Ge0rGI wonder if it would be a bad idea to ban html-only mails on standards@. It breaks display of quoting badly on text-only MUAs
jonaswmarkup discussions \o/
jonaswwe haven’t had any for over a week
Ge0rGmeta-markup.
Ge0rGor markup-meta?
Ge0rGI'm actually catching up the Styling thread from three weeks ago.
jonaswah, so maybe using html-only there was an act of irony? :)
Ge0rGSo far, the html-only mails I've read didn't contribute anything positive to the discussion. If it wasn't for my Council hat, I'd have blacklisted them already.
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Ge0rGI'm actually glad that we are getting XEPs that define the visual format of things.
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zinidyeah, this is very important now, when basic things are borked
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Tobiasjonasw, using the Nickname as source of coloring would have other issues, like when somebody else joins a room with the same nick they'll get the same color, suggesting to the user that they are the same
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Ge0rGhey marc, any news from your XEP?
Ge0rGzinid: why don't you volunteer some time and actually improve the protocols, then? :P
zinidGe0rG, typical open-source nerd detected 🙂 If you don't have the feature: write it!
jonaswTobias, we have that problem with anonymous MUCs in any case
zinidwhile you can act like this (many do) you will end up with no users of your standards eventually
Tobiastrue..so maybe in that case they should be all colored the same?
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jonaswTobias, that’s what is specified now
Tobiasgreat
danielzinid: I didn't think much about any namespace issues with the retry element. I guess I can move it around.
Guushttps://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/595zg5/sopranica-jmp-wom-cell-network-diy-anonymous seems to be xmpp based.
ziniddaniel, I'm concerned because ejabberd has validation mode now, and I don't know how to validate unknown elements or attributes
zinidthe mode is optional
danielzinid: yes I'll add it beneath the iq then. I just didn't think about validation. In fact this can probably cause issues in other implementations as well. (just due to a lack of a getExtension method for the error class)
zinidright
Ge0rG"the web address in your Jabber ID will be different—for example, motherboard@jabber.ccc.de or motherboard@xmpp.jp." That made my eyes bleed.
marcGe0rG: no not yet (XEP)
Ge0rGmarc: I'd really like to tear it apa.. eh.. I mean.. provide some constructive feedback
marcGe0rG: let me check if I have Git access at the moment
Ge0rGGuus: that's an interesting article about an interesting tech. I remember there was an announcement of the JMP service on one of our MLs two months ago or so
Ge0rGBut I didn't realize it's more than just a VoIP bridging service.
GuusGe0rG: I kind of had the same experience
Guusalso: be nice to marc.
Ge0rGI'm interested in adhoc 3G infrastructure for a completely different project, but now I forgot the MUC JID :(
Guusbookmarks! :D
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Ge0rGGuus: I've stored it in PEP, but then it was gone after a server upgrade!!!!1!
Guusoh no! you did a _server upgrade_ ?!
jonasws/upgrade/restart/?
Ge0rGGuus: I did a _server_ _upgrade_!
jonaswGuus, we’ll be nice to marc :)
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GuusI see we're back to the markup fun :)
Guusthanks Jonas :)
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Ge0rGjonasw: I'm not sure whom you mean by "we"
Guustakes out his trusty smelly trout and eyes Ge0rG...
Guus(mIRC references are one step down from bash.org quotes, right? :) )
Ge0rGGuus: you may only swing the trout from mIRC32.exe
Ge0rGGuus: unless you have screenshots of connecting to this MUC from mIRC, I won't take any damage.
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GuusGe0rG: although that does sound like fun, I really should stop procrastinating :)
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Ge0rGSo I found some references to jmp.chat on the archives, but only from Denver's "signature"
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daniel> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/595zg5/sopranica-jmp-wom-cell-network-diy-anonymous seems to be xmpp based.
Are the Americans reinventing freifunk?
Ge0rGdaniel: it rather looks like SIP and picocells
SouLYou can join discuss@conference.soprani.ca if interested on that
danielpicocells as in 4G? are you allowed to run those in the US?
Ge0rGdaniel: if you are a telco and have the frequencies, then yes.
danielok. i'll put it into my not gonna happen box
GuusIs anyone going to the Paris Open Source Summit this week? https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/POSS_2017
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Ge0rGSouL: that's what I was looking for, thanks
Ge0rG> fatal: unable to access 'https://git.zapb.de/xeps.git/': server certificate verification failed.
Meh.
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jonaswGe0rG, pluralis majestatis
jonaswor so? ;-)
Ge0rGjonasw: I didn't dare to suggest that. But it's probably better than personality disorder.
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jonasw:P
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jonaswno, you’ll also be nice to marc *waves hand*
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marcGe0rG: it works, it uses LE
marcMust be a problem on your side ;)
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Ge0rGmarc: did you forget to add the cross-signed "root" cert to the chain?
Ge0rG Chain of trust NOT ok (chain incomplete)
marcGe0rG: not that I'm aware of. It works on all clients for me
Ge0rGmarc: it's apparently not in the Root CA list on my old-ish Debian box
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marcGe0rG: oh you're right 😬
marcRemove the 's' for now then ;)
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Ge0rGmarc: https://git.zapb.de/xep.git/? 😀
Ge0rGmarc: I'm not removing the _other_ s.
marc😀
marcYou have to wait with your "feedback" then ;)
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Ge0rGjonasw: I consider it nice to think through what another person suggests and to make constructive feedback. I also consider it nice to not steal people's time by adding large amounts of boilerplate text that simulates politeness, instead just jumping to the point. For reasons beyond my comprehension, people call me blunt and negativistic.
SouLHaha
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Ge0rGmarc: the git:// URL is also a lie :(
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Ge0rGdaniel: oh, no 3G... "WOM is XMPP over chibiArduino (thin messaging on IEEE 802.15.4)"
marcGe0rG: fixed
marcSorry
Ge0rGmarc: thanks very much :)
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Ge0rGMeh. How do you build html from an xeps/inbox/ file?
jonaswGe0rG, make build/inbox/foo.html
jonaswor make inbox-html to build them all
Ge0rGjonasw: ah, thanks. That actually makes sense
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Ge0rGAnd once again, I forgot to sql-extract from my backup phone the self-messages I wrote on MIX. :sad:
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jonaswzinid, FWIW, RFC 6120 schemas are incorrect, so I wonder how much pain you’ll be having with validation.
jonaswat least afaict, the schemas do not allow for application-defined-condition in the error element, despite the text explicitly allowing that
jonaswalso, the text allows for the use of the "code" attribute for compatibility, but the schema does not
zinidjonasw, I can leave with this and fix the validator accordingly
zinidwhat I don't want is doing this constantly
jonaswyou may also be in violation of RFC 6120, because servers must simply route traffic addressed to clients (independent of their understanding), but I don’t have a quote for that right now
zinidyeah, and in another place the RFC says you MAY validate, go figure
jonaswI understand your general concern, but ignoring undefined attributes and elements is essentially how extensibility in XMPP works.
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zinidno
zinidthis is not how it should work, because there simply can be tag names collisions if we allow adding whatever anyone wants
jonaswno, that’s why we have namespaces
jonaswa namespace is defined in a single document
jonasw(roughly)
Guusfor what it's worth, people in here repeatedly repeat that "schema's in XEPs are not normative" - Best beware to depend on them to much.
zinidwhat's the point in this namespace if anyone can extend it?
jonaswzinid, define "anyone"
ZashPretty sure our equivalent to the robustness principle is "ignore what you don't understand"
jonaswthe author and maintainer of the namespace can.
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zinidjonasw, you or me for example, can I use <foo xmlns='jabber:client'> for my extension?
jonaswno
jonaswwell, you can, but that’d be stupid and asking for trouble
zinidand <retry xmlns='http:upload:0'>?
jonaswand nobody would approve of that
jonaswsame
jonaswunless you’re doing this in context of a XEP-0363 update
jonaswI don’t think that the XSF would approve of a XEP update to any XEP *but* XEP-0363 which extends the http:upload:0 namespace
intosiOnly the IETF can introduce elements and attributes in the jabber:client xmlns through a replacement RFC, I think.
zinidso, that means XSF can add whatever they want, but not others?
jonaswzinid, sure, the XSF "owns" the urn:xmpp namespace. that’s the whole point of having a standards organization?
ZashIt's all in our heads anyways
zinidwell, of course it's up to you, but I won't change ejabberd validation style
zinidas I disagree
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danielZash, namespaces exists only because people believe in them?
jonaswzinid, what would you prefer?
zinidbumping namespace obviously
danieland if people stop believe the whole system will collapse?
Zashdaniel: pretty much
jonaswzinid, that’s insanity.
jonaswbumping the namespace is a major breakage
jonaswalso, this is an experimental XEP
zinidjonasw, then wait for major breakage and add it in that revision
jonaswdon’t expect any type of stability in there
zinidif this is an experimental xep I don't see a problem in bumping at all
jonaswunnecssary namespace bumps are a bunch of the reason why "basic" things like MAM are troublesome.
zinidbut what do you expect from experimental xep?
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Flowwhat I expect from any XEP: no namespace bumps for backwards compatible changes
zinidwhat I expect: the protocol should be formally verified
zinidwe can debate to death, really
GuusThis touches on a comment made by Jonasw on list - it's probably not the best of ideas to apply a change when the XEP is in last-call.
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FlowThen we should write down that rule in xep1
zinidyes, the rules are:
1) schemas are meaningless
2) the protocol cannot be formally verified
3) only XSF can add new elements within the same namespace
zinidnow, implement!
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GuusFlow: I don't mind clarifying that in XEP-0001, but perhaps we can also simply try to avoid this from occurring, and save the red tape.
GuusAs the author of the XEP is also on Council, I'm interested in how this plays out though :)
danielzinid: I don't understand why you would want to add new elements with the official namespace. Just use your own
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ziniddaniel, not me, but I see this quite frequently among customer's code
danielIs there anything stopping them from using their own namespace besides lack of knowledge (that they should do this)
zinidbecause they don't want to create a namespace with a single element, I think that's their logic
danieli see
danielbut you can hardly blame the system or the xsf for that
zinidI can use validator to prevent such behaviour among customers
zinidwhich works ideally, they don't even create tickets 😛
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KevIt's only worth bumping the namespace when interop that wouldn't work without it will work with it.
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dwdI think it comes down to whether you see XML and XMLNS as a pragmatic solution to permissionless innovation, or as a stick with which to beat people.
dwdNot that I'm biased here of course. ;-)
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danielMattJ, jonasw: would you feel more comfortable if retry is a direct child of the iq?
jonaswdaniel, NO
jonaswthat violates RFC 6120
MattJiq can only have one child
jonaswplease don’t do that
jonaswwhat you’re doing now is fine with RFC 6120, albeit weird usage of the "condition"
MattJdaniel, do you have an objection to just using the error type for this information?
danielMattJ: yes. I want to know _when_ I can retry
danielThis could be seconds or hours
jonaswdaniel, hm, how would the server know when the client can retry?
danielDepending on implementation
jonaswquota cleanup cronjob something?
dwdMattJ, Well. Errors can have two, actually. Sort of.
ZashCould this not be in a custom element next to the error?
MattJdwd, ?
danieljonasw: we are taking about quotas like only x MiB an hour
dwdMattJ, Error + original request.
jonaswdaniel, well, actually, you could in fact make this a child of <iq/>, but I would consider that abuse. normally an error IQ only returns the original data, if anything
ZashI haven't looked at whatever this <retry> thing is closely enough yet
danielJabber.at is doing this
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Zasha "application-specific condition element" ala retry-after t=x
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jonaswdaniel, FWIW, I’m fine-ish with this being a child of <error/>. I find it a bit weird, though. Maybe wrap it in a <quota-exceeded xmlns="http-upload"/> thing first? Then there would be an actual condition, with additional information on when to re-try. It also allows to re-use the <retry/> for other possible conditions (like <ebusy/> or so)
danielthen i have to define every possible error condition instead of relying on normal errors + text
jonaswdaniel, good point
MattJIt seems like this is a specific case though, not something that could be combined with every other error
pep.I'm curious what's wrong with defining errors and not just dumping text
jonaswpep., you need to foresee every possible condition
pep.Can you not extent it later?
danielpep., we already have a huge bunch of 'predefined' errors
jonaswpep., maybe first read up on the context; in this case, it’s about annotating errors with a time at which the client may re-try
pep.jonasw, yeah I need to read stuff
danieljonasw, if anything i could wrap it in something like <temporal-error><retry/></temporal-error> (working title)
jonaswdaniel, as I said, I’m fine-ish with <retry/> as child of error. it feels weird, but I’m fine-ish with that.
jonaswwell, that’s not usefull at all, leave it as child of <retry/> in that case, because that’s realyl just saying "this is *really* a type='wait' error, no kidding" :)
jonaswI have a larger problem with making substantial changes after last call begun :/
Zash<error type='wait'><resource-constraint/><text>You exceeded the quota, try again in an hour or so</text><retry-after stamp="YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ"/></error> ?
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danieli disagree with that being a substantial change
jonaswdaniel, in hindsight, it probably was. see the amount o fdiscussion it caused.
jonaswI also probably meant "non-editorial changes" instead of "substantial changes"
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pep.hmm, https://xmpp.org/community/mailing-lists.html, there's a members@ somewhere?
pep.Also https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html doesn't seem up-to-date, anybody knows since when? So I can PR (if I find out who's been accepted and who hasn't)
mathieuiyou’re automatically subscribed if you become a member afaik
pep.Ok. Can you give me a header I can filter on? I usually use List-ID
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jonaswpep., haven’t you been subscribed already?
jonaswList-Id: XSF Members <members.xmpp.org>
jonaswor wait, your election is still upcoming? I don’t konw
pep.I have no email coming from members@
pep.Maybe it's still not done yet, we'll see
mathieuipep., it’s not done yet
pep.cool
mathieuiit’s finalized on the 7th I think
jonasw2017-12-06 is the meeting
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edhelasdaniel would it be possible to see if we can figure out the usage of SIMS in Conversations https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/2637 ?
danielWhat particular feature do you need edhelas?
edhelasbasically that when Conversations upload a file it embed it using SIMS to the message, and not only OOB
edhelasthis allow other clients like Movim to have a bit more metadata about the file and create a nice thumbnail
SamWhitedI think I've asked like three times (sorry, I promise to write it down this time) but what was lacking from SIMS that OOB has that conversations uses?
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lovetoxnothing
lovetoxit was just there before
danieledhelas, mind giving me an full example of a message stanza you want me to create?
ZashIs this going to be another one of those times where the better solution dies because an okayish method already existed?
lovetoxedhelas, i would also implement this in gajim
edhelasthat would be awesome
pep.Zash: first come first served
lovetoxbut only for httpupload in short term
edhelasdaniel I can if you want, maybe tonight, but basically everything is done here in Movim https://github.com/movim/moxl/blob/master/src/Moxl/Stanza/Message.php#L101
SamWhitedOOB/SIMS is on my list of "things to deprecate one of", so if everyone wants to go implement SIMS that would make things much easier…
edhelasI'm doing SIMS and OOB when publishing and only SIMS when receiving
danieledhelas, so you put the url in the body and then set no begin and end attributes in the reference?
danieland you ignore the XEP MUST implement Jingle File Transfer (XEP-0234)?
edhelasthat's true, I'll put this begin and end tags
lovetoxdaniel
pep.Jingle-FT in movim when? :-°
lovetoxi think the xep means OR
lovetoxi dont see a reason why we have to implement jingle AND httpupload
edhelas> This XEP delegates actual transport of the media data to one of the existing file-transfer XEPs. Thus a client supporting this XEP MUST implement Jingle File Transfer (XEP-0234) [2] and HTTP File Upload (XEP-0363) [4].
daniellovetox, are you sure? the <file> element is even in the jingle namespace
danielfor what ever reason
edhelasso how does it work if I want to embed a file that was just uploaded by HTTP Upload ?
edhelasthe file is not in my machine, I just have some metadata and a URL
danieledhelas, you tell me. you wanted me to implement the XEP :-)
lovetoxah i think the xep just builds up on jingle file transfer negotiation
lovetoxso you have to implement the negotiation part
SamWhitedThat whole section doesn't make much sense to me, I think it just needs to be reworded.
lovetoxbut do not have to offer the actual jingle transport
lovetoxinstead you put in httpupload
edhelasdaniel that's all valid questions :) thanks for raising them
danielyou also need bob for thumbnails which i find very weird
danieli'm not gonna implement bob
edhelasso we need to upaded SIMS, do HTTP Upload AND/OR Jingle FT
danielhas *anyone* ever implemented bob?
edhelasI do
danielweird
lovetoxno edhelas this xep builds up on jingle FT
edhelasto do stickers sharing, the files are small enough to be shared using base64
lovetoxthat does not mean you have to provide a jingle transport like socks5 or whatever
danielwell yes. but the counterpart has to be online
danielwhich doesn't go well with the 'stateless' premise of the xep
pep.I know a few people were talking of a jingle component (so server-side), any discussion started on this already?
edhelasso we have to tackle again this "file sharing" discussion
danieledhelas, i mean I can totally implement what you are doing in that PHP script you linked earlier. that's like 10 minutes work
danielbut i'm really not sure that has anything to do with implementing the XEP
edhelasyeah I understand
edhelasto br frank I'm using SIMS to pass the metadata of HTTP File Upload to the other JID, that's mostly it
danieledhelas, what meta data are you interested in? mime type and size mostly i would assume?
danielmaybe file name
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danielby the way I personally also regard resolution (width * height) as a nice to have because that would could allow me to allocate space for this in the UI. which this XEP is not doing.
edhelasyup, mime and size as well, I'm not trusting them 100% but they tells me if I need to resolve the HTTP HEADER if I'm interested to build an attachement block to the message
danielso for me SIMS is just not doing the right thing. because i would ignore vast parts of the XEP and couldn't even but some information in there I want to put in there
daniel*put
lovetoxsims is just not trying to be a better OOB
danielSure.
lovetoxthats why it reuses jingle stuff
danielIt's doing something completely different
edhelasif we are improving OOB to add those tags I'd be happy
lovetoxi dont think so edhelas
lovetoxor at least i dont know how easy we can extend a xep years long in draft
lovetoxand if its good
SamWhitedI don't understand what SIMS is trying to be if not a better OOB; I agree that the XEPs focus seems a bit off, but that's fixable
lovetoxoob has a clear use case, and does it well, you can communicated a uri with a description
lovetoxreally SamWhited ?
lovetoxyou dont see what it trys to do beside adding metadata?
SamWhitedNo, as far as I can tell it's a better OOB except that it focuses on file transfer for some reason
lovetoxyou can share a file with multiple connection points for the receiver
lovetoxhe can choose if he wants to request it via jingle
lovetoxor httpupload
SamWhitedRight, and that's all just sharing some metadata about the file
lovetoxor any other FT method invented in the future
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SamWhitedAnd basically what OOB does except in a more general way
SamWhitedIt's OOB but with arbitrary URIs and some other random metadata
lovetoxwhat is the argument? you can add a shittone of stuff to OOB xep then its the same?
SamWhitedCan you? I don't see definitions for anything like eg. different resolutions of the same file or other things SIMS has
lovetoxi think we going in circles
lovetoxfrist you tell that you dont understand what sims trys to do
lovetoxnow you tell me oob does not have definitions about file resolutions
danielneither has sims though?
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SamWhitedIt doesn't, and I don't see how these two things are related; you said that SIMS doesn't do the same thing as OOB, and if that's true I don't understand what it does differently. To me it seems like it's just an improved OOB.
lovetoxdaniel i think you can just add more file tags
lovetoxwith different images
SamWhitedI thought SIMS specifically had that? Maybe I need to read it again
danielwithin the same reference?
danielhow do i match a source and a file then?
lovetoxnah i think im confusing this
lovetoxthis was 0084 with different avatar sizes or
SamWhitedAh yah, this one is just thumbnail. Regardless, it was just an example. "more metadata than OOB" was the point.
lovetoxyeah ok, but whats bad about this?!
ZashIt's a pointer.
lovetoxit tries to be more general and have more info then oob
lovetoxnot just a bit more, WAY more
SamWhitedI don't really care if we have more or less metadata, I just think we don't need two XEPs that do more or less the same thing
lovetoxso thats what i asked you 4 minutes ago
lovetox18:07:50] lovetox: what is the argument? you can add a shittone of stuff to OOB xep then its the same?
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ZashSamWhited: You are giving me the impression that we can never improve on things that already exist, since that would require overlaping protocols for some time.
lovetoxoob is a easy small xep that lets you share a description and a uri
lovetoxlet it be what it is
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danielyes. wouldn't touch oob. if anything we would create a new XEP that is a more streamlined 'here is an uri and here is some meta data'
danielor SIMS can move into that direction
jonaswI’d prefer the latter
jonaswSIMS seems like nice framework to extend
SamWhitedI agree
jonaswthe MUST support Jingle-FT is weird though
jonaswI didn’t know about that, maybe ask Tobias what that is about?
Zashjonasw: Why is that weird?
danieland the bob thumbnails are even more weird
jonaswZash, Jingle-FT is a rather complex beast, isn’t it?
Zashjonasw: If it's basically a pointer to a thing available over Jingle-FT?
jonaswit’s not necessarily Jingle-FT, or doesn’t necessarily need to be Jingle-FT
SamWhitedJingle-FT and SIMS are completely orthogonal; SIMS isn't a pointer to a Jingle URI, it also lets you have a pointer to an HTTP Upload API, and as far as I can tell could also provide a pointer to "my proprietary thing" URI.
jonaswor BOB
danielexpect that it says must support jingle ft
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danieland it's at least unclear how to do thumbnails without bob
SamWhitedThat seems like it either means "must support using the Jingle FT metadata XML" or "must usupport Jingle FT *or* something else" and it was just poorly worded, but I guess we'd have to ask Tobias
jonaswmaybe post that to the list, daniel?
SamWhitedThat and the paragraph after it confuse me though, so I suspect we just need section 5.1 reworded for clarity.
lovetoxim sure tobias just wanted to reuse already definied tags in another xep
lovetoxinstead of reinventing the same tags under a new namespace
danieljonasw, no. i have bigger fish to fry to be honest. things I actually need for Conversations. not saying that i won't implement SIMS but let other people figure out the details
lovetoxeither way i think its no problem to make this jingle agnostic
jonaswdaniel, but spark the discussion maybe?
danieljonasw, that's gonna get ignored anyway
jonaswgotta love your optimism
daniellike the one about MAM or the problems I raised with jingle-ft
danieland those are things i actually care about
SamWhitedMAM is being addressed isn't it? I thought Kev and Matthew responded to that and said they'd get a revision out
KevHmm? Not reading context, but a MAM update is <> close to the top of my stack.
daniel👍
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lovetoxi will post the questions to the list :)
lovetoxi care about sims :)
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lovetoxdo we really need thumbnails?
edhelaswhat I'd also like to see is a way to embed URLs in general to messages
lovetoxwith the metadata i can display some placeholder
edhelaslike many other messaging solutions are doing now
edhelashaving a littke thumbnail, description, title (the client will have to resolve thoses)
danieledhelas, isn't that what references is doing?
lovetoxedhelas thats what the end and begin is for
lovetoxso you can embed it in a message
edhelaslet me rephrase that :)
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edhelasXEP-0372: reference just gives a pointer to an URI, without metadata
edhelasXEP-0066: OOB gives a pointer to a URL with just a description
lovetoxno, it also tells you where in the text the reference is to be places✎
lovetoxno, it also tells you where in the text the reference is to be placed ✏
lovetoxwith beginn and end
edhelasXEP-0385: gives all the metadata, but doesn'yt fit well with my usage (URL only)
danielgf
danielyou probably need a og extension to references
daniellike sims but with og data
edhelasog ?
danielhttp://ogp.me/
danielwhich if you have that you don't need sims anymore to cover your usecase
danielbecause you can put all that into og
edhelaskind of yes
edhelasalso if I could have one generic way to attach thoses things to XMPP messages and/or Pubsub publications (that are actually Atom items as well) that would be nice
pep.rrr heroku apps and their lack of tls :(
pep.Or people failing to set it up correctly
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edhelasdaniel is it something that you'd like to have in Conversations ? URL/file embeding ?
danielisn't that exatcly would you would og and references for?
danielyou'd have a reference that spans the entire url in this case
danieland the og:tile, og:description and og:image
edhelasyup, but would you like to implement it in Conversations as well ?
danielin general yes. but i have the blocker not having stanza content encryption
danieland that's not going to be resolved any time soon tbh
danielit's easier for me at this point to generate that information on the receiving end
daniel(opt in)
edhelasyes I understand
danielalso ironically - generating the content on might have some privacy related down sides; but to properly circumvent this you'd have to mirror the image on the sender or else you will be at least leaking the image url
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edhelaswhat is the standard URI format fur Pubsub nodes and items ?
