XSF Discussion - 2017-11-30

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  117. daniel

    Kev: do you have a response to my last email in the mam group chat thread?

  118. Kev

    I'll try to get to that this afternoon or tomorrow afternoon. My current policy is to spend the mornings coding and afternoons dealing with everything else.

  119. daniel


  120. SouL

    That's a good approach to life :)

  121. Kev

    I've got a bunch of other changes that need making for 313, so I'm tempted to write up a sentence that I think will make everyone happy, and include that in the patch and see what you think.

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  124. edhelas

    jonasw here ?

  125. jonasw

    edhelas, yes

  126. edhelas

    great :)

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  128. edhelas

    now that 0060 has been updated I'll see if I can update the XEPs that require multi-items

  129. edhelas

    I was thinking about 0277 and 0330 first

  130. edhelas

    also I'd like to move Bookmarks to that

  131. jonasw

    edhelas, bookmarks is a hot topic, at least wait for next weeks council discussion

  132. edhelas

    yup, I'll update the others because it's just about clarification

  133. jonasw

    for the others, go ahead, those are experimental and deferred

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  136. edhelas

    if you have other XEPs in mind please tell me

  137. jonasw

    I don’t, I’m not really in the pubsub space

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  140. edhelas

    you should come, it's fun over there

  141. jonasw

    nah, I’m busy in MAM space currently :)

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  164. edhelas

    I start to have users that are putting a lot of private information in their XMPP account

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  167. edhelas

    I find the standard authentication (password) quite weak and I'd like to know if we could discuss about that

  168. edhelas

    basically maybe work on 2FA and password recovery

  169. jonasw

    edhelas, regarding 2FA, SASL2 might be for you

  170. jonasw

    [xep 388]

  171. jonasw

    -xep 388

  172. Bunneh

    jonasw: Extensible SASL Profile (Standards Track, Experimental, 2017-08-24) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0388.html

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  174. edhelas

    ah nice

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  188. dwd

    edhelas, I have a load of stuff done (coded up, everything) on this.

  189. dwd

    edhelas, I need to find the time to finish off the spec work.

  190. dwd

    edhelas, But if you want to help out that'd be awesome.

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  201. daniel

    zinid, to answer your question regarding bookmarks and avatars. this was postponed to next week. we haven't talked about this yesterday

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  203. edhelas

    zinid what was your question ?

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  207. zinid

    edhelas, I just asked what was the conclusion on bookmarks and avatars XEPs

  208. zinid

    edhelas, it seems like some guys don't want PEP based avatars, for the record 🙂 Probably you won't like it a lot 🙂

  209. edhelas

    I want PEP for everything :p

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  215. zinid

    I know 😛

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  219. pep.

    I know

  220. pep.

    rrr self_ping

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  272. Guus

    nyco - are you here for the upcoming board meeting?

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  279. ralphm

    I tried pinging nyco myself this morning and half an hour ago. No response yet.

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  281. Guus

    as did I - same result

  282. ralphm

    I learned from a colleague he's unavailable until at least 5pm, so I don't expect him

  283. Guus

    ah, to bad.

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  285. Guus

    well, let's give it a few minutes, see if we're lucky.

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  288. Guus

    if only we had a mechanism that'd allow us to see the availability of someone online... ;)

  289. SouL


  290. ralphm bangs gavel

  291. ralphm

    0. Welcome and Agenda

  292. ralphm

    Hi, new board! Who do we have?

  293. MattJ waves

  294. Martin

    I'm here

  295. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  296. Guus


  297. ralphm

    As said before the meeting, through the grapevine, I've learned that's unlikely that nyco will attend today.

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  299. ralphm

    My suggested agenda is relatively simple: pick a Chair.

  300. ralphm

    The Board should also later appoint other Officers.

  301. Guus

    I'd like to quickly run over the outstanding Trello cards, see what's still relevant.

  302. dwd

    Can you pick a chair in the absence of a full Board?

  303. ralphm

    dwd: this is indeed a good question. I've tried getting into contact with nyco in various ways. So has Guus.

  304. Guus

    dwd: I'd be uncomfortable doing so.

  305. ralphm

    I'm not happy about that either

  306. Guus

    I would not object to postpone picking a chair until we all are present, and move on with other business, having Ralph continue to be chair for the time being.

  307. ralphm

    I think that's acceptable with regard to the bylaws, but opinions welcome.

  308. MattJ

    I'm fine to continue

  309. ralphm

    ok, so then I only offer the point of Appointment of Officers for the agenda

  310. MattJ

    I don't see how the bylaws would forbid it (though neither how they require the full board to elect the chair)

  311. ralphm

    along with walking over the Trello board

  312. ralphm

    1. Confirm minute taker

  313. ralphm

    Who will do the honors?

  314. ralphm


  315. Guus

    I'll do them

  316. Kev

    (Belatedly, I think delaying voting on a new Chair until all are present is ideal too)

  317. ralphm

    Guus: appreciated, but it would also be nice if it was not a Board member, so that's why I ask

  318. ralphm

    last term dwd offered

  319. Kev

    I'm AFK in a few minutes, so I can't, sorry.

  320. ralphm

    Kev: thanks!

  321. Guus

    Ralphm: I'd be happy for someone else to do them. :)

  322. ralphm


  323. ralphm

    Let's see if someone else pops up, but for now it is you

  324. dwd

    I'm only somewhat here. Rather busy today.

  325. ralphm


  326. ralphm

    2. Appointment of Officers

  327. Guus

    What Officers?

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  329. ralphm

    Besides the Chair, we also need to re-appoint Secretary, Treasurer and Executive Director.

  330. ralphm

    In the previous term, Peter has noted he wanted to step down as ED

  331. MattJ

    Didn't Peter indicate intent to resign the position(s)?

  332. Guus

    I've not read up in the bylaws. Can you outline the procedure?

  333. ralphm

    but would still be Treasurer. Alex is our current secretary.

  334. ralphm

    Let's ask them if they want to continue for another term

  335. ralphm

    Guus: what!

  336. ralphm

    ARTICLE VI: Officers Section 6.1 Number and Qualifications. The officers of the Corporation shall consist of the following: (a) a Chair, (b) an Executive Director, (c) a Secretary, and (d) a Treasurer. Officers must be natural persons that the Board of Directors elects or appoints. Officers need not be Directors of the Corporation and shall hold office at the discretion of the Board of Directors. Subject to these Bylaws, the Board of Directors may also elect or appoint one or more additional officers or assistant officers as it may deem convenient or necessary. Except as provided in these Bylaws, the Board of Directors shall fix the powers and duties of all officers.

  337. ralphm

    (oh, Gajim, you are so funny with emoticons)

  338. Guus

    that doesn't state a term for those officers. Is there a requirement to re-appoint them?

  339. Guus

    (apart from ED, who has expressed intention to step down)

  340. ralphm

    Guus: please read the bylaws

  341. Guus


  342. ralphm

    The term is 1 year for all officers

  343. Guus

    In any case, I'm happy with the suggestion to ask the existing officers to continue for another term.

  344. ralphm


  345. MattJ

    "Each officer shall hold office for a period of one year or until his or her successor is elected and qualified or until his or her earlier resignation or removal."

  346. ralphm

    Yeah, I think that is a bit ambiguous.

  347. Guus

    Doesn't hurt to ask them explicitly.

  348. ralphm

    Does it mean you'll hold the office beyond a year if no-one else comes up?

  349. ralphm


  350. Guus

    Shall I draft a quick email to both?

  351. ralphm

    3. Sure

  352. ralphm


  353. ralphm


  354. ralphm

    3. Topics for decisions

  355. ralphm

    I see the item of renaming Draft to Stable.

  356. ralphm

    I think we said last time that there's no consensus. Can we remove this item?

  357. ralphm


  358. MattJ

    I think we can remove it for now, until a new proposal is made

  359. MattJ

    The current one did not reach consensus

  360. Guus


  361. ralphm

    4. Commitments

  362. ralphm

    Apart from that e-mail by Guus, I'd like to add one for searching for a replacement ED

  363. ralphm

    While I'm Chair, I'll take that one

  364. ralphm

    There's also an item about a D&O quote. I think I need to figure that out with stpeter, too.

  365. Guus

    What is that?

  366. ralphm

    My point

  367. ralphm

    I think nobody remembers exactly

  368. Guus

    also: as Peter is no board member - why are we tracking this?

  369. ralphm

    Peter is Executive Director

  370. ralphm

    and Treasurer

  371. MattJ

    It was a task assigned to Peter by the boar

  372. MattJ


  373. MattJ


  374. Guus


  375. ralphm

    in both roles, he's invited for Board meetings, as well as the Secretart and the Chair of Council

  376. ralphm

    in both roles, he's invited for Board meetings, as well as the Secretary and the Chair of Council

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  379. Guus

    No-one remembers what 'D&O' is?

  380. dwd

    Guus, Director and Officer insurance.

  381. MattJ


  382. Guus


  383. Guus


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  385. ralphm

    Last comment I saw by Peter was 30-8:

  386. ralphm

    This fell off my radar screen. If it is still a priority I can look into it again. It tends to be expensive, but I can report back on details.

  387. Guus

    Actually, I've looked into this for another Foundation - it doesn't need to be that expensive.

  388. ralphm

    Guus: if you want, please check with Peter

  389. Guus

    but that might be in a Dutch setting only - unsure

  390. Guus

    Ok, I will

  391. ralphm

    5. Items for discussion

  392. ralphm

    Let's use this to quickly go over the backlog

  393. ralphm

    Last Board failed to agree on a list of priorities. So let's try for real this time

  394. ralphm

    I'm not sure about the IoT strategy doc, alternative meeting org

  395. ralphm

    the meetups sync seems to be for SCAM?

  396. Guus

    as there's no progress on both for a long time, lets archive the IoT strategy doc and alternative meeting org.

  397. ralphm


  398. Guus

    I agree on the meetup sync bit - that aught to be scam

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  400. ralphm

    for the SPIM thing, that doesn't require anything from us right now. Anyone can write a XEP to propose this

  401. Guus

    I think the idea of a SPIM-focussed work team is something to be discussed.

  402. ralphm


  403. Guus

    Ah. I read that as: create a group of people focussed on that, solely.

  404. ralphm

    Not sure if that needs Board, but sure, let's put it there

  405. Guus

    I'm not sure why people be more inclined to work on that after being grouped though.

  406. MattJ

    Yeah, I think some concrete goals should be defined before forming the group

  407. ralphm

    That leaves us with the membership survey

  408. MattJ

    Rather than just a vague "we need to fix the spam problem, let's form a group"

  409. ralphm

    Shall I keep that for discussion?

  410. Guus

    doesn't the survey tie in with the priorities?

  411. ralphm


  412. Guus

    as in: one's output should be the others input?

  413. ralphm

    I'd also like everyone to think about the priorities next to that

  414. Guus

    nyco appears to have done quite some legwork on that

  415. ralphm

    I mean, we are part of the community, too, so there might be some things you already know you want to work on this term

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  418. ralphm

    Shall I move it to discussion then?

  419. MattJ


  420. Guus


  421. ralphm

    Ok. I think we're out of time

  422. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  423. Ge0rG

    I've asked for the creation of a SPAM taskforce, which would operate behind closed doors at first, but it was not deemed acceptable.

  424. ralphm

    I suggest +1W

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  426. ralphm

    until we hear from nyco otherwise

  427. Martin

    +1W is fine with me

  428. MattJ


  429. ralphm

    Ge0rG: that's not entirely true. There was simply no consensus

  430. Guus

    Shall I provisionally move the scheduled item in the calendar?

  431. ralphm


  432. Guus

    (works for me)

  433. ralphm

    Guus: yes please

  434. ralphm

    7. Close

  435. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  436. Guus

    one AOB: there's an old wiki page for board with stale data. Can we remove that?

  437. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I think the consensus was that anybody can form any kind of closed group and that the XSF shouldn't approve of this specific one

  438. ralphm

    Guus: A link would be good.

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  440. Guus


  441. Ge0rG

    ralphm: that was not meant as a criticism, I'm okay with the decision - just a reminder of why this was on the agenda

  442. ralphm

    Guus: sure archive

  443. Guus

    Instead, I propose to redirect that link to the public website (which is what we do for Council, too)

  444. ralphm

    Ge0rG: so we can remove it from our Trello then?

  445. Ge0rG

    ralphm: unless you want to form an official SPIM fighting group open to the public, I think you can remove it

  446. ralphm

    I'll leave it on for next week, and then we make that decision

  447. ralphm bangs gavel

  448. MattJ

    Thanks ralphm

  449. Ge0rG

    thanks, Board :)

  450. Guus

    thank you guys

  451. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  452. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I'm still missing you in that MUC, and I think you are still blocking messages from strangers.

  453. Guus

    Can someone give me access to Trello, please?

  454. Guus

    the Board board, specifically.

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  456. ralphm

    I will

  457. Guus


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  459. MattJ

    Ge0rG, invite me? I'm not blocking messages from strangers (since a while back, as my receipt of many spam messages proves)

  460. ralphm

    Guus: what's your handle?

  461. Ge0rG

    MattJ: invited you, once again :)

  462. MattJ

    Ok, weird, I didn't receive it :/

  463. Ge0rG

    MattJ: last time we tried it, it was blocked by some module/config on your server/account.

  464. Guus

    ralphm: guusderkinderen

  465. ralphm


  466. Guus

    I've just rescheduled the XSF Board agenda item in the calendar - can someone kindly verify that I didn't mess up?

  467. Guus

    ralphm: thanks

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  469. ralphm

    Looks good to me, Guus. Thanks

  470. Guus


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  472. jonasw

    SamWhited, re colors, I’m thinking of putting the base algorithm in a single block, and only noting the differences for the individual modifications (like CVD correction, background correction etc.) in separate sections

  473. jonasw

    in addition to cleaning up my reference implementation and putting it somewhere public

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  497. SamWhited

    hmm, my CVD corretion doesn't appear to be working, but without that it's passing the tests

  498. SamWhited

    I don't think that was due to anything confusing in the document though, just a bug of mine

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  509. SamWhited

    ah yah, MSB not LSB

  510. SamWhited

    jonasw: I think the second test for blue-blindness correction may be wrong, can you confirm the values there when you get a moment?

  511. jonasw


  512. jonasw

    working on those things at the moment anyways

  513. SamWhited

    hmm, my naive impression is that for blue-blindness that color wouldn't change actually (no blue component when I convert it to RGB), so maybe my implementation is broken. Not sure how it would affect that single value though

  514. jonasw

    maybe the others aren’t affected by blue correction

  515. SamWhited

    The first one shouldn't be either, but it appears to be changing (and my implementation seems to work there)

  516. SamWhited

    Well, I say "shouldn't be", I'm not sure, I'm just guessing based on the blue component

  517. SamWhited

    I should do the floating point version of the math and check

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  521. SamWhited

    That's weird, if I check the angle before applying the correction it is different from yours for everything *except* this one, but the final result is correct for everything except this one.

  522. jonasw


  523. jonasw

    that’s weird

  524. jonasw

    I haven’t checked the non-floating-point way though

  525. jonasw

    I just trusted what Marcel said on list

  526. jonasw

    I’ll try to implement that in the C++ app I’m currently building right now

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  529. jonasw

    afk for dinner now though

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  537. SamWhited

    jonasw: also, the first test in blue-blindness doesn't have enough columns (I think it's missing the g/b values)

  538. Kev has joined

  539. SamWhited

    or something; it doesn't match the headers anyways, but it looks like others don't too so maybe the headers are wrong

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  542. SamWhited

    oh nevermind, I refreshed and that's already been fixed…

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  557. jonasw

    SamWhited, if the columns changed, did you accidentally use the wrong tables?

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  562. SamWhited

    No, I had two versions of the document open and didn't notice. I was using the right one when I put these values in though

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  565. SamWhited

    I found at least one bug in my blue correction, but fixing that just changed what's failing (all the others are failing and the second one is passing). It's very confusing.

  566. jonasw

    care to paste the cvd and test code?

  567. jonasw

    would be happy to take a look

  568. SamWhited

    sure, just a second

  569. SamWhited

    I'm still setting the wrong bit on the blue correction, will fix then push

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  571. jonasw

    anglei = (anglei & 0x7fff) | ((anglei & 0x4000) << 1);

  572. jonasw

    this is what I’m doing and I think it does the right thing

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  576. SamWhited

    jonasw: isn't it the inverse of the second bit you want?

  577. jonasw

    the second-most-significant

  578. jonasw

    so if 15th is the most significant, you want the inverse of the 14th

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  580. jonasw


  581. SamWhited

    right, there you're just taking the second most significant not doing the inverse

  582. jonasw

    that’s not the inverse.

  583. jonasw

    now I need to hceck which is correct with the FP version :)

  584. jonasw

    (I *think* that both would work)

  585. jonasw


  586. jonasw

    yeah, with ~ before the last anglei

  587. jonasw

    interesting, apparently CSS will apply **0.45 to the colors, while Qt wont

  588. jonasw

    that’s great >.>

  589. daniel has left

  590. jonasw

    or something else is fishy

  591. SamWhited

    Fixed it, I had an order of operations issue the whole time *facepalm*

  592. SamWhited


  593. SamWhited

    i = (i & 0x7fff) | (((i & 0x4000) << 1) ^ 0x8000) should do the right thing

  594. jonasw

    yup, seems sane

  595. SamWhited

    That's easy enough to make simple mistakes on that it might be worth including it in that section

  596. jonasw


  597. SamWhited

    Same for the "i &= 0x7fff" for red-green blindness

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  600. jonasw

    noted for the next update

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  620. Ge0rG

    It looks only slightly less awkward than the Java version. I've really started to love python's struct.pack() for those use cases

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  623. jonasw

    int.from_bytes(hash[:2], "little") is what I did

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  635. SamWhited

    In retrospect I'm not sure why I implemented Go's Hash interface. I can't imagine anyone wanting to use this for large amounts of data or wanting to pass it in as a replacement for some actual hash…

  636. SamWhited

    So really I could remove all the API nonsense and have it just be a single function

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  650. jonasw

    is anyone working on restoring xmpp.net, by the way? I recall Arc wanted to do something about that

  651. jonasw

    hm, nice, the luasec version needed by xmpppoke doesn’t work with libssl1.1

  652. Zash

    "nice", "luasec" and "openssl" in the same sentence? sarcasm detected

  653. jonasw


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  655. jonasw

    debian oldstable it is!

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  657. Holger

    Yeah I built some of these things myself on check.messaging.one.

  658. Holger

    Debain oldstable too.

  659. jonasw

    Holger, do you happen to have a recipe of some kind for that?

  660. jonasw

    I’m trying to devise a dockerfile I can then throw at iteam

  661. Holger

    You need an older OpenSSL anyway for the SSLv2 checking.

  662. jonasw

    hm, maybe I should just use the libssl from testssl.sh?

  663. Holger

    I don't have proper docs sorry, but if you're stumbling over specific issues I can try to recall how I solved them.

  664. jonasw

    nothing out of the ordinary yet

  665. jonasw

    except that developing these things with docker is annoying

  666. Holger

    I also have various xmppoke backend/frontend fixes. But just a big diff, not individual commits, yay.

  667. jonasw


  668. jonasw

    could you share these eventually?

  669. Holger

    I'm sorry. I was annoyed and wanted to get this set up quickly.

  670. Holger

    Yes sure.

  671. jonasw

    I understand :)

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  673. Holger

    I used OpenSSL 1.0.2k as that's the most-recent version with v2 support.

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  676. Holger

    Needs "./config enable-ssl2 ...".

  677. Zash

    I wonder if you can get away with just sending a raw SSL v2/v3 handshake and look for success/fail in the response, instead of having full support for it in OpenSSL

  678. Holger


  679. jonasw

    I’m now giving it a shot with the OpenSSL build used by testssl.sh

  680. jonasw

    which is 1.0.2k with some patches

  681. Holger


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  683. jonasw

    doing the one thing one should probably never do with that piece of software: make insatll.

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  685. Holger

    Ah the backend diff is not that bad actually: https://check.messaging.one/patches/xmppoke.diff.txt

  686. jonasw


  687. Holger

    The frontend diff is :-/

  688. Holger


  689. Holger

    ... because there's bug fixes hidden between all those cosmetic changes.

  690. zinid


  691. Holger


  692. zinid

    me when I see web thing

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  708. marc

    Ge0rG, that's my vision of user invitation on mobile devices: https://projects.zapb.de/tmp/xmpp-invite-conversations.webm

  709. marc

    Providing a username is optional, of course

  710. Ge0rG

    MattJ: there, easy onboarding

  711. SamWhited

    jonasw: I figured out what I was looking at earlier when I thought the columns were wrong… in the other version of the document I had open it wasn't an old one, I was just scrolled down to the color pallete tests and they have the wrong number of fields

  712. Ge0rG

    marc: why do you need to enter two names?

  713. marc

    Ge0rG, username is optional (required in this setup) and predefines the username of the JID

  714. marc

    Ge0rG, your name = name of the inviter

  715. Ge0rG

    marc: you don't need any names to create an invitation

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  717. marc

    Ge0rG, sure, both are optional

  718. marc

    or not even possible to be set, depends on your configuration

  719. Flow

    And ideally the your name field is pre-filled with possibly existing vcard information

  720. marc

    Flow, exactly!

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  722. marc

    Ge0rG, in my current ejabberd setup, inviter name and username are configured as "requried"

  723. marc

    that's why they need to be filled out

  724. marc

    the inviter name is also used for the roster item

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  726. Ge0rG

    marc: too many things to do....

  727. Ge0rG

    Get the inviter name from the vCard and let the invitee specify their own name

  728. marc

    Ge0rG, once again, that's configurable

  729. marc

    you don't even see the input fields if you configure your server in that way

  730. Flow

    but pre fill the roster entry name on the invitee's UI with the possibly provided inviter name

  731. Flow

    marc: good job so far

  732. marc

    Ge0rG, if you click "invite contact" you immediatley get the QR code

  733. marc

    Ge0rG, that's just because I configured the server in that way...

  734. marc

    Flow, thanks!

  735. Flow

    what is the rationale for the "benutername"?

  736. Flow

    what is the incentive for me to enter it?

  737. marc

    Flow, you have the choice to predefine the JID

  738. Flow

    predefine the JID?

  739. marc

    you can set the username part of the new JID

  740. Flow

    ahh ok, I'd eventually switch the order of fields

  741. marc

    If Benutername = "marc", the JID of the new created account is marc@<server>

  742. marc

    Flow, yes

  743. Ge0rG

    I would leave that to the invitee

  744. marc

    Ge0rG, you can configure it ;)

  745. marc

    Flow, just a proof of concept

  746. Flow


  747. marc

    But a working one :)

  748. Zash

    Beware those

  749. marc

    But UI is not perfect and there are some corner-case bugs

  750. Zash

    I made a proof of concept once. Now everyone uses it as if it was production ready!

  751. marc

    Sure, that's why I didn't publish the code yet :D

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  757. marc

    Ge0rG, you're not really convinced, hm? :D

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  771. Ge0rG

    marc: you are doing a good job, and it's important to do. I'm just a hardcore perfectionist.

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  774. Zash

    Getting the right level of feedback is Hard

  775. Ge0rG

    marc: do you need help wiring the XEP?

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  778. Ge0rG

    I'm sometimes a bit blunt with my feedback, sorry

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  780. Zash

    The trick, according to some blag I saw once, is to make your thing look about as finished as it is

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  784. marc

    Ge0rG, good, I'm a perfectionist too :D

  785. marc

    Ge0rG, I have a XEP version with the protocol flow and some references but far away from "ready-to-submit"

  786. marc

    I'll probably push it on my Git repo in a couple of days

  787. Zash

    marc: That sounds like "ready-to-submit" to me

  788. marc

    Zash, not for a perfectionist :>

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