XSF Discussion - 2017-12-14

  1. Ge0rG has left
  2. jjrh has left
  3. lskdjf has left
  4. lskdjf has left
  5. jere has joined
  6. lskdjf has left
  7. jere has joined
  8. lskdjf has left
  9. moparisthebest has joined
  10. moparisthebest has joined
  11. lskdjf has left
  12. jjrh has left
  13. lskdjf has left
  14. lskdjf has left
  15. ralphm has joined
  16. lskdjf has left
  17. Ge0rG has left
  18. Ge0rG has left
  19. jjrh has left
  20. jjrh has left
  21. ralphm has left
  22. ralphm has joined
  23. lskdjf has left
  24. lumi has joined
  25. lskdjf has left
  26. lskdjf has left
  27. lskdjf has left
  28. lskdjf has left
  29. waqas has left
  30. jere has joined
  31. Ge0rG has left
  32. SamWhited has left
  33. Tobias has left
  34. Tobias has joined
  35. jjrh has left
  36. lskdjf has left
  37. Ge0rG has left
  38. lskdjf has left
  39. tux has left
  40. tux has joined
  41. nyco has left
  42. nyco has joined
  43. Zash has left
  44. Zash has left
  45. daniel has left
  46. daniel has joined
  47. daniel has left
  48. daniel has joined
  49. jjrh has left
  50. daniel has left
  51. jjrh has left
  52. jere has joined
  53. daniel has joined
  54. arc has left
  55. arc has joined
  56. daniel has left
  57. arc has left
  58. arc has joined
  59. jjrh has left
  60. jjrh has left
  61. daniel has joined
  62. jere has joined
  63. daniel has left
  64. daniel has joined
  65. jjrh has left
  66. mrkiko has left
  67. mrkiko has joined
  68. lskdjf has joined
  69. jjrh has left
  70. daniel has left
  71. daniel has joined
  72. la|r|ma has left
  73. jjrh has left
  74. arc has left
  75. arc has joined
  76. uc has joined
  77. moparisthebest can, or should I say do, any XEPs define new stanzas ?
  78. daniel has left
  79. daniel has joined
  80. efrit has left
  81. SamWhited moparisthebest: no, and no. You can define payloads to be transmitted in existing stanzas or new unroutable top level elements, but not new routable stanzas with their own delivery semantics.
  82. daniel has left
  83. daniel has joined
  84. moparisthebest that makes sense but I wasn't absolutely positive
  85. moparisthebest thanks SamWhited
  86. la|r|ma has left
  87. SamWhited has left
  88. SamWhited has left
  89. la|r|ma has joined
  90. SamWhited has left
  91. uc has left
  92. zinid has left
  93. zinid has joined
  94. waqas has joined
  95. daniel has left
  96. daniel has joined
  97. @Alacer has joined
  98. daniel has left
  99. daniel has joined
  100. daniel has left
  101. @Alacer has left
  102. daniel has joined
  103. waqas has left
  104. waqas has joined
  105. waqas has left
  106. daniel has left
  107. SamWhited has left
  108. zinid has left
  109. zinid has joined
  110. daniel has joined
  111. daniel has left
  112. daniel has joined
  113. daniel has left
  114. daniel has joined
  115. @Alacer has left
  116. @Alacer has joined
  117. daniel has left
  118. nyco has left
  119. daniel has joined
  120. nyco has joined
  121. @Alacer has left
  122. @Alacer has joined
  123. ralphm has joined
  124. valo has left
  125. valo has joined
  126. Tobias has left
  127. Tobias has joined
  128. daniel has left
  129. daniel has joined
  130. daniel has left
  131. daniel has joined
  132. moparisthebest has joined
  133. zinid has left
  134. ralphm has joined
  135. Ge0rG moparisthebest: if you define a new routable stanza type, you'll have to change all existing clients and servers
  136. uc has left
  137. uc has joined
  138. marc has joined
  139. daniel has left
  140. ralphm has joined
  141. Ge0rG has left
  142. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  143. daniel has left
  144. daniel has left
  145. daniel has joined
  146. ralphm has joined
  147. tim@boese-ban.de has left
  148. Ge0rG has joined
  149. Kev has joined
  150. Steve Kille has left
  151. Steve Kille has joined
  152. ralphm has joined
  153. daniel has left
  154. daniel has joined
  155. daniel has left
  156. daniel has joined
  157. Kev has left
  158. efrit has joined
  159. jonasw has left
  160. daniel has left
  161. nyco has left
  162. nyco has joined
  163. daniel has left
  164. jubalh has joined
  165. Zash has joined
  166. Steve Kille has left
  167. ralphm has joined
  168. ralphm has joined
  169. jonasw daniel, please re-send the council minutes to standards@
  170. Kev has joined
  171. daniel has left
  172. nyco has left
  173. nyco has joined
  174. goffi has joined
  175. ralphm has joined
  176. valo has left
  177. valo has joined
  178. Tobias has joined
  179. Tobias has joined
  180. ralphm has joined
  181. @Alacer has left
  182. daniel has left
  183. daniel has joined
  184. Zash has left
  185. Zash has left
  186. Zash has left
  187. Zash has left
  188. Zash has left
  189. Zash has left
  190. Zash has left
  191. Zash has left
  192. @Alacer has joined
  193. dwd has joined
  194. efrit has left
  195. ralphm has joined
  196. @Alacer has left
  197. ralphm has left
  198. @Alacer has joined
  199. jubalh has left
  200. arc has left
  201. arc has joined
  202. arc has left
  203. arc has joined
  204. arc has left
  205. arc has joined
  206. Guus Fellow board members: I've mentioned this in mail last week, but didn't get any ack, so just in case it was missed: I won't be able to make todays meeting.
  207. ralphm has joined
  208. jcbrand has joined
  209. debacle has joined
  210. Ge0rG has left
  211. mimi89999 has left
  212. Ge0rG has left
  213. Ge0rG has left
  214. Zash has left
  215. lskdjf has joined
  216. daniel has left
  217. daniel has left
  218. daniel has joined
  219. Flow dwd: "I deliberately use a fixed resource string here because it makes debugging much easier.", so what do you think about bind 2.0 not allowing for that?
  220. dwd Flow, Pretty sure you know the answer to that. :-)
  221. daniel has left
  222. Zash Prosody doesn't initiate piggybacking, everything is weird
  223. Zash has left
  224. ralphm has joined
  225. Flow dwd: I can only guess. I still hope we could give clients the ability to provide a resource prefix when using bind 2.0
  226. jonasw I don’t see a use in a prefix. It can’t be used for addressing, which would be my main use-case for stable resources.
  227. Kev Flow / dwd: Except that the split resource thing actually means that in this case it's just as easy.
  228. Kev jonasw: Debugging is easier if you have friendly parts to the resource, at least.
  229. Flow jonasw, it's not about stable resources, but as debugging aid
  230. Flow Kev, didn't get that, sorry. It's just as easy was *what*?
  231. Kev It wasn't important.
  232. Flow Kev, It still would be nice to understand what you meant
  233. Kev I think that a resource of kev@isode/client1/{random} is as easy to debug as kev@isode/client1 in terms of grepping and following logs. While kev@isode/{random} does definitely make it difficult.
  234. Kev Or more difficult, anyway.
  235. Kev My bind2 plan is still the split-resource thing we discussed at the summit, to allow for this.
  236. Ge0rG But what was discussed at the summit is `kev@isode/{random}/{morerandom}`, which is just crazy.
  237. Guus I think what was discussed was `kev@isode/{freeform-butpredictable}/{random}
  238. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure the consensus was kev@isode/{client-generated-uuid}/{server-generated-uuid} with a strong implication of those horrible 128-bit-hex-blobs
  239. dwd I have to admit I'm worried that all jids will now begin "kev@isode".
  240. dwd WE ARE ALL KEVS NOW.
  241. Ge0rG dwd: the double-UUID namespace would allow for a conflict-less mapping of all XMPP users onto kev@isode, at least.
  242. Guus you can't have enough Kevs.
  243. jonasw Guus, the proper way to add me to Summit is to simply edit the wiki page?
  244. dwd But anyway. I understand that there is benefit in some implementations to enforce a server-written portion of the resource. I don't think this benefit is applicable to all implementations.
  245. Guus Ge0rG: I was under the impression that we discussed a combination of a human-recognizable identifier (for easy debugging/grepping), and a random part (to prevent predictable full jids). But then again, I'm enjoying the sight of a new castle every 7 seconds or so.
  246. goffi has left
  247. jonasw (Guus: this is the wiki page I’m talking about: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 )
  248. Guus jonasw: and show up in Brussels. :)
  249. jonasw well, yes
  250. dwd And right now, I'm more concerned about fragile clients and misbehaving servers when trying to join chatrooms.
  251. Ge0rG Guus: I'm solving that for many years now by using `"yaxim.%08x" % uint.random()`
  252. Guus jonasw: there's a MUC and a mailinglist you might want to subscribe to.
  253. Ge0rG dwd: welcome to MUC hell.
  254. jonasw Guus, URIs?
  255. jonasw (ugh, yet-another-MUC, I’m running out of tabs!)
  256. Guus summit@
  257. Guus summit@muc.xmpp.org
  258. Guus summit@xmpp.org for the mailing list.
  259. jonasw thanks
  260. dwd Ge0rG, Well, the actual bug here is in S2S routing, not in MUC per se.
  261. jonasw Guus, is there a recommended check-in/check-out date if one wants to participate in the Summit?
  262. jonasw like, "latest recommended check-in, earliest possible check-out to get all of summit"
  263. jonasw e.g. would it be sufficient to arrive on the 1st, or is that too close?
  264. jonasw same for checkout
  265. ralphm has joined
  266. daniel has left
  267. Ge0rG dwd: I'm sure that the problem is triggered by s2s issues, but it's still a shortcoming of the MUC protocol
  268. Guus jonasw: having attended only once, I'm not much of an expert, but last year, the summit was two full days. From the Netherlands, I arrived in the morning, and was able to attend the entire day, then spent four days to also be able to visit FOSDEM. I think I travelled back on Monday, to catch all of FOSDEM.
  269. jonasw I see
  270. Guus jonasw: maybe take further questions to summit@ ? :)
  271. jonasw soooo maaaany muuucs :)
  272. jonasw but sure
  273. jcbrand has left
  274. arc has left
  275. arc has joined
  276. la|r|ma has joined
  277. ralphm has joined
  278. dwd Ge0rG, What's the shortcoming? If traffic is dropped due to a bug, and a client relies on perfect network conditions, then I think blaming the protocol is a little excessive.
  279. dwd Ge0rG, Not saying I think MUC is perfect, but I don't think it's the MUC protocol at fault in this instance.
  280. Ge0rG dwd: the MUC protocol lacks provisions to test whether the client is still connected and to restore connectivity. The existing workarounds are very complicated and unreliable
  281. lumi has joined
  282. dwd Ge0rG, Sure. But the sequence I showed occured on initial client connect. The client *knows* that it's disconnected from the chatroom (the MUC might not, but we have a simple atomic solution there).
  283. sonny has left
  284. sonny has joined
  285. Ge0rG dwd: in that case I'm going to read your mail now
  286. la|r|ma has joined
  287. ralphm has joined
  288. tux has joined
  289. lumi has left
  290. goffi has joined
  291. Ge0rG has joined
  292. daniel has left
  293. Ge0rG has left
  294. Neustradamus has left
  295. goffi has left
  296. goffi has joined
  297. Syndace has left
  298. Syndace has joined
  299. ralphm has joined
  300. daniel has left
  301. daniel has left
  302. daniel has left
  303. ralphm has joined
  304. daniel has left
  305. Holger has left
  306. daniel has left
  307. pep. has left
  308. lumi has joined
  309. jcbrand has left
  310. daniel has left
  311. jcbrand has joined
  312. daniel has left
  313. daniel has left
  314. Ge0rG has left
  315. ralphm has joined
  316. daniel has left
  317. daniel has left
  318. daniel has left
  319. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  320. ralphm bangs gavel
  321. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  322. nyco hey
  323. ralphm Hi! Who do we have?
  324. nyco many
  325. ralphm MattJ, Guus, Martin?
  326. Guus ralphm: in absent as announced
  327. nyco Guus said he can't be there
  328. MattJ Hey
  329. ralphm I missed that
  330. ralphm has joined
  331. daniel has left
  332. jjrh has left
  333. ralphm So we are lacking two. I am a bit worried about appointing a Chair for this Board's term. Since we haven't been complete since the start of the term, we haven't been able to do this, and we have to figure out how to resolve this. I don't think hoping we are complete a next meeting is a good strategy. Ideas welcome
  334. Kev Ask for volunteers on-list. Vote at the next meeting. Anyone missing has 7 days to vote.
  335. jcbrand has left
  336. Alex has joined
  337. Kev Ideally in the new year, in case people are going to be absent due to the holidays.
  338. Kev But something like this :)
  339. MattJ Yeah, I'd be fine with that
  340. ralphm Ok, I'll draft an e-mail about this
  341. nyco let's schedule a dedicated meeting, specifically for this, at an agreed time & date
  342. ralphm nyco: we do. It is called a board meeting
  343. nyco I mean at a different time
  344. nyco one that is specific, short, dedicated, efficient
  345. ralphm come on, we tried to agree upon a date for the last few meetings and didn't get everyone to respond (in time)
  346. ralphm These meetings were short (30min) and efficient.
  347. MattJ Yeah, this is the time and day that everyone agreed on
  348. ralphm Ok. Given the rest of the agenda and the lack of 2 people, I suggest we adjourn.
  349. ralphm I'll send that e-mail and we meet in +1
  350. ralphm W
  351. MattJ wfm
  352. MattJ Thanks ralphm
  353. jmpman has joined
  354. ralphm bangs gavel
  355. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  356. stefandxm has left
  357. daniel has left
  358. daniel has left
  359. jcbrand has joined
  360. jmpman has joined
  361. daniel has left
  362. jjrh has left
  363. jjrh has left
  364. daniel has left
  365. jjrh has left
  366. lovetox has joined
  367. moparisthebest has joined
  368. daniel has left
  369. daniel has left
  370. daniel has left
  371. daniel has left
  372. daniel has left
  373. daniel has left
  374. daniel has left
  375. daniel has left
  376. daniel has left
  377. lskdjf has left
  378. lskdjf has joined
  379. daniel has left
  380. jmpman has joined
  381. Ge0rG has joined
  382. daniel has left
  383. jmpman has joined
  384. daniel has left
  385. stefandxm has joined
  386. daniel has left
  387. daniel has left
  388. Ge0rG has joined
  389. Ge0rG has left
  390. Ge0rG has joined
  391. daniel has left
  392. daniel has joined
  393. dwd Martin's ill. Or as he put it this morning, developing a closer relationship with the toilet. Sorry, should have passed that on.
  394. Zash Question: Why does the new board and council go "live" right after elections?
  395. nyco has left
  396. Guus Zash: the bylaws state that an elected official holds office until a successor has been appointed (paraphrased).
  397. Guus I don't know why that was put in.
  398. Guus Having more procedure would add complexity. If there's benefit to it, I'd be open to changes.
  399. Guus why are you asking?
  400. remko has joined
  401. Zash Wondering about having a transition period to ease handoff.
  402. Guus I'm not sure if it'd meaningfully ease things. The added complexity might outweigh it.
  403. Zash But suddenly I'm unsure if any of the orgs I've been involved had that or not.
  404. Guus (also, the current board differs with just one person from last years board - not sure if there is the need for much transitioning)
  405. jonasw dwd, ugh, I hope Martin gets well soon!
  406. Zash has left
  407. Alex has left
  408. Alex has joined
  409. Alex has left
  410. Alex has joined
  411. jubalh has left
  412. jmpman has joined
  413. Kev I don't think you need concurrent or delayed responsibilities to do handover.
  414. Kev It's not like a job where you leave the building.
  415. Alex has left
  416. jmpman has joined
  417. efrit has joined
  418. jere has joined
  419. ralphm has left
  420. ralphm has joined
  421. jcbrand has left
  422. jcbrand has joined
  423. jmpman has joined
  424. jmpman has joined
  425. daniel has left
  426. daniel has left
  427. arc has left
  428. arc has joined
  429. arc has left
  430. arc has joined
  431. jubalh has joined
  432. jcbrand has left
  433. ralphm has left
  434. Ge0rG has joined
  435. goffi has left
  436. daniel has left
  437. dwd Kev, I have pondered, in the past, suggesting that we stagger elections though, to try and maintain some sort of continuity. But not enough to actually propose anything concrete.
  438. nyco has left
  439. efrit has left
  440. daniel has left
  441. Zash Like, elect half the board at a time?
  442. Ge0rG We have that process with the XSF Membership.
  443. sonny has left
  444. sonny has joined
  445. sonny has joined
  446. sonny has joined
  447. Tobias we do indeed
  448. daniel has left
  449. sonny has left
  450. sonny has joined
  451. Ge0rG has joined
  452. sonny has joined
  453. sonny has joined
  454. jcbrand has joined
  455. jcbrand has left
  456. jcbrand has joined
  457. jere has joined
  458. @Alacer has left
  459. jcbrand has left
  460. moparisthebest it wouldn't be bad to kind of interleave them with member votes, that would actually bring number of votes per year down
  461. moparisthebest like we vote for members 4 times a year, we could vote for council/board 2 of those times also
  462. Ge0rG but then we only vote for half the board.
  463. Ge0rG the process will be... challenging
  464. moparisthebest why?
  465. @Alacer has joined
  466. daniel has left
  467. sezuan has joined
  468. Alex has joined
  469. sezuan has left
  470. sezuan has joined
  471. nyco 2.5 humans?
  472. moparisthebest I think we could divide it sanely :P
  473. tux has left
  474. Guus I'm not opposed to any of this, but I'm not seeing real benefit either.
  475. jubalh has left
  476. jcbrand has joined
  477. tux has left
  478. lumi has joined
  479. daniel has left
  480. Alex has left
  481. nyco well, refreshing half the team mid-term is a good practice, generally given we are short on resource and engagement, that would generate onboarding overhead
  482. nyco has left
  483. ralphm has left
  484. ralphm has left
  485. jubalh has joined
  486. ralphm has joined
  487. Tobias has joined
  488. SamWhited has joined
  489. Kev has left
  490. jubalh has left
  491. Tobias has left
  492. jcbrand has left
  493. Tobias has joined
  494. Tobias has left
  495. Tobias has joined
  496. daniel has left
  497. vanitasvitae has left
  498. vanitasvitae has joined
  499. ralphm has joined
  500. daniel has left
  501. marc has left
  502. marc has left
  503. jjrh has left
  504. jjrh has left
  505. daniel has left
  506. jjrh has left
  507. jjrh has left
  508. @Alacer has left
  509. zinid has left
  510. Alex has joined
  511. jjrh has left
  512. jjrh has left
  513. jjrh has left
  514. jjrh has left
  515. daniel has left
  516. daniel has left
  517. daniel has left
  518. tux has joined
  519. daniel has left
  520. SouL has joined
  521. zinid has left
  522. sonny has left
  523. sonny has joined
  524. sezuan has left
  525. tux has joined
  526. ralphm has joined
  527. tux has joined
  528. jubalh has joined
  529. tux has left
  530. arc has left
  531. arc has joined
  532. jubalh has left
  533. arc has left
  534. arc has joined
  535. daniel has left
  536. jjrh has left
  537. tux has joined
  538. pep. has joined
  539. ralphm has joined
  540. jjrh has left
  541. daniel has left
  542. ralphm has joined
  543. jere has joined
  544. daniel has left
  545. jjrh has left
  546. arc has left
  547. arc has joined
  548. zinid has left
  549. arc has left
  550. arc has joined
  551. tux has joined
  552. jjrh has left
  553. jubalh has joined
  554. ralphm has joined
  555. tux has joined
  556. sonny has left
  557. sonny has joined
  558. ralphm has joined
  559. efrit has joined
  560. jubalh has left
  561. remko has left
  562. ralphm has left
  563. jjrh has left
  564. Zash has left
  565. moparisthebest has joined
  566. ralphm has joined
  567. jere has joined
  568. arc has left
  569. arc has joined
  570. SamWhited has left
  571. lovetox has left
  572. arc has left
  573. arc has joined
  574. ralphm has left
  575. arc has left
  576. arc has joined
  577. Alex has left
  578. ralphm has joined
  579. ralphm has left
  580. ralphm has joined
  581. lskdjf has left
  582. lskdjf has left
  583. uc has joined
  584. lskdjf has left
  585. lskdjf has left
  586. uc has joined
  587. uc has joined
  588. Tobias has left
  589. uc has joined
  590. uc has joined
  591. lskdjf has left
  592. Alex has joined
  593. lskdjf has joined
  594. uc has joined
  595. lskdjf has left
  596. lskdjf has left
  597. marc has joined
  598. uc has joined
  599. pep. has left
  600. uc has joined