XSF Discussion - 2017-11-24

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  33. Link Mauve Ge0rG, and everyone else, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=Easy_Group_Chats&curid=12&diff=9796&oldid=18
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  55. zinid MattJ: nobody has stolen your approach, you don't have it implemented
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  70. jonasw Link Mauve, +1
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  72. jonasw I still have no good idea how to glue all the layers together in my client to actaully be able to implement that chain of fallbacks :/
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  74. zinid my thoughts exactly when I try to implement new cool xmpp things: calling hooks in unexpected places is annoying
  75. zinid for example, dealing with messages forks and carbons is a nightmare
  76. jonasw zinid, you should involve yourself in the Message Routing 2.0 discussion, if you aren’t already
  77. jonasw things might in fact get simpler
  78. jonasw I always wonder whether this perceived complexity is from my inexperience with 1Mloc+ projects or if this is specific to the IM domain or if this is specific to the XMPP domain
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  81. zinid I think that's because of paradigms change
  82. jonasw you mean existing code having hardship with adapting to the new situations?
  83. zinid we used to have simple chatting where you don't need to *synchronize*
  84. zinid no, I mean IM paradigm
  85. zinid now we face the problem which is in fact data *synchronization*
  86. zinid take a look at mam and carbons
  87. zinid those are clearly replica transfers
  88. jonasw sure
  89. zinid so I would suggest to implement this replica layer first
  90. zinid but I have no idea how to make the transition :/
  91. zinid I also think XML is not the best way to exchange replicas, lol
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  93. zinid anyway, we can invent new and shiny IM 2.0, but how to make the transition?
  94. zinid that's why I virtually don't discuss the topic
  95. zinid I have no ideas
  96. jonasw zinid, there have been very concrete proposals
  97. zinid jonasw: I didn't find the solution with ancient servers
  98. zinid I mean I didn't see such proposal
  99. jonasw (using Bind 2.0 as a signal for "use IM 2.0 rules" and some s2s protocol to make serves negotiate that between them, PLUS and here’s where your ancient servers come into play, fallback to the existing Hints for Carbons and MAM by writing them explicitly into the messages when transferring to IM 1.0 domains)
  100. zinid fuck yeah, much easier :D
  101. jonasw much easier than what?
  102. zinid [10:26:12] <jonasw> things might in fact get simpler
  103. zinid what did you mean here? :)
  104. zinid I see only more complexity, it looks for me new servers need to maintain old and new behaviour
  105. jonasw zinid, inside the IM 2.0 domain, you’d see much simpler rules for archiving and carbons than what we currently have
  106. zinid probably, but those rules still suck in the sense of replica synchronization
  107. jonasw do they?
  108. zinid for example eventual consistency is not guaranteed at all
  109. jonasw isn’t its
  110. jonasw isn’t it?
  111. zinid you can lose messages easily
  112. jonasw how?
  113. zinid via s2s failures?
  114. jonasw stream management?
  115. zinid it doesn't solve all the problems
  116. jonasw sure, but many
  117. zinid no
  118. zinid it doesn't solve a problem with server outage for significant time
  119. jonasw and also, the current discussion is mostly about different clients on the same account
  120. jonasw do you think it should be extended to different accounts?
  121. zinid typically the message is buffered for 5 minutes
  122. jonasw on server outage with significant time I’d expect message loss, it’s as simple as that
  123. zinid yes, I know what about the current discussion ;)
  124. jonasw the sender would get an error back, it’s a rather clear situation?
  125. zinid jonasw: well, I have quite some experiences in database design and I would say consistency should be guaranteed even with huge outage
  126. zinid jonasw: yes, it will receive error back, then what? the recipient loses the message forever
  127. jonasw it is clear to the sender that the recipient has never seen the message
  128. jonasw or that the message was never even sent
  129. zinid yeah, that's not how eventual consistency works ;)
  130. jonasw I find it consistent.
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  132. jonasw both nodes end up to "know" the "message was not sent" state
  133. zinid you face inconsistent state and you need to resolve it *eventually*
  134. jonasw (the sender explicitly by seeing the error, the recipient implicitly by not seeing the message)
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  137. zinid no, recipient node might know jack shit
  138. zinid due to unexpected failures
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  140. zinid this is acceptable in p2p computing for example
  141. zinid and is tolerated
  142. zinid but not in xmpp ;)
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  145. zinid distributed databases even have anti-entropy technics to deal with rotten bits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_rot), but let's say we don't need this in xmpp (at least so far)
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  150. zinid I find matrix approach very decent in this regard, however their use of http polling and json is annoying
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  155. Holger Exactly.
  156. zinid yeah, the idea is great, implementation is shit
  157. zinid I still think servers should not replicate, it should be done peer-to-peer
  158. zinid servers could maintain replicas, but this is not required
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  160. Holger The replicas are just caches in Matrix I think. At least I don't see why servers couldn't just ditch and later re-fetch them.
  161. zinid probably, I don't know all the details
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  163. zinid but look, this is much easier to fetch replicas p2p: when you become available you ask for replicas of your contacts (possessing the last seen message id)
  164. zinid you don't even need stream management queues for this
  165. jonasw except that you wouldn’t want your phone to drain its battery on syncing other peoples messages
  166. zinid jonasw: yes, so replication servers are needed, so they can reply to such replica requests by themselves (without client involvement)
  167. jonasw at which point you’re ditching the p2p approach and we’re kind-of back to "ask for MAM on your server"
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  169. zinid no, I can disable this feature on my server
  170. zinid but this can be implemented via MAM, yes
  171. zinid we already have this for groupchats
  172. zinid why contacts are different?
  173. jonasw see above?
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  175. zinid what exactly do you mean? MAM should be considered as just another replica or cache
  176. jonasw I mean the power consumption issue.
  177. zinid of course there can be tons of replicas, so?
  178. zinid what issue if you ask your server to maintain replicas?
  179. jonasw I don’t see how that would work, discovery and security-wise.
  180. jonasw I don’t have any issue with that, it is simply MAM
  181. zinid I don't find it less secure than current approach
  182. jonasw anyways, gotta go, I already typed too much today (hand injury) :(
  183. zinid jonasw: this is kinda "enchanced" mam :)
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  238. Link Mauve “07:54:06 jonasw> on server outage with significant time I’d expect message loss, it’s as simple as that”, people coming from email would be sad to hear that, it’s been a solved problem for a long time there.
  239. jonasw Link Mauve, when you have a long outage, emails will bounce just like IM messages do
  240. jonasw the term "long" is relative and may be different for IM and Email
  241. Zash It's *Instant* Messaging after all
  242. zinid Zash: nah, it's data replication now, that's the problem
  243. Zash Yeah :(
  244. zinid and we're trying to solve this replication problem via IM
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  246. Link Mauve Hence the huge whiteboard I’ve been promised for years. :(
  247. jonasw FOSDEM?
  248. Zash Yes! Brussels 2018 - The Whiteboardening
  249. jonasw sounds like I really need to sort that out
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  271. Link Mauve Let’s use Markdown! https://statuscode.ch/2017/11/from-markdown-to-rce-in-atom/
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  276. jonasw ah, they failed to sanitize HTML :)
  277. jonasw the HTML support in the markdown component is left enabled intentionally
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  279. zinid html inside markdown looks like a really insane idea ;)
  280. jonasw zinid, markdown is specified as an HTML superset, IIRC
  281. Zash markdown is defined as a html superset
  282. Zash too slow
  283. zinid wat?
  284. zinid a html superset?
  285. jonasw yup
  286. zinid what does that mean?
  287. jonasw every valid HTML document is a valid markdown document
  288. zinid oh shi~
  289. jonasw (even though I’m not sure that’s actually true, there are probably some corner casesr
  290. jonasw (even though I’m not sure that’s actually true, there are probably some corner cases)
  291. jonasw but it’s intended to be that way
  292. zinid actually, every text is a valid markdown document, no?
  293. jonasw yes
  294. zinid so markdown is a text superset, okay
  295. jonasw but the semantics of a valid html document interpreted as markdown are the same of the html docmuent interpreted as html
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  299. zinid nevertheless, the article is interesting
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  306. jonasw I wonder what those german guys asking about XEP-0392 are about.
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  312. daniel jonasw, what do you mean? that's the jsxc developer
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  315. daniel the client that is mostly known for its integration into nextcloud
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  317. jonasw daniel, and the other three?
  318. jonasw *two
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  320. daniel christian schudt is the babbler developer
  321. jonasw (not saying that it’s a bad thing or something, I was just wondering why suddenly)
  322. jonasw you know people, it’s scary
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  324. daniel and klaus herberth is i believe also jsxc
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  326. jonasw yeah, Klaus Herberth has jsxc in his mail adress, so I assumed you were talking about him when referring to "the jsxc developer"
  327. daniel I see. I was originially talking about marcel because that's the first email i saw
  328. jonasw ah ok
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  333. daniel Fwiw I don't know any of these people. I just know of them. Babbler is super awesome.
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  339. pep. jonasw, https://ppjet.bouah.net/poezio-colors.png one use case of why using the bare JID for colors is meh
  340. pep. nick would be better in that case. These are all IRC users, going through a bridge (Gluttony)
  341. mathieui pep., jonasw already said it on the list
  342. pep. Ah I have to catch up
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  344. zinid too many germans in jabber
  345. mathieui says the russian
  346. Zash too many humans
  347. zinid mathieui: russians in jabber can only write spam bots and talk shit, mostly ;)
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  444. Flow daniel, do you want a MAM namespace bump?
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  446. daniel Flow: no?!
  447. Flow or, in other words, isn't a MAM namespace bump required for your proposed excluded-types?
  448. Flow or is the service required to return an error on unknown fields? which would be good I think
  449. daniel Flow, i think the additional filter thingy is off the table anyway
  450. daniel we just gonna adjust the rules
  451. Flow ohh :( I like the idea of additional flexible filters which are discoverable
  452. daniel Flow, custom filters are already part of the protocol
  453. Flow and not specified in xep313
  454. Ge0rG what about making MAM responses type=headline?
  455. Ge0rG Aaaand changing the default configuration to "N/A"
  456. Flow daniel, right, but there is currently no specification for message type filters
  457. Flow Ge0rG, I can't follow, but it's likely because it has been a long week
  458. Flow I believe that MAM archives should be allowed to also archive groupchat messages FWIW
  459. daniel if they were specified they wouldn't be custom, no?
  460. Ge0rG Flow: type=headline would better reflect the ephemeral status of MAM responses, and the rationale for "N/A" is in https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-November/033762.html (c)
  461. Ge0rG Flow: why do you believe that way?
  462. Flow daniel, probably, but does not matter, I want a mandatory set of filter mechanism which can be extended by discoverable additional filters, so that we can experiment which filters are a good idea and which are unnecessary
  463. daniel Ge0rG, am i reading this mail correctly you are planning to come to the summit?
  464. Flow Ge0rG, most for the same reasons that Kev said
  465. Ge0rG Flow: I disagree with Kev on that.
  466. Ge0rG daniel: I can't promise that.
  467. Ge0rG I really can't.
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  469. Flow Ge0rG, My vision is to give MAM services maximal freedom regarding what to archive, and clients should be given the filtering mechanisms they need
  470. Ge0rG Flow: what about using a separate XEP for all of that?
  471. Flow Ge0rG, for the f
  472. Flow iltering mechs?
  473. Flow (the optinal filtering mechs)
  474. Zash What gets stored should be up to server policy. What gets can be described by a XEP
  475. Ge0rG Flow: no, for things that go beyond normal im client message archival.
  476. Ge0rG Zash: implementation defied!!!!
  477. Flow Ge0rG, wouldn't that be an MAM alternative?
  478. Ge0rG Flow: what about using the same backend storage but not return everything to normal MAM requests?
  479. Flow Ge0rG, if you still have the possiblity to return groupchat and probably all other types of messages, then that would be fine in my book
  480. Flow err, to return if the client asked for it
  481. Ge0rG Flow: the server is free to store anything it wants, as longs as it only returns what's written in MAM on a normal MAM query
  482. daniel Flow, it's not my XEP; i could live with the filtering on query proposal. (also I believe storing groupchat in the personal archive has downsides that make it not really fit for use). I believe existing implementations would ignore unknown form fields. thus introducing new ones could be done without a NS bump
  483. daniel so to answer you question no I'm not planning a NS bump. I'm not planning anything
  484. Flow daniel, guess my initial question was if you think that your proposal 2) would require a NS bump
  485. Flow I'm not sure if the service ignoring unknown fields means that you can avoid a namespace bump
  486. Ge0rG really, let's get rid of namespace bumps altogether.
  487. daniel i generally tend to be on the rather not bump if it doesn't cause issues with existing implementations faction
  488. Flow Yeah for unexpected behavior
  489. Ge0rG I'm sure it's possible to replace almost every ns bump with a feature.
  490. Flow Ge0rG, well then it's ok
  491. Ge0rG but in this specific case, I don't want to extend MAM.
  492. daniel but existing implementations need to change anway because they a) need to start actutally storing groupchats b) add a database field for the type to make the query efficent
  493. Ge0rG are there provisions in MAM to full-body-search for messages?
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  495. Flow Ge0rG, I don't think so
  496. Ge0rG Flow: so what's your use case again?
  497. Flow And while at it, I want to point out that K9 did for years client local searches. It took a while until they implemented server side IMAP searches
  498. Ge0rG Flow: that's actually an argument against gc in mam
  499. Flow No, it's just an observation regarding the importance of a server side search feature
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  502. daniel Flow, maybe make your argument for groupchat in the user archive on the list
  503. Ge0rG yes please
  504. daniel not sure if the relevant people are following this discussion
  505. daniel in here
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  507. zinid seems like the list = this room
  508. zinid all the same people around
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  510. daniel zinid, i'm not sure people read the backlog here. i certainly don't
  511. Ge0rG zinid: there is a formal difference.
  512. Ge0rG zinid: Council needs to catch up on standards@
  513. zinid daniel: I'm reading backlog when I have nothing to do ;)
  514. zinid daniel: actually I rant here only when I'm bored :)
  515. Ge0rG zinid: then it looks like you need a {boy,girl,other}friend
  516. zinid Ge0rG: nah thanks, I'm good with my wife and son
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  523. Guus when is that lottery drawing?
  524. Guus which was it again
  525. Guus euro something?
  526. Ge0rG Guus: https://www.euro-millions.com/results
  527. Guus tx
  528. Guus no results yet
  529. Zash 41 minutes?
  530. Guus ah, 21 CET (that's in an hour)
  531. Ge0rG Now I wonder if somebody can hack that web page.
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  533. zinid what the fuck is this?
  534. Guus zinid, could you be more specific and less explicit please?
  535. Guus crap, crying kid, afk
  536. zinid Guus: no
  537. zinid other questions?
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  540. Guus It wasn't a question, it was a request: please act in a civil manner here - it makes for a better atmosphere, which helps us to achieve more.
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  549. zinid Guus: I act as I want, stop teaching me, I really don't care how you think one should act
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  551. Guus zinid: I'm sorry to hear that.
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  553. zinid Yeah, people have different views, deal with it 😀
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  555. zinid Really, if you cannot tolerate words like crap or shit you're better off not using internet
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  562. Ge0rG zinid: this place is not made for your crap and shit, but for constructive discussions in the context of XMPP. There are plenty of other places on the internet where you can behave like an a*hole and make friends that way...
  563. la|r|ma has joined
  564. zinid Ge0rG: oh, I started to think you will not chime in 😂
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  568. Ge0rG zinid: I've got a decade worth of channel operator experience in Germany's worst IRCNet channel, I have a sixth sense for trolling time... 😜
  569. Guus In other news: the Euro-millions draw is in progress!
  570. Guus animated gifs and all!
  571. Guus I'll give calculation a shot, but it'd be good to have someone else verify my results.
  572. Guus (although technically, Alex will probably sign-off anyway?)
  573. zinid Ge0rG: so euro millions is a constructive discussion?
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  575. zinid "in the context of XMPP"
  576. Guus zinid: ah, that's were you were getting at earlier. Yes, it is, actually.
  577. Guus the board member vote were in a tie. The tie-breaker is a procedure that takes the outcome off this euro millions draw.
  578. zinid I didn't get anything
  579. zinid tie, producer, draw, wtf
  580. zinid ah, procedure
  581. daniel has left
  582. Guus "that's where you were getting at" <-- I now understand the confusion.
  583. zinid I'm so excited, much wow
  584. Guus most background is here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2017-November/008695.html
  585. zinid not interested, I don't care about your policy and your invented rules
  586. zinid I'm interested in standards
  587. daniel has left
  588. Guus suit yourself. We can definately use your help with the standards!
  589. zinid whoever you will elect, jabber will continue degrading, I'm 99% sure
  590. zinid Guus: I don't write documents, too much effort, 95% of time I will spend with english-russian dictionary
  591. zinid or russian-english, whatever ;)
  592. Guus Don't worry, there are lots of ways you can help out with the standards that don't require writing stuff down.
  593. burrblurr has joined
  594. zinid this looks like a sect
  595. Ge0rG zinid: people are having fun with technical protocols to ensure fairness of an election. If you compare that to elections in the USA, where districts are rebuilt to optimize vote results, or your country, where the president gets elected with 115%, it's a really great process... 😝
  596. Guus Nah. We're all friends. Here, have a sip of my kool-aid.
  597. zinid Ge0rG: not sure what technical protocols you mean. like your election bot, lol?
  598. Ge0rG Guus: that's what Jim Jones said...
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  600. Ge0rG zinid: if you weren't so busy cursing, you'd already know
  601. zinid yeah, if I was interested
  602. zinid but I don't give a shit, luckily ;)
  603. Ge0rG zinid: you are bored anyway, give it a try
  604. Guus Results are in! By my calcultion: 19 - 24 - 28 - 30 - 50 -> -> f2507b627edc74d540e7cb747138ed7ee8e19d4458f9db5bfd3a92b5c97a9541 -> Nÿco
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  639. ralphm zinid: if you can't be bothered to behave like a normal person, please leave. I'm serious.
  640. zinid ralphm: who are you?
  641. ralphm I'm the XSF Chair
  642. zinid wow
  643. zinid what if I tell no?
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  645. ralphm I'm not sure what your thing is, but I've been getting complaints. We like this community to be inclusive and I don't appreciate our hospitality to be abused. By asking such a question, it appears that you don't care. If I'm wrong about this, please let me know.
  646. zinid yeah, I already understood that you build only the community you like, people who you like to see, without any technical merits
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  648. zinid so how far did this policy bring you?
  649. la|r|ma has left
  650. zinid xmpp is a degrading protocol which is nobody want to implement and even here about
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  652. ralphm Feel free to leave if you think we are doomed
  653. zinid nah, I like here
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  659. ralphm Well, good. We welcome discussions on technical matters, in a civilized matter. It may all be funny for you to repeat how bad you think the protocol, our procedures, or the people in our community are. I don't find it acceptable. If you insist on keeping that up, I will simply remove you from the XSF maintained venues like this room.
  660. lskdjf has joined
  661. zinid ralphm: why don't you remove yourself? I don't even know you, what did you do for xmpp? I don't remember you discussing the protocol. Why do you have power to remove developers from this room?
  662. ralphm I'd you can't be bothered to even look that up, that's on you. This room is hosted by the XMPP Standards Foundation. I'm its Chairman. It's pretty much similar to how I would throw out a guest in my house if he starts bothering the other guests.
  663. zinid ralphm: ah, so you're a boss here
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  665. ralphm If you need that kind of confirmation, yes.
  666. zinid ralphm: so your task is to ban developers you don't like, boss?
  667. ralphm zinid: yes. Bye.
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  670. Steve Kille ralphm: good job!
  671. ralphm I had one job, I guess.
  672. Steve Kille some things the world can do without
  673. ralphm I can only hope he fairs better in other settings, so banning him from the world seemed excessive. For now.
  674. valo has joined
  675. ralphm Fares, even. Yay auto-correct.
  676. Guus To bad it came to this. Always feels like a loss to me.
  677. Guus Not sure what the provocation was about.
  678. SamWhited It doesn't take much provocation to make him try to insult you. It would be more of a loss if new people see that kind of abuse and don't get involved because he'll just call them an idiot.
  679. ralphm I've had multiple complaints, and I'd like to think I'm a reasonable and generally nice guy. I also read back some previous discussions. Before, other people asked nicely. I did a final attempt. He keeps on trolling. Fine.
  680. ralphm I've suggested improvements to other people before, and those people have changed their ways. I can sometimes be annoyed, but this is simply intentionally riling up people, and I don't think we need to tolerate this.
  681. Guus Oh, I didn't want to to imply you were unreasonable.
  682. ralphm Good. You are actually close-by.
  683. Guus Close-by?
  684. ralphm Physically close. As in within a few kilometers.
  685. ralphm Sorry I didn't come by last weekend. How was t-dose?
  686. Guus ralphm: uneventful, sadly.
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  688. ralphm Right. They have never seemed to live up to their goal of being a bit like FOSDEM-in-the-fall. Too bad.
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  693. Holger Ugh, WTF.
  694. Holger I don't think "what the fuck is this?" was even remotely meant to be a provocation.
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  696. Holger I mean I can't speak for zinid but this quite obviously reads like "what on earth is this Euro-millions thing?" to me.
  697. Holger And I'm not sure he called an individual an idiot.
  698. ralphm If it was just that, it would be just fine. I say things like that all the time
  699. SamWhited He's called multiple people idiots and been asked to stop, though he might not have used those words this time.
  700. Holger Aha.
  701. Guus Holger: I only asked him to be civil, and stopped when he made clear he had no intention.
  702. Guus I've made a point of not escalate things. Sadly, that did not work.
  703. Holger I see him using flippant slang. As for the substance, I see him ranting against how this community does things. I totally understand how he won't make friends that way.
  704. Guus I'm perfectly fine with arguments and dont mind expletives at all - but I do think it's important to have civil discourse.
  705. Holger But I won't agree with this as a reason for a ban.
  706. SamWhited He was asked to stop multiple times by different people including Guus, me, George, and probably others and only responded with abuse. Then someone who actually has authority politely warned him and he still didn't listen, I'm not sure what else there is to do besides a ban.
  707. SamWhited If he tells a new person that their spec or ideas are garbage they're not likely to come back; no community needs that kind of toxic behavior, no matter how smart the person is.
  708. ralphm Holger: just read back the logs for a few days. He's more than welcome if he can behave like a normal person.
  709. ralphm I'm going for some sleep now.
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  711. Guus Goodnight
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  714. Holger SamWhited: Yes, different people use different tone, and asking them to change it tends to not work that well in my experience.
  715. Holger How many days of backlog am I supposed to read to find the reason for the ban? I skimmed through November now. I found some purely technical comments on various details, some ranting on MIX, EXI, Twitter, Java, the XSF membership/council election process, and our priorities. I guess I overlooked something.
  716. Holger Whatever, this is your show, I'm not even a member. I'll shut up.
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