XSF Discussion - 2017-11-29

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  86. Zash

    Ge0rG: No, no newlines in attributes.

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  94. jonasw

    Zash, works for me: >>> etree.fromstring("""<foo a='&#10;'/>""").get("a") '\n'

  95. Zash

    Didn't we go over whitespace rules recently?

  96. jonasw

    I don’t recall

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  98. Zash


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  100. jonasw

    &#10; circumvents that I think

  101. Zash

    > =xml.parse[[<x y='&#10;'/>]] <x y=' '/>

  102. Zash


  103. jonasw

    > Note that if the unnormalized attribute value contains a character reference to a white space character other than space (#x20), the normalized value contains the referenced character itself (#xD, #xA or #x9). This contrasts with the case where the unnormalized value contains a white space character (not a reference), which is replaced with a space character (#x20) in the normalized value and also contrasts with the case where the unnormalized value contains an entity reference whose replacement text contains a white space character; being recursively processed, the white space character is replaced with a space character (#x20) in the normalized value.

  104. Ge0rG

    Zash: but in values you can have them.

  105. jonasw

    replacing the character reference wins over normalizsation to space

  106. Zash

    > return xml.parse(tostring(xml.parse("<x y='&#10;'/>"))) <x y=' '/>

  107. jonasw


  108. jonasw

    that should probably not happen

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  110. Zash

    Things broke when we escaped non-space whitespace.

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  125. jonasw

    which things?

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  134. Zash


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  136. Zash

    Broke interop with M-Link IIRC

  137. jonasw

    even if only applied to attributes?

  138. Zash

    I don't recall the details

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  140. jonasw

    aioxmpp escapes newlines etc. in attributes and haven’t had issues with that yet

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  142. Flow

    jonasw, which xml API does aioxmpp use (if any)?

  143. jonasw

    Flow, for generation, we actually write XML ourselves. for parsing, it’s xml.sax, which is backed by expat in CPython.

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  145. jonasw

    (the custom writer implements a SAX interface, but with some goodies which were hard to achieve with xml.sax, see <https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/internal/xml.html#aioxmpp.xml.XMPPXMLGenerator>)

  146. jonasw

    mostly about encoding, namespaces (and prefixes) and strictness.

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  151. Flow

    jonasw, so does aioxmpp do the escaping or does it happen under the hood of the XML API?

  152. jonasw

    let me check, IIRC we invoke some xml.foo method

  153. jonasw

    yeah, xml.sax.saxutils.quoteattr -> libexpat on CPython

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  155. Flow fetches the lastest aioxmpp git

  156. Flow

    wauza, 75% of aioxmpp's SLOCs are tests. repspect jonasw

  157. jonasw

    thank you :)

  158. mathieui


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  197. jonasw

    edhelas, around?

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  201. jonasw

    Guus, is there a way you could give powers to (only) cancel (only) the xeps docker builds?

  202. jonasw

    (you, or any iteam member really)

  203. Guus

    jonasw: unlikely

  204. jonasw


  205. jonasw

    too late now anyways

  206. Guus

    the access control is not very fine-grained

  207. Guus

    read/write/admin on a repo level, that's all I can find.

  208. jonasw

    okay, nevermind then. I’ll just try to make sure that I only need one push then :)

  209. Guus

    jonasw: perhaps you can shorten the build duration somehow?

  210. Guus

    that'd reduce the impact

  211. jonasw

    the PDF build takes ages, I don’t think we can do anything about that

  212. jonasw

    if we had incremental builds, that’d be amazing too, but I think that’s not possible with dockerhub

  213. jonasw

    or maybe even docker in general

  214. Guus

    isn't the entire concept of docker hub that you base images on eachother?

  215. jonasw

    I don’t think that we can reasonably base on the previous build, can we?

  216. Guus

    I don't know

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  219. Kev

    Not reasonably, no.

  220. Kev

    And the idea is that you build up layers, yes, but not generally diffs between multiple versions of the same image.

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  223. jonasw

    hm, would write access allow me to break things which I can’t break anyways by pushing to the xeps repository?

  224. Guus

    as you're an editor, I'm unsure if you shouldn't be allowed to do more damage anyways

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  226. Guus

    there's actually an 'editors' team there

  227. Guus

    Kev, any good reason why editors shouldn't be part of that editor team on docker hub?

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  229. Guus

    it now has Kev and Sam

  230. Kev

    Don't think so.

  231. Guus

    jonasw - can you share your dockerhub accountname?

  232. jonasw


  233. jonasw


  234. Guus

    hocus, pokus, pilatus, pas...

  235. jonasw

    thanks :)

  236. Guus

    no problem

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  264. edhelas

    jonasw pong

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  266. jonasw

    edhelas, I used "jt" as initials for your change, I hope that’s okay.

  267. edhelas

    ah yeah, that was that :D

  268. edhelas

    is there a place where this jt alias is defined ?

  269. jonasw


  270. jonasw

    unfortunately not

  271. jonasw

    I feel we should maybe move from "initials" to "handles"

  272. jonasw

    initials have low entropy, are prone to collisions, and aren’t used anywhere else in the community, making them hard to resolve

  273. edhelas

    I thought that people that participate will appears in Acknowledgements

  274. jonasw

    not unless you add yourself, I don’t think that’s the editors task. maybe.

  275. jonasw

    (if it is, my apologies)

  276. edhelas

    eheh, we should clarify that :p

  277. jonasw

    I think the Ack seciton is pretty much at the authors discretion

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  279. edhelas


  280. edhelas

    maybe point all those initials to https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html with an anchor ?

  281. edhelas

    ah, this list can be cleaned up as well, which can break links… mhhh

  282. jonasw

    also, you don’t need to be a member to contribute to a XEP

  283. edhelas


  284. Ge0rG

    edhelas: the members list is much more dynamic than the XEP history

  285. jonasw

    I’m looking forward to the fun of a name change.

  286. edhelas


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  288. edhelas

    whatever, having pubsub#max_items will now allow us to move forward regarding the PEP support on the servers

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  290. jonasw


  291. jonasw

    sorry for the delay, I forgot this existed and council voted on it :(

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  344. jonasw

    I note that the log timestamps on http://logs.xmpp.org/council/2017-11-29#15:55:08 are off by a few minutes

  345. jonasw

    I think five

  346. jonasw

    cc @ iteam

  347. jonasw

    intosi, MattJ maybe?

  348. MattJ

    We'll need to figure out if there is a docker image for ntp, or make one

  349. MattJ

    (only joking)

  350. MattJ

    (I think)

  351. jonasw

    please be.

  352. Ge0rG

    jonasw: re 0392, "Treat the output as little endian and extract the last-significant 16 bits." - "least-significant" and I'm currently questioning whether it's a signed or an unsigned 16 bit number.

  353. intosi

    MattJ: right

  354. intosi

    Or we might've forgotten we actually care about time, and didn't bother installing ntpd ;)

  355. intosi


  356. dwd

    intosi, I'm glad you found the time.

  357. intosi

    dwd: fixed with minutes to spare.

  358. jonasw

    Ge0rG, unsigned

  359. Ge0rG

    jonasw: or maybe it doesn't matter at all?

  360. Ge0rG

    unsigned shorts are a real pita in Java :>

  361. jonasw

    Ge0rG, it matters, I think

  362. Ge0rG

    jonasw: "Divide the value by 65536" - shouldn't that be 65535?

  363. jonasw


  364. jonasw

    we don’t want to reach 1.0

  365. jonasw

    because that’s equal to 0.0

  366. jonasw

    (in the circle)

  367. moparisthebest

    openntpd seems to be a better choice for just keeping time correct, imho

  368. Ge0rG

    jonasw: great!

  369. jonasw

    (I got that wrong at first, Marcus pointed it out on standards@)

  370. jonasw


  371. jonasw

    damn, I got that wrong in the acks

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  374. jonasw

    Ge0rG, is yaxim about to get XEP-0392 support? :)

  375. jonasw

    if so, make it so that conversations can steal it :)

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  379. MattJ

    Conversations stealing code from Yaxim, that'll be the day

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  382. Zash

    -xep 392

  383. Bunneh

    Zash: Consistent Color Generation (Standards Track, Experimental, 2017-11-29) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0392.html

  384. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'm working on 0392, yes.

  385. edhelas

    wow this XEP

  386. mathieui

    edhelas, you haven’t implemented it yet?? even poezio has it

  387. jonasw


  388. MattJ

    I think it's a well-produced XEP, but really seems like a lot of fuss over something so trivial

  389. edhelas

    mathieui wan't to compare sizes of our implemented XEP list ?

  390. jonasw

    MattJ, I’m sorry :-)

  391. mathieui

    edhelas, no thanks :D

  392. MattJ

    I really don't care that much what colours people show up as

  393. MattJ

    Seems many people do...

  394. edhelas

    mathieui SIMS implemented ? :-°

  395. Ge0rG

    MattJ: the important thing is not that all clients show the same color but rather that the palette has good readability

  396. jonasw

    the palette stuff blew it ub much

  397. jonasw

    the palette stuff blew it up much

  398. jonasw

    (with "palette stuff" I mean mapping to discrete color palettes, like terminal clients do)

  399. Zash

    Seems weird to me to specify as a protocol tho.

  400. jonasw

    I wonder if it would’ve been more suited for Informational track, but i don’t care :)

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  402. jonasw

    (given that we’d want to have this under rather strict change control once it becomes widespread, Standards Track is probably sane)

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  404. edhelas

    meanwhile in Movim https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/master/app/helpers/StringHelper.php#L312 :D

  405. edhelas

    the thing is that I'm following the default colors of Material design

  406. edhelas

    so I'm wondering how this will fit with this XEP

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  408. jonasw

    edhelas, the XEP allows you to use a palette

  409. jonasw

    there’s a large section on that

  410. Ge0rG

    the Android avatar palette has eight predefined colors or something

  411. jonasw

    but I would suggest to not do that and instead use the colors generated by the XEP.

  412. daniel

    jonasw, using a palette won't distribute the colors equaly on that palette though, or will it?

  413. SamWhited

    I think this XEP was very well thought out and written, but I can't see it being widely used. It's just too much complexity, and too large to implement easily when instead I could just do what edhelas has

  414. jonasw

    daniel, it will do that only if the palette is itself equally distributed

  415. daniel

    yes... i'm afraid it won't work for me then. i mean i'll happily give it a try if Ge0rG writes the code

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  417. daniel

    but i really want to keep my color palette

  418. jonasw

    SamWhited, the gist of it is pretty much angle = sha1(text)[:2] / 65536 * 2π; cr = sin(angle); cb = cos(angle); and three formulas to convert cr and cb to rgb. maybe it’d help if there was a single block at the beginning which lists that and save the details for later below?

  419. jonasw

    daniel, why though?

  420. daniel

    jonasw, why i want to keep my palette?

  421. jonasw


  422. daniel

    because i want them to fit into the platform

  423. intosi

    daniel: +1 :)

  424. edhelas

    daniel maybe we can have the same palette, we are both using Material Design colors :)

  425. jonasw

    daniel, I *assume* that most such palettes are rather equally distributed

  426. jonasw

    if you have the rgb values for them, I’d be happy to check that

  427. edhelas will introduce XEP-XXXX Material Design color palette

  428. SamWhited

    jonasw: that might help, but it will still be a very long complicated XEP, and if I can implement it from just that section why is the rest needed?

  429. daniel

    jonasw, https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/blob/master/src/main/java/eu/siacs/conversations/utils/UIHelper.java#L35

  430. Guus

    Potential board meeting time. Who is here?

  431. jonasw

    SamWhited, special cases (like if you’re restricted to a palette), precision of the description to avoid ambiguities, and color vision deficiency correction

  432. jonasw

    daniel, thanks

  433. jonasw

    daniel, is that ARGB or ABGR?

  434. daniel


  435. jonasw

    I could’ve guessed.

  436. dwd

    Argh, maybe.

  437. Guus

    Nyco, Ralphm, MattJ, Martin - does board meet now?

  438. MattJ

    I was guessing not, because you said you couldn't make it

  439. Martin

    I'm here, but wasn't sure if the mailing list thread flattened it

  440. Guus

    Wednesdays are very inconvenient. Parking lots, laptops in cars, no heating, and roaming is typically invovled

  441. Guus

    as we didn't agree on a new time, I thought I'd check in now.

  442. Guus

    fwiw, 2:30pm-3:00pm GMT every Thursday works for me - as suggested on the mailing list - but there's no point in agreeing between the three of us, without Ralphm and Nyco.

  443. MattJ


  444. ralphm

    I am good with that

  445. MattJ

    nyco, around?

  446. Guus

    well, we have quorum now - shall we start a meeting now? We can finalize the scheduling once nyco pitches in.

  447. MattJ


  448. Guus

    ralph, do you want to take the lead? You make for a comfortable chair :)

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  450. Guus

    ralphm ^ ?

  451. Guus bangs a gavel

  452. ralphm

    Well, I thought it would be very weird to have a meeting without an agreed time

  453. Guus unbangs a gavel

  454. ralphm

    First order of business is that we choose a chair and I think we should all be there

  455. Guus

    I'm perfectly happy to continue with an acting chair for this meeting.

  456. Guus

    I do agree that choosing a chair should involve all of us

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  458. ralphm

    No need for an acting chair, I am still a proper one

  459. ralphm

    So, hoping that nyco will also agree upon the time, let's go for tomorrow 14:30 UTC

  460. Guus shrugs.

  461. Martin

    Sounds good to me

  462. Guus

    works for me

  463. Guus

    I think all of us are on the same DST switchover date, correct? if so, it'd make sense to anchor it to London time - to prevent a sudden shift twice a year?

  464. Guus

    as UTC is London time now, there's no immediate difference.

  465. MattJ

    Yes, sensible

  466. ralphm

    I'd be very happy to anchor to London

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  499. peter

    hey, today is my jabiversary: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/1999-November/060711.html :-)

  500. Ge0rG

    peter: congratulations! :)

  501. peter


  502. jonasw

    peter, nice, in two years we can celebrate your 20th :-)

  503. peter

    this is why they call me "Old Man Jabber" ;-)

  504. SamWhited

    Oh nice! Congrats indeed!

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  512. SouL

    Wow, suuuper nice, happy jabiversary :D

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  544. dwd

    In case anyone still thought the XSF was the weirdest standards org, the IETF has pressed its claim by publishing 18 versions of the DTLS spec within half an hour.

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  547. fippo

    dwd: how does that compare to BUNDLE with its 42 revisions?

  548. fippo

    granted, over the last five or six years

  549. intosi

    peter: congrats, you're now allowed to vote ;)

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  552. moparisthebest

    what, why (@18 DTLS versions)

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  556. zinid

    Who cares what IETF is doing, everyone is doing what Google does, what's good for Google bussiness

  557. zinid


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  572. jjrh

    Google employees participate in IETF standards. :P

  573. fippo

    google employees seem to ignore MUSTs in RFCs written by other google employees. Seems to be a big company.

  574. fippo

    dwd: ekr's response is the best...

  575. Zash

    dwd: wat, link?

  576. fippo

    zash: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg105575.html

  577. fippo

    zash: ietf-discuss is like hackernews for... old ppl?

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  581. jjrh

    I miss the days when slashdot actually had good news and comments that were insightful

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  593. peter

    If Brian Carpenter were paying attention to the TLS WG list, he would have known. (Although I still don't understand why ekr felt the need to do that.)

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