XSF Discussion - 2017-11-29

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  86. Zash Ge0rG: No, no newlines in attributes.
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  94. jonasw Zash, works for me: >>> etree.fromstring("""<foo a='&#10;'/>""").get("a") '\n'
  95. Zash Didn't we go over whitespace rules recently?
  96. jonasw I don’t recall
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  98. Zash https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#AVNormalize
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  100. jonasw &#10; circumvents that I think
  101. Zash > =xml.parse[[<x y='&#10;'/>]] <x y=' '/>
  102. Zash Indeed
  103. jonasw > Note that if the unnormalized attribute value contains a character reference to a white space character other than space (#x20), the normalized value contains the referenced character itself (#xD, #xA or #x9). This contrasts with the case where the unnormalized value contains a white space character (not a reference), which is replaced with a space character (#x20) in the normalized value and also contrasts with the case where the unnormalized value contains an entity reference whose replacement text contains a white space character; being recursively processed, the white space character is replaced with a space character (#x20) in the normalized value.
  104. Ge0rG Zash: but in values you can have them.
  105. jonasw replacing the character reference wins over normalizsation to space
  106. Zash > return xml.parse(tostring(xml.parse("<x y='&#10;'/>"))) <x y=' '/>
  107. jonasw nice
  108. jonasw that should probably not happen
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  110. Zash Things broke when we escaped non-space whitespace.
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  125. jonasw which things?
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  134. Zash Things!
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  136. Zash Broke interop with M-Link IIRC
  137. jonasw even if only applied to attributes?
  138. Zash I don't recall the details
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  140. jonasw aioxmpp escapes newlines etc. in attributes and haven’t had issues with that yet
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  142. Flow jonasw, which xml API does aioxmpp use (if any)?
  143. jonasw Flow, for generation, we actually write XML ourselves. for parsing, it’s xml.sax, which is backed by expat in CPython.
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  145. jonasw (the custom writer implements a SAX interface, but with some goodies which were hard to achieve with xml.sax, see <https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/internal/xml.html#aioxmpp.xml.XMPPXMLGenerator>)
  146. jonasw mostly about encoding, namespaces (and prefixes) and strictness.
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  151. Flow jonasw, so does aioxmpp do the escaping or does it happen under the hood of the XML API?
  152. jonasw let me check, IIRC we invoke some xml.foo method
  153. jonasw yeah, xml.sax.saxutils.quoteattr -> libexpat on CPython
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  155. Flow fetches the lastest aioxmpp git
  156. Flow wauza, 75% of aioxmpp's SLOCs are tests. repspect jonasw
  157. jonasw thank you :)
  158. mathieui yeah
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  197. jonasw edhelas, around?
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  201. jonasw Guus, is there a way you could give powers to (only) cancel (only) the xeps docker builds?
  202. jonasw (you, or any iteam member really)
  203. Guus jonasw: unlikely
  204. jonasw pity
  205. jonasw too late now anyways
  206. Guus the access control is not very fine-grained
  207. Guus read/write/admin on a repo level, that's all I can find.
  208. jonasw okay, nevermind then. I’ll just try to make sure that I only need one push then :)
  209. Guus jonasw: perhaps you can shorten the build duration somehow?
  210. Guus that'd reduce the impact
  211. jonasw the PDF build takes ages, I don’t think we can do anything about that
  212. jonasw if we had incremental builds, that’d be amazing too, but I think that’s not possible with dockerhub
  213. jonasw or maybe even docker in general
  214. Guus isn't the entire concept of docker hub that you base images on eachother?
  215. jonasw I don’t think that we can reasonably base on the previous build, can we?
  216. Guus I don't know
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  219. Kev Not reasonably, no.
  220. Kev And the idea is that you build up layers, yes, but not generally diffs between multiple versions of the same image.
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  223. jonasw hm, would write access allow me to break things which I can’t break anyways by pushing to the xeps repository?
  224. Guus as you're an editor, I'm unsure if you shouldn't be allowed to do more damage anyways
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  226. Guus there's actually an 'editors' team there
  227. Guus Kev, any good reason why editors shouldn't be part of that editor team on docker hub?
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  229. Guus it now has Kev and Sam
  230. Kev Don't think so.
  231. Guus jonasw - can you share your dockerhub accountname?
  232. jonasw xsfjonas
  233. jonasw sweet
  234. Guus hocus, pokus, pilatus, pas...
  235. jonasw thanks :)
  236. Guus no problem
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  264. edhelas jonasw pong
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  266. jonasw edhelas, I used "jt" as initials for your change, I hope that’s okay.
  267. edhelas ah yeah, that was that :D
  268. edhelas is there a place where this jt alias is defined ?
  269. jonasw no
  270. jonasw unfortunately not
  271. jonasw I feel we should maybe move from "initials" to "handles"
  272. jonasw initials have low entropy, are prone to collisions, and aren’t used anywhere else in the community, making them hard to resolve
  273. edhelas I thought that people that participate will appears in Acknowledgements
  274. jonasw not unless you add yourself, I don’t think that’s the editors task. maybe.
  275. jonasw (if it is, my apologies)
  276. edhelas eheh, we should clarify that :p
  277. jonasw I think the Ack seciton is pretty much at the authors discretion
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  279. edhelas okay
  280. edhelas maybe point all those initials to https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html with an anchor ?
  281. edhelas ah, this list can be cleaned up as well, which can break links… mhhh
  282. jonasw also, you don’t need to be a member to contribute to a XEP
  283. edhelas true
  284. Ge0rG edhelas: the members list is much more dynamic than the XEP history
  285. jonasw I’m looking forward to the fun of a name change.
  286. edhelas eheh
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  288. edhelas whatever, having pubsub#max_items will now allow us to move forward regarding the PEP support on the servers
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  290. jonasw :)
  291. jonasw sorry for the delay, I forgot this existed and council voted on it :(
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  344. jonasw I note that the log timestamps on http://logs.xmpp.org/council/2017-11-29#15:55:08 are off by a few minutes
  345. jonasw I think five
  346. jonasw cc @ iteam
  347. jonasw intosi, MattJ maybe?
  348. MattJ We'll need to figure out if there is a docker image for ntp, or make one
  349. MattJ (only joking)
  350. MattJ (I think)
  351. jonasw please be.
  352. Ge0rG jonasw: re 0392, "Treat the output as little endian and extract the last-significant 16 bits." - "least-significant" and I'm currently questioning whether it's a signed or an unsigned 16 bit number.
  353. intosi MattJ: right
  354. intosi Or we might've forgotten we actually care about time, and didn't bother installing ntpd ;)
  355. intosi Fixed
  356. dwd intosi, I'm glad you found the time.
  357. intosi dwd: fixed with minutes to spare.
  358. jonasw Ge0rG, unsigned
  359. Ge0rG jonasw: or maybe it doesn't matter at all?
  360. Ge0rG unsigned shorts are a real pita in Java :>
  361. jonasw Ge0rG, it matters, I think
  362. Ge0rG jonasw: "Divide the value by 65536" - shouldn't that be 65535?
  363. jonasw no
  364. jonasw we don’t want to reach 1.0
  365. jonasw because that’s equal to 0.0
  366. jonasw (in the circle)
  367. moparisthebest openntpd seems to be a better choice for just keeping time correct, imho
  368. Ge0rG jonasw: great!
  369. jonasw (I got that wrong at first, Marcus pointed it out on standards@)
  370. jonasw *Marcel
  371. jonasw damn, I got that wrong in the acks
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  374. jonasw Ge0rG, is yaxim about to get XEP-0392 support? :)
  375. jonasw if so, make it so that conversations can steal it :)
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  379. MattJ Conversations stealing code from Yaxim, that'll be the day
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  382. Zash -xep 392
  383. Bunneh Zash: Consistent Color Generation (Standards Track, Experimental, 2017-11-29) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0392.html
  384. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm working on 0392, yes.
  385. edhelas wow this XEP
  386. mathieui edhelas, you haven’t implemented it yet?? even poezio has it
  387. jonasw *cough*
  388. MattJ I think it's a well-produced XEP, but really seems like a lot of fuss over something so trivial
  389. edhelas mathieui wan't to compare sizes of our implemented XEP list ?
  390. jonasw MattJ, I’m sorry :-)
  391. mathieui edhelas, no thanks :D
  392. MattJ I really don't care that much what colours people show up as
  393. MattJ Seems many people do...
  394. edhelas mathieui SIMS implemented ? :-°
  395. Ge0rG MattJ: the important thing is not that all clients show the same color but rather that the palette has good readability
  396. jonasw the palette stuff blew it ub much
  397. jonasw the palette stuff blew it up much
  398. jonasw (with "palette stuff" I mean mapping to discrete color palettes, like terminal clients do)
  399. Zash Seems weird to me to specify as a protocol tho.
  400. jonasw I wonder if it would’ve been more suited for Informational track, but i don’t care :)
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  402. jonasw (given that we’d want to have this under rather strict change control once it becomes widespread, Standards Track is probably sane)
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  404. edhelas meanwhile in Movim https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/master/app/helpers/StringHelper.php#L312 :D
  405. edhelas the thing is that I'm following the default colors of Material design
  406. edhelas so I'm wondering how this will fit with this XEP
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  408. jonasw edhelas, the XEP allows you to use a palette
  409. jonasw there’s a large section on that
  410. Ge0rG the Android avatar palette has eight predefined colors or something
  411. jonasw but I would suggest to not do that and instead use the colors generated by the XEP.
  412. daniel jonasw, using a palette won't distribute the colors equaly on that palette though, or will it?
  413. SamWhited I think this XEP was very well thought out and written, but I can't see it being widely used. It's just too much complexity, and too large to implement easily when instead I could just do what edhelas has
  414. jonasw daniel, it will do that only if the palette is itself equally distributed
  415. daniel yes... i'm afraid it won't work for me then. i mean i'll happily give it a try if Ge0rG writes the code
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  417. daniel but i really want to keep my color palette
  418. jonasw SamWhited, the gist of it is pretty much angle = sha1(text)[:2] / 65536 * 2π; cr = sin(angle); cb = cos(angle); and three formulas to convert cr and cb to rgb. maybe it’d help if there was a single block at the beginning which lists that and save the details for later below?
  419. jonasw daniel, why though?
  420. daniel jonasw, why i want to keep my palette?
  421. jonasw yes
  422. daniel because i want them to fit into the platform
  423. intosi daniel: +1 :)
  424. edhelas daniel maybe we can have the same palette, we are both using Material Design colors :)
  425. jonasw daniel, I *assume* that most such palettes are rather equally distributed
  426. jonasw if you have the rgb values for them, I’d be happy to check that
  427. edhelas will introduce XEP-XXXX Material Design color palette
  428. SamWhited jonasw: that might help, but it will still be a very long complicated XEP, and if I can implement it from just that section why is the rest needed?
  429. daniel jonasw, https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/blob/master/src/main/java/eu/siacs/conversations/utils/UIHelper.java#L35
  430. Guus Potential board meeting time. Who is here?
  431. jonasw SamWhited, special cases (like if you’re restricted to a palette), precision of the description to avoid ambiguities, and color vision deficiency correction
  432. jonasw daniel, thanks
  433. jonasw daniel, is that ARGB or ABGR?
  434. daniel argb
  435. jonasw I could’ve guessed.
  436. dwd Argh, maybe.
  437. Guus Nyco, Ralphm, MattJ, Martin - does board meet now?
  438. MattJ I was guessing not, because you said you couldn't make it
  439. Martin I'm here, but wasn't sure if the mailing list thread flattened it
  440. Guus Wednesdays are very inconvenient. Parking lots, laptops in cars, no heating, and roaming is typically invovled
  441. Guus as we didn't agree on a new time, I thought I'd check in now.
  442. Guus fwiw, 2:30pm-3:00pm GMT every Thursday works for me - as suggested on the mailing list - but there's no point in agreeing between the three of us, without Ralphm and Nyco.
  443. MattJ Indeed
  444. ralphm I am good with that
  445. MattJ nyco, around?
  446. Guus well, we have quorum now - shall we start a meeting now? We can finalize the scheduling once nyco pitches in.
  447. MattJ wfm
  448. Guus ralph, do you want to take the lead? You make for a comfortable chair :)
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  450. Guus ralphm ^ ?
  451. Guus bangs a gavel
  452. ralphm Well, I thought it would be very weird to have a meeting without an agreed time
  453. Guus unbangs a gavel
  454. ralphm First order of business is that we choose a chair and I think we should all be there
  455. Guus I'm perfectly happy to continue with an acting chair for this meeting.
  456. Guus I do agree that choosing a chair should involve all of us
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  458. ralphm No need for an acting chair, I am still a proper one
  459. ralphm So, hoping that nyco will also agree upon the time, let's go for tomorrow 14:30 UTC
  460. Guus shrugs.
  461. Martin Sounds good to me
  462. Guus works for me
  463. Guus I think all of us are on the same DST switchover date, correct? if so, it'd make sense to anchor it to London time - to prevent a sudden shift twice a year?
  464. Guus as UTC is London time now, there's no immediate difference.
  465. MattJ Yes, sensible
  466. ralphm I'd be very happy to anchor to London
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  499. peter hey, today is my jabiversary: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/1999-November/060711.html :-)
  500. Ge0rG peter: congratulations! :)
  501. peter heh
  502. jonasw peter, nice, in two years we can celebrate your 20th :-)
  503. peter this is why they call me "Old Man Jabber" ;-)
  504. SamWhited Oh nice! Congrats indeed!
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  512. SouL Wow, suuuper nice, happy jabiversary :D
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  544. dwd In case anyone still thought the XSF was the weirdest standards org, the IETF has pressed its claim by publishing 18 versions of the DTLS spec within half an hour.
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  547. fippo dwd: how does that compare to BUNDLE with its 42 revisions?
  548. fippo granted, over the last five or six years
  549. intosi peter: congrats, you're now allowed to vote ;)
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  552. moparisthebest what, why (@18 DTLS versions)
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  556. zinid Who cares what IETF is doing, everyone is doing what Google does, what's good for Google bussiness
  557. zinid </rant>
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  572. jjrh Google employees participate in IETF standards. :P
  573. fippo google employees seem to ignore MUSTs in RFCs written by other google employees. Seems to be a big company.
  574. fippo dwd: ekr's response is the best...
  575. Zash dwd: wat, link?
  576. fippo zash: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg105575.html
  577. fippo zash: ietf-discuss is like hackernews for... old ppl?
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  581. jjrh I miss the days when slashdot actually had good news and comments that were insightful
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  593. peter If Brian Carpenter were paying attention to the TLS WG list, he would have known. (Although I still don't understand why ekr felt the need to do that.)
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