Ge0rG, and everyone else, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=Easy_Group_Chats&curid=12&diff=9796&oldid=18
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zinid
MattJ: nobody has stolen your approach, you don't have it implemented
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jonasw
Link Mauve, +1
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jonasw
I still have no good idea how to glue all the layers together in my client to actaully be able to implement that chain of fallbacks :/
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zinid
my thoughts exactly when I try to implement new cool xmpp things: calling hooks in unexpected places is annoying
zinid
for example, dealing with messages forks and carbons is a nightmare
jonasw
zinid, you should involve yourself in the Message Routing 2.0 discussion, if you aren’t already
jonasw
things might in fact get simpler
jonasw
I always wonder whether this perceived complexity is from my inexperience with 1Mloc+ projects or if this is specific to the IM domain or if this is specific to the XMPP domain
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zinid
I think that's because of paradigms change
jonasw
you mean existing code having hardship with adapting to the new situations?
zinid
we used to have simple chatting where you don't need to *synchronize*
zinid
no, I mean IM paradigm
zinid
now we face the problem which is in fact data *synchronization*
zinid
take a look at mam and carbons
zinid
those are clearly replica transfers
jonasw
sure
zinid
so I would suggest to implement this replica layer first
zinid
but I have no idea how to make the transition :/
zinid
I also think XML is not the best way to exchange replicas, lol
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zinid
anyway, we can invent new and shiny IM 2.0, but how to make the transition?
zinid
that's why I virtually don't discuss the topic
zinid
I have no ideas
jonasw
zinid, there have been very concrete proposals
zinid
jonasw: I didn't find the solution with ancient servers
zinid
I mean I didn't see such proposal
jonasw
(using Bind 2.0 as a signal for "use IM 2.0 rules" and some s2s protocol to make serves negotiate that between them, PLUS and here’s where your ancient servers come into play, fallback to the existing Hints for Carbons and MAM by writing them explicitly into the messages when transferring to IM 1.0 domains)
zinid
fuck yeah, much easier :D
jonasw
much easier than what?
zinid
[10:26:12] <jonasw> things might in fact get simpler
zinid
what did you mean here? :)
zinid
I see only more complexity, it looks for me new servers need to maintain old and new behaviour
jonasw
zinid, inside the IM 2.0 domain, you’d see much simpler rules for archiving and carbons than what we currently have
zinid
probably, but those rules still suck in the sense of replica synchronization
jonasw
do they?
zinid
for example eventual consistency is not guaranteed at all
it doesn't solve a problem with server outage for significant time
jonasw
and also, the current discussion is mostly about different clients on the same account
jonasw
do you think it should be extended to different accounts?
zinid
typically the message is buffered for 5 minutes
jonasw
on server outage with significant time I’d expect message loss, it’s as simple as that
zinid
yes, I know what about the current discussion ;)
jonasw
the sender would get an error back, it’s a rather clear situation?
zinid
jonasw: well, I have quite some experiences in database design and I would say consistency should be guaranteed even with huge outage
zinid
jonasw: yes, it will receive error back, then what? the recipient loses the message forever
jonasw
it is clear to the sender that the recipient has never seen the message
jonasw
or that the message was never even sent
zinid
yeah, that's not how eventual consistency works ;)
jonasw
I find it consistent.
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jonasw
both nodes end up to "know" the "message was not sent" state
zinid
you face inconsistent state and you need to resolve it *eventually*
jonasw
(the sender explicitly by seeing the error, the recipient implicitly by not seeing the message)
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zinid
no, recipient node might know jack shit
zinid
due to unexpected failures
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zinid
this is acceptable in p2p computing for example
zinid
and is tolerated
zinid
but not in xmpp ;)
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zinid
distributed databases even have anti-entropy technics to deal with rotten bits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_rot), but let's say we don't need this in xmpp (at least so far)
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zinid
I find matrix approach very decent in this regard, however their use of http polling and json is annoying
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Holger
Exactly.
zinid
yeah, the idea is great, implementation is shit
zinid
I still think servers should not replicate, it should be done peer-to-peer
zinid
servers could maintain replicas, but this is not required
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Holger
The replicas are just caches in Matrix I think. At least I don't see why servers couldn't just ditch and later re-fetch them.
zinid
probably, I don't know all the details
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zinid
but look, this is much easier to fetch replicas p2p: when you become available you ask for replicas of your contacts (possessing the last seen message id)
zinid
you don't even need stream management queues for this
jonasw
except that you wouldn’t want your phone to drain its battery on syncing other peoples messages
zinid
jonasw: yes, so replication servers are needed, so they can reply to such replica requests by themselves (without client involvement)
jonasw
at which point you’re ditching the p2p approach and we’re kind-of back to "ask for MAM on your server"
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zinid
no, I can disable this feature on my server
zinid
but this can be implemented via MAM, yes
zinid
we already have this for groupchats
zinid
why contacts are different?
jonasw
see above?
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zinid
what exactly do you mean? MAM should be considered as just another replica or cache
jonasw
I mean the power consumption issue.
zinid
of course there can be tons of replicas, so?
zinid
what issue if you ask your server to maintain replicas?
jonasw
I don’t see how that would work, discovery and security-wise.
jonasw
I don’t have any issue with that, it is simply MAM
zinid
I don't find it less secure than current approach
jonasw
anyways, gotta go, I already typed too much today (hand injury) :(
zinid
jonasw: this is kinda "enchanced" mam :)
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Link Mauve
“07:54:06 jonasw> on server outage with significant time I’d expect message loss, it’s as simple as that”, people coming from email would be sad to hear that, it’s been a solved problem for a long time there.
jonasw
Link Mauve, when you have a long outage, emails will bounce just like IM messages do
jonasw
the term "long" is relative and may be different for IM and Email
Zash
It's *Instant* Messaging after all
zinid
Zash: nah, it's data replication now, that's the problem
Zash
Yeah :(
zinid
and we're trying to solve this replication problem via IM
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Link Mauve
Hence the huge whiteboard I’ve been promised for years. :(
jonasw
FOSDEM?
Zash
Yes! Brussels 2018 - The Whiteboardening
jonasw
sounds like I really need to sort that out
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Link Mauve
Let’s use Markdown! https://statuscode.ch/2017/11/from-markdown-to-rce-in-atom/
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jonasw
ah, they failed to sanitize HTML :)
jonasw
the HTML support in the markdown component is left enabled intentionally
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zinid
html inside markdown looks like a really insane idea ;)
jonasw
zinid, markdown is specified as an HTML superset, IIRC
Zash
markdown is defined as a html superset
Zash
too slow
zinid
wat?
zinid
a html superset?
jonasw
yup
zinid
what does that mean?
jonasw
every valid HTML document is a valid markdown document
zinid
oh shi~
jonasw
(even though I’m not sure that’s actually true, there are probably some corner casesr✎
jonasw
(even though I’m not sure that’s actually true, there are probably some corner cases) ✏
jonasw
but it’s intended to be that way
zinid
actually, every text is a valid markdown document, no?
jonasw
yes
zinid
so markdown is a text superset, okay
jonasw
but the semantics of a valid html document interpreted as markdown are the same of the html docmuent interpreted as html
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zinid
nevertheless, the article is interesting
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jonasw
I wonder what those german guys asking about XEP-0392 are about.
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daniel
jonasw, what do you mean? that's the jsxc developer
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daniel
the client that is mostly known for its integration into nextcloud
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jonasw
daniel, and the other three?
jonasw
*two
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daniel
christian schudt is the babbler developer
jonasw
(not saying that it’s a bad thing or something, I was just wondering why suddenly)
jonasw
you know people, it’s scary
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daniel
and klaus herberth is i believe also jsxc
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jonasw
yeah, Klaus Herberth has jsxc in his mail adress, so I assumed you were talking about him when referring to "the jsxc developer"
daniel
I see. I was originially talking about marcel because that's the first email i saw
jonasw
ah ok
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daniel
Fwiw I don't know any of these people. I just know of them. Babbler is super awesome.
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pep.
jonasw, https://ppjet.bouah.net/poezio-colors.png one use case of why using the bare JID for colors is meh
pep.
nick would be better in that case. These are all IRC users, going through a bridge (Gluttony)
mathieui
pep., jonasw already said it on the list
pep.
Ah I have to catch up
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zinid
too many germans in jabber
mathieui
says the russian
Zash
too many humans
zinid
mathieui: russians in jabber can only write spam bots and talk shit, mostly ;)
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Flow
daniel, do you want a MAM namespace bump?
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daniel
Flow: no?!
Flow
or, in other words, isn't a MAM namespace bump required for your proposed excluded-types?
Flow
or is the service required to return an error on unknown fields? which would be good I think
daniel
Flow, i think the additional filter thingy is off the table anyway
daniel
we just gonna adjust the rules
Flow
ohh :( I like the idea of additional flexible filters which are discoverable
daniel
Flow, custom filters are already part of the protocol
Flow
and not specified in xep313
Ge0rG
what about making MAM responses type=headline?
Ge0rG
Aaaand changing the default configuration to "N/A"
Flow
daniel, right, but there is currently no specification for message type filters
Flow
Ge0rG, I can't follow, but it's likely because it has been a long week
Flow
I believe that MAM archives should be allowed to also archive groupchat messages FWIW
daniel
if they were specified they wouldn't be custom, no?
Ge0rG
Flow: type=headline would better reflect the ephemeral status of MAM responses, and the rationale for "N/A" is in https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-November/033762.html (c)
Ge0rG
Flow: why do you believe that way?
Flow
daniel, probably, but does not matter, I want a mandatory set of filter mechanism which can be extended by discoverable additional filters, so that we can experiment which filters are a good idea and which are unnecessary
daniel
Ge0rG, am i reading this mail correctly you are planning to come to the summit?
Flow
Ge0rG, most for the same reasons that Kev said
Ge0rG
Flow: I disagree with Kev on that.
Ge0rG
daniel: I can't promise that.
Ge0rG
I really can't.
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Flow
Ge0rG, My vision is to give MAM services maximal freedom regarding what to archive, and clients should be given the filtering mechanisms they need
Ge0rG
Flow: what about using a separate XEP for all of that?
Flow
Ge0rG, for the f
Flow
iltering mechs?
Flow
(the optinal filtering mechs)
Zash
What gets stored should be up to server policy. What gets can be described by a XEP
Ge0rG
Flow: no, for things that go beyond normal im client message archival.
Ge0rG
Zash: implementation defied!!!!
Flow
Ge0rG, wouldn't that be an MAM alternative?
Ge0rG
Flow: what about using the same backend storage but not return everything to normal MAM requests?
Flow
Ge0rG, if you still have the possiblity to return groupchat and probably all other types of messages, then that would be fine in my book
Flow
err, to return if the client asked for it
Ge0rG
Flow: the server is free to store anything it wants, as longs as it only returns what's written in MAM on a normal MAM query
daniel
Flow, it's not my XEP; i could live with the filtering on query proposal. (also I believe storing groupchat in the personal archive has downsides that make it not really fit for use). I believe existing implementations would ignore unknown form fields. thus introducing new ones could be done without a NS bump
daniel
so to answer you question no I'm not planning a NS bump. I'm not planning anything
Flow
daniel, guess my initial question was if you think that your proposal 2) would require a NS bump
Flow
I'm not sure if the service ignoring unknown fields means that you can avoid a namespace bump
Ge0rG
really, let's get rid of namespace bumps altogether.
daniel
i generally tend to be on the rather not bump if it doesn't cause issues with existing implementations faction
Flow
Yeah for unexpected behavior
Ge0rG
I'm sure it's possible to replace almost every ns bump with a feature.
Flow
Ge0rG, well then it's ok
Ge0rG
but in this specific case, I don't want to extend MAM.
daniel
but existing implementations need to change anway because they a) need to start actutally storing groupchats b) add a database field for the type to make the query efficent
Ge0rG
are there provisions in MAM to full-body-search for messages?
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Flow
Ge0rG, I don't think so
Ge0rG
Flow: so what's your use case again?
Flow
And while at it, I want to point out that K9 did for years client local searches. It took a while until they implemented server side IMAP searches
Ge0rG
Flow: that's actually an argument against gc in mam
Flow
No, it's just an observation regarding the importance of a server side search feature
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daniel
Flow, maybe make your argument for groupchat in the user archive on the list
Ge0rG
yes please
daniel
not sure if the relevant people are following this discussion
daniel
in here
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zinid
seems like the list = this room
zinid
all the same people around
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daniel
zinid, i'm not sure people read the backlog here. i certainly don't
Ge0rG
zinid: there is a formal difference.
Ge0rG
zinid: Council needs to catch up on standards@
zinid
daniel: I'm reading backlog when I have nothing to do ;)
zinid
daniel: actually I rant here only when I'm bored :)
Ge0rG
zinid: then it looks like you need a {boy,girl,other}friend
zinid
Ge0rG: nah thanks, I'm good with my wife and son
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Guus
when is that lottery drawing?
Guus
which was it again
Guus
euro something?
Ge0rG
Guus: https://www.euro-millions.com/results
Guus
tx
Guus
no results yet
Zash
41 minutes?
Guus
ah, 21 CET (that's in an hour)
Ge0rG
Now I wonder if somebody can hack that web page.
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zinid
what the fuck is this?
Guus
zinid, could you be more specific and less explicit please?
Guus
crap, crying kid, afk
zinid
Guus: no
zinid
other questions?
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Guus
It wasn't a question, it was a request: please act in a civil manner here - it makes for a better atmosphere, which helps us to achieve more.
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zinid
Guus: I act as I want, stop teaching me, I really don't care how you think one should act
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Guus
zinid: I'm sorry to hear that.
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zinid
Yeah, people have different views, deal with it 😀
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zinid
Really, if you cannot tolerate words like crap or shit you're better off not using internet
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Ge0rG
zinid: this place is not made for your crap and shit, but for constructive discussions in the context of XMPP. There are plenty of other places on the internet where you can behave like an a*hole and make friends that way...
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zinid
Ge0rG: oh, I started to think you will not chime in 😂
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Ge0rG
zinid: I've got a decade worth of channel operator experience in Germany's worst IRCNet channel, I have a sixth sense for trolling time... 😜
Guus
In other news: the Euro-millions draw is in progress!
Guus
animated gifs and all!
Guus
I'll give calculation a shot, but it'd be good to have someone else verify my results.
Guus
(although technically, Alex will probably sign-off anyway?)
zinid
Ge0rG: so euro millions is a constructive discussion?
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zinid
"in the context of XMPP"
Guus
zinid: ah, that's were you were getting at earlier. Yes, it is, actually.
Guus
the board member vote were in a tie. The tie-breaker is a procedure that takes the outcome off this euro millions draw.
zinid
I didn't get anything
zinid
tie, producer, draw, wtf
zinid
ah, procedure
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Guus
"that's where you were getting at" <-- I now understand the confusion.
zinid
I'm so excited, much wow
Guus
most background is here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2017-November/008695.html
zinid
not interested, I don't care about your policy and your invented rules
zinid
I'm interested in standards
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Guus
suit yourself. We can definately use your help with the standards!
zinid
whoever you will elect, jabber will continue degrading, I'm 99% sure
zinid
Guus: I don't write documents, too much effort, 95% of time I will spend with english-russian dictionary
zinid
or russian-english, whatever ;)
Guus
Don't worry, there are lots of ways you can help out with the standards that don't require writing stuff down.
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zinid
this looks like a sect
Ge0rG
zinid: people are having fun with technical protocols to ensure fairness of an election. If you compare that to elections in the USA, where districts are rebuilt to optimize vote results, or your country, where the president gets elected with 115%, it's a really great process... 😝
Guus
Nah. We're all friends. Here, have a sip of my kool-aid.
zinid
Ge0rG: not sure what technical protocols you mean. like your election bot, lol?
Ge0rG
Guus: that's what Jim Jones said...
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Ge0rG
zinid: if you weren't so busy cursing, you'd already know
zinid
yeah, if I was interested
zinid
but I don't give a shit, luckily ;)
Ge0rG
zinid: you are bored anyway, give it a try
Guus
Results are in! By my calcultion: 19 - 24 - 28 - 30 - 50 -> 19.24.28.30.50./ -> f2507b627edc74d540e7cb747138ed7ee8e19d4458f9db5bfd3a92b5c97a9541 -> Nÿco
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ralphm
zinid: if you can't be bothered to behave like a normal person, please leave. I'm serious.
zinid
ralphm: who are you?
ralphm
I'm the XSF Chair
zinid
wow
zinid
what if I tell no?
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ralphm
I'm not sure what your thing is, but I've been getting complaints. We like this community to be inclusive and I don't appreciate our hospitality to be abused. By asking such a question, it appears that you don't care. If I'm wrong about this, please let me know.
zinid
yeah, I already understood that you build only the community you like, people who you like to see, without any technical merits
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zinid
so how far did this policy bring you?
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zinid
xmpp is a degrading protocol which is nobody want to implement and even here about
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ralphm
Feel free to leave if you think we are doomed
zinid
nah, I like here
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ralphm
Well, good. We welcome discussions on technical matters, in a civilized matter. It may all be funny for you to repeat how bad you think the protocol, our procedures, or the people in our community are. I don't find it acceptable. If you insist on keeping that up, I will simply remove you from the XSF maintained venues like this room.
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zinid
ralphm: why don't you remove yourself? I don't even know you, what did you do for xmpp? I don't remember you discussing the protocol. Why do you have power to remove developers from this room?
ralphm
I'd you can't be bothered to even look that up, that's on you. This room is hosted by the XMPP Standards Foundation. I'm its Chairman. It's pretty much similar to how I would throw out a guest in my house if he starts bothering the other guests.
zinid
ralphm: ah, so you're a boss here
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ralphm
If you need that kind of confirmation, yes.
zinid
ralphm: so your task is to ban developers you don't like, boss?
ralphm
zinid: yes. Bye.
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Steve Kille
ralphm: good job!
ralphm
I had one job, I guess.
Steve Kille
some things the world can do without
ralphm
I can only hope he fairs better in other settings, so banning him from the world seemed excessive. For now.
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ralphm
Fares, even. Yay auto-correct.
Guus
To bad it came to this. Always feels like a loss to me.
Guus
Not sure what the provocation was about.
SamWhited
It doesn't take much provocation to make him try to insult you. It would be more of a loss if new people see that kind of abuse and don't get involved because he'll just call them an idiot.
ralphm
I've had multiple complaints, and I'd like to think I'm a reasonable and generally nice guy. I also read back some previous discussions. Before, other people asked nicely. I did a final attempt. He keeps on trolling. Fine.
ralphm
I've suggested improvements to other people before, and those people have changed their ways. I can sometimes be annoyed, but this is simply intentionally riling up people, and I don't think we need to tolerate this.
Guus
Oh, I didn't want to to imply you were unreasonable.
ralphm
Good. You are actually close-by.
Guus
Close-by?
ralphm
Physically close. As in within a few kilometers.
ralphm
Sorry I didn't come by last weekend. How was t-dose?
Guus
ralphm: uneventful, sadly.
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ralphm
Right. They have never seemed to live up to their goal of being a bit like FOSDEM-in-the-fall. Too bad.
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Holger
Ugh, WTF.
Holger
I don't think "what the fuck is this?" was even remotely meant to be a provocation.
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Holger
I mean I can't speak for zinid but this quite obviously reads like "what on earth is this Euro-millions thing?" to me.
Holger
And I'm not sure he called an individual an idiot.
ralphm
If it was just that, it would be just fine. I say things like that all the time
SamWhited
He's called multiple people idiots and been asked to stop, though he might not have used those words this time.
Holger
Aha.
Guus
Holger: I only asked him to be civil, and stopped when he made clear he had no intention.
Guus
I've made a point of not escalate things. Sadly, that did not work.
Holger
I see him using flippant slang. As for the substance, I see him ranting against how this community does things. I totally understand how he won't make friends that way.
Guus
I'm perfectly fine with arguments and dont mind expletives at all - but I do think it's important to have civil discourse.
Holger
But I won't agree with this as a reason for a ban.
SamWhited
He was asked to stop multiple times by different people including Guus, me, George, and probably others and only responded with abuse. Then someone who actually has authority politely warned him and he still didn't listen, I'm not sure what else there is to do besides a ban.
SamWhited
If he tells a new person that their spec or ideas are garbage they're not likely to come back; no community needs that kind of toxic behavior, no matter how smart the person is.
ralphm
Holger: just read back the logs for a few days. He's more than welcome if he can behave like a normal person.
ralphm
I'm going for some sleep now.
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Guus
Goodnight
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Holger
SamWhited: Yes, different people use different tone, and asking them to change it tends to not work that well in my experience.
Holger
How many days of backlog am I supposed to read to find the reason for the ban? I skimmed through November now. I found some purely technical comments on various details, some ranting on MIX, EXI, Twitter, Java, the XSF membership/council election process, and our priorities. I guess I overlooked something.
Holger
Whatever, this is your show, I'm not even a member. I'll shut up.