XSF Discussion - 2017-11-24

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03:09:44 Link Mauve Ge0rG, and everyone else, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=Easy_Group_Chats&curid=12&diff=9796&oldid=18
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05:52:31 zinid MattJ: nobody has stolen your approach, you don't have it implemented
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07:30:33 jonasw Link Mauve, +1
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07:31:11 jonasw I still have no good idea how to glue all the layers together in my client to actaully be able to implement that chain of fallbacks :/
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07:33:59 zinid my thoughts exactly when I try to implement new cool xmpp things: calling hooks in unexpected places is annoying
07:34:27 zinid for example, dealing with messages forks and carbons is a nightmare
07:34:46 jonasw zinid, you should involve yourself in the Message Routing 2.0 discussion, if you aren’t already
07:34:52 jonasw things might in fact get simpler
07:35:21 jonasw I always wonder whether this perceived complexity is from my inexperience with 1Mloc+ projects or if this is specific to the IM domain or if this is specific to the XMPP domain
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07:36:42 zinid I think that's because of paradigms change
07:36:57 jonasw you mean existing code having hardship with adapting to the new situations?
07:36:59 zinid we used to have simple chatting where you don't need to *synchronize*
07:37:07 zinid no, I mean IM paradigm
07:37:29 zinid now we face the problem which is in fact data *synchronization*
07:37:43 zinid take a look at mam and carbons
07:37:50 zinid those are clearly replica transfers
07:37:55 jonasw sure
07:38:11 zinid so I would suggest to implement this replica layer first
07:38:22 zinid but I have no idea how to make the transition :/
07:41:02 zinid I also think XML is not the best way to exchange replicas, lol
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07:43:12 zinid anyway, we can invent new and shiny IM 2.0, but how to make the transition?
07:43:25 zinid that's why I virtually don't discuss the topic
07:43:30 zinid I have no ideas
07:43:32 jonasw zinid, there have been very concrete proposals
07:43:57 zinid jonasw: I didn't find the solution with ancient servers
07:44:09 zinid I mean I didn't see such proposal
07:44:28 jonasw (using Bind 2.0 as a signal for "use IM 2.0 rules" and some s2s protocol to make serves negotiate that between them, PLUS and here’s where your ancient servers come into play, fallback to the existing Hints for Carbons and MAM by writing them explicitly into the messages when transferring to IM 1.0 domains)
07:45:05 zinid fuck yeah, much easier :D
07:45:18 jonasw much easier than what?
07:45:31 zinid [10:26:12] <jonasw> things might in fact get simpler
07:45:36 zinid what did you mean here? :)
07:45:57 zinid I see only more complexity, it looks for me new servers need to maintain old and new behaviour
07:46:01 jonasw zinid, inside the IM 2.0 domain, you’d see much simpler rules for archiving and carbons than what we currently have
07:47:29 zinid probably, but those rules still suck in the sense of replica synchronization
07:47:37 jonasw do they?
07:47:41 zinid for example eventual consistency is not guaranteed at all
07:47:45 jonasw isn’t its
07:47:47 jonasw isn’t it?
07:47:49 zinid you can lose messages easily
07:47:51 jonasw how?
07:47:55 zinid via s2s failures?
07:48:08 jonasw stream management?
07:48:17 zinid it doesn't solve all the problems
07:48:21 jonasw sure, but many
07:48:26 zinid no
07:48:38 zinid it doesn't solve a problem with server outage for significant time
07:48:40 jonasw and also, the current discussion is mostly about different clients on the same account
07:48:46 jonasw do you think it should be extended to different accounts?
07:48:47 zinid typically the message is buffered for 5 minutes
07:49:04 jonasw on server outage with significant time I’d expect message loss, it’s as simple as that
07:49:07 zinid yes, I know what about the current discussion ;)
07:49:20 jonasw the sender would get an error back, it’s a rather clear situation?
07:49:44 zinid jonasw: well, I have quite some experiences in database design and I would say consistency should be guaranteed even with huge outage
07:50:10 zinid jonasw: yes, it will receive error back, then what? the recipient loses the message forever
07:50:42 jonasw it is clear to the sender that the recipient has never seen the message
07:50:55 jonasw or that the message was never even sent
07:51:02 zinid yeah, that's not how eventual consistency works ;)
07:51:03 jonasw I find it consistent.
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07:51:19 jonasw both nodes end up to "know" the "message was not sent" state
07:51:21 zinid you face inconsistent state and you need to resolve it *eventually*
07:51:30 jonasw (the sender explicitly by seeing the error, the recipient implicitly by not seeing the message)
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07:51:55 zinid no, recipient node might know jack shit
07:52:23 zinid due to unexpected failures
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07:52:31 zinid this is acceptable in p2p computing for example
07:52:40 zinid and is tolerated
07:52:43 zinid but not in xmpp ;)
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07:58:00 zinid distributed databases even have anti-entropy technics to deal with rotten bits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_rot), but let's say we don't need this in xmpp (at least so far)
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08:00:19 zinid I find matrix approach very decent in this regard, however their use of http polling and json is annoying
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08:05:25 Holger Exactly.
08:06:50 zinid yeah, the idea is great, implementation is shit
08:07:24 zinid I still think servers should not replicate, it should be done peer-to-peer
08:07:46 zinid servers could maintain replicas, but this is not required
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08:11:07 Holger The replicas are just caches in Matrix I think. At least I don't see why servers couldn't just ditch and later re-fetch them.
08:11:36 zinid probably, I don't know all the details
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08:14:23 zinid but look, this is much easier to fetch replicas p2p: when you become available you ask for replicas of your contacts (possessing the last seen message id)
08:14:32 zinid you don't even need stream management queues for this
08:14:57 jonasw except that you wouldn’t want your phone to drain its battery on syncing other peoples messages
08:15:30 zinid jonasw: yes, so replication servers are needed, so they can reply to such replica requests by themselves (without client involvement)
08:15:55 jonasw at which point you’re ditching the p2p approach and we’re kind-of back to "ask for MAM on your server"
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08:16:14 zinid no, I can disable this feature on my server
08:17:15 zinid but this can be implemented via MAM, yes
08:17:30 zinid we already have this for groupchats
08:17:38 zinid why contacts are different?
08:17:52 jonasw see above?
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08:18:15 zinid what exactly do you mean? MAM should be considered as just another replica or cache
08:18:24 jonasw I mean the power consumption issue.
08:18:26 zinid of course there can be tons of replicas, so?
08:18:48 zinid what issue if you ask your server to maintain replicas?
08:18:49 jonasw I don’t see how that would work, discovery and security-wise.
08:19:01 jonasw I don’t have any issue with that, it is simply MAM
08:19:13 zinid I don't find it less secure than current approach
08:19:20 jonasw anyways, gotta go, I already typed too much today (hand injury) :(
08:19:44 zinid jonasw: this is kinda "enchanced" mam :)
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11:17:43 Link Mauve “07:54:06 jonasw> on server outage with significant time I’d expect message loss, it’s as simple as that”, people coming from email would be sad to hear that, it’s been a solved problem for a long time there.
11:18:08 jonasw Link Mauve, when you have a long outage, emails will bounce just like IM messages do
11:18:27 jonasw the term "long" is relative and may be different for IM and Email
11:19:50 Zash It's *Instant* Messaging after all
11:23:10 zinid Zash: nah, it's data replication now, that's the problem
11:23:25 Zash Yeah :(
11:23:26 zinid and we're trying to solve this replication problem via IM
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11:25:01 Link Mauve Hence the huge whiteboard I’ve been promised for years. :(
11:25:18 jonasw FOSDEM?
11:25:35 Zash Yes! Brussels 2018 - The Whiteboardening
11:25:48 jonasw sounds like I really need to sort that out
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12:14:41 Link Mauve Let’s use Markdown! https://statuscode.ch/2017/11/from-markdown-to-rce-in-atom/
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12:21:29 jonasw ah, they failed to sanitize HTML :)
12:21:45 jonasw the HTML support in the markdown component is left enabled intentionally
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12:22:33 zinid html inside markdown looks like a really insane idea ;)
12:22:44 jonasw zinid, markdown is specified as an HTML superset, IIRC
12:22:45 Zash markdown is defined as a html superset
12:22:54 Zash too slow
12:23:14 zinid wat?
12:23:22 zinid a html superset?
12:23:26 jonasw yup
12:23:31 zinid what does that mean?
12:23:39 jonasw every valid HTML document is a valid markdown document
12:23:53 zinid oh shi~
12:24:00 jonasw (even though I’m not sure that’s actually true, there are probably some corner casesr
12:24:04 jonasw (even though I’m not sure that’s actually true, there are probably some corner cases)
12:24:07 jonasw but it’s intended to be that way
12:24:37 zinid actually, every text is a valid markdown document, no?
12:24:42 jonasw yes
12:24:53 zinid so markdown is a text superset, okay
12:25:02 jonasw but the semantics of a valid html document interpreted as markdown are the same of the html docmuent interpreted as html
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12:28:56 zinid nevertheless, the article is interesting
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13:18:10 jonasw I wonder what those german guys asking about XEP-0392 are about.
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13:19:47 daniel jonasw, what do you mean? that's the jsxc developer
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13:20:05 daniel the client that is mostly known for its integration into nextcloud
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13:20:43 jonasw daniel, and the other three?
13:20:44 jonasw *two
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13:21:10 daniel christian schudt is the babbler developer
13:21:16 jonasw (not saying that it’s a bad thing or something, I was just wondering why suddenly)
13:21:20 jonasw you know people, it’s scary
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13:21:23 daniel and klaus herberth is i believe also jsxc
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13:22:01 jonasw yeah, Klaus Herberth has jsxc in his mail adress, so I assumed you were talking about him when referring to "the jsxc developer"
13:22:55 daniel I see. I was originially talking about marcel because that's the first email i saw
13:23:05 jonasw ah ok
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13:28:13 daniel Fwiw I don't know any of these people. I just know of them. Babbler is super awesome.
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13:52:03 pep. jonasw, https://ppjet.bouah.net/poezio-colors.png one use case of why using the bare JID for colors is meh
13:52:27 pep. nick would be better in that case. These are all IRC users, going through a bridge (Gluttony)
13:52:35 mathieui pep., jonasw already said it on the list
13:52:43 pep. Ah I have to catch up
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14:03:20 zinid too many germans in jabber
14:03:35 mathieui says the russian
14:03:55 Zash too many humans
14:05:21 zinid mathieui: russians in jabber can only write spam bots and talk shit, mostly ;)
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18:10:15 Flow daniel, do you want a MAM namespace bump?
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18:11:12 daniel Flow: no?!
18:11:30 Flow or, in other words, isn't a MAM namespace bump required for your proposed excluded-types?
18:13:13 Flow or is the service required to return an error on unknown fields? which would be good I think
18:14:03 daniel Flow, i think the additional filter thingy is off the table anyway
18:14:23 daniel we just gonna adjust the rules
18:14:38 Flow ohh :( I like the idea of additional flexible filters which are discoverable
18:15:14 daniel Flow, custom filters are already part of the protocol
18:15:18 Flow and not specified in xep313
18:15:33 Ge0rG what about making MAM responses type=headline?
18:15:51 Ge0rG Aaaand changing the default configuration to "N/A"
18:15:56 Flow daniel, right, but there is currently no specification for message type filters
18:16:28 Flow Ge0rG, I can't follow, but it's likely because it has been a long week
18:17:02 Flow I believe that MAM archives should be allowed to also archive groupchat messages FWIW
18:17:02 daniel if they were specified they wouldn't be custom, no?
18:17:34 Ge0rG Flow: type=headline would better reflect the ephemeral status of MAM responses, and the rationale for "N/A" is in https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-November/033762.html (c)
18:18:04 Ge0rG Flow: why do you believe that way?
18:18:52 Flow daniel, probably, but does not matter, I want a mandatory set of filter mechanism which can be extended by discoverable additional filters, so that we can experiment which filters are a good idea and which are unnecessary
18:18:57 daniel Ge0rG, am i reading this mail correctly you are planning to come to the summit?
18:19:13 Flow Ge0rG, most for the same reasons that Kev said
18:19:25 Ge0rG Flow: I disagree with Kev on that.
18:19:50 Ge0rG daniel: I can't promise that.
18:19:56 Ge0rG I really can't.
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18:21:20 Flow Ge0rG, My vision is to give MAM services maximal freedom regarding what to archive, and clients should be given the filtering mechanisms they need
18:21:44 Ge0rG Flow: what about using a separate XEP for all of that?
18:22:04 Flow Ge0rG, for the f
18:22:12 Flow iltering mechs?
18:22:29 Flow (the optinal filtering mechs)
18:22:30 Zash What gets stored should be up to server policy. What gets can be described by a XEP
18:22:32 Ge0rG Flow: no, for things that go beyond normal im client message archival.
18:22:55 Ge0rG Zash: implementation defied!!!!
18:22:56 Flow Ge0rG, wouldn't that be an MAM alternative?
18:23:20 Ge0rG Flow: what about using the same backend storage but not return everything to normal MAM requests?
18:24:07 Flow Ge0rG, if you still have the possiblity to return groupchat and probably all other types of messages, then that would be fine in my book
18:24:28 Flow err, to return if the client asked for it
18:24:46 Ge0rG Flow: the server is free to store anything it wants, as longs as it only returns what's written in MAM on a normal MAM query
18:24:51 daniel Flow, it's not my XEP; i could live with the filtering on query proposal. (also I believe storing groupchat in the personal archive has downsides that make it not really fit for use). I believe existing implementations would ignore unknown form fields. thus introducing new ones could be done without a NS bump
18:26:14 daniel so to answer you question no I'm not planning a NS bump. I'm not planning anything
18:26:39 Flow daniel, guess my initial question was if you think that your proposal 2) would require a NS bump
18:27:24 Flow I'm not sure if the service ignoring unknown fields means that you can avoid a namespace bump
18:28:02 Ge0rG really, let's get rid of namespace bumps altogether.
18:28:18 daniel i generally tend to be on the rather not bump if it doesn't cause issues with existing implementations faction
18:28:39 Flow Yeah for unexpected behavior
18:28:43 Ge0rG I'm sure it's possible to replace almost every ns bump with a feature.
18:29:04 Flow Ge0rG, well then it's ok
18:29:17 Ge0rG but in this specific case, I don't want to extend MAM.
18:29:19 daniel but existing implementations need to change anway because they a) need to start actutally storing groupchats b) add a database field for the type to make the query efficent
18:30:45 Ge0rG are there provisions in MAM to full-body-search for messages?
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18:31:17 Flow Ge0rG, I don't think so
18:31:37 Ge0rG Flow: so what's your use case again?
18:32:01 Flow And while at it, I want to point out that K9 did for years client local searches. It took a while until they implemented server side IMAP searches
18:32:47 Ge0rG Flow: that's actually an argument against gc in mam
18:34:18 Flow No, it's just an observation regarding the importance of a server side search feature
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18:37:53 daniel Flow, maybe make your argument for groupchat in the user archive on the list
18:38:10 Ge0rG yes please
18:38:13 daniel not sure if the relevant people are following this discussion
18:38:19 daniel in here
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18:40:44 zinid seems like the list = this room
18:40:49 zinid all the same people around
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18:41:33 daniel zinid, i'm not sure people read the backlog here. i certainly don't
18:41:34 Ge0rG zinid: there is a formal difference.
18:41:51 Ge0rG zinid: Council needs to catch up on standards@
18:42:01 zinid daniel: I'm reading backlog when I have nothing to do ;)
18:42:13 zinid daniel: actually I rant here only when I'm bored :)
18:42:38 Ge0rG zinid: then it looks like you need a {boy,girl,other}friend
18:44:17 zinid Ge0rG: nah thanks, I'm good with my wife and son
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18:56:39 Guus when is that lottery drawing?
18:56:55 Guus which was it again
18:56:59 Guus euro something?
18:58:25 Ge0rG Guus: https://www.euro-millions.com/results
18:58:37 Guus tx
18:58:46 Guus no results yet
18:59:01 Zash 41 minutes?
18:59:15 Guus ah, 21 CET (that's in an hour)
18:59:19 Ge0rG Now I wonder if somebody can hack that web page.
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19:03:29 zinid what the fuck is this?
19:05:31 Guus zinid, could you be more specific and less explicit please?
19:05:53 Guus crap, crying kid, afk
19:08:39 zinid Guus: no
19:08:48 zinid other questions?
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19:12:37 Guus It wasn't a question, it was a request: please act in a civil manner here - it makes for a better atmosphere, which helps us to achieve more.
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19:27:20 zinid Guus: I act as I want, stop teaching me, I really don't care how you think one should act
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19:32:12 Guus zinid: I'm sorry to hear that.
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19:33:06 zinid Yeah, people have different views, deal with it 😀
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19:35:04 zinid Really, if you cannot tolerate words like crap or shit you're better off not using internet
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19:49:52 Ge0rG zinid: this place is not made for your crap and shit, but for constructive discussions in the context of XMPP. There are plenty of other places on the internet where you can behave like an a*hole and make friends that way...
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19:52:28 zinid Ge0rG: oh, I started to think you will not chime in 😂
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20:01:26 Ge0rG zinid: I've got a decade worth of channel operator experience in Germany's worst IRCNet channel, I have a sixth sense for trolling time... 😜
20:03:13 Guus In other news: the Euro-millions draw is in progress!
20:03:17 Guus animated gifs and all!
20:03:50 Guus I'll give calculation a shot, but it'd be good to have someone else verify my results.
20:04:08 Guus (although technically, Alex will probably sign-off anyway?)
20:04:11 zinid Ge0rG: so euro millions is a constructive discussion?
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20:04:51 zinid "in the context of XMPP"
20:05:01 Guus zinid: ah, that's were you were getting at earlier. Yes, it is, actually.
20:05:33 Guus the board member vote were in a tie. The tie-breaker is a procedure that takes the outcome off this euro millions draw.
20:06:17 zinid I didn't get anything
20:06:36 zinid tie, producer, draw, wtf
20:07:50 zinid ah, procedure
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20:08:31 Guus "that's where you were getting at" <-- I now understand the confusion.
20:08:48 zinid I'm so excited, much wow
20:09:11 Guus most background is here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2017-November/008695.html
20:11:04 zinid not interested, I don't care about your policy and your invented rules
20:11:27 zinid I'm interested in standards
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20:12:12 Guus suit yourself. We can definately use your help with the standards!
20:12:14 zinid whoever you will elect, jabber will continue degrading, I'm 99% sure
20:13:13 zinid Guus: I don't write documents, too much effort, 95% of time I will spend with english-russian dictionary
20:13:31 zinid or russian-english, whatever ;)
20:15:51 Guus Don't worry, there are lots of ways you can help out with the standards that don't require writing stuff down.
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20:22:20 zinid this looks like a sect
20:24:28 Ge0rG zinid: people are having fun with technical protocols to ensure fairness of an election. If you compare that to elections in the USA, where districts are rebuilt to optimize vote results, or your country, where the president gets elected with 115%, it's a really great process... 😝
20:24:46 Guus Nah. We're all friends. Here, have a sip of my kool-aid.
20:26:37 zinid Ge0rG: not sure what technical protocols you mean. like your election bot, lol?
20:26:53 Ge0rG Guus: that's what Jim Jones said...
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20:28:12 Ge0rG zinid: if you weren't so busy cursing, you'd already know
20:29:24 zinid yeah, if I was interested
20:29:42 zinid but I don't give a shit, luckily ;)
20:31:40 Ge0rG zinid: you are bored anyway, give it a try
20:34:06 Guus Results are in! By my calcultion: 19 - 24 - 28 - 30 - 50 -> 19.24.28.30.50./ -> f2507b627edc74d540e7cb747138ed7ee8e19d4458f9db5bfd3a92b5c97a9541 -> Nÿco
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22:02:53 ralphm zinid: if you can't be bothered to behave like a normal person, please leave. I'm serious.
22:04:24 zinid ralphm: who are you?
22:04:51 ralphm I'm the XSF Chair
22:05:02 zinid wow
22:06:08 zinid what if I tell no?
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22:09:40 ralphm I'm not sure what your thing is, but I've been getting complaints. We like this community to be inclusive and I don't appreciate our hospitality to be abused. By asking such a question, it appears that you don't care. If I'm wrong about this, please let me know.
22:10:56 zinid yeah, I already understood that you build only the community you like, people who you like to see, without any technical merits
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22:11:13 zinid so how far did this policy bring you?
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22:11:35 zinid xmpp is a degrading protocol which is nobody want to implement and even here about
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22:11:45 ralphm Feel free to leave if you think we are doomed
22:11:54 zinid nah, I like here
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22:19:57 ralphm Well, good. We welcome discussions on technical matters, in a civilized matter. It may all be funny for you to repeat how bad you think the protocol, our procedures, or the people in our community are. I don't find it acceptable. If you insist on keeping that up, I will simply remove you from the XSF maintained venues like this room.
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22:22:01 zinid ralphm: why don't you remove yourself? I don't even know you, what did you do for xmpp? I don't remember you discussing the protocol. Why do you have power to remove developers from this room?
22:26:18 ralphm I'd you can't be bothered to even look that up, that's on you. This room is hosted by the XMPP Standards Foundation. I'm its Chairman. It's pretty much similar to how I would throw out a guest in my house if he starts bothering the other guests.
22:27:20 zinid ralphm: ah, so you're a boss here
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22:28:14 ralphm If you need that kind of confirmation, yes.
22:29:11 zinid ralphm: so your task is to ban developers you don't like, boss?
22:30:29 ralphm zinid: yes. Bye.
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22:37:12 Steve Kille ralphm: good job!
22:37:54 ralphm I had one job, I guess.
22:38:18 Steve Kille some things the world can do without
22:39:44 ralphm I can only hope he fairs better in other settings, so banning him from the world seemed excessive. For now.
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22:41:00 ralphm Fares, even. Yay auto-correct.
22:42:31 Guus To bad it came to this. Always feels like a loss to me.
22:43:25 Guus Not sure what the provocation was about.
22:44:15 SamWhited It doesn't take much provocation to make him try to insult you. It would be more of a loss if new people see that kind of abuse and don't get involved because he'll just call them an idiot.
22:46:02 ralphm I've had multiple complaints, and I'd like to think I'm a reasonable and generally nice guy. I also read back some previous discussions. Before, other people asked nicely. I did a final attempt. He keeps on trolling. Fine.
22:48:21 ralphm I've suggested improvements to other people before, and those people have changed their ways. I can sometimes be annoyed, but this is simply intentionally riling up people, and I don't think we need to tolerate this.
22:48:48 Guus Oh, I didn't want to to imply you were unreasonable.
22:49:19 ralphm Good. You are actually close-by.
22:50:01 Guus Close-by?
22:50:22 ralphm Physically close. As in within a few kilometers.
22:51:03 ralphm Sorry I didn't come by last weekend. How was t-dose?
22:51:39 Guus ralphm: uneventful, sadly.
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22:52:57 ralphm Right. They have never seemed to live up to their goal of being a bit like FOSDEM-in-the-fall. Too bad.
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23:08:03 Holger Ugh, WTF.
23:08:59 Holger I don't think "what the fuck is this?" was even remotely meant to be a provocation.
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23:10:30 Holger I mean I can't speak for zinid but this quite obviously reads like "what on earth is this Euro-millions thing?" to me.
23:11:10 Holger And I'm not sure he called an individual an idiot.
23:11:18 ralphm If it was just that, it would be just fine. I say things like that all the time
23:11:56 SamWhited He's called multiple people idiots and been asked to stop, though he might not have used those words this time.
23:12:13 Holger Aha.
23:17:14 Guus Holger: I only asked him to be civil, and stopped when he made clear he had no intention.
23:19:44 Guus I've made a point of not escalate things. Sadly, that did not work.
23:21:10 Holger I see him using flippant slang. As for the substance, I see him ranting against how this community does things. I totally understand how he won't make friends that way.
23:22:03 Guus I'm perfectly fine with arguments and dont mind expletives at all - but I do think it's important to have civil discourse.
23:22:05 Holger But I won't agree with this as a reason for a ban.
23:24:02 SamWhited He was asked to stop multiple times by different people including Guus, me, George, and probably others and only responded with abuse. Then someone who actually has authority politely warned him and he still didn't listen, I'm not sure what else there is to do besides a ban.
23:25:22 SamWhited If he tells a new person that their spec or ideas are garbage they're not likely to come back; no community needs that kind of toxic behavior, no matter how smart the person is.
23:27:06 ralphm Holger: just read back the logs for a few days. He's more than welcome if he can behave like a normal person.
23:27:30 ralphm I'm going for some sleep now.
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23:29:56 Guus Goodnight
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23:44:51 Holger SamWhited: Yes, different people use different tone, and asking them to change it tends to not work that well in my experience.
23:45:54 Holger How many days of backlog am I supposed to read to find the reason for the ban? I skimmed through November now. I found some purely technical comments on various details, some ranting on MIX, EXI, Twitter, Java, the XSF membership/council election process, and our priorities. I guess I overlooked something.
23:46:52 Holger Whatever, this is your show, I'm not even a member. I'll shut up.
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