIRC
Zashmarkdown is defined as a html superset
Zashtoo slow
zinidwat?
zinida html superset?
jonaswyup
zinidwhat does that mean?
jonaswevery valid HTML document is a valid markdown document
zinidoh shi~
jonasw(even though I’m not sure that’s actually true, there are probably some corner casesr✎
jonasw(even though I’m not sure that’s actually true, there are probably some corner cases) ✏
jonaswbut it’s intended to be that way
zinidactually, every text is a valid markdown document, no?
jonaswyes
zinidso markdown is a text superset, okay
jonaswbut the semantics of a valid html document interpreted as markdown are the same of the html docmuent interpreted as html
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zinidnevertheless, the article is interesting
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jonaswI wonder what those german guys asking about XEP-0392 are about.
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danieljonasw, what do you mean? that's the jsxc developer
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danielthe client that is mostly known for its integration into nextcloud
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jonaswdaniel, and the other three?
jonasw*two
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danielchristian schudt is the babbler developer
jonasw(not saying that it’s a bad thing or something, I was just wondering why suddenly)
jonaswyou know people, it’s scary
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danieland klaus herberth is i believe also jsxc
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jonaswyeah, Klaus Herberth has jsxc in his mail adress, so I assumed you were talking about him when referring to "the jsxc developer"
danielI see. I was originially talking about marcel because that's the first email i saw
jonaswah ok
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danielFwiw I don't know any of these people. I just know of them. Babbler is super awesome.
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pep.jonasw, https://ppjet.bouah.net/poezio-colors.png one use case of why using the bare JID for colors is meh
pep.nick would be better in that case. These are all IRC users, going through a bridge (Gluttony)
mathieuipep., jonasw already said it on the list
pep.Ah I have to catch up
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zinidtoo many germans in jabber
mathieuisays the russian
Zashtoo many humans
zinidmathieui: russians in jabber can only write spam bots and talk shit, mostly ;)
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Flowdaniel, do you want a MAM namespace bump?
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danielFlow: no?!
Flowor, in other words, isn't a MAM namespace bump required for your proposed excluded-types?
Flowor is the service required to return an error on unknown fields? which would be good I think
danielFlow, i think the additional filter thingy is off the table anyway
danielwe just gonna adjust the rules
Flowohh :( I like the idea of additional flexible filters which are discoverable
danielFlow, custom filters are already part of the protocol
Flowand not specified in xep313
Ge0rGwhat about making MAM responses type=headline?
Ge0rGAaaand changing the default configuration to "N/A"
Flowdaniel, right, but there is currently no specification for message type filters
FlowGe0rG, I can't follow, but it's likely because it has been a long week
FlowI believe that MAM archives should be allowed to also archive groupchat messages FWIW
danielif they were specified they wouldn't be custom, no?
Ge0rGFlow: type=headline would better reflect the ephemeral status of MAM responses, and the rationale for "N/A" is in https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-November/033762.html (c)
Ge0rGFlow: why do you believe that way?
Flowdaniel, probably, but does not matter, I want a mandatory set of filter mechanism which can be extended by discoverable additional filters, so that we can experiment which filters are a good idea and which are unnecessary
danielGe0rG, am i reading this mail correctly you are planning to come to the summit?
FlowGe0rG, most for the same reasons that Kev said
Ge0rGFlow: I disagree with Kev on that.
Ge0rGdaniel: I can't promise that.
Ge0rGI really can't.
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FlowGe0rG, My vision is to give MAM services maximal freedom regarding what to archive, and clients should be given the filtering mechanisms they need
Ge0rGFlow: what about using a separate XEP for all of that?
FlowGe0rG, for the f
Flowiltering mechs?
Flow(the optinal filtering mechs)
ZashWhat gets stored should be up to server policy. What gets can be described by a XEP
Ge0rGFlow: no, for things that go beyond normal im client message archival.
Ge0rGZash: implementation defied!!!!
FlowGe0rG, wouldn't that be an MAM alternative?
Ge0rGFlow: what about using the same backend storage but not return everything to normal MAM requests?
FlowGe0rG, if you still have the possiblity to return groupchat and probably all other types of messages, then that would be fine in my book
Flowerr, to return if the client asked for it
Ge0rGFlow: the server is free to store anything it wants, as longs as it only returns what's written in MAM on a normal MAM query
danielFlow, it's not my XEP; i could live with the filtering on query proposal. (also I believe storing groupchat in the personal archive has downsides that make it not really fit for use). I believe existing implementations would ignore unknown form fields. thus introducing new ones could be done without a NS bump
danielso to answer you question no I'm not planning a NS bump. I'm not planning anything
Flowdaniel, guess my initial question was if you think that your proposal 2) would require a NS bump
FlowI'm not sure if the service ignoring unknown fields means that you can avoid a namespace bump
Ge0rGreally, let's get rid of namespace bumps altogether.
danieli generally tend to be on the rather not bump if it doesn't cause issues with existing implementations faction
FlowYeah for unexpected behavior
Ge0rGI'm sure it's possible to replace almost every ns bump with a feature.
FlowGe0rG, well then it's ok
Ge0rGbut in this specific case, I don't want to extend MAM.
danielbut existing implementations need to change anway because they a) need to start actutally storing groupchats b) add a database field for the type to make the query efficent
Ge0rGare there provisions in MAM to full-body-search for messages?
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FlowGe0rG, I don't think so
Ge0rGFlow: so what's your use case again?
FlowAnd while at it, I want to point out that K9 did for years client local searches. It took a while until they implemented server side IMAP searches
Ge0rGFlow: that's actually an argument against gc in mam
FlowNo, it's just an observation regarding the importance of a server side search feature
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danielFlow, maybe make your argument for groupchat in the user archive on the list
Ge0rGyes please
danielnot sure if the relevant people are following this discussion
danielin here
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zinidseems like the list = this room
zinidall the same people around
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danielzinid, i'm not sure people read the backlog here. i certainly don't
Ge0rGzinid: there is a formal difference.
Ge0rGzinid: Council needs to catch up on standards@
ziniddaniel: I'm reading backlog when I have nothing to do ;)
ziniddaniel: actually I rant here only when I'm bored :)
Ge0rGzinid: then it looks like you need a {boy,girl,other}friend
zinidGe0rG: nah thanks, I'm good with my wife and son
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Guuswhen is that lottery drawing?
Guuswhich was it again
Guuseuro something?
Ge0rGGuus: https://www.euro-millions.com/results
Guustx
Guusno results yet
Zash41 minutes?
Guusah, 21 CET (that's in an hour)
Ge0rGNow I wonder if somebody can hack that web page.
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zinidwhat the fuck is this?
Guuszinid, could you be more specific and less explicit please?
Guuscrap, crying kid, afk
zinidGuus: no
zinidother questions?
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GuusIt wasn't a question, it was a request: please act in a civil manner here - it makes for a better atmosphere, which helps us to achieve more.
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zinidGuus: I act as I want, stop teaching me, I really don't care how you think one should act
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Guuszinid: I'm sorry to hear that.
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zinidYeah, people have different views, deal with it 😀
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zinidReally, if you cannot tolerate words like crap or shit you're better off not using internet
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Ge0rGzinid: this place is not made for your crap and shit, but for constructive discussions in the context of XMPP. There are plenty of other places on the internet where you can behave like an a*hole and make friends that way...
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zinidGe0rG: oh, I started to think you will not chime in 😂
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Ge0rGzinid: I've got a decade worth of channel operator experience in Germany's worst IRCNet channel, I have a sixth sense for trolling time... 😜
GuusIn other news: the Euro-millions draw is in progress!
Guusanimated gifs and all!
GuusI'll give calculation a shot, but it'd be good to have someone else verify my results.
Guus(although technically, Alex will probably sign-off anyway?)
zinidGe0rG: so euro millions is a constructive discussion?
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zinid"in the context of XMPP"
Guuszinid: ah, that's were you were getting at earlier. Yes, it is, actually.
Guusthe board member vote were in a tie. The tie-breaker is a procedure that takes the outcome off this euro millions draw.
zinidI didn't get anything
zinidtie, producer, draw, wtf
zinidah, procedure
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Guus"that's where you were getting at" <-- I now understand the confusion.
zinidI'm so excited, much wow
Guusmost background is here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2017-November/008695.html
zinidnot interested, I don't care about your policy and your invented rules
zinidI'm interested in standards
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Guussuit yourself. We can definately use your help with the standards!
zinidwhoever you will elect, jabber will continue degrading, I'm 99% sure
zinidGuus: I don't write documents, too much effort, 95% of time I will spend with english-russian dictionary
zinidor russian-english, whatever ;)
GuusDon't worry, there are lots of ways you can help out with the standards that don't require writing stuff down.
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zinidthis looks like a sect
Ge0rGzinid: people are having fun with technical protocols to ensure fairness of an election. If you compare that to elections in the USA, where districts are rebuilt to optimize vote results, or your country, where the president gets elected with 115%, it's a really great process... 😝
GuusNah. We're all friends. Here, have a sip of my kool-aid.
zinidGe0rG: not sure what technical protocols you mean. like your election bot, lol?
Ge0rGGuus: that's what Jim Jones said...
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Ge0rGzinid: if you weren't so busy cursing, you'd already know
zinidyeah, if I was interested
zinidbut I don't give a shit, luckily ;)
Ge0rGzinid: you are bored anyway, give it a try
GuusResults are in! By my calcultion: 19 - 24 - 28 - 30 - 50 -> 19.24.28.30.50./ -> f2507b627edc74d540e7cb747138ed7ee8e19d4458f9db5bfd3a92b5c97a9541 -> Nÿco
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ralphmzinid: if you can't be bothered to behave like a normal person, please leave. I'm serious.
zinidralphm: who are you?
ralphmI'm the XSF Chair
zinidwow
zinidwhat if I tell no?
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ralphmI'm not sure what your thing is, but I've been getting complaints. We like this community to be inclusive and I don't appreciate our hospitality to be abused. By asking such a question, it appears that you don't care. If I'm wrong about this, please let me know.
zinidyeah, I already understood that you build only the community you like, people who you like to see, without any technical merits
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zinidso how far did this policy bring you?
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zinidxmpp is a degrading protocol which is nobody want to implement and even here about
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ralphmFeel free to leave if you think we are doomed
zinidnah, I like here
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ralphmWell, good. We welcome discussions on technical matters, in a civilized matter. It may all be funny for you to repeat how bad you think the protocol, our procedures, or the people in our community are. I don't find it acceptable. If you insist on keeping that up, I will simply remove you from the XSF maintained venues like this room.
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zinidralphm: why don't you remove yourself? I don't even know you, what did you do for xmpp? I don't remember you discussing the protocol. Why do you have power to remove developers from this room?
ralphmI'd you can't be bothered to even look that up, that's on you. This room is hosted by the XMPP Standards Foundation. I'm its Chairman. It's pretty much similar to how I would throw out a guest in my house if he starts bothering the other guests.
zinidralphm: ah, so you're a boss here
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ralphmIf you need that kind of confirmation, yes.
zinidralphm: so your task is to ban developers you don't like, boss?
ralphmzinid: yes. Bye.
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Steve Killeralphm: good job!
ralphmI had one job, I guess.
Steve Killesome things the world can do without
ralphmI can only hope he fairs better in other settings, so banning him from the world seemed excessive. For now.
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ralphmFares, even. Yay auto-correct.
GuusTo bad it came to this. Always feels like a loss to me.
GuusNot sure what the provocation was about.
SamWhitedIt doesn't take much provocation to make him try to insult you. It would be more of a loss if new people see that kind of abuse and don't get involved because he'll just call them an idiot.
ralphmI've had multiple complaints, and I'd like to think I'm a reasonable and generally nice guy. I also read back some previous discussions. Before, other people asked nicely. I did a final attempt. He keeps on trolling. Fine.
ralphmI've suggested improvements to other people before, and those people have changed their ways. I can sometimes be annoyed, but this is simply intentionally riling up people, and I don't think we need to tolerate this.
GuusOh, I didn't want to to imply you were unreasonable.
ralphmGood. You are actually close-by.
GuusClose-by?
ralphmPhysically close. As in within a few kilometers.
ralphmSorry I didn't come by last weekend. How was t-dose?
Guusralphm: uneventful, sadly.
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ralphmRight. They have never seemed to live up to their goal of being a bit like FOSDEM-in-the-fall. Too bad.
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HolgerUgh, WTF.
HolgerI don't think "what the fuck is this?" was even remotely meant to be a provocation.
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HolgerI mean I can't speak for zinid but this quite obviously reads like "what on earth is this Euro-millions thing?" to me.
HolgerAnd I'm not sure he called an individual an idiot.
ralphmIf it was just that, it would be just fine. I say things like that all the time
SamWhitedHe's called multiple people idiots and been asked to stop, though he might not have used those words this time.
HolgerAha.
GuusHolger: I only asked him to be civil, and stopped when he made clear he had no intention.
GuusI've made a point of not escalate things. Sadly, that did not work.
HolgerI see him using flippant slang. As for the substance, I see him ranting against how this community does things. I totally understand how he won't make friends that way.
GuusI'm perfectly fine with arguments and dont mind expletives at all - but I do think it's important to have civil discourse.
HolgerBut I won't agree with this as a reason for a ban.
SamWhitedHe was asked to stop multiple times by different people including Guus, me, George, and probably others and only responded with abuse. Then someone who actually has authority politely warned him and he still didn't listen, I'm not sure what else there is to do besides a ban.
SamWhitedIf he tells a new person that their spec or ideas are garbage they're not likely to come back; no community needs that kind of toxic behavior, no matter how smart the person is.
ralphmHolger: just read back the logs for a few days. He's more than welcome if he can behave like a normal person.
ralphmI'm going for some sleep now.
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GuusGoodnight
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HolgerSamWhited: Yes, different people use different tone, and asking them to change it tends to not work that well in my experience.
HolgerHow many days of backlog am I supposed to read to find the reason for the ban? I skimmed through November now. I found some purely technical comments on various details, some ranting on MIX, EXI, Twitter, Java, the XSF membership/council election process, and our priorities. I guess I overlooked something.
HolgerWhatever, this is your show, I'm not even a member. I'll shut up.