Yeah, and they should be square (or round, council would decide it)
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Ge0rG
No, they need to be properly displayable in both round and square elements, and they also need a secondary graphic that can be used as a 16:9 background
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edhelas
Ge0rG for this I'd advice to add a "background" picture, like on many other social networks
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Ge0rG
And we also need a sarcasm tag!
edhelas
:X
Ge0rG
Or at least an according Emoji
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Guus
Openfire has a plugin that allows administrators to reduce the size of to large avatars. One of the XEPs does define a preferred size. (I _think_ it's 96x96 pixels).
Ge0rG
I think we should significantly increase that, maybe to 512*512?
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Guus
Ge0rG: I'm not sure about the defined size in the first place.
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Ge0rG
I haven't had a look into avatars yet. Need to fix message routing and MUC first
Guus
For avatars (icons), 512 seems excessive? Full profile picture, sure, but the picture in a roster or next to a chat message?
Ge0rG
Guus: I'm sure clients will (ab)use the avatar as a profile picture if they can get away with it
marc
Ge0rG, regarding PARS: what if I have multiple clients (A and B) and invite C with client A and C accepts the invitation while I'm online with B only?
Ge0rG
marc: with the current text, this will be a normal manual fallback. We've talked about making PARS approval server-side
marc
Okay, manual fallback sucks :-/
Ge0rG
marc: I'm still sceptical that we will get fast adoption of a server side feature, though. Just consider the OMEMO situation for non roster conversations
marc
Ge0rG, but rolling out an easy-xmpp feature which has some fallback scenarios just confuses users IMO
Ge0rG
marc: so I had to decide whether to have the manual fallback when the inviting client is offline or to have manual fallback until all server operators have rolled out a module that hasn't been written yet.
marc
Ge0rG, and that's why I'm inviting "my" users to "my" server ;)
Ge0rG
marc: maybe your users are smart enough to understand what happens if their client is suddenly asking them to choose an account for every single new conversation.
Ge0rG
marc: I'm writing protocol for the general case, and let me tell you that multi account is always a UX nightmare
marc
Ge0rG, don't get the "choose an account for every single conversation" hint
marc
Ge0rG, what I'm saying is that if we implement user-invitation (which is server-side) we shouldn't use a XEP which is client-side and has problems with multiple clients
marc
It should require/implement server-side PARS as well
Ge0rG
marc: I'm all for server - side PARS, and the inviter should use that if it's available. But I'm realistic, and so far there are zero servers supporting it
Ge0rG
marc: client side PARS, on the other hand, is already working for thousands of users
marc
Ge0rG, yes and I don't say that it is useless but it doesn't fit my "easy-xmpp" understanding
marc
User invitation should be always the same workflow for end-users
Ge0rG
marc: most people have an always on mobile client, and I'm sure that most PARS invitations will happen in person. You are describing a corner case that I'm well aware of, and I've chosen the trade-off I consider most suitable for the reality of federated xmpp
Ge0rG
marc: I agree.
Ge0rG
marc: now tell me how to solve this problem?
marc
Ge0rG, user-invitation XEP must implement server-side PARS
Ge0rG
"always use my server" is not a solution because it breaks federation and comes with significant transition cost
marc
Because we have to store an invitation token anyway
marc
Ge0rG, oh you mean this problem
Ge0rG
marc: and how are you going to roll this out to all servers?
Ge0rG
marc: I'm talking about PARS only now
marc
Solution: Public XMPP server list with high requirements regarding supported XEPs
Ge0rG
marc: that will not fix existing servers
jonasw
and existing users
marc
Ge0rG, correct
Ge0rG
marc: so it's not a solution
marc
If a server operator don't want to upgrade features we can not solve it...
Ge0rG
marc: we can easily add support for server side token generation to PARS, eg using your proposed protocol
jonasw
we can if there’s a client-side fallback
marc
The solution can not be to implement everything on client side ;)
Ge0rG
marc: except that I have a client side solution working in the 90% case.
marc
Existing users on a bad server will change to other services if "basic" features don't work
jonasw
marc, no
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marc
Ge0rG, 90 % coverage is not enough for nice UX like for WhatsApp/...
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Ge0rG
marc: and you propose a perfect solution that will work for maybe 20% of users, once implemented and rolled out
Ge0rG
marc [10:53]:
> Existing users on a bad server will change to other services if "basic" features don't work
Now THIS is really bad for UX, because people will change to WhatsApp instead
marc
Ge0rG, there are a lot of feature which require server-side support
marc
It is _not_ a solution to build workarounds on client side IMO
jonasw
Ge0rG, ha, that’s what I was going to say
jonasw
marc, I think for robustness, a protocol which can work in both cases would be neat
Ge0rG
marc: please pretty please read up the PARS thread on standards@. You are repeating arguments from a year ago
marc
Ge0rG, We don't need to repeat the discussion ;)
Ge0rG
I'm out, got some appointments to make.
Ge0rG
marc: then provide new arguments to convince me. On standards@
jonasw
good luck
marc
No, that would take too much time ;)
jonasw
marc, discussion on standards@ is vtial
jonasw
discussion here in xsf@ is transient and will get lost
marc
jonasw, to me it quite obvious that the whole XMPP thing doesn't work if we have good server support
marc
This problem needs to be fixed
jonasw
*"we don’t have good server support" you mean?
jonasw
I think we can blame MySQL
jonasw
right, Zash? ^
marc
And if server operators don't want to upgrade, users must change to better servers which have feature which a "standard" nowadays
jonasw
except that changing servers is a huge PITA
marc
jonasw, there is no other solution for some features
marc
"You want to share picture in a group chat? Sorry, that's not supported by your server but you can send the picture to each individual contact via Jingle!!1! Have a nice day"
jonasw
Ge0rG, actually, it might not be the worst thing if PARS requires server support. Prevents new people from flocking to unmaintained servers.
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Ge0rG
marc: except that users won't be able to find out (or care) that it's their server's fault. They will blame xmpp and just move to FaceApp.
jonasw
or they might not understand that they can even switch servers
Ge0rG
marc: ever tried to migrate your roster to a different server?
marc
correct
marc
Ge0rG, no
Ge0rG
marc: you should take some time to shoulder surf xmpp novices
Ge0rG
Really.
Ge0rG
And then come back and ask about enforcing server transition
marc
But if I can share pictures in a group chat I would spend some time on it ;)
Ge0rG&
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marc
Ge0rG, I know a lot of XMPP novices, really
marc
Ge0rG, that's why I know what sucks about XMPP and XMPP clients ;)
marc
And that's why I want an easy user invitation process
marc
Not because I want to invite some pro-users...
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jonasw
Ge0rG, given that jdev@ is flaky, care to elaborate on:
13:58:10 Ge0rG> Zash: csi:active won't help, for multiple reasons
09:51:02 jonasw> Ge0rG, I think Zash meant csn:active, at least that’s what I assumed. Would that help?
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pep.
> jonasw> or they might not understand that they can even switch servers
Strictly speaking they can't. It's a new account with new contacts etc.
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Zash
Acrynoms with shared prefixes? Meh
jonasw
csi is not csn :)
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Zash
Should have just written "an active chat state" or somesuch
jonasw
also, xmpp.net reaches its resurrection
Zash
Dun dun DUN
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jonaswputs away the arcane scrolls of necromancy
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jonasw
we might wanna import Holgers database
pep.
Wut, one second I could see Zash's avatar, and the next second it was gone. And now it's back. Conversations?!
jonasw
maybe zash left for a second?
pep.
Zash you can't do that to me
Zash
My server was restarted
pep.
Nonetheless, the client doesn't need the contact to always be online right?
pep.
Or maybe that's a feature
jonasw
I guess it’s a feature
pep.
But then I can't differentiate with people with no avatars
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pep.
Or people I can't see the avatar
Zash
153 quirk probably
Zash
Can't know the avatar hash without presence
pep.
Cache until next presence?
jonasw
now I can’t stop playing with my own xmpp.net instance
pep.
jonasw: nice :)
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jonasw
Holger, do you happen to know what’s needed to make xmppoke work with .onion domains?
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Zash
Is there any hint of SOCKS support in there?
jonasw
it seems to have worked with .onion before, at least
Zash
That and a local Tor instance ought to do it
Zash
Ah yes, onions.lua
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jonasw
ah, it assumes a SOCKS at port 9150
jonasw
let’s do that
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pep.
jonasw, wouldn't it depend on the machine being able to resolve .onions? and just that
jonasw
Zash, any clue why conn:receive(5) in line 60 of onions.lua (<https://bitbucket.org/xnyhps/xmppoke/src/fbf8af64f6611b32bbc820a18643333d3459fb28/onions.lua?at=default&fileviewer=file-view-default>) would return nil?
pep.
Ah, socks, hmm
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jonasw
now it magically works
jonasw
timeout, probably
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Guus
is jabber.org unavailable?
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jonasw
looking for a victim to test? feel free to target zombofant.net
Guus
no, conversations warned me that it can't connect.
jonasw
ah
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jonasw
test takes suspiciously long, too
Guus
https://status.conversations.im/
Guus
sees it fail too
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jonasw
> Error: Connection failed.
Guus
I've left a message for intosi, who's the only one I know administers that domain.
Guus
oh
Guus
now it's back?
jonasw
sorted out tor support in xmppoke-docker, and also tested version querying
jonasw
Guus, it’s been flaky all day
jonasw
now I realize that jdev@ is at jabber.org :)
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edhelas
I'm thinking of publising vcards and avatars in a specific item of pubsub nodes
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Zash
vCard4 and 84?
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Flow
Should one send a delivery receipt if we load a message with a receipt request from MAM?
Flow
I tend towards 'nope'
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Ge0rG
Flow: what about having the MAM archive sending acks?
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Flow
Ge0rG, hmm possibly worth considering
Ge0rG
Except it's not what the sender would expect
lovetox
Flow, not instantly, first wait if another client of yours has acked the receipt
Flow
Ge0rG, Is it
lovetox
if not you should definitly send one
Flow
lovetox, hu? How do you know that another client acked the receipt? Why does it matter?
Ge0rG
Flow: in a perfect world, mam would contain the acks as well
lovetox
becauise the receipt is in mam
jonasw
> An entity MUST NOT send an ack message when a user views messages that have been archived or stored on the client or the server (e.g., via Message Archiving (XEP-0136) [8]), only when first receiving the message.
jonasw
(XEP-0184)
Flow
Ge0rG, right, in an perfect world, but you can not count on it
Flow
jonasw, hmm that 'MUST' feels to strong here
jonasw
not my idea
jonasw
:)
lovetox
jonasw, that does not touch the case in my opinion
jonasw
lovetox, I agree
Ge0rG
I'm sending acks to archive messages, because I care about ux
lovetox
as i said, only if another client didnt ack the message already
jonasw
I think querying the MAM for catch-up counts as "first receiving"
jonasw
this is specifically not "user views messages that have been archived✎
jonasw
this is specifically not "user views messages that have been archived" ✏
Ge0rG
jonasw: you can't know if you are the first one
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Flow
jonasw, I see a slight issue here that you may end up ack'ing the wrong message because the sender does re-use IDs
jonasw
Ge0rG, you know when you, as the client entity, first receive a message.
jonasw
Flow, that’s the senders fault
Ge0rG
Right
Flow
can you blame him for standard compliant behavior?
jonasw
I will always blame people who don’t use strong random numbers for message IDs :)
lovetox
if he wants receipts he should care about IDs
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Ge0rG
Flow: you can blame them for incorrectly applying acks
Flow
Ge0rG, blame whom?
Ge0rG
Flow: the sending entity
Flow
ok, you would be a hell of a laywer
Flow
Note to self for XMPP 2.0: The server should always assign unique IDs to outgoing stanzas and tell the ID the client. A MAM-like mechaninsm is possibly mandatory. And message 'type' names are not named after use-cases but after their routing semantics
Ge0rG
Flow: I'm sure that 0184 mandates sufficient randomness
Flow
Ge0rG, can't find it
Ge0rG
Flow: I want routing semantics decoupled from message type
Ge0rG
I'm on mobile right now
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jonasw
Ge0rG, 184 does not require any entropy
jonasw
it only reqiures that the id attribute i sset
Ge0rG
Somebody should fix it then
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jonasw
#fixing-a-draft
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Zash
> Warning: file_get_contents("http://xmppoke:1337"): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /var/www/html/submit.php on line 42
Zash
Hmm
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jonasw
Zash, ah, iteam is working on it again?
jonasw
that was a known problem a few hours ago, then guus had to leave and reversed the proxy to show the static redirection again.
Zash
Duno, doesn't look like a redirect atm
jonasw
yeah
jonasw
I guess somebody is working on it
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Guus
working on it right now
Guus
should perhaps maybe work now.
jonasw
testing :)
jonasw
throwing a few domains from the public server directory into it
Guus
Yeah, I'm running a client and a server test too
Guus
ok, off to feed the kids
jonasw
looks good so far
jonasw
thanks all
Guus
I'll also be leaving in ~1hour
Guus
if we need to roll back, someone will need to tell me before then.
Guus
so give it a couple of tries please :)
jonasw
I’ll post to members@
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Guus
but, this looks pretty good so far. Thanks for reviving it, jonasw!
jonasw
:)
Guus
jonasw: it'd be good to verify that it a) automatically deploys an updated dockerhub repo, and b) doesn't wipe all old data when it does.
Guus
perhaps you can invoke a change?
jonasw
Guus, on which repository?
Guus
it checks all three
jonasw
okay
Guus
every 5 minutes
jonasw
will push an empty commit or something
Guus
something that's visible, perhaps?
jonasw
mmm
Guus
so that we can check if it actually got updated
jonasw
seems ok
Guus
yeah, first results are pouring in
Guus
nice!
jonasw
we should avoid updates on the xmppoke thing itself though
Guus
how's that?
jonasw
it kills the pokers
SamWhited
Is this an XSF project maintained by the iteam now?
jonasw
Guus, build queued
Guus
I got to run
Guus
cool, tx
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jonasw
Guus, Bad gateway?
jonasw
Guus, I think the autopull went wrong
jonasw
or it takes waaay too long
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mathieui
yah, bad gateway
jonasw
blame Link Mauve?
mathieui
always
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pep.
Same here. Link Mauve :@
Guus
I manually triggered what cron does - now it runs again
Guus
unsure what went wrong
jonasw
logs?
jonasw
it also seems to have killed all tests which were in progress
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Guus
yeah, upon redeploy it kills all docker instances and restart each
Guus
no time to look at logs - need to run now.
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Ge0rG
> yeah, upon redeploy it kills all docker instances and restart each
I love Docker more and more every day
mathieui
doesn’t it kill the containers rather than docker itself?
mathieui
containers are supposed to be as stateless as possible, so it makes sense to kill them on redeploy
Ge0rG
I wouldn't be very sad if someone killed Docker.
mathieui
it’s a useful tool
Ge0rG
It's another level of abstraction added to our already overly complex tech stack
pep.
Ge0rG, s/docker/container solutions/ ?
Ge0rG
pep.: Yeah, all of them.
pep.
What about VMs
mathieui
runc (or even containerd) itself is quite a bit less complex than the docker ecosystem
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jonasw
mathieui, the issue is that the poke processes which are in progress get killed
jonasw
those are stateful
jonasw
the best we could do is probably look into the DB and re-start all pokes which are marked as "running"
mathieui
a bit of a pain
mathieui
jonasw, but do you need the poke upgrades?
moparisthebest
jonasw: I prefer a stop running new jobs and wait for existing ones to finish approach
moparisthebest
To be fair for this who really cares
moparisthebest
Is that going to be updated so regularly that it matters...
SamWhited
How are you killing docker? You can tell it to send a signal so you can do graceful shutdown
SamWhited
docker kill --signal=SIGINT or something to that effect
mathieui
SamWhited, I guess that’s left to docker-compose
mathieui
it updates the compoe stack and by doing so it kills the previous container and spins a new one✎
mathieui
it updates the compose stack and by doing so it kills the previous container and spins a new one ✏
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SamWhited
docker-compose sends a sigterm already, you just have to respect that IIRC
SamWhited
We use docker-compose heavily at work and everything gracefully restarts fine; I don't remember having to do anything special other than handle signals
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daniel
can I get some upvotes on HN? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15892761
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Ge0rG
daniel: I've heard you need to go through the "new items" page for an upvote to count properly...
daniel
maybe they just tell you that so you don't use your army of sock puppet
Ge0rG
Maybe, yes.
Ge0rG
But I've upvoted now
daniel
thanks
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Ge0rG
I like how it's called a Jabber / XMPP client...
daniel
and not a "Conversations client, compatible with and certified by the Conversations network"?
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Ge0rG
Approved by the Conversations Council of Elders?
Zash
> avoids using GCM
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Ge0rG
Is it legitimate to offer a "Show password" field on MUC passwords?
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jonasw
SamWhited, a graceful shutdown for poke would take up to 15 minutes
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SouL
Ge0rG: what are you thinking on?
Ge0rG
SouL: I've replaced the "Repeat passwords" fields for account config/creation with a "[X] Show password" checkbox. Now I ponder if I should add that checkbox to MUC dialogs
Ge0rG
MUCs that have a password
SouL
Ge0rG: Why not? I think you did pretty well going in that direction.
Ge0rG
right now, it's not possible to see a MUC password at all
Ge0rG
the other dialogs only allow seeing a password you just enetered, not one that has been there already
SouL
Just to tell you a secret, I'm more than glad that Firefox allows me to check all saved passwords :)
SouL
I'm fucked if someone steals my laptop though
SouL
But it is a feature I would really like to have
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pep.
SouL, you have a master password hopefully right?
SouL
And it makes sense, if you want to invite someone to a MUC you have been always joined but you don't remember that password.
SouL
pep.: I also hope
SouL
Haha
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Zash
Can you start a new container without killing the old one? And like, redirect stuff to the new one until the old one is doen with its things
pep.
I don't know if docker itself can do that.
pep.
I mean make the port bound to a new container
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SamWhited
jonasw: is that a problem?
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pep.
SamWhited, can you have docker wait that long for a process to come down?
SamWhited
pep.: I think it does by default if you use docker-compose or docker kill
pep.
Ok
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ThurahT
Ge0rG: I get kicked out from xmpp@y.i since the last day or so. Says my JID is malformed and then gives me code 110. Never seen that before. Did you change something?
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Zash
> ThurahT has left the room (Kicked: jid malformed)
Zash
ThurahT: I believe it's because someone has the nick "uc 🕴🏻" there, and your server doesn't like that
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Zash
So, unicode madness. The proper reaction is to lie down and cry.
ThurahT
haha, wat. My server is jabber.org..
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Zash
Unicode Madness!
ThurahT
indeed..
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ThurahT
guess that is the final nail in the coffin for using j.o with the spam and all. I'll remake my bookmarks with another server.
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Ge0rG
ThurahT: come to yax.im - we have World Class spam protection
pep.
jonasw, I get "Error: test failed." :(
ThurahT
will do
pep.
(xmpp.net)
pep.
Certificate score and protocol score seem to be completed. Then it continues loading, waited an hour, refreshed and "Error: Test failed."