XSF Discussion - 2017-12-14

  1. Ge0rG has left

  2. jjrh has left

  3. lskdjf has left

  4. lskdjf has left

  5. jere has joined

  6. lskdjf has left

  7. jere has joined

  8. lskdjf has left

  9. moparisthebest has joined

  10. moparisthebest has joined

  11. lskdjf has left

  12. jjrh has left

  13. lskdjf has left

  14. lskdjf has left

  15. ralphm has joined

  16. lskdjf has left

  17. Ge0rG has left

  18. Ge0rG has left

  19. jjrh has left

  20. jjrh has left

  21. ralphm has left

  22. ralphm has joined

  23. lskdjf has left

  24. lumi has joined

  25. lskdjf has left

  26. lskdjf has left

  27. lskdjf has left

  28. lskdjf has left

  29. waqas has left

  30. jere has joined

  31. Ge0rG has left

  32. SamWhited has left

  33. Tobias has left

  34. Tobias has joined

  35. jjrh has left

  36. lskdjf has left

  37. Ge0rG has left

  38. lskdjf has left

  39. tux has left

  40. tux has joined

  41. nyco has left

  42. nyco has joined

  43. Zash has left

  44. Zash has left

  45. daniel has left

  46. daniel has joined

  47. daniel has left

  48. daniel has joined

  49. jjrh has left

  50. daniel has left

  51. jjrh has left

  52. jere has joined

  53. daniel has joined

  54. arc has left

  55. arc has joined

  56. daniel has left

  57. arc has left

  58. arc has joined

  59. jjrh has left

  60. jjrh has left

  61. daniel has joined

  62. jere has joined

  63. daniel has left

  64. daniel has joined

  65. jjrh has left

  66. mrkiko has left

  67. mrkiko has joined

  68. lskdjf has joined

  69. jjrh has left

  70. daniel has left

  71. daniel has joined

  72. la|r|ma has left

  73. jjrh has left

  74. arc has left

  75. arc has joined

  76. uc has joined

  77. moparisthebest

    can, or should I say do, any XEPs define new stanzas ?

  78. daniel has left

  79. daniel has joined

  80. efrit has left

  81. SamWhited

    moparisthebest: no, and no. You can define payloads to be transmitted in existing stanzas or new unroutable top level elements, but not new routable stanzas with their own delivery semantics.

  82. daniel has left

  83. daniel has joined

  84. moparisthebest

    that makes sense but I wasn't absolutely positive

  85. moparisthebest

    thanks SamWhited

  86. la|r|ma has left

  87. SamWhited has left

  88. SamWhited has left

  89. la|r|ma has joined

  90. SamWhited has left

  91. uc has left

  92. zinid has left

  93. zinid has joined

  94. waqas has joined

  95. daniel has left

  96. daniel has joined

  97. @Alacer has joined

  98. daniel has left

  99. daniel has joined

  100. daniel has left

  101. @Alacer has left

  102. daniel has joined

  103. waqas has left

  104. waqas has joined

  105. waqas has left

  106. daniel has left

  107. SamWhited has left

  108. zinid has left

  109. zinid has joined

  110. daniel has joined

  111. daniel has left

  112. daniel has joined

  113. daniel has left

  114. daniel has joined

  115. @Alacer has left

  116. @Alacer has joined

  117. daniel has left

  118. nyco has left

  119. daniel has joined

  120. nyco has joined

  121. @Alacer has left

  122. @Alacer has joined

  123. ralphm has joined

  124. valo has left

  125. valo has joined

  126. Tobias has left

  127. Tobias has joined

  128. daniel has left

  129. daniel has joined

  130. daniel has left

  131. daniel has joined

  132. moparisthebest has joined

  133. zinid has left

  134. ralphm has joined

  135. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: if you define a new routable stanza type, you'll have to change all existing clients and servers

  136. uc has left

  137. uc has joined

  138. marc has joined

  139. daniel has left

  140. ralphm has joined

  141. Ge0rG has left

  142. tim@boese-ban.de has joined

  143. daniel has left

  144. daniel has left

  145. daniel has joined

  146. ralphm has joined

  147. tim@boese-ban.de has left

  148. Ge0rG has joined

  149. Kev has joined

  150. Steve Kille has left

  151. Steve Kille has joined

  152. ralphm has joined

  153. daniel has left

  154. daniel has joined

  155. daniel has left

  156. daniel has joined

  157. Kev has left

  158. efrit has joined

  159. jonasw has left

  160. daniel has left

  161. nyco has left

  162. nyco has joined

  163. daniel has left

  164. jubalh has joined

  165. Zash has joined

  166. Steve Kille has left

  167. ralphm has joined

  168. ralphm has joined

  169. jonasw

    daniel, please re-send the council minutes to standards@

  170. Kev has joined

  171. daniel has left

  172. nyco has left

  173. nyco has joined

  174. goffi has joined

  175. ralphm has joined

  176. valo has left

  177. valo has joined

  178. Tobias has joined

  179. Tobias has joined

  180. ralphm has joined

  181. @Alacer has left

  182. daniel has left

  183. daniel has joined

  184. Zash has left

  185. Zash has left

  186. Zash has left

  187. Zash has left

  188. Zash has left

  189. Zash has left

  190. Zash has left

  191. Zash has left

  192. @Alacer has joined

  193. dwd has joined

  194. efrit has left

  195. ralphm has joined

  196. @Alacer has left

  197. ralphm has left

  198. @Alacer has joined

  199. jubalh has left

  200. arc has left

  201. arc has joined

  202. arc has left

  203. arc has joined

  204. arc has left

  205. arc has joined

  206. Guus

    Fellow board members: I've mentioned this in mail last week, but didn't get any ack, so just in case it was missed: I won't be able to make todays meeting.

  207. ralphm has joined

  208. jcbrand has joined

  209. debacle has joined

  210. Ge0rG has left

  211. mimi89999 has left

  212. Ge0rG has left

  213. Ge0rG has left

  214. Zash has left

  215. lskdjf has joined

  216. daniel has left

  217. daniel has left

  218. daniel has joined

  219. Flow

    dwd: "I deliberately use a fixed resource string here because it makes debugging much easier.", so what do you think about bind 2.0 not allowing for that?

  220. dwd

    Flow, Pretty sure you know the answer to that. :-)

  221. daniel has left

  222. Zash

    Prosody doesn't initiate piggybacking, everything is weird

  223. Zash has left

  224. ralphm has joined

  225. Flow

    dwd: I can only guess. I still hope we could give clients the ability to provide a resource prefix when using bind 2.0

  226. jonasw

    I don’t see a use in a prefix. It can’t be used for addressing, which would be my main use-case for stable resources.

  227. Kev

    Flow / dwd: Except that the split resource thing actually means that in this case it's just as easy.

  228. Kev

    jonasw: Debugging is easier if you have friendly parts to the resource, at least.

  229. Flow

    jonasw, it's not about stable resources, but as debugging aid

  230. Flow

    Kev, didn't get that, sorry. It's just as easy was *what*?

  231. Kev

    It wasn't important.

  232. Flow

    Kev, It still would be nice to understand what you meant

  233. Kev

    I think that a resource of kev@isode/client1/{random} is as easy to debug as kev@isode/client1 in terms of grepping and following logs. While kev@isode/{random} does definitely make it difficult.

  234. Kev

    Or more difficult, anyway.

  235. Kev

    My bind2 plan is still the split-resource thing we discussed at the summit, to allow for this.

  236. Ge0rG

    But what was discussed at the summit is `kev@isode/{random}/{morerandom}`, which is just crazy.

  237. Guus

    I think what was discussed was `kev@isode/{freeform-butpredictable}/{random}

  238. Ge0rG

    I'm pretty sure the consensus was kev@isode/{client-generated-uuid}/{server-generated-uuid} with a strong implication of those horrible 128-bit-hex-blobs

  239. dwd

    I have to admit I'm worried that all jids will now begin "kev@isode".

  240. dwd


  241. Ge0rG

    dwd: the double-UUID namespace would allow for a conflict-less mapping of all XMPP users onto kev@isode, at least.

  242. Guus

    you can't have enough Kevs.

  243. jonasw

    Guus, the proper way to add me to Summit is to simply edit the wiki page?

  244. dwd

    But anyway. I understand that there is benefit in some implementations to enforce a server-written portion of the resource. I don't think this benefit is applicable to all implementations.

  245. Guus

    Ge0rG: I was under the impression that we discussed a combination of a human-recognizable identifier (for easy debugging/grepping), and a random part (to prevent predictable full jids). But then again, I'm enjoying the sight of a new castle every 7 seconds or so.

  246. goffi has left

  247. jonasw

    (Guus: this is the wiki page I’m talking about: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 )

  248. Guus

    jonasw: and show up in Brussels. :)

  249. jonasw

    well, yes

  250. dwd

    And right now, I'm more concerned about fragile clients and misbehaving servers when trying to join chatrooms.

  251. Ge0rG

    Guus: I'm solving that for many years now by using `"yaxim.%08x" % uint.random()`

  252. Guus

    jonasw: there's a MUC and a mailinglist you might want to subscribe to.

  253. Ge0rG

    dwd: welcome to MUC hell.

  254. jonasw

    Guus, URIs?

  255. jonasw

    (ugh, yet-another-MUC, I’m running out of tabs!)

  256. Guus


  257. Guus


  258. Guus

    summit@xmpp.org for the mailing list.

  259. jonasw


  260. dwd

    Ge0rG, Well, the actual bug here is in S2S routing, not in MUC per se.

  261. jonasw

    Guus, is there a recommended check-in/check-out date if one wants to participate in the Summit?

  262. jonasw

    like, "latest recommended check-in, earliest possible check-out to get all of summit"

  263. jonasw

    e.g. would it be sufficient to arrive on the 1st, or is that too close?

  264. jonasw

    same for checkout

  265. ralphm has joined

  266. daniel has left

  267. Ge0rG

    dwd: I'm sure that the problem is triggered by s2s issues, but it's still a shortcoming of the MUC protocol

  268. Guus

    jonasw: having attended only once, I'm not much of an expert, but last year, the summit was two full days. From the Netherlands, I arrived in the morning, and was able to attend the entire day, then spent four days to also be able to visit FOSDEM. I think I travelled back on Monday, to catch all of FOSDEM.

  269. jonasw

    I see

  270. Guus

    jonasw: maybe take further questions to summit@ ? :)

  271. jonasw

    soooo maaaany muuucs :)

  272. jonasw

    but sure

  273. jcbrand has left

  274. arc has left

  275. arc has joined

  276. la|r|ma has joined

  277. ralphm has joined

  278. dwd

    Ge0rG, What's the shortcoming? If traffic is dropped due to a bug, and a client relies on perfect network conditions, then I think blaming the protocol is a little excessive.

  279. dwd

    Ge0rG, Not saying I think MUC is perfect, but I don't think it's the MUC protocol at fault in this instance.

  280. Ge0rG

    dwd: the MUC protocol lacks provisions to test whether the client is still connected and to restore connectivity. The existing workarounds are very complicated and unreliable

  281. lumi has joined

  282. dwd

    Ge0rG, Sure. But the sequence I showed occured on initial client connect. The client *knows* that it's disconnected from the chatroom (the MUC might not, but we have a simple atomic solution there).

  283. sonny has left

  284. sonny has joined

  285. Ge0rG

    dwd: in that case I'm going to read your mail now

  286. la|r|ma has joined

  287. ralphm has joined

  288. tux has joined

  289. lumi has left

  290. goffi has joined

  291. Ge0rG has joined

  292. daniel has left

  293. Ge0rG has left

  294. Neustradamus has left

  295. goffi has left

  296. goffi has joined

  297. Syndace has left

  298. Syndace has joined

  299. ralphm has joined

  300. daniel has left

  301. daniel has left

  302. daniel has left

  303. ralphm has joined

  304. daniel has left

  305. Holger has left

  306. daniel has left

  307. pep. has left

  308. lumi has joined

  309. jcbrand has left

  310. daniel has left

  311. jcbrand has joined

  312. daniel has left

  313. daniel has left

  314. Ge0rG has left

  315. ralphm has joined

  316. daniel has left

  317. daniel has left

  318. daniel has left

  319. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  320. ralphm bangs gavel

  321. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  322. nyco


  323. ralphm

    Hi! Who do we have?

  324. nyco


  325. ralphm

    MattJ, Guus, Martin?

  326. Guus

    ralphm: in absent as announced

  327. nyco

    Guus said he can't be there

  328. MattJ


  329. ralphm

    I missed that

  330. ralphm has joined

  331. daniel has left

  332. jjrh has left

  333. ralphm

    So we are lacking two. I am a bit worried about appointing a Chair for this Board's term. Since we haven't been complete since the start of the term, we haven't been able to do this, and we have to figure out how to resolve this. I don't think hoping we are complete a next meeting is a good strategy. Ideas welcome

  334. Kev

    Ask for volunteers on-list. Vote at the next meeting. Anyone missing has 7 days to vote.

  335. jcbrand has left

  336. Alex has joined

  337. Kev

    Ideally in the new year, in case people are going to be absent due to the holidays.

  338. Kev

    But something like this :)

  339. MattJ

    Yeah, I'd be fine with that

  340. ralphm

    Ok, I'll draft an e-mail about this

  341. nyco

    let's schedule a dedicated meeting, specifically for this, at an agreed time & date

  342. ralphm

    nyco: we do. It is called a board meeting

  343. nyco

    I mean at a different time

  344. nyco

    one that is specific, short, dedicated, efficient

  345. ralphm

    come on, we tried to agree upon a date for the last few meetings and didn't get everyone to respond (in time)

  346. ralphm

    These meetings were short (30min) and efficient.

  347. MattJ

    Yeah, this is the time and day that everyone agreed on

  348. ralphm

    Ok. Given the rest of the agenda and the lack of 2 people, I suggest we adjourn.

  349. ralphm

    I'll send that e-mail and we meet in +1

  350. ralphm


  351. MattJ


  352. MattJ

    Thanks ralphm

  353. jmpman has joined

  354. ralphm bangs gavel

  355. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  356. stefandxm has left

  357. daniel has left

  358. daniel has left

  359. jcbrand has joined

  360. jmpman has joined

  361. daniel has left

  362. jjrh has left

  363. jjrh has left

  364. daniel has left

  365. jjrh has left

  366. lovetox has joined

  367. moparisthebest has joined

  368. daniel has left

  369. daniel has left

  370. daniel has left

  371. daniel has left

  372. daniel has left

  373. daniel has left

  374. daniel has left

  375. daniel has left

  376. daniel has left

  377. lskdjf has left

  378. lskdjf has joined

  379. daniel has left

  380. jmpman has joined

  381. Ge0rG has joined

  382. daniel has left

  383. jmpman has joined

  384. daniel has left

  385. stefandxm has joined

  386. daniel has left

  387. daniel has left

  388. Ge0rG has joined

  389. Ge0rG has left

  390. Ge0rG has joined

  391. daniel has left

  392. daniel has joined

  393. dwd

    Martin's ill. Or as he put it this morning, developing a closer relationship with the toilet. Sorry, should have passed that on.

  394. Zash

    Question: Why does the new board and council go "live" right after elections?

  395. nyco has left

  396. Guus

    Zash: the bylaws state that an elected official holds office until a successor has been appointed (paraphrased).

  397. Guus

    I don't know why that was put in.

  398. Guus

    Having more procedure would add complexity. If there's benefit to it, I'd be open to changes.

  399. Guus

    why are you asking?

  400. remko has joined

  401. Zash

    Wondering about having a transition period to ease handoff.

  402. Guus

    I'm not sure if it'd meaningfully ease things. The added complexity might outweigh it.

  403. Zash

    But suddenly I'm unsure if any of the orgs I've been involved had that or not.

  404. Guus

    (also, the current board differs with just one person from last years board - not sure if there is the need for much transitioning)

  405. jonasw

    dwd, ugh, I hope Martin gets well soon!

  406. Zash has left

  407. Alex has left

  408. Alex has joined

  409. Alex has left

  410. Alex has joined

  411. jubalh has left

  412. jmpman has joined

  413. Kev

    I don't think you need concurrent or delayed responsibilities to do handover.

  414. Kev

    It's not like a job where you leave the building.

  415. Alex has left

  416. jmpman has joined

  417. efrit has joined

  418. jere has joined

  419. ralphm has left

  420. ralphm has joined

  421. jcbrand has left

  422. jcbrand has joined

  423. jmpman has joined

  424. jmpman has joined

  425. daniel has left

  426. daniel has left

  427. arc has left

  428. arc has joined

  429. arc has left

  430. arc has joined

  431. jubalh has joined

  432. jcbrand has left

  433. ralphm has left

  434. Ge0rG has joined

  435. goffi has left

  436. daniel has left

  437. dwd

    Kev, I have pondered, in the past, suggesting that we stagger elections though, to try and maintain some sort of continuity. But not enough to actually propose anything concrete.

  438. nyco has left

  439. efrit has left

  440. daniel has left

  441. Zash

    Like, elect half the board at a time?

  442. Ge0rG

    We have that process with the XSF Membership.

  443. sonny has left

  444. sonny has joined

  445. sonny has joined

  446. sonny has joined

  447. Tobias

    we do indeed

  448. daniel has left

  449. sonny has left

  450. sonny has joined

  451. Ge0rG has joined

  452. sonny has joined

  453. sonny has joined

  454. jcbrand has joined

  455. jcbrand has left

  456. jcbrand has joined

  457. jere has joined

  458. @Alacer has left

  459. jcbrand has left

  460. moparisthebest

    it wouldn't be bad to kind of interleave them with member votes, that would actually bring number of votes per year down

  461. moparisthebest

    like we vote for members 4 times a year, we could vote for council/board 2 of those times also

  462. Ge0rG

    but then we only vote for half the board.

  463. Ge0rG

    the process will be... challenging

  464. moparisthebest


  465. @Alacer has joined

  466. daniel has left

  467. sezuan has joined

  468. Alex has joined

  469. sezuan has left

  470. sezuan has joined

  471. nyco

    2.5 humans?

  472. moparisthebest

    I think we could divide it sanely :P

  473. tux has left

  474. Guus

    I'm not opposed to any of this, but I'm not seeing real benefit either.

  475. jubalh has left

  476. jcbrand has joined

  477. tux has left

  478. lumi has joined

  479. daniel has left

  480. Alex has left

  481. nyco

    well, refreshing half the team mid-term is a good practice, generally given we are short on resource and engagement, that would generate onboarding overhead

  482. nyco has left

  483. ralphm has left

  484. ralphm has left

  485. jubalh has joined

  486. ralphm has joined

  487. Tobias has joined

  488. SamWhited has joined

  489. Kev has left

  490. jubalh has left

  491. Tobias has left

  492. jcbrand has left

  493. Tobias has joined

  494. Tobias has left

  495. Tobias has joined

  496. daniel has left

  497. vanitasvitae has left

  498. vanitasvitae has joined

  499. ralphm has joined

  500. daniel has left

  501. marc has left

  502. marc has left

  503. jjrh has left

  504. jjrh has left

  505. daniel has left

  506. jjrh has left

  507. jjrh has left

  508. @Alacer has left

  509. zinid has left

  510. Alex has joined

  511. jjrh has left

  512. jjrh has left

  513. jjrh has left

  514. jjrh has left

  515. daniel has left

  516. daniel has left

  517. daniel has left

  518. tux has joined

  519. daniel has left

  520. SouL has joined

  521. zinid has left

  522. sonny has left

  523. sonny has joined

  524. sezuan has left

  525. tux has joined

  526. ralphm has joined

  527. tux has joined

  528. jubalh has joined

  529. tux has left

  530. arc has left

  531. arc has joined

  532. jubalh has left

  533. arc has left

  534. arc has joined

  535. daniel has left

  536. jjrh has left

  537. tux has joined

  538. pep. has joined

  539. ralphm has joined

  540. jjrh has left

  541. daniel has left

  542. ralphm has joined

  543. jere has joined

  544. daniel has left

  545. jjrh has left

  546. arc has left

  547. arc has joined

  548. zinid has left

  549. arc has left

  550. arc has joined

  551. tux has joined

  552. jjrh has left

  553. jubalh has joined

  554. ralphm has joined

  555. tux has joined

  556. sonny has left

  557. sonny has joined

  558. ralphm has joined

  559. efrit has joined

  560. jubalh has left

  561. remko has left

  562. ralphm has left

  563. jjrh has left

  564. Zash has left

  565. moparisthebest has joined

  566. ralphm has joined

  567. jere has joined

  568. arc has left

  569. arc has joined

  570. SamWhited has left

  571. lovetox has left

  572. arc has left

  573. arc has joined

  574. ralphm has left

  575. arc has left

  576. arc has joined

  577. Alex has left

  578. ralphm has joined

  579. ralphm has left

  580. ralphm has joined

  581. lskdjf has left

  582. lskdjf has left

  583. uc has joined

  584. lskdjf has left

  585. lskdjf has left

  586. uc has joined

  587. uc has joined

  588. Tobias has left

  589. uc has joined

  590. uc has joined

  591. lskdjf has left

  592. Alex has joined

  593. lskdjf has joined

  594. uc has joined

  595. lskdjf has left

  596. lskdjf has left

  597. marc has joined

  598. uc has joined

  599. pep. has left

  600. uc has joined